alt.atheism	re about the bible quiz answers in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes the cheribums are on the ark of the covenant when god said make no graven image he was refering to idols which were created to be worshipped the ark of the covenant wasn t wrodhipped and only the high priest could enter the holy of holies where it was kept once a year on the day of atonement i am not familiar with or knowledgeable about the original language but i believe there is a word for idol and that the translator would have used the word idol instead of graven image had the original said idol so i think you re wrong here but then again i could be too i just suggesting a way to determine whether the interpretation you offer is correct dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu clam bake timmons writes fallacy atheism is a faith lo i hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you re correct you didn t say anything about a conspiracy correction hard atheism is a faith yes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that i will not explain this to you again stalin did nothing in the name of atheism whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant get a grip man the stalin example was brought up not as an indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will kill others under any name that s fit for the occasion no look again while you never said it the implication is pretty clear i m sorry but i can only respond to your words not your true meaning usenet is a slippery medium deleted wrt the burden of proof so hard atheism has nothing to prove then how does it justify that god does not exist i know there s the faq etc but guess what if those justifications were so compelling why aren t people flocking to hard atheism they re not and they won t i for one will discourage people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable statements on hard atheism look i m not supporting any dogmatic position i d be a fool to say that in the large group of people that are atheists no people exist who wish to proselytize in the same fashion as religion how many hard atheists do you see posting here anyway maybe i mm just not looking hard enough second what makes you think i m defending any given religion i m merely recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith i never meant to do so although i understand where you might get that idea i was merely using the bible example as an allegory to illustrate my point and yes by we i am referring to every reader of the post where is the evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon evidence for what who i think i may have lost this thread why theists are arrogant deleted because they say such and such is absolutely unalterably true because my dogma says it is true i am not prepared to issue blanket statements indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists bzzt by virtue of your innocent little pronoun they you ve just issued a blanket statement at least i will apologize by qualifying my original statement with hard atheist in place of atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he that s what many christians do today how is that in itself arrogant guilty as charged what i meant to say was the theists who are arrogant are this way because they say other than that i thought my meaning was clear enough any position that claims itself as superior to another with no supporting evidence is arrogant thanks for your apology btw i m not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down of they the theists your serious misinformation shines through explained above bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking the times august so let s see if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so is that it gregg you haven t provided even a title of an article to support your contention this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it gregg any questions and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass what s your excuse this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job you also have no reason to believe it is an anti islamic slander job apart from your own prejudices i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank why yes what s a mere report in the times stating that bcci followed islamic banking rules gregg knows islam is good and he knows bcci were bad therefore bcci cannot have been islamic anyone who says otherwise is obviously spreading slanderous propaganda if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc i see if someone wants to provide references to articles you agree with you will also respond with references to articles you agree with mmm yes that would be a very intellectually stimulating debate doubtless that s how you spend your time in soc culture islam i ve got a special place for you in my kill file right next to bobby want to join him the more you post the more i become convinced that it is simply a waste of time to try and reason with moslems is that what you are hoping to achieve mathew
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article t rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment ha ha ha sorry but having studied cell biology i have to say that i can see it through an electron microscope therefore it is real is a laughable statement stuff deleted thank you i thought i was in the twilight zone for a moment it still amazes me that many people with science backgrounds still confuse the models and observables with what even they would call the real world jim halat in article ursa bear com halat panther bears jim halat writes in article apr princeton edu datepper phoenix princeton edu david aaron tepper writes you were a liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon i forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren t see the difference just for the record not that any kind of information would be likely to affect your thinking i have an msee focus in electromagnetics from penn a photo of the smallest logo in the world does not an atom make what was observed is something we can measure that matches what the mathematical model we call an atom had predicted much in the same way that we need both a particle model and a wave model for light the atomic model is a mathematical representation of physical phenomena a model that can and probably will continue to change over time that makes it subjective the model that is however the model gives us an objective way to talk about the physical world to put it another way the quantum mechanical model of the atom allows for discussion of the atom that will give repeatable and unambiguous results which is objective however as bohr and einstein duked it out mid century the interpretation of those reapeatable observable measurements is quite subjective bohr said that the observable randomness of atomic motion was inherent in the nature of the universe einstein said particle motion was deterministic but it was our measurement shortcomings that introduced the randomness they were talking about the exact same results though jim halat
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes as much faith as theism admit it some people might think it takes faith to be an atheist but faith in what does it take some kind of faith to say that the great invisible pink unicorn does not exist does it take some kind of faith to say that santa claus does not exist if it does and it may for some people i suppose it certainly isn t as big a leap of faith to say that these things and god do exist i suppose it depends on your notion and definition of faith besides not believing in a god means one doesn t have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with it for years i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it s important however trying to force a psychological fantasy i don t mean that in a bad way but that s what it really is on someone else who isn t interested is extremely rude what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my belief in santa did wonderful things for my life making me a better person allowing me to live without guilt etc and then tried to get you to believe in santa too just cuz he did so much for me you d call the men in white coats as soon as you could get to a phone bake timmons iii nanci just babbling if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu spring is nature s way of saying let s party
alt.atheism	southern baptist convention freemasonry with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx the inside cover of the book states mission ministry to men inc hereby grants permission for the reproduction of part or all of this booklet with two provisions one the material is not changed and two the source is identified i have followed these provisions freemasonry is one of the allies of the devil page iv the issue here is not moderate or conservative the issue is god and the devil page vi it is worthwhile to remember that the formulators of public school education in america were freemasons page jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page he jesus christ established the most sectarian of all possible faiths page for narrowness and sectarianism there is no equal to the lord jesus christ page what seems so right in the interest of toleration and its cousins liberty equality and fraternity is actually one of the subtlest lies of the father of lies page the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded in the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated by the lodge each of these churches should hold public ceremonies of repentance and of praying the blood and the name of the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken at the dedication of the church and or building page tony
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article madhausc rfqo ql netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor sorry gotta disagree with you on this one maddi not the resemblence to bill the nickname i prefer half bake d timmons bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re requests in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes bob if you re wanting an excuse to convert to christianity you gonna have to look elsewhere damn and i did so have my hopes up bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes as i know you can t get any physical problems by passive christianity unlike smoking it s not that hard to avoid christianity today anyway just ignore em right on keith err kent whadda you mean you didn t see the smiley bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and in article qvn pinnj shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes when the various bill conners and bobbys post here i felt that their passive aggressive knock that chip off my shoulder type of approach meant that attempts at reasoned argument would be wasted i still think that however while more primitive responses teasing bronx cheers sarcasm are somewhat satisfying apologies to anyone who still thinks bobby is a performance artist some of them feed in to a pointless circular round of ad hominem name calling witness precisely my position as a newbie i tried the point by point approach to debate with these types it wasted both my time and my lifespan ignoring them is not an option since they don t go away and doing so would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this group what s left healthy flaming i m sure on occassion i ve appeared to be little more than a caustic boob to some of the bobby types but why waste breath arguing with someone whose most rational though process involves his excretory system and i stand by my record of recognizing these people long before most of the rest of the group so let s see what this timmons character has in store for us bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you first i don t expect them to love me if they don t even know i exist secondly i wouldn t expect them to love me simply because they were my creator i would expect to have to earn that love the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself are you daft how do i love something i don t believe exists come back when you ve learned to love your third testicle those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know at which point you have stepped over the line and become a complete asshole even though it s your first offense i won t let it slip becuase i ve heard it too goddamned many times you love jesus because deep in your heart you re a cannibalistic necrophiliac because i say so and i m much more qualified to assess your motivations than you are fortunately there are some things i get to accept on evidence rather than faith one of them being that until christians like yourself quit being so fucking arrogant there will never be peace you ve all made sure of that bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb b ca i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article qv q fn horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism correlation is not causation and a belief that absolutes exist is not the same thing as a belief in absolutes any more than belief in a shortest route from thurles to clonmel is the same thing as a knowledge of the irish roadsystem correlation is not necessarily causation however as you might have noticed the above allows to conclude that the correlation between religion and fanatism is based on common features of religious belief sorry for the long quotes but i dont see where to cut huh are you barking mad hardly theism is not as strongly correlated with fanaticism as you say plus you could find stronger correlations if you were actually interested in the truth instead of being as you seeming are a bigot theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn stuff deleted actually you get a ton of weapons and ammunition followers and hole up in some kind of compound and wait for alan a deguzman calvin i m so smart it s almost scary i guess calculus mathematica i m a child progeny disclaimer the university can t afford my opinions hobbes most children are
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes james hogan writes fine sentiments from his very first post jim assumed an attack of ad hominem sarcastic innuendo i e shit to be shoveled he conveniently forgets this of course and then whines about his boredom ad hominem sarcastic innuendo absolutely forgotten hardly bored not really i try not to confuse life on a a with life i just can t overcome the urge to tease taunt folks who bound faq less onto a a with such a chip on their shoulder to listen to you one might think we belonged to some church i appreciate the patience of others who questioned your posting on a line by line content basis though it s hard to know what impact that might have had as compared to say shovelling fact if he were truly interested in ending the thread he wouldn t have posted his last shit to be shoveled i think i only lamented that whatever the initial satisfactions past a certain point circular abuse heaping was just that bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky sincere questions why are you here what are you looking for jim
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok there are always some in the society who disagree with the mandates so which societal mandates make the standard for morality how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of so what should be the basis unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the feeling in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong awfully hard to defend though how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves i might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior i guess i m delving into a religious language area what exactly is morality or morals i never thought of eating meat to be moral or immoral but i think it could be how do we differentiate between not doing something because it is a personal choice or preference and not doing something because we see it as immoral do we fall to what the basis of these morals are also consensus positions fall to a might makes right or as you brought out if whatever is right is what is societally mandated then whoever is in control at the time makes what is right mc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you oh no not again there is a difference between believing that god exists and loving him for instance satan certainly believes god exists but does not love him what unbelievers request in situations like this is that god provide evidence compelling enough to believe he exists not to compel them to love him on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes hawaii we liberated it from spain well you were going well until you hit this one hawaii was an independent country a coup by americans led to a request to annex it the us refused but eventually did annex it several years later during the spanish american war on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you same old bullshit not being given to delusions and wishful thinking i do not have the option of either loving or obeying that which i have so reason to believe the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort more bullshit i assure you in my misguided youth i made a sincere effort it was very painful being a rational person raised in christian home many others could tell the same story you choose not to believe anyone s experience which contradicts your smug theories bill mayne
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality on me why can t i do what i want who are they to decide what if i disagree most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but it is being immoral in our opinion we don t let them choose we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense but have little basis for it as of yet how far can such a concept be extended and thus may be incapable of behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral we may judge him immoral by our standards do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him after all he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose on what basis do we condemn other societies besides here s the buzz words on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all societies holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer why not do we have to be objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re nicknames in article bb b fe i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes okay how about scott can anybody hear me sauyet ssauyet eagel wesleyan edu could you speak up i can t hear you my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote now what i am interested in is the original notion you were discussing on moral free agency that is how can a god punish a person for not believing in him when that person is only following his or her nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god dean i think you re letting atheist mythology great start i realize immediately that you are not interested in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me i would much prefer an answer from ms healy who seems to have a reasonable and reasoned approach to things say aren t you the creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about evolution some time ago confuse you on the issue of divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the entire human race and any punishment meted out would necessarily affect the entire race of which he was the sole representive all humans coming after him would being of the same race species share in that judgement it has nothing to do with who deserves what from the perspective of god humanity is but one category of created things and that category is condemned duh gee then we must be talking christian mythology now i was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable logical person but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition of the same boring mythology i ve seen a thousand times before i am deleting the rest of your remarks unless i spot something that approaches an answer because they are merely a repetition of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought at all i have to congratulate you though bill you wouldn t know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls such a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated attempts to assist you in learning which i have seen in this forum and others in the past speaks of a talent that goes well beyond my own meager abilities i just don t seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape my last response in this thread fell into a bit bucket and vanished though appearing locally i ll repost it since i always feel slighted when someone appears to ignore one of my postings in a conversational thread i don t want rob to think i m doing so since this is now dated however don t feel compelled to respond in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes i was making two separate points both of which attack face value bible interpretation to judge the bible s value today you judge it based on the way it is used today that is what do commentators actually say what do rabbis teach etc i suspect you meant this in context of the jewish tradition you have been referring to one problem with a highly interpreted tradition like this is what happens when a schism occurs and over time certain large and influential branches of the heretical group come to favor exactly a face value interpretation to judge the bible s value when originally written you a read it in the context of its time not with today s assumptions and b compare it to the practices of surrounding people while the context of the time is important value judgments must ultimately be according to current understanding or at least to some base standard relative stability success of a society e g this is obviously true in comparing it to practices of surrounding people for instance according to the bible the surrounding people were immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits we need to look rather at what those peoples were really like for instance in what way is it better to worship a single god whose presence is symbolically strongest in a tent or temple over multiple gods some of whose presence is symbolically represented in a statue by the bible s own terms idolatry is inherently evil but i see no evidence that the followers of the various other religions of the area and time were particularly bad people relative to the people in the bible scissors and cloth now in the past our ancestors did cut cloth with scissors but they at least knew that their inhumane neighbors cut it with their bare teeth so this was a relatively enlightened step forward from their earlier barbarism and made the transition to modern civilized paper cutting that much easier sounds good but it presupposes teeth rending neighbors which i see no support for one can argue that post facto assertion of inhumane neighbors can be used to make moral points but that doesn t mean that the actual neighbors really were inhuman more to the point such dehumanization of the people across the river or over the mountain or even of a different people dwelling among us is all too common that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic interpretations of that history is interesting but i still don t think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it to attack condemnation of the original history note that i m speaking of historical interpretation here for instance claiming that hammurabi s an eye for an eye was primitive brutal retribution while moses version was an enlightened benign fine because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way as of years ago or so they probably both meant the same thing to be sure i m arguing from a parochial perspective i belong to this tiny tribe which has struggled against overwhelming odds for survival as a distinct tribe and this book is the book of my tribe the book commands us to dedicate ourselves to study to improve the world and to set an example as a light to the nations we ve revered the book and i think we ve been successful as scientists as artists and musicians as leaders in important humanitarian causes it s hard for me to separate the success of my people from the virtue of our book you d have to argue that we d have done significantly better with a different book or with no book or that another tribe with a different book or with no book has done significantly better i don t belittle the accomplishments particularly the intellectual ones of the jewish people i have given up on trying to think by analogy since i don t know of any other tribe that is at all similar the closest i can think of are the romany but i don t know enough about them to make a meaningful comparison i think a tradition of reflective study of flexible rather than dogmatic interpretation is a good thing i think that with such an attitude a case could be made that you could have done as well starting with a captain america comic or whatever the babylonian equivalent would have been jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re satanic verses once again this posting has been delayed for about a week by falling between some software cracks in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes as promised here is rafiq zakaria s discussion of the nature of the so called satanic verses from which rushdie s title has been taken rafiq zakaria muhammad and the quran penguin here follows an introduction to the controversial incident and an apologetic explanation purporting to show why it couldn t actually have happened the historicity of the episode doesn t matter to what follows i don t know whether i m quoting gregg or zakaria below anyway back to current affairs rushdie has by his own admission drawn on the version given by the orientalist watt among others this incident is not something rushdie or watt or anyone else dug up from nowhere it is a well known story a myth if you will known according to umar khan to every muslim school boy and girl and so presumably to rushdie and to gibreel farishta and then allowed his imagination to run wild yes this is what writing fiction is all about rushdie was writing about a crisis of faith and chose this myth to present it by placing the actor gibreel in the role of the angel whose name he took rushdie was not writing a history or theology book and nowhere claims or implies that this is what actually happened it s somewhat like stories woven around the relationship between jesus and the reformed prostitute mary magdalene another myth or those referring to the arthurian mythos or the grail legend or the wandering jew or dozens of others if you can stand to read the work of a blasphemer consider salman rushdie s children s book haroun and the sea of stories for an idea of the way a storyteller a specific storyteller works with existing story lines to ridicule muhammad s integrity no muhammad s mahound s integrity is not really impugned in this part of the story and there s no reason to think this was rushdie s intent gibreel as the archangel produces the verses divine and satanic though he doesn t know their provenance it is not implied in a straight reading that muhammad influences them not my voice i d never know such words i m no classy speaker never was never will be but this isn t my voice it s a voice mahound s eyes open wide he s seeing some kind of vision staring at it oh that s right gibreel remembers me he s seeing me my lips moving being moved by what whom don t know can t say nevertheless here they are coming out of my mouth up my throat past my teeth the words being god s postman is no fun yaar butbutbut god isn t in this picture god knows whose postman i ve been it s ambiguous is mahound somehow manipulating gibreel is it satan or something else the answer is not given to be sure the question is raised this novel explores faith and the role of revelation in religion among other things addressing loss of faith implicitly raises questions about the truth of revelation but this novel proposes no answers at least not directly the very existence of a newsgroup named alt atheism raises the same questions more forcefully and does propose some answers which is the real relevance if rushdie s mild fictional exploration is filth and lies and he asked for what he got are we next on the fatwa list that s a rhetorical question of course jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured another article that fell between the cracks in article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes as evidence for the resurrection it is often claimed that the disciples were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now i skimmed acts and such and i found a reference to this happening to stephen but no others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from is there any evidence outside the bible is there any evidence in the bible i sure haven t found any briefly no there is widespread folklore but no good documentary evidence or even solid rumor concerning the deaths of the apostles further the usual context of such arguments as you observe is no martyrs for a lie i e the willingness of these people to die rather than recant is evidence for the truth of their belief this adds the quite stronger twist that the proposed martyrs must have been offered the chance of life by recanting since we don t even know how or where they died we certainly don t have this information by the way even in the case of stephen it is not at all clear that he could have saved himself by recanting the willingness of true believers to die for their belief be it in jesus or jim jones is well documented so martyrdom in and of itself says little see kings for a biblical account of the martyrdom of priests of baal jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses another one rescued from the bit bucket over the years the furor over this book has been discussed on a a and elsewhere on the net generally the discussion comes down to the contention on the one hand that tsv contains such blood libel against islam as to merit if not death than at least banning and probably some sort of punishment and on the other that rushdie particularly as a non muslim in a western country had every right to write and publish whatever he chose regardless of whether some muslims find it offensive without fear of persecution or death i am naturally inclined to the latter position but find myself in an interesting position because i think this is a fine book only incidentally concerned with islam and moreover i m damned if i can find anything malevolently offensive in it over the years when i have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called it such things as filth and lies i would rank rushdie s book with hitler s mein kempf or worse and so on unfortunately these comments are usually generalities and attempts to follow up by requesting explanations for what specifically is so offensive have met either with stony silence more generalizations or inaccurate or out of context references to the book which lead me to believe that few of them have actually read it corrections and attempts to discuss the text in context have been ignored anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape this response originally fell into a bit bucket i m reposting it just so bill doesn t think i m ignoring him in article c w pv jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes jim perry perry dsinc com wrote some stuff about biblical morality though bill s quote of me had little to do with what he goes on to say bill i m sorry to have been busy lately and only just be getting around to this apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism i think many of these are well addressed in the famous faq your generalisms are then misplaced atheism needn t imply materialism or the lack of an absolute moral system however i do tend to materialism and don t believe in absolute morality so i ll answer your questions how then can an atheist judge value an atheist judges value in the same way that a theist does according to a personal understanding of morality that i don t believe in an absolute one doesn t mean that i don t have one i m just explicit as in the line of postings you followed up that when i express judgment on a moral issue i am basing my judgment on my own code rather than claiming that it is in some absolute sense good or bad my moral code is not particular different from that of others around me be they christians muslims or atheists so when i say that i object to genocide i m not expressing anything particularly out of line with what my society holds if your were to ask why i think morality exists and has the form it does my answer would be mechanistic to your taste that a moral code is a prerequisite for a functioning society and that humanity probably evolved morality as we know it as part of the evolution of our ability to exist in large societies thereby achieving considerable survival advantages you d probably say that god just made the rules neither of us can convince the other but we share a common understanding about many moral issues you think you get it from your religion i think i get it and you get it from early childhood teaching that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction i think you ve been reading the wrong sort of comic books but in prying through the gobbledygook i basically agree with what you re saying i do believe that my mental reactions to stimuli such as god commanded the genocide of the canaanites is mechanistic but of course i think that s true of you as well my reaction has little to do with whether god exists or even with whether i think he does but if a god existed who commanded genocide i could not consider him good which is supposedly an attribute of god all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever hmm yes i think some heavy faq reading would do you some good i have as much place discussing values etc as any other person in fact i can actually accomplish something in such a discussion by framing the questions in terms of reason for instance it is clear that in an environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt to wipe each other out based on imagined divine commands then the quality of life will be generally poor so a system that fosters coexistence is superior if quality of life is an agreed goal an absolutist on the other hand can only thump those portions of a bible they happen to agree with and say this is good even if the act in question is unequivocally bad by the standards of everyone in the discussion the attempt to define someone or a group of people as excluded from discussion such that they cannot participate and their opinions given no weight whatsoever is the lowest form or reasoning ad hominem poisoning the well and presumably the resort of someone who can t rationally defend their own ideas of right wrong and the bible jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes hi i have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with a theist acquaintance he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintace was approximately years after the death of jesus you can tell your friend from me that i was in a publisher s warehouse one time and saw thousands of copies of the joy of cooking and every one of them was syllable perfect i have since sold all i own and become a follower of the joy of cooking the incident i mentioned convinced me once and for all that the joy of cooking is inspired by god and the one true path to his glory dean kaflowitz may the sauce be with you
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article qsum inng k shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes i think you ve missed the point take alt atheism for instance it s an exponent based anagram when fully extended it translates to dig tunnels deep store grain everywhere prepare for the coming struggle you ll no doubt recognize this as a quote from chairman mao thus i think you ll have to admit that atheists have a lot more up their sleeve than you might have suspected agnostics will be sent to the gulag under the mao atheist new order now where did i put my little red book or was that green jim if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote since this is alt atheism i hope you don t mind if we strongly disagree the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself indeed knock and it shall be opened to you dan why didn t this work i firmly believed in god for years but i eventually realised i was only deluding myself fearful to face the truth ultimately the only reason what kept me believing was the fear of hell the mental states i had sillily attributed to divine forces or devil s attempts to destroy my faith were nothing more than my imagination and it is easy to achieve the same mental states at will my faith was just learned fear in a disguise those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort god is demanding too much dan what was it i believed in for years if sincere effort is equivalent to active suspension of disbelief what it was in my case i d rather quit if god does not help me to keep the faith i can t go on besides i am concerned with god s morality and mental health does she really want us to believe in herself without any help revelations guidance or anything i can feel if she has created us why didn t she make the task any easier why are we supposed to love someone who refuses to communicate with us what is the point of eternal torture for those who can t believe i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality what else but reason i can use i don t have the spiritual means christians often refer to my conscience disagrees with the bible i don t even believe i have a soul i am fully dependent on my body indeed i am this body when it goes up with flames so does my identity god can entertain herself with copies of me if she wants to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not note that the gipu is also omnipotent omnipresent and loves just about everyone besides he and she is guiding every writer on this planet you and me and not just some people who write legendary stories years ago your god is just one aspect of his and her presence petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms in article v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes from a parallel thread much about definitions of bombs etc deleted aaaahhh tell me how many innocents were killed in concentration camps mm hmm now how many more were scheduled to enter concentration camps had they not been shut down because they were captured by the allies mm hmm now civilians died in that war so no matter what you do civilians die what is the proper course don t sell the bastard arms and information in the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who do especially if they re in positions of power mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein so it s really not the gulf war you abhor so much it was the u s s and the west s shortsightedness in selling arms to hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right if so then i agree more deleted mathew regards jim b
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon i think that the transcedental temptation by paul kurtz has a good section on the origins of mormonism you might want to look at scott o
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes from timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons subject amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt some big deletions many atheists show a poor understanding of human nature so many people who would otherwise sympathize with their cause only shake their heads in disbelief at such childish ranting another in a string of idiotic generalizations gad i m surprised i got this far down in the post i guess some just like seeing their names up on a crt like me phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
alt.atheism	re where are they now perhaps it s prophetic that the week where are they now appears and i can claim to be a still active old timer my news software gets bit rot and ships outgoing articles into a deep hole somewhere anyway here s a repost in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind these days you don t have to fall far behind last monday admittedly after a long weekend but i had messages just in those few days aside from a hiatus while changing jobs last fall i ve been here since has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge inquiring minds want to know also does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt atheism end up once they leave the newsgroup just curious i guess hell norway the rubber room at the funny farm seminary it is not given to us to know jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god there was a thread on this earlier but i didn t get the outcome adam no nickname cooper adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest sadly understandable faith and dogma are dangerous yes religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma and for that reason i scorn religion to be fair you should really qualify this as semitic western religions but you basically go ahead and do this later on anyway i have expressed this notion in the past some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma again this should really be evaluated at a personal level for example there was only one jesus presumably and he probably didn t say all that many things and yet seemingly billions and billions of christian sects have arisen perhaps there is one that is totally dedicated to rationalism and believes in christ as in pantheism it would seem to go against the bible but it is amazing what people come up with under the guise of personal interpretation a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion this is a good point we have here the quintessential christian he sets up a system of values beliefs for himself which work very well and every event experience is understandable and deablable within the framework of this system however we also have an individual who has the inability at least not without some difficulty to change which is important because the problem with such a system is the same as with any system one cannot be open minded to the point of testing hypotheses against the basic premise of the system without destroying whatever faith is invested therein unless of course all the tests fail in other words the fairer way would be to test and evaluate moralities without the bias responsibility of losing retaining a system i claimed that a christian philosopher is not a christian but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs no because if a person is free to go he is not a prisoner similarly if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma he is not a christian interesting but again when it seems to basically boil down to individual nuances although not always i will admit and probably it is the mass oriented divisions which are the most appalling it becomes irrelevant unfortunately i admit it s a word game i m going by the dictionary definition of religion religion n concern over what exists beyond the visible world differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reason webster s now let s go beyond the word game i don t claim that religion causes genocide i think that if all humans were atheist there would still be genocide there will always be humans who don t think there will always be humans who don t ask themselves what is the real difference between themselves and people with different colored skin or a different language or different beliefs granted religion is like the gun that doesn t kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn t directly condemn people it encourages the use of just because thinking it is just because thinking that kills people in which case the people become the bullets and the religion as the gun merely offers them a way to more adequately do some harm with themselves if i may be so bold as to extend your similie sure religion has many good qualities it encourages benevolence and philanthropy ok so take out only the bad things like faith dogma and tradition put in the good things like careful reasoning and science the result is secular humanism wouldn t it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist to please the supernaturalists you might even leave god in there but the secular emphasis would cause the supernaturalists to start thinking and they too would realize that a belief in a god really doesn t put anyone further ahead in understanding the universe ok i m just poking fun at the supernaturalists also understandable of course not all humans are capable of thought and we d still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not as much i m willing to bet on that todd todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu department of computer science university of toronto best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim this is a very good point i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism so to answer your question the only way you can judge is by learning more about islam that is by reading the qur an and understanding it s basic principles once one has done this it is relatively easy to see who is following the principles of islam and who is acting in a way at odds with islam khomeini by attributing a superhuman status to twelve muslim historical leaders is at variance with one of basic principles of islam which is that no human being is metaphysically different than any other human being and in no sense any closer to god in metaphysical nature gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank seeing as i m spending my time responding to propaganda in responding to this little sub thread i really don t feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc but you must admit that this is a more thorough argument supporting a proposition than your it s propganda because i say so i hope you can see why we might not find this argument compelling if you want to refute a point then do so but do it right well again i am doing as much as the poster i was replying too i am quite busy and really don t have the time to respond in full scholarly form to every accusation that is flippantly made by someone who s being clearly antagonistic and have you ever considered that perhaps these people actually believe what they say that they are not just spreading propaganda i have considered it but if someone spreads falsehoods out of ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods those falsehoods generally do not come out of nowhere but are produced by people who know that what they are saying is at least not the whole truth i still consider such spreading of falsehoods propaganda on some level i m not in a position to say since i know nothing about the situation that does not in my estimation qualify me as having my head up my ass bob i never accused you of having your head up your ass it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass i was accusing the original poster benedikt i believe of being so impaired cheers gregg
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured the willingness of true believers to die for their belief be it in jesus or jim jones is well documented so martyrdom in and of itself says little it does say something about the depth of their belief religion has both deluded believers and con men the difference is often how far they will follow their beliefs i have no first hand or even second hand knowledge of how the original apostles died if they began a myth in hopes of exploiting it for profit and followed that myth to the death that would be inconsistent real con men would bail out when it was obvious it would lead to discomfort pain and death the story in kings regarding the prophets of baal is of no help in this debate one can easily assume that they believed that no overwhelming vindication of elijah would be forthcoming he was simply a fool who would be shown to be so the fire from heaven was swift and their seizure and deaths were equally swift
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c r c b unix portal com danb shell portal com dan e babcock writes in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim easy just read the koran because the koran is perfect there is no possibility of disagreement okay i see smilies so this isn t supposed to be a serious post on the other hand i would suppose it does has some motivation behind it apparently the idea is to poke fun at religion but there is presumably some sort of reasoning behind it as an argument this statement is worthless presuming the qur an is a perfect religious text whatever that might be there is still plenty of room for disagreement about its implications for issues far from essentials i ve already responded to the question of how a judgment might be made between two people who in fact do disagree about islam which doesn t presume anything about the qur an other than its having sufficient clarity for all important disputes about the basic principles of islam this hardly constitutes a claim that no two people could have disagreements about all issues relevant to islam gregg
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes from cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb subject societally acceptable behavior date mon apr gmt merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society how do they define what is acceptable how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position mac wow you got me thinking now this is an interesting question in that recently there has been a move in society to classify previously socially unacceptable yet legal activities as ok in the past it seems to me there were always two coexisting methods of social control first and most explicit is legal control that is the set of actions we define as currently illegal and having a specifically defined set of punishments secondly and somewhat more hidden is social control these are the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered by legal control are scrictly controled by social censure ideally if socialization is working as it should legal control is hardly ever needed since most people voluntarilly control their actions due to the pressure of social censure the control manifests itself in day to day life as guilt and morality i ve heard it said and fully believe that if it weren t for the vast majority of people policing themselves legal control would be absolutely impossible lately last years however there has been a move to attempt to dissengage the individual from societal control ie if it ain t illegal then don t pick on me i m not saying this is wrong merely that it is a byproduct of a society which has a high education level a high exposure to alternative ideas via the popular media a high level of institutionalized individual rights and a me oriented culture i guess what i m saying is that we appear to be in a state of transition here in the western world in that we still have many ideas about what we can can t allow people to do based entirely on personal squeamishness yet we are fully bent on maximizing individual freedoms to the max as long as those freedoms don t impinge on another s imho society is trying to persue two mutually exclusive ends here while we appreciate and persue individual rights these satisfy the old territoriality and dominance instincts the removal of socialized inherent fears based on ignorance will result in the continued destabilization of society i got no quick fix i have no idea how we can get ourselves out of this mess i know i would never consent to the roll back of personal freedoms in order to stabilize society yet i believe development of societies follow a darwinian process which selects for stability can we find a social model which maximizes indiv freed s yet is stable perhaps it is possible to live with a non stable society anybody see a way out comments ps therefore answer to question we don t do we want to phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists in article v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes don t sell the bastard arms and information in the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who do especially if they re in positions of power i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms their navy is entirely made of f ussr vessels their airforce not including stuff captured from kuwait which i am not as sure about doesn t include any us equipment their missiles are all non us their tanks are almost all soviet with about french tanks older ones the only us stuff in the iraqi arsenal is a few m s those were not sold to iraq iraq captured them from other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it now how did the us build up iraq again i just gave some fairly conclusive evidence that the us didn t sell arms to iraq information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it if you can provide some useful evidence that the us sold arms or valuable intelligence to iraq i am very interested but not if you just make claims based on what everyone knows mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic ve in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it i found it wonderful for some reason no flames please i was reminded of hemingway carl orff and van gogh not all at once though geoff arnold pc nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what if they made the whole thing up the great lie by four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world this can be avoided in at least two ways by leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they do not know what it is is either lying or so out of touch with humanity as to be undeserving of a reply if the good is undefined undefinable but you require of everyone that they know innately what is right you are back to subjectivism by defining the good solely in terms of evaluative terms ditto here an evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the part of the person making it at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder of course by denying that subject object is true dichotomy please explain how this helps i don t see your argument if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true if nothing then no moral judgements are true this is a thing that is commonly referred to as nihilism it entails that science is of no value irrepective of the fact that some people find it useful how anyone arrives at relativism subjectivism from this argument beats me this makes no sense either flew is arguing that this is where the objectivist winds up not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed in nothing except science materialism revolution and the people the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity and if those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion is not true likewise if the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion is not true why should one choose a set of preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism oh no reason this is patently absurd and also not the position of the subjectivist as has been pointed out to you already by others ditch the strawman already and see my reply to mike cobb s root message in the thread societal basis for morality david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re he has risen reply to kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan our lord and savior david keresh has risen he has been seen alive spread the word jeez can t he get anything straight i told him to wait for three days god david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	college atheists i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics reply to timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons the same kind of ignorance is demonstrated in just about every post in this newsgroup for instance generalizations about christianity are popular which newsgroup have you been reading the few anti christian posts are virtually all in response to some christian posting some you will all burn in hell kind of drivel i m a soft atheist courtesy of the faq but even i know enough about the bible to see that it repeatedly warns of false prophets preaching in the name of god bake it is transparently obvious that you are a theist pretending to be an atheist you probably think you are very clever but we see this all the time but the possibilities of creator and eternity carry with them too much emotional power to dismiss merely on the basis of this line but of course you have dismissed them because you are an atheist right just like any other religion hard atheism is a faith in other words you didn t read the faq after all david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and reply to jimh carson u washington edu james hogan so what s someone with a prediliction to shit shoveling to do when the latest i know what you atheists are about arrival on a a shows up ignore the bills bobbys bakes try to engage in reasonable discourse while flame fests have been among some of the most entertaining threads here other tugs of war with folks like bobby have grown old before their time i take the view that they are here for our entertainment when they are no longer entertaining into the kill file they go david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu half bake timmons writes maddi whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer maddi the mad sound o geek hausmann no no no i ve already been named by killfile keith my nickname is maddi never a useful post hausmann and don t you dare forget it half there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky you really should quote ivan karamazov instead on a a as he was the atheist maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political athei date tue apr from mathew mathew mantis co uk there s a great film called manufacturing consent noam chomsky and the media it s a canadian film i saw it at the berlin film festival this year if you get a chance go and see it i can t really recommend any books from having read them i m thinking of ordering a book which a reviewer claimed gives a good introduction to his political activism i could dig up the title mathew could it be the chomsky reader edited by james peck published by pantheon
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though i wasn t there at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he s doing what a cook off
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society society is the collection of individuals which will fall under self defined rules in terms of un decisions all the sets of peoples who are represented at the un are considered part of that society if we then look at us federal laws provided by representatives of purely us citizens then the society for that case would be the citizens of the us and so on how do they define what is acceptable acceptable are those behaviours which are either legislated for the society by representatives of that society or those behaviours which are non verbally and in effect non consciously such as picking your nose on the oprah winfrey show no one does it but there is no explicit law against doing it in many cases there are is no definition of whether or not a behaviour is acceptable but one can deduce these behaviours by observation how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position in an increasingly litigation mad society this trap is becoming exceedingly difficult to avoid with the infusion and strengthening of ethnic cultures in american and australian to bring in my local perspective culture the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may eventually become the definition of moral behaviour for instance some cultures dominant religion call for live sacrifice of domesticated animals most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent however is it moral according to the multicultural american society this kind of problem may only be definable by legislation obviously within any society there will be differences in opinion in what is acceptable behaviour or not and much of this will be due to different environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions one thing is for sure there is no universal moral code which will suit all cultures in all situations there may however be some globally accepted mores which can be agreed upon and instantiated as a globally enforcable concept the majority of mores will not be common until all peoples upon this earth are living in a similar environment if that ever happens jeff nonickname clark
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes from cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan subject re you will all go to hell date tue apr gmt in article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation arrgg another one of those another letter to the big guy dear god please take them back to heaven leave us rational intelligent people alone love meng the unenlightened one tan chade meng there is light at the end of the tunnel singapore cmtan iss nus sg it s an on coming train meng i have a better prayer dear god please save the world from the likes of these tammy
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c s zm e cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes from decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz subject re you will all go to hell date tue apr gmt in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf sunscreen i ll grab my bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough to you dean every a a poster is invited tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long from jbrown batman bmd trw com actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted us and allied action if some back water country took over some other back water country we probably wouldn t intervene not that we don t care but we can t be the world s policman or if a coup had occured in kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldn t have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to saudi arabia but the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion by a genocidal tyrant and the potential danger to the west s oil interests caused us to take action there are many indications that would have taken place had saddam been wanting or planning on going into saudi arabia there were none this has been openly stated by ex pentagon analysts pull from jbrown batman bmd trw com i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective actually reports from other mid east countries showed that hussein was ready to make concessions due to the sanctions we just didn t want him to we wanted to crush him as well as battle test all these high tech toys we ve built over the years from jbrown batman bmd trw com probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places we re also hypocrites of the first magnitude obviously we don t give a shit about freedom and democracy all we care about is our oil oh and the excuse now that the soviets are gone from the board to keep a sizable military presence in the gulf region care to make bets about when all our troops will come home basically saddam was ok with us he was a killer who tortured his own people used gas on them and other horrors he was a brutal dictator but he was our brutal dictator once he said fuck you to the us he became the next hitler the same for noriega he was a bastard but he was our bastard until he changed his mind and went his own way then we had to get rid of him david hunt graduate slave my mind is my own towards both a mechanical engineering so are my ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule v jewish homeland t h e r e i s n o g o d t h e r e i s n o g o d email bluelobster cmu edu working towards my piled higher and deeper it will be a great day when scientists and engineers have all the r d money they need and religions have to beg for money to pay the priest
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c s tv h news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide exactly although this may be a dissapointing answer there has to be an interplay of the two personal ethos and societal morality a person s self generated learned set of beliefs are usually expressed on a purely mental verbal level and don t usually find expression in society except in an impure not in the sense of bad state sometimes this has to be so who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok there are always some in the society who disagree with the mandates so which societal mandates make the standard for morality also what if one feels oneself to be part of more than one society in a very real sense to use the obvious example there is a political society and a racial society and a gender society and sometimes they do not always agree on every issue how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of so what should be the basis unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the feeling in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong awfully hard to defend though yes perhaps with an infamous do what you want so long as it doesn t hurt others the problem with this is that it is merely saying what you can do it is not a morality in that it doesn t propound any specifically preferred behaviours how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves i might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral i ll add a hearty me two however one could just as well say just because certain actions are moral does not make them legal one still doesn t really get an impression of which one is truly right mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c sa s news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes i guess i m delving into a religious language area what exactly is morality or morals i hope there is not one with a subject like this you just have a spiral what would then be a morality of a morality of morals labels don t make arguments one really needs a solid measuring stick by which most actions can be interpreted even though this would hardly seem moral for example the best thing for me is to ensure that i will eat and drink enough hence all actions must be weighed against this one statement whatever helps this goal is moral whatever does not is immoral of course this leads such a blank space there are so many different ways to fulfill a goal one would need a hyper morality to apply to just the methods i never thought of eating meat to be moral or immoral but i think it could be how do we differentiate between not doing something because it is a personal choice or preference and not doing something because we see it as immoral do we fall to what the basis of these morals are seems to me we only consider something moral or immoral if we stop to think about it long enough on the other hand maybe it is our first gut reaction which who knows perhaps here we have a way to discriminate morals i don t instinctively thing vegetarianism is right the same way i instinctively feel torture is wrong but if i thought about it long enough and listened to the arguments i could perhaps reason that it was wrong is that possible see the difference also consensus positions fall to a might makes right or as you brought out if whatever is right is what is societally mandated then whoever is in control at the time makes what is right mc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c sad dm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality on me why can t i do what i want who are they to decide what if i disagree well i agree with you in the sense that they have no moral right to inflict these rules but there is one thing i might add at the very least almost everybody wants to avoid pain and if that means sacrificing some stuff for a herd morality then so be it most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but it is being immoral in our opinion we don t let them choose we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them right and since they grew up and learned around us they have some idea of our right and wrong which i think must in part be incorporated very rarely do you see criminal behaviour for philosophical reasons for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense but have little basis for it as of yet how far can such a concept be extended stuff deleted do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him after all he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose on what basis do we condemn other societies besides here s the buzz words on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all societies holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer why not do we have to be objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf sunscreen i ll grab my bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough to you dean every a a poster is invited is there room for nudists after all if you believe most upstanding moral churches nudity is a sin my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart it is still incestuous adam what happened to my sig cooper
alt.atheism	test ignore test adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and anarchists in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes the line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed to imply that sorry been reading too much on the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some what is the clipper project btw the clipper initiative is an announcement by clinton that all the secure voice phones will use the same crypto chip as a de facto government standard problem is the government is admitting that they hold the keys to break the code easily and the justice department will be using the keys to listen in on illegal activities many people are really scared about such an initiative because it is a major step towards outlawing real crypto protection on things like email if you read the press release the project was developed by nsa and given to nist it uses two keys s and s that the government claims are needed to break the code they claim that these keys will be handed to two different companies and when they get a warrant to do a wiretap the chip is nicknamed the wiretap chip they have to get the keys from both companies people have poked holes through and through the press release official version and shown how it is nowhere near as nice as it sounds and i have given the simplified version people over on sci crypt are really scared about this proposal it seems mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish date tue apr gmt from r bruce rakes bruce cortex dixie com mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes i always thought that the pope was a bear you know because of that little saying does a bear shit in the woods is the pope catholic there must be some connection between those two lines and i always heard it is the bear catholic does the pope oh nevermind r bruce rakes software systems manager elekta instruments inc executive park w suite atlanta ga voice fax email bruce elekta com anyone from alabama knows it should be is the bear catholic does a pope shit in the woods the pope may not be a bear but the bear is a god paul bear bryant football coach god university of alabama
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest faith and dogma are dangerous religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma and for that reason i scorn religion i don t necessarily disagree with your assertion but i disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous if you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because of what happened in waco you are missing the point the branch davidians made the mistake of confusing the message with the messenger they believed koresh was a prophet and therefore believed everything he said the problem wasn t the religion it was the followers they didn t die because of faith and dogma they died because of their zealotry or in the case of the children the zealotry of their parents i have expressed this notion in the past some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma so christians are totally irrational irrational with respect to their religion only what are you saying one s belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational i think i know what you were getting at but i d rather hear you expand on the subject a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion again this statement is too general a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher and absolutely capable of changing his her mind faith in god is a belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which of course may show unfair bias when studying say religion i claimed that a christian philosopher is not a christian but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs no because if a person is free to go he is not a prisoner similarly if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma he is not a christian so christianity is a prison eh ever heard of parole you have read far too much into this subject a christian is one who follows the religion based on the teachings of a man named jesus christ nowhere does this definition imply that one cannot change one s mind in prison however you can t just decide to leave one is voluntary the other is not the two are not compatible religion is like the gun that doesn t kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn t directly condemn people it encourages the use of just because thinking it is just because thinking that kills people i prefer to think of religion as a water pistol filled with urine seriously though some but certainly not all religions do condemn groups of people the common target is the infidel a curious being who is alternately an atheist a non insert specific religious affiliation here a person of a different race or an egyptian please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more in your answer than waco of course not all humans are capable of thought and we d still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not as much i m willing to bet on that i ll see your conscientious peacenik and raise you a religious zealot with bad acne by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	church o satan was re islamic authority sic over women david rice ofa fidonet org writes who marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall what q kc dj csugrad cs vt edu km yeah hilarious satanists believe satan is a god but not km the only god satan is a part of christian mythology km therefore one cannot reasonably worship satan without km acknowledging the existence of a christian god satanists km see satan as their master and they see god and satan as km adversaries of similar power satanists believe in the km eventual overthrow of god and a transfer of all power to km their master kevin marshall a great many satanists do not believe in satan some do some don t i d go so far as to assert that most orthodox satanists do not worship satan church of satan etc but rather worship self to hear lavey say it only idiots and fools believe in satan and or allah he knew that suckers are born every minute maximus wb anton lavey s interpretation of satanism has always puzzled me i read his satanic bible a few years ago for a social studies project as well as a book by arthur lyons called the cult of devil worship in america the latter included a very interesting interview with the black pope in which he did indeed say that satan was merely an instrument for one to realize the self when i refer to satanism i am referring to the mishmash of rural satanic ritualism and witchcraft which existed before the church of satan i don t consider lavey s church to be at all orthodox nor do i consider its followers satanists lavey combined the philosophies of nietzsche crowley and reich slapped in some religious doctrine added a little touch of p t barnum and christened his creation the church of satan no doubt the title was a calculated attempt to attract attention i suppose he could have just as easily called it the church of free sex at any rate it worked for a while in its heyday the church had a huge following including such hollywood celebrities as sammy davis jr and jayne mansfield i have a picture of lavey with sammy by the way i find the idea of a satanist not believing in satan about as credible as a christian not believing in christ but if you include the church of satan then i suppose i need to alter my definition webster s dictionary and the american heritage dictionary will have to do the same kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal me too our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast and i couldn t find a copy there i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qu o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkovl k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail which killings do you say are religously motivated for example i would claim that the recent assassination of four catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira was probably religously motivated at the time of writing i think that someone who claims the current violence is motivated by religion is reaching what would you call is when someone writes the killings in n i are not religously motivated now it s possible to argue that religion in the past is a major contributing factor to the violence in the present but i don t know of any evidence that this is so and i m not enough of a historian to debate it given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland into a country that has a particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction on civil rights dictated by that church i fail to see why the word past is appropriate but to claim that the killings in n i are not religously motivated is grotesque all that means is that the church and believers are doing what they always do with history they can t face they rewrite it you re attacking a different claim my claim is that when an ira terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s he does not have as a motive the greater glory of god sorry frank but what i put in quotes is your own words from your posting qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de don t tell us now that it s a different claim if you can no longer stand behind your original claim just say so i mean the same thing when i say the killings in n i are not religously motivated as i do when i say when a terrorist plants a bomb s he doesn t have a religious motive the example is meant to clarify not to be a new claim the different claim to which i refer is the claim which you were seemingly attacking in the previous post namely that religion is not a major historical cause of the present violence i don t assert that nor do i assert its opposite you don t have to hand us a bunch of double talk about what i was seemingly attacking i quoted what i was attacking jon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in qi jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes my understanding is that uk blasphemy laws yes they exist in the uk although they are little used apply only to anglican christianity how does this fit in with your claim that there is no state religion in the uk why don t you ask the approx two million british muslims who break it five times a day and have never ever been prosecuted under it then ask how easy it is to hold a christian church service in saudi arabia jon
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it when it first came out and the controversy broke put my name on the waiting list at the library that way if the book was really offensive none of my money would find its way to the author or publisher and read it cover to cover to use a phrase that seems popular here right now and i liked it the writing style was a little hard to get used to but it was well worth the effort coming from a similar background rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family and moved to england i grew up in new delhi it made a strong impression on me and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english the yaar at the end of a sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc at the time i still sorta kinda thought of myself as a muslim and i couldn t see what the flap was all about it seemed clear to me that this was allegory it was clear that he described some local prostitutes who took on the names and personae of muhammed s wives and had not as my grandfather thundered implied that muhammed s wives were prostitutes in short every angry muslim that had read even part of the book seemed to have missed the point completely and i won t mention the fact that the most militant of them had never even seen the book oops i just did perhaps in a deep sense the book is insulting to islam because it exposes the silliness of revealed religion why does an omnipotent deity need an agent she can come directly to me can t she how do we know that muhammed didn t just go out into the desert and smoke something and how do we know that the scribes he dictated the quran to didn t screw up or put in their own little verses and why can muhammed marry more than four women when no other muslim is allowed to although i think the biggest insult to islam is that the majority of its followers would want to suppress a book sight unseen on the say so of some holy guy not to mention murder the author over the years when i have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called it such things as filth and lies i would rank rushdie s book with hitler s mein kempf or worse and so on i had much the same response when i tried to talk about the book a really silly argument after all how many of these same people have read mein kampf it just made me wonder what are they afraid of why don t they just read the book and decide for themselves maybe the reaction of the muslim community to the book and the absence of protest from the liberal muslims to khomeini s fatwa outrage was the final push i needed into atheism s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re the universe and black holes was re years in article apr iastate edu kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote let s say that we drop a marble into the black hole it races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of infinity so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole not true only an observer at rest at infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time to reach the horizon in the particle s own reference frame it takes a very finite time to reach the horizon and the singularity the math does indeed predict this take a look at mitchner thorne and wheeler s gravitation peter walker don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules of islam in regard to banking this is done explicitly by the bank this was not the case with bcci so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than bcci would you care to explain why it was that when i said i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci you called me a childish propagandist jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the difference as i understand it is that when one invests one shares in the risk of the venture whereas when a bank lends money while charging interest the bank takes little risk the entire business of a bank is the management of risk that s what a bank is for that s what people who work for banks do something like that anyway financial stuff ain t my thing ok but in that case why are you posting about it what i hear you saying is i don t understand this stuff but if islam says it s so it s so jon
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article qnpe inn b gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn t spend much time on the wording in the part of the posting you have so helpfully deleted i pointed out that they used the wording from the english bill of rights apparently changing what they understood by it and i asked why then should we two hundred years later be bound by what keith allan schneider thinks they understood by it we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure people can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot so one cannot say a cruel fate your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing i think jon
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article qnedm a fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of according to jerry mander s in the absence of the sacred good book btw the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy also played a significant role as a model for the u s constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced by a study of iroquois society using it as the prime example of a successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes on to say that both the u s and the u s s r would do well to study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try to get it right next time that s fascinating i heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qnp inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance that s the entire point no that s the point of evolution not the point of natural morality unless of course as i have suggested several times already natural morality is just a renaming are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality is a morality that developed naturally but your yes is actually stronger than this you are agreeing that every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour you are going to call it a natural morality what about the natural morality of bee dance huh bee dance is a naturally developed piece of cooperative behaviour jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article ql a afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior ah the verb to must i was warned about that one back in kindergarten so why must they have such laws jon hey must is a verb in some languages just happens it is only a modifier in english but the verb of the sentence is to have this is modified by must i know that must is a verb in some languages i m complaining about the assertion containing the word must jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes jon livesey writes what i said was that people took time to copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real story that is a bigger headline let s back up to at this point we have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries in aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text is the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary in some places it has obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy these passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and to the septuagint so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixing predating the various corrupted passages it must be emphasized that to the best of my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and have little theological import so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that does not exclude variant readings from the masoretic text which are of little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other ot books there is also an abundance of other material but as far as i know there is no sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the septuagint as far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend to reflect the septuagint where the latter isn t obviously in error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there is this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the material but so far this hasn t happened the dss are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the ot unlike for the nt hey you re the expert jon
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article ofp qp vpdinppwh andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes as much faith as theism admit it besides not believing in a god means one doesn t have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with it for years i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it s important however trying to force a psychological fantasy i don t mean that in a bad way but that s what it really is on someone else who isn t interested is extremely rude what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my it should be noted that belief in god is in itself no more a behavoral imperative than lack of belief it is religion which causes the harm not the belief in god dan
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist stuff deleted as many posters have said in as many posts lately this is just not true for to show no interest in the existence of god takes no faith at all you make the presumption that the knowledge of the possibility of something is enough to require faith to render that possibilty of no interest it is a very different thing to say that you don t believe something than it is to say that you don t have sufficent reason to believe something is even interesting to think about it s not either or sometimes is just something else more interesting that occupies your mind i agree that faith and dogma are inevitable but not necessarily applied to god and religion it takes both faith and dogma to expect the sun to come up every morning but there is overwhelming reason every single day day in and day out for everyone to put his faith and dogma there not so with the christian religion jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you i wouldn t punish him with eternal torture if he didn t love me but then i m a decent chap it seems your god isn t the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself i ve looked and he wasn t another promise broken those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort lying bastard how do you know what effort i have and have not given simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know can anyone eaplain what he s just said here peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c s zm e cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz wrote in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz dress casual only in heaven is there a dress code black tie and self important expression don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in qi fc jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes some here on alt atheism think that by condemning the actions of some of those who call themselves muslims they are condemning islam do you read minds mr rice you know what posters think now not just what they write for myself i only have what people are posting here to go on and that s what i am commenting on i think you may have misunderstood me i mean that one does not really criticize islam necessarily by bringing khomeini etc into the argument for whether he is or is not following islam has to be determined by examining his actions against islamic teachings islamic teachings are contained in the qur an and hadiths reported sayings and doings of the prophet that s funny i thought you were making a statement about what people think in fact i see it quoted up there jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes by the way jon i found a reference to my claim that the percentage of the population that suffers from depression has been increasing this century as you requested i will start a new heading thread to post it under cool then we can discuss the increase in radio and tv use the increase in the use of fossil fuels the increase in air travel and consumption of processed bread and you can instruct us on which of them causes increased depression jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour jon
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall r eba hsq csugrad cs vt edu wrote i don t necessarily disagree with your assertion but i disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people to act on faith alone which by its nature is without justification that is what i mean by the word faith belief without justification or belief with arbitrary justification or with emotional irrational justification for example when someone says that god exists that they don t know why they believe god exists they can just feel it that s faith dogma is bad because it precludes positive change in belief based on new information or increased mental faculty so christians are totally irrational irrational with respect to their religion only what are you saying one s belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational i think i know what you were getting at but i d rather hear you expand on the subject faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals i claim that faith and dogma are the quintessential part of any religion if that makes the much overused in this context buddism a philosophy rather than a religion i can live with that science is not a religion because there is no faith nor dogma a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion again this statement is too general a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher and absolutely capable of changing his her mind faith in god is a belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which of course may show unfair bias when studying say religion have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists if a philosopher is not an atheist s he tends to be called a theologian a christian tends to consider christianity sacred christianity is a special set of beliefs sanctioned by god himself and therefore to conceive of changing those beliefs is to question the existence of that being who makes no mistakes faith comes into play dogma comes into play the lord works in mysterious ways is an example of faith being used to reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed sure interpretations of what god said are changed to satisfy the needs of society but when god says something that s it it was said and that s that since god said it it is unflawed even if the interpretations are flawed science as would be practiced by atheists in contrast has a built in defence against faith and dogma a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time and and and a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way the goal is to keep improving the beliefs the goal is to keep changing the beliefs to reflect the best information currently available that s the only rational thing to do that s good philosophy can you see the difference science views beliefs as being flawed and new information can be obtained to improve them how many scientists would claim to have complete and perfect understanding of everything none it would put them out of a job religion views its beliefs as being perfect and the interpretations of those beliefs must be changed as new information is acquired which conflicts with them please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more in your answer than waco it s easier for someone to kill a person when s he doesn t require a good rational justification of the killing i don t consider he s jewish or he was born of jewish parents or this document says he s jewish to be good rational justification by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could todd
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist consider special relativity it hasn t be proved nor has it been disproved no one has a proof one way or the other but many people are interested in it i ve satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the existence of god one way or the other the two possibilities are supernaturalism and naturalism of course no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with supernaturalism but similarly no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with naturalism in naturalism any phenomenon that could be described as god is considered part of the natural world to be studied as any other natural phenomenon gravity for instance for example if a loud godlike voice vociferously announced i am god i exist and i will prove it by reversing the force of gravity and if then gravity did indeed reverse a naturalist probably a scientist would say boy we sure didn t understand gravity as well as we thought we did and that loud voice is something new perhaps we didn t understand thunder as well as we thought we did either i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don t like or find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned is there god ordained murder in the bible you bet and if god ever orders me to kill you i will but i will first use the gideon like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss it in an abram like fashion i m sure glad you don t know where i live since you don t seem to realize it is impossible for you to distinguish between voices in your head and god s voice i can hear you now this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship to christianity that rape bears to consentual sex form but no substance when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non christian with you you seem to have missed my point even if jim jones and david koresh were not religious people my point remains that faith and dogma are dangerous and religion encourages them jim jones and david koresh also encouraged them my point does not rely on jim jones and david koresh being religious todd
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist absolutely not true without religion either an established one or one you invent for yourself the theist and atheist are equally not interested in god because without religious revelation there is no information about god available strip away the dogma and the theists atheists are no different simply holding a different opinion on a matter of little practical importance i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don t like or find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned is there god ordained murder in the bible you bet and if god ever orders me to kill you i will but i will first use the gideon like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss it in an abram like fashion sorry but that doesn t help what test will you apply to decide whether it is god or satan with whom you are speaking how will you know that you have not simply gone insane or having delusions you are like a loaded gun i can hear you now this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship ah you not as stupid as i assumed when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non christian with you yes we re all in this together each human making up a small part of the definition of humanity dan
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes as i know you can t get any physical problems by passive christianity unlike smoking it s not that hard to avoid christianity today anyway just ignore em right on keith err kent whadda you mean you didn t see the smiley ouch i guess i didn t sorry but my comment was just more irony into the fire cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal me too our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast and i couldn t find a copy there i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists if i remember correctly prometheus books have this one in stock so just call them and ask for the book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	age of reason was who has read rushdie s this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted place to daltons to various other places when he asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books such is the life and times of america years after the revolution cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c rekj y darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy it isn t and i wasn t aware that this o hair chick was a reader of a a so that doesn t support your assertion that the argument is the whole basis of a great many here rejecting dan
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around what would you accept as sources this very thing has been written in lots of books you could start with erich fromm s the dogma of christ doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article r j d e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes according to jerry mander s in the absence of the sacred good book btw the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy also played a significant role as a model for the u s constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced by a study of iroquois society using it as the prime example of a successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes on to say that both the u s and the u s s r would do well to study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try to get it right next time that s fascinating i heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta that s fascinating i take it that you re expressing skepticism at the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced the constitution of the people who stole their continent you could be right but it sounds plausible to me is there any reason that you dismiss it out of hand here s some more recent scholarship has shown that in the mid s indians were not only invited to participate in the deliberations of our founding fathers but that the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy arguably became the single most important model for the albany plan of union and later the articles of confederation and the constitution that this would be absent from our school texts and from history and from media is not surprising given the devotion americans feel to our founding myth great men gathered to express a new vision that has withstood the test of time if it were revealed that indians had a role in it imagine the blow to the american psyche by when most of these men and others gathered to creat the albany plan of union the first try at confederation they invited forty two members of the iroquois grand council to serve as advisors on confederate structures benjamin franklin freely acknowledged his interest in the iroquois achievement in a famous speech at albany congress it would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages sic should be capable of forming such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner that it has subsisted for ages and appears indissoluble and yet that a like union should be impractical for ten or a dozen english colonies according to grinde franklin convened meetings of iroquois chiefs and congressional delegates in order to hammer out a plan that he acknowedged to be similar to the iroquois confederacy grinde is professor donald grinde jr of the university of california at riverside whose book the iroquois and the founding fathers of the american nation addresses this issue doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon date tue apr gmt from carolyn jean fairman cfairman leland stanford edu agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt asks about mormons there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist one of the more amusing things in the bom is a claim that a civilization existed in north america aroun where the mystical plates were found not only did it use steel and other metals but it had lots of wars very ot no one has ever found any metal swords or and traces of a civilization other than the native americans this is just one example from free inquiry winter the following is an introduction to the article joseph smith and the book of mormon by george d smith the introduction is written by paul kurtz mormonism the church of jesus christ of latter day saints claims a worldwide membership million it is one of the world s fastest growing religions with as many as new converst in alone because of the church s aggressive missionary program covering more than one hundred countries it is spreading even to third world countries mormonism is both puritanical in moral outlook and evangelical in preachment the church is run along strict authoritarian lines led by a president who allegedly receives revelations directly form god and a group of twelve apostles who attempt to maintain orthodoxy in belief and practice the church is opposed to abortion pornography sexual freedom women s rights and other in its view immoral influences of secular society and it forbids the use of tobacco alcohol coffee and tea centered in salt lake city the church is extremely wealthy and politically powerful in utal and many other western states among well know present day mormons are ezra taft benson former secretary of agriculture the osmond family the mariotts of the hotel empire and a score of high placed government officials the mormon church was founded in western new york in by joseph smith who claimed that by divine revelation be had found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried on a hill and that with the help of visits from the angel moroni he had been able to translate the writing into the book of mormon the basis of mormon belief this book written by the commandment of god claims that the ancient hebrews settled in america about b c e and were the ancestors of the american indians mormons believe that those who have been baptized in the true church will be reunited after death and that deceased non mormon family members can be baptized by proxy and thus join their relatives in the hereafter because of these beliefs mormons have been considered outcasts by mainline christian denominations and as heretics by religious fundamentalists joseph smith was a controversial figure in his day he was both worshiped as a saint and denounced as a fraud because of persecution he led his band of loyal followers from palmyra new york westward to ohio and then to illinois where in he was shot to death by an agry mob brigham young who reportedly had as many as eighty wives took over the leadership of the church and led the mormons further westward to found the new zion in salt lake city following the teachings of joseph smith in the practice of polygamy was perhaps the mormons most controversial practice in nineteenth century america while other religions go back many centuries muhammadanism years christianity and judaism and attempts to examine their beginnings are difficult extensive historical investigation of mormon roots is possible some mormons are willing to examine this history objectively bu others maintain that such scrutiny is dangerous to the faith in the following pages free inquiry presents two articles about the mormon church first george d smith a lifelong member of the church provides a detailed critical examination of joseph smith and his claim the the book of mormon was divinely revealed second we present a portion of an interview with philosopher sterling mcmurrin also a mormon since birth who questions the treatment of the history of the church by mormon authorities paul kurtz the article itself is super c jimtims p psilink com
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic why don t you cite the passages so that we can focus on some to discuss then following jesus you can make fools of us and our logic if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now indeed if you can justifiably make this assertion you must be a genius in logic and making fools of us should be that much easier qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	logic of jesus dps nasa kodak com pontificated simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic can you cite an example of this please post an answer as i don t want to receive e mail james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan pontificated q how many moslem men does it take to rape a woman a five one to commit the act and four to witness the penetration a guilty verdict can be rendered only if there is a confession or if there are at least two male witnesses to the crime adultery and rape are proved only if four witnesses have seen the actual penetration an occurrence that presumably does not happen often is this from the quran or however it s spelled james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court i ve heard that in california they ask you to swear without any mention of a god what states actually include god in the courtroom oath james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes ah that old chestnut your claim that moral objectivism scientific objectivism i don t agree with it now try proving through some objective moral test that my disagreeing is incorrect your claim which you have deleted now was not universal not objective i ve deleted it now in the interest of brevity go back a step and you ll see it was still in your post yes that was my claim if you can refute it then please do so firstly an apology you hadn t deleted your claim and i was mistaken in saying you had sorry for any offence caused secondly how can i refute your definition i can only point up its logical implications and say that they seem to contradict the usage of the word objective in other areas indeed by your definition an objective x is an oxymoron for all x i have no quibble with that belief other than that it is useless and that objective is a perfectly good word so what is objective not the age of the universe anyway as i show above how many ages can the universe have and still be internally self consistent i d be amazed if it was more than one how many different moral systems can different members of society have indeed single individuals in some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age of the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has a real age independent of my beliefs about it why the age of the universe like most scientific facts can be emirically verified through means that ll give the same result no matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may be on the largish side this assumes that the universe has a real age or any kind of reality which doesn t depend on what we think why should an extreme biblical creationist give a rat s ass about the means of which you speak i ve heard of no way to verify morality in a consistent way much less compute the errors of the measurement care to enlighten me the same is true of pain but painkillers exist and can be predicted to work with some accuracy better than a random guess i wrote elsewhere that morality should be hypotheses about observed value if a moral system makes a prediction it will be better if that can be tested and is falsifiable in the same way as a prediction this drug will relieve pain people s ideas about the age of object x are not objective you can have any idea you like and i can t stop you universae and their ages is another ballgame they are what they are and if you dislike some detail of them that s a problem with your opinion of them sure assume an objective reality and you get statements like this i claim that morality is an opinion of ours and as such subjective and individual if i m wrong then some more or less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back up this positive claim of existence can you back up your positive claim above no that s because it s an assumption i make the same assumption about values on the basis that there is no logical difference between the two and the empirical basis of the two is precisely the same point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly take a look on the desk i e perform a test if football then accept theory else do tell people they re hallucinating now take a look at morality see anything if so please inform me which way to look and why to look that particular way as opposed to some other get my drift no just look are you claiming never to know what good means science is a whole other matter altogether says you prove that those who disagree are wrong that s a simple matter of proving the track record of the scientific method i think it s great and should be applied to values i may be completely wrong but that s what i conclude as a result of quite an amount of thought frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c reyf ce darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank me if i m wrong but didn t lord liar or lunatic originate with c s lewis who s this campollo fellow anyway i do think so and isn t there a clear connection with the i do believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original christians origen there is a similar statement attributed to anselm i believe so that i may understand in both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can be properly analysed in this venue bill i think you have a misunderstanding about atheism lack of belief in god does not directly imply lack of understanding transcendental values i hope you would accept the fact that for instance buddhists appreciate issues related to non empirical reasoning without the need to automatically believe in theism i think reading a couple of books related to buddhism might revise and fine tune your understanding of non christian systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know can anyone eaplain what he s just said here i can t it seems jesus used logic to make people using logic look like fools no that does not sound right he maybe just told they were fools and that s it and people believed that hmm does not sound reasonable either i find it always very intriguing to see people stating that transcendental values can t be explained and then in the next sentence they try to explain these unexplained values highly strange cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around well as i remember jacoby s mythmaker talks about this to cite one source but i m not sure if all christians have read this book in addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a lutheran having a lot of christian friends and i even have played in two christian rock bands so over to you do you have any counter claims sources et rest that shows that christianity does not have the concept of a social promise that is independent on the social status cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article c rb g u darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect however to underestimate the power of religion creating historical events is also a big misunderstanding for instance would the year old war have ever started if there were no fractions between the protestants and the vatican cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article c rlyz mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint bill ever heard of secular humanism please check out what this stands for and then revise your statements above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article r kt e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour i m not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that it is not relevant to the definition of atheism which is lack of belief in gods frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article r gi e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qu o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkovl k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail which killings do you say are religously motivated for example i would claim that the recent assassination of four catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira was probably religously motivated at the time of writing i think that someone who claims the current violence is motivated by religion is reaching what would you call is when someone writes the killings in n i are not religously motivated i d say it was motivated by a primitive notion of revenge and by misguided patriotism otherwise i d have to wonder how come mainland catholics are not killed by mainland protestants and southern catholics are not killed by southern protestants and so on take away all plausible causes bar religion and the violence diminishes markedly gee why is that now it s possible to argue that religion in the past is a major contributing factor to the violence in the present but i don t know of any evidence that this is so and i m not enough of a historian to debate it given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland into a country that has a particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction on civil rights dictated by that church i fail to see why the word past is appropriate the country also has a different official language written in its constitution and vice versa maybe they re motivated by a love of irish poetry your argument is fallacious jon for what it s worth i agree with all that you say about ireland above and more frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an well that is certainly different but it looks as if there is a translation found for everything by the way i am most surprised to hear that night and day move in an orbit and that the sun travels in an orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric to me benedikt
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r inr lvi horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out it s not a fallacy note the if if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value we re not doing ethics yet benedikt then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial observation the reference to it s not yet being ethics is dubious you have used the terms absolute objective and others interchangeably same with moral values values at all worth measuers and usefulness you infer from them as if they were the same to the if when the if is not fulfilled your intermission is a waste of time assuming that you don t intend this it is reasonable to conclude that you want to argue a point you have made a interesting statement here namely that of the disinterested observer there is no such thing in morals probably the shortest proof for objective and morality being a contradiction for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold i have however given an example of a value people agree on and explained why people will agree that their freedom is valuable i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics the if assertion above and that is what i m talking about there isn t a point in talking about ethics if this can t be agreed fine and that freedom is valuable is not generally agreed upon i could name quite a lot of people who state the opposite not that that wasn t mentioned before in other words you have nothing to fulfill your strong claims with one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give i m not doing morals ethics if we can t get past values as i say the only cogent objection to my freedom example is that maybe people aren t talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable maybe not and i want to think about this some especially the implications of its being true clutching a straw i don t believe in mappings into metaphysical sets were loaded terms are fixpoints those who deny the morality of freedom make quite clear what they say their practice is telling yes there are even those who are willingly unfree it is quite common in religions by the way for one there is a religion which is named submission don t even try to argue that submission is freedom further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories garbage that s not proof either if it were so it would argue my case but i am afraid that that is considered proof the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher name that fallacy there is something universally valued in a moral context benedikt
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere deletions bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators and yet it actually turned out to be a long running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors an islamic bank is something which operates in a different fashion to your modern bank as i have explained here on another thread before for example islamic banks don t pay fixed interests on deposits but a return on investments which varies according to the market and is not fixed like interest is islamic banks are a relatively new phenomenon in the islamic world there are no islamic banks in the west including the usa to my knowledge i doubt if the market for them exists there at least not while islamic banks are at a relatively early stage of their development as is the case now bcci is most certainly not an islamic bank did bcci ever pay a fixed interest rate on deposits if the answer to this question is yes then bcci was not an islamic bank as islamic banks are specifically set up to not pay or charge interest whether some muslims partially owned the bank or whatever is completely irrelevant fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long this is the most unmitigated bilge i ve seen in a while jim brown obviously has possession of the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective in december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told a senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world iraq he suggested was losing badly every day it defied the un demands while the community of nations won every day with no taking of life or loss of life fcnl washington newsletter the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is wrongful actions of murderers like leaders of the us government perhaps regrettable of course the way it is certainly not the media is not totally monolithic there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush good heavens an escapee from rush limbot land conservative my ass and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about s no one has attempted to calculate the costs of an execution in washington state but studies elsewhere suggest it costs far more than incarceration california is spending more than million annually on capital cases and until this year hadn t executed anyone since texas the national leader in the number of executions spends an estimated million per execution that compares to an average cost of incarceration in washington state of per maximum security prisoner per year shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists in article o rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned i asked around in one of the areas you suggested yourself and presented the information i got no mention of us landmines was given other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it oh very neat dismiss everything i say unless i can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt something which you yourself admit i can never prove to your satisfaction thanks i ll stick to squaring circles mathew okay so you are going to blindly believe in things without reasonable evidence i didn t realize you were a theist i am doubting a claim presented without any evidence to support it if you are able to present real evidence for it then great but unsupported claims or even claims by such and such news agency will not be accepted if you want to stick to the sheer impossible instead of the merely difficult then fine the statement that if such a fact is classified then you can t prove it is a simple matter of pragmatics and the law if you have access to classified information that you know to be classified and you reveal it there is a good chance that you or someone else the person who revealed it to you is going to jail i never said that you couldn t prove it to my satisfaction i merely said that it was difficult who said i try and make things easy for people i am arguing with unless of course they need the handicap mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article r lva vq fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know the us invaded nicaragua several times this century including october andf again in february haiti was occupied in thanks jon i had forgotten about the and invasions if i had ever learned of them i mean i really forgot but i read the context as more recent such as when the sandinistas were expecting an imminent invasion from the u s which never happened i stand corrected thanks panama we invaded true twice this century the us created panama in the first place by fomenting and then intervening in a civil war in the then republic of colombia us troops landed in colombia to help with the uprising and then colombia was duly dismembered and replaced by two countries in order that the us could build the panama canal in the new republic of panama i remembered this one this one and bush s invasion were the two i mentioned above good ol teddy r he knew how to get things done jon regards jim b
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right right there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed the branch dividians were they believed and trusted so much that it became impossible to turn back to reality what you are advocating is total irreversible brainwashing dan
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article r oe hqd horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r kt e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour i m not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that it is not relevant to the definition of atheism which is lack of belief in gods throw away the faq we can all just ask mr o dwyer since he can define the thing that the rest of us only talk about jon
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms in article l rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein but it s still happening that s the entire point only last month john major hailed it as a great victory that he had personally secured a sale of arms to saudi arabia the same month we sold jet fighters to the same indonesian government that s busy killing the east timorese i heard about the arms sale to saudi arabia now how is it such a grave mistake to sell saudi arabia weapons or are you claiming that we shouldn t sell any weapons to other countries straightforward answer please it s all very well to say oops we made a boo boo better clean up the mistake but the us and uk keep making the same mistake they do it so often that i can t believe it s not deliberate this suspicion is reinforced by the fact that the mistake is an extremely profitable one for a decrepit economy reliant on arms sales who benefits from arms sales hint it isn t normally the gov t it is the contractor that builds that piece of equipment believe it or not the us and uk don t export the huge quantities of arms that you have just accused them of doing arms exports are rare enough that it requires an act of congress for non small arms to most countries if not all do you believe in telling everyone who can do what and who can sell their goods to whom mathew mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote stuff deleted now i do not believe in blindly following anyone no matter how knowledgeable he or she may be in islamic law if someone tells me islam says such and such i immediately say show me the support for this statement from the qur an and sunnah i believe this to be my islamic duty for according to one hadith of the prophet peace and blessings of god be with him if your leader tells you to enter a fire and you do it and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions of your leader i am responsible for my own actions not abu hanifa or imam malik etc even if i am blindly following the opinions of abu hanifa etc with this in mind to my understanding we must look at the reasoning behind such opinions of muslims that support khomeini s fatwa now to my understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini s fatwa is relating to a particular instance that occurred during war time now brother in general it is imho ridiculous and wrong to say that a hadith relating to the actions of war is usable during times of peace i think any sensible human being can see this so i personally think that the reasoning of some of our ulema in this matter is faulty for they think it is legitimate to use acts of war in times of peace regarding this particular subject if you think i am wrong please feel free to say so with your reasoning from qur an and hadith please not because somebody said so i want the reasoning from al qur an and the sahih hadiths perhaps we should take our discussion to soc religion islam please email me rashid if you think we should do this by the way i also disagree with your opinion regarding the punishment for apostasy the viewpoint i follow that there is in general no punishment for apostasy is very strongly supported by qur an and hadith this is very well shown in the book punishment in islamic law by mohamed s el awa american trust publications i reiterate that i would agree with you that there is little justification for the punishment of apostasy in the qur an in islamic history as well apostasy has rarely been punished belief is considered a matter of conscience and since there is to be no compulsion in the matter of belief apostates have been generally left to believe or not believe as they will however when an apostate makes attacks upon god and his messenger the situation changes now the charge of apostasy may be complicated with other charges perhaps charges of sedition treason spying etc if the person makes a public issue of their apostasy or mounts public attacks as opposed to arguement against islam the situation is likewise complicated if the person spreads slander or broadcasts falsehoods again the situation changes the punishments vary according to the situation the apostate is in anyhow the charge of aggravated apostasy would only be a subsidiary charge in rushdie s case there is a distinction in the qur an between a formal war situation and being in the situation where someone unilaterally wages war by their actions creates disorder makes mischief etc against the muslims and creates a situation that results in harm to muslims here a small group or even a single individual could be said to be engaged in such a practise in other words there is a clear difference between a formal war situation where two clearly defined parties wage war conclude treaties exchange prisoners etc and dealing with attacks that come from isolated individuals or groups against islam it is the second situation the unilateral attack and the spreading of fasad that would apply in the case of rushdie the matter of rushdie is not a simple matter of banning an offensive book banning the book is secondary a full set of circumstances following the publication of the book come into play as well including the deaths of many muslims and rushdie s and his publishers media games now i do not believe in blindly following anyone no matter how knowledgeable he or she may be in islamic law if someone tells me islam says such and such i immediately say show me the support for this statement from the qur an and sunnah i believe this to be my islamic duty for according to one hadith of the prophet peace and blessings of god be with him if your leader tells you to enter a fire and you do it and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions of your leader i am responsible for my own actions not abu hanifa or imam malik etc even if i am blindly following the opinions of abu hanifa etc now to my understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini s fatwa is relating to a particular instance that occurred during war time now brother in general it is imho ridiculous and wrong to say that a hadith relating to the actions of war is usable during times of peace i think any sensible human being can see this so i personally think that the reasoning of some of our ulema in this matter is faulty for they think it is legitimate to use acts of war in times of peace regarding this particular subject i am not sure which hadith you are referring to above i believe that one of the qur anic verses on which the fatwa is based is every verse in the qur an has a corresponding circumstance of revelation but in no way is the understanding the tafsir of the verse restricted solely to the particular historical circumstance in which it was revealed if this was the case then we could say that all the laws and regulations that were revealed when the muslims were not involved in conflict should be suspended when they were at war the logic does not follow in complex real life situations there may be many verses and many hadiths which can all be related to a single complicated situation the internal relationships between these verses may be quite complex such that arriving at an understanding of how the verses interlock and how each applies to the particular situation can be quite a demanding task it is not necessarily a simple this or that process there may be many parameters involved there may be a larger context in which a particular situation should be viewed all these matters impinge on the situation in other words there is a great deal involved in deciphering the qur an the qur an asks us to reflect on its verses but this reflection must entail more than simply reading a verse and its corresponding hadith if the reflection is for the sake of increasing personal piety then each person has his own level of understanding and there is no harm in that however if the reflection is in order to decide matters that pertain to the state to the gestation of laws and rulings to the gestation of society the dispensing of justice the guidance of the community then there are certain minimum requirements of understanding that one should achieve jaffar ibn muhammad as sadiq a s relates some of these requirements as taught by the prophet s a in a hadith he who does not distinguish in the book of allah the abrogating verse from the abrogated one and a specific one from a general one and a decisive from an ambiguous and does not differentiate between a permission and an obligation and does not recognize a verse of meccan period from a medinite one and does not know the circumstances of revelation and does not understand the technical words of the qur an whether simple or compound and does not comprehend the knowledge of decree and measure and is ignorant of advancing and delaying in its verses and does not distinguish the clear from the deep nor the manifest from the esoteric nor the beginning from the termination and is unaware of the question and the answer the disjoining and the joining and the exceptions and the all inclusive and is ignorant of an adjective of a preceding noun that explains the subsequent one and is unaware of the emphasized subject and the detailed one the obligatory laws and the permissions the places of the duties and rules and the meaning of the lawful and the unlawful and does not know the joined words and the words that are related to those coming before them or after them then such a man does not know the qur an nor is he among the people of the qur an based on these and other hadiths and in accordance with many qur anic verses why should not a company from every group remain behind to gain profound understanding tafaqquh in religion and to warn people when they return to them so that they may beware a science of jurisprudence arose the requirements for a person to be considered a mujtahid one who can pronounce on matters of law and religion are many i ve listed a few major divisions below there are of course many subdivisions within these headings knowledge of arabic syntax conjugation roots semantics oratory knowledge of tafsir and principles of tafsir logic mantiq a knowledge of hadiths a knowledge of transmitters rijal knowledge of the principles of juriprudence qur an sunnah consensus reasoning the study of qur an and sunnah for purposes of law involves discussion of imperatives awamir discussion of negative imperatives nawahi discussion of generalities and particularities aam wa khas discussion of unconditional and conditional discussion of tacit meanings discussion of the abstract and the clear discussion of the abrogator and the abrogated the principles of application of the law involves principles of exemption principles of precaution principles of option principles of mastery the jurisprudent is bound to go through a very rigorous process in pronouncing judgement on a given situation it is not a matter of looking at one verse and one hadith now no one should blindly follow anyone but there is a difference between blind following and acceding to the opinion of someone who is clearly more knowledgeable and more qualified than oneself there is the famous hadith of the prophet s a in which he says the fuqaha religious scholars are the trustees of the prophet as long as they do not concern themselves with the illicit desires pleasures and wealth of this world the prophet s a was asked o messenger of god how may we know if they so concern themselves he s a replied by seeing whether they follow the ruling power if they do that fear for your religion and shun them i do not yet know enough about the imams of the four sunni madhabs to comment on how this hadith applies to them or to the contemporary scholars who base themselves upon them the prophet also refered to the fuqaha as the fortress of islam my only point is to make it clear that arriving at a legal judgement calls into play a certain amount of expertise the specifics of this expertise is delineated in the qur an and hadith those who acquire this expertise are praised in both the qur an and hadith those who without the requisite knowledge pronounce on matters that affect society state and religion are cautioned the only reason i said anything at all about the rushdie affair in this group is because the whole basis for the discussion of the fatwa that is apostasy was wrong when one discusses something they should at least base their discussion on fact secondly khomeini was condemned as a heretic because he supposedly claimed to be infallible another instance of creating a straw man and then beating him perhaps we should take our discussion to soc religion islam please email me rashid if you think we should do this i agree that we should move the discussion to another newsgroup unfortunately i do not have any access to email so private discussion or a moderated group is out of the question i cannot post to a moderated group like soc religion islam how about soc culture arabic or talk religion misc as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism don t mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to condemn without having even your most basic facts straight if you want some examples go back and look at your previous posts where you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini s supposed infallibility as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk wrote about my reply diplomatic it a society that is constantly on the verge of flaming usenet diplomacy is the best way to ensure the voice of reason gets through isn t it i realize i m fighting occam s razor in this argument so i ll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary kevin unfortunately you are now delving into field i know too little about algorithms your reasoning as i see it is very much along the lines of roger penrose who claimed that mathematical insight cannot be algorithmic in his book the emperor s new mind concerning computers minds and the laws of physics however penrose s claim that he has mathematical insight or your similar claim that wavefunctions collapse only when we consciously take a look could be just illusions we are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints i try to ponder on the problem of consciousness from an evolutionary perspective realising that it might not be anything special but certainly useful thinking back of what i wrote do you think worms have minds or not they are able to experience pain at least they behave just like that yet it is conceivable that we might some day in the future perform a total synthesis of c elegans from the elements would such a worm have a mind firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself this is true to some extent however i do not think that our brains work like computers at all in fact there is substantial evidence skarda skarda freeman that brains work more or less chaotically generating enough randomness for mental states to evolve our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators i suppose the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this is somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded in chromosomes worth of genetic material much of which isn t used indeed this is extremely unlikely given the vast impact of nurture on our mind and brain i suggest however that before trying to understand our consciousness as a collection of algorithms kevin take a look at the references i mentioned and think again i still think the best experts on the nature of a conscious mind are neurologists neuropsychologists and biologists but do not flame me for my opinions since they study beings that are conscious the reason i am repeating my advice is that this discussion cannot lead to anywhere if our backgrounds are too different and please do not bring qm into this discussion at all not all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness plays some special role in physics i would say it doesn t the other problem with algorithms is their instability not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it s code again brains are not computers don t forget this this does not mean they need something else to work they just work differently their primary purpose is perception and guidance of action self awareness and high intelligence are later appearances the next problem is the sticky question of what is colour replace colour with the sensation of your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint is that it s the product of some kind of chemical reaction the usual products of such a reaction are energy different chemicals is colour a mixture of these you are still expecting that we could find the idea of green in our brains somewhere perhaps in the form of some chemical this is not how i see it the sensation green is a certain time dependent pattern in the area v of our visual cortex and it is distributed with the help of areas v and v to the rest of the brain indeed a firing pattern i have sometimes thought of our consciousness as a global free induction pattern of these local firing patterns but this is just idle speculation scientific american s september issue was a special issue on mind and brain have you already read it from cover to cover there are two articles on visual perception so you might be interested but again please note that subjective experiences cannot be observed from a third person perspective if we see nothing but neuronal activity we cannot go on to conclude that this is not the mind kalat writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation of different areas of brain have led to various changes in the patients state of mind for instance a patient whose septal area was stimulated without his knowledge by remote control during a psychiatric interview was quickly cured of his depression and started discussing a plan to seduce his girlfriend stimulations in the temporal lobe have sometimes led to embarrassing situations when the patients have started flirting with the therapist in conclusion there is evidence that brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences brain damage is usually equivalent to some sort of mind damage conscious processes involve substantial brain activity in various areas of brain when we think of colours our visual cortex is activated etc consciousness is an afterthought we become conscious of our actions with a half a second delay and our brains are ahead of our conscious will by at least ms thus i think it is fruitful to turn the question why do i see colours around and ask what is this i that seems to be observing since it seems that our conscious mind is not the king of our brains if this is so a computer won t see colour because the chemistry is different does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn t it shouldn t because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances so why do we see colour this depends on what is meant by seeing colours does a neural network that is capable of recognising handwritten numbers from to see the numbers if it is capable of sorting them if you are asking why does an animal who is conscious of itself as an observer have an evolutionary advantage over an animal who doesn t i have a good answer read my previous posting where i wrote why a sense of identity helps social animals to swap roles and act more morally so that they don t unconsciously kill each other with newly discovered weapons a bit extreme but this is the basic idea when early homo became more and more efficient in using tools a sense of identity and the concept of self had to evolve in line with this development indeed respect for others and conscious altruistic behaviour might be evolutionary advantages for social animals such as early humans if i remember correctly quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction with two processes acting on it the first process has been called unitary evolution or u is governed by schroedinger s equation and is well known the second process called various things such as collapse of the wavefunction or state vector reduction or r and is more mysterious it is usually said to occur when a measurement takes place although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs when it does occur the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction if minds are required for this does this mean that until human minds came to the scene wavefunctions never collapsed but remained in the superpositions for aeons my how powerful we are this has been discussed before and i think this topic is irrelevant since we do not agree that minds are necessary and neither do physicists anyway i m speculating that minds would be in part x there seems to be some link between consciousness and r in that we never see linear superpositions of anything although there are alternative explainations for this i ve no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x but since this is only speculation that won t matter too much my main point is that there might be a place for minds in physics i agree but not in the sense you apparently mean above physics needs sharp minds to solve many real problems i ll go back to my nice padded cell now if that s ok with you it s ok if you don t forget to take with you the references i wrote about in my previous posting plus the following kalat james w biological psychology rd ed wadsworth publishing company belmont ca skarda c explaining behavior bringing the brain back in inquiry skarda c freeman w how brains make chaos in order to make sense of the world behavioral and brain sciences petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote in apr cs nott ac uk kevin anthony kax cs nott ac uk writes firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself crossword example deleted have you heard of neural networks i ve read a little about them and they seems to overcome most of your objections i m sure there are many people who work with neural networks and read this newsgroup please tell kevin what you ve achieved and what you expect i am not saying that nns will solve all such problems but i think they show that it is not as hard as you think to come up with mechanical models of consciousness indeed i think dualism is a non solution or as dennett recently put it a dead horse petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back in article apr ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk wrote this post is probably either brilliant or insane do let me know which a brilliant example of using the introspective objection against materialist theories of consciousness diplomatic i realize i m fighting occam s razor in this argument so i ll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself as a specific example i like to solve numerical crosswords not the simple do the sums and insert the answers type the hard ones to do these with any efficiency you need to figure out a variety of tricks now i know that you can program a computer to do these puzzles but in doing so you have to work out the tricks yourself and program them into the computer you can of course obfuscate the trick and write the program so that it is uncovered but as far as i can see the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this is somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded in chromosomes worth of genetic material much of which isn t used one way around this is to bring the environment into the equation but again as far as i can see this still has an air of if you see object x then perform action y and we don t seem to get anywhere the algorithm has to anticipate what it might see and what conclusions to draw from it s experience the other problem with algorithms is their instability not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it s code the next problem is the sticky question of what is colour replace colour with the sensation of your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint is that it s the product of some kind of chemical reaction the usual products of such a reaction are energy different chemicals is colour a mixture of these if this is so a computer won t see colour because the chemistry is different does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn t it shouldn t because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances so why do we see colour however such a view is actually a nonsolution how should minds be able to act as observers feel pain and pleasure and issue commands any better than the brain moreover how do the interactions occur a bit of idle speculation if i remember correctly quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction with two processes acting on it the first process has been called unitary evolution or u is governed by schroedinger s equation and is well known the second process called various things such as collapse of the wavefunction or state vector reduction or r and is more mysterious it is usually said to occur when a measurement takes place although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs when it does occur the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction i envisage r as an interaction between the wavefunction and something else which i shall imaginitively call part x it seems reasonable to assume that something causes r although that something might be the wavefunction itself in which case part x is simply the wavefunction note though that we d need more than u to explain r anyway i m speculating that minds would be in part x there seems to be some link between consciousness and r in that we never see linear superpositions of anything although there are alternative explainations for this i ve no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x but since this is only speculation that won t matter too much my main point is that there might be a place for minds in physics i ll go back to my nice padded cell now if that s ok with you petri kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact not by any standard of history i ve seen care to back this up sans the lies apologists are so fond of however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh not really most of the prophesies aren t even prophesies they re prayers and comments taken from the torah quite out of context seems xians started lying right from the beginning there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have my we re an arrogant ass aren t we you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities you re wrong to think we haven t the trust was in something that doesn t exist were you ever willing to die for what you believed i m still willing to die for what i believe and don t believe so were the loonies in waco so what besides the point s not to die for what one believes in the point s to make that other sorry son of a bitch to die for what he believes in doesn t anyone else here get tired of these cretins tirades peter the damed and damned proud of it don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions in article r bfe hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote so in conclusion it can be shown that there is essentially no logical argument which clearly differentiates a cult from a religion i challenge anyone to produce a distinction which is clear and can t be easily knocked down how about this one a religion is a cult which has stood the test of time or a religion is a cult that got co opted by people who are better at compartmentalizing their irrationality peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining he s an oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia is right after all personal attacks i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they stayed out of all conflicts or issues i bet you wouldn t you d love it deliberate misinterpretation of a persons statement by cutting out the part of the statement he tries to blunt the thrust of the sentence he never addresses the issue of extreemist peace people not holding true to their ideals but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do with their ideals ignoring the challenge he ignores the challenge that extreemists for peace tend to be quite insistent that everyone accept their ideals for the world and have even turned quite violent witness chicago summer mathew paranoia he assumes that anyone who argues against his viewpoint must masturbate over guns n ammo fire up the oven it isn t hot enough mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes this is the most unmitigated bilge i ve seen in a while jim brown obviously has possession of the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective in december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told a senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world iraq he suggested was losing badly every day it defied the un demands while the community of nations won every day with no taking of life or loss of life fcnl washington newsletter as i understand that number is deceptive the reason is that the money cost was in non oil sales for the most part iraq still is not allowed to sell oil or do many of the things under the initial sanctions but is still surviving and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky of the i have heard figures closer to but i won t quibble your figures most was dropped in carpet bombing of regions only occupied by enemy troops a b drops a lot of bombs in one sortie and we used them around the clock not to mention other smaller aircraft using dumb munitions the patriot uses a proximity fuse the adjusted figures for number of patriot kills of ss derivitives is that figure came not from some fluke in the pentagon but a someone working with such stuff in another part of dod the statement precision bombing was the norm is true around areas where civilians were close to the target we dropped by tonnage very little bombs in populated regions explaining the figures and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed this figure is far below all the other figures i have seen if it is indeed accurate then how do you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your or does your figure say a bomb missed if the plane took off with it and the bomb never hit the target regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time to lie with statistics the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re david coresh is god on one of the morning shows i think is was the today show david koresh s lawyer was interviewed during that interview he flipped through some letters that david koresh wrote on one of letters was written in hebrew near the bottom of the page koresh adonai did anyone else see that what could this mean by him david writing this
alt.atheism	re smullyanism for the day in article r tpi pu dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near the top writes this raymond smullyan quote is too big for a sig but deserves posting imho to big for a sig no way keith home of the billdboard sig files ryan private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article apr cs nott ac uk kax cs nott ac uk kevin anthoney writes in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you there s a difference between believing in the existence of an entity and loving that entity god could show me directly that he exists and i d still have a free choice about whether to love him or not so why doesn t he kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files kevin makes a good point here and when that theists miss all too often that is the belief in a diety is not necessarily coupled with agreement love of that diety so really they have yet another bit of convincing to do just beyond belief i guess the standard argumet goes something like well once you believe in god you know god is love and you will choose to love him if it wasnt so widely accepted and asserted it d be laughable best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel writes in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape probably because it is rape simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so so nothing it may work for some but not for others it doesn t give any insight into an overall god or overall truth of a religion it would seem to be dependent solely on the individual as well as individually created and since christians have failed to show us how there way of life is in any wy better than ours i do not see why the attempt to try it is necessary or even particularly attractive to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right well we will nerver know for sure if we were told the truth or not but at the very least there is a bit more evidence pointing to the fact that say there was a military conflict in vietnam years ago then there is a supernatural diety who wants us to live a certain way the fact that jesus warned against it means nothing i warn against it too big deal the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact this is not true the first two choices here life and death are scantily documented and the last one is total malarky unless one uses the bible and that is totally circular perhaps it be better to use the imagination or one s ignorance someone else will address this i m sure and refer you to plenty of documentation as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh how is this there is nothing more disgusting than christian attempts to manipulate interpret the old testament as being filled with signs for the coming of christ every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is autmoatically interpreted as the cross what a miscarriage of philology there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed well since we have skeptical hearts thank goodness there is no way to get into us here we have the irreconcilable difference christians glorify exactly what we tend to despise or snub trust belief faith without knowledge if i am lucky one day and i happen to be thinking of god at the same time my enkephalins go up then i may associate this as a sign of god it will feel right and i will trust without knowing maybe religosity does not seem to be anything that is conclusively arrived at but rather it seems to be more of a sudden affliction i believe many of us were willing to die for what we believed many of us were not the question is is suchg an attitude reflective of a correct or healthy morality it would seem not to be the same thing could reflect fanaticism for example and is any case an expression of simple selfishness adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	from soc religion christian i found this little gem i don t know if anyone has any interest comments hi everyone i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god according to romans that person is still saved by there faith but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him i e doesn t know him condemned so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn t make any attempt to live by the bible now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me in christ will adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re college atheists in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes nm w andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future what is the figure for the general population the last i heard of americans believe in reincarnation can somebody quote a stat i don t have a stat but unfortunately i did read generally that both smoking and belief in the supernatural occultish garbage is on the rise here i would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus so in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in their beliefs over four years there is nowhere to run funny in my country it works the other way round univ life is v v stressful for most people remember we re an asian population xtians like to prey on these people there is nowhere to run from them this is very interesting i thing the principle is sort of the same though all philosophical ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during college years whether the idea is christian or atheist doesn t always matter but i d like to say it s because atheists are more intelligent the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	some thoughts on christian books dn i think i took on this liar lunatic or the real thing dn the last time or was it the time before anyway let dn somebody else have a turn i can t debate it with a dn straight face or perhaps for something completely dn different we could just ridicule him or gather up all the dn posts from the last two times we did this and email them to dn him as an aside can you believe that somebody actually dn got a book published about this must have been a vanity dn press i would recomend to anyone out there to visit your local christian bookstore and become aware of the stuff they sell quite interesting most of the stuff is far from intelectual about the level of chick pamphelets if it is a common fundie bookstore it should have at least one section about how you should hate wiccans pagans catholics mormons rock musicians and anyone else who is not as fanatical as them hate for the love of god tm it is even more interesting watching the people who frequent such places very scary people they hear voices from god telling them whatever they want to hear if they were not christians most of them would be locked away maybe this is why federal money was reduced to mental institutions by the reagan administration had to get their religious leaders out where would christianity be if jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behavior new york state senator james h donovan on capitol punishment alan beware to touch these wires is instant death anyone found doing this will be prosecuted
alt.atheism	re what it means to be human was parsifal in article apr cs ucla edu brad pierce pierce cs ucla edu writes the bedrock of spiritual unreason is the belief that resonant yet but theology is full of reason even if it is as we believe based on false premises etc etc ill defined terms e g spirit transcendental mind self consciousness ultimate reality soul elan vital etc have meaning sadly adherents of spiritual movements are seldom satisfied hold on there no meaning to consciousness or mind or self with this harmless illogicality they seem inexorably drawn to a belief what illogicality in the primacy of the spiritual and transcendental over the material and empirical i e the primacy of pipe dreams jabberwocky and illusion over facts science and reason since when is for instance non behaviourist psychology a pipe dream surely the major purpose of the science of psychology is to understand the workings of the mind all creatures all feelings all thoughts all perceptions all processes and all phenomena are manifestations of the mundane i e matter energy space and time those who believe otherwise albeit some do not supplicate god are not atheists manifestations of the mundane sounds rather transcendental to me in fact matter energy space and time are well measured but mysterious concepts does an atheist really have to believe in your reductionism or be cast out as not following the true faith richard wilson logica industry ltd
alt.atheism	re christian morality is acooper mac cc macalstr edu turin turambar me department of utter misery said re dan schaertel s article if i followed the quoting right as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh how is this there is nothing more disgusting than christian attempts to manipulate interpret the old testament as being filled with signs for the coming of christ every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is autmoatically interpreted as the cross what a miscarriage of philology i think it may also be worthwhile pointing out that if we take the appellation rabbi seriously then jesus had a full grasp of contemporary scripture mat jesus saith unto them did ye never read in the scriptures mat jesus answered and said unto them ye do err not knowing mat the scriptures nor the power of god following from this he would have been in a wonderful position to fulfil prophesies and the nt says as much mat but how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled mat that thus it must be mat but all this was done that the scriptures of the mat prophets might be fulfilled then all the disciples mat forsook him and fled if the books comprising the referred to scripture had not been accessible then it probably would be a different matter tony
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish hello gang there have been some notes recently asking where to obtain the darwin fish this is the same question i have and i have not seen an answer on the net if anyone has a contact please post on the net or email me thanks john chadwick johnchad triton unm edu or
alt.atheism	re another request for darwin fish darwin fish can be bought from join the darwinners tm send to receive your official evolving fish wherever you want to spread the good news darwinners sunset blvd ste l a ca the greatest theory ever told jenny forty years from now nursing homes will be filled with demented hackers studying their blank laptop screens nicely placed on knitted quilts to keep their knees warm k mitchum
alt.atheism	re faq sheet mike mcangus mam mouse cmhnet org wrote by the way news announce newusers has an article can t remember which one that recommends reading a newsgroup for month before posting this makes sense because you get an idea who the players are and what the current discussions are about am i the only one who followed that advice no i spent a month just reading too mainly because i did not know much about the way atheists think i even printed out the faqs and discussed it with a friend before i started posting alt atheism deals with religious issues more appropriately lack of religious beliefs which are by their very nature very controversial it makes sense to read what is being discussed and how just to make sure you are not repeating something others have said better petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote details of us built chemical plant at al alteer near baghdad however the plant s intended use was to aid the iraqi infrastructure it is not an example of selling a weapon may sound nitpicking but are we going to refuse to sell valuable parts that build the infrastructure because of dual use technology i am contending that in this case and in the case of the sale of pesticides by uk companies that they knew full well that it was to be used for the production of chemical weapons even if that was not its officially stated purpose i personally don t think that letting iran conquer iraq would have been a good thing for that matter neither do i for the reasons you state it is the hypocrisy and claims the us did not help iraq that make me angry plus the fact that the usa seems to believe it has the right to interfere where is sees fit i e has an interest rather than a duty to intervene where it is required this is demonstrated by the failure of the us to do anything about east timor and the region is becoming destabilised the usa might have done something approaching the right thing given my reservations about the uncessary number of civillian casualites but for wholly the wrong reasons and after having a hand in creating the situation that in no way would affect the us later military action against iraq i did not suggest it would and it would be ridiculous to assert otherwise i was simply indicating the usa has previously aided iraq intel on manufacturing techniques or something of that nature no apparently data orginally from satellites although i doubt that iraq would have been given the raw data concerning troop concentrations aaron turner aaron minster york ac uk
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long shamim zvonko mohamed sham cs arizona edu wrote bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed i used to have full figures on this including the tons of bombs dropped and the number of cluster bomblet munitions used i had heard the of the laser guided weapons hit which is an unprecedented rate of success of the iron weapons hit again unprecedented the following is a rough estimate but this means of the tons of bombs dropped by us aircraft around tons missed i m not sure what proportion of this was dropped of baghdad rather than troop concentrations in iraq and kuwait much of the tonnage dropped was cluster munitions as were all the mrls rounds and many of the artillery rounds napalm and fuel air explosives were also used remember how we were told that weapons of mass destruction such as fae were very naughty indeed
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote this figure is far below all the other figures i have seen if it is indeed accurate then how do you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your or does your figure say a bomb missed if the plane took off with it and the bomb never hit the target regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time to lie with statistics answering the last sentence claimed that they had a success rate of without initially explaining until pressed that this meant that of the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere regardless of whether they had hit the intended target or indeed anything al all aaron turner
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged this figure would not simply be deaths by bombing but also death later from disease the sewer system of baghdad was deliberately targeted and starvation i believe but when i get a copy of the latest research in june or july that this was the figure proposed in the census bureau report on the matter the report was suppressed and the cb attempted to sack the author of the report but failed due to procedural technicality the author is now on permanent leave aaron turner
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote i heard about the arms sale to saudi arabia now how is it such a grave mistake to sell saudi arabia weapons or are you claiming that we shouldn t sell any weapons to other countries straightforward answer please saudi arabia is an oppressive regime that has been recently interfering in the politcs of newly renunified yemen including assasinations and border incursions it is entirely possible that they will soon invade unluckily for yemen it is not popular in the west as they managed to put aside political differences during reunification and thus the west has effectively lost one half north as a client state aaron turner
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v mr z darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes deleted stuff from andrew wrt which atheist myth is bill re to andrew the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm so we re just cheap knock offs of the true atheists religion demonstrates itself to be absurd constantly personally if someone asks i m happy to point out how this is so rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist man what is your pill wrt atheists if you re going to make such contentious statements back them up at least read news time and time again we ve hashed out the beliefs various religous doctrines hold try debating reasonably with someone who makes a statement like more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist then take a look at the responses we ve given tammy seem pretty reasonable nay even polite to me accusations of myths a flyin here s a good example of of what i said above read the post again i said acoording to which means i am referring to christian doctrine as i understand it if i am speaking for myself you ll know it my purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of christain doctrines since it seemed germane i saw your reference to according to in the original article then you do such an excellent job of spewing dogma that well the implication was pretty clear if wrong in this case jeez a misunderstanding let it go more statements to wrap this thing up if you read my post with same care as read the faq we wouldn t be having this conversation if you had written your post with the same as care as the faq has been we wouldn t be having this discussion gems about evidence deleted yes human reason does always come back to the existence of god we re having this discussion are we not jeez do i have to point this out to you this discussion is not all instances of human reason therefore your implication is false well this is interesting truth is to be determined by it politically correct content granted it s extremely unhip to be a wasp male and anything european is contemptable but i thought this kind of dialogue the purpose of a a was to get at the truth of things but then i remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and i understand how lame can you get who said anything about the truth of things read the faq very carefully please then report your findings about where it says the purpose of a a is to find the truth of things and stop impressing your own misguided image of atheists upon us it s really pissing me off bill
alt.atheism	discordian subgenius books addresses etc as requested here are some addresses of sources of bizarre religious satire and commentary plus some bijou book reviewettes loompanics unlimited po box port townsend wa usa publishers of one of the most infamous mail order book catalogue in the world anarchism discordianism libertarianism cryogenics money making legal and illegal privacy and security self defense and all kinds of other stuff that keeps christians awake at nights the church of the subgenius po box dallas tx usa the original end times church for post human mutants a high temple for scoffers mockers and blasphemers be one of the few to board the x ist saucers in and escape space god jhvh s stark fist of removal j r bob dobbs god of sales is waiting to take your money and ordain you magazines sick audio cassettes and assorted offensive cynisacreligious material periodic lists of addresses of pink religious cults and contact points for the world wierdo network expect a slow response to mail only conspiracies are well organized you will eventually get what you pay for if you give them some slack counter productions po box london se rl uk a uk source of obscure books a wide ranging selection surrealism anarchism subgenius discordianism robert anton wilson lovecraftian horror cyberpunk forteana political and social commentary wilhelm reich orgone tech obscure rock music sf and so on send an sae and maybe a bribe they need your money and ask for a catalogue tell them mathew sent you i ve ordered from these folks three or four times now and they re about as fast and efficient as you can expect from this sort of operation forbidden planet various sites in the uk in particular along london s new oxford street just down the road from tottenham court road tube station mass market oddness subgenius robert anton wilson loompanics and of course huge quantities of sf not a terribly good selection but they re in the high street reviewette loompanics greatest hits isbn x loompanics a selection of articles picked from the books in loompanics catalogue subjects include christian dispensationalism how right wing christians encouraged the cold war satanic child abuse myths religion and censorship plus lots of anarchist and libertarian stuff situationism computers and privacy and so on guaranteed to contain at least one article that ll offend you like for example the interview with bradley r smith the holocaust revisionist a good sampling of stuff in a coffee table book of course whether you want to leave this sort of stuff lying around on your coffee table is another matter quote the fundamentalists leap up and down in apoplectic rage and joy their worst fantasies are vindicated and therefore or so they like to think their entire theology and socio political agenda is too meanwhile teen age misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies classmates families friends even complete strangers all because they read one of anton lavey s cooks or listened to one too many ac dc records the born agains are ready to burn again and not just books this time reviewette the book of the subgenius j r dobbs the subgenius foundation isbn simon schuster described by rolling stone as a sick masterpiece for those who can still laugh at the fact that nothing is funny anymore the official bible of the subgenius church containing the sacred teachings of j r bob dobbs instant answers to everything causes catalytic brain cell loss in seconds the secret of total slack how to relax in the safety of your delusions and pull the wool over your own eyes nuclear doom and other things to laugh at quote he has been known to answer questions concerning universal truths with screams with suggestive silence by peeing down his pants leg his most famous sermon was of cosmic simplicity bob standing on the stage with his hands in his pockets smoking looking around and saying nothing heated arguments still rage among the monks often erupting into fatal duels as towhether the master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period of grace reviewette high weirdness by mail rev ivan stang isbn x simon schuster an encyclopedia of wierd organizations you can contact by mail space jesuses christian vs christian ufo contactees new age saps creationists flat earthers white supremacist churches plus yawn csicop sceptical enquirer and stuff like that not just a list of addresses though as each kook group is ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee if you like alt atheism s flame wars this is the book for you made me laugh until my stomach ached revised edition due some time in the next year or two sample entry entertaining demons unawares southwest radio church po box oklahoma city ok your watchman on the wall another flagellating genuflecting fundamentalist outfit their booklet entertaining demons unawares exposes the star wars e t dungeons dragons saturday morning cartoon satanic connection in horrifying detail left out smurfs though i especially liked the bit about wonder woman s antichrist origins keep in mind that once you send for anything from these people you ll be on their mailing list for life reviewette the abolition of work bob black isbn loompanics a selection of bob black s painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts collected into book form if i were this good i d be insufferable probably the only thought provoking political book that s fun to read quote babble about the wages of sin serves to cover up the sin of wages we want rights not rites sex not sects only eros and eris belong in our pantheon surely the nazarene necrophile has had his revenge by now remember pain is just god s way of hurting you reviewette principia discordia malaclypse the younger isbn loompanics the infamous discordian bible reprinted in its entirety and then some yes you could ftp the online copy but this one has all the pictures explains absolutely everything including the law of fives how to start a discordian cabal and instructions for preaching discordianism to christians quote a discordian is required during his early illumination to go off alone partake joyously of a hot dog on a friday this devotive caremony to remonstrate against the popular paganisms of the day of catholic christendom no meat on friday of judaism no meat of pork of hindic peoples no meat of beef of buddhists no meat of animal and of discordians no hot dog buns reviewette natural law or don t put a rubber on your willy robert anton wilson isbn x loompanics the author of the illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law natural morality objective reality and other pervasive myths witty and thought provoking work from someone who actually seems to know an argument from a hole in the ground quote since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless those of us of pragmatic disposition simply won t buy such dubious merchandise maybe remotely there might be something in such promotions as there might be something in the talking dogs and the stocks in arabian tapioca mines that w c fields once sold in his comedies but we suspect that we recognize a con game in operation at least we want to hear the dog talk or see the tapioca ore before we buy into such deals all of the books mentioned above should be available from counter productions in the uk or directly from the subgenius foundation or loompanics unlimited mathew what do you mean i am anyway dreamed i laid a toaster daddy caught me in the act can you take it devo
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article r voinnr q lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm so we re just cheap knock offs of the true atheists they must be theists in disguise in any event we don t need to create religious parodies just look at some actual religions which are absurd mand now mdeep thoughts m mby jack handey m mif you go parachuting and your parachute doesn t open and your friends are all watching you fall i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming m
alt.atheism	atheism survey i am doing research on atheism part of which involves field research here on the net the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief i would seriously appreciate it if each and every one of you would fill it out and mail it back to me at mtabbott unix amherst edu first of all i ve tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways with varying amounts of detail it s possible to give succinct answers to most everything but there s enough here to keep most of you typing for hours i m sure as much detail as you want to give me i mean it is great but it s also important for me to have as broad a base of individuals as possible so even minimal responses are far better than nothing it s a short survey if you just answer the questions without elaboration secondly i hope some of the questions don t come off as obnoxious i know that phrases like what would convince you of the existence of god imply that i am a seminary student intent on proving you all to be ignorant godless heathens in fact i m not too sure about the existence of a higher power myself so my use of god is a question of locution rather than ideology it s easier than just repeating a deity or higher power every time also i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like belief system although i know some of you might contend that you don t have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything i understand but you know what i mean think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across lastly thanks please fill out as much as you can in as much detail as you can and send them to me my research and i thank you where would you place your beliefs on the spectrum theism agnosticism weak atheism strong atheism feel free to elaborate on your specific beliefs in what if any religious tradition were you raised did you ever believe in the existence of a god several of the following questions presume that the answer to this is yes if you ve always been an atheist or at least never a theist you may have to modify the question answer somewhat how serious was your your family s involvement how and when did you start to doubt the tenets you were raised to believe how and when did your final break with your beliefs if any occur i realize that this is often more of an ongoing process than an event per se whatever the case just describe it in whatever detail you wish what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion to atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs to what extent do you think other atheists have influenced you in your beliefs did you come by your beliefs through discussion through independent means or by some combination of the two or other means are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs of the non existence of god etc or was it perhaps at least in part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc to what extent do you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena of the universe and of human existence anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs and where are they lacking as an explanatory method what would it take for you to question or change your beliefs what would convince you of the existence of god what would convince you of the plausibility of god s existence and so forth how dynamic are your beliefs are they constantly changing have they stayed more or less the same for some time are you involved in a career or education in science to what extent do you think science has influenced your beliefs issac asimov claimed that science was the new secular religion and that scientists are in a very real sense the new priesthood do you see the pursuit of science as having a quasi religious base or even a religious element this survey is intended to get data from a broad range of individuals but also to help me narrow down the field to a small group of people whose ideas and histories could be very useful to me would you be willing to have me on the basis of this survey write you to find out more about you and your beliefs if not fine your filling out the survey alone is great thanks again feel free to contact me if you have any questions about what i m doing with this data or if you have anything to say in addition to what i ve asked about above mark abbott mtabbott unix amherst ed
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution now with free ockham s razor inside sorry about the delay in responding due to conference paper deadline panic in article qsnqqinn nr senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes alarming amounts of agreement deleted i made my statement about ockums razor from my experiences in physics thanks for info in baysian statistics very interesting and i didn t know it before i follow your proof but i have one questions we have two hypotheses h and hg the latter is more complicated which by definition means p h p hg that complicated isn t in fact where p h p hg comes from it s more the other way around it s from p h p hg p hg where g is the complement of g and by axiom p anything so p hg so p h p hg in a sense hg is necessarily more complicated than h for any h and g so i may be splitting hairs but what i m trying to say is that irrespective of subjective impressions of how complicated something is p h p hg holds with equality if and only if p hg as you point out it s a very simple matter to show p x h p x hg p h x p hg x and thus h is to be preferd to hg now to say that h is as consistent with the data as hg is to say p x h p x hg can you elaborate some on this well p x a p x b means that x is as likely to be observed if a is operative as it is if b is operative this implies that observing x does not provide any useful information which might allow us to discriminate between the respective possibilities that a and b are operative the difference reduces to the difference between the unknown and unhelpful prior probabilities p a and p b p x a p x b p a x k p a and p b x k p b where k p x a p x p x b p x so a and b are equally consistent with the data in that observing x doesn t give any pointers as to which of a or b is operative in the particular case where a h and b hg however we know that their prior probabilities are ordered by p h p hg although we don t know the actual values and it s this which allows us to deploy the razor to throw out any such hg also in the real world it isn t as clear cut and dry it seems to me we can t always determine whether the equality p x h p x hg is true that s certainly true but the particular point here was whether or not a divine component actually underlies the prevalence of religion in addition to the memetic transmission component which even the religious implicitly acknowledge to be operative when they talk of spreading the word now it seems to me as i ve said that the observed variance in religious belief is well accounted for by the memetic transmission model but rather less well if one proposes a divine component in addition since i would expect the latter to conspire against wide variance and even mutual exclusion among beliefs thus my personal feeling is that p x hg isn t even equal to p x h in this case but is smaller h is memetic transmission g is divine component x is the variance among beliefs but i happily acknowledge that this is a subjective impression btw my beef with your baysian argument was not a mathematical one i checked most of your work and didn t find an error and you seem very careful so there probably isn t a math mistake i think the mistake is philosophical but just to make sure i understand you can please rephrase it in non technical terms i think this is a reasonable request i always try to look for ways of explaining physics to non physicist i m not a baysian statistician nor any type of statistician so this would be very helpful not that i m a statistician as such either but the idea is that both theism and atheism are compatible with all of the read my observations to date however theism of the type with which i am concerned also suggests that for instance prayer may be answered people may be miraculously healed both are in principle amenable to statistical verification and that god s may generally intervene in measurable ways this means that these regions of the space of possible observations which i loosely termed appearances of god s have some nonzero probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic since there is only so much probability available for each hypothesis to scatter around over the observation space the probability which theism expends on making appearances of god s possible must come from somewhere else i e other possible observations all else being equal this means that an observation which isn t an appearance of god s must have a slightly higher probability under atheism than under theism the bayesian stuff implies that such observations must cause my running estimate for the probability of the atheistic hypothesis to increase with a corresponding decrease in my running estimate for the probability of the theistic hypothesis sorry if that s still a bit jargonesque but it s rather difficult to put it any other way since it does depend intimately on the properties of conditional probability densities and particularly that the total area under them is always unity an analogy may or may not be helpful say that hypothesis a is the coin is fair and that b is the coin is unfair two headed i ve used a and b to avoid confusion with h heads and t tails then p h a total p t a p h b total p t b the observations are a string of heads with no tails this is compatible with both a fair coin a and a two headed coin b however the probability expended by a on making possible the appearance of tails even though they don t actually appear must come from somewhere else since the total must be unity and it comes in this case from the probability of the appearance of heads say our running estimates at time n are e n a and e n b the observation x n at time n is another head x n h the estimates are modified according to p h a e n a e n a e n a m p h and p h b e n b e n b e n b m p h now we don t know p h the actual prior probability of a head but the multiplier for e a is half that for e b this is true every time the coin is tossed and a head is observed thus whatever the initial values of the estimates after n heads we have n e n a m e a and n e n b m e b and since e k a e k b at any time k you can show that m and thus m hence the estimate for the fair coin hypothesis a must decrease at each trial and that for the two headed coin hypothesis b must increase even though both hypotheses are compatible with a string of heads the loose analogy is between unfair coin and atheism and between fair coin and theism with observations consistent with both a tail which would falsify unfair coin is analogous to an appearance of god s which would falsify atheism i am not claiming that the analogy extends to the numerical values of the various probabilities just that the principle is the same constant observation of no evidence for gods if evidence for them is at all possible under the respective theisms constantly increases the notional estimated probability that they don t exist it s important to draw a distinction between theism that could be supported or not supported by evidence and theism that can t given a theism for which evidence is in principle not possible it doesn t make sense to say lack of evidence supports the contrary view quite so but this type of theism is what i might call the g in the hg in terms of our ockham s razor discussion and i d bin it on those grounds so it depends upon your conception of this god if it s a conception like zeus who happened to come down to earth to play quite frequently then i agree with you lack of evidence for this conception of god is evidence that it does not exist but if your conception of god is one that does not make falsifiable predictions see below on falsifiable predictions then i disagree lack of evidence does not support a disbelief the hypotheses don t have to be falsifiable and indeed in my model the theism isn t falsifiable i used the phrase should obverse given any specific x theism does not make the prediction p x ht that s why i used the word should theism makes no predictions about any specific event i can only say i believe that god did such and such after such and such happens or i believe god will do such and such but for any given x i can never a priori say p x ht i can not even say this for the set of all x or some x this is what don t like about your use of probability we also have no way of assigning these probabilities i hold science to positivistic criteria if someone cannot tell me how to measure even in principle p x h then probability is not applicable to hypothesis h such is the case when h ht theistic and ha atheistic for example p x ha p x ha p ha what is p ha how do i measure it you don t have to we don t need in the above analogy to know any prior probabilities to deduce that the updating multiplier for the fair coin hypothesis is less than unity and that the corresponding multiplier for the two headed coin hypothesis is greater than unity you don t need to know the initial values of the running estimates either it s clear that after a large number of observations p fair coin approaches zero and p two headed coin approaches unity all you need to know is whether p x ha is larger than p x ht for observed x and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain events rendered possible not necessary under ht which are not possible under ha and all else is equal baysian statistics relies upon a series of observations but what if the hypothesis isn t amenable to observation and even for statements that are amenable to observation some observations are not relevant a sequence of observations must be chosen with care i m curious to know what types of observations x x you have in mind concerning theism and atheism any observations you like it really doesn t matter nor affect the reasoning provided that there are some possible observations which would count as appearances of god s examples of this might be a demonstration of the efficacy of prayer or of the veracity of revelation but any statement about p x h for general x still counts as a prediction of h if the theism in question ht says that prayer may be answered or that miracles may happen see my interpretation quoted again above of what god exists means then this is a prediction p x ht for such x it s what distinguishes it from the atheist hypothesis ha which predicts that this stuff does not happen p x ha for such x theism does not make the claim that p x ht for such x or i should say that my theism doesn t maybe i was too quick to say we had a common language you said that by the existence of god you mean the notion that the deity described by the bible and by christians does interact with the universe as claimed by those agents i agreed with this however i must be careful here i believe this i m not making any claims maybe i should have changed does to can there is an important shift of emphasis but any way since i only have a belief i cannot conclude p x ht for such x ok we ll downgrade does interact to may interact which would actually be better since does interact implies a falsifiability which we both agree is misplaced i don t think my theism makes predictions maybe i m not understanding what you mean by prediction could you explain what you mean by this word i ll explain but bear in mind that this isn t central all i require of a theism is that it not make the prediction appearances of god s will never happen as does atheism before somebody points out that quantum mechanics doesn t make this prediction either the difference is that qm and atheism do not form a partition predictions include such statements as prayer is efficacious implying if you do the stats you will find that prayer is efficacious or prayer is not efficacious or verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled i don t think we have any problems of misunderstanding here persistent observation of this stuff not happening consistent with ht though it may be is more consistent with ha as explained in the bayesian stats post even if ht god exists is unfalsifiable that s no problem for my argument other than that you have to let the number of observations go to infinity to falsify it asymptotically btw i do not consider an argument that requires an infinite number of observations as valid or rather that part of the argument is not valid we as existing humans can never make an infinite number of measurments and any conclusion that reilies on this i don t accept as valid that s fine i don t claim that theism is false merely that the finite number of observations available to me so far suggest that it is and that as i continue to observe the suggestion looks better and better renormalization stuff deleted in the bayesian stats post i assumed that theism was indeed unfalsifiable in a finite number of observations here s the relevant quote the important assumption is that there are some observations which are compatible with the theist hypothesis and not with the atheist hypothesis and thus would falsify atheism these are what i called appearances of god s but this need not be taken too literally any observation which requires for its explanation that one or more gods exist will count all other observations are assumed to be compatible with both hypotheses this leaves theism as unfalsifiable and atheism as falsifiable in a single observation only by such appearances of god s here is my problem with this for something to be falsifiable it must make the prediction that x should not be seen if x is seen then the hypothesis has been falsified now atheism is a word in oposition to something theism a theism aserts a belief and an atheism aserts a disbelief so there are certain atheisms that are certainly falsifiable just as there are certain theisms that are falsifable e g if my theism asserts the world is only years old and that god does not decieve then this has been falsified however the atheism that is in oposition to an unfalsifiable theism is also unfalsifiable i could be wrong on this statment contd i think you are an appearance of god s is sufficient to falsify atheism whereas in general the corresponding theism is unfalsifiable i ll think more about it until then here is a general question suppse x were unfalsifiable is not x also unfalsifiable no by way of a counterexample let x the coin is fair or more accurately so that not x makes sense the two sides of the coin are different this is unfalsifiable by tossing the coin even a string of heads is consistent with a fair coin and you have to go to an infinite number of tosses to falsify x in the limit its converse is falsifiable and is falsified when at least one head and at least one tail have appeared this is partly what s wrong with you baysian argument which requires observations x x n to be made there are simply no such observations that have a truth value in relation to the statement god exists now by use of your symmetry argument i can understand why someone would say since the statement god does not exist makes no predictions i will choose not to believe it but none the less this would be founded on a type of faith or if you don t like the word faith insert belief for which there is no falsifiable evidence instead i ll assume you meant god exists up there at the highlight but by our agreed definition of exists the statement makes predictions as i said above although it isn t falsifiable in a finite number of observations actually i mean god does not exist makes no predictions oops sorry mea culpa the truth of this statment actually depends upon which god you are refering to but i can think of some conceptions of god for which it is true but once again i m open to the posibility that i could be wrong so give me some examples of predictions of the statment god does not exist here is one that i can think of if true then there would be no healing or miricles but this can in principle never be determined one way or the other there are cases in which people seem to recover and are healed without the help of a doctor and for no known reason these situations do in fact happen they are consistent with a theistic hypothesis but in no way support such a hypothesis we agree here they are not inconsistent with an atheistic hypothesis i can t think of one prediction from god does not exist that isn t of this type but i might be missing something the rapture will not happen on october said rapture would have falsified atheism to my satisfaction had it happened although its failure to happen does not of course falsify any theisms other than those which specifically predicted it no phenomenon which requires the existence of one or more gods for its explanation will ever be observed that about sums the whole thing up bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re some thoughts healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes tammy see maddi i trimmed it healy well you re going to have to practice but you re getting the hang of it soon we re going to have to give you a new nickname try these on for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy r us healy tammy learning by doing healy maddi never a useful post hausmann maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes mand now mdeep thoughts m mby jack handey m mif you go parachuting and your parachute doesn t open and your friends are all watching you fall i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming m you fall if it opens too gravity it s not just a good idea it s the law dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re religion as cause was islamic authority over women scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote the same works for the horrors of history to claim that christianity had little to do with the crusades or the inquisition is to deny the awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute what it seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had no evil impacts on history that is absurd scott until this paragraph i would willingly amend my earlier statements since your point s are well made and generally accurate this last part though slips into hyperbole since i ve discussed my objections to such generalizations before i really don t feel i need to do it again if you haven t seen those posts ask maddi she saves everything i write bill
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article r idi e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than bcci would you care to explain why it was that when i said i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci you called me a childish propagandist yes sure because the only obvious reason anyone would make the jump from bcci to islamic bank is by associating islamic banking with muslim ownership but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank and the only reason one would generalize from a given islamic bank to all islamic banks is through a stereotype one x is bad therefore all x s are bad but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank next think you know there is a bosnia on tap but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article bb dba i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r j ak fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletion so mr conner is bobby mozumder a myth a performing artist a real moslem a crackpot a provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don t you tell us as a side note isn t it telling that one cannot say for sure if bobby mozunder is a firm believer or a provocateur what does that say about religious beliefs i think that s an insightful comment especially when at the same time we have people like bill projector conner complaining that we are posting parodies jon
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c ws s ns news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in r ioh t fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide sounds as though you are confused between what i want and what i think is morally right jon what do you mean would your idea still apply if i said i think it is ok to kill you because that is what i decided what i mean is what i said what i want does not automatically translate into what i think is right that is it does not translate that way for me if you reply that i think it is ok to kill you because that is what i decided then what that means is that for you what i want does translate into what i think is right it just doesn t translate that way for me jon
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes you asked me to look over here but i was on my way back anyway reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why your last statement why by which authority most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent why your last statement why are these things necessary and believe me a belief in terrorism can be both sincere and frighteningly consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense and thus may be incapable of behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral we may judge him immoral by our standards holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer trouble is this would sound just fine coming from someone like hitler too i do not mean any comparison or offence david try substituting the social minority of your choice for sociopath hitler and murderer no logical difference someone like you vs someone like hitler zero sum frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma reply to tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest faith and dogma are dangerous agreed a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion it is hard for me to understand but quite a few professional scientists and philosophers are theists sure religion has many good qualities it encourages benevolence and philanthropy but also intolerance and superstition i m not sure that in the balance it is not detrimental wouldn t it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist sure would david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i m not in a position to say since i know nothing about the situation that does not in my estimation qualify me as having my head up my ass bob i never accused you of having your head up your ass it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass i was accusing the original poster benedikt i believe of being so impaired after insult gregg resorts to lies in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again that s was the original answer while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not insinuated benedikt
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher benedikt
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article r jcinnt g lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes correction hard atheism is a faith yes can be a faith like weak atheism we had that before benedikt
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article r sn r horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism gullibility by the way is one of them and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects answer the question what the absolute set of morals is people agree on like they would agree on a football being a football benedikt
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article c racm q darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes i can t recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act a particlar way i think that you re attempting to manufacture a contradiction a world creator god does the moment it creates the world and to sayi that you can t recall anyone is even below your usual standard of a arguing my argument is based on quite usual theistic assumptions namely god is perfect god is all knowing god sets the rules the rules don t work for whatever reason because of its omniscience the god has known it in advance deletion to say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar all you can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course it is not a question of grammar it is a question of modelling has been discussed in the wonderful time when you were not posting to this group when a is contradictorily defined a does not point to an instance in reality unless there is more information in the definition of a that allows me to find it somehow however when the contradictory attribute is said to be essential ie has not got that attribute not the a i am looking for i can conclude that a does not exist your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief than the object of belief may lead to a rat s nest of unnecessary complexity i think i know what you re implying but i d like to see your version of this better alternative just the same that s quite like i predict coins falling predicted happened heads tails tails tails heads tails heads tails i take and dismiss the rest because of the unnecessary complexity the other evidence causes for an easy to understand explanation of why humans believe in gods read manwatching by desmond morris benedikt
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes i don t regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made which affect the lives of innocent people but i do regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and i regret the suffering caused by those decisions i m afraid i m going to have to kill you don t worry though as a loving christian i guarantee that i will regret the fact that i have to kill you although i won t regret the actual killing if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action or are you just setting up a strawman i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait false dichotomy diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective that s because they weren t even attempted but what about those who didn t support hitler s dreams of conquest it s not as if they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got in the elections of and that was the last chance the german people got to vote on the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you so much you want to know why it bothers me that thousands of innocent people were maimed or killed by bombing at the end of ww when it was far from clear that such bombing was necessary the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is and why is it that way who set things up to be that way this was happening before the gulf war why didn t we send in the bombers to east timor why aren t we sending in the bombers now probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another no just the ones that have oil or the ones that look like they might make a success of communism nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places i don t see that getting un forces to east timor is any harder than getting them to iraq tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture is still widespread in china why aren t we stopping them in fact why are we actively sucking up to them by trading freely with them tell me how we could stop them and i ll support it i for one do not agree with the present us policy of sucking up to them as you put it i agree that it is deplorable fine write to your congressman and to president clinton china s status as most favoured nation comes up for renewal in june point out that the us shouldn t be offering favourable trading terms to such a despicable regime i doubt anything will happen clinton s keener on trade sanctions against europe unbelievable comments about the rodney king case deleted the media is not totally monolithic even though there is a prevailing liberal bias programs such as the macneil lehrer news hour try to give a balanced and fair reporting of the news there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush any idea how many kill files you just ended up in i an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people you a supposed christian are arguing that it s ok to kill innocent people so long as you get some guilty ones as well hardly i didn t say that it s a good thing tm to kill innocent people if the end is just unfortunately we don t live in a perfect world and there are no perfect solutions if one is going to resist tyranny then innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die i didn t say it is ok it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary the ends justify the means eh you having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that i am in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the war you certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist the same tired old misunderstanding moral relativism means that there is no objective standard of morality it doesn t mean you can t judge other people s morals christ on a bike how many times have we tried to hammer that into your head where s your christian love where s your absolute morality oh how quick you are to discard them when it suits you as ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day i will stand before jesus and give account of every word and action even this discourse in this forum i understand the full ramifications of that and i am prepared to do so i don t believe that you can make the same claim obviously not as i am an atheist i don t think you d get on with jesus though he was a long haired lunatic peace nik was he not and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm so the point was why make a big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing in ww right unfortunately for you it turned out that my opinions on the matter were entirely consistent in that i condemned the bombing of dresden too i think you re being a bit glib with your explanation of the blanket bombing policy too you make it sound as though we were aiming for military targets and could only get them by destroying civilian buildings next door as i understand it that is not the case we aimed deliberately at civilian targets in order to cause massive damage and inspire terror amongst the german people civilians suffer but less civilians suffered in this war than any other iany other in history oh come on with wars like the falklands fresh in people s minds that sort of propaganda isn t going to fool anyone the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk yes bunk the us lost servicemen in ww over four years and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting yes and what about the millions of casualties the russians suffered it s hardly surprising the us didn t lose many men in ww given that you turned up late mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein but it s still happening that s the entire point only last month john major hailed it as a great victory that he had personally secured a sale of arms to saudi arabia the same month we sold jet fighters to the same indonesian government that s busy killing the east timorese it s all very well to say oops we made a boo boo better clean up the mistake but the us and uk keep making the same mistake they do it so often that i can t believe it s not deliberate this suspicion is reinforced by the fact that the mistake is an extremely profitable one for a decrepit economy reliant on arms sales so it s really not the gulf war you abhor so much it was the u s s and the west s shortsightedness in selling arms to hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right no i thought both were terrible mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it oh very neat dismiss everything i say unless i can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt something which you yourself admit i can never prove to your satisfaction thanks i ll stick to squaring circles mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining he s an oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia is right after all i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they stayed out of all conflicts or issues i bet you wouldn t you d love it but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do with their ideals mathew
alt.atheism	re strong weak atheism acooper mac cc macalstr edu turin turambar me department of utter misery writes did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god in a word yes mathew
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i bought a copy of the satanic verses when there was talk of the british government banning it there s nothing interests me in a book more than making it illegal however it s still sitting on my shelf unread perhaps i ll get round to it soon i ve still got a pile of lem bulgakov and zamyatin to go through i don t find nearly enough time to read in fact there are far more interesting things to do than i can ever find time for how anyone ever manages to be bored is beyond me if i didn t have to sleep maybe i could manage it mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism don t mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to condemn without having even your most basic facts straight if you want some examples go back and look at your previous posts where you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini s supposed infallibility why shouldn t i mind it sounds as if you are proceeding with just the sort of obfuscation you have accused me of i always preceeded my statements with it is my understanding that now i have made my claim clear with regard to the issue of both the twelve imams and with khomeini s supposed claim of infalibility after hearing your seemingly more knowledgable claim that khomeini made no such claim regarding himself i have withdrawn that portion of my statement regarding that claim however i have received no such response regarding the infallibility of the twelve imams there is nothing obfuscationist about my claims which are always made clearly i have received no such clear response regarding the twelve imams but rather abstruse references to unusual metaphysical natures and other such opaque concepts often used by people to camoflage the baselessness of their positions particularly in matters of theology these are just the sorts of concepts used by christian churches the perverting of their religion as salaam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam so that the non muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them and if they are not in contradiction with the basics of islam how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur an discussing it here is fine by me shall we start a new thread called say infallibility in islam and move the discussion there i think this should be illuminating to all let me make a first suggestion when arabic words especially technical ones become of use let us define them for those especially atheists to whom they may not be terribly familiar please also note that though i did initially refer to khomeini as a heretic for what i understood to be a claim rejected by you since of personal infallibility i withdraw this as a basis for such a statement i conditionally retain this reference in regard to khomeini s advocacy of the thesis of the infallibility of the so called twelve imams which is in clear conflict with the qur an in that it places the twelve imams in a category of behavior and example higher than that of the muhammad in that the qur an shows that the prophet was clearly fallible as well as it appears given your abstruse theological statment regarding the natures of the twelve imams placing them in a different metaphysical category than the remainder of humanity with the possible exception of muhammad something which verges on the sin of association as salam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article bb b i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out it s not a fallacy note the if if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value we re not doing ethics yet benedikt then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial observation for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold i have however given an example of a value people agree on and explained why people will agree that their freedom is valuable i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics the if assertion above and that is what i m talking about there isn t a point in talking about ethics if this can t be agreed one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give i m not doing morals ethics if we can t get past values as i say the only cogent objection to my freedom example is that maybe people aren t talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable maybe not and i want to think about this some especially the implications of its being true further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories garbage that s not proof either the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher name that fallacy frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon on tue apr gmt cfairman leland stanford edu carolyn jean fairman said cjf agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt asks about mormons cjf although i don t personally know about independent sudies i do know cjf a few things cjf he writes there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist cjf one of the more amusing things in the bom is a claim that a cjf civilization existed in north america aroun where the mystical plates cjf were found not only did it use steel and other metals but it had cjf lots of wars very ot no one has ever found any metal swords or cjf and traces of a civilization other than the native americans i was talking to the head of the archeology dept once in college and the topic of mormon archeology came up it seems that the mormon church is or was big on giving grants to archeologists to prove that the native americans are really the lost tribe of israel and other such bunk the archeologists would shake their head knowingly while listening to them take the grant and go off to do real archeology anyway ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	science and theories as per various threads on science and creationism i ve started dabbling into a book called christianity and the nature of science by jp moreland a question that i had come from one of his comments he stated that god is not necessarily a religious term but could be used as other scientific terms that give explanation for events or theories without being a proven scientific fact i think i got his point i can quote the section if i m being vague the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re age of reason was who has read rushdie s on wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik said ks this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the ks bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this ks man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted ks place to daltons to various other places ks when he asked for this book the well educated american book store ks assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section ks or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they ks should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly ks said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not ks a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books ks such is the life and times of america years after the revolution sigh now i don t feel so bad searching for a copy in bookstores has been a habit of mine for at least two years now i spend a lot of time browsing through bookstores new and and used and i ve not once seen a copy now i know all i do is pick up a phone and order the darned thing but come on this is america and he s one of the founding fathers and no one carries his books sure you can find common sense but i think that s because it s required reading for most colleges i did find one hole in the wall bookstore where the owner said that they usually carry one or two copies but that they were currently out i haven t been back since so i don t know if he was telling the truth or not sigh ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re science and theories in article c u bq j news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there sounds like more of the same gods were used to describe almost everything in the past as we come to understand the underpinnings of more and more the less we credit to a god now the not so well understood elements at least by the author includes quarks and tectonic drift i guess that s better than describing the perceived patterns of stars in the sky as heroes being immortalized by the gods kinda sounds like old earth creation it seems that life did indeed evolve from a common ancestor what caused that initial common ancestor are we going to hear another debate on causeless events explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc mac michael a cobb frank doss the above stated words are my opinions and do not reflect the opinions attitudes or policies of my employer or any affilliated organizations
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb d c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r tqo ook horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor that s your claim now back it up i consider your argument as useful as the following belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief is a factor in fanaticism true and utterly useless note this is any belief not belief in gods tiring to say the least i have backed it up read the first statement i have read it conspicuous by its absence is any evidence or point the latter is the fallacy of the wrong analogy saying someone believes something is hardly an information about the person at all saying someone is a theist holds much more information further the correlation between theists and fanatism is higher than that between belief at all and fanatism because of the special features of theistic belief truth by blatant assertion evidence gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say if you believe that you re incredibly naive you frank o dwyer are living in a dream world i wonder if there is any base of discussion left after such a statement as a matter of fact i think you are ignorant of human nature even when one starts with something one does not believe one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says to give you the benefit of the doubt prove your statement the onus of proof is on you sunshine what makes you think that theist leaders believe what they say especially when they say one thing and do another or say one thing closely followed by its opposite the practice is not restricted to theism but it s there for anyone to see it s almost an epidemic in this country just for instance if it is harder for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle why is the catholic church such a wealthy land owner why are there churches to the square inch in my country now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism no some of it comes from features which some theism has in common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn t implied by what you say before because you re trying to sneak in innate features of all theism the word you re groping for is some bogus again not all theism as is is fanatic however the rest already gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and theism and further the specialty of other theistic beliefs allows them to switch to fanatism easily it takes just a nifty improvement in the theology truth by blatant assertion gullibility by the way is one of them no shit sherlock so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have as opposed to the case you are trying to make because there is more about theism that the attraction to gullible people causing the correlation and the whole discussion started that way by the statement that theism is meaningfully correlated to fanatism which you challenged indeed i did as i recall i asked for evidence what is the correlation of which you speak and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer i said it reads like a warm up to that that s because it s an irrational and bogus tirade and has no other use than creating a nice them us split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either side of church walls blah blah blah i am quite well aware that giving everyone their rights protects me better from fanatics than the other way round of course other people are always fanatics never oneself your wish to slur all theists seems pretty fanatical to me it is quite nice to see that you are actually implying a connection between that argument and the rise of fanatism so far it is just another of your assertions so you can do it define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed o k it s oval it s still begging the question however and though that certainly is allowed it s not rational and you claiming to be rational and all another of your assertions no proof no evidence just claims hey i learned it from you did i do good at the risk of repeating myself and hearing we had that before we didn t hear a refutation before so we re back deal with it you can t use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful someone who thinks reason is crap won t buy it you see that is unusually weak even for you the latter implies that my proof depends on their opinion somehow who does not accept that there are triangles won t accept pythagoras wow that s an incredible insight i don t have to prove them wrong in their opinion it is possible to show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims unreliable or even absurd statements to be information totally circular and totally useless their wish to believe makes them believe things are judges by their appeal and not by their information it makes you feel good when you believe that may be good for them but it contains zillions of possible pitfalls from belief despite contrary evidence to the bogus proofs they attempt truth by blatant assertion i ve seen as many bogus proofs of the non existence of gods as i have of their existence rational systems by the way does not mean that every data has to come from logical analysis the point is that the evaluation of the data does not contradict logic it easily follows that such a system does not allows to evaluate if its rational in itself yes it is possible to evaluate that it is rational in a system that is not rational by the fallacies of that system but since the validity of the axioms is agreed upon that has as little impact as the possibility of a demon ala descartes this just doesn t parse sorry so far it just a matter of consistency i use ratiional arguments to show that my system is consistent or that theirs isn t the evaluation of the nor this predictions does not need rationality it does not contradict however your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly stream of consciousness typing what is that supposed to mean the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say that at some point people always wind up saying this datum is reliable for no particular reason at all example i am not dreaming nope there is evidence for it the trick is that the choice of an axiomatic basis of a system is difficult because the possibilities are interwoven one therefore chooses that with the least assumptions or with assumptions that are necessary to get information out of the system anyway i d like to see this alleged evidence one does not need to define axioms in order to define an evaluation method for usefulness the foundation is laid by how one feels at all that s not how one feels about it i see you have no irrational beliefs but then fanatics never do do they compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works imo any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example they don t use theism when doing science or it wouldn t be science please note that subjective data lend themselves to a scientific treatment as well they just prohibit formulating them as objective statements ergo nothing is objective fair enough the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition of interesting but sure now show that a belief in gods entails the further contents of which you speak why aren t my catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don t believe in it maybe it s the conjunction of b asserts b and jail kill dissenters that is important and the belief in gods is entirely irrelevant it certainly seems so to me but then i have no axe to grind here the example with your neighbours is a fallacy that your neighbours don t says little about others and there were times when exactly that happened nope it s not a fallacy it just doesn t go to the correlation you wish to see and tell me when it is not irrelevant why are such statements about amalekites and idolaters in the holy books please note that one could edit them out when they are not relevant anymore because gods don t err what does that say about that message excuse me the holy books and how come we had theists saying genocides ordered by god are ok a god is the easiest way to excuse anything and therefore highly attracting to fanatics not to mention the effect interpretation by these fanatics can have on the rest of the believers happens again and again and again a god is neither the easiest way to excuse anything nor the only way frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world this can be avoided in at least two ways by leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they do not know what it is is either lying or so out of touch with humanity as to be undeserving of a reply if the good is undefined undefinable but you require of everyone that they know innately what is right you are back to subjectivism no and begging the question see below by defining the good solely in terms of evaluative terms ditto here an evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the part of the person making it again incorrect and question begging see below at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder of course by denying that subject object is true dichotomy please explain how this helps i don t see your argument i don t see yours it seems to rest on the assertion that everything is either a subject or an object there s nothing compelling about that dichotomy i might just as well divide the world into subject object event it even seems more sensible causation for example is an event not a subject or an object furthermore if subject object were true dichotomy i e everything is either a subject or an object then is that statement a self evident truth or not if so then it s all in the mind of the beholder according to the relativist and hardly compelling add to that the fact that the world can quickly be shoved in its entirety into the subjective category by an idealist or solipsist argument and that we have this perfectly good alternate set of categories subject object event which can be reduced to subject object quality without any logical difficulty and why yes i guess i am denying that self evident truths are all in the mind of the beholder if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true all of it if nothing then no moral judgements are true this is a thing that is commonly referred to as nihilism it entails that science is of no value irrepective of the fact that some people find it useful how anyone arrives at relativism subjectivism from this argument beats me this makes no sense either flew is arguing that this is where the objectivist winds up not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed in nothing except science materialism revolution and the people i m referring to ethical nihilism the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity and if those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion is not true likewise if the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion is not true why should one choose a set of preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism oh no reason this is patently absurd and also not the position of the subjectivist as has been pointed out to you already by others ditch the strawman already and see my reply to mike cobb s root message in the thread societal basis for morality i ve responded over there btw i don t intend this as a strawman but as something logically entailed by relativism really any ethical system where values are assumed to be unreal it s different to say relativists say than relativism implies frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart yeah but these were not the wives the wives came from nod apparently a land being developed by another set of gods brian
alt.atheism	re room for metaphor i can and do take religious writings as a metaphor for life i do this with all sorts of fiction from beowolf to deep space nine the idea is to not limit yourself to one book screen out the good stuff from what you read and to remember that it is all just a story you sound buddist to me brian
alt.atheism	re the universe and black holes was re years in article apr iastate edu kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote in article r hj inn c gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well suppose a probe emitting radiation at a constant frequency was sent towards a black hole as it got closer to the event horizon the red shift would keep increasing the period would get longer and longer but it would never stop an observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing but it wouldn t vanish exp t never quite reaches zero that s kind of what i meant to be more precise given any observer in any single position outside the event horizon would that observer ever in any way be able to detect the probe having crossed the event horizon yes unless the observer is at rest with respect to the singularity at infinite distance away but an observer on a close approach to the bh will see the particle go in in finite time peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now mark schnitzius schnitzi eola cs ucf edu university of central florida
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes nah i will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists have up their sleeves whatever i might have suspected is actually quite riddle me this if a god s exist why on earth should we grovel why on earth should we give a damm at all what evidence do you have that if such a creature s exist it deserves anything beyond mild admiration or sheer hatred for what it they have done in the past whichever god s you care to pick that is assuming any records of their actions are correct religon offers a bliss bubble of self contained reality which is seperate from the physical world any belief system can leave you in such a state and so can drugs god s are not a requirement only if you remove such useless tappestry can you build a set of morals to build a society upon it is that or keep on exterminating those who don t believe or converting them eric new viruses right to life virus won t allow you to delete a file regardless of how old it is if you attempt to erase a file it requires you to first see a counselor about possible alternatives
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c rekj y darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy bill i suppose for the same reason that you do not believe in all the gods why should any be any different i use the same arguments to dismiss koresh as i do god tell me then why do you not believe that koresh is the son of god by logic it is equally possible that koresh is jesus reborn adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article c rlyz mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion prove it i am an atheist it doesn t mean i am for or against abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control an obvious effect of homosexuality is non procreation that unlike your statement is a fact please prove that a homosexuality is defended as means of population control b being atheist causes you to hold these beliefs i defend homosexuality because a what people do with their bodies is none of my business b i defend the equal rights of all humans do you insist that the only values are biological define values prove your statement something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose prove your statement electrons are waves electrons are particles i believe in both i have physical proof of both i have no proof of god tm only an ancient book that is not indicative of the existence of a being with omnipotence or omnipresence and by your own argument christians don t exist i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint first of all your earlier statements have absolutely nothing to do with your question why did you post them to show that athiests besides not existing your view are more humane than christians other religions secondly i am very much for the control of population growth the logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance of contraception but of course this is outlawed sometimes literally by religion since if it can t create more followers it will die i bill adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell jsn is jeremy scott noonan
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again holy temple of mass slack ncsu edu my used underwear consumption is legal tender in po box bbs countries raleigh nc warning i hoard pennies bob probably not the jesus freak s post is probably jsn psuvm penn state is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers i use to go there vomit and it was the reason i left they even had a group try to stop playing rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens wdb v rock music in the dining t
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article aa therose pdx com alan olsen p f n z fidonet org alan olsen writes from alan olsen p f n z fidonet org alan olsen subject some thoughts date wed apr rh from house helios usq edu au ron house rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university of southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it rh i know i shouldn t get involved but rh bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was rest of rant deleted this is a standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed so far they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance i just thought it necessary to help defend the point that jesus existed guys jesus existed if he didnt then you have to say that socrates didnt exist cuz he like jesus has nothing from his hands that have survived only plato and others record his existance many others record jesus existance including the babylonian talmud sorry guys the argument that jesus may not have existed is a dead point now he did whether he was god or whether there is a god is a completely different story however most of them try it using the very flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it but those writers use very flawed sources if they are real sources at all some are not when will they ever learn to do real research instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores rh righto dan try this one with your cornflakes rh the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was rh crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he rh said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as rh follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able rh to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and rh kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i rh believe he did make the sun stand still rh niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation rh be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rh rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right rh away rh therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have rh been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you there s a difference between believing in the existence of an entity and loving that entity god could show me directly that he exists and i d still have a free choice about whether to love him or not so why doesn t he kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence to benedikt roseneau in article qv at fb horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes the information of that is invariant under your child being a son or a daughter and singing about santa claus wasn t your argument that there has to be more more than what more than we assume which is what exactly a most of the people i debate disagree with my premises hardly debate otherwise your favorite point that we sense so it hs to be there has been challenged more than once when i did it you said good question and did not address it i ve addressed it your caricature is not my favourite point needless to say at length in a previous outing and am currently discussing it with eric rescorla b there s little point in responding the same points everywhere i do my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply you still repeat that point i do curious since i believe that was the first time i ve ever made it not that repetition would imply much more than your seeming inability to understand you ask me the same question i ll give you the same answer especially when in this case i know the answer to be true i do my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply but if everyone is making the same points and i m pushed for time then i try to respond what i believe are the strongest formulations of those points if that doesn t include your post tough this is usenet and life is tough all over c since there s a great deal of responses this isn t always feasible i do my best to honestly answer questions put to me you drop out of debates with some posters and continue with others you appear with the same issue every n months and start the dicussion at the beginning again i ve only debated this issue twice in a a and occasionally in t a the first was in response to simon clippingdale s positive assertion that disagreement about moral values inexorably acknowledges that morals are relative it doesn t now simon has dropped out of the debate for some time i take that to mean that he is either busy or bored with the topic i certainly do not accuse him of dishonesty do you d i can t always understand what you say neither can t i understand you all the time usually one asks what the other side means usually one does usually you re clear but sometimes you aren t and i ask you what you mean other times you seem to get extremely uptight and i feel that i m debating against line noise sometimes i get tired and sometimes i have other things i d rather do again this is usenet and life is tough all over you re going to have to deal with it e you re starting to get personally insulting i may not even put your name in the hat in future that s supposed to be a threat no that s a simple statement and an assertion that i am not answerable to those who offer me baseless insults for example those who accuse me of lying about my personal beliefs while also complaining that i don t answer their questions like that you what you sense is evidence for the sensed to be there if only everything would be so easy what almost everyone senses is evidence for the sensed to be there because to all intents and purposes it is there we had that argument for one your claim that everyone senses it is not founded and you have been asked to give evidence for it often and then the correct statement would be it is reason to assume that it is there unless evidence against it has been found i have no problem with the second statement i have provided an argument that almost everyone senses that freedom is valuable the only cogent objection to this came from jon livesey and was offered by some other people too essentially that people disagree about fuzzy concepts such as freedom it s a good point and i m thinking about it your trick is to say i feel a is not right and so do many i know therefore a is absolutely right it neglects the possibility that these people consider a to be right as an effect of the same process restricting the claim of its absoluteness to those who have been subject of that process in other words refutes it you make the ontological claim you have to prove it nonsense my trick is to say i feel that a is better than b and so does almost any disinterested person i ask best evidence is therefore that a really is better than b subject to the assumption that we can establish to our mutual satisfaction what we mean by a and b and that the resulting system of values is self consistent now get this really is better is an idealisation a fictional model in the same sense that real material existence is a fictional model it may or may not correspond to something true it is nonetheless a useful assumption far more useful than the equally assumed relativist trick to wit i feel that a is better than b and so does almost any disinterested person i ask however if even one person disagrees that a is better than b or if even one person dissents from mutually agreed definitions of a and b then it is the case that b is better than a for that person and nothing more can be said i say this is useless because it inexorably implies that a supermajority seeking to maximise a cannot morally take action against someone seeking to maximise b e g a terrorist to do that would be to claim that a supermajority s carefully considered morality would be better than the terrorist s which would of course be true but a no no for an ethical relativist to claim that ethical relativism implies anything else is simply weasel words and an example of compartmentalisation to rival anything in the world of religion for a similar argument i sense morality is subjective it does not hurt me to do things that are considered to be objectively wrong by others if you mean that you do things that some others consider objectively wrong and it turns out not to be the case for you of course this is possible it is neither evidence for subjectivism nor evidence against objectivism except sometimes in a pragmatic sense it serves as a counterexample for that everything that is subject to judgements is absolute and as long as you don t provide evidence for that there is something universally agreed upon there is no reason to believe your hypothesis i ve done this freedom with the proviso that i still have to answer jon s objection that fuzzy concepts like freedom have no objective meaning further in order to make morality absolute universal or objective you would have to show that it is independent of humans or the attributes above look quite misleading not really what evidence is there that anything exists independently of humans you ll be hard pressed to find any that isn t logically equivalent when applied to values an analogous set of premises would be premise some people believe that objectively speaking the shortest route from my house to a bar is through the main entrance of the estate and down the malahide road premise i checked it out and found that the shortest route from my which is much closer you would never deduce from these that there is no shortest route from my house to a bar yet that is seemingly how you derive your relativist claim using premises which are logically no different no morals are a matter of belief so far the people still believe that the shortest way is through the main entrance no agreement on belief here and in order to have an analogy you would have to show that there is a shortest way and that there is a method to convince everyone of that it is the shortest way indeed in other words your analogy works only when one assumes that your premises are right in the first place if not it is a fallacy and if this were an argument for objectivism you d be right it isn t though it s a demonstration that the argument you gave me is neither argument against objectivism nor argument for relativism your gimmick is to assume in the first place that values aren t real and to use this to prove that values aren t real in other words you beg the question against me frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes actually i rather like your idea perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled washington when the us invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii or any number of other places wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know we liberated grenada liberate is the way an invader describes an invasion including if i m not mistaken the iraqi liberation of kuwait never invaded nicaragua only with more word games can you say send in the marines so if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where we cross someone s border you are right out of but normally invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation if some nation invades the u s virgin islands would they be invading the virgin islands or the u s so from this point of view your score falls to out of mexico panama oh good word games if you let the aggressor pick the words there s scarcely ever been a reprehensible military action what s a peace nik is that somebody who doesn t masturbate over guns n ammo or what is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik no it s someone who believes in peace at all costs in other words a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too if it could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler to wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone that s a convenient technique much seen on alt atheism define those who disagree with you according to a straw man extreme that matches virtually nobody is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik you ask well it depends on what your values are if you value life over liberty peace over freedom then i guess not but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself if you d rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant s heel then yes it s bad to be a peace nik very noble and patriotic i m sure the fine young americans who carpet bombed iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon destroyed iraq s sewer and water infrastructure from the safety of the sky or further or who bulldozed other iraqi infantry into their trenches or more importantly the commanders who ordered them to were just thrilled to be risking death if not risking it by much in the defense of the liberty of well wealthy kuwaitis can t have those oil fields under a tyrant s heel if that tyrant is antagonistic to us interests the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view having pigeon holed peace niks in this context people who disagree with me about the conduct of the gulf war into peace at all cost hitler supporting genocide abetting wimps you can now express righteous indignation when they refuse to fit this mold and question the conduct of the war on legitimate terms how dare they they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace what rank hypocrisy yes hypocrisy indeed those violent peace niks care to list an example here all to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense wow instant s nostalgia of course peace nik itself is a s cold war derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism with godless pinko communists yes indeed i felt my freedoms mightily threatened by iraq jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in r n hfj horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes deletia in case anybody hadn t noticed frank and i are debating objective morality and seemingly hitting semantics secondly how can i refute your definition i can only point up its logical implications and say that they seem to contradict the usage of the word objective in other areas indeed by your definition an objective x is an oxymoron for all x i have no quibble with that belief other than that it is useless and that objective is a perfectly good word it may be that being a non native english speaker i ve misunderstood your usage of objective and tried to debate something you don t assert my apologies i m at a loss to imagine what you really do mean though how many ages can the universe have and still be internally self consistent i d be amazed if it was more than one how many different moral systems can different members of society have indeed single individuals in some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age of the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has a real age independent of my beliefs about it why wrong point the age of the universe has no direct effect on humanity s sticking power in the way the moral system of a society can have i m saying the universe has a real age because i see evidence for it cosmology astronomy and so on i say this age is independent of people s opinions of it because i know different people have a lot of different opinions in the matter yet empirical tests consistently seem to give roughly the same results the age of the universe like most scientific facts can be emirically verified through means that ll give the same result no matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may be on the largish side this assumes that the universe has a real age or any kind of reality which doesn t depend on what we think i can t see how it does that put a creationist to the task of performing the tests and calculations see to it s he makes no blatant errors in measuring or calculating and the result of the test will be the same why should an extreme biblical creationist give a rat s ass about the means of which you speak because logically consistent empirical tests contradict their opinion if those tests were just my opinion then their own tests which would then be their opinion would contradict mine even if we conducted said tests in identical manner no they don t which i take as showing these tests have some validity beyond our opinion of them i ve heard of no way to verify morality in a consistent way much less compute the errors of the measurement care to enlighten me the same is true of pain but painkillers exist and can be predicted to work with some accuracy better than a random guess map the activity of nerves and neural activity if you mean physical pain you have a sharp point i ll give you that but you still haven t given me a way to quantify morality i wrote elsewhere that morality should be hypotheses about observed value we agree hypotheses however can change i hold that there is no ultimate hypothesis of morality towards which these changes could gravitate but that they could be changed in any way imaginable producing different results suitable for different tasks or purposes if a moral system makes a prediction it will be better if that can be tested better and worse are almost always defined in the context of a moral system your prediction will always be correct within that moral system what you need now is an objective definition of good and bad i wish you luck people s ideas about the age of object x are not objective you can have any idea you like and i can t stop you universae and their ages is another ballgame they are what they are and if you dislike some detail of them that s a problem with your opinion of them sure assume an objective reality and you get statements like this isn t that what you re doing when assuming an objectively real morality besides what exactly is provably wrong with my statement i claim that morality is an opinion of ours and as such subjective and individual if i m wrong then some more or less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back up this positive claim of existence can you back up your positive claim above no that s because it s an assumption i make the same assumption about values on the basis that there is no logical difference between the two and the empirical basis of the two is precisely the same claiming there is no objective morality is suddenly a positive claim besides i think i can lend some credence to my claim ponder different individuals both fully functional as human beings and members of society but yet with wildly different moral codes if morality was objective at least one should be way off base but yet hir incorrect morality seems to function fine how come as for producing these individuals it might be easiest to pick them from different societies say an islamic one and some polynesian matrilineal system for example if such still exist deletia testing for footballs on desks now take a look at morality see anything if so please inform me which way to look and why to look that particular way as opposed to some other get my drift no just look are you claiming never to know what good means one thing is good under some circumstances because we wish to achieve some goal for some reason other times we wish to do something else and that thing is no longer so clearly good at all some things are hard to make good because we d seldom if ever wish to achieve the sort of goal mass murder would lead one into still the aztecs were doing fine until the spaniards wiped them out i almost always know what good means sometimes i even know why i never claim this good is thereby fixed in stone immutable that s a simple matter of proving the track record of the scientific method i think it s great and should be applied to values i may be completely wrong but that s what i conclude as a result of quite an amount of thought yes me too and i ve tried a thing or two down that line it doesn t look good for objective values to me at all disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius writes battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now more to the point how long are atheists going to be insulted by the disgraceful addition of religious blah blah to our money and out pledge what s big noisy and has an iq of operation rescue
alt.atheism	re mottos to replace in dog we trust andrew hilmer hilmera storm cs orst edu wrote at the risk of beginning a cascade i ll start with a possibly cheesy good ol uhmericun our shield is freedom or considering what our government has been doing for the past years perhaps this would be more appropriate debt holy temple of mass slack ncsu edu my used underwear consumption is legal tender in po box bbs countries raleigh nc warning i hoard pennies bob
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article r ek uo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article r ubl bd horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r o a qe fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes noting that a particular society in this case the mainland uk has few religously motivated murders and few murders of any kind says very little about whether inter religion murders elsewhere are religiously motivated no but it allows one to conclude that there is nothing inherent in all religion or for that matter in catholicism and protestantism that motivates one to kill motivates or allows the christian bible says that one may kill under certain circumstances in fact it instructs one to kill under certain circumstances i d say the majority of people have a moral system that instructs them to kill under certain circumstances i do get your distinction between motivate and allow and i do agree that if a flavour of theism allows atoricities then that s an indictment of that theism but it rather depends on what the certain circumstances are when you talk about christianity or islam then at least your claims can be understood it s when people go to a general statement about theism that it falls apart one could believe in a god which instructs one to be utterly harmless for my part i conclude that something else is required i also happen to believe that that something else will work no less well without religion any easy them us will do and what does religion supply if not an easy them us not necessarily love thy neighbour does not supply a them us it demolishes it and my definition of religion is broader than my definition of theism as i have explained by insisting that even the murder of four labourers chosen because they were catholics and who had nothing to do with the ira by protestant extremists is not religously motivated i think what you are saying is that you simply will not accept any murder as being religiously motivated no what about that guy who cut off someone s head because he believed he was the devil incarnate that was religously motivated what about the protestant extremists who killed four catholic labourers that wasn t religiously motivated not in my opinion if they were doing it because of some obscure point of theology then yes but since all protestants don t do this nor do they elect extremists to do it for them it s just too broad too say religion did this i m saying that the causes are far more complex than that take away the religious element and you d still have the powerful motives of revenge and misguided patriotism you know when most catholics and protestants worldwide say stop the killing one might listen to that especially when you claim not to read minds also the murders ensuing from the fatwa on mr rushdie the inquisitions and the many religous wars what s so special about these exceptions isn t this all just a grab bag of ad hoc excuses for not considering some other murders to be religiously motivated what s the general principle behind all this the general principle is that it s fairly clear to me at least that religion is the primary motivator enabler whatever of these it s not nearly so obvious what s going on when one looks at ni apart from violence of course it s not an abstract argument northern irish protestants say we don t want to be absorbed into am officially catholic country now what are we supposed to do are we supposed to reply no that s only what you think you don t want mr o dwyer assures us that no matter what you say you want you really want something else you think the unionists wouldn t mind being absorbed into a non catholic country other than the uk of course it s a terrible thing to lose a mind maybe the word country is there for more than just kicks i certainly don t believe that the unionists are in it for god i think they wish to maintain their position of privilege i m still listening to what they say and you are still telling us your version of what they think you read minds and i don t you ve speculated on my motives often enough and you don t take my statements of my own beliefs at face value therefore your claim not to read minds has no credibility with me sorry i also note that you fail to answer my question it just looks to me very much like you have an axe to grind especially as you are indeed ignoring what most protestants say which is stop the killing the people you refer to are properly described as unionists not protestants as for their position of privilege what is that if not religion based it is based on politics bigotry and heartless extremism none of these things are synonymous with religion though there is certainly some overlap frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius writes i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now due to a discussion on this group some time ago the theists would more likely take an asimov quote out of context and paint him as the biggest bible thumpin god fearin atheist hatin christian you ever laid eyes on right up there with einstein bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	more best of a a rapture october what to do in case you miss the rapture i stay calm and do not panic your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred is to panic but to do so is absolutely useless now if you had wanted to get right with god before the rapture you could have but you chose to wait now your only chance is to stay on this earth and to endure to the end of the tribulation but he that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved matthew ii realize you are now living during the great tribulation the great tribulation is a seven year period starting from the time of the rapture until christ s second coming also know as the time of jacob s israel s trouble jere and daniel s seventieth week dan this period will be unparalleled in trouble and horror iii gather as many bibles as you can and hide them soon after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community the revived roman empire bibles will be confiscated and owning a bible will be tantamount to treason the bible however will be your most valuable possession during the tribulation iv read the bible like you have never read it before in your life since all of your bibles may be confiscated even if you are careful it is imperative that you read the word until you memorize whole passages and can quote them it is especially important to read daniel luke matthew revelation and amos for these books describe the events you can expect to unfold before you v pray like you have never prayed before in your life pray until the power of god comes strongly upon you pray and pray and pray only by reading the word and praying will you gain the spiritual strength to be able to withstand the torture you may have to endure for the sake of christ vi do not take the mark at any cost even in fit means you and your loved ones die as martyrs after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community he will institute a world economic system designed so that you cannot buy sell or eat unless you take his mark or the number of his name money will be useless and he causes all both small and great rich and poor free and slave to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name here is wisdom let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast for it is the number of a man his number is revelation the antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter in all of humanity think of the various ways people have been tortured and killed in the past such as the holocaust or maybe the crusades m you cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the antichrist s rule it will be much worse than anything in history matt i saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of god and for the testimony which they held and a white robe was given to each of them and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer until both the number of the fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were was completed revelation his targets will be jews and christians who do not worship his image or take the mark on their forehead or right hadn and i saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to jesus and for the word of god who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on the hands revelation he will use every form of torture and humiliation in order to force you to renounce christ nor will he hesitate to use your loved ones against you even your children torturing and killing them in front of you so that you will be tempted to take the mark if you take the mark or worship the antichrist or his image however you will be consigned to the second death which is the lake of fire sung about so eloquently by johnny cash m you cannot be redeemed it is better to endure torture for a short while and gain eternal life then sic to endure eternal torment in the ring h h h h lake of fire if anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand he himself shall also drink the wine of the wrath of god which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation an sic he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb revelation and probably in the presence of season ticket holders special hats given to the first at the stadium m vii set a plan in motion for survival although you may not be able to hide from the antichrist s government until the end of the tribulation all of the time you gain in hiding is important for your spiritual growth and strengthening since only those who are extremely strong in christ can suffer and die for his sake the first thing to do is move out of the city and into a rural or mountainous area for the antichrist s control will come last to the least populated areas take a good radio or tv with you so that you can stay attuned to events and discern the time schedule of the tribulation as you can see on the weather map heavy currents of tribulation will sweep into our area by daybreak expect delays on i outbound and perhaps school closings m store water and food because you will not be able to purchase anything without the mark water in lakes and streams will be polluted by radioactive waste from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood get a good water filter m bring different types of clothing for all seasons as well as flashlights batteries generators and first aid supplies in short learn how to survive and live off the land as the pioneers did viii trust no one there will be secret agents everywhere spying for the antichrist s government be on the lookout perot supporters take note m ix watch for the antichrist it is important to realize who the antichrist is and what he is up to for he will deceive many into thinking that he is a great world leader who will bring peace and prosperity to a world hungry for it we can infer from daniel certain characteristics of this man popular during the first three and a half years of the tribulation he will dominate the airwaves he will be physically appealing highly intelligent with christ like charisma and personality an international politician military tactician and economic expert his word will be peace he will make a treaty with the jews which he will break after three and a half years he will have such supernatural power that a mortal wound to his head will be healed even the very elect will be deceived if you do not pray and read the bible you too will be deceived dominate the airwaves perhaps howard stern or rush limbaugh m the antichrist will have a companion the false prohphet sic who will make an image in the likeness of the antichrist and cause it to speak all who refuse to worhsip sic the image will be killed the final three and a half years will be absolutely insane with demonized spirits everywhere x do not give up hope the seven years of tribulation will end with the triumphant return of christ the antichrist will be defeated be steadfast and endure and you will be rewarded greatly in heaven start reading the bible and praying fervently now the salvation of your sould depends upon it determine that come what may you will not take the mark or worship the antichrist you still have a chance to be saved or remain saved but this time you will have to be faithful unto death may god find you ready in the hour of his glorious return mike cluff christianity is stupid v qs ubvms or mike luick ubvms give up negativland ub language perception laboratory bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re are atoms real in article c ue t g k news rich bnr ca bcash crchh nosubdomain nodomain brian cash writes petri and mathew your discusion on the reality of atoms is interesting but it would seem that you are verging on the question is anything real that is since observation is not reliable how can we say that anything is real i don t think this was the intention of the original question since you now define out the word real so that nothing can meet its criteria just a thought brian ps rainbows and shadows are real they are not objects they are phenomenon an interesting question would be if atoms are objects classical or phenomenon neo quantum or what i ve been following this train of talk and the question of dismissing atoms as being in some sense not real leaves me uneasy it seems to be implied that we obseve only the effects and therefore the underlying thing is not necessarily real the tree outside my window is in this category is observe the light which bounces off of it not the tree itself the observation is indirect but no more so than observations i have made of atoms also what about observations and experiments that have been routinely done with individual atoms i am thinking in particular of atom trapping experiments and tests of fundamental quantum mechanics such as the quantum zeno effect where an individual atom is studied for a long period of time some of the attempts at quantum mechanical arguments were not very satisfying either one has to be carefull about making such arguments without a solid technical background in the field what i read seemed a little confused a quite a red herring anyway if the purpose of a public debate is to make the audience think it worked after doing so i m willing to try to defend the following assertion if anyone cares atoms are as real as trees and are real in the ussual every day sense of the word real
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article r voinnr q lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd you don t need any counterfeit athiest s myth to make religion appear absurd you need only read any of friendly christian bill conner s posts jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar i light of yesterday s events in waco texas i guess the answer to your questions are very obvious if you think waco is just one example think back to in jonestown where more than people died for a lie deletions correction i think it was also contrary to earlier belief it is now widely accepted that not all committed suicide but were actually killed in the end they did die for a lie but some not out of conviction alone thought i try to make this point clear disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	islam and sufism was re move the islam discussions short reply to kent sandvik s post remarking how it is strange that somehow sufism is related to islam as to him they seem quite different if one really understands islam it is not strange that sufism is associated with it in fact sufism is in general seen as the inner dimension of islam one of the roots of the word islam is submission islam denotes submission to god sufism is the most complete submission to god imaginable in annihilating oneself in god i am not a sufi or on the sufi path but have read a lot and recently have been discussing a number of things with others who are on the sufi path fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes great respect or love for a particular person does not equal a form of theism fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au hmm what about jesus sure a person could have great respect for jesus and yet be an atheist having great respect for jesus does not necessarily mean that one has to follow the christian or muslim interpretation of his life fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re atheism survey i replied to this query via e mail but i think there are some issues that are worth discussing in public mta mtabbott unix amherst edu wrote i am doing research on atheism part of which involves field research here on the net the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief i would recommend you to take a look at your dictionary alt atheism faq files to notice that atheism is not a belief system and what is common to all atheists is not a belief but a lack of belief in deities i cannot imagine how anyone could do research on atheism without paying careful attention to this issue first of all i ve tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways with varying amounts of detail it s possible to give succinct answers to most everything but there s enough here to keep most of you typing for hours i m sure imho this is a poor method to do any real survey although i m sure the replies might keep you amused for hours also i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like belief system although i know some of you might contend that you don t have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything i understand but you know what i mean think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across no i do not know what you mean if you are surveying our individual philosophies fine but that s not strictly atheism atheism is not just another godless version of the theistic explanations for life the universe and everything it is not a belief system and it could hardly be called a philosophical system once more atheism is characterised by lack of belief in deities do not twist the meaning or assume that we have some kind of philosophy we all agree on some comments on your questions what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion to atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs i would also like to hear more about this have we been able to convert anyone are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs of the non existence of god etc or was it perhaps at least in part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc this question contains a contradiction in terms beliefs cannot be acquired rationally if they could they would not be beliefs you also seem to have rather strange ideas of how people become atheists those who are alienated from religion do not necessarily become atheists they just think very little about religion it seems it requires a considerable time of honest inquiry to find out that religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question quite odd how can lack of belief be acquired when did i acquire lack of belief in the easter bunny i did believe in santa though to what extent do you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena of the universe and of human existence anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs and where are they lacking as an explanatory method this question does not make any sense since atheism does not deal with these issues it is not a worldview or a philosophy or a belief system sigh why haven t i seen a good well thought survey in the usenet for three years and what is the point of doing surveys in the net anyway just to abstract some opinions petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb b i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r sn r horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor that s your claim now back it up i consider your argument as useful as the following belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief is a factor in fanaticism true and utterly useless note this is any belief not belief in gods gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say if you believe that you re incredibly naive now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism no some of it comes from features which some theism has in common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn t implied by what you say before because you re trying to sneak in innate features of all theism the word you re groping for is some gullibility by the way is one of them no shit sherlock so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have as opposed to the case you are trying to make and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer i said it reads like a warm up to that that s because it s an irrational and bogus tirade and has no other use than creating a nice them us split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either side of church walls define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed o k it s oval it s still begging the question however and though that certainly is allowed it s not rational and you claiming to be rational and all at the risk of repeating myself and hearing we had that before we didn t hear a refutation before so we re back deal with it you can t use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful someone who thinks reason is crap won t buy it you see your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say that at some point people always wind up saying this datum is reliable for no particular reason at all example i am not dreaming compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works imo any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition of interesting but sure now show that a belief in gods entails the further contents of which you speak why aren t my catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don t believe in it maybe it s the conjunction of b asserts b and jail kill dissenters that is important and the belief in gods is entirely irrelevant it certainly seems so to me but then i have no axe to grind here frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed
alt.atheism	re alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument here s a suggestion for the logical argument faq i don t think it s covered though the fallacy probably has a better name than the one i used how about it mathew inconsistency and counterexample this occurs when one party points out that some source of information takes stand a which is inconsistent with b there are two variations in which b is either a mutually agreed on premise or else a stand elsewhere from the same source the second party fallaciously responds by saying see the source really does say b it s right here this reply does not refute the allegation of inconsistency because it does not show that the source only says b example of the first type the koran says unbelievers should be treated in these ways we can both agree these are immoral the koran clearly says in this other passage that unbelievers are not to be treated that way example of the second type there are two biblical creation stories you re wrong since the bible clearly describes the creation as description on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	religion as cause was islamic authority over women bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu writes my stuff deleted i don t have to make outrageous claims about religion s affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe of a a all i have to do point out that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate atheism bill you seem to have erroneously assumed that this board has as its sole purpose the validation of atheism it doesn t this board is used to discuss atheism as a philosophy to share posters experiences regarding atheism to debunk various theisms and theism as a whole to share resources relating to atheism and even to socialize with others with similar views and of course with the number of theists who come here to preach it is also used to argue the case for atheism at no time have i made any statement that religion was the sole cause of anything what i have done is point out that those who do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately if you want to accuse people of lying please do so directly the phrase deliberately mistaken is rather oxymoronic to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect the two forms of theism most often discussed here these days are christianity and islam both of these claim to make their followers into good people and claim that much of benefit to humanity has been accomplished through their faiths imho they are right the american friends service committee quaker catholic relief services bread for the world salvation army soup kitchens and mother theresa spring to mind can someone with more knowledge of islam supply the names of some analagous islamic groups when mother theresa claims that her work is an outgrowth of her christianity i believe her her form of theism ascribes to her deity such a benevolence toward humanity that it would be wrong not to care for those in need the point is that such a philosophy does have the power to change the behavior of individuals if it is widespread enough it can change societies the same works for the horrors of history to claim that christianity had little to do with the crusades or the inquisition is to deny the awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute what it seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had no evil impacts on history that is absurd scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	books edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal actually i ve got an entire list of books written by various atheist authors and i went to the largest bookstore in my area pittsburgh and couldn t find any of them what section of the bookstore do you find these kinds of books in do you have to look in an alternative bookstore for most of them any help would be appreciated i can send you the list if you want thanks nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu the fate of the country does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot box once a year but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	re college atheists nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future i would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus in the real world tm it s easier for theists well people in general really to lock themselves into a little bubble where they only see and talk to those people who are of the same opinion as they are in college you are constantly surrounded by and have to interact with people who have different ideas about life the universe and everything it is much much harder to build a bubble around yourself to keep everyone else s ideas from reaching you so in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in their beliefs over four years there is nowhere to run david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu the fate of the country does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot box once a year but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr nic csu net davec silicon csci csusb edu dave choweller wrote in article apr bnr ca rashid writes stuff deleted the point of my post was that rushdie was not being condemned solely for the words in his book although this was certainly a contributing factor it was the whole series of actions of rushdie and his publishers following the publication of the book and the initial media spotlight placed on the book that in large part led to the fatwa the kind of fatwa levelled against rushdie is not lightly placed and there are any number of anti islamic writers both within and outside the islamic world who have not had fatwas made against them here someone who adds fuel to an explosive situation might be charged with incitement to riot if people die in the rioting the charges against him might become even more serious how can rushdie be blamed for the deaths of people who are demonstrating against him the deaths should be blamed on the people who dealt with the demonstrations or on the demonstrators themselves if they were violent to what lengths will you go to justify this barbaric behaviour against rushdie once the rushdie situation exploded into the media the muslim voice on the matter of the book was effectively restricted to short video bytes showing the dramatic highlights of muslim demonstrations for every twenty or so newspaper magazine articles interviews etc supporting rushdie there would appear one muslim voice this person was usually selected based on how dramatic and incoherent he was not on his knowledge of islam or the situation at the time this approx twenty to one ratio continued throughout the escalation of the crisis with rushdie in the central spotlight as the man of the moment the valiant defender of everyman s right to free speech decoupled from responsibility as an aside it s interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom of speech went up some books defaming certain ethnic and religious groups continued to be banned here it was felt that they injured the sensibilities of these groups and presented a false image which could promote feelings of hate towards these groups for muslims this kind of double standard was annoying rushdie saw this spotlight as a golden opportunity to lash out at organized islam and he did so with admirable verbal skill the only kind of islam which rushdie finds palatable is what he calls a secular islam an islam separated from it s qur an it s prophet god its legislation and most importantly from any intrusion into any political arena fine rushdie made his views known the muslim s made their anger at his book known the scale of the whole affair erupted into global proportions it was by this time already a political situation affecting governments as well as individuals the situation was a serious one with far reaching political implications at the centre of this turmoil was rushdie throwing fuel on the fire engaged in a personal crusade that made him oblivious to any sense of caution now you may feel that the person in the centre of a worldwide storm such as this has no responsibility has no reason to exercise restraint of any kind has no obligation to perhaps step back momentarily out of the spotlight till matters calm down perhaps you even feel that he is justified in boldly defying the anger of all those who dare to take umbrage at his literary work no matter what insult they find within it perhaps you see him as a kind of secular heroic knight mounted on the his media steed doing battle with the dragon of islamic fundamentalism well khomeini saw him as a disingeneous author who grew up in a muslim atmosphere knew well what muslim s hold dear who wrote a book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions to slander insult and attack islam and its most notable personalities who when faced with a situation that became a worldwide crisis continued with his mischief in the world stage of the media who even after people were injured and killed because of the magnitude and emotion of the situation continued his mischief instead of having the good sense to desist khomeini saw the crisis as mischief making on a grand scale mischief making that grew in scale as the scale of the crisis enlarged the deaths of muslims around the world and rushdie s continued media mischief even after this was the triggering factor that seemed to decide khomeini on putting a stop to the mischief the person at the centre of all these events was rushdie he was the source of the continuing mischief all media support government support was just that support the source was rushdie and his publishers who were nothing short of ecstatic at the publicity and were very happy to see rushdie constantly in the media the islamic rulings that deal with people who engage in this kind of grand scale mischief making was applied to rushdie you re attempts at justification are not doing the image of islam any good i have made no attempts at justification only at explanation image is the chief concern of muslim apologists for islam and for rushdie if muslims willingly relegated themselves to becoming a sub culture within a larger secular culture such that the secular principles and laws had precedence over the laws of islam then i have no doubt that islam would then be thought to have a good image principally because it would by and large reflect the secular image a good image usually means be more like me your attempts at totally exonerating rushdie reflect exactly the attitude that resulted in the polarization brought about by the crisis in iran the situation was monitored for many months when rushdie kept adding fuel to the flames through the free worldwide voice that the media gave him the situation was monitored more seriously when even after many deaths occured worldwide rushdie still did not desist the fatwa was pronounced when behaving like a total jerk endangers lives and the jerk sees this and still insists on his right to behave like a total jerk he has the rug jerked out from under him if the muslims didn t make such a big fuss over the book like issuing death threats and killing publishers no one would have heard of it the fatwa came later much later if rushdie didn t mouth off so much in the media the fuss would have died down no one would have been killed no fatwa would have been passed the whole episode would have fizzled away
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes yes the qur an discusses this point in several ways some of them quite directly for example it says that if god were to appear them there would be no need for faith and belief as the evidence would be definitive ah excellent so why doesn t she appear to me i m a little weak in the blind faith department besides she doesn t even really need to appear how about oh say a little tip something like put your all on in the at the dog races perhaps in a dream or vision how do we know that muhammed didn t just go out into the desert and smoke something would a person who was high write so well and with such consistency i m afraid i don t know arabic i have only read translations i wouldn t know it if it were well written consistent though is one thing the quran is not and have you read it in arabic besides some of my best writing has been done under the influence of shall we say consciousness altering substances and how do we know that the scribes he dictated the quran to didn t screw up or put in their own little verses they d have to be very good to do so without destroying the beauty and literary quality of text arabic text yes so how do we know they weren t very good again assuming that the quran is beautfully written and why can muhammed marry more than four women when no other muslim is allowed to muhammad did not exceed the number after the revelation regulating the number of wives a man could marry but before it ok i retract this point although i might still say that once he knew he should have done something about it although i think the biggest insult to islam is that the majority of its followers would want to suppress a book sight unseen on the say so of some holy guy not to mention murder the author i agree but is it really true that this is the case i haven t interviewed all muslims about this i would really like it if this were false but i can t take it on your say so what are your sources another case of judging principles on the basis of those who claim to follow them what other basis do we have to judge a system especially when we can t get a consistent picture of what islam really is do i believe khomeini do i go by the imam of the mosque in mecca or perhaps the guy in new jersey or perhaps you say i should go only by the quran ok whose translation and what about things like and wherever you find idolators kill them s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence i saw a hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews appearently the cursades a religious war agianst the muslilams in the holy land sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe among the supporters of the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews genocide is caused by theism evidence sd
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c zu k fzd news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes on what basis can we say that the actions of another society as per hitler comment are wrong ultimately it rests with personal opinion in my opinion why does majority make right the question doesn t make sense to me maybe it would be better to ask what makes a democracy better than for example a totalitarian regim dan
alt.atheism	re high times a comin verdant ucs umass edu sol lightman writes my theory though yet unproven is that this is due to simple envy no its not its due to the fact that there are two issues here religion and religion religion is personal belief system religion is a memetic virus people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from religion religion people that want to save others are firmly entrenched in religion memoids rule of not practicing religion is to shut the fuck up unless you discuss it politely this means that the motive behind the conversation is not only your self gratifying wish to spread the word religion is something that ultimately comes from within a person and reflects their value judgements religion is something that is contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements other than perhaps i think i ll be brainwashed today religion is a drug i believe you can discuss religion however the post that started this off was not intented as discussion it was more a proclamation of someones religion if you think i m talking about censorship or that i m closeminded you haven t understood this i don t have any problem with the discussion of religion its just religion that i can t stand
alt.atheism	re high times a comin rubble leland stanford edu adam heath clark writes it seems a very large part of christianity is based on the notion that it is the right religion and that just about any other way of looking at the universe is flat out wrong in the old days we had the inquisition and the burning of heretics now we have pat buchanan trying to start some cultural war because he can t stand to live in the same country as all these other non god fearing people its a survival trait there are only a fixed number of resources people for religions to inhabit the doctrines of intolerance and not using birth control are devices whereby the meme of the capital r religion of christianity gains a larger share of the population than its memetic competitors
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes dan i m concerned that you are in grave spiritual danger because of your stubborn refusal to love and accept into your heart the mighty invisible pink unicorn nice parody deleted i shall pray for you in fact brother i cast out the demon which binds you in the name of the mighty invisible pink unicorn dan you must have faith then you better pray for me too because i believe that the mighty invisibile pink unicorn does not exist one being cannot be both pink and invisible the demon or should that be daemon that keeps me from believing and saving my soul is named logic bill mayne
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it when it first came out and i liked it at the time i still sorta kinda thought of myself as a muslim and i couldn t see what the flap was all about thank you i now know at least that though i may be on drugs at least i m not the only one the writing style was a little hard to get used to but it was well worth the effort coming from a similar background rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family and moved to england i grew up in new delhi it made a strong impression on me and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english the yaar at the end of a sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc yes this took some getting used to of course not having an indian connection no knowledge of hindi etc this was not trivial for me i did have thanks to the wonders of the net a glossary to satanic verses posted to rec arts books by vijay raghavan which explains a lot of the indian english constructions indian culture references even the islamic references jahilia submission the context of the satanic verses incident etc what i have only covers the first couple of hundred pages but it helped me get into the flow of the novel i can mail this to anyone interested if anyone has portions after part i if they exist i d like to get those jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re burden of proof in r b hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes if i make a statement that god exists loves me etc but in no way insist that you believe it does that place a burden of proof upon me if you insist that god doesn t exist does that place a burden of proof upon you i give no proofs i only give testimony to my beliefs i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs what is your reaction to people who claim they were abducted by space aliens some of these people say i was abducted experimented on etc if we insist that these aliens don t exist is the burden of proof placed on us these people can give no hard facts but can give a lot of testimony to back up their beliefs replace space aliens with elvis big foot blue unicorns and we have a larger percentage of the population than i like to think about sometimes i wonder if reality really is a different experience for everone
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism john e king king ctron com posts a whopping one liner the modern theory of evolution is so inadequate that it deserves to be treated as a matter of faith francis hitching i have a few points to make about the above posting science is not based on and does not consist of quotes from either real or alleged experts critical reasoning evidence and if possible experimentation are necessary creationists frequently display a massive confusion about this by merely quoting both non experts and experts alike some of the latter quotes are in fact false and steadfastly refusing to follow any kind of rigorous scientific procedure this strongly suggests that a their claims completely lack any scientific merit and b they are aware of this fatal deficiency of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent you have failed to identify hitching and the surrounding context of his statement why is that if hitching is a scientific illiterate then the quote would merely display his profound ignorance of evolutionary biology creationists are frequently known to quote real scientists out of context and to fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute to legitimate scientists of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies of the modern theory of evolution would be a much more powerful argument than a contextless one line quote from an unidentified nobody it is also important to note that disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate claims any more that disproving that the earth is shaped like a hockey puck proves that it is a hyperbolic paraboloid creationists seem rather fond of diving head first into this logical fallacy of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent since evolution is central to virtually all of modern science an attack on evolution either the fact or the theory really represents an attack on science while the theory will unquestionably continue to evolve b the fact of evolution will not ever go away creationists lost the battle long ago more than years in fact but are simply too willfully ignorant and irrational to acknowledge the fact of course you may not actually be a creationist and you may not really be that ignorant warren kurt vonroeschlaub kv iastate edu asks neither i nor webster s has ever heard of francis hitchings who is he i like hitchings am not to be found in webster s b francis hitchings is a scientifically illiterate creationist or perhaps he is just playing the part of one who wrote a quite ignorant book attacking evolution the neck of the giraffe in that publication he quotes a creationist jean sloat morton using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could not have formed by chance thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution the two are quite independent but also concluding with a non sequitur i e the conclusion does not follow pp hitchings also misquotes richard lewontin in an effort to support creationism pp hitchings book was reviewed by national park service ecologist david graber in the los angeles times and repeated in the oregonian the article was titled giraffe sticks scientific neck out too far excerpts include francis hitchings is not a biologist he goes after darwin like mark antony after brutus he flips from scientific reasoning to mysticism and pseudo science with the sinuosity of a snake oil salesman he suggests a mystical organizing principle of life using the similarity of organs in different creatures as evidence sic note that the last statement above is actually evidence for evolution not against it if john e king is quoting from this reviewed book it wouldn t surprise me much it s also interesting that king had nothing to add i e he only posted a quote uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article c a s dvi mailer cc fsu edu dekorte dirac scri fsu edu stephen l dekorte writes i saw a hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews appearently the cursades a religious war agianst the muslilams in the holy land sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe among the supporters of the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews genocide is caused by theism evidence heck i remember reading a quote of luther as something like jews should be shot like deer and of course much catholic doctrine for centuries was extremely anti semitic are you so sure that your truth and your justice are worth more than the truths and justices of other centuries simone de beauvoir where is there a certainty that rises above all doubt and withstands all critique karl jaspers rice university will rice college
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article r e vinnkn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important yes well make it ethics deal with individuals morals deal with groups well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways please describe these number of ways in detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise just look at how human behavior mimics animal behavior i couldn t even begin to list all of the similarities many of the dissimilarities are due to our high intelligence please describe these number of ways in detail then explain any contradictions that may arise i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success define difficult i don t understand what you don t understand the sentence yes it s possible but it is difficult humans survived in the wild for hundreds of thousands of years no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral so if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldn t be destructive to the survival of the species most animals that exhibit homosexuality are actually bisexual answer the question keith is homosexuality detrimental to the survival of the species kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re bayesian statistics theism and atheism in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes in article quei mb horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes i write imagine that alterian dollars turn up in your bank account every month suppose further that this money is being paid to you by a your big hearted alterian benefactor or b a bug in an alterian atm let s suppose that this is a true dichotomy so p a p b trouble is alterius is in a different universe so that no observations of alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn t possibly afford it now let s examine the case for a there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any such thing as a big hearted alterian benefactor however p exists b h a b p not exists b h a b on the grounds that lack of evidence for is evidence against when we have a partition like that we dismiss hypothesis a turning therefore to b we also find no evidence to support that hypothesis on the same grounds as before we dismiss hypothesis b the problem with this is that we have dismissed all of the possible hypotheses and even though we know by construction that the money arrives every month we have proven that it can t because we have dismissed all of its potential causes that s an extremely poor argument and here s why premise this money is being paid to you by either a your big hearted alterian benefactor or b a bug in an alterian atm thus each monthly appearance of the bucks should it happen is an observation on alterius and by construction is evidence for the existence of either the benefactor or the bug in the atm premise no observations on alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn t possibly afford it you forgot to include this my premise is actually premise the cardinality of the set of possible observations on alterius is one this is clearly contradictory to the first not if you state it properly trouble is on the basis of premise you say that there can be no evidence of either the benefactor or the bug but the first premise leads to the conclusion that the appearance of the bucks should it happen is evidence for the existence of either the benefactor or the bug voila a screaming contradiction with my highlights sc but in a strawman argument there is only evidence for oneof benefactor bug no observation to distinguish benefactor from bug is possible that is not evidence for bug and neither is it evidence for benefactor nor is true to say that this hypothetical universe appears exactly as if there were no benefactor bug two statements both would be false this is still contradictory it reduces to alterian dosh arriving in my account is due to benefactor or bug this is not evidence for benefactor neither is it evidence for bug meaning that it doesn t lend more weight to one than to the other therefore no evidence can exist for benefactor and no evidence can exist for bug but relies on a shift in meaning from when you say paraphrased in that this is not evidence for benefactor for example what you mean is that it s no more evidence for benefactor than it is for bug yes that s what i mean in however you ve shifted the meaning of evidence for benefactor so that it now means absolute evidence for benefactor rather than relative evidence for benefactor w r t bug not really i meant evidence that would tend to one over the other i think this is just a communications problem what i am trying to say in my clumsy way is that while i buy your theory as far as it relates to theism making predictions prayer your rapture example i don t buy your use of occam s razor in all cases where a in my example one couldn t dismiss benefactor or bug on the grounds of simplicity one of these is necessary to explain the dosh i brought up the one by one dismissal process to show that it would be wrong to do so from what you re saying in this post it seems you agree and we re talking at cross purposes is still in contradiction to some sums may help with b benefactor b bug d dosh arrives in account implies p b b d assuming that p bb d so it s either the benefactor or a bug which is responsible if the bucks arrive but not both then p b b d p b d p b d so p b d p b d but implies that p b d and p b d no this isn t what i meant p b d and p b d with necessarily no new observation we ve already seen the dosh to change those estimates i was trying to say again in my clumsy way that it would be wrong to assign probability to either of these and that s precisely what use of the razor does in the case of gods gods are one class of hypothesis there are many others belonging to a set of hypotheses one of which is necessary to explain something which otherwise would not be satisfactorily explained it can be thrown out or retained on grounds of non rational preference not of science or statistics alternatively one could chuck out or retain the lot on the grounds that the answer can t be known or that the notional probability estimates are effectively useless being equal agnosticism weak atheism as they do when the set m is filled by the universe is caused by x where x is gods pink unicorns nothing etc and no observation tends to one conclusion over the other exactly the point i was making i think so we don t throw out any of these contrary to your assertion above that we do some people do simon and they think they are doing excellent science my sole point was that they aren t only observations which directly contradict the hypothesis h i i e x where p x h i can cause p h i to go to zero after a finite number of observations only in this case do we get to throw any of the hypotheses out exactly my point though i may have been unclear you said the diametric opposite which i guess is the source of my confusion i was merely trying to illustrate the incorrectness of doing so what i m trying to say is that while you are correct to say that absence of evidence can sometimes be evidence of absence this does not hold true for all or perhaps any versions of theism and it isn t true that those for which it does not hold can be discarded using the razor on the contrary those for which it does not hold are exactly those which can be discarded using the razor see my post on the other branch of this thread then you seem to be guilty of the contradiction you accuse me of if the razor holds for gods then it holds for all like hypotheses which means that you re assigning p x h i for all i though we ve already established that it s not correct to do so when sum p x h i over all i simply put anyone who claims to have a viable proof of the existence or non existence of gods whether inductive or no is at best mistaken and at worst barking mad luckily i make no such claim and have specifically said as much on numerous occasions you wouldn t be constructing a strawman here would you frank although that doesn t of course rule out my being barking mad in any case i could be barking mad in my spare time with apologies to cleese et al but i think you miss the point once again when i say that something is evidence against an hypothesis that doesn t imply that observation of the said something necessarily falsifies the hypothesis reducing the estimate of p h data to zero if it reduces this quantity it s still evidence against h no i got that i m talking about the case when a you re clearly correct when a and i m not constructing a strawman though it s certainly possible that i ve misunderstood what you re saying however by any standards a system that says when a gods are highly unlikely and when a gods can be dismissed using the razor is a system purporting to be an inductive proof that gods either don t exist or are unnecessary to explain any or all phenomena in my experience systems such as this including those which purport to prove that gods exist always contain a fallacy upon close examination if that s not what you re saying then please put me straight frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i believe that there s a year period from time of death until a person can be on a commemorative stamp it was broken once for lyndon johnson i think but other than that it has held for awhile of course we can still start now the elvis stamp was petitioned for ages and things really moved once it got past the year anniversary of his death carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article r ou u horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes i ll be leaving in june that s because i m going back to my university alt atheism is banned there stupid theist intolerance sad isn t it anybody has any idea how i can circumvent this problem frank s solution deleted if you have access to telnet contact nyx cs du edu it s a public access unix system completly free and all you need to for access is a verifiable form of id i think he requires a notarized copy of a picture or a check or some such kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re age of reason was who has read rushdie s sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted place to daltons to various other places when he asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books such is the life and times of america years after the revolution on a similar note a good friend of mine worked as a clerk in a chain bookstore several of his peers were amazing one woman in particular a customer asked her if they had the autobiography of benjamin franklin who s it by was her first question then is he still alive then is it fiction or non fiction finally my friend intervened and showed the guy where it was it makes one wonder what the standards of employment are scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	re strong weak atheism in c rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew writes did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god in a word yes mathew mathew could you let us know when this happened so i can see if my version is as up to date as possible i try to re save the faqs once in a while but otherwise i ignore their regular postings so i wouldn t generally notice such a change and i like to stay current thanks scott
alt.atheism	a problem with omnipotence i recall a discussion i had heard years ago it went something like this the problem with omnipotence at least as i perceive it as personified by the christian god ideal is that it is potentially contradictory if a manifestation such as god is truly infinite in power can god place limits upon itself some stuff i can t recall then some other questions i think i recall correctly can god unmake itself can god make itself assuming it doesn t yet exist has god has always existed or is it necessary for an observer to bind all of gods potential quantum states into reality was god nothing more than a primordial force of nature that existed during the earliest stages of universal inflationary creation is god a vacuum fluctuation given a great enough energy density could we re create god would that make us god and god something else some more stuff i don t recall concerning creating god followed by is god self aware is it necessary that god be self aware is god a living entity is it necessay that god be a living entity is god unchanging or does it evolve any comments post them so that others might benefit from the open inquiry and resulting discussion kyle
alt.atheism	atheism 
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation oh fuck off actually i just think he s confused i m going to hell because i m gay not becuase i don t believe in god i wonder if that means i can t come to tammy deans picnic kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok because i m the daddy that s why
alt.atheism	re requests in article c qllg bc mailer cc fsu edu mayne pipe cs fsu edu william mayne writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes didn t the church get lightning rods banned in several european countries in the eighteenth century because it was widely believed that they interfered with god s striking down of blasphemers i seem to remember that this was more common in eastern europe i don t know about eastern europe but according to bertrand russell writing in science and mysticism i think though it could have been another book said that preachers in colonial boston attributed an earthquake to god s wrath over people putting up lightning rods which they had been preaching against as interference with god s will being deprived of lightning bolts as a method to get at sinners he evidently resorted to sterner measures no smilies i am not making this up i m sure you are not after the san francisco earthquake a couple of years ago there was a flurry of traffic on talk religion misc about how this was the result of the notorious homo this that and t other in the city the fact that the earthquake was actually down the road in santa cruz watsonville didn t seem to phase them any jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic kent sandvik and jon livesey made essentially the same response so this time kent s article gets the reply i agree but this started at one particular point in time and we don t know when this starting point of accurately copied scriptures actually happened this begs the question of whether it ever started perhaps because accuracy was always an intention even worse if the events in nt were not written by eye witness accounts a high probability looking at possible dates when the first gospels were ready then we have to take into account all the problems with information forwarded with the telephone metaphor indeed it makes little difference if you have eyewitnesses or people one step away reporters if you will as i said earlier the telephone metaphor is innately bad because the purpose of a game of telephone is contrary to the aims of writing these sorts of texts also i would point out that by the standards generally asserted in this group the distinction between eyewitnesses and others is hollow since nobody can be shown to be an eyewitness or indeed even shown to be the author of the text there is no evidence that the original texts of either the ot or the nt are largely lost over time in a sea of errors corrections additions and deletions in the case of the nt the evidence is strongly in the other direction the textus r and the nestle aland text do not differ on more than a low level of significance it is reasonable to assume a similar situation for the ot based on the nt as a model c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c s tv h news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide sounds as though you are confused between what i want and what i think is morally right jon
alt.atheism	re why rushdie s writings are unappreciated in article quc u qu cc tut fi a lehtori cc tut fi aario sami writes in bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article c jqd mdb blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes it has been asked why no counter fatwa has been issued against khomenei s condemnation of rushdies because of his satanic verses the reason is basically that the satanic verses from which rushdie took his title are a serious matter not to be played around with by anyone who cares about islam this shouldn t matter that s your opinion which i am sorry to say is irrelevant gregg this guy sounds more than a little borg ish vell this is perfectly normal behaviour vor a vogon you know jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law i just received some new information regarding the issue of bcci and whether it is an islamic bank etc i am now about to post it under the heading bcci look for it there fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re why boyd acsu buffalo edu daniel f boyd writes if the bible is such incredible proof of christianity then why aren t the muslims or the hindus convinced if the qur an is such incredible proof of islam then why aren t the hindus or the christians convinced if god exists why aren t atheists convinced tan chade meng yes sir i have only one question singapore cmtan iss nus sg what is going on
alt.atheism	christianity logic was xtian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now i once heard an arguement from a xtian friend similar to this christianity is a higher logic athiest like u will not be able to understand it your atheist logic is very low only thru faith can we understand the higher logic in god so i asked him so what is this higher logic his answer i don t know this the posting above highlights one of the worst things about xtainity it is abundantly clear to both atheists xtains that their believe is both illogical irrational their tactics therefore to disregard logic rationality altogether silly excuses such as the ones above and those such as how can u trust science science was invented by man only goes to further show the weakness of their religion in my country where xtainity was and still is rapidly growing xtains never try to convert people by appealing to their brains or senses they know it would be a fruitless act given the irrational nature of their faith they would wait until a person is in distress then they would comfort him her and addict them to their emotional opium never in my life had i met a person who converted to xtainity coz it s reasonable rationality has no place in xtainity see xtian arguement against reason above the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article madhausc yd kip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes tammy see maddi i trimmed it healy well you re going to have to practice but you re getting the hang of it soon we re going to have to give you a new nickname try these on for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy r us healy tammy learning by doing healy the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit dean kaflowitz i knew an architect once who i swear was employed to design the signs for the toys r us and kids r us stores the signs the things they stick over the store or up on a big pole so they can be seen from the highway what a job all those hours in school studying to be an architect so you can tell them to move the pole ten feet closer to the highway
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c aec fb cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit the r us is not trademarked but the backwards r us is i believe speaking of proofs of god the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman she wrote god must exist because he wouldn t be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn t is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from b c and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	re fundamental beliefs of sda in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes i was asked to post list of the sda church s basic beliefs the sda church has always been reluctant to formalize a creed in the usual sense of word however the powers that be in the church deemed it neccessary to publish a summary of basic sda beliefs may i ask why they are afraid to do so speaking of proofs of god the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman she wrote god must exist because he wouldn t be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn t is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from b c and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes a religion is a cult which if those in power belong to it actually they re all bull shit graeme t g nattress uk ac ncl hitler is nibor from the planet vashir the galactic shape changing psychopath john the tomorrow people hitler s last secret
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes from kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran subject re you will all go to hell date sun apr gmt in article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation oh fuck off actually i just think he s confused i m going to hell because i m gay not becuase i don t believe in god i wonder if that means i can t come to tammy deans picnic of course you can come i said all a a posters are invited and i didn t put a no homosexual clause bring some munchies and join the party i can t imagine dean objecting either knowing keith i expect he ll bring the leather accessories better oil it well leather cracks when it dries dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re poisoning the well was islamic genocide in article rbpq ibg horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article bbacbc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes by the way that s why i consider you a theist points consisting of rhetorical fallacy unsupported claims and demonstrable falsehoods deleted no wonder that we don t see any detail for this claim it is good to remember that you have answered the statement that you are a theist by another correspondent with that you are not a member of a denomination it is either stupidity or an attempt at a trick answer not unlike the rest of your arguments mr roseneau i have little patience with people who tell me what i believe and who call me a liar when i disagree i m in a position not only to know what it is that i believe but to say so i am an agnostic i am extremely wary of the way you use words like in this case there are broader definitions of gods used by persons who are considered by themselves and others theists i have pointed to that in my post you use one of them your use of definitions seems to rest on the assumption because my moral is objective absolute or the other buzz words you are so fond of everybody will know it and there is no need to define it more exactly and as a user has shown recently the easiest way to dispell you is to ask you for definitions you are of course free to speculate on my motives for objecting to seeming irrational bigotry if you wish but the flaws which i point out in your arguments stand on their own merits since you are the only one seeing them and many correspondents point to the flaws in your reasoning respectively discussing i can t say i am impressed benedikt
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c b lkz blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article w briggs ccresources h cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au william briggs writes wasn t jc a carpenter anyway that s beside the point i think the fact that is more compelling is jc fulfilling the prophecies when the prophecies include him getting killed in the most agonizing possible way this is nonsense i can think of a lot more agonizing ways to get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe we can make a list actually i find the stuff about jc being a carpenter more interesting is there an independent source for this assertion or is it all from the christian bible is there any record at all of anything he built a table a house some stairs norm abrams says the real test of a carpenter s skill is building stairs with hand tools did he leave any plans behind for say kitchen counters and cabinets did he build his own cross if so did he use pressure treated lumber gotta use that pressure treated anywhere that wood meets concrete but it holds up better anyway for mose outdoor applications i keep seeing these bumper stickers that say my boss is a jewish carpenter but they re always on the back of ford escorts and a real carpenter s apprentice would probably drive a pickup so i m out for verification that he really was a carpenter dean kaflowitz sometimes i like to get away from the shack catfish ain t pretty but they don t talk back goin fishin again goin fishin again me and my no good friends sure goin fishin again
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article c b lkz blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes i can think of a lot more agonizing ways to get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe we can make a list how about dying of a blood clot in a very bad place kidney stones with complete blockage
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article c aec fb cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit the r us is not trademarked but the backwards r us is i believe yup i think you re right my mistake now how do i make an r backwards using a computer keyboard i ll bet the gods know how this is alt atheism after all tell you what if all my r s start coming out backwards when i type from now on i ll become a believer and that s not asking for miracles if i asked for a miracle i d ask for a real miracle like for pat buchanan to become an out of the closet drag queen well maybe that wouldn t be so miraculous but i think he d look fabulous in a feather boa and a sequined hat like mia farrow wore in gatsby dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault in article w briggs ccresources h cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au william briggs writes deletion lucky for them that the baby didn t have any obvious deformities i could just see it now mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and joseph say that it was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out to be deformed or even worse stillborn they d have a lot of explaining to do a few points guys oops guy and gal but i use the term guy asexually has the same sort of conspiracy ever occurred since i mean there must have been dozen of times in the past two thousand years when it would have been opportune time for a messiah to be born it has there is a guy running around in switzerland who claims to have been conceived similarly his mother says the same his father is said to be a bit surprised but anyway there have been a lot of messiahs and many have had a similar story about their birth or their death a list of messiahs could be quite interesting wouldn t you feel bad if you turned out to be wrong and the conception of christ was via god i can just imagine your faces as mary asks you if you ve ever had a child yourself i would wonder why an omnipotent god pulls such stunts instead of providing evidence for everyone to check and the whole question is absurd wouldn t you feel bad if you d find out that stones are sentient and that you have stepped on them all your life and wouldn t you feel bad when you d see the proof that jesus was just a plot of satan if they wanted to save image they could have done what joseph planned to do in the first place have a quite wedding and an equally quite divorce i think it was quite easy to do under jewish law in that regard they would have been pretty dumb to think up a conspiracy like the one you ve outlined in that they a bringing attention on themselves messiah appearances were like royal scandals in zero ad israel see the part in acts when the sandhedrin are discussing what to do about the growth of the new church i e one wise guy said leave it alone and if it is what it says it is nothing can stop it and if it isn t then it will just fizzle out anyway you ve forgotten the pride factor it didn t fizzle the church i mean the argument is a fallacy it is like thanks for reading this far on the end of a letter most religions claim that they won t fizzle because they contain some eternal truth so does christianity since there are old religions it is no wonder to find old religions that have it that they would last roll twelve dice calculate the chance for the result argue that there must be something special about the result because an event with a chance of could hardly happen by chance only feel elevated because you have participated in letting that special event take place benedikt
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes robert beauchine wrote rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely it s not intended as wit surely it was intended as wit by the way which atheist cause were you referring to bill kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re room for metaphor in article bakerlj augustana edu bakerlj augustana edu lloyd baker writes what i want is a response giving me the pros and cons of metaphorical religious language could an atheist accept this view without giving up the foundamentals of what he believes in could an atheist accept a usage in which religious literature or tradition is viewed in a metaphorical way of course this is essentially what we do with homer or with other concepts such as fate luck free will however there remains the question of whether the religious literature of say christianity is a particularly good set of metaphors for the world today it s also entirely unclear and to me quite unlikely that one could take a contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential from the literalism and absolutism it carries now in many cases jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists in article r cmninnb gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes pardon me i am trying to apply human terms to non humans that s right you are basically stating that morality can only deal with humans because only humans are sentient enough to be moral that is you say that morality can only deal with intentions i have never said that only humans are the only beings which are sufficiently sentient to have intentions in fact i have explicitly said that i am perfectly happy to consider that some animals are capable of forming intentions what i am objecting to is considering programmed or instinctive behaviour to have moral significance since it seems to me such behaviour does not involve intention i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral i m sure you do think this if you say so how about trying to convince me i think that a moral act is moral whether or not the implementor thinks it is that s not the point the point is whether the implementor thinks at all the issue is not whether thinking produces opinion a or opinion b but whether thinking takes place period i ve offered four times i think to accept your definition if you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion of the planets hmm perhaps you can ascribe it i could say that many human actions are not natural and thus don t follow a natural morality since humans are part of nature are not all human actions natural or perhaps you re going to throw in a definition of natural that will allow us to describe some actions as natural and some as not natural if so what is the definition other than those death which surround mating rituals other animals just don t kill each other within a species that often do they sure they do as multiple posters have show you sharks for example eat wounded sharks i ve personally seen cats eat their newborn are you in some kind of denial people give you example after example and you go off the air for a week and then pop up claiming that it never happened it s very strange but why don t animals kill each other see what i mean here we go again what do we have to do write up a tailor made faq just for mr schneider jon
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell this is hell hasn t anyone noticed consensual reality is a special case
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an deletion well that is certainly different but it looks as if there is a translation found for everything by the way i am most surprised to hear that night and day move in an orbit i thought about this too some translations refer to only the latter two objects being in orbit but bucaille s translation seems to indicate the night and the day travelling in orbit too perhaps this can be understood when one looks at it from the earth s reference frame from this reference frame the day and the night would appear to orbit the earth travelling from east to west this is from the reference frame when the earth is still well yes but that belongs in the other group there is a interpretation found for everything however allowing any form of interpretation reduces the information of the text so interprteted to zero by the way i have checked the quote and i think the lines preceding those quoted above are more interesting where mountains are set on earth in order to immobilize the earth where the skies heavens are referred to as well supported the lines given above are after my edition maybe this is what is meant by the above it s just a possibility and that the sun travels in an orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric to me i will see if i can find out more about this but it is still not geocentric that sun and moon move and the earth is immobile sounds geocentric to me benedikt
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article r emjinnmk gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but this just shows then that painful execution is not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel as used in the constitution does not refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical pain rather it must be a different meaning i don t think so although some forms of execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly so i think the pain is relatively short lived drawing and quartering on the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn t die right away he d bleed to death i d imagine so what do we have now an integral over pain x time i get to lash you with a wet noodle for ever but i only get to cut you up with a power saw if i m quick about it jon
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified april version atheist resources addresses of atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation in the us write to ffrf p o box madison wi telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish it s a fish symbol like the ones christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded d plastic fish is postpaid in the us write to evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood ca people in the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who go to lynn directly the price is per fish set free atheist stickers t shirts and books write to set free p o box garden grove ca american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques of the bible lists of biblical contradictions and so on one such book is the bible handbook by w p ball and g w foote american atheist press pp isbn nd edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based on the king james version of the bible write to american atheist press p o box austin tx or cameron road austin tx telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught s holy horrors see below write to east amherst street buffalo new york telephone an alternate address which may be newer or older is prometheus books glenn drive buffalo ny african americans for humanism an organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of black freethought they publish a quarterly newsletter aah examiner write to norm r allen jr african americans for humanism p o box buffalo ny united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london n ew london n nl british humanist association south place ethical society lamb s conduit passage conway hall london wc r rh red lion square london wc r rl fax the national secular society publish the freethinker a monthly magazine founded in germany ibka e v internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach d berlin germany ibka publish a journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka e v miz vertrieb postfach d berlin germany for atheist books write to ibdk internationaler b ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach d hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas m disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity to living or dead gods uh well walter m miller jr a canticle for leibowitz one gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre at times but very approachable he wrote mainly sf but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although he often believed that he had met some sort of god he remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are of some relevance galactic pot healer a fallible alien deity summons a group of earth craftsmen and women to a remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright is unable to comply a polished ironic and amusing novel a maze of death noteworthy for its description of a technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of gnostic christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of unknown but possibly divine origin he is accompanied by his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from another star system unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid s tale a story based on the premise that the us congress is mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it right again the book is the diary of a woman s life as she tries to live under the new christian theocracy women s right to own property is revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio is only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood s writing style is difficult to get used to at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however it is probably worth reading if only so that you ll know what all the fuss is about it exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter de rosa vicars of christ bantam press although de rosa seems to be christian or even catholic this is a very enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism a philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa a detailed and scholarly justification of atheism contains an outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism i e the non belief in the existence of god s and also for positive atheism the belief in the non existence of god s includes great refutations of the most challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting contempory theists such as platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press a comprehensive critique of christianity in which he considers the best contemporary defences of christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and or incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore md usa subtitled the origins of unbelief in america examines the way in which unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic became a mainstream alternative world view focusses on the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis is on american and particularly new england developments neither a religious history of secularization or atheism without god without creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate of a single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover x paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa a dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the person s philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way in which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite a number of the quotations are derived from cardiff s what great men think of religion and noyes views of religion pages isbn paper x richard swinburne the existence of god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with the coherence of theism and was concluded with faith and reason in this work swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the existence of god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation of late th century western christian values and aesthetics to a god which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were decisively rejected in mackie s the miracle of theism in the revised edition of the existence of god swinburne includes an appendix in which he makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut mackie j l mackie the miracle of theism oxford this posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal arguments for and against the existence of god it ranges from the classical philosophical positions of descartes anselm berkeley hume et al through the moral arguments of newman kant and sidgwick to the recent restatements of the classical theses by plantinga and swinburne it also addresses those positions which push the concept of god beyond the realm of the rational such as those of kierkegaard kung and philips as well as replacements for god such as lelie s axiarchism the book is a delight to read less formalistic and better written than martin s works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving of swinburne james a haught holy horrors an illustrated history of religious murder and madness prometheus books looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day and not only by christians library of congress catalog card number norm r allen jr african american humanism an anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein an anthology of atheism and rationalism prometheus books an anthology covering a wide range of subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history of freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund d cohen the mind of the bible believer prometheus books a study of why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect it has on them george h smith atheism the case against god prometheus books describes the positions of atheism theism and agnosticism reviews many of the arguments used in favour of the existence of god concludes with an assessment of the impact of god on people s lives net resources there s a small mail based archive server at mantis co uk which carries archives of old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail to archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index and it will mail back a reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome to alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the newsgroups many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions mis statements or misconceptions and post them to the net in addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again in order to try and cut down on this the alt atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction to atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this is article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional if you are new to usenet 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psuvm psu edu john a johnson dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham mayne open cs fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka de achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd ie bryan o sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james j lippard s b rigel tamu edu s baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york h dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil j d baldwin d nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard c dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley rz mips complang tuwien ac at richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale phimanen cc helsinki fi pekka himanen and countless others i ve forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish however please send any changes or corrections to the author and please do not re post copies of the articles to alt atheism it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network finding stuff all of the faq files should be somewhere on your news system here are some suggestions on what to do if you can t find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines if you don t find anything in steps or your news system isn t set up correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the problem if you have anonymous ftp access connect to rtfm mit edu go to the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you ll find the latest versions of the faq files there ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers if you need help in using or getting started with ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq in the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction to the news answers newsgroup carries a list of these sites the article is posted regularly to news answers if you don t have ftp send mail to mail server rtfm mit edu consisting of the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail to mail server mantis co uk consisting of the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files there s other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis co uk or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only do this if you ve tried the above methods and they ve failed it s not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people s mailboxes with requests for files it s better than posting without reading the faq though for 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alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article markp avignon markp avignon mark pundurs wrote you take lsd and it skews your perception of reality you come down and your perceptions unskew i ve never taken lsd but read about the strange lifes and times of the ashbury heights culture something that was usually profound was the way these lsd trippers mentioned that after their first trip they changed their view of the world in other words taking lsd would change their reference frames which would indicate that deep changes due to let us say rewiring of the brain temporarily will indeed change frames and this leads to the statement that there is no solid reference frame the lsd trippers modified their relative view much of the haight ashbury crowd probably had pre existing dissatisfactions with their lives dissatisfactions ameliorated by mumbo jumbo about new realities the only change i experienced after lsd was to gain the knowledge that i didn t enjoy how lsd twisted my perception mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence on apr gmt bobbe vice robert beauchaine lp a yayg said execellent examples of luther s insane rantings deleted gee i m sooooo surprised that they don t teach this part of his ideology in high schools today ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians on wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik wrote in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu re conner s questioning of the blissful afterlife as a reason why many joined the early xian church well as i remember jacoby s mythmaker talks about this to cite one source but i m not sure if all christians have read this book in addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a lutheran having a lot of christian friends and i even have played in two christian rock bands do you mean hyam maccoby s the mythmaker mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists on tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose what atheists are you talking about imnsho abortion is the womans choice homosexual sex is the choice of the people involved war is sometimes necessary this leaves capital punishment i oppose capital punishemnt because mistakes can happen yes this thread went around with no resolution recently as far as poplulation control i think contraception and education are the best courses of action i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me that s because you are again making the assumption that all atheists have some specific mindset and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint mistakes can happen bill and i could be the victim of such a mistake mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution on tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure it isn t mutually exclusive but it lends weight to i e increases notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the atheist s pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity in the theist s pitch this is because the divine component falls prey to ockham s razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any such component more detail in the next post occam s razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an argument even so it interesting how often it s cited here and to what end it seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned as being too complex occam s razor the scientific explanation of things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler cute characterization bill however there is no inconsistency between the two statements even if one believes that religion is primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish one can still hold the view that religion also adds an unnecessary level of complexity to the explanation the ideas themselves don t have to be complex before being excised by occam s razor they only have to add unnecessarily to the overall complexity of the description which is it to be which is the non essential and how do you know i think the non essential part of an explanatory system is one that adds no predictive capability to the system considering that even scientists don t fully comprehend science due to its complexity and diversity maybe william of occam has performed a lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away huh this is all very confusing i m sure one of you will straighten me out tough watch it your freudian slip is showing mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re christian morality is on apr gmt dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort i and many others on a a have described how we have tried to find god are you saying our efforts have not been sincere for all the effort i have put in there has been no outward nor inward change that i can perceive what s a sincerely searching agnostic or atheist supposed to do when even the search turns up nothing simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know how do you accept that which you don t know do you mean that i must believe in your god in order to believe in your god mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	hard soft strong weak kiss on apr gmt timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons wrote mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes writing to someone else but you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist sorry for the flamage can we get back to using the terms strong atheist and weak atheist rather than this hard atheist and soft atheist i can imagine future discussions with newbies where there is confusion because of the multiplication of descriptions rest deleted mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes simple take out some physics books and start looking for statements which say that there is no objective physics i doubt you will find any you might find statements that there is no objective length or no objective location but no objective physics perhaps you have a different understanding of what physics is if we can t measure anything objectively then the answers we get from physics aren t objective either that s what i mean when i say there s no objective physics sure we can all agree that say f gmm r but that s maths it s only physics when you relate it to the real world and if we can t do that objectively we re stuck of course this displays my blatant bias towards applied science but even theoretical physics gets applied to models of real world situations based on real world observations consider for instance that speed of light in vacuum is invariant this sounds an awful lot like an objective speed of light in vacuum it s an axiom that it s invariant but if the two of us measure it we ll get different answers yes we call that experimental error but it s not really error in the conventional sense in fact if you don t get any that s an error you could argue that the value of c is objective to within some value but i d call that a rather odd usage of the word objective and it opens the way for statements like murder is objectively wrong for all people to within of the total population mathew
alt.atheism	re burden of proof watson sce carleton ca stephen watson writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers to remain as flames closed in koresh s armed guard may have injected as many as children with poison to quiet them do the fbi have proof of this yet why ask me i am only quoting the fbi official why not ask the fbi myabe they re lying to cover up or maybe they re telling the truth the children were of course killed by a lone gunman in a second story window who fired eight bullets in the space of two seconds mathew
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes to the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations as government and terrorist group yes each is a form of the other charley an anarchist no just true words being spoken in jest mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes we seem to be agreeing that the soldiers were just doing their job as best they could following orders proof positive that some people are beyond satire mathew
alt.atheism	re are atoms real was re after years blah blah blah kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes mathew mathew mantis co uk wrote what is the difference between a chemist and someone who is taught chemistry at say cambridge university put like this i can t answer i was originally pointing out that your attitude seemed to be i don t know if it really was that chemists tend to ignore all kinds of effects when they re not important yes all scientists do otherwise science would never get anywhere your original posting stated that when doing chemistry it is common to ignore atomic interactions hang about not atomic interactions in general just specific ones which are deemed unimportant like gravitational interactions between ions which are so small they re drowned out by electrostatic effects and so on has there been some revolution in teaching methods in the last four years perhaps this revolution has yet to reach cambridge my now i ll get flamed for sure oh probably they still make people memorize equations and ir spectra maybe in a few decades they ll discover the revolutionary data book technique bitter and twisted mathew
alt.atheism	re history texts was ancient references to christianity i wrote the diaries of the followers of the maharishi formerly of oregon are historical evidence in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh sp with the maharishi mahesh yogi here by any chance i believe that maharishi is titular someone please correct me if i am wrong thus maharishi rajneesh is a different person from maharishi mahesh but they are both maharishis russell
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r kh itp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer says specifically i d like to know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree is it a both are right b one of them is wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely we have a pretty good idea who it is c one of them is wrong but we never have any information as to who so we make our best guess if we really must make a decision d the idea of a right moral judgement is meaningless implying that whether peace is better than war e g is a meaningless question and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer e something else a short positive assertion would be nice as i hope you can tell b and c are actually predicated on the assumption that values are real so statements like these can t consistently derive from the relativist assumption that values aren t part of objective reality i am a relativist who would like to answer your question but the way you phrase the question makes it unanswerable the concepts of right and wrong or correct incorrect or true false belong to the domain of epistemological rather than moral questions it makes no sense to ask if a moral position is right or wrong although it is legitimate to ask if it is good or better than another position let me illustrate this point by looking at the psychological derivatives of epistemology and ethics perception and motivation respectively one can certainly ask if a percept is right correct true veridical or wrong incorrect false illusory but it makes little sense to ask if a motive is true or false on the other hand it is strange to ask whether a percept is morally good or evil but one can certainly ask that question about motives therefore your suggested answers a c simply can t be considered they assume you can judge the correctness of a moral judgment now the problem with d is that it is double barrelled i agree with the first part that the rightness of a moral position is a meaningless question for the reasons stated above but that is irrelevant to the alleged implication not an implication at all that one cannot feel peace is better than war i certainly can make value judgments bad better best without asserting the correctness of the position sorry for the lengthy dismissal of a d my short e answer is that when two individuals grotesquely disagree on a moral issue neither is right correct or wrong incorrect they simply hold different moral values feelings john a johnson j j psuvm psu edu department of psychology penn state dubois campus penn state is not responsible for my behavior a ruthless doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort getting drunk and picking up bar ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life from lila by r pirsig
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is this is swf in another indirect post via dan in article apr asl dl nec com duffy aslss asl dl nec com joseph duffy writes in article apr microsoft com russpj microsoft com russ paul jones writes the same way that any theory is proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try to observe them if you don t or if you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn t happen then you have some evidence against the theory if the theory can t be modified to incorporate the new observations then you say that it is false but how does one handle the nonrepeatability of the experiment in many types of experiments the prediction is that the observed phenomena will happen again and be capable of being observed for example in chemistry someone may predict the outcome of a chemical reaction and then actually observe that reaction repeatedly there are several problems here first you are discussing only experimental procedures observational procedures are also useful the main criterion is attempting to verify an idea by using it to make prediction about as yet unmade observations the observations could be the result of an experiment or they could be obsevations of activity occuring spontaneossly in nature or they could even be observations of the lasting results of events long past all that matters is that the observations be new this is what prediction is about in science it is not about predicting the future except in this very restricted sense secondly repeatability can also take many forms it is really just the requirement that independent observers be able to verify the results the observation of a fossil is repeatable since any qualified observer may look at it this is why the specimens are reqtined in a museum also there is the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will correspond to the current one new fossils are found often enough that this is tested regularly many times a new fossil actually falsifies some conclusion made on the basis of previous fossils unfortunately for you the models that were falsified have alway been peripheral to the model of evolution we now have for instance the front legs of tyrannosaurus rex turned out to have tremendous muscles rather than being weakly endowed as previously believed so in fact histoircal science findings are repeatable in the necessary sense just becuase you cannot go out and repeat the original event does not make it impossible to make valid observations this is not to say that biologists would not go coo coo if extra terrestrial life were discovered that could make the determination of the process of abiogenesis relatively easy sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the intent of my post as i remember it was to show that you cannot argue against any religion or ideology for that matter by the actions of those who claim to be its followers you have to look at the teachings of the religion or the principles of the ideology itself there is no getting around this so to argue against islam you have to go to the qur an bringing up khomeini or anyone else is relevant to discussing khomeini but not necessarily relevant to discussing islam as a religion sorry fred but for the purposes under discussion here i must disagree your point is true only in the sense that one cannot argue against communism by reference to the chinese or soviet empires since those did not represent true communism in judging the practical consequences of islam as a force to contend with in the world today it is precisely the khomeini s of the world the rushdie fatwa supporters and perhaps more importantly the reaction of the world muslim community to those extremists that we must look to perhaps unfortunately from your perspective most people are not concerned with whether islam is the right religion for them or whether the qur an could be used as a guidebook for a hypothetical utopia but how islam affects the world around them or what their lives might be like if islam gains in influence when i consider such possibilities it is with not inconsiderable fear jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re hoban was re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes interchange on hoban deleted this post of mine also illustrates that i am not simply a reactionary who hates any book which doesn t go out of its way to avoid upsetting religionists only those you haven t actually read sorry but the irony remains i reiterate for the nth time also that i don t agree with k s fatwa nor do i support censorship my point in the original thread has been to show why rushdie is not particularly due sympathy by those who hold their religion in high esteem and don t enjoy seeing things which slander it like the story of the satanic verses as opposed to the rushdie s tsv played with for amusement so although you don t agree with the fatwa and apparently don t think rushdie should be killed for his book yet you think he is not due sympathy for being being under this threat furthermore you base this reaction solely on the fact that he wrote about a particular well known story which if true might reflect poorly on the absolute truth of your religion yet this opinion is formed without recourse to actually looking to see how the story is used in context accepting at face value the widespread propaganda on just what this book contains and what the author s motivations are and then you come forward and recommend another book which touches on presumably plays with religious historical material because you find its overall presentation neutral jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me first you seem to assume all atheists think alike an atheist does not believe in the existence of a god our opinions on issues such as capital punishment and abortion however vary greatly if you were attacking the views of a particular atheist benedikt i presume then please present your argument as such and do not lump us all together as for the issues let s start with abortion personally i do not support abortion as a means of population control or contraception after the fact however i support the right of any woman to have an abortion regardless of what my personal views may be because it would be arrogant of me to tell any individual what he she may or may not do to his her body and the domain of legislators should not extend into the uterus that s my opinion and i am sure many atheists and theists would disagree with me i do not defend homosexuality as a means of population control but i certainly defend it as an end to itself i think most homosexuals would be angered to hear of anyone characterizing their personal relationship as nothing more than a conscious effort to keep population levels down as for atheists believing all values are biological i have no idea what you re talking about finally there are the issues of war and capital punishment an atheist can object to either one just as easily as a theist might you seem to be hung up on some supposed conspiratorial link between atheism and population control could this be the atheist cause you were referring to a few posts back kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals i disagree in the end the individual is responsible for his her own irrationality the individual s belief in some dogmatic religion is a symptom of that irrationality have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists atheists and agnostics i would imagine but yes that was my point an atheist would theoretically be just as ill equipped to study the philosophy of religion as a christian and yet there is a persistence of atheists among the ranks of philosophers therefore the conflict between one s religious beliefs or lack thereof and the ability to be a philosopher must not be as great as you assert the fact that most philosophers may be non religious was a secondary point science as would be practiced by atheists in contrast has a built in defence against faith and dogma as opposed to science practiced by theists be careful here science does have a built in defence against faith and dogma skepticism unfortunately it is not foolproof there is that wonderful little creature known as the theory many of us believe in the theory of evolution we have no absolute proof that this theory is true so why do we believe it because it makes more sense than there is quite a bit of faith involved here a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time and and and a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way well not all current beliefs are deficient but basically i agree can you see the difference science views beliefs as being flawed and new information can be obtained to improve them ideally this is true in reality though you have to acknowledge that scientists are human scientists have egos and biases some scientists assume a particular theory is true refuse to admit the flaws in that theory because of ego problems or whatever and proceed to spend their time and money trying to come up with absolute proof for the theory remember cold fusion by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could not really i agree that we spent far too much money on the waco crisis i believe especially considering the outcome my point was that mass suicides in the u s are rare jonestown was in guyana incidentally although we footed the bill for the clean up and the u s has far more important issues to address compare the number of u s citizens who have died in mass suicides with say the number of u s soldiers who died during one week of the vietnam war and you will see my point kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article r dglinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes neither i nor webster s has ever heard of francis hitchings who is he please do not answer with a well known evolutionist or some other such informationless phrase he is a paleontologist and author of the neck of the giraffe the quote was taken from pg jack for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching earth magic the neck of the giraffe or where darwin went wrong pendulum the psi connection the world atlas of mysteries tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article c sncl j o usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes evolution as i have said before is theory and fact it is exactly the same amount of each as the existence of atoms and the existence of gravity if you accept the existence of atoms and gravity as fact then you should also accept the existence of evolution as fact andy i don t accept atoms or gravity as fact either they are extremely useful mathematical models to describe physical observations we can make other posters have aptly explained the atomic model gravity too is very much a theory no gravity waves have even been detected but we have a very useful model that describes much of the behavior on objects by this thing we call gravity gravity however is not a fact it is a theoretical model used to talk about how objects behave in our physical environment newton thought gravity was a simple vector force einstein a wave both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it that takes a great leap of faith which of course is what religion takes evolution is no different jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself what do you accept as a fact the roundness of the earth after all the ancient greeks thought it was a sphere and then newton said it was a spheroid and now people say it s a geoid yourself isn t your personal identity just a theoretical construct to make sense of memories feelings perceptions i m trying to think of anything that would be a fact for you give some examples and let s see how factual they are by your criteria btw what are your criteria gravity is not a fact is that a fact how about newton s and einstein s thoughts about gravity is it a fact that they had those thoughts i don t see how any of the things that you are asserting are any more factual than things like gravity atoms or evolution in short before i am willing to consider your concept of what a fact is i m going to have to have as a minimum some examples of what you think are facts tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
alt.atheism	re mottos to replace in dog we trust pepke dirac scri fsu edu eric pepke writes in mammon we trust hey this is just a piece of paper spend me quickly this is your god from john carpenter s they live natch steve the lurking horror stelter sjs uxa cso uiuc edu
alt.atheism	re fake god holy lies in article apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes remember einstien said imagination is greater than knowledge then einstein should have had lunch with me at the tien fu on castro street yesterday when they handed me a fortune cookie that said he who has imagination but not knowledge has wings but no feet jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency see i told you there was an atheist mythology thanks for proving my point bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote but how do we know that you re representing the real christians bill you re an asshole get lost maddi i see that you still can t grasp the obvious is it because your are devious by nature or can you only find fault with an argument by misrepresenting it i plainly said that i was stating the christian position as i understand it i did not say whether i agree with it since my point was that the only flaws in that position are those atheists invent i have never claimed to be an expert on anything and especially christianity but i have made it an object of pretty intense study over the years so i feel qualified to discuss what its general propositions are what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me as usual you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss or can you even tell me what the issues are bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uul n c darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of religion they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself as ridiculous by their own devices they establish a new religion a mythology you mean bobby mozumder is a myth we wondered about that the point of course is to erect an easy target and deflect the disputants away from the real issue atheism the fictional christian or moslem or jew who is supposed to believe the distorted representation of their beliefs presented here is therefore made to seem a fool and his her arguments can thereby be made to appear ludicrous the mythology is the misrepresentations of religion used here as fact you mean bobby mozumder didn t really post here we wondered about that too so mr conner is bobby mozumder a myth a performing artist a real moslem a crackpot a provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don t you tell us jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uul n c darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of religion they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself as ridiculous by their own devices they establish a new religion a mythology that is not an atheism mythology in any sense of the word religious paradoy would be significantly more appropriate the nd part is rendered null and void by the simple fact that i do know several strong atheists i am sure that others do i myself am strong in the sense that i find the standard concept of god without any meaning any attempt to bring meaning either results in the destruction of the viability of language or in internal self contradiction the concept of strong atheism is not just a whimsical fantasy they and i exist your strawman is pointless and weak private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uxj pj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see i told you there was an atheist mythology thanks for proving my point bill considering what you quoted and refered to was blank i must say touche of course you are correct there is no atheistic mythology employed on this board or if there is it is null and void private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uzpe p darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me as usual you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss or can you even tell me what the issues are let me guess you re not a psycho analyst in real life but you play one on alt atheism right is esp something you have been given by god private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff i have heard figures closer to and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged obviously we have different sources bill moyers who happens to be a theist to tie this to alt atheism in his pbs documentary after the war is my main source i think i still have it on videotape others include the nation and the progressive the rest of the article is mere rationalisation you may claim that sanitation plants are strategic legitimate targets but what happens to the civilians in a city with no sewer system what happens to the civilians when you destroy water purification plants and when hospitals can t handle the resultant epidemics because there is no more electricity and what exactly are your sources we have all i m sure seen postol s interviews in the media where he demostrates how the pentagon lied about the patriot s effectiveness what is your source for the effectiveness you claim in any case i don t know if this is relevant to alt atheism how about if we move it somewhere else s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re the qur an and atheists was re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date sun apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au the qur an talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for their god i think this probably encompasses most atheists fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au as well as all the muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes in thailand got a better quote i wonder if the above quote forms the justification for athiesm and the equanimity with which their belief is arrived at
alt.atheism	re free moral agency andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu wrote i think you re letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of webster myth a traditional or legendary story a belief whose truth is accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed it s almost oxymoronic a rather amusing instance i ve found that most atheists hold almost no atheist views as accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but they don t meet the other criterions andrew the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist bill divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the you accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements of myth here s a good example of of what i said above read the post again i said acoording to which means i am referring to christian doctrine as i understand it if i am speaking for myself you ll know it my purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of christain doctrines since it seemed germane bill with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it means when atheists claim that they do not know if god exists and don t know what he wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority of the bible is its claim to be should i repeat what i wrote above for the sake of getting it across you may trust the bible but your trusting it doesn t make it any more credible to me if the bible says that everyone knows that s clearly reason to doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god s alleged existance again i am paraphrasing christian doctrine which is very clear on this point your dispute is not with me bill refuted while the species wide condemnation is justified those that claim that there is no evidence for the existence of god or that his will is unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself is no excuse no they don t have to ignore the bible the bible is far from universally accepted the bible is not a proof of god it is only a proof that some people have thought that there was a god or does it prove even that they might have been writing it as series of fiction short stories as in the case of dionetics assuming the writers believed it the only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it and that s ignoring the problem of whether or not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard of the bible again read the faq here again you miss the point the bible itself is not the point it s what it contains it makes no difference who accpets the bible or even who s unaware of its existence christians hold that it applies universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate and the same innate knowledge of god see above if you read my post with same care as read the faq we wouldn t be having this conversation bill freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity is directly there it doesn t stop exerting a direct and rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it god on the other hand doesn t generally show up in the supermarket except on the tabloids god doesn t exert a rationally undeniable influence gravity is obvious gods aren t as i said the evidence is there you just don t accept it here at least we agree bill secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of god so much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature human reason always comes back to the question of god in every generation and in no human reason hasn t always come back to the existance of god it has usually come back to the existance of god in other words it doesn t generally come back to the xtian god it comes back to whether there is any god and in much of oriental philosophic history it generally doesn t pop up as the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces are and which ones are out there from a world wide view human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to be and or what force s are currently in control a natural tendancy to believe in god only exists in religious wishful thinking yes human reason does always come back to the existence of god we re having this discussion are we not bill i said all this to make the point that christianity is eminently reasonable that divine justice is just and human nature is much different than what atheists think it is whether you agree or not you certainly are not correct on human nature you are at the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric approach try looking at the outside world as well when you attempt to sum up all of humanity well this is interesting truth is to be determined by it politically correct content granted it s extremely unhip to be a wasp male and anything european is contemptable but i thought this kind of dialogue the purpose of a a was to get at the truth of things but then i remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and i understand bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful monsters the human race didn t evolve from one set parents but from thousands do you really base your atheist on this considering that something like out of humans on this planet don t know instinctively that the christian god exist the claim of instinctive knowledge doesn t look like it hold much water or are you saying that the billion non christians in the world must fight this instinctive urge to acknowledge god and jc did i say that people were christians by nature or did i say that christians hold that everyone knows of the god the christians worship i would have thought the distinction obvious sorry read my post again and see what i really said from what you ve written i think you are just being agumentative also your word wrap is screwed up or you need to shift to columns text bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote i agree i had a hard feeling not believing my grand grand mother who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings i preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided the truth itself life is hard kent truly a brilliant rebuttal apparently you are of the opinion that ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason you ll find plenty of company a a bill
alt.atheism	re cruel kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes i don t think so although some forms of execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly so i think the pain is relatively short lived drawing and quartering on the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn t die right away he d bleed to death i d imagine ah so a cruel punishment is not just if it is painful as you origionally stated it is about long term pain eg non short lived why this sudden chance in your stance i don t think i ve changed my stance at all my original stance was that a painless execution was not a cruel one i didn t say what would be considered cruel only that a painless death wasn t now cruelty must involve some sort of suffering i believe i don t think someone that gets shot in the head or electrocuted really suffers very much even a hanging probably produces one sharp instance of pain but it s over so quickly hmmmmm pardon could it be that a counter example has been made which renders your previous stance null and void why don t you admit that your previous stance is incorrect or if you somehow managed to slip up and misstated your origional stance why not admit it no well again i stated that a painless death isn t cruel but i don t think i stated that all painful executions are cruel i think that some are cruel depending on the nature and duration of the pain by the way how long is too long anything more than an instant i guess any death by suffocation asphyxiation or blood loss would be cruel i think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering i d say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds or so would be too long but this may be an arbitrary cutoff i suppose keith
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape of course not i would think that would be great fun not having ever felt the joy and peace the christians speak of with a longing gaze this is not what i got when i believed i just tried to hide my fear of getting punished for something i never was sure of the bible is hopelessly confusing for someone who wants to know for sure god did not answer in the end i found i had been following a mass delusion a lie i can t believe in a being who refuses to give a slightest hint of her existence obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so i suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe and analyse their position in fact it is amusing to note in this context that many fundamentalist publications tell us exactly the opposite one should not examine one s belief critically i ll tell you something i left out of my testimony i posted to this group two months ago a day after i finally found out my faith is over i decided to try just one more time the same cycle of emotional responses fired once again but this time the delusion lasted only a couple of hours i told my friend in a phone that it really works thank god just to think about it again when i hung up i had to admit that i had lied and fallen prey to the same illusion no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right i used to believe what i read in books when i was younger or what other people told me but i grew more and more skeptical the more i read i learned what it means to use reason as a student of chemistry i had to perform a qualitative analysis of a mixture of two organic compounds in the lab i hated experiments like this they are old fashioned and increase the student s workload considerably besides i had to do it twice since i failed in my first attempt however i think i ll never forget the lesson no matter how strongly you believe the structure of the unknown is x it may still be y it is very tempting to jump into conclusions take a leap of faith assure oneself ignore the data which is inconsistent but it can still be wrong i found out that i was after all using exactly the same mechanism to believe in god mental self assurance suspension of fear filtering of information in other words it was only me no god playing any part the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact oh and i had better believe this dan many ufo stories are much better documented than the resurrection of jesus the resurrection is documented quite haphazardly in the bible it seems the authors did not pay too much attention to which wild rumour to leave out besides the ends of the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions for instance the end of mark is missing from many early texts says my bible jesus may have lived and died but he was probably misunderstood as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to this is easy i believe that the world exists independent of my mind and that logic and reason can be used to interpret and analyse what i observe nothing else need to be taken on faith i will go by the evidence it makes no difference whether i believe george washington existed or not i assume that he did considering the vast amount of evidence presented there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed a liar how do you know what my attitude was try reading your bible again i was willing to die for my faith those who do are usually remembered as heroes at least among those who believe dan do you think i m lying when i say i believed firmly for years it seems it is very difficult to admit that someone who has really believed does not do so anymore but i can t go on lying to myself blind trust is dangerous and i was just another blind led by the blind but if god really wants me she ll know what to do i m willing i just don t know whether she exists looking at the available evidence it looks like she doesn t petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	upi mother files complaint over boy scouts by default followups to newsgroups a short excerpt brookfield wis upi a mother has filed a complaint with the elmbrook school board alleging her son s elementary school and its parent teacher organization show discrimination by supporting the boy scouts gisele klemp said wednesday the pto s sponsorship of a boy scout troop and cub scout pack that meet at hillside elementary school in surbarban milwaukee is discrimination because the boy scouts ban homosexuals pto president gail pludeman disputed the charges of discrimination and said she believes the boy scouts are beneficial carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v t dq darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful monsters the human race didn t evolve from one set parents but from thousands do you really base your atheist on this in article c v zp dq darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes truly a brilliant rebuttal apparently you are of the opinion that ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason you ll find plenty of company a a bill conner meet bill conner jon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible did you forget that two spinning skaters are in orbit around each other
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr wam umd edu willdb wam umd edu william david battles says in article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god e b prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again probably not the jesus freak s post is probably jsn psuvm penn state is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers i use to go there vomit and it was the reason i left they even had a group try to stop playing rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens sounds like you were going to a different penn state or something kampus krusade for khrist is very vocal here but they really have little power to get anything done sometimes it seems like there are a lot of them because they re generally more vocal than their opposition but there really aren t that many krusaders the liberals tend to keep to themselves if they can help it since all they really want is to be allowed to go about their own lives the way they want to so you don t hear from or about most of them the bible bangers stand out because they want everyone to be forced to live according to bible banger rules the krusaders certainly don t run this place i d say we ve got a rather average mix of people here much like the rest of the u s and just like everywhere else some factions are louder than others andrew
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v mr z darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist they are religious parodies not atheistic paradies please substantiate that they are parodies and are outrageous specifically why is the iup any more outrageous than many religions private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re cruel in article r bkpinno s gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes no well again i stated that a painless death isn t cruel but i don t think i stated that all painful executions are cruel i think that some are cruel depending on the nature and duration of the pain but hanging is certainly painful or do you not let the condemned know they are going to die anything more than an instant i guess any death by suffocation asphyxiation or blood loss would be cruel i think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering i d say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds or so would be too long but this may be an arbitrary cutoff i suppose hanging is not supposed to be very pleasant i believe that in actuality it is not quick and clean however gas chambers can be quite non painful heck why not give them a good time suffication by nitrious oxide private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re books stuff about hard to find atheist books deleted perhaps the infiltration of fundies onto school boards city councils etc has something to do with why you can t find alternative media
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions bill ray ray engr latech edu wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote so in conclusion it can be shown that there is essentially no logical argument which clearly differentiates a cult from a religion i challenge anyone to produce a distinction which is clear and can t be easily knocked down how about this one a religion is a cult which has stood the test of time just like history is written by the winners and not the losers from what i ve seen of religions a religion is just a cult that was so vile and corrupt it was able to exert it s doctrine using political and military measures perhaps if koresh withstood the onslaught for another couple of months he would have started attracting more converts due to his strength hence becoming a full religion and not just a cult carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
alt.atheism	re nicknames cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes somebody forgotten me no nickname tan chade meng chinese have nicknames in the front the unenlightened one i thought your nickname was unenlightened maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article c h h d dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes quoting schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius in article schnitzi eustis i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism can someone confirm this someone told me that asimov converted to christianity at some point or something does anyone have any good quotes what absolutely not no way asimov was a lifelong atheist and said so many times right until his death judging from the many stories he told about his own life he felt culturally closest to judaism which makes sense he was born jewish ed ed wente llnl gov
alt.atheism	re free moral agency dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote i think you re letting atheist mythology great start i realize immediately that you are not interested in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me i would much prefer an answer from ms healy who seems to have a reasonable and reasoned approach to things say aren t you the creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about evolution some time ago duh gee then we must be talking christian mythology now i was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable logical person but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition of the same boring mythology i ve seen a thousand times before i am deleting the rest of your remarks unless i spot something that approaches an answer because they are merely a repetition of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought at all i have to congratulate you though bill you wouldn t know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls such a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated attempts to assist you in learning which i have seen in this forum and others in the past speaks of a talent that goes well beyond my own meager abilities i just don t seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz dean re read your comments do you think that merely characterizing an argument is the same as refuting it do you think that ad hominum attacks are sufficient to make any point other than you disapproval of me do you have any contribution to make at all bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective jim halat this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment you would have us believe that what the eye perceives as images are actaully there as perceived this may be interesting i thought that an electron microscope was used because no wavelength of light can illuminate any object of atomic scale if this image is to have useful resolution wouldn t the illuminating sources wavelength have to be several orders of magnitude less than size of thing observed if an atom is a probablity cloud lower resolutions would give the appearance of solidity but it seems fairly certain that an atom is not an object is any conventional sense obviously i am not a physicist but the question does have ramification of a philosophic nature anyway just a stray thought carry on bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is mike cobb cobb alexia lis uiuc edu wrote very true length of time for discussions on creationism vs evolutionism atheists and christians have been debating since and still debate with unabated passion mike i ve seen referrences to creation vs evolution several times in a a and i have question is either point of view derived from direct observation can either be scientific i wonder if the whole controversy is more concerned with the consequences of the truth rather than the truth itself both sides seem to hold to a philosophical outcome and i can t help wondering which came first as i ve pointed out elsewhere my view of human nature makes me believe that there is no way of knowing anyhthing objectively all knowledge is inherently subjective so in the context of a a would you take a stand based on what you actually know to be true or on what you want to be true and how can you tell the difference bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article c mw qr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote i d say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is interpreted and what significance it s given depends a great deal on the values of the observer science is a human activity and as such is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human activity the myth that scientists are above moral influence or ethical concern that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist is nonsense bill this is wonderfully phrased i assume you understand that your statement is also undermining such human constructs as religion as well kent i ll accept this as a compliment although i m always a little paranoid when visiting a a thanks yes i do know the extent of the statements relevence it s what i think of as human nature i m not sure it undermines either religion or atheism since both claim special knowledge about the truth and since such claims are always suspect all we can learn from it is that humans are a very arrogant species my point is that we cannot ignore human nature when examining human claims the trick here then is to find some way to abstract our infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality is out there so we can see what there is to see i can think of no way this can be done bill
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and robert beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com wrote precisely my position as a newbie i tried the point by point approach to debate with these types it wasted both my time and my lifespan ignoring them is not an option since they don t go away and doing so would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this group bob i ve posted here long enough to see your name a few times but i can t recall any point by point approach to anything you ve contributed but i m old probably senile and i may have just forgotten if you could post an example of your invincible logic it might jog my memory bill
alt.atheism	free energy technology free energy technology by robert e mcelwaine physicist ninety to a hundred years ago everybody knew that a heavier than air machine could not possibly fly it would violate the laws of physics all of the experts and authorities said so for example simon newcomb declared in the demonstration that no possible combination of known substances known forms of machinery and known forms of force can be united in a practical machine by which man shall fly long distances through the air seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the demonstration of any physical fact to be fortunately a few smart people such as the wright brothers did not accept such pronouncements as the final word now we take airplanes for granted except when they crash today orthodox physicists and other scientists are saying similar things against several kinds of free energy technologies using negative terms such as pseudo science and perpetual motion and citing so called laws which assert that energy cannot be created or destroyed st law of thermodynamics and there is always a decrease in useful energy nd law of thermodynamics the physicists do not know how to do certain things so they arrogantly declare that those things cannot be done such principles of impotence are common in orthodox modern science and help to cover up inconsistencies and contradictions in orthodox modern theories free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe with out burning any kind of fuel making them the perfect solution to the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion of the environment most free energy devices probably do not create energy but rather tap into existing natural energy sources by various forms of induction unlike solar or wind devices they need little or no energy storage capacity because they can tap as much energy as needed when needed solar energy has the dis advantage that the sun is often blocked by clouds trees buildings or the earth itself or is reduced by haze or smog or by thick atmosphere at low altitudes and high latitudes likewise wind speed is widely variable and often non existent neither solar nor wind power are suitable to directly power cars and airplanes properly designed free energy devices do not have such limitations for example at least three u s patents and have so far been awarded for motors that run exclusively on permanent magnets seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth s magnetic field the first two require a feedback network in order to be self running the third one as described in detail in science mechanics magazine spring amazing magnet powered motor by jorma hyypia pages and front cover requires critical sizes shapes orientations and spacings of magnets but no feedback such a motor could drive an electric generator or reversible heatpump in one s home year round for free complete descriptive copies of u s patents are each from the u s patent office jefferson davis hwy arlington va correct digit patent number required or try getting copies of both the article and the patents via your local public or university library s inter library loan dept a second type of free energy device such as the gray motor u s patent the tesla coil and the motor of inventor joseph newman see science pages taps electro magnetic energy by induction from earth resonance about cycles per second plus harmonics they typically have a spark gap in the circuit which serves to synchronize the energy in the coils with the energy being tapped it is important that the total inductance and capacitance of the device combine to resonate at the same frequency as earth resonance in order to maximize the power output this output can also be increased by centering the spark gap at the neutral center of a strong u shaped permanent magnet in the case of a tesla coil slipping a toroid choke coil around the secondary coil will enhance output power earth energy fuelless propulsion power systems by john bigelow health research p o box mokelumne hill ca during the s an austrian civil engineer named viktor schauberger invented and partially developed an implosion turbine german name zokwendle after analyzing erosion and lack of erosion in differently shaped waterways and developing sophisticated mathematical equations to explain it as described in the book a breakthrough to new free energy sources by dan a davidson water is pumped by an impeller pump through a logarithmic spiral shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a critical velocity the water then implodes no longer touching the inside walls of the tubing and drives the pump which then converts the pump s motor into an electric generator the device seems to be tapping energy from that of the earth s rotation via the coriolis effect like a tornado it can also neutralize gravity a fourth type of free energy device is the mcclintock air motor u s patent which is a cross between a diesel engine it has three cylinders with a compression ratio of to and a rotary engine with solar and planetary gears it burns no fuel but becomes self running by driving its own air compressor this engine also generates a lot of heat which could be used to heat buildings and its very high torque makes it ideal for large trucks preventing their slowing down when climbing hills david mcclintock is also the real original inventor of the automatic transmission differential and wheel drive crystals may someday be used to supply energy as shown in the star trek shows perhaps by inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a common household smoke detector one other energy source should be mentioned here despite the fact that it does not fit the definition of free energy a bulgarian born american physicist named joseph maglich has invented and partially developed an atomic fusion reactor which he calls migma which uses non radioactive deuterium as a fuel available in nearly unlimited quantities from sea water does not produce radioactive waste can be converted directly into electricity with out energy wasting steam turbines and can be constructed small enough to power a house or large enough to power a city and unlike the tokamaks and laser fusion monstrosities that we read about migma works already producing at least three watts of power for every watt put in new times u s version pages and then there are the cold fusion experiments that have been in the news lately originally conducted by university of utah researchers b stanley pons and martin fleischmann some u s navy researchers at the china lake naval weapons center in california under the direction of chemist melvin miles finally took the trouble to collect the bubbles coming from such an apparatus had them analyzed with mass spectrometry techniques and found helium which proves that atomic fusion did indeed take place and enough of it to explain the excess heat generated there are good indications that the two so called laws of thermodynamics are not so absolute for example the late physicist dewey b larson developed a comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe which he calls the reciprocal system which he describes in detail in several books such as nothing but motion and the universe of motion in which the physical universe has two distinct halves the material half and an anti matter half with a continuous cycle of matter and energy passing between them with out the heat death predicted by thermodynamic laws his theory explains the universe much better than modern orthodox theories including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about and is self consistent in every way some free energy devices might be tapping into that energy flow seemingly converting low quality energy into high quality energy also certain religious organizations such as sant mat and eckankar teach their members that the physical universe is only the lowest of at least a dozen major levels of existence like parallel universes or analogous to tv channels as described in books like the path of the masters by dr julian johnson and eckankar the key to secret worlds by sri paul twitchell for example the next level up from the physical universe is commonly called the astral plane long time members of these groups have learned to soul travel into these higher worlds and report on conditions there it seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe or be created at the boundary between them given the right configuration of matter to channel it this is supported by many successful laboratory controlled experiments in psycho kinesis throughout the world such as those described in the book psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain in terms of economics the market has failed inventors do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop and mass produce free energy equipment and the conventional energy producer have no desire to do so because of their ve ted intere t the government is needed to intervene if the government does not intervene then the total supply of energy resources from the earth will continue to decline and will soon run out prices for energy will increase and pollution and its harmful effects including the greenhouse effect acid rain smog radioactive contamination oil spills rape of the land by strip mining etc will continue to increase the government should subsidize research and development of free energy by inventors and universities subsidize private production until the producers can make it on their own and subsidize consumption by low income consumers of free energy hardware the long range effects of such government intervention would be wide spread and profound the quantity of energy demanded from conventional energy producer coal mining companie oil companie and countries electric utilitie etc would drop to near zero forcing their employees to seek work elsewhere energy resources coal uranium oil and gas would be left in the ground prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop to near zero while the price of free energy equipment would start out high but drop as supply increases as happened with vcr s personal computers etc costs of producing products that require large quantities of energy to produce would decrease along with their prices to consumers consumers would be able to realize the opportunity costs of paying electric utility bills or buying home heating fuel tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have to spend their money for gasoline for their cars government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have to be obtained in some other way and energy could no longer be used as a motive or excuse for making war many conventional energy producer would go out of business but society as a whole and the earth s environment and ecosystems would benefit greatly it is the people that government should serve rather than the big corporation and bank for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources patents articles books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics uw ec
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote let us go back oh say years or so whatever pretend someone says to you someday there will be men on the moon now remember you still think the world is flat this is quite an extraordinary claim i think c s lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world is flat however this argument goes both ways pretend someone telling plato that it is highly probable that people do not really have souls their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make up and their brains their body is actually ahead of their mind even in voluntarly actions i don t think plato would have been happy with this and neither would paul although paul s ideas were quite different however if you would read what we discuss in this group and not just preach you would see that there currently is much evidence in favour of these statements the same applies to the theory of natural selection or other sacred cows of christianity on our origins and human nature i don t believe in spirits devils or immortal souls any more than in gods the fact is we can argue the existence of god until the end of time there really is no way to either prove or disprove it but there will be a time when we all know the truth i hope and believe i m right and i hope and pray that you find your way too ah you said it you believe what you want to this is what i had assumed all along ok maybe i shouldn t have said no way i guess i really believe there is a way but all i can do is plant seeds either they grow or they don t you might be as well planting satan s seeds ever thought of this besides you haven t yet explained why we must believe so blindly without any guiding light at all at least i haven t noticed it i don t think this is at all fair play on god s part your argument sounds like a version of pascal s wager please read the faq this fallacy is discussed there but they won t if they re not planted the holy spirit is the nurishment that helps them grow and that comes from god and i failed to get help from the hs because i had a wrong attitude sorry dan but i do not think this spirit exists people who claim to have access to it just look badly deluded not gifted petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re free moral agency bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes i see that you still can t grasp the obvious is it because your are devious by nature or can you only find fault with an argument by misrepresenting it gee since you ignored the entire substance of my substantial post you got a lot of nerve claiming that i don t understand what s being talked about respond to the previous post or shut the fuck up you re really annoying maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re free energy technology in article apr cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe with out burning any kind of fuel making them the perfect solution to the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion of the environment give me a call when you build a working model then we ll talk stock options private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re the qur an and atheists was re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in article apr doug cae wisc edu kahraman hprisc cae wisc edu gokalp kahraman writes in this respect since atheists are dominantly arrogant and claim self control and self ownership they would make pharoahs look like very humble decent people in comparison if the logic is this since i own myself others who are like me should also own themselves and going further things are self existent and self standing and self living etc yes atheists tend to claim self control and self ownership are you saying that theists claim to not have self control i don t think atheists are dominantly arrogant they don t claim some god that has supremacy over all of mankind now this claim would be arrogant but atheists don t claim it most atheists do claim to own themselves i think any disagreement with this claim of self ownership would be supremely arrogant john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change be full of hate or love if people are allowed to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen a dangerous situation in my opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions to the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations as government and terrorist group c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re science and theories in article c u bq j news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes as per various threads on science and creationism i ve started dabbling into a book called christianity and the nature of science by jp moreland as i don t know this book i will use your heresay a question that i had come from one of his comments he stated that god is not necessarily a religious term but could be used as other scientific terms that give explanation for events or theories without being a proven scientific fact it depends on how he defines god the way i understand the meaning of that term preclues it being used in a useful way in science ideas drawn from an understanding that god is supernatural precludes us from forming scientific assertions that can be falsified that is where we can decide that they are true or false within the terms of we use and useful observations drawn from them some religionists have an interest in bluring the definitions within science to make them more reconcilable and especially subserviant in a basic way to religious dogma this pursuit always fails i think i got his point i can quote the section if i m being vague the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc reconciliation of science with religion involves circumventing the tendancy to claim that either pursuit can gain absolute or certian knowledge or that the domain of truth in each is fundementally limited in some way it gererally confurs the element of uncertainty and limitations to human knowledge while allowing for the different concerns of these separate pursuits science and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional answers at best science is distinctly limited in where it can ask meaningful questions more questions can be posed than it can answer at the basis of sacred language is the place where words fail us and mere assertions disolve in contradiction bruce salem
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic jon livesey writes so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions well yes this is the real mystery of the matter and why i am rather dubious of a lot of the source theories there are a number of places where the masoretic text mt of the ot is obscure and presumably corrupted these are reproduced exactly from copy to copy the dss tend to reflect the same errors this would appear to tell us that at least from some point people began to copy the texts very exactingly and mechanically the problem is we don t know what they did before that but it seems as though accurate transmission begins at the point at which the texts are perceived as texts they may be added to and in some situations such as the end of mark material is lost but for the most part there are no substantial changes to the existing text you re basically trying to make a mountain out of a molehill some people like to use the game of telephone as a metaphor for the transmission of the texts this clearly wrong the texts are transmitted accurately c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	albert sabin br from wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins br newsgroups alt atheism br organization dgsid atlanta ga br since you have referred to the messiah i assume you br are referring to the new testament please detail br your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post br first century greek is well known and br well understood have you considered josephus the jewish br historian who also wrote of jesus in addition br the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony it is also well known that the comments in josephus relating to jesus were inserted badly by later editors as for the four gospels being in harmony on the issue of jesus you know not of what you speak here are a few contradictions starting with the trial and continuing through the assension the death of judas after the betrayal of jesus acts now this man judas purchased a field with the reward of iniquity and falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst and all his bowels gushed out matt and he judas cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself and the chief priests bought with them the potter s field what was jesus prediction regarding peter s denial before the cock crow matthew before the cock crow twice mark how many times did the cock crow mar and the second time the cock crew and peter called to mind the word that jesus said unto him before the cock crow twice thou shalt deny me thrice and when he thought thereon he wept mat then began he to curse and to swear saying i know not the man and immediately the cock crew mat and peter remembered the word of jesus which said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny me thrice and he went out and wept bitterly luk and peter said man i know not what thou sayest and immediately while he yet spake the cock crew luk and the lord turned and looked upon peter and peter remembered the word of the lord how he had said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny me thrice joh jesus answered him wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake verily verily i say unto thee the cock shall not crow still thou hast denied me thrice joh peter then denied again and immediately the cock crew destruction of cities what said was jeremiah was zechariah this is interesting because matthew quotes a prophesy that was never made not the only time he does this either mat then was fulfilled that which was spoken by jeremy the prophet saying and they took the thirty pieces of silver the price of him that was valued whom they of the children of israel did value zechariah nothing in jeremiah remotely like what was the color of the robe placed on jesus during his trial scarlet matthew purple john the time of the crucifiction mark says the third hour or a m but john says the sixth hour noon was when the sentence was passed inscription on the cross matthew this is jesus the king of the jews mark the king of the jews luke this is the king of the jews john jesus of nazareth the king of the jews what did they give him to drink vinegar matthew wine with myrrh mark women at the cross matthew said many stood far off including mary magdaline mary the mother of james and the mother of zebedee s children mark and luke speak of many far off and mark includes mary magdeline and mary the mother of james the less john says that jesus s mother stood at the cross along with her sister and mary magdalene jesus last words matt and about the ninth hour jesus cried with a loud voice saying eli eli lama sabachthani that is to say my god my god why hast thou forsaken me jesus when he cried again with a loud voice yielded u the ghost luke and when jesus had cried with a loud voice he said father unto thy hands i commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost john when jesus therefore had received the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost events of the crucifiction matthew says that the veil of the temple was rent that there was an earthquake and that it was dark from the sixth to the ninth hour that graves opened and bodies of the saints arose and went into jeruselem appearing to many beating jesus to the resurection mark and luke speak of darkness and the veil of the temple being rent but mention no earthquake or risen saints john is the only one who mentions jesus s side being peirced burial of jesus matthew says the jews asked pilate for a guard to prevent the body from being stolen by the disciples and for the tomb to be sealed all of this was supposedly done but the other gospels do not mention these precautions how long was jesus in the tomb depends where you look matthew gives jesus prophesying that he will spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth and mark has after three days meta treis emeras he will rise again as far as i can see from a quick look the prophecies have after three days but the post resurrection narratives have on the third day time of the resurection matthew says sunday at dawn mark says the sun was rising and john says it was dark who was at the empty tomb is it mat in the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week came mary magdalene and the other mary to see the sepulchre mar and when the sabbath was past mary magdalene and mary the mother of james and salome had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him joh the first day of the week cometh mary magdalene early when it was yet dark unto the sepulchre and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre whom did they see at the tomb mat and behold there was a great earthquake for the angel of the lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat upon it mat his countenance was like lightning and his raiment white as snow mat and for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men mat and the angel answered and said unto the women fear not ye for i know that ye seek jesus which was crucified mar and entering into the sepulchre they saw a young man sitting on the right side clothed in a long white garment and they were affrighted luk and it came to pass as they were much perplexed thereabout behold two men stood by them in shining garments joh and seeth two angels in white sitting the one at the head and the other at the feet where the body of jesus had lain belief that the disciples stole jesus s body matthew says the guard was paid to tell this story but no other gospel makes this claim appearences of the risen jesus matthew says an angel at the tomb told the two marys and that jesus also told them to tell the disciples to meet him in galilee the disciples then went to a mountain previously agreed opon and met jesus there this was his only appearance except to the women at the tomb matthew only devotes five verses to the visit with the disciples mark says that jesus walked with two of the disciples in the country and that they told the rest of the disciples who refused to believe later he appeared to the disciples at mealtime luke says two followers went the same day that jesus rose from the dead to emmaus a village eight miles from jeruselem and there jesus jioned them but was unrecognised while they ate a meal together that evening they finally recognised jesus whereopon he dissapeared returning at once to jeruselem they told the disciples of their experience and suddenly jesus appeared among them frightening them as they thought he was a spirit jesus then ate some fish and honey and then preached to them john says jesus appeared to the disciples the evening of the day he arrose in jeruselem where they were hiding he breathed the holy ghost opon them but thomas was not present and refused to believe eight days later jesus joined the disciples again at the same place and this time he convinced thomas once more jesus made an appearance to the disciples at the sea of tiberias but again was not recognised after telling them to cast their netson the other side of the boat jesus becomes known to them and prepares bread and fish for them they all eat together and converse the book of acts further adds to the confusion it says that jesus showed himself to the apostles for a period of days after his resurection thus contradicting matthew mark luke and john and spoke to them of things pertaining to the kingdom of god and when he had spoken these things while they beheld he was taken up and a cloud recieved him out of their sight and while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up two men stood by them in white apparel which also said ye men of galilee why stand ye gazing into heaven this same jesus which is taken from you into heaven shall so comein like manneras ye have seen him go into heaven acts paul outdoes every other authority by saying that jesus was seen by persons between the time of the resurection and the assension although he does not say where he also claims that he himself as one born out of due time also saw jesus cor the ascension matthew says nothing about it mark casually says that jesus was recieved into heaven after he was finished talking with the disciples in jeruselem luke says jesus led the desciples to bethany and that while he blessed them he was parted from them and carried up into heaven john says nothing about it acts contradicts all of the above see previous section when second coming mat verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled mar verily i say unto you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done luk verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled thessalonians how many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention corinthians matthew minus one from acts mathias not elected until after resurrection mat then the eleven disciples went away into galilee into a mountain where jesus had appointed them ascend to heaven and elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven kings no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven the son of man john as you can see there are a number of contradictions in the account of the trial crucifiction and resurection of jesus if these are good witnesses you would think that they could get some of these important details right in fact i cannot find very many points on where they agree you would think that they could at least agree on some of the points they were supposedly observing because of the fact that there is so much contradiction and error the story of the resurection as presented cannot be taken as literal truth due to the nature of the story i doubt if it should be taken as any sort of truth alan
alt.atheism	albert sabin br from wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins br newsgroups alt atheism br organization dgsid atlanta ga br the problem is that most scientists exclude the br possibility of the supernatural in the question of br origins is this is a fair premise i utterly br reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of br truth it is better than the crap that the creationists put out so far all they have been able to manage is distortions and half truths when they are not taking quotes out of context br some of these so called human like creatures were br apes some were humans some were fancifully br reconstructed from fragments the genetic code has shown more about how man is realted to primates that the fossil record a little detail the creationists try and ignore br good deeds do not justify a person in god s br sight an atonement jesus is needed to atone br for sin who says your bible tm i would be surprised if any christian followed all of the rules in the bible most of them just pick and choose according to the local biases br my point god is the creator look s like we agree where is your proof how do you know it was your god br i ll send you some info via e mail br regards bill why not post them i would be interested in seeing them myself alan
alt.atheism	after years can we say that christian morality is mc theory of creationism my theistic view of the theory of mc creationism there are many others is stated in genesis mc in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth and which order of creation do you accept the story of creation is one of the many places in the bible where the story contradicts itself the following is an example gen and god made the beast of the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind and god saw that it was good gen and god said let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth gen and the lord god said it is not good that the man should be alone i will make him an help meet for him gen and out of the ground the lord god formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them unto adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever adam called every living creature that was the name thereof even your bible cannot agree on how things were created why should we believe in it alan
alt.atheism	some thoughts rh from house helios usq edu au ron house rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university of southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it rh i know i shouldn t get involved but rh bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was rest of rant deleted this is a standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed so far they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance most of them try it using the very flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it but those writers use very flawed sources if they are real sources at all some are not when will they ever learn to do real research instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores rh righto dan try this one with your cornflakes rh the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was rh crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he rh said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as rh follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able rh to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and rh kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i rh believe he did make the sun stand still rh niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation rh be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rh rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right rh away rh therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have rh been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court bobbe vice robert beauchaine lp a yayg pontificated i guess i don t understand the problem i ve never had any problem swearing and using the name of god in the same sentence comes quite naturally as a matter of facxt i would guess that you either mean that you don t have a problem swearing aligance to a non existant being or that you are being deliberatily dense considering what group this is it doesn t come quite naturally to nonbelievers such as myself or even to followers of other religions would you say it would be quite natural if you were forced to swear by allah or budda james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp in article sheafferc zt brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes it had to happen the old allegation of the deathbed conversion of the noted unbeliever other examples what all of these deathbed conversion claims have in common is that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue i would not be too quick to say that they are almost certainly untrue even strong minded people may fall back on childhood indoctrination grasp at straws or do other strange things when faced with extreme suffering not to mention physiological problems which may lead to diminished mental capacity at the risk of restarting an old argument and accusations of appeal to authority i remind readers of what i posted a while back as a kind of obituary for the late atheist dr albert sabin in an old interview rebroadcast on public radio just after his death he told about a time a few years before when he was stricken with a very serious illness he admitted to having cried out to god while critically ill and on a respirator as it turned out he recovered and lived several more years after his recovery he attributed this to early indoctrination don t say it couldn t happen to you or that it hasn t happened to others even if you are one of the few people who have experienced things like this people are different i admire dr sabin for admitting his human weakness in that instance i would not think less of asimov for similar weakness nevertheless i agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may well be untrue in any case they are not evidence for anything besides the power of early indoctrination and human frailty bill mayne
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion that s was the original answer while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not insinuated i don t see a header referring to bob as the poster to whom i was responding i distinctly remember thinking i was responding to you when i wrote this in which case i would make no apologies but in the event that i was in fact responding to bob i hereby apologize to bob for insinuating such a thing sorry bob on the other hand it could be that ben has his head so far up his ass that he can t tell himself from bob sorry gregg it was no answer to a post of mine and you are quite fond of using abusing language whenever you think your religion is misrepresented by the way i have no trouble telling me apart from bob beauchaine i still wait for your answer to that the quran allows you to beat your wife into submission you were quite upset about the claim that it was in it to be more correct you said it wasn t i asked you about what your consequences were in case it would be in the quran but you have simply ceased to respond on that thread can it be that you have found out in the meantime that it is the holy book what are your consequences now was your being upset just a show do you simple inherit your morals from a book ie is it suddenly ok now is it correct to say that the words of muhammad reflect the primitive machism of his society or have you spent your time with your new gained freedom benedikt
alt.atheism	re alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp in article c n o panix com carlf panix com carl fink writes in sheafferc zt brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes deletion it had to happen the old allegation of the deathbed conversion of the noted unbeliever i seem to recall similar claims being made about voltaire mencken darwin ingersoll etc indeed the literary hoax attributed to nietzsche my sister and i portrays him as trembling in fear before divine judgment and it was recently re issued by amok books with an introduction by a lutheran professor telling us why we should take it seriously what all of these deathbed conversion claims have in common is that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue perhaps the least believable and most infurating alleged conversion was that of tom paine reported like most only by his devout relatives asimov was very unlikely to convert to christianity on his deathbed return to judaism perhaps if he did revert to childhood training but christianity the good doctor would more likely have converted to hinduism isaac asimov read creationist books he read the bible he had ample opportunity to kneel before his creator and savior he refused in fact he sent out a strong promotional letter urging support of the american humanist association shortly before he died excerpt from ken ham asimov meets his creator back to genesis no june p c included in acts facts vol no june from the institute for creation research this is one of the most offensive articles they ve ever published but at least it argues against a deathbed conversion there s a part of the article even worse than what i ve just quoted in which an excerpt from a reader s letter says that if asimov is burning in hell now then he certainly has had a degree change in his former beliefs about creation and the creator a post deathbed conversion jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was re rumours about do ok with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects of scaling and so on i thought i d do some more tests first of all i felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie i had been using only had frames in it it was a version of the very first movie i created with the compact video compressor i decided something a little longer would give closer to real world results for better or for worse i pulled out a copy of a space odyssey that i had recorded off tv a while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there s a sequence where the earth shuttle is approaching the space station specifically i digitized a portion of about seconds duration zooming in on the rotating space station i figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between frames to increase the differences between frames i digitized it at only frames per second to give a total of frames i captured the raw footage at a resolution of pixels with the spigot card in my centris quarter size resolution from a pal source i then imported it into premiere and put it through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate i created two versions of the movie one scaled to resolution the other at resolution i used the default quality setting in premiere and specified a key frame every ten frames i then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program i used for the results i d been reporting earlier result a playback rate of over frames per second that s right i was getting a much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun i copied the movie to my external hard disk a quantum lp s and ran it from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the mb internal hard disk also a quantum is a significant contributor to the speed of playback i modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled to size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing quicktime in action not i d try my tests with quicktime but i don t think it s entirely compatible with my centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing i tried was saving versions of the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer ie with quicktime s normal synchronized playback a preferred rate of fps didn t work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease i can t believe that quicktime s synchronization code would add this much overhead i think the slowdown was coming from the mac system s task switching a preferred rate of fps seemed to work fine i couldn t see any evidence of stutter at fps i think i could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second it was hard to tell i guess i could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the key frames to make the stutter more noticeable of course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed up the playback performance even more lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.graphics	icn msdos pbm pgm ppm format i have many icons in iconedit and pbicon format and i would like to convert them to pbm pgm or ppm format do you know the formats of iconedit or pbicon thank s for your help rene kiwi iis ethz ch
comp.graphics	re bit graphics howdy all oehler yar cs wisc edu wonko the sane writes i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor hmm bit aye well it beats a bit design for thee sake of ellegance bit means bits per primary colour the nr of colours is a bit misleading it makes more sense to see it as possible shades of pure red this might actually make some sense since shades of red bit colours may produce visible jumps in intensity then again a byte per primary colour for each pixel is the most elegant way of doing colour graphics because it leaves ya such a tidy and fast program code take care bram flying is a nack the trick is bram stolk stolk fwi uva nl to throw yourself at the ground dept of maths computer science and miss douglas adams university of amsterdam no i dont use ms windoze i prefer linux
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x thanks in advance
comp.graphics	human body data sets needed urgently hi all i m looking for datasets of a human body or head in any of the popular formats i m doing a presentation tomorrow which could be greatly enhanced by bringing in this human factor i ve looked around the net with no sucess so far anyone got any ideas i d also appreciate info on the location of datasets for the uss enterprise any model thanks in advance ronan
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard j mcdougald writes in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes of these application softwares we re using but even so how come one hasn t been written to my knowledge i mean even hijaak one of the commercial industry standards of file conversion hasn t attempted it yet adobe streamline has been out four a couple of years it does a much better job than the autotracing functions which are built into illustration programs of course a higher resolution bitmap will produce a more accurate trace the problem that i ve run into though is that when it creates a detailed trace it produces way more points than are necessary if i trace something manually i use many less es points the problem with this is it produces big files which slow everything down especially printing chuck y
comp.graphics	wanted scott leatham microsoft hello there a few days ago i got a mail concerning bitmap stretching from scott leatham microsoft redmond wa usa i really would like to answer back to him but i have lost his email address so if scott or anybody that knows his email address reads this please mail me his address so i can answer his mail please mail to d tm efd lth se thanks tomas
comp.graphics	re pov problems with tga outputs remember that the unix versions of pov don t create tga but qrt file format output by default ft is needed to make tga o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re pov ray problem please help what about qrttoppm file dis ppmtotga file tga o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard j mcdougald writes since there s no not really such thing as a decent raster to vector conversion program this tracing technique is about it simple stuff like b w logos etc do pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire the first and only thing i ve ever tried to auto trace was a piece of a uscg nautical chart using adobe illustrator i wanted to get the outline of the coast for western long island sound i was simultaneously suprised at how good a job it did and disappointed at how poorly it did i suspect what i gave it was a very difficult thing not only is the coastline very irregular but overlaid on the chart are numerous sets of gridlines not only lattitude and longitude but loran grids as well the most common mistake it make was whenever the coastline was roughly parallel and tangent to a grid line it would take off following the gridline instead of the coast i think the best improvement would be some sort of interactive algorithm that would let you step in and say no dummy you re going the wrong way steve reisberg a friend of mine a few years back did his doctoral work analysing electron micrographs of filimentous phage virii a good chunk of the work was writing a program to take a digitized micrograph and automatically trace the centerline of the virus particles this is essentially the same problem that illustrator tries to solve with its auto trace tool in some respects the problem steve worked on was harder since he was trying to do quantitative analysis of the virus structure and finding a good centerline was only the first step but a step on which all future analysis depended however in other respects it was an easier problem since the program could be written with a lot of knowledge about what the virus particles were supposed to look like and the analysis could be restricted to those particles which happend to be relatively straight clean and well imaged you don t always have that freedom auto tracing real life images in any case it gave me some insight into just how difficult this problem is to solve in the general case steve is no longer with us he and his wife disappeared while on vacation in hawaii a couple of years after they graduated their last known location was hiking in a densely wooded in a mountainous area while no bodies were ever found they are presumed to have been the victim of some sort of fall or accident in the woods roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.graphics	re rumours about do johnm spudge lonestar org john munsch writes in article lot rapnbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces it was very impressive what it can do in real time john munsch the april edition of mix magazine carries a story on do which includes pictures of the unit a schematic of what s inside and some indication from the people at do as to where they intend to go and in what stages mix is a trade rag aimed at the professional sound engineering community the schematic shows a central dma engine connecting and mediating between two graphics animation processors bit bus a bit risc processor with math co processor video decomp module a control port an expansion port where do hangs its double fast cd player mb dram an optional video port for editing video and on the outbound side mb vram to video processor to tv chain parallel with a dsp to sound chain they promise red book cd quality audio full fps video and a future connection path to your pc via a pc expansion card i am not informed enough to have an opinion about the various means and methods discussed here the article written by philip de lancie does cover the other machines mentioned in this thread i come from the pc tcp ip world and see a tremendous potential for bringing connectedness to the educated consumer do seems to have the right business partners to make this happen hope this helps david shute email dks world std com
comp.graphics	real d earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it so has anyone seen used real d for dos rauno rene haapaniemi i every word of it are true haapanatie d i except for those that are lies oulu i reneh otol fi i douglas adams
comp.graphics	hallusion info has anyone seen hallusions you can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a d picture i m looking for a program that generates these pictures there s a company in texas that makes them but i doubt if they re giving the program away any help would be appreciated
comp.graphics	cgm something preferably pcx does anybody know about a converter from cgm to pcx or anything else more common i ve spent some time searching the archives with no luck could you email me your responses thx in advance mike g d np jupiter sun csd unb ca
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali does anyone have any real experience with the kubota kenai denali series of graphics workstations they pretty much blow the pants off sgi machines and sun machines in the same price point which is about bucks real nice stuff but i ve only seen the stuff on paper i m wondering is there anything not to like the specs are too massive to get into here but if a summary is desired i could be coaxed into uploading the spec sheet brian
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain dat try spectrum xerox com in pub map dem
comp.graphics	re real d rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol fi wrote earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me yes it looks like very good indeed however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it nope regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p i don t want texture mapped cause if i did i d asked for them just a simple and fast routine to do filled polygons as for the processor it d be for a minimum of a maybe if i can t find a good one for s ideally i want a polyn function that can clip to a user defined viewport and write to an arbitrary location in memory of course the chances of ok it is for a game that is d and you have listed the characteristics that you are looking for i think you may have left out a few important parameters the polygons are all convex they have less than n sides you are drawing meshes walls doors etc i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier the less than n sides specification especially if it is a very small number like or allow othe optimisations to be made thus for a high speed game application i think you are looking for code that exploits and is hence limited to drawing simple convex polygons finding something like that are pretty remote so i guess i d need the source with it oh and i guess it would need to be in asm otherwise it d be too slow i ve seen some polygon routines in c and they ve all been waaay too slow its for a d vector graphics program i ve been hunting high and low it may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms if you limit yourself to or four sided simple convex polygons i think you might be suprised how fast a c algorithm with a asm block move to fill each scan line might actually be for a polyn function in asm and i can t find one anywhere that i can use i ve found one or two polyn functions but my asm is pretty bad so i won t even try to rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	apr comp graphics frequently asked questions faq archive name graphics faq this message is automatically posted once a week or so in an effort to cut down on the repetitive junk in comp graphics it was last changed on apr if you have answers to other frequently asked questions that you would like included in this posting please send me mail if you don t want to see this posting every week please add the subject line to your kill file thank you if your copy of the faq is more than a couple of weeks old you may want to seek out the most recent version the latest version of this faq is always available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers graphics faq john john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov johng portal com last update apr sorry i haven t posted this for a couple of weeks but i was called out of town due to a death in the family this is reality folks what s new siggraph online bibliography project spencer cgrg ohio state edu grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov contents general references for graphics questions drawing three dimensional objects on a two dimensional screen quantizing bit images down to bits converting color into grayscale quantizing grayscale to black white rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle free image manipulation software format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc converting between vector formats how to get pixar films how do i draw a circle as a bezier or b spline curve how to order standards documents how to ftp by email how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon how to tessellate a sphere specific references on ray tracing and global illumination siggraph information online siggraph panels proceedings available graphics mailing lists specific references on file formats what about gif what is morphing how to ray trace height fields how to find the area of a d polygon how to join acm siggraph where can i find mri and ct scan volume data specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees where can i get a program to plot xy z data or f x data specific references on pex and phigs siggraph online bibliography project general references for graphics questions computer graphics principles and practice nd ed j d foley a van dam s k feiner j f hughes addison wesley isbn procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill isbn mathematical elements for computer graphics nd ed david f rogers and j alan adams mcgraw hill isbn three dimensional computer graphics alan watt addison wesley isbn an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn graphics gems andrew glassner ed academic press isbn graphics gems ii james arvo ed academic press isbn graphics gems iii david kirk ed academic press isbn with ibm disk or with mac disk digital image warping george wolberg ieee computer society press monograph isbn digital image processing nd ed rafael c gonzalez paul wintz addison wesley isbn a programmer s geometry adrian bowyer john woodwark butterworths isbn pbk an automatic mail handler at brown university allows users of computer graphics principles and practice by foley van dam feiner and hughes to obtain text errata and information on distribution of the software packages described in the book also users can send the authors feedback to report text errors and software bugs make suggestions and submit exercises to receive information describing how you can use the mail handler simply mail graphtext cs brown edu and put the word help in the subject line use the subject line software distribution to receive information specifically concerning the software packages srgp and sphigs errata for an introduction to ray tracing is available on wuarchive wustl edu in graphics graphics books introtort errata errata for digital image warping is in the same directory as digital image warping errata all c code from the graphics gems series is available via anonymous ftp from princeton edu look in the directory pub graphics graphicsgems for the various volumes gems gemsii gemsiii and get the readme file first errata to graphics gems and graphics gems ii is available on wuarchive wustl edu in graphics graphics books a list of computer graphics computational geometry and image processing journals is available from juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi drawing three dimensional objects on a two dimensional screen the simple answer is you divide by the depth for a more verbose explanation see any of the above references starting with the foley van dam feiner hughes computer graphics book is certainly a good start chapter is viewing in d then read chapter visible surface determination for more information go to chapter for shading chapter for clipping and branch out from there quantizing bit images down to bits find a copy of color image quantization for frame buffer display by paul heckbert siggraph proceedings page there are other algorithms but this one works well and is fairly simple implementations are included in most raster toolkits see item below a variant method is described in graphics gems p note that the code from the graphics gems series is all available from an ftp site as described above check out john bradley s diversity algorithm which is incorporated into the xv package and described in the back of the manual the imagemagick package see section for where it is contains another quantizing algorithm which is presented as doing a better job than the other algorithms but slower there s also an implementation of wan wong and prusinkiewicz an algorithm for multidimensional data clustering transactions on mathematical software vol june pp avialable as princeton edu pub graphics colorquant shar this code in modified form appears in the utah raster toolkit as well converting color into grayscale the ntsc formula is luminosity red green blue quantizing grayscale to black white the only reference you need for this stuff is digital halftoning robert ulichney mit press isbn but before you go off and start coding check out the image manipulation software mentioned in item below all of the packages mentioned can do some form of gray to b w conversion rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle the obvious but wrong method is to loop over the pixels in the source image transform each coordinate and copy the pixel to the destination this is wrong because it leaves holes in the destination instead loop over the pixels in the destination image apply the reverse transformation to the coordinates and copy that pixel from the source this method is quite general and can be used for any one to one d mapping not just rotation you can add anti aliasing by doing sub pixel sampling however there is a much faster method with antialising included which involves doing three shear operations the method was originally created for the im raster toolkit see below an implementation is also present in pbmplus reference a fast algorithm for raster rotation by alan paeth awpaeth watcgl waterloo edu graphics interface vancouver an article on the im toolkit appears in the same journal an updated version of the rotation paper appears in graphics gems see section under the original title free image manipulation software there are a number of toolkits for converting from one image format to another doing simple image manipulations such as size scaling plus the above mentioned color gray gray b w conversions here are pointers to some of them xv by john bradley x based image display manipulation and format conversion package xv displays many image formats and permits editing of gif files among others the program was updated see the file contrib xv tar z on export lcs mit edu pbmplus by jef poskanzer comprehensive format conversion and image manipulation package the latest version is always available via anonymous ftp as ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages pbmplus pbmplus tar z and export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus tar z im raster toolkit by alan paeth awpaeth watcgl uwaterloo ca provides a portable and efficient format and related toolkit the format is versatile in supporting pixels of arbitrary channels components and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine byte order independence the kit contains more than tools with extensive support of image manipulation digital halftoning and format conversion previously distributed on tape c o the university of waterloo an ftp version will appear someday utah rle toolkit conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus available via ftp as cs utah edu pub urt princeton edu pub graphics urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt fuzzy pixmap manipulation by michael mauldin mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus version available via ftp as nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z ftp uu net pub fbm tar z and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z img software set by paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays on an x screen and does some image manipulations version is available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib img tar z and venera isi edu pub img tar z along with a large collection of color images xim x image manipulator by philip r thompson it does essential interactive image manipulations and uses x r and the osf motif toolkit for the interface it supports images in and bit formats reads writes and converts to from gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim and other formats writes level postscript other utilities and image application library are included not a paint package available via ftp from gis mit edu xloadimage by jim frost madd std com reads in images in various formats and displays them on an x screen available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib xloadimage and in your nearest comp sources x archive xli by grame gill is an updated xloadimage with numerous improvements in both speed and in the number of formats supported available in the same places as xloadimage contrib tape comp sources x archives tiff software by sam leffler sam okeeffe berkeley edu nice portable library for reading and writing tiff files plus a few tools for manipulating them and reading other formats available via ftp as ucbvax berkeley edu pub tiff tar z or ftp uu net graphics tiff tar z xtiff an x tool for viewing a tiff file it was written to handle as many different kinds of tiff files as possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes it is distributed as part of sam leffler s libtiff package and it is also available on export lcs mit edu ftp uu net and comp sources x xtiff was announced in it includes xlib and xt versions alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk popi an image manipulation language version posted to comp sources misc on dec imagemagick an x package for display and interactive manipulation of images includes tools for image conversion annotation compositing animation and creating montages imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z khoros a huge meg graphical development environment based on x r khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages available via ftp as pprg eece unm edu pub khoros laboimage a sunview based image processing and analysis package it includes more than image manipulation processing and measurement routines on line help plus tools such as an image editor a color table editor and several biomedical utilities available via anonymous ftp as ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage tar z the san diego supercomputer center image tools software tools for reading writing and manipulating raster images binaries for some machines available via anonymous ftp in sdsc edu sdscpub the independent jpeg group has written a package for reading and writing jpeg files ftp to ftp uu net graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z don t forget to set binary mode when you ftp tar files for you milnet folks who still don t have name servers the ip addresses are ads com cs utah edu coral cs jcu edu au export lcs mit edu freebie engin umich edu ftp ee lbl gov ftp uu net or gis mit edu gondwana ecr mu oz au karazm math uh edu marsh cs curtin edu au nic funet fir ftp ncsa uiuc edu nl cs cmu edu pit manager mit edu pprg eece unm edu princeton edu sdsc edu ucbvax berkeley edu venera isi edu weedeater math yale edu wuarchive wustl edu zamenhof cs rice edu please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message see item below for details on some also the newsgroup alt graphics pixutils is specifically for discussion of software like this you may find useful information there format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc you almost certainly don t need these read the above item on free image manipulation software get one or more of these packages and look through them chances are excellent that the image converter you were going to write is already there but if you still want one of the format documents many such files are available by anonymous ftp from zamenhof cs rice edu in directory pub graphics formats these files were collected off the net and are believed to be correct this archive includes pixel formats and two and three dimensional object formats the future of this archive is uncertain at the moment as mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it a second graphics file format archive is now being actively maintained by quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu the latest version exists at ftp ncsa uiuc edu in misc file formats graphics formats apparently neither of these is complete you might want to check both fits stands for flexible image transport system it s a file format most often used in astronomy despite the name it can contain not only images but other things as well there is a regular monthly fits basics and information posting on sci astro fits read it if you want to know more converting between vector formats a lot of people ask about converting from hpgl to postscript or macdraw to cgm or whatever it is important to understand that this is a very different problem from the image format conversions in item converting one image format to another is a fairly easy problem since once you get past all the file header junk a pixel is a pixel the basic objects are the same for all image formats this is not so for vector formats the basic objects circles ellipses drop shadowed pattern filled round cornered rectangles etc vary from one format to another except in extremely restricted cases it is simply not possible to do a one to one conversion between vector formats there is software for converting to and from cgm files on ftp psc edu the contributor states that it runs on unix ms windows and possibly the mac a better more specific blurb would be most welcome on the other hand it is quite possible to do a close approximation rendering an image from one format using the primitives from another as far as i know no one has put together a general toolkit of such converters but two different hpgl to postscript converters have been posted to comp sources misc check the index on your nearest archive site a related frequent question is how to convert from some vector format to a bitmapped image from postscript to sun raster format or hpgl to x bitmap for example some of the commercial postscript clones for pc s allow you to render to a disk file as well as a printer also the postscript interpreters in the next box and in sun s x news can be used to render to a file if you re clever but in general the answer is no however if someone were to put together a vector to vector conversion toolkit adding a vector to raster converter would be trivial gnu ghostscript from the fsf current version includes drivers for both ppm and gif format files thus it can be used as a postscript to ppm or a postscript to gif filter it implements essentially all of postscript level and alot of display postscript and level how to get pixar films the various john lasseter pixar computer animated shorts are available on video tape you can order them from direct cinema limited film individual price institutional price luxo jr red s dream tin toy knickknack luxo jr red s dream tin toy all tapes are on vhs ntsc add tape for pal format also available tin toy t shirt knickknack d t shirt includes glasses for individual orders add s h for the first tape or shirt for each additional tape or shirt for institutional orders add s h for the first tape for each additional tape foreign shipping add tape or shirt call international fax to charge to your credit card call first to verify prices and availability or just write to direct cinema limited th street santa monica ca allan braunsdorf has this to say at siggraph they were selling a tape with all four shorts for that was a sale price you can get it for slightly more than that normally maybe i believe it s available from renderman retail at pixar s address pixar west cutting blvd richmond ca fax you can obtain a video directly from pixar which contains luxo jr red s dream tin toy and knicknack for plus for shipping they will take your order over the phone or via fax with a major credit card i ordered mine just last week and received it several days later don t expect to be able to rent a copy from your local video store according to the license agreement printed on the back cover of the case it cannot be rented how do i draw a circle as a bezier or b spline curve the short answer is you can t unless you use a rational spline you can only approximate a circle the approximation may look acceptable but it is sensitive to scale magnify the scale and the error of approximation magnifies deviations from circularity that were not visible in the small can become glaring in the large if you want to do the job right consult the article a menagerie of rational b spline circles by leslie piegl and wayne tiller in ieee computer graphics and applications volume number september pages for rough non rational approximations consult the book computational geometry for design and manufacture by i d faux and m j pratt ellis horwood publishers halsted press john wiley for the best known non rational approximations consult the article good approximation of circles by curvature continuous bezier curves by tor dokken morten daehlen tom lyche and knut morken in computer aided geometric design volume numbers combined june pages elsevier science publishers north holland how to order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office is at mailing address is broadway ny ny it helps if you have the complete name and number some useful numbers to know cgm computer graphics metafile is iso gks graphical kernel system is ansi x phigs programmer s hierarchical interactive graphics system is ansi x iges is asme ansi y m language bindings are often separate but related numbers for example the gks fortran binding is x standards in progress are made available at key milestones to solicit comments from the graphical public this includes you ansi can let you know where to order them most are available from global engineering at how to ftp by email there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail in addition there is at least one ftp by mail server send mail to ftpmail decwrl dec com saying help and it will tell you how to use it note that this service has at times been turned off due to abuse how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon consider a ray originating at the point of interest and continuing to infinity if it crosses an odd number of polygon edges along the way the point is within the polygon if the ray crosses an even number of edges the point is either outside the polygon or within an interior hole formed from intersecting polygon edges this idea is known in the trade as the jordan curve theorem see eric haines article in glassner s ray tracing book above for more information including treatment of special cases another method is to sum the absolute angles from the point to all the vertices on the polygon if the sum is pi the point is inside if the sum is the point is outside however this method is about an order of magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the trigonometric functions is usually quite costly code for both methods plus barycentric triangle testing can be found in the ray tracing news vol no available from princeton edu pub graphics rtnews rtnv n z how to tessellate a sphere one simple way is to do recursive subdivision into triangles the base of the recursion is an octahedron and then each level divides each triangle into four smaller ones jon leech leech cs unc edu has posted a nice routine called sphere c that generates the coordinates it s available for ftp on ftp ee lbl gov and princeton edu specific references on ray tracing and global illumination rick speer maintains a cross indexed ray tracing bibliography highlights of this edition i more than citations spanning the period from through november ii papers from all siggraph graphics interface eurographics cg international and ausgraph proceedings through december iii all citations keyworded for easy lookup iv cross indices by keyword and author v glossary of the keywords used the bib is in the form of a postscript file the printout is pages long below is a list of ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file it s named speer raytrace bib ps z and is compressed at most sites site dir wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics bib rt bib speer karazm math uh edu pub graphics gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers nic funet fi pub sci papers graphics coral cs jcu edu au graphics papers eric haines erich eye com maintains ray tracing and radiosity global illumination bibliographies these are in refer format and so can be searched electronically a simple awk script to search for keywords is included with each the bibliographies are available at most of the sites listed above and the most current versions are maintained at princeton edu pub graphics papers as raybib and radbib tom wilson wilson cs ucf edu has collected over abstracts from ray tracing related research papers and books the information is essentially in plaintext and latex and troff formatting programs are included this collection is available at most of the sites above as rtabs siggraph information online from steve cunningham and ralph orlick acm siggraph announces its online information site at siggraph org this site now provides siggraph information via both anonymous ftp and an electronic mail archive server the anonymous ftp service is very standard and the ftp directory includes both conference and publications subdirectories to retrieve information by electronic mail send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information siggraph panels proceedings available from steve cunningham and bob judd acm siggraph announces the availability of the siggraph panels proceedings at the siggraph org site the proceedings are available in three formats text ascii rtf rich text format suitable for many word processors word ms word for the macintosh they may be retrieved from siggraph org in two ways by anonymous ftp change to one of the directories publications s panels proceedings text rtf word the text and rtf files may be downloaded in ascii mode while the word files are stored in macbinary format and must be downloaded in binary mode each directory contains a table of contents file toc that describes the contents of each panel file by electronic mail send mail to archive server siggraph org you can retrieve either the text or rtf files we suggest that you first retrieve the index files by putting one of the messages send panel txt index send panel rtf index in the subject or body of the message you will get the necessary information to retrieve the actual transcript files graphics mailing lists there are a variety of graphics related mailing list out there each covering either a single product or a single topic i have been an active participant in one of these for some time now and find the focus and expertise which can be brought to bear on an isolated topic to be nothing short of amazing please send me the appropriate information if you have any others you would like to see added name imagine mailing list description discussion forum for users of the imagine d rendering and animation package by impulse inc platforms amiga ibm subscription imagine request email sp paramax com posting imagine email sp paramax com name dctv mailing list description discussion forum for users of the digital creations dctv box software and file formats platforms amiga subscription dctv request nova cc purdue edu posting dctv nova cc purdue edu name rayshade users mailing list description discussion forum for users of the rayshade raytracer platforms most unix boxes amiga mac ibm subscription rayshade request cs princeton edu posting rayshade users cs princeton edu name lightwave d software for toaster mailing list description discussion forum for users of lightwave the video toaster modelling and rendering package platforms amiga subscription lightwave request bobsbox rent com with subscribe lightwave l in your message posting lightwave bobsbox rent com name pov mailing list description discussion forum for dkbtrace and pov renderers platforms unix subscription listserv trearn bitnet posting dkb l trearn bitnet name mailing list for massive parallel rendering description same platforms unix subscription mp render request icase edu posting mp render icase edu specific references on file formats graphics file formats david kay and john levine windcrest mcgraw hill isbn paper isbn hardcover isbn paper comments formats no software this is good imho i prefer books which are non platform dependent questions about this book may be sent to gbook iecc cambridge ma us what about gif gif stands for graphics interchange format it is portable and usable upon a wide variety of platforms it is quite limited in some ways yes the keeper of the faq has some opinions after all and in fact i don t like it much however it looks to me like the most frequently asked question which was not previously covered in this list the following is a list of newsgroups and the like where one could go to find out about gif subject alt binaries pictures faq general info subject alt binaries pictures faq os specific info newsgroups alt binaries pictures d alt binaries pictures misc alt binaries pictures utilities alt binaries pictures fractals alt binaries pictures fine art d news answers available in the indicated usenet newsgroup s or via anonymous ftp from pit manager mit edu in the files pub usenet news answers pictures faq part pub usenet news answers pictures faq part also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing any or all of send usenet news answers pictures faq part send usenet news answers pictures faq part send a message containing help to get general information about the mail server also you could check out the resources described in sections and above for more information what is morphing warping is the deformation of an image by mapping each pixel to a new location morphing is blending from one image or object to another one valerie hall has written an excellent introduction to warping and morphing this is available for anonymous ftp from marsh cs curtin edu au in the directory pub graphics bibliography morph there are three files morph intro ps z postscript version many pictures m morph intro txt z text version m responses z responses to morphing questions the files are compressed so you must use binary transfer and uncompress them afterwards how to ray trace height fields height fields are a special case in ray tracing they have a number of uses such as terrain rendering and some optimization is possible thus they get their own faq section note that further references can no doubt be located via the ray tracing bibs in section above the following paper seems to be the definitive reference f kenton musgrave grid tracing fast ray tracing for height fields july musg ps z this is available as research report yaleu dcs rr from yale university it s also in the siggraph fractal modeling in d computer graphics and imaging course notes and best of all it s available on the net nic funet fi pub sci papers musg ps z weedeater math yale edu pub papers musg ms z princeton edu pub graphics papers musg ms z coral cs jcu edu au graphics papers musg ps z gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers musg ms z and musg ps z an implementation of this paper may be found in rayshade another paper exists a david w paglieroni a sidney m petersen t parametric height field ray tracing j proceedings of graphics interface i canadian information processing society c toronto ontario d may p and still one more musgrave kolb and mace the synthesis and rendering of eroded fractal terrains computer graphics vol no siggraph procedings p how to find the area of a d polygon the area of a triangle is given by in c notation area x y x y x y x y x y x y and the area of a planar polygon is given by area for i i n i area x i y i x i y i area x n y x y n area if the area is a negative number the polygon or triangle is clockwise if positive it is counterclockwise from ronald golman s gem in graphics gems ii see section above area of planar polygons and volume of polyhedra the area of a polygon p p p pn not in the x y plane is given by area polygon n sigma pk x pk where n is the unit vector normal to the plane and p is a polygonal vertex the represents the dot product operator and the x represents the cross product operator sigma represents the summation operator represents the absolute value operator pn is equal to p how to join acm siggraph probably the easiest way to join acm siggraph is to trot over to your local technical library and find a copy of communications of the acm somewhere within the first few pages will be an application blank fill it out and mail it in acm membership for students costs voting or associate membership yearly siggraph student membership costs an additional for voting or associate members also yearly to get tog transactions on graphics it s another for students and for voting or associate members if you just want to join siggraph without joining acm it ll cost you no student discount there are surcharges for overseas airmailing of publications acm member services may be contacted via email at acmhelp acmvm bitnet their phone number is fax number snailmail address acm po box church street station new york new york siggraph will be held in anaheim california at the anaheim convention center just up the street from disneyland on august where can i find mri and ct scan volume data volume data sets are available from the university of north carolina at omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd commerical use is prohibited head data a slice mri data set of a human head knee data a slice mri data set of a human knee hipip data the result of a quantum mechanical calculation of a sod data of a one electron orbital of hipip an iron protein sod data an electron density map of the active site of sod superoxide dismutase ct cadaver head data a slice mri data set of a ct study of a cadaver head mr brain data a slice mri data set of a head with skull partially removed to reveal brain rna data an electron density map for staphylococcus aureus ribonuclease specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees h samet the design and analysis of spatial data structures addison wesley reading ma isbn h samet applications of spatial data structures computer graphics image processing a nd gis addison wesley reading ma isbn where can i get a program to plot xy z data or f x data gnuplot is a command driven interactive data function plotting program it runs on just about any machine and is very flexible in terms of supported output devices the official north american distribution site for the latest version is dartmouth edu in pub gnuplot more information is available from the usenet newsgroup comp graphics gnuplot and its faq graphics gnuplot faq ace gr xmgr motif xvgr xview is a data function plotting tool for workstations or x terminals using x available from ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr robotx robot is a general purpose plotting and data analysis program requires xview x terminal or workstation available from sunsite unc edu in pub academic data analysis xgraph is a popular two dimensional plotting program that accepts data in a form similar to the unix program graph and displays line graphs scatter plots or bar charts on an x display available from ic berkeley edu in pub drawplot is a program for drawing d plots on x x windows sunview displays or hp terminals available from xcf berkeley edu in src local specific references on pex and phigs pexlib programming manual tom gaskins pages o reilly associates isbn pexlib reference manual edited by steve talbott pages o reilly associates isbn phigs programming manual tom gaskins pages o reilly associates isbn softcover isbn casebound phigs reference manual edited by linda kosko pages o reilly associates isbn siggraph online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org john t grieggs telos jet propulsion laboratory oak grove drive pasadena ca m s uucp cit vax elroy chas jpl devvax grieggs arpa jpl devvax grieggs cit vax arpa
comp.graphics	avi to flc converter i am looking for a small utility that will convert a microsoft video avi file to an autodesk animator pro flc file since avis also contain sound it would be nice if this utility also stored the sound track as a wav or voc file currently i m accomplishing this by saving the avi as multiple dibs using video for windows then converting each dib to a gif then loading the gifs into animator for the sound i load the original avi into wavedit and save it as a seperate wav file this requires too many steps to be productive any help will be greatly appreciated thanks don don campbell internet donc cognos com uucp cognos donc cognos inc mail p o box riverside drive ottawa ontario canada k g z
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives i do not know if i am hitting the right news groups or not any help in the right direction is more than welcome i need help finding a company that will take photographic images scanned in and modified by adobe photoshop and turn them into thermal prints or negatives i am looking for a place as close to north carolina as possible the images will be created on a macintosh quadra running adobe photoshop and will then be stored in whatever format the vendor requires perhaps m cartridges the images will be black and white photographs scanned in with a dpi scanner then modified corrected by adobe photoshop if anyone could help me or even give me phone numbers to people who could i would be very grateful also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great david at hawks seq uncwil edu or hawks dw wl corning com
comp.graphics	need help to find out the address of several companies doing graphics lucas film pixar d eye inc light magic thanks changyaw wangc cs indiana edu
comp.graphics	research positions in d graphics munich germany european computer research centre research positions in d graphics ecrc is currently expanding its research staff in three dimensional graphics we are looking for highly qualified researchers with a phd in computer science and a proven ability to conduct highly innovative research preference will be given to candidates who have strong experience in developing and implementing algorithms for three dimensional graphics visualization and user interaction we presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and recent graduates candidates with especially strong backgrounds may be considered for positions as visiting scientists or for ph d student research positions the european computer industry research centre is located in munich germany with english as the working language the centre is funded by a consortium of major computer companies with a mission to pursue research in fundamental areas of computer science active areas of research include visualization and user interfaces distributed computing parallelism deductive systems and databases the center employs researchers of different nationalities the small but rapidly growing graphics group is currently investigating new methods for three dimensional human computer interaction and the integration of computer vision and computer graphics technology the center has extensive computing facilities which includes sun workstations apple macintoshes a well equipped graphics laboratory and network access to super computer facilities ecrc offers competitive salaries and excellent benefits for immediate consideration send a written application with curriculum vitae telephone number e mail address and references to douglas greer ecrc gmbh arabellastrasse d munich germany
comp.graphics	re wanted playmation info in article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail playmation is available direct from anjon associates for it s hard to beat that price also you d be better off with a newer version than an older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered thanks in advance mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	re bit graphics wonko the sane oehler yar cs wisc edu wrote i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor i m pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific systems i e photo processing gear use as much as bits of color info why why not oversampling is never a bad idea especially if the hardware s only task is image manipulation and profressional photographers demand professional results also to settle a bet with my roommate what are sgi s flagship products i know of iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which is their top of the line sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh strange question but anyway there s the vgx line the newer indigo and the onyx systems are the new big boys on the block you can get a processor system with twice the graphics performance of a reality engine there s more but i don t have my handy periodic table of sgi s on me keith
comp.graphics	re hallusion info sean murphy sean aries scs uiuc edu wrote has anyone seen hallusions you can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a d picture i m looking for a program that generates these pictures there s a company in texas that makes them but i doubt if they re giving the program away any help would be appreciated there is a program included with the book virtual reality playhouse which will let you generate these pictures it s not a very powerful program but it does an acceptable job for experimentation purposes davidr rincon ema rockwell com
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn pt i cant get through to the author of rtrace his site is inaccessible can he upload the new version somewhere else please
comp.graphics	nd rfd for open telematic group for realtime multimedia online apps rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg i have proposed the forming of a consortium task force for the promotion of naplps jpeg fif to openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions of naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation of real time online applications that make use of voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax in addition these dicussion would assist all to better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl v fast eia tia can best be incorporated and implemented to develop telematic multimedia applications we want to be able to support dos unix mac windows nt os platforms it is our hope that individuals developers corporations universities r d labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor this would be a not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporation have decided to support otg open telematic group so do not delay joining if you are a developer an rfd has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a faq will soon be be compose to start promulgating what is known on the subject if you would like to be added to the mailist send email or mail to the address below this group would publish an electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter as well as a hardcopy version we urge all who wants to see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg g r o w decide to join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined by mr james martin as the marriage of voice video hi res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan if you would like to get involve write to me at img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com p o box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia us cis fidonet bbs zyxel k to all that have responded we are trying to acknowledge as soon as possible we have really been inundated with org corp edu willing to get involve it would be nice if upon responded you can state in what capacity you are willing to get involve edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	ds inv normal array does anyone truely understand the invalid normal array error ds gives you while rendering it seems to present itself while rendering complicated images i have circumvented this problem by rendering at the command line however it would be nice to render inside the editor is this a memory problem craig
comp.graphics	format of gif files could anyone tell me the format of gif files i would like to know how i could determine the size of the picture also are gif files in compressed format how many bits store pixel color information this is probally a simple question but i couldn t find it in the faq email responses would be perferred david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	re bit graphics a good reason which is why many companies use it for bits pixel is so you can use double buffering for animating scenes i e you have bit planes you write to the one in the background and then flip the entire screen updates to the second image plane the screen updates in one refresh and you don t see different objects appearing in the order that they re drawn as in the cad macdraw effect now your ready to update the image that used to be in the foreground steve thssstb iitmax iit edu iris iit edu about the sg product line who can even keep track nowadays every co seems to as their ads press releases claim redefine computing etc etc as we know it with each new product progress and competition are great but who wants to invest in a system that s obsolete by the time it reaches your desk
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions buy adobe streamline problem solved college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan p malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame in n d dept of physics comp sci malayter nd edu
comp.graphics	pc oak vga driver available via ftp a user on my bbs accidentally deleted his vga driver for his oak card and has no backup i was wondering if someone knew of an ftp site and path please where such a thing might be obtained thanks there is no religion when a man has good curry call the lizard s den bbs it s yoda usenet nethack xix pc amiga tim clinkenpeel aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist i exclusively represent myself
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article rguqoinnrc edna cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au alan christiansen writes i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this is all c on hp pa risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span as fast as possible as far as i could tell for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time and can be made all convex definitely the way to go p s sorry but my code cannot be made public domain jesse jesse lackey d eye inc ithaca ny jesse eye com
comp.graphics	fast polygon routines needed i am looking for some fast polygon routines shaded or texture mapped in asm compile with masm or in turbo pascal compile with tp it has to be able to run on a but does not have to look super fast on a but must look good on a if anyone has any such code could you please mail it to me or tell me where it can be got thanks in advance daniel godden genius is only one step away university of western sydney nepean from insanity aarnet internet dgodden st nepean usw edu au but me i am already there
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts i ve tried compiling it on several sparcstations with gcc after fixing up a few bugs missing constant definitions plus a couple of other things i got it to compile link but after starting client server i just get a black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes i get a broken pipe sometimes it just sits there doing nothing although i occassionally get the cursor to become a cross hair in dog fight but that s it i ve sent word to the author plus what i did to fix it last week but no reply as yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au
comp.graphics	graph traversal algorithms hi everyone i am currently planning to write a program that traverses the image of handwritten characters in ascii format and produces circle and line representation of handwritten characters did anybody out there has any experiences on this problem if you have would you post or e mail to please kevin does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces circle and line kevin shin kshin bcstec ca boeing com
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article c r bm lh mach wlu ca mart mach wlu ca phil martin u writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious yes i also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup i am also against splitting the group the traffic will decrease on any given subject but the required net bandwidth will increase because of multiply cross postings i just went through this with another group i continuously read it is now almost at the point where it is no longer worth reading strongly suggest not doing this dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted grayscale dithering routine i have some color gifs which i would like to archive in a much smaller size using a grayscale palette of shades the quantization to grays introduces some ugly bands in the pictures which can be nicely eliminated by dithering up to now i have used xv to process the images but now i would like to automate the procedure the problem is that xv can t i think convert images automatically and the obvious alternative pnmplus ppmquant and pnmdither don t even get close to xv s quality pnmdither apparently dithers in rgb even though the images are in grayscale the dithering routine in xv seems to use the natural image colors for the dither is this or any similar routine available in the public domain if so where niclas mattsson exjob math chalmers se
comp.graphics	vrrend where is it kept i m told that vrrend is available on the internet i wanted to know where it is thanks in advance raoul daruwala cs nyu edu
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d the is made by someone other than motorola signetics perhaps and was if memory serves me correctly a compatible single chip micro type chip ie built in extra toys like serial ports ram interfaces etc so laugh all you want but there is such a critter gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet uu net or even some days
comp.graphics	re mgr naplps gui bbs frontends hi all i am looking into methods i can use to turn my linux based bbs into a full color graphical bbs that supports pc mac linux and amiga callers originally i was inspired by the naplps graphics standard a summary of which hit this group about weeks ago i posted that document forgot part etc but it was more than a summary it was a complete technical description of the protocol it can be ftped from simtel or from wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors msdos naplps following up on software availability of naplps supporting software i find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being pp which runs soley on msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users to buy full commercial software if they want to try out the bbs i know i wouldn t next most interesting possibility is to port mgr to pc mac amiga i why not write a naplps decoder for your choice of platform and release the code to the net then other willing souls can help port it to other platforms naplps was designed for this type of online interactive graphics much the same as x but while x is intended for high bandwidth network connections naplps was optimized for low bandwidth modem connections is there a color version of mgr for linux does anyone have any other suggestions for a linux based gui bbs i m sure you will receive other suggestions but look at it this way if you wanted to provide a full network connection to linux over a modem would you use slip ppp or would you invent some new way most people would say that slip ppp exist and are reasonably well designed protocols so lets just implement them i see it the same way with naplps it is an existing well thought out extensible protocol for online graphics so why not implement it if you need any advice on implementation just e mail me i am currently getting a beta version of my coreldraw to naplps converter working well enough to release it by may if you or someone else does not get going on a freely available naplps decoder then i intend to do it after i get a my conversion program out of beta and get a couple of other things done michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c powerhouse fidonet rr armstrong bc v e b voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	patches for sungks due to a number of bugs in gks under sunos i installed patches and patch appears to work fine and has fixed a number of problems patch however which is required to fix a number of other annoying bugs breaks with our applications is there a more recent revision of patch any other ideas scott sloan email cesws cc newcastle edu au university of newcastle fax nsw australia
comp.graphics	re psygnosis cd i titles was re rumours about do mark samson samson prlhp prl philips co uk wrote speaking of psygnosis they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd i and for the commodore cdtv regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	front end for povray g day all does anyone know anything about front end for povray x version i mean are there things like user friendly modeller for povray or any modellers which will let me design a scene and produce a file which povray can then read cheers tomek tm tomek tpiatek comp vuw ac nz new zealand tm tomek tpiatek comp vuw ac nz new zealand
comp.graphics	vatican library the vatican library recently made a tour of the us can anyone help me in finding a ftp site where this collection is available thanx in advance j watson
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of on wed apr gmt se psh brunel ac uk peter hauke said peter joachim lous joachim kih no wrote peter does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from peter yep here s a theory that i once heard bandied around rather than thinking peter of the number think of the sound for tea two a sort of anagram on tea for two peter two for tea for tea two un other suggestion is there is no tea above it just and for two many things are possible think binary y n l r t f no wonder there was eve for adam peter malek malek we cooperate in what we agree on and forgive each other for that in which we disagree hassan el banna
comp.graphics	raytracing colours i have a question about recursive backward raytracing when an incident ray i strikes an object at point p first the normal n is calculated light rays are calculated l to ln where n is the number of light sources these being the light rays that do not intersect with anything the reflected ray r and the transmitted ray t is calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively on r and t will return the colours along the rays r and t as rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol i n the question is how do you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol s to get the correct resulting colour to return along the i ray all colours are defined as strucures records having r g b components between and if anyone has done this before could you give me a few hints adrian secchia asecchia cs uct ac za
comp.graphics	re bit graphics apollo now hp have a graphics board that does bit graphics when i heard that i jumped the answer isn t that it can do trillion trillion trillion colors it actually does planes of bits or planes of bits etc for very fast graphics douginoz
comp.graphics	lasergraphics language hi we have an old montage fr mm film recorder when connected to a pc with its processor card it can directly take hpgl targa and lasergraphics language files bit targa is quite ok for raster images but conversion from whatever one happens to have can be quite slow this lasergraphics language seems to be got the source file for one test image a vector based language that can handle one million colors it does some polygons too and perhaps something else the question is where can i find some information about this language a ftp site a book a company address ok it would be nice to have a windows driver for it but i m not that optimistic thanks in advance for any help jussi jussi laaksonen computing centre bo akademi university finland
comp.graphics	matrox pg cv windows driver hi i need a windows driver for the matrox pg cv svga card at the moment windows runs only in the x mode if you have a driver for this card please send it with the oemsetup inf to bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik tu muenchen de o o ooo ooo it s not a bug it s an undocumented feature
comp.graphics	re help needed on hidden line removal in article raynor beech cs scarolina edu raynor cs scarolina edu harold brian raynor writes i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code or pseudo code would be especially helpful i am required to do this for a class due monday we have very little time to implement these changes it is a very fast paced class the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired so i would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would be nice roberts or no the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another if you can give me an ftp address and filename or even the name of a good book i d really appreciate it g day brian i ll be blunt about this the only reasonable explanation of roberts algorithm is in procedural elements for computer graphics rogers mcgraw hill book co go to the library and look at this there is also a somewhat muddled explanation in the first edition of newman and sproull the algorithm described in pecg runs in near linear time luck dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted how to do a screen dump of a vga screen how can one dump to the printer the content of a vga screen if it were a text screen we can execute a shift printscr but with graphics we have to do a pixed by pixel print it would be greatly appreciated if someone can supply source code for this alternately are there commercial or shareware programs that are available to do this i must be able to shell out of my program to execute this print screen therefore it would be prefferable to have source code thank you in advance rickey tom internet style aruba rickt uu psi com programmer analyst project ze uucp uunet uupsi aruba rickt
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r rsiinnld zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises corel draw will do it version onwards if you have version perhaps an upgrade is in order another alternative would be to use a different bureau that can take postscript chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re needed plotting package that does in c qgf k i alta oh com chris zeus alta oh com chris murphy writes in article full gl apr dolphin pts mot com full gl pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like hi see roger grywalski s response to re help on network visualization in comp graphics visualization could someone please post roger grywalski s response or point me to where i could find it thanks a lot s raj chaudhury dept of physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan ks s raj chaudhury dept of physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan ks
comp.graphics	c classes for graphics i m planning on writing several classes to build a raytracing radiosity library on top of and i m wondering if anythink like this is freely available on the net before i go to it what i need is classes like rays vectors colors shaders surfaces media primitives worlds containing primitives and views images please post or mail torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article r iv cba cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes recent discussion about xv s problems were held in some newsgroup here is some text users of xv might find interesting i have also minor ideas for bit xv e mail me for them deleted for space basically complaints that xv is an bit program and that making several modifications to the rgb sliders is slow because of screen updates in reverse order try clicking in the auto apply box to switch it off then make your mods then click on apply there is no problem as stated it has already been solved if you look carefully yes xv is an bit program this is not a bug you can edit individual pallette entries or do global colour changes crop scale etc clearly the program must save out the altered image else all your work would be thrown away so yes it saves out bit images of course xv can import bit images and quantises them down to bits this is a handy facility not a bug how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially and lastly jpeg is a compression algorithm it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth again this is not a bug it is a way of saving disk space later chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re vatican library reposted by request these images are great but they are also large x pixels is a typical size be warned regards tom lane from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires newsgroups comp archives subject rec arts books vatican library exhibit at library of congress online date feb gmt x original newsgroups rec arts books x original date feb gmt archive name auto rec arts books vatican library exhibit at library of congress online this is from another newsgroup looks quite interesting rms announcing a new online exhibit from the library of congress rome reborn the vatican library renaissance culture an exhibit at the library of congress washington dc available by anonymous ftp from seq loc gov pub vatican exhibit rome reborn the vatican library and renaissance culture presents some of the vatican library s most precious manuscripts books and maps many of which played a key role in the humanist recovery of the classical heritage of greece and rome the exhibition presents the untold story of the vatican library as the intellectual driving force behind the emergence of rome as a political and scholarly superpower during the renaissance the exhibit will be on display in the jefferson building of the library of congress from january through april the online exhibit will be available by anonymous ftp indefinitely the exhibit is divided into nine sections the vatican library archaeology humanism mathematics music medicine biology nature described a wider world i how the orient came to rome and a wider world ii how rome went to china each section consists of its own sub directory within the exhibit directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and separate jpeg image files for each object this online exhibit includes not only objects from the library of congress exhibit but also the alternate objects brought from rome to be used if there were a problem with one of the primary objects and items omitted later in the planning process this exhibit will be of interest to medieval and renaissance scholars in particular but also to art historians historians of science or medicine early music scholars students of the humanist movement students of printing and the printed word theologians scholars of both far and near eastern studies and to librarians and information professionals please get the readme file for details on what files this exhibit contains if you have questions about how to use ftp speak to your local computer support person if you have questions or comments about the content of the exhibit please write to vatican kell loc gov while if you have any questions or comments on the system please contact me k d ellis k d ellis special projects office library of congress washington dc internet kell seq loc gov
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r gmginn fm zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal version did it quite well apart from a few hassles with radial fills version revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap at least it does on my version oh ok then sorry for misunderstanding if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper maybee you should persuade your burea that for only they can become much more competitive taking input from autocad postscript andgif as well as scodl seriously this sounds like something the bureau should have or find another bureau you should not be the one buting this software chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article c w xb iv world std com wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac corel draw will be able to do this as it will include the photopaint stuff that the pc version got with version don t hold your breath though chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re bit graphics in article apr cs wisc edu oehler yar cs wisc edu wonko the sane writes i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor well bit colour could be for improved resolution but bits per channel seems like a bit excessive i have seen a paper that quoted bits per channel of bits for computational precision more than that would seem to be wasted perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits to represent the full range rgb is a cube so it is a compact encoding most likely however is that there are two separate bit bits per component frame buffers this set up called double buffering allows a complex d picture to be built up on one buffer while the other buffer containing the previous frame is displayed this makes for smoother animation sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh well hey if you want to brag about numbers the range can take a pxg turbo card with bits per pixel full double buffering two bit buffers a bit z buffer and an extra bit buffer for off screen image storage mind you the card costs more than your workstation chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible scanning and altering is no big deal i don t know what types of features you have in your version of photoshop but the one i use which incidentally is on a quadra has gallery effects and all types of other neato stuff i m just wondering why you would want to put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that s your print do you know what exactly your aim is in all of this like are you doing this just for fun for a business to gain more computer knowledge for a project you re working on otherwise i guess i don t know if i d be helping or not by posting info on scanning and stuff ok cool seeya jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably to ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which is provided in the toolkit i seem to remember that xloadimage can do bit servers too possibly xwud the x window un dump program can display bit images certainly xwd can grab them chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	povray tga rle hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong error messages are targatorle o o rle data tga xloadimage o rle o rle is a x bit rle image with no map will dither to bits with gamma of dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation on x xloadimage x error badwindow invalid window parameter on xb i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems thanks in advance j park
comp.graphics	re wanted playmation info in article apr qiclab scn rain com baer qiclab scn rain com ken baer writes in article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail playmation is available direct from anjon associates for oops forgot the phone number it s ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	please help point in concave polyhedra dear netters i am looking for c source code to test if a d point lies within a concave polyhadra i have read a few articles about this and know that two solutions exist parity counting and angle sumation both ideas are pretty simple but coding is not so i wonder if there exists public domain source code for this another rough solition don t care special cases is ray casting which is reported to be more or less independent of number of faces consisting the polyhedra if a special space indexing is used m tamminen et al ray casting and block model conversion using a spatial index computer aided designs but the prerequirement is that all the facets of polyhedra have their normal pointing outside of polyhedra how this could be done in practice i have a set of trangles consisting the polyhedra how could i ensure their normals pointing outside the polyhedra the paper mentioned above assumed this is already the case i have also read some standard computer graphics textbook about hidden line removal it says if we make the rule that the normal of a facet pointing toward viewer standing far away from the polyhedra again how to make sure any pointers are welcome yaohong jiang queen s university kingston ont jiangy qucdn queensu ca
comp.graphics	triangulized data wanted with texture to be mapped i need triangulized data of some nice looking model with some texture mapping it would be better if the parametric values of each vertex for the surface before triangulized are avaliable along with the euclidean points so that we could use them for texture mapping thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	where is faq where can i find it thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	what is the difference between raytracing and rendering hello i ve raytraced and rendered and the only difference i ve found is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer am i missing something later z
comp.graphics	re tiff complexity anyone who thinks that tiff is too complex hasn t dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml or any one of a number of other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others dealing with the format of tiff is frankly less difficult than dealing with the dct lzw and fax encoding of the image data the majority of the libraries which deal with tiff are dedicated to these other issues rather than with simply decoding the tags and parameters perhaps people are overwhelmed in comparison with some rather simpleminded formats such as gif pcx and bmp but to suggest that tiff is so complex as to be doomed to failure is ludicrous that doesn t mean that gif isn t fine but don t even thing about using it in many instances gif is very nice for use in low end photos applications and for screen grabs and such but it would never do for high volume or high resolution systems fax is nice but it doesn t do color and gif doesn t do b w all that well jpeg is nice for high resolution color but is slow for low end the advantage tiff brings to the table is its ability to handle all these situations and then some naturally it s more complex but i ld rather propose tiff imaging solutions over imaging systems based on having to deal with file formats anyday you may find that tiff is too complicated for your personal tastes but please don t wrail against it s complexity the complexity it contains is required to provide the functionality it does and doesn t come close to the complexity found in most commercially viable file formats if we re in philosophical arguments against complexity let s all go program in scheme and forth and do imaging with run length encoding
comp.graphics	dxf to pcx gif tif or tga does anyone know of a program for the pc that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them to a raster format like pcx gif etc thanks in advance ed ed murashie us mail beckman instruments inc phone diagnostic system group fax s kraemer blvd w internet murashiea mail beckman com brea ca
comp.graphics	i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little thanks elizabeth elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	help d studio ipas hi can anyone please give me some ftp sites to get ipas processes for d studio thanks warren
comp.graphics	computer graphics studies at the technion technion israel institute of technology department of computer science graduate studies in computer graphics applications are invited for graduate students wishing to specialize in computer graphics and related fields active research is being conducted in the fields of image rendering geometric modelling and computer animation state of the art graphics workstations sun silicon graphics and video equipment are available the technion offers full scholarship support tuition and assistantships for suitable candidates for more information contact dr craig gotsman computer science deptartment technion israel institute of technology haifa israel gotsman cs technion ac il
comp.graphics	dwg gcd dd formats reference needed can some kind soul point me to references for the above formats thanks earl
comp.graphics	any autodesk d concepts users out there if you are a user of autodesk d concepts and are willing to answer a small number of short questions then please send me email earl boebert sctc com
comp.graphics	re raytracing colours asecchia cs uct ac za adrian secchia writes when an incident ray i strikes an object at point p the reflected ray r and the transmitted ray t is calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively on r and t will return the colours along the rays r and t as rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol i n the question is how do you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol s to get the correct resulting colour to return along the i ray first of all this is not a snide response if you re confused about this issue you will stumble over a lot of other things as well i suggest that the weakness is your reference material get an introduction to ray tracing by andrew glassner for very good coverage of the raytracing algorithm you could also refer to the nd edition of foley van dam on to the question the simple answer is that you just keep adding up all the contributions and then clamping at the maximum intensity for example if your intensity values range from to then keep adding up and clamp the resultant values to you might have to clamp the lower bound to if you have dark bulbs but that s another issue so you get some illumination equation like this i lambient ldiffuse light n lreflected ltransparent the contribution due to reflection is just summed with the light intensity as is the light due to transparency now a slightly less hand waving illumination equation is this i kala kdld light n krlr ktlt that is each component of the illumination equation is governed by the material constants ka kd kr and kt so the maximum you can get from transparency for a given object for example might be for a purple colored glass object hopefully this answers your question i ll forward my illumination equation sermon to you also steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	re what is the difference between raytracing and rendering zlg uxa cso uiuc edu zhenhai li writes hello i ve raytraced and rendered and the only difference i ve found is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer am i missing something yes there are many methods of rendering raytracing is one of them you didn t say what you mean by rendering so i won t guess methods of rendering include o pencil and graph paper doing the math by hand o wireframe rendering of the d projection o hidden line rendering o scanline rendering using painter s algorithm bsp trees z buffer other o raytracing o radiosity o holographic projection to film o combination of any of the above steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	dna helix looking for a tiff eps of a dna helix e mail any auggestions please
comp.graphics	re i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what in article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need a program that converts this to a regular file if this is a macbinary file you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt if you did if you re using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type binary first if you can open the file with a text editor and find this file must be converted with bin at the top it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex among other programs niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames ia snail durham
comp.graphics	rfd comp multimedia open telematic rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg i have proposed the forming of a consortium task force for the promotion of naplps jpeg fif to openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions of naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation of real time online applications that make use of voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax in addition these dicussion would assist all to better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl v fast and eia tia can best be incorporated and implemented to develop telematic multimedia applications we want to be able to support dos unix mac windows nt os platforms it is our hope that individuals developers corporations universities r d labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor this would be a not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporations have decided to support otg open telematic group so do not delay joining if you are a developer an rfd has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a faq will soon be be composed to start promulgating what is known on the subject if you would like to be added to the maillist send email or mail to the address below this group would publish an electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter as well as a hardcopy version we urge all who wants to see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg g r o w decide to join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined by mr james martin as the marriage of voice video hi res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan if you would like to get involve write to me at img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com p o box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia us cis fidonet bbs zyxel k edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer hello thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one thanks in advance gilles ps we are using a sun sparc running x
comp.graphics	scientific visualization of chemical systems molecules has evolved from an esoteric academic subject into a international industry computer graphics has played a decisive role in this transformation by allowing chemists to build visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects while computer scientists are conversant in the language of their own discipline they are often unfamiliar with the terminology simulation techniques and practical needs of research chemists similarly chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms and technological advances in graphical computing this interdisciplinary course is intended to bridge the gap between computer science and chemistry and to equip chemistry researchers who wish to be more than just casual users of prepackaged graphics software although this is not intended to be a course in computational chemistry or drug design data sets from chemical research problems will be used in lab and students will be encouraged to bring data sets of their own lab exercises and projects will be carried out using data flow programming ibm visualization data explorer software and students will have access to cornell theory center computing resources including video recording equipment audience researchers and students in the chemical and biological sciences interested in integrating state of the art computer graphics into their research computer scientists wishing to gain familiarity with a major application of scientific visualization the class size will be limited to participants on a first come first served basis level graduate advanced undergraduate or credits may be taken without credit as a workshop calculus linear algebra and introductory chemistry required familiarity with unix x windows and c is useful but not required date june credits june or credits time mon fri am to pm and pm to pm cost or credit credits format the course will be held in the theory center training facility where computer workstations will be available daily lectures will be interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will be provided for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing environment students enrolled for one credit will be graded on the basis of their laboratory exercises and short final project those enrolled for a second credit will receive more advanced lectures be given more time for project development and meet daily to share experience and discuss problems encountered content may vary elements of computer graphics polygonal rendering lighting models ray tracing volumetric rendering stereo graphics animation introduction to data flow programming dx interactivity representing the atom size time and energy scales basic classical and quantum mechanics important categories of molecules small molecules biopolymers surfaces and catalysts miscellaneous current applications data formats and conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types of simulation and experiment electronic structure molecular dynamics mechanics electrostatics x ray crystallography nmr quantum dynamics and spectroscopy instructors the course will be taught by two instructors topics related to computer graphics will be handled by dr bruce land project leader of visualization cornell national supercomputing facility chemistry specific aspects of the course will be handled by dr richard e gillilan visualization specialist and research scientist cornell national supercomputing facility to register mail completed form to cornell university school of continuing education and summer sessions b day hall ithaca ny questions richard gillilan richard tc cornell edu important acceptance will be first come first served and based on a target class size of full credit and single or non credit participants deadline may application form scientific visualization of chemical systems chemistry computer science u s social security number if available cornell id number if available name last first middle suffix jr etc address home address where grades will be mailed local phone home phone academic discipline course number check one chemistry computer science credits status undergraduate student smart node consultant graduate student smart node advisor post doctoral faculty other explain corporate commercial research staff other explain name of firm indicate which of the following best describes you optional african american alaskan native asian american caucasian hispanic american native american list special needs e g mobility impaired accommodations blocks of rooms are available at the sheraton reservations must be made no later than may be sure to tell them you are here for the cornell theory center visualization workshop sheraton inn one sheraton drive ithaca fax rates starting at other local motels make your reservation early our workshop coincides with other cornell events econo lodge cayuga mall n triphammer rd ithaca fax rates from ask for the cornell rate dorm rooms have also been reserved participants both credit and non credit participants who are interested in dorm rooms should call below for registration information jeanne miller or donna smith email jeanne tc cornell edu or donna tc cornell edu
comp.graphics	analysis on text readins utils ocr wanted ibm pc from tolsty thu apr to newsserv newcom kiae su newsgroups comp periphs comp graphics digest comp graphics comp binaries ibm pc wanted alt graphics pixutils bit listserv omrscan message id kaj nzfm w nsk uucp free msk su organization nsk ran from andrey v shorin tolsty nsk uucp free msk su date thu apr subject analysis on text reading utils needed ibm pc distribution msk hi does anybody know any reliable utils to read english texts with scanner i want some analysis on quality of recognition because i want to read texts which i get by fax you know quality on faxes is rather bad the scanner i have is b w and dpi but if there exist any good software that needs other specifications that will be ok please send messages to my e mail or on conference server i ll summarize them and consider your recomendations thank you andrey v shorin scientific council on complex problem cybernetics russian academy of sciences e mail tolsty nsk uucp free msk su tel fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters i saw an imaging program some time ago on an amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct me to these algorithms paul denize paul denize internet pdenize waikato ac nz department of computer science university of waikato phone hamilton ext new zealand fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes in the message body you can see in many other places for this listing see the item places to find the resource listing for more information items changed re arranged the subjects in order to fir better in the k article limit i plan on changing headers soon so be careful only the resource listing keys are sure to remain in the subject line computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses plotting packages i m thinking of making this post bi weekly what do you think lines which got changed have the character in front of them added lines are prepended with a removed lines are just removed use diff to locate these changes this text is c copyright of nikolaos c fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled by nikolaos nick c fotis e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact me for updates corrections etc disclaimer i do not guarantee the accuracy of this document use it at your own risk this is mainly a guide for computer graphics software i would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff it s entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john t grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov is the poster of the official comp graphics faq i have included my comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents of the resource listing part places to find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems b commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files d scanners digitized d data background imagery textures datafiles introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing b z buffer depth buffer c others where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot b space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send me updates info places to find the resource listing this file is crossposted to comp graphics comp answers and news answers so if you can t locate it in comp graphics you re advised to search in comp answers or news answers the latter groups usually are archived in your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted to comp graphics times a month and are kept in many places see below many faqs including this one are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing help in the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing is accesible through wais in the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list it s got a digest type line before every numbered item for purposes of indexing another place that monitors the listing is the maasinfo files for more info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place to search for faqs in general is the switch swiss academic and research network system in switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch login as info move to the info service usenet periodic postings directory search in the index file by typing and the word to look for you may then just read the faq in the faqs directory or decide to fetch it by one of the following methods ftp login to nic switch ch as user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for a password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail to rfc archive server nic switch ch x s archive server ou nic o switch prmd switch admd arcom c ch enter help in the bodypart to receive instructions no information is required in the subject header line archie the archie is a service system to locate ftp places for requested files it s appreciated that you will use archie before asking help in the newsgroups archie servers archie au or aussie nz archie funet fi or finland eur archie th darmstadt de or ger cs huji ac il or israel archie kuis kyoto u ac jp or japan archie sogang ac kr or korea archie ncu edu tw or telnet twn archie doc ic ac uk or uk ireland archie sura net or usa md archie unl edu password archie usa ne archie ans net or usa ny archie rutgers edu or usa nj archie nz or new zealand connect to archie server with telnet and type archie as username to get help type help you can get xarchie or archie which are clients that call archie without the burden of a telnet session xarchie is on the x r contrib tape and archie on comp sources misc vol to get information on how to use archie via e mail send mail with subject help to archie account at any of above sites note to janet pss users the united kingdom archie site is accessible on the janet host doc ic ac uk connect to it and specify archie as the host name and archie as the username notes excerpted from the faq article please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled by eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade a great ray tracer for workstations on up also for pc mac amiga pov son and successor to dkb trace written by compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com or dave buck david buck carleton ca art ray tracer with a good range of surface types part of vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac ii amiga unix vms last two with x previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg d text etc etc an ms dos version for use with djgpp dos extender go exists also as a mac port vivid a shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the no source version is available to registered users us direct from the author ray steve hollasch s dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there s a separate real time wireframe viewer written in gl called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart a distributed ray tracer that runs under x there are server binaries which work only on decstations sparcs hp snakes x series and next the clients are distributed as binaries and c source inetray a network version of rayshade needs sun rpc or newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch prt vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell s volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance a ray tracer w radiosity effects by greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix x based though has been ported to the amiga and the pc india an indian radiosity package based on radiance sgi rad an interactive radiosity package that runs on sgi machines with a spaceball it includes a house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl ch rad a simple public domain radiosity package in c the solution can be run stand alone on any unix box but the walk through requires a sgi d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp a tcl command interface to the sipp rendering program tcl sipp is a set of tcl commands used to programmed sipp without having to write and compile c code commands are used to specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options it renders either in ppm format or in utah raster toolkit rle format or to the photo widget in the tk based x applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl an sgi gl like library based on vogle rend a fast polygon renderer for intel s and up version on up it s not photorealistic but rather a real time renderer xsharp dr dobb s journal pc renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision d mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit a csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces x d a wireframe viewer for x dv d wireframe graphics toolkit with c source dv objects other stuff look at major pc archives like wuarchive one such file is dkit zip pv d a shareware front end modeler for povray still in beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem a gl based package from dobkin et al for exploring mathematical structures geomview a gl based package for looking and interactively manipulating d objects from geometry center at minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich is a workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire gl wireframe previewer for steve hollasch s ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used by spd off another file format p d a lispy file format tddd imagine d modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes a nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts to from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort d objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript registered users get a tex pk font converter and a superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib is also known as t dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads a brain a knee electron density maps for rna and others written material on rendering rt news collections of articles on ray tracing rt bib references to articles on ray tracing in refer format rad bib references to articles on radiosity global illumination speer rt bib rick speer s cross referenced rt bib in postscript rt abstracts collection by tom wilson of abstracts of many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers in electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword for the people without internet access there s also an e mail server send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus a great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick x package for display and interactive manipulation of images uses its own format miff and includes some converters xv x based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats on an x screen khoros a huge excellent system for image processing with a visual programming interface and much much more uses x windows fbm another set of image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays on x screen a bit old now xflick plays fli animation under x xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif s including gif a animation extensions dl s and amiga iff animations j l and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint a bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems i ii iii code from the ever so useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines by sean graves kaleido computation and d display of uniform polyhedra mirrored in wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties of polyhedra author dr zvi har el e mail rl gauss technion ac il means site is an official distributor so is most up to date north america please look for things on your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for a roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar z sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version of xsharp with fast texture mapping there s lots more including bibs graphics gems i ii code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall s book illumination and color in computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital g rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd rt news wilson s rt abstracts rt bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems i ii iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital g in pub graphics because there s a trouble with princeton s incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff to weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton ca pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer or pov david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil d objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created to be a d object repository for the net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex ac uk the pilot european image processing archive in a directory ipa synth or something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp b tar z tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com or markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass x window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool s ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar z the latest version of bob icol and raz source a manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob is a real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch s thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror of avalon s d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch d ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof cs rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools in various directories e g sgi alpha shape alvis tar z d alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview z interactive visualization and analysis of d geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub p d p d tar p d lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs complex conversion system a standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best of comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net graphics irit rt news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli xv img lots more pub r untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar z off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu pub img tar z and img tar z some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub x d tar z x d pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and gl related stuff e g opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information on how to get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images a texture library has also begun here lee a butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu texture temp x grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu pub graphics rtabs shar z wilson s rt abstracts vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu or jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend or sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases if you don t have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics to get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings in various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff in various directories automatic mailer is archive server siggraph org send index ftp cs unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk s work on reaction diffusion textures x windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop on volume visualization this site is also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu to get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis this site will be changed to ftp yorku ca in the near future milton u washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly d visualization software demo that package is built for fly throughs from various datasets in near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu x xpecs d files an lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for vr stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy of the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased to exist it contains powerglove code vr papers d images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques dr david s ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine is considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals of course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid ps tex ascii a short survey of methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie c animates a movie on an x display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans du buf s grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access to cd roms with data images on line at a time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu srgp sphigs for more info on srgp sphigs mail s software distribution graphtext cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and a load of other stuff are contained in the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing you could convert these data to pov rayshade etc biome bio ns ca pub art some renoir paintings escher s pictures etc ic ee umanitoba ca specmark sample set of images from the images from the edge cd rom images of atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview a tool that aids in visualization of gis datasets in may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most of the spacelink service data see below e mail server available send mail to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server with subject help or send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access at no parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov or phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa s planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function is support for teachers you can telnet also to this site dial up access v baud bits no parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu or chris o dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land of faqs graphics and pictures directories of particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley s entire thesis with pics wilson s rt abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi dasun epfl ch radiance good for european sites but doesn t carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu se pub sipp sipp tar z sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas y isy liu se irisa fr ipsc vm pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa fr may have disappeared phoenix oulu fi fli raytracker animation files pc vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations to come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including vm pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some rt news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu fi garbo uwasa fi much pc stuff etc pc source contour f fortran program to contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar z nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters to nff autocad to nff autolisp code autocad to scn rtrace s language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn pt vega hut fi graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models it was shut down months ago check under nic funet fi nfotis sun nl nluug nl pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer and converter there s an e mail server also mail to archive unix hensa ac uk with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z maeglin mt luth se graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson s rt abstracts vivid ftp fu berlin de pub unix graphics rayshade inputs aq tar z is rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math fu berlin de maggia ethz ch pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch osgiliath id dth dk pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port of radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil id dth dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pov raytracer mirrored in wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv d pv d ftp uni kl de pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror of the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz ch iamsun unibe ch graphics graphtal a l system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis hq eso org on line access to a huge astronomical database login starcat no passwd decnet stesis it s the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion ac il kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson s ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots of other stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au pub graphics vort tar z vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar z art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography ui stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke s fascia program valerie hall val lillee cs curtin edu au oceania asia ccu auckland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz for users outside nz go to wuarchive wustl edu directory mirrors architec scslwide sony co jp ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp or stevef cs umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie s help don t overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many of these mail servers have a command like path a valid return e mail address to get a hint for sending back to you stuff dec s ftpmail send a one line message to ftpmail decwrl dec com without a subject field and having a line containing the word help you should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow in order to get the files you want note that the reply or answer command in your mailer will not work for this message or any other mail you receive from ftpmail to send requests to ftpmail send an original mail message not a reply complaints should be sent to the ftpmail request uucp gw pa dec com address rather than to postmaster since decwrl s postmaster is not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there s bitftp pucc send a one line help message to this address for more info red red listserv redirector is essentially a mail server the server sites that are available are location earn bitnet internet in turkey trickle trearn trickle ege edu tr in denmark trickle dktc in italy trickle imipoli in belgium trickle banufs trickle ufsia ac be in austria trickle awiwuw in germany trickle ds rus i trickle rusvm rus uni stuttgart de in israel trickle taunivm trickle vm tau ac il in netherlands trickle hearn trickle hearn nic surfnet nl in france trickle frmop trickle frmop cnusc fr in colombia trickle unalcol trickle unalcol unal edu co in taiwan trickle twnmoe trickle twnmoe edu tw you are urged to use the one that is closer to your location send a message to one of these containing the body help and you ll get more instructions lightwave d mail based file server a mail based file server for d objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps is now online for all those with internet mail access the server is the official archive site for the lightwave d mail list and contains many pd and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides on a bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs is operational hours a day days a week at the phone number of it has upgraded its modem to a hayes ultra v bis v bis which has speeds from bps up to bps if you would like to submit objects scenes or images to the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files to the address server bobsbox rent com for information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message to the address file server graphics rent com with the following in the body of the message help dir and a help file describing how to use the server and a complete directory listing will be sent to you via mail now it includes the cyberware head and shouders in ttddd format check it out only if you can t use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server a few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr will give you a quick summary of what inria graphlib contains and how to browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the extended summary as an other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but a guide to these is beyond the scope of this listing and the resources of the author if you can point to me internet or mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send me info studio amiga is a d modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well sf ca us the castle k v bis v v bis mnp in pacifica dang close to san francisco california usa the new user password is tao j oin base the castle g fx anim video d s i g of which i am the sig op lazerus bob lindabury operates a bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call me ray ray tracing related bbs in chicago suburbs or digital pixel sysop mark ng mcng descartes waterloo edu is based at toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type k baud k zyxel v bis v mnp access fee none free system supported dos os amiga mac netmail currently no echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs in long island new york running hours at k v bis with megs on line we also subscribe to mailing lists of which originate from our bbs with more to be added soon these include lightwave imagine real d ray tracing database files include imagine d objects d renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave d objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative is in el cerrito ca running hours a day at k hst v bis with mb online and a user base tga runs two nodes node is for public access and includes a free day trial subscription tga is the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental u s alaska new zealand australia france and the uk tga s file database includes ms dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from a special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs is dedicated to supporting d animators the system is provided free of charge and is not commercialized in anyway users are given full access on the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo s netmail megs online v bis v bis modem platforms of interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh ms dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari st from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs in maryland it supports raytracers such as pov and vivid the bbs runs off a mhz megs hard drive and cd rom now it runs on bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design s graphic connection in portland oregon v v bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds of megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available to first time callers the bbs is a subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested in materials can subscribe to the library in addition to a basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time to download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests to imagine request email sp paramax com send material to imagine email sp paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley in the maintenance of the mailing list please note that the unisys com address is no longer valid lightwave for the amiga it s part of newtek s video toaster send subscription requests to lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material to lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests to listserv karazm math uh edu with a body of subscribe toaster list real d another modeling and animation system for the amiga to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe real d l your full name to listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests to rayshade request cs princeton edu send material to rayshade users cs princeton edu craig kolb alladin d for the amiga send subscription requests to subscribe xamiga linet org and in the body of the message write alladin d username domain radiance greg ward the author sends to registered via e mail users digests of his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address is gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests to rend request sunee waterloo edu send material to rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe dkb l your full name to listserv trearn bitnet send material to dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests to mp render request icase edu send material to mp render icase edu d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems vision d mac based program written by paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz the program can be used to generate models directly in the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only it s shareware and listed on the ftp list brl a solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and x it has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever it is you can get it free via ftp by signing and returning the relevant license found on ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact ms carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen md usa irit a constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for pc and x includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where to find it surfmodel a solid modeling program for pc written in turbo pascal by ken van camp available from simtel pd msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu it s based on non manifold topology ask them for more info i don t know if they give it away xyz xyz is an interactive d editor builder written by dale p stocker to create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz is free and can be found for example in simtel as msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod it s an msdos program check at barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod is c by micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad d zip in simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send us check or money order to the art machine nickolas sterling heights mi usa in addition to the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers d professional and rayshade support rayshade is supported only by the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output in your rayshade scripts the latest demo version is available on fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie at ad s sycom mi org phone icoons amiga it s a spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor in amiga physik unizh ch gfx d icoons lzh it s free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has a look feel which is a cross between journeyman and imagine and it generates objects in ttddd format it is possible to load journeyman objects into icoons so the program can be used to convert jman objects to imagine format author helge e rasmussen her compel dk phone fax it s also on fred fish disk series n nfotis protocad d ver from trius shareware it s at wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu as pcad d zip for pcs it has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw d objects line circle box d draw d objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture go image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files a demo can be found on wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors win demo demo d zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha a spline based modeling program written in university of utah features splines up to trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups of objects and transformations extensible object types applications include nc machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms hp and s x r hp ux sgi d or pi machines x r and gl irix sun sparcstation x r sunos licensing and distribution is handled by egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city ut mcminn cs utah edu educational pricing the charge is per platform you may run the system on as many different workstations of that type as you wish for each platform there is also a licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which is bundled with the system you need to obtain an additional license from the university of utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university of utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing of psl for u s institutions for a usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have an educational institution program the package is used in the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they ll quoting from a letter sent to me nfotis donate fully configured vertigo d graphics software worth over usd per package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any number of silicon graphics personal iris or power series workstations if you use an iris indigo station we will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd if you are interested in participating in this program please send a letter by mail or fax on your institution s letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number of sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will be asked to contribute usd per institution to cover costs of the manual administration and shipping we recommend that vertigo users subscribe to our technical support services for an annual fee you will receive technical assistance on our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution we will waive the administration fee if support is purchased the annual support fee is plus the following cost for additional machines number of machines additional cost per machine there s also a day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia st vancouver bc canada v e y phone fax does anyone know of such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would be a very interesting part nfotis padl basically it s a solid modeling kernel in top of which you build your application s available by license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca ny license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov t agencies internal commercial licenses and re dissemination licenses are available for an information packet write to the above address or send your address to marisa cpa tn cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology it s a solid modelling kernel callable from c heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person to contact regarding acis in academic institutions is scott owens e mail sdo spatial com and their address is spatial technology inc th st bldg a boulder co phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically in my understanding this is a fem pre and post proccessor system it s fairly old today but it still serves some people in mech eng depts now it s superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that s a complete modelling animation and visualization package runs in the usual workstation environments sun dec hp sgi ibm rs and others you can get a demo version days trial period either by sending usd in their address or a blank tape it costs for a full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo ut phone e mail cquel byu edu twixt soon to add stuff about it if i get a reply to my fax voxblast it s a volume renderer marketed by vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running on pcs with fpu at least call vaytek for more info voxelbox a d volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs on a pc or higher with at least an bit video card svga is fine under windows x it costs contact jaguar software inc main st suite b winchester ma jwp world std com john w poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format by eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators in the spd package and many objects floating in various ftp sites there s also a previewer written in hp starbase from e haines also there s one written in vogle so you can use any of the devices vogle can output on check in sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr mu oz au off object file format from dec s randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems to be mothballed in a future version i ll remove the ref to it nfotis available also through their mail server to obtain help about using this service send a message with a subject line containing only the word help and a null message body to object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places to get it see in the relevant place there s an off previewer for sgi d machines called off preview in godzilla cgl rmit oz au there are previewers for xview and sunview also on gondwana tddd it s a library of d objects with translators to from off nff rayshade imagine or vort objects edited copy of the announcement follows from raytracing news v new library of d objects available via ftp by steve worley worley cup portal com i have assembled a set of over d objects in a binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures to airplanes from semi trucks to lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them in order to convert these objects to a human readable format a file with the specification of tddd is included in the directory with the objects there is also a shareware system called ttdddlib officially on hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm to from various object formats imagine ttddd extension of tddd off nff rayshade or vort source included for amiga unix as executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript p d from pittsburgh supercomputing center the p d uses lisp with slight extensions to store three dimensional models a simple lisp interpreter is included with the p d release so there is no need to have access to any vendor s lisp to run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics gl and the drawp d subroutine library for generating p d without ever looking at the underlying lisp the p d software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter s algorithm dore silicon graphics inc gl language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code is available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub p d and nic funet fi directory pub graphics programs p d renderman pixar s renderman is not free call pixar for details solids description formats a eec s esprit project cad i cad interfaces has developed a neutral file format for transfer of cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad to caa computer aided analysis an cam computer aided manufacturing b iges v now tries to define a standard to tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number is ansi y m for documentation you might want to contact nancy flower at ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost is this standard is not available in electronic format c pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes by sending mail to nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index in the body not the subject area of the message the people at rutherford appleton lab are also working on step tools they have an express compiler and an exchange file parser both available in source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have an express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax x e mail mm inf rl ac uk or mcsun uknet rlinf mm or mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot it is one of the best and d plotting packages with online help it s a command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms at least freely distributed it supports many terminals plotters and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices it was posted to comp sources misc in version plus patches you can practically find it everywhere use archie to find a site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace gr xmgr is an xy plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows there is an xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known as ace gr compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and x r xmgr will not compile under x r motif x check at ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z xview version comments suggestions bug reports to paul j turner pturner amb ese ogi edu if mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due to time constraints replies will be few and far between robot release d and limited d based on xview written in c fortran so you need a fortran compiler or the f c translator mainly tested on sun less on decstations check at ftp astro psu edu pub astrod vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi it s being developed at bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call it from the s language also and it works as an x client using the athena widget set or with an ascii terminal it s distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu to get it via e mail send email to statlib temper stat cmu edu and in the body area of the message put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp connect to lib stat cmu edu log in as statlib and use your e mail address as your password then type cd general mget xgobi warning it s about mb sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not pgplot runs on vax vms and supposedly on unix it s a set of fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of or so that includes contour plots and support for various devices including ps contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty cs wisc edu pub ggraph tar z unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb su vladimir j dmitriev for details you can get the program demo or and play version if sent to budapest posta fiok hungary ph fax budapest ph multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd uk or aust advanced d package that has a big list of features contact dr alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam ac uk cambridge university department of pathology tennis court road cambridge cb qp uk athena plotter widget set this version v is based on gregory bond s version v beta added some stuff for scientific graphs i e log axes free scalable axes xy lineplots and some more and re added plotter callbacks from v e g to request the current pointer position or to cut off a rectangle from the plotting area for zooming in version v has a log of bugs fixed and a log of improvements against v beta additionally i did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines on subtic positions line plots in different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend at the right or left hand side of the plot optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters in one application available at export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot is a scientific d plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and it s shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number of data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting in many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting of data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting of one or more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find it on ftp cs tu berlin de pub next science sciplot tar z author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp on hagar ph utexas edu directory pub plplot at present v plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec ms dos os next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos and os drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot on the next supermongo d plotting package at cmu filename re tmp sm tar z probably under the ftp cmu edu or andrew cmu edu machines gle gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists it runs on a variety of platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek pc graphics cards vt s hp plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers it provides latex quality fonts as well as full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features of graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation of columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations to data available via anon ftp at these places pc gle simtel wuarchive wustl edu and other mirrors msdos graphics gle unix gle zephyr grace cri nz pub gle unix vms gle zephyr grace cri nz pub gle vms mailing list glelist send a message to listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with a message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display pc and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites can do simple display enhancing smoothing and so on works with the fits and vicar pds data formats of nasa can read tiff images if you know their dimensions pc and macs labview labview is used as a framework for image processing tools it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument vi a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument to be used as a part of any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug in digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology the tools range from low level debugging software to high level block diagram development software there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb dsp board and labview use of the nb dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop mpw c that execute on the nb dsp board there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready to use vis optimized for the nb dsp use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler an assembler and a linker for low level programming of the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb dsp board this is the easiest route for the development of custom code ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek france is a family of image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept vi include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation of features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with a minimum resolution of by a pixel depth of or bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can be imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction of skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center of gravity moment of inertia orientation length of relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved in ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom modules a d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections of images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the real imaginary components or the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program s quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center of mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road c santa rosa ca iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek franceus ultimage concept vi using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations to be performed the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and a movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign il fax nih image available at alw nih gov or preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image it has painting and image manipulation tools a macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using a frame grabber card it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie it can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such as gaussian it can import raw data in tab delimited ascii or as or byte quantities it also does histograms and even d plots it is limited to bits pixel though the bits map into a color lookup table it runs on any mac that has a color screen and a fpu or get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke dr marlboro ma photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks ca pixeltools and tcl image complete family of pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis of high resolution monochromatic and color images includes c source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis it provides a complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction of quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures it is easily extensible through script or indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the i view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such as pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville tn satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts of image enhancing on it you ll need at least a mac ii with co processor a color display and a large harddisk the program doesn t run under system x ate v in the documentation the contact address is given as liz smith jet propulsion laboratory ms oak grove dr pasadena ca visualization workbench an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific d and d plotting paragon imagine lincoln st lowell ma adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images or levels of grey scale once an image has been imported it can be rre toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh based rpaints applications these include an eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from to allowing you to create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image blur edges or locate edges image scaling is also supported for storage savings the images can be compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such as jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex ct tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road po box mountain view ca colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the mb range the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don t know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus nj dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure a variety of global or feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems w olive ave sunnyvale ca digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by painting it a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections a brush lets the operator paint with a selected portion of the image note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey scale images only it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd suite j san diego ca dimple it is compatible with system and system requires mac lc or ii series with colours with a recommended min of mb of ram it has the capability of reading erdas files functions include image enhancement d and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there is also a means image operation language or iol by which you can write your own transformations there is no image rectification however dimple is compatable with mapii the latest version is and it is in the beta stage of testing dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose dimple runs on a colour macintosh it is a product still in its development phase i e it doesn t have all the inbuilt features of other packages but is coming along nicely it has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing an image defining convolution filters etc dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc it is unprotected software process software solutions po box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can be saved as either tiff pict epsf or text however epsf files can t be imported microfrontier hickman road des moines ia image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes or enhancing and measuring distances in radiographs image analyst provides users with an array of field proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position or movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera or a disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices there are types of files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set up in regions of interest roi represented by movable sizable boxes atop the image inside a roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area of a shape the thickness of a wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object it also supports histograms and a color look up table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica ma iplab signal analytics corp maple ave e vienna va fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color or pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map ii among the mac gis systems map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu it has pd source for image v and ready to run code for a mac under image v windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry s ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code is included erdas erdas will do all of the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc i was using it on my thesis then changed the topic a bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta ga fax rsvga i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd in british columbia its for ibm pc s or clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful though i have had only limited experience with erdas i have used rsvga with of landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine it s a bit package i suppose for pcs called imagine or image the program does a modest amount of image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot an x or y cut across the image it can also display a number of images simultaneously the company is compuscope in santa barbara ca pc vista it was announced in the august edition of pasp it is known to be available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his s mail address is michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley ca the latest version of pc vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images if you do wish to use the source code you will need microsoft c version or later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications to receive the documentation and nine double density k floppies or three quad density inch floppies m with everything on them just send a request for pc vista together with your name and a us mail address to office of technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley ca include a check traveller s checks are fine or purchase order for in u s dollars if your address is inside the continental u s or otherwise made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs software tools it s a set of software tools put out by canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap at about i heard it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber software mirage it s image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton it will run on a pc among other platforms it is a forth based system i e a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more pc related stuff in it maxen a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company is named digital signal processing software or something like that and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine either jan or feb an article on ccd s vs film jandel scientific java another software package java is put out by jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera ca microbrian runs on an ms dos platform and uses a bit graphics card vista or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards its a full blown remote sensed data processing system it is menu driven character based screen but is does not use a windowed user interface its is hardware protected with a dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system it was developed by csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and is marketed supported by mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but be prepared to set aside a k for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need to it has installed sites worldwide it is widely used at anu microimage the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra mar s microimage on pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view ca fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed in the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak az it is free you can ftp it from tucana noao edu and complement it with stsdas from stsci edu email to iraf noao edu for more details apparently this is one of the de facto standards in the astronomical image community they issue a newsletter also they seem to support very well their users works with vms also last i heard and practically has its own shell on top of the vms unix shells it s suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet of documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built by nrao national radio astronomy observatory hq in charlottesville va sites in nm az wv software distributed by track exabyte dat or non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp to baboon cv nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and is primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla a synthesis instrument it consists of almost programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution e g via maximum entropy there is an x based image tool xas and a tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model display unit and can do image arithmetic etc the code is mostly fortran with some system c language modules and is available for suns ibm rs dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for hp xx solaris and maybe sgi there is currently a project aips underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting using c and an object oriented approach whereas aips is proprietary code licensed for free to non profit institutions owner by nrao and the nsf aips will be in the public domain at some level as it is an international effort with contributions from the us canada england the netherlands india and australia to name a few laboimage version is out for x it s written in c and currently runs on sun xxx sun xxx os and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp it was used on the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics it is distributed free of charge source code available via anonymous ftp at ftp ads com in pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center u geneva rue du lac ch geneva switzerland phone fax e mail pun cui unige ch or pun cgeuge bitnet figaro it was originally made for vms and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia ks aaoepp aao gov au and for unix from sam southard at caltech sns deimos caltech edu it s about mbytes on a sun khoros moved to the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing is available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email to vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running on unix workstations disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times disimp is available in both runtime and programmer s environments using the programmers environment utilities can be developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed by an icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image manipulations of look up tables colour stretches changes to histograms zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image graphic and textual types images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays of grids text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment including the amount of help required disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software we use global imaging software to process avhrr data from the dish to the final display select a chunk of five band data from a pass automatic navigation calibrate it to albedo and temp convert that to byte register it to predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree it has no classification routines to speak of but it isn t that difficult to write your own with their programmer s module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for a number of years sold to weather service and navy runs on hp with hp ux supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory s image processing system michael landy co wrote and sell a general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc it is called hips and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images it has been growing since we first wrote it both by additions from us as well as a huge user contributed library feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research system development and teaching it handles sequences of images movies in precisely the same manner as single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed as a result almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips on their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix filters it comes complete with source code on line manual pages and on line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available it runs under the unix operating system it is modular and flexible provides automatic documentation of its actions and is almost entirely independent of special equipment hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm at etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun i consoles we also supply user contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti ip lexidata macintosh ii x windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame stores and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because of hips is machine independent availability hips has proven itself a highly flexible system both as an interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks it is both easy to use and quickly adapted and extended to new uses hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format either reel to reel or sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries a library of convolu tion masks and on line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software p o box prince street station new york ny voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don t confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance on dos computers using svga cards in color modes up to x mira contains a very handsome functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats of a number of ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images in byte short integer and byte real pixel format in or dimensions the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels or the same as that of the input image mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format over functions are hand coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations windows for d image and d image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image s all operated by the mouse a wide selection of grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes is provided and other palettes can be generated supported functions include such niceties as the following o image image interpolation o image constant o unary operations abs value polynomial of pixel value chs x log byteswap clip values at upper lower limits short real or real short o combine images by mean median mode or sum of pixel values with or without autoscaling to mean median or mode of an image section o convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle o ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize to region target mean median or modal value o create subimage mosaic m x n d or d images to get larger image collapse d image into d image o plot d section or collapsed section of d image plot histogram of region of an image o review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for a set of images o luminance photometry elliptical or circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set of upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes o interactive with d image contrast brightness x y or diagonal plot of pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan to x y location or image center zoom to times change cursor to rectangle crosshair full image crosshair or off and adjust cursor size on image select linear log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization o interactive or specified image offset computation and re sampling for registration o interactive with d image zoom in x y or both in steps of or times current re center plot or enlarge a framed area plot buffers can be cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert to unit point weights or original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars to file or printer change to user specified coordinate system o tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout to hp pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc o documentation is over pages in custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson az phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models as well as other cartographic data huge is available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also on ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many of these files are also available on cd rom selled by usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price is about call to or visit in offices in menlo park in reston virginia usa maps the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd rom tso standard format that is derived from usgs map data call for more info or they have a bbs at from dr dobbs march the u s defense mapping agency in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada the u k and australia have released the digital chart of the world dcw this chart consists of over gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names it is iso compatible and only available from u s geological survey p o box denver federal center denver co digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa on k a e canada director general of military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex tw ah united kingdom director of survey australian army department of defense campbell park offices cp campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke ccu aukuni ac nz paul d bourke many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price is about their address is vrl ganador court san luis obispo ca telephone or fax scenery animator also for the amiga is of the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics p o box raklin ca phone don t forget to ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported to the pcs cia world map ii note this database is quite out of date and not topologically structured if you need a standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart of the world this m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency s oncs and will be available together with searching and viewing software on a number of cd roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists of coastlines rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes also on hanauma stanford edu is a x array of elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude a program for decoding the database mfil can be found on the machine pi arc umn edu there s another program which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it was posted in comp sources unix to be more exact you ll have to compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types of terrain data ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions to information about soil types vegetation etc this data is not free they charge from to or more depending on the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm pc floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive is mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email to ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and ct scans these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc chapel hill softlab cs unc edu the data sets volume i and ii are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies such as nasa publish cd roms with many altimetry data from various space missions eg viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa i would suggest to call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself is available online internet users can telnet to nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log in as nodis no password you can also dial in at or baud bits no parity one stop at the enter number prompt enter md and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter a few more carriage returns to get the username and log in as nodis no password nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site but no comprehensive list of what s there is available at present earth sciences data there s a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing is called earth sciences resources on internet and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn org in the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive the index is about k by itself there s also an e mail server for the people without internet access send a letter to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server in the subject of your letter or in the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle ss capitalization is important only text files are handled by the email server at present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos in gif and jpeg format it was shut down nfotis anyone has a copy of this archive others daily values of river discharge streamflow and daily weather data is available from earthinfo central ave boulder co these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics in gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu is the space and planetary image facility located on the university of new mexico campus ftp server it provides anonymous ftp access to cd roms with data images a disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info is available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder co eosat at least in the us now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp to ftp ncsa uiuc edu in unix polyview alpha shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes a generalization of the convex hull from d point sets the grips ii gov raster image processing software cd rom is available from cd rom inc at for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files is available on the grips ii cd rom the u s army engineer topographic labs juan perez code is also available via ftp adrg zip archive in spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux m cournoyer l the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what i understand these data are from a laser range finder and you can a copy for research purposes d scanners digitized d data a cyberware labs monterey ca manufactures a d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of or a complete human body they run a service bureau also so they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris ct suite d monterey ca phone fax b polhemus makes a d input device actually a couple of models that senses position d and orientation d based on electromagnetic field interference this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove this hardware is also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes a similar d input device there is a company applied sciences that makes a d input device position only based on speed of sound triangulation c a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint s free page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah ph fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock of birds big bird d trackers p o box burlington vt phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer d trackers p o box hercules dr colchester vt tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic d mouse kaiser dr freemont ca tel w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby b c canada v b w tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball d stationary input device suffolk street lowell ma tel fax tel in mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh p o box n mit branch post office cambridge ma tel email d applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane th floor foster city ca tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse d input device huntington rd suite a south pasadena ca background imagery textures datafiles first check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above bit scanning get a good bit scanner like epson s suggested is an scsi port for speed eric haines had a suggestion in rt news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don t have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells cd roms with various imagery also a wide variety of stock art is available stock art from big name stock art houses such as comstock uniphoto and metro image base is available in italy there s a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work their address is edition belvedere co ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries a mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles a set of x bit textures initial shipments in bit iff for amigas soon in bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp is volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park fl phone fax b essence is a library of sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine imagine and even turbo silver written by steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing el camino real suite menlo park ca usa what about texture city introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics no then read some of the books that the faq contains for ray tracing i would suggest an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn note that i have not read the book but i feel that you can t be wrong using his book an errata list was posted in comp graphics by eric haines erich eye com there s a more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill an introduction to ray tracing in theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad ed r a e earnshaw nato as vol f pp printed by springer verlag it contains code for a small but fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer depth buffer a good reference is procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and c others more info is needed nfotis where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot displays on display column of ieee cg a jan has the whole story about origin of the martin newell s teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot ieee cg a sep in jim blinn s column jim blinn s corner describes an another way to model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects so you re advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself the off data is triangles at a specific resolution around x x triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution b space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built a list of space shuttle datafiles here s a summary from his sci space list model a modified version of the newsgroup model model vertices useful i e referred to in the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall s marshall sequent cc hull ac uk has a copy he said there is no proprietary information associated with it model the newsgroup model in off format you can find it in gondwana ecr mu oz au file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model is stored in several files each defining portions of the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has a copy he did not mention any restriction on the model s distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations x offset y offset z offset from then on the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon l h jsc nasa gov seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters we have been using this model at star labs stanford university for some years now contact me tolis nova stanford edu or my supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu if you want a copy image annotation software a touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good it reads in rasterfiles but even if your image isn t normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a rasterfile b idraw part of stanford s interviews distribution can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool i m not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw s binary from interviews stanford edu c tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x bitmap xbm and x pixmap xpm formats if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm tgif s sources are available in the pub directory on cs ucla edu version of tgif at patchlevel plus patch and patch d use the editimage facility of khoros see below this is just one utility in the overall system you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package e you might be able to get by with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image f ice requires sun hardware running openwindows it s a postscript based graphical editor and it s available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo soest hawaii edu requires sun c and two other locally developed packages the lxt library an xlib based toolkit and a small c class library all files pub ice tar z pub lxt tar z and pub ldgoc tar z are available in compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains a readme that gives installation instructions as well as an extensive man page ice a statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun z for sparc systems is also available for ftp all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and it s an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing g use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats imagemagick is available as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z or at your nearest x archive scientific visualization stuff x data slice xds bundled with the x distribution from mit in the contrib directory available at ftp ncsa uiuc edu either as a source or binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code in the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building e springfield ave champaign il cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for d image and d scene analysis and visualization the code is actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer d volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform d data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec hp ibm contact spyglass inc p o box champaign il khoros patch available via anonymous ftp at pprg eece unm edu cd to pub khoros to see what is available it is huge mb but good needs unix and x r freely copied not pd complete with sources and docs very extensive and at its heart is visual programming khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university of new mexico albuquerque nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates on d and d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such as gray scale color raster d wire frame d surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look up editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton e mail compuserve com iris explorer it s an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any or a minimal amount of traditonal code also existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines but will become available on other platforms in time bundled with every new sgi machine as far as i know see comp graphics explorer or comp sys sgi for discussion of the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc ed ac uk swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror of the uk site ape back in the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with a site license for a single user at a time no limit on the number of machines in a cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name of the package has become ape iii tm khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy as are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland hp ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available on all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham ma telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray hp ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc or cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit in a nutshell it s a package of the same genre as avs explorer etc it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system imho major elements are a visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point filter io transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers an object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad like workspace by adding their own operators c functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs on sun hp xx sgi and supports datacube mv hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real time for a free wit demo disk call fax or e mail poon ee ubc ca us stating your complete name address voice fax e mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one yr free upgrades days technical support us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby b c canada v g m tel fax terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis d a system for visually exploring the output of d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx tg or g graphics sgi crimson or indigo r elan graphics suggested irix x ibm rs with gl graphics aix version or later stardent gs and gs with truecolor display in any case or more mb of ram are suggested you can get it freely thanks to nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu or ftp then ftp cd pub vis d ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also on wuarchive wustl edu in the graphics graphics packages directory read section of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis d contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh i s mhz working on announced sgi hp sun contact your local ibm rep for a trial package ask your rep to contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm rs hp dec availability available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara ca fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat b gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan f shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku ku tokyo japan fax plot d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information in general these codes are for us citizens only xgraph on the contrib tape of x r its specialty is display of up to data sets d ncar national center for atmospheric research one of the original graphics packages runs on sun rs sgi vax cray y mp decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p o box boulder co scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl an environment for scientific computing and visualization based on an array oriented language idl includes d and d graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif or ms windows environments dec vms and ultrix hp ibm rs sgi sun microsoft windows mac version in progress cost to educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc th street suite boulder co phone fax e mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call or e mail for details idl sips a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips this was developed at the university of colorado boulder by some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it it s a few thousand dollars american i expect for idl and the other should be free those are the general purpose packages i ve heard of besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery i m not sure how general purpose it is you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask i have another piece of software pcw that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute an image using selected components i ve used it on megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need an external dsp card it will work without it but large images take quite a while times as long to process that s a freebie if you want it my favorite is idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl is in my opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language is very strong and easy very pascal like it handles the number crunching very well also personally i like doing the number crunching with idl on the vax or mathematica igor or even excel on the mac if it s not too hairy then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn t handle and the speed and ease of use compared to iraf was incredible by the way it s mostly astronomical image processing which i ve been doing this means image enhancement cleaning up bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse then doing a curve fit to that line which i might do like in kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for pv wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado boulder from what i can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm hp sun x terminals availability currently available on all of the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light p o box fair lawn nj steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian is primarily intended to do d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices a user manual on line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi d machines and ibm rs with the gl card z buffer where to find it ftp scri fsu edu pub scian a mirror is monu cc monash edu au pub scian scry from the readme scry is a distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks image viewing on workstations recording on video equipment and storage on disk the system can be distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data complex d data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix like c run time environments and bsd sockets the source is available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar z contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston or david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group ms b lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley ca svlib fvs svlib is an x windows widget set based on the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas it is designed to address the reusability of d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf motif user interface widget set it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded in ncsa hdf format iti gov sg pub svlib scientific visualization pu fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost us for academic and us for non academic institutions for each of the above items you re getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic of singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz a disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent d and d data sets in the graphics and visualization lab gvl we are using these tools along side standard packages such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit to render d volumes and create digital movies a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting of bob raz and icol is now available via ftp the most interesting program is probably bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory to be played icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included to acquire gvlware anonymous ftp to machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z to use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl zcat gvl tar z tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi gl rendering renders cubed data set in to seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering in perspective only maximum value rendering on personal iris data must be a brick of bytes on a regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition then streams to screen requires an empty disk partition to be set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick of bytes icol interpolated color raz just a name please send any comments to gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo c with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization it does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection to most medical ct mri etc scanners it is client server based and provides an object oriented interface it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available it is robust efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications cost k for oem developer k for educational developer and run times starting at and going down based on quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada l v s e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based on a list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics md for short flex it is a public domain package written by michael pique at the scripps research institute la jolla ca flex is stored as a compressed tar ed archive about mb at perutz scripps edu in pub flex it displays molecular models and md trajectories macmolecule for macintosh i searched with archie and the most promising place is sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art qt for a demo md display runs on sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton u washington edu xtalview it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more it uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu i am writing my own visualization code right now i look at md output a specific format easy to alter for the subroutine on pc s my program has hooks into gks if your friend has access to phigs for x pex and fortran bindings i would be happy to share my evolving code free of charge right now it can display supercells of up to atoms easy to change and up to time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining nn radii it works acceptably fast on a mhz icsg caesar cs montana edu i did a project on molecular visualization for my master s thesis using unix x motif which generates a simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf is part of motecc look on malena crs it in pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc in plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc in troff format motecc form troff motecc order form in troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement in troff format motecc info ps information about motecc in postscript format motecc form ps motecc order form in postscript format motecc license ps motecc license agreement in postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca it i m working on molecular dynamic too a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics we are working to improve it but it doesn t work under x we are using the graphi lib of the silicon gr because they are much faster then x when we ll end it we ll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp will be free software xball v written by david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol an x window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data data from several common file formats can be read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab ii gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci s xyz format which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats xmol is available at ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight ii from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published in j molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program it works on silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi or laaksone csc fi multi ns niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool it runs under sunview and requires a fortran compiler and sun s cgi libraries mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation of molecules and atoms currently up to atoms may be input available via anonymous ftp at rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites if that s too far i would also suggest looking at least in sgi s applications directory it contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system of the us army construction engineering research lab cerl it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package although it is reported to have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions i use grass because it s public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free grass runs in unix and is written in c the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget grass is not very user friendly compared to macintosh software a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice at vexcel corp in boulder co is a primary user of grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color on suns and stardents it was a really effective interface vexcel corp currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them at or email care of greg vexcel com host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass is public domain and can run on a high end pc under unix it is raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must be done in the raster environment i have used grass v on a sun workstation and found it easy to use it is best of course for data that are well represented in raster grid cell form availability cerl s office of grass integration ogi maintains an ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will be the new canonical source for grass software as well as bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving of files a feature attraction of the server is john parks grass tutorial because the manual is still in beta test stage john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments corrections the ogi is not currently maintaining this document so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands to grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications send subscribe commands to grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign il the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list if you have questions problems or comments send e mail to lists owner amber cecer army mil and a human will respond microstation imager intergraph based in huntsville alabama sells a wide range of gis software hardware microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine nd rd th and th order models as well as a projective model warp an image to a vector map or to another image rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages up to images at a time user can extract single bands from a band image or create color images by combining various individual bands etc the package is designed for a remote sensing application it can handle very large images and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations a unix machine similar to a sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment pci a company called pci inc out of richmond hill ontario canada makes an array of software utilities for processing manipulation and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and a couple of others whose titles i forget the software is available in versions for ms dos unix workstations among them hp sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms by now i use the vms version the pci software consists of several classes groups packages of utilities grouped by function but all operating on a common pci database disk file the tape i o package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into or write those formats out from the pci database file this is the only package i use or know much about other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci supported third party color displays output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer e g an epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might be more spe cifically interested in the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations e g multiply channel by add channel and store as channel and god only knows what all else there s a lot i don t have and don t use these so can t say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility is controlled by from one to eight parameters read from a common parameter file which must be in vms anyway in your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm pc basic but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common complicated lengthy or difficult series of utility executions in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure there s also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write to the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software is designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such a level of operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle r s images you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well for instance the tape i o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls raw data from tape in a number of different interleave orders this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry s ct t format would probably i haven t tried handle targa and so on above all however you have to know what you re doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over it s worth noting that the pci database file is designed to contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner of other information i observe that a remote sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc of the original satellite pass all of this can go into the pci database i believe that on workstations the built in display is used on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems to come to mind one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci database file to a peritek vct q q bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could be overkill in your case it seems designed for the very high end applications users i e those for whom a mac pc largely doesn t suffice although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time it s probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada a country which does a lot of its land resource management via remote sensing i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these areas spam spectral analysis manager back in jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got a fair amount of use at the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across by lines by bands a modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none of these things rectification classification pc and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses x or sunview to display the aviris version may require vicar an executive based on tae and may also require a frame buffer i can refer you to people if you re interested pcw requires x for display map ii among the mac gis systems map ii is distributed by john wiley clrview clrview is a dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can be obtained from explorer dgp utoronto ca in the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto ca end of resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	wanted references on parallel algorithms element analysis radiosity distributed processing hi i m looking for references to parallel algorithms on octrees adaptive subdivision adaptive meshing finite element meshing analysis radiosity any help will be greatly appreciated e mail replies to dave small dts cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	need help z buffering lines areas together i m asking for help on a sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision in z buffering that i ve encountered in different pex implementations i can t find any discussion of this problem in any resources i can lay hands on e g the comp windows x pex faq gaskins s pexlib programming manual vendors documentation i m posting this article by itself on comp graphics and virtually the same article with a test program demonstrating the problem on comp windows x pex the problem is hard to describe without pictures hence this article is longish if you can run pexlib x programs and are interested i encourage you to build and run the test program in comp windows x pex to see the effect yourself and play with my approach to dealing with it it depends on the utility code from the above gaskins book instructions for fetching it via anonymous ftp are given the problem to be solved is to eliminate or minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use of z buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated z values along a line will differ slightly due to roundoff error from the interpolated z values across an area even when the endpoints of the line are coincident with vertices of the area because of this it s a tossup whether the z buffer will allow the line pixels or the area pixels to be displayed visually the result tends to be a dashed line effect even though the line is supposed to be solid using the pexlib api my approach to a solution is to use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms in two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures or immediate mode output must be organized so that one view table index is always in effect for areas and the other is always in effect for lines the result is a slight shift in npc z coordinates for the lines so as to attempt to bias the tossup situations in favor of the lines this shift is effected by moving the front and back clipping planes used in the pexlib view table entry for lines just a hair backwards i e smaller vrc z coordinates compared to their positions in the view table entry used for areas this means that when a point is transformed to npc its z value will be slightly bigger if it comes from a line than if it comes from an area thus accomplishing the desired bias i would expect the z roundoff errors which cause the problem to amount to a few units at most out of the entire dynamic range of the z buffer typically from to if not i e or bit z buffers therefore it seems that a tiny fraction of the range of z in vrc between the front and back clip planes ought to suffice to reliably fix the stitching but in fact experience shows that the shift has to be as much as to of the range empirically it s worst when the npc z component of the slope of the surface is high i e when it appears more or less edge on to the viewer it s as if only or bits of the z buffer have any dependable meaning this amount is so great that one problem is replaced by another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed to lie behind i ve observed the problem on both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers to approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem on an mit pexlib x implementation this version is known to compile and run on an hp ux system with pex open questions why does this happen am i configuring the pex view table wrongly is there a systematic difference in z interpolation for lines as opposed to areas e g pixel centers versus corners which could be corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding z precision in their interpolators something else what to do about it can i fix my use of the view table to allow better precision in z buffered hlhsr is there another approach i can take to remove the stitching artifacts am i just out of luck any help would be immensely appreciated dave gorgen internet gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com applicon inc gorgen aaaca sinet slb com ann arbor michigan usa uucp uunet sharkey applga gorgen
comp.graphics	raytriacing and animation now i have a couple raytracing questions just so you know i m using povray both ms dos and unix and i m generating targa files of varying size ok so i can view these wonderful pictures on my screen what s the best way to get them on to paper would it be possible to take it to kinko s and have them make an actual picture on paper from it i was thinking about making a small animation bit with different raytraced frames is this a bad idea any tricks to it how would i get a sequence of targa files made into an animation that i could put on a videotape is there a cheap way
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format could somebody please email me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are or where i can get such info thanx rtaraz wpi wpi edu
comp.graphics	archiving gif what s the best way to archive gif s i zip them and they only shrink i have most compression programs except stacker which i heard was good for gif s thanx brando ps please e mail me i don t get down this far on the news usually
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong edited i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files you might have a specific program that needs them ok but i tend to convert straight to jpeg format thus a meg bit targa file becomes a k or less bit jpeg the latest versions of xv and xloadimage both handle jpeg files and the best way to convert to jpeg is with the c djpeg suit even at quality you can t see the difference the jpeg is way smaller than anything else even an bit gif later ish craig i didn t do it nobody saw me do it you can t prove anything craig humphrey stargate actrix gen nz ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities i haven t actually used one or seen one so take the specs with a grain of salt i d like to see an independent review of one against say an sgi indigo extreme or something basically the kenai workstations are dec alpha axp based workstations that run osf dec s and will likely run windows nt in the future they are binary compatible with digital s osf alpha axp implementation denali is their graphics subsystem which is upgradable in the field by simply adding transformation engines the two main kenai machines are the imaging and d graphics workstation and the imaging and d graphics workstation cpu dec alpha axp mhz dec alpha axp mhz on chip cache k k k k onboard cache k k word size bit bit memory initial mb mb memory future mb gb specmark specint specfp graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal storage internal fixed internal removable max capacity gb gb io both have turbochannel mb sec scsi ethernet and fddi application programming interfaces both have libraries for xlib motif mit pexlib dec pexlib dec phigs and gl okay now the real stuff the kenai stations work with a graphics architecture known as denali the denali comes in three models the e p and v they use a decchip superscalar risc processor at mhz their capabilities are as follows e p v d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d triangles k k k d triangles k k k pixel flat shaded connected pixel gouraud shaded connected pixel pixel wide anti aliased connected pixel gouraud shaded z buffered strip pixel texture mapped persp point sampled image processing cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s contrast stretching mp s mp s mp s bilinear zoom mp s mp s mp s trilinear interp mvoxels s mvoxels s lookup table bit to trilinear interpolation bit voxels configurations frame buffer modules transform engine mod as you can see these are pretty powerful workstations and the best part is the pricing i would recommend that you call kubota for more information their number is i m sure they ll send you an information you may want oh some prices low end kenai e series w tem and fbm dollars u s kenai e series w tem and fbm dollars u s high end kenai v series w tem and fbm dollars u s kenai v series w tem and fbm dollars u s if someone could post a relative comparision with an indigo extreme or something i would appreciate it hope this helps someone out there brian ps i am not affiliated with kubota in any way hell i thought they made tractors or something
comp.graphics	autocad graphics converter could anybody tell me if exists any program to convert autocad graphics to another format gif tiff bmp pcx and where to get it thanks in advance j c cuesta cuesta tidsa madrid spain
comp.graphics	looking for code to brake image into sub bands hi all i am working on a project in which i need to brake an image into sub bands and then work with them since i have never done anything like this don t even understand the concept of sub bands i was wondering if there is some software out there that would allow me to do this any hints thanks scott violet xepo csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap peter gort trl oz au peter k campbell writes ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts i ve tried compiling it on several sparcstations with gcc after fixing up a few bugs missing constant definitions plus a couple of other things i got it to compile link but after starting client server i just get a black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes i get a broken pipe sometimes it just sits there doing nothing although i occassionally get the cursor to become a cross hair in dog fight but that s it i ve sent word to the author plus what i did to fix it last week but no reply as yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au i ve discovered a bug in the libraries parser parser c loadcolour function where it was generating a segmentation fault it appears the colourlist is geting corrupted somehow i had it return random colours instead and everything worked great except for a few colour problems so i know its the only thing wrong the colour table somehow gets a couple of nulls placed in it so when the name of the colours are compared it crashes i haven t found the problem yet maybe someone else can adrian turner university college of northern victoria turner ironbark ucnv edu au
comp.graphics	looking for graig toontown i noticed you post in comp graphics and know a person with your name i was wondering if you used to live in paxton mass if so i have a friend that would like to say hi sorry for the inconvience if this isn t who i think it is sr
comp.graphics	re gif to targa in article apr fuw edu pl muchor fuw edu pl krzysztof muchorowski writes hello subject says it all i need a gif to targa converter so that my dta could make a fli of them krzysztof dta will make a fli from gifs as well as targas you don t need a converter also get the latest version of dta from wuarchive wustl edu in pub msdos uploads
comp.graphics	re acm siggraph registration problem zyda cs nps navy mil michael zyda notes a word of warning for those of you registering for siggraph i just received my registration form back in the mail with the envelope marked return to sender moved left no address closed po box the address i used to register for siggraph is the one printed on the registration form acm siggraph po box chicago il i printed the envelope in my best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town or moved i ended up faxing my registration to i hope that number is real michael zyda i had the same problem and called the people who handle the box the problem happened some time ago and was caught almost instantly all registrations going to that address are now fixed see what trouble you get into when you don t procrastinate mike and no siggraph has not skipped town we re preparing the best siggraph conference yet steve cunningham
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities hi i would like to know if there is any software pd or not who could produce x output of hpgl file on rs and same kind of software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet thank you gaetan lord voice analyste fax ecole polytechnique de montreal p o box station a montreal quebec canada there s no future in time travel j t c
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i ve had pretty good success autotracing line art with adobe streamline the key to controlling excessive points etc is to take some time and do some test conversions using various tolerance settings jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	re cross sobel roberts filters in article apr waikato ac nz pdenize waikato ac nz writes i saw an imaging program some time ago on an amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct me to these algorithms ok never heard of cross filters but roberts prewitt and sobel filters are standard spatial masks for edge detection highpass filtering does a good job of detecting edges too a good reference for all sorts of general digital image processing is the book digital image processing by rafael c gonzalez and richard e woods addison wesley publishing co isbn i ve used this source to do the above filters and many other things as a grad project not too dificult to do the worst part is loading in the images from tiff gif iff ilbm whatever wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
comp.graphics	source code help on ip packages please greetings this is a general call for information regarding image processing i am looking for any material related to the field and am also trying to get my hands on some easy to use packages related to the field in particular source code for general use packages i already have several texts on the subject but would appreciate more input from people more knowledgable in the field than myself i m not mathematically literate ie i don t have a degree in mathematics so any material that is suggested i would prefer that it was not mathematically intensive the best book i have found on the subject at the moment is practical digital image processing by rhys lewis isbn published by ellis horwood c likewise i am trying to get a fair sample of programs that demonstrate image processing techniques so far i have xv and khoros for unix dcview for the ibm pc and various related smatterings of c code to help describe topics like contrasting dithering image enhancement via convolution etc if anyone could kindly supply me with some public domain software pertinent to this area or better still if they could tell me where i am most likely to find it on the aarnet internet if i can i would prefer source code in c or turbo pascal that includes some image processing code algorithms that i can readily alter manipulate for the purposes of demonstration it would be most helpful all the above information will contribute to my post graduate studies and will be liberally used in my paper and seminar on the subject thanks in advance vance ashlin diploma advanced computing thinking is dangerous subversive mindnumbing and leads you astray ashlin ironbark ucnv edu au i redgum ucnv edu au
comp.graphics	re quicktime performance was re rumours about do in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes path dime ymir cs umass edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz ldo from ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university newsgroups comp multimedia comp graphics date apr gmt references mar aragorn unibe ch apr rchland ibm com organization university of waikato hamilton new zealand lines xref dime comp multimedia comp graphics ok with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects of scaling and so on i thought i d do some more tests first of all i felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie i had been using only had frames in it it was a version of the very first movie i created with the compact video compressor i decided something a little longer would give closer to real world results for better or for worse i pulled out a copy of a space odyssey that i had recorded off tv a while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there s a sequence where the earth shuttle is approaching the space station specifically i digitized a portion of about seconds duration zooming in on the rotating space station i figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between frames to increase the differences between frames i digitized it at only frames per second to give a total of frames i captured the raw footage at a resolution of pixels with the spigot card in my centris quarter size resolution from a pal source i then imported it into premiere and put it through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate i created two versions of the movie one scaled to resolution the other at resolution i used the default quality setting in premiere and specified a key frame every ten frames i then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program i used for the results i d been reporting earlier result a playback rate of over frames per second that s right i was getting a much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun i copied the movie to my external hard disk a quantum lp s and ran it from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the mb internal hard disk also a quantum is a significant contributor to the speed of playback i modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled to size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing quicktime in action not i d try my tests with quicktime but i don t think it s entirely compatible with my centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing i tried was saving versions of the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer ie with quicktime s normal synchronized playback a preferred rate of fps didn t work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease i can t believe that quicktime s synchronization code would add this much overhead i think the slowdown was coming from the mac system s task switching a preferred rate of fps seemed to work fine i couldn t see any evidence of stutter at fps i think i could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second it was hard to tell i guess i could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the key frames to make the stutter more noticeable of course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed up the playback performance even more lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt i m afraid i missed the start of this thread but there are three factors that can significantly affect quicktime s playback speed that you may want to take into account playback bit depth things are fastest when you play a movie back at the bit depth it was compressed for this is usually or bit but other depths are of course possible type of scaling qt is optimized for double size scaling other scaling factors hit peformance much harder playback window position movieplayer limits your window placement choices to advantagous pixel boundaries by default i m not sure about premiere any combination of those can radically alter playback performance image size is of course another biggie giving the movie player lots of ram can also make a real difference forgive me if these were mentioned earlier in the thread peter lee peter e lee software conductor specular international inc lee cs umass edu or h or w beauty is bits deep plus eight bits of alpha channel
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x xli xloadimage or imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib graeme gill
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong error messages are targatorle o o rle data tga xloadimage o rle o rle is a x bit rle image with no map will dither to bits with gamma of dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation on x xloadimage x error badwindow invalid window parameter on xb this happens when your x server has run out of memory you need more memory or you need to quit any un neccessary running clients graeme gill
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in rkkb gec st james comp vuw ac nz craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz craig andrew humphrey writes in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong edited i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files exactly i didn t want to mess with tga or rle so i wrote the following script all you need is the very standard set of pbm utilities this script is a pov to jpg converter just run it like this pov jpg fred pov you will need to modify the path s in the script to reflect where you put povray and its include files if you have a problem with disk space you can use named pipes instead of temporary files i hope you find it useful bin sh if lt then echo usage width height sourcefile pov other options exit fi width height datafile shift basedatafile echo datafile sed e s pov thedatafile basename datafile basedatafile basename datafile pov dirdatafile dirname datafile cd dirdatafile afs rnd sas com u sherman pov povsrc build povray l afs rnd sas com u sherman pov povscn include o tmp data w width h height fr i thedatafile echo rawtopgm width height tmp data grn tmp green rawtopgm width height tmp data red tmp red rawtopgm width height tmp data blu tmp blue rgb toppm tmp red tmp green tmp blue cjpeg basedatafile jpg rm tmp red tmp green tmp blue tmp data grn tmp data red tmp data blu echo wrote output to basedatafile jpg chris sherman sherman unx sas com
comp.graphics	adobe photoshop mailing list i ve done a bit of looking and havn t been able to come up with a mailing list or newsgroup for users of adobe photoshop assuming i ve just not missed it i ll go ahead and see if there is enough interest to start a mailing list and or alt newsgroup drop me a note if you might be interested in subscribing thanks bob wier not of the grateful dead insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas historic image processing project wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.graphics	re morphing in article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes keywords i am looking for some morphing programs for dec s or pc s i looked for a program called dmorph using archie but could not find it i found a progrmam call morpho but it only did grayscale images does anyone know where i should look try searching for dmorf i think it s located on wuarchive wustl edu in a mirror directory i ve used it before it was pretty good pete wilmshurst email wilmshurst reg triumf ca
comp.graphics	ds where did all the te to rych festival ed ac uk r hawkes rh i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes rh positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting rh ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save rh to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone rh know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is this is because the prj project format saves all of your settings right down to the last render file s name rh i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have rh the format for the prj file sorry don t have anything on that or the cel format r c v t ell r deluxe sa stupid line noise
comp.graphics	re parametric variational design here now some initial references best regards walter inproceedings keirouz et al author walid keirouz and jahir pabon and robert young title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design booktitle international conference on design theory and methodology year editor j r rinderle pages organization american society of mechanical engineers asme optpublisher optaddress optmonth note proceedings inproceedings yamaguchi kimura author yasushi yamaguchi and fumihiko kimura title a constraint modeling system for variational geometry booktitle geometric modeling for product engineering year editor michael j wozny and j u turner and k preiss pages organization ifip publisher elsevier science publishers b v north holland amsterdam the netherlands optaddress optmonth note selected and expanded papers form the ifip wg nsf working conference on geometric modeling rensselaerville ny u s a september inproceedings chung et al author jack c h chung and joseph w klahs and robert l cook and thijs sluiter title implementation issues in variational geometry and constraint management booktitle third international conference on cad cam robotics and factories of the future cars and fof year opteditor optpages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month august note proceedings probably springer verlag berlin heidelberg article kimura et al author fumihiko kimura and hiromasa suzuki and toshio sata title variational product design by constraint propagation and satisfaction in product modelling journal annals of the cirp year volume number pages optmonth note probably international institution for production engineering research article kimura et al author f kimura and h suzuki and h ando and t sato and a kinosada title variational geometry based on logical constraints and its applications to product modelling journal annals of the cirp year volume number pages inproceedings chung schussel author jack c h chung and martin d schussel title comparison of variational and parametric design booktitle autofact year opteditor pages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month october november note conference proceedings article pabon et al author jahir pabon and robert young and walid keirouz title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design journal international journal of systems automation research and applications sara year volume optnumber pages optmonth optnote article kondo author koichi kondo title pigmod parametric and interactive geometric modeller for mechanical design journal cad computer aided design year volume number pages month december note butterworth heinemann ltd inproceedings zalik et al a author borut v z alik and nikola guid and aleksander vesel title parametric design using constraint description graph booktitle cad neue konzepte zur realisierung anwendungsorientierter cad systeme year editor frank lothar krause and detlev ruland and helmut jansen pages optorganization publisher informatik aktuell springer verlag berlin heidelberg optaddress month mai note gi fachtagung berlin inproceedings murtagh shimura author niall murtagh and masamichi shimura title parametric engineering design using constraint based reasoning booktitle aaai eighth national conference on artificial intelligence year opteditor pages organization american association for artificial intelligence publisher proceedings volume one aaai press menlo park ca u s a address boston ma month july august optnote
comp.graphics	re need gif iff file format in article rkjm i q bigboote wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes could somebody please email me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are or where i can get such info well gif stands for graphics interchange format and was put forth by compuserve back in or so it was to create a format that could be read and displayed by any system gif is limited to bit color but has a built in compression scheme lzw iff is not really a graphics format but rather a standard way to package images sounds animations text or whatever into one file iff was created by electronic arts i do believe i could be wrong for the amiga it was quickly adopted as pretty much the standard file format for the amiga the most common image format for the iff package is an ilbm interleaved bitmap but many others exist this format supports bit color images information on both of these and many more are available via anonymous ftp at zamenhof cs rice edu in the directory pub graphics formats taken from the faq for this news group wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
comp.graphics	pov where sorry if this is a faq but where can i get a bit version of pov ray any help would be greatly appreciated i need the version since turbo pascal won t let me run a bit program from within my program any info on this would also be a great help thanks byron bkidd esk compserv utas edu au b kidd cam compserv utas edu au byron kidd e mail computing services
comp.graphics	geosphere image article of alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios nd edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message id apr news nd edu sender news news nd edu usenet news system organization university of notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain thanks for any info ryan college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan p malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame in n d dept of physics comp sci malayter nd edu
comp.graphics	help colour display restriction limitation hi netters i m doing a project which is about image analysis firstly i have to find out any restrictions or limitations on the colour display on various kind of workstations they are decstation hp amiga apollo secondly i read from some graphic texts that image is displayed in bites please point out to me if i got it wrong but the images which i will deal with are displayed in bites by the software they are using currently so will there be any problems to display them under x windows in the future because we are thinking to implement the gui by x windows for our project is there any person here can help me to solve the problem or query above or give me some advice or suggestion where i can find them out please send me an e mail if there are any thanks in advance yours christine chan my address golum riv csu edu au
comp.graphics	re tiff anything in article apr yang earlham edu joshuaf yang earlham edu writes are there any tiff to anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and i can view it on cshow but all of my other programs read errors are there any basic tiff to jpeg gif pcx bmp etc try winjpeg on oak oakland edu pub msdos windows winjp zip it has more tiff support than graphics workshop it also converts to all the above formats ken
comp.graphics	re d widget wish list what i d like to see is the more generic n dimensional widget set i realize that there wouldn t be a whole shitload of people who d want more than but why stop all i need is a widget with up to n viewports showing me different d or d slices of my stuff alter pat pat ritcsh csh rit edu paf ritvax rit edu paflecke spectrum xerox com all objects are macroscopic invisible non physical or otherwise non heisenbergish fuck the cat me
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted hi i m looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines i have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv please e mail me directly as i do not get this newsgroup at my site any and all help wil be greatly appreciated gert o gert bultman bultman dgw rws nl phone o snail rijkswaterstaat dienst getijdewateren afd aoct o o o mail postbus ex the hague the netherlands o o o o please mark all personal mail persoonlijk o
comp.graphics	re ds where did all the texture rules go eric vitiello tfd coplex com eric vitiello writes to rych festival ed ac uk r hawkes rh i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes rh positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting rh ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save rh to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone rh know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is this is because the prj project format saves all of your settings right down to the last render file s name rh i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have rh the format for the prj file sorry don t have anything on that or the cel format well i dived in feet first and reverse engineered the prj file as much as i needed to extracted the mapping icon information which is when it dawned on me that d studio is useless for my needs i need a mapping icon per applied texture i want to use a special purpose graphics computer for rendering the ds models and it requires a texture rule plane to be specified in space i e position orientation of the mapping rule since only one mapping icon is used in ds to apply textures to all objects faces it renders no pun intended ds totally unsuitable for my needs anyone got a contact for alias upfront or any other good modeller for a pc i must be able to specify texture rules one per texture and this must be saved in a file which i can read i haven t found any info on alias in the copy of the faq that i have rych
comp.graphics	sw convert plot to ascii file i am looking for software that reads a plot in pcx or other format and converts it into x y coordinate
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please could someone please tell me the best ftp able viewer available for msdos i am running a mhz with svga monitor i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran under windows thanks
comp.graphics	rgb to hvs and back i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use thanks r w hartog remcoha solist htsa aha nl
comp.graphics	re wanted bit viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one try imagemagick i cannot test it but one told me it does bit anyway are you sure your xserver supports bit truecolor visuals check with xdpyinfo o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	comp graphics research i have not seen articles in comp graphics research for a long time does it he work anymore i have seen many conference related postings in comp graphics and it is hard to believe that people have not tried to post them to c g research if somebody has not got his article to comp graphics research then write to me or post here juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	polaroid palette system does anyone have any information on the polaroid palette system it appears to be a gadget for transfering graphics images to film does anyone have any detail about it like the maximum supported resolution or types of video input what did polaroid market them as fletch all irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension trans uranic heavy elements may not be used where there is life medium atomic weights are available gold lead copper jet diamond radium sapphire silver and steel sapphire and steel have been assigned
comp.graphics	re tiff anything there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca could you be more specific i need that file too but couldn t find it amongst all the directories at wuarchive page z nixsp ccsvax sfasu edu
comp.graphics	monthly lightwave mailing list faq lightwave d mail list what is lightwave lightwave d is part of a suite of programs that come bundled with a device called the toaster from newtek inc that operates on an amiga platform the lightwave software lightwave lightwave d and lightwave modeler allows and artist to create three dimensional photo realistic images for a variety of purposes why are we doing this this mailing list is for those interested in the lightwave software how it operates and in ideas on how to obtain the best quality images available to them the list is for those who own the toaster and lightwave as well as those just interested in what can be done with the package we hope to share information tips procedures and to bond as a group what are the rules since lightwave modeler are just a part of the newtek video toaster software i m sure we will discuss a few items related to the operation of the toaster however we will strive to keep the subject revolving specifically around the d software related tools and products you do not have to own a toaster to join this list ok how do i join to become a member of the lightwave d mailing list you must send a mail message to the address lightwave request bobsbox rent com in the body of the message enter subscribe lightwave l your name your site domain or just ask to be signed up and i will sign you up to the list at this point in time the process is manual but i hope to get an automated script based system in place soon there shouldn t be too much of a delay in joining expect a welcome message within days after you send your request then expect the mail to start flowing in how do i post to the list contributing to the list is simple just mail your articles to the following address lightwave bobsbox rent com your article will be processed by the system and distributed to all others joined to the list your articles will also be sent to you so you know that your article has made it to the list however those addresses that are either no good or no longer active will bounce back to you so if you post an article and another members address is no longer valid your original article will be returned to you this doesn t mean it hasn t been posted to the list in fact just the opposite is true it means that your article was posted and that it couldn t be sent to one or more of the members of the list due to a bad address note i hope to have a fix for this behavior soon how do i quit the list simply mail a request to be removed from the list to the same address you used to sign up lightwave request bobsbox rent com in the body of the message enter unsubscribe lightwave l your name your site domain i will remove your name from the list of members please if you join the list and your account is going to be closed or if you will not be able to receive mail for a while send a request to be removed from the list if you are just going to lose access for a short while still send a request for a suspension of your membership and i will suspend forwarding of the articles to you what about old articles i am currently archiving all the articles posted to the list at the originating site bobsbox however i can not continue to do this due to lack of disk space what we need is a volunteer that will maintain a compendium of articles sent to the list they can compress and store them in archives on their system they can then periodically post an index of the contents of the compendium and any other information that relates if there are no volunteers then maybe someone can donate a large scsi hard drive to me for archival purposes grin i have setup a mail based file server so that anyone interested in the list can obtain information as well as the entire archive of past articles the membership listing and other information pertaining to the lightwave d mailing list for information on this service please send a mail message to fileserver bobsbox rent com the first command to the server must be help or user name passwd use help to request a current copy of the helpfile use user name passwd to connect to the service use to get a short listing of all available commands now what do i do well sit back and enjoy the pouring out of information if you have something to offer please feel free to contribute that information to the list every little bit helps questions are welcomed it makes some of us feel important when we can answer them grin if you have any questions or comments regarding the list please contact me at the address lightwave admin bobsbox rent com cheers bob lindabury
comp.graphics	your one stop graphics shop t h e g r a p h i c s b b s rent com it s better than a sharp stick in the eye andy meyer we are pleased to announce that we have just upgraded our system to a new hayes ultra v bis v bis modem that will allow connections from bps up to bps featuring o a graphics specific system for those of you interested in such things as d graphics image processing animation clip art and the latest in public domain graphics programs o graphics specific mailing lists such as imagine d dctv and lightwave d mailing lists aliased to easy to read forums which you can join and read many more to come o free usenet access and free netmail to sites all over the world the ability to contact software hardware developers right at their mainframes just by sending them netmail from the graphics bbs not to mention your kids at college or your parents from college with our quick connections and reliable links you can have your mail sent around the world in a matter of minutes o a unique conference bulletin section the abilty to join and keep track of only the conferences that you enjoy the ability to read in files from your own personal file area for use in messages also with proper access you can create your own conference and moderate it o newsfeeds from usenet that include topics such as graphics mac amiga ibm science erotica ham radio star trek scuba diving programmers forums game designers forums and cyberspace forums o the most sophisticated but easy to learn and use mail system ever created for a pc you can easily read your mail delete it or move it to your personal directory for storage and reply to it you can attach files to your mail and send it to another member a smart sendmail feature ensures accurate addressing of netmail o ability to send mail and messages to arpanet usenet internet bitnet and any of the networks that interface with them around the world such as fidonet peoplenet and the uucp network of university and research facility systems o a file library containing downloads for most popular computers featuring an easy to learn and use system the library features master directory listing newscan and search capabilities as well as complete archived file listings the file library supports most popular transfer protocols such as x y z modem as well as advance protocols such as hs link and bi modem the file library also doubles as a file server for users from other sites all around the world o complete control over your environment you select whether you want hot key control menus more prompting etc you can define your cancel key and choose your terminal emulation you can also edit your personal login script to do what you want it to do o online games global war jet combat simulator etc new games to be added o online manual and extensive help facilities complete tracking of online usage time o megabytes of storage the graphics bbs currently runs on an ibm at at mhz with meg of ram meg ide drive call the graphics bbs at baud hours a day everyday system administator bob lindabury bobl graphics rent com
comp.graphics	re dxf to pcx gif tif or tga in murashiea mail beckman com murashiea mail beckman com ed murashie writes does anyone know of a program for the pc that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them to a raster format like pcx gif etc thanks in advance ed i m also interested in such a program but most of all i d like to know wich program is able to convert gif or pcx to dxf when i have this program i can scan pictures and frase or something like that them this will be beyond the limit roderick
comp.graphics	ntsc data to rgb for video capture does anyone know how to decode the color information of a ntsc signal i need to convert this data to rgb for a video capture utility i am writing for use with an ibm m motion video adapter card i need to know the how the v and u signals work in the color process thanks in advance for any information or algorythms etc later hammonck net
comp.graphics	re best ftp viewer please situnaya ibm bham ac uk wrote could someone please tell me the best ftp able viewer available for msdos i am running a mhz with svga monitor i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran under windows thanks ftp to wuarchive wustl edu change into mirrors msdos graphics get grfwk t zip this is the dos version of graphic workshop there is a windows version which you could probably find in the mirrors msdos windows directory but i don t know what the file name is tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives jennifer lynn urso ju andrew cmu edu wrote well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible stuff deleted jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones i use aldus photostyler on the pc and i can turn a colour or black and white image into a negative or turn a negative into a colour or black and white image i don t know how it does it but it works well to test it i scanned a negative and used aldus to create a positive it looked better than the print that the film developers gave me tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	interesting conversion problem i have a very large x feet file in macintosh canvas v something which i need to import into autocad in the least disk space intensive way possible i e eps is a big problem since it took meg to encode one page of the document the file is entirely lines and words i have access to networked macs pc s and ftp can anyone suggest how this might be accomplished email replies if you would i don t read this group much thanks in advance daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland oh help me i don t have ulcers i m a carrier i can t see you so don t pretend to be i don t like spreading rumors but what else can you do with them there i don t practice what i preach because i m not the kind of person i preach to
comp.graphics	re human head modeling software in article c wbp k taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil zyda res acct writes hi there i am interested in facial animation and want to implement some program about this area but i don t have any d information for the face i am looking for some d images of face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains d images of the face what is the copyright status of this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can be put to kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac d anim software i am interested in finding d animation programs for the mac i am especially interested in any programs that don t exist in a pc port and are so good that they would make me go buy a mac do any such exist thanks in advance
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly in c wd w bqs skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov charles j divine writes in article r lf fu geraldo cc utexas edu mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes of course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed to be what is x in the base system of course if you read the last couple of books in the series closely well and at least there are at least two points at which the real question is implied conversations proceed much like zaphod what is the ultimate question i wonder arthur not paying much attention to zaphod but needing a random seed for the infinite improbability drive think of a number any number actually it may be marvin who uses this phrase a few times as well and everytime it s arranged such that think of a number any number could be an answer to someone s question about the question i kind of like it very mystifying it s not even pick a number or tell me a number just think of one kevin martin sigma rahul net use the flipper
comp.graphics	re geosphere image in article apr news nd edu rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu ryan malayter writes does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain thanks for any info ryan i have a copy of the earth from space on my wall that i purchased from space shots inc la ca as printed on the poster the image was created by tom van sant and the geosphere project the image is copyrighted so i doubt that you ll find it legally in the public domain part of the proceeds from the sale of the image go to the geosphere project an environmental education thing and the cost is nominal so crack a and buy one also i don t think it s always safe to assume that just because the government funded a project any products will be provided for free many government agencies nasa noaa and some private groups national geographic provided assistance to the geosphere project this collaboration seems to be mostly oriented to educating the public rather than pure research dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi disclaimer i have no affiliation with any of the above mentioned groups this is just my opinion not a flame or advertisement where am i who turned off the lights what s that funny noise i feel strange aaauuugggghhhhh
comp.graphics	re i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what niko iastate edu nikolaus e schuessler writes in article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need a program that converts this to a regular file if this is a macbinary file you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt if you did if you re using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type binary first if you can open the file with a text editor and find this file must be converted with bin at the top it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex among other programs i opened the file with a text editor and it looks like vnetwork storyboardpictpict bim e i have already tried binhex which does not seem to work any other ideas niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames ia snail durham elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	re hpgl viewer and utilities in article apr music mus polymtl ca gaetan lord ecole polytechnique de montreal dg music mus polymtl ca writes hi i would like to know if there is any software pd or not who could produce x output of hpgl file on rs and same kind of software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet try export lcs mit edu i think that there is a viewer there called xviewgl check the readme in contrib bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group i am the terror that flaps in the night
comp.graphics	gif to targa hello subject says it all i need a gif to targa converter so that my dta could make a fli of them krzysztof
comp.graphics	re viewing jpeg files in apr ucbeh san uc edu lwilson ucbeh san uc edu writes can i view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college of engineering university of cincinnati yup most jpeg viewers seem to require specific video drivers since they support only specific video cards some have the standard ibm bios video support for the vga x colour mode but they leave out the other cards such as the hercules monochrome card which by the way can give very good picture quality if your dithering works right i can t remember the name of a jpeg viewer since i usually convert jpeg s to gif s before viewing them but some require vesa driver for the video cards you don t need any special hardware to view jpeg s except perhaps for a vga card and maybe a processor most people these days program for computers and neglect the rest of the processors i have a clone a nec v processor and a hercules card i have had to write some programs so that they will view gif s and animations for the vga and other colour graphics boards on my monochrome hercules card i use floyd steinberg dithers and have found that if one does something neat with the colour palette the resulting dithered image gives much greater detail than it normally would when viewed on other monochrome systems compushow has fs dithering but it does the standard thing with the image palette before dithering my way gives a brighter more detailed image anyway enough of my rambling in the wrong direction the final point is as far as i know you don t need extra hardware to view jpeg s other than the vga and perhaps a or better have a day gerry
comp.graphics	corel draw or harvard draw my wife wants to publish a newsletter she s no artist so she intends to use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box around it etc we have mspublisher for manipulating text but it is not suitable for doing much with graphics so she needs a more specialised tool right now she s looking at corel draw and harvard draw there seem to be more books in the stores on corel than on harvard so she s inclined to go with corel on the basis of popularity can anyone give us an informed opinion on which package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative available if this is a faq please withhold the flames and just send the location of the faq document thanks three ps s is it ok to use clip art from harvard draw or whatever for commercial purposes we have a dpi laser jet printer what would be a good scanner for reading in paper clipart how about someone starting up a newsgroup on desktop publishing if one doesn t exist
comp.graphics	real time visualization hello i am interested to hear from people working in the field of visual simulation ie driving simulation flight simulation etc would be very pleased to see what is going on in the field of research and industrial development for those of you interested as well there is a workshop preferedly held in german situated in wuppertal november specially related to the above topic the title sichtsysteme visualisierung in der simulationstechnik complete details are available please contact me r moeller rmoe welfag elektro uni wuppertal de
comp.graphics	re geosphere image rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu ryan malayter writes article of alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios nd edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message id apr news nd edu sender news news nd edu usenet news system organization university of notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain this image is copyrighted early in another news group it was being used as a texture map in a planet orbiting simulation that program was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the earth had to be pulled because of copyright infringement issues mp michael prevost sterling software moffett field ca prevost eos arc nasa gov
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs in article rkntjinnd no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article apr nessie mcc ac uk lilley v cgu mcc ac uk chris lilley writes in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably to ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which is provided in the toolkit or just use the urt tool rastorle i seem to remember that xloadimage can do bit servers too yes both it and the newer xli can wes barris ph minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	re wanted bit viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes hello thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one both xli and xloadimage will display in bit color if a bit visual is available check the output of xdpyinfo to see if one is wes barris ph minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	cga help wanted hi there i m looking for help on hi rez cga modes hey i know it sounds crazy but at the moment it s got to do my card s manual says it does something like by colour and by colour the card has k memory could anyone give me some help on how to implement these modes assembly language is fine any other usefull tips on the cga regs will also help thanx in advance frans my email is leander up ac za
comp.graphics	what has happened to dkb l trearn hello i ve been on the dkbtrace povray mailing list out of trearn bitnet for some time now but when i tried to post the other day the listserv told me that the list doesn t exist so i got a global list of groups from the listserv and nothing i grepped every string i could think of if frank ville saari andre beck or anyone else who s a regular on dkb l can tell me what is going on please do regards david k drum uc mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	tangent vectors of kochanek bartels splines i m working on a system which uses a given set of d key frame positions x y z to control an imaginary camera movement i m using kochanek bartels splines as described in the siggraph proceedings to create a variable number of inbetweens between the key frames i want the inbetweens to be given in the form x y z dx dy dz where the last three argumentsa are the x y and z component of the viewing direction vector of the camera when positioned at x y z the method presented by kochanek and bartels only deals with the positions of the inbetween view points to be generated i ve tried to set the viewing direction at a view point equal to the chord between the two adjacent view points which in general are not key frames but this causes a sligt discontinuity of the viewing direction vector at the key frame positions although the spatial movement seems to work fine and i m quite certain i think that i ve not simply made an implementation error now i wonder if anyone out there has used this spline form for similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors i d appreciate replies to be emailed to me at iharkest lise unit no anyone else interested in the answer will be sent a summary of the replies if they contact me n g e a r k e s t a d iharkest lise unit no comp sc nth norwegian institute of technology some people play hard to get i play hard to want ford fairlane
comp.graphics	re need help z buffering lines areas together david gorgen writes i m asking for help on a sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision in z buffering that i ve encountered in different pex implementations i can t find any discussion of this problem in any resources i can lay hands on e g the comp windows x pex faq gaskins s pexlib programming manual vendors documentation the problem to be solved is to eliminate or minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use of z buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated z values along a line will differ slightly due to roundoff error from the interpolated z values across an area even when the endpoints of the line are coincident with vertices of the area because of this it s a tossup whether the z buffer will allow the line pixels or the area pixels to be displayed visually the result tends to be a dashed line effect even though the line is supposed to be solid using the pexlib api my approach to a solution is to use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms in two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures or immediate mode output must be organized so that one view table index is always in effect for areas and the other is always in effect for lines the result is a slight shift in npc z coordinates for the lines so as to attempt to bias the tossup situations in favor of the lines this shift is effected by moving the front and back clipping planes used in the pexlib view table entry for lines just a hair backwards i e smaller vrc z coordinates compared to their positions in the view table entry used for areas this means that when a point is transformed to npc its z value will be slightly bigger if it comes from a line than if it comes from an area thus accomplishing the desired bias i would expect the z roundoff errors which cause the problem to amount to a few units at most out of the entire dynamic range of the z buffer typically from to if not i e or bit z buffers therefore it seems that a tiny fraction of the range of z in vrc between the front and back clip planes ought to suffice to reliably fix the stitching but in fact experience shows that the shift has to be as much as to of the range empirically it s worst when the npc z component of the slope of the surface is high i e when it appears more or less edge on to the viewer it s as if only or bits of the z buffer have any dependable meaning this amount is so great that one problem is replaced by another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed to lie behind i ve observed the problem on both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers to approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem on an mit pexlib x implementation this version is known to compile and run on an hp ux system with pex open questions why does this happen am i configuring the pex view table wrongly is there a systematic difference in z interpolation for lines as opposed to areas e g pixel centers versus corners which could be corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding z precision in their interpolators something else what to do about it can i fix my use of the view table to allow better precision in z buffered hlhsr is there another approach i can take to remove the stitching artifacts am i just out of luck we here at ibm have the same problem with our workstations i was also shocked when i first realized that you have to offset lines from fills by about bits assuming bit z buffer this seems huge but is only of the dynamic range in those terms it doesn t seem so bad what is happening is that the interpolation in z is not totally linear due mainly to roundoff i believe so the polygon is not planar in z but is more like a ruffles potato chip ditto with lines when you start end at different x y values the ridges are out of phase resulting in the stitch effect you have the same problem if you try to draw polygon right on top of another but with different vertices you will likely see a smeared effect where they overlap example try polygon polygon your implementation is correct in fact we do a similar trick when rendering primitives that have lines and polygons such as nurbs surfaces with isoparametric lines without the trick the lines appear stitched as you say when the application draws lines polygons independently the system does not have the smarts to automatically do the z shifting so the application must do it this is what you have discovered and are doing bravo note to ibm ers the information given here has been previously disclosed through proper channels so i m not giving away any new unpublished info mark einkauf einkauf austin ibm com ibm advanced workstations and systems graphics systems austin tx views and opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of ibm corp
comp.graphics	virtual sound i m looking for algorithms or articles on virtual sound what i want to do is the following from a fast source eg a cdrom several sound sources are read each having it s own defined position and other attributes eg direction etc given the listeners position and direction the sum of sound played back in each of the listeners earphones will be a function of this position and direction this means that some simulation of the ears coloring of sound relative to it s incoming direction have to be done for each sound source i think this is possible to do with a lookup table of impulse responses for several angles relative to each ear and interpolate an impulse function from this for a given angle this impulse function could then be convoluted with the sound from the source this impulse function must be changed every time some sound source changes position or the listener changes orientation additionally some reflection diffusion and absorbtion due to the environment wich is defined could be simulated but this requires some sort of sound propagandation simulation kinda like some radiosity algorithm have someone done this and or written articles on implementing such a system please post or mail any answers or comments torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives jennifer lynn urso ju andrew cmu edu writes also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible scanning and altering is no big deal i don t know what types of features you have in your version of photoshop but the one i use which incidentally is on a quadra has gallery effects and all types of other neato stuff i m just wondering why you would want to put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that s your print do you know what exactly your aim is in all of this like are you doing this just for fun for a business to gain more computer knowledge for a project you re working on otherwise i guess i don t know if i d be helping or not by posting info on scanning and stuff ok cool seeya jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones it is for a business and the end product has to be a photograph i take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them by hand at present i would like to do this by using a computer i am just trying to find a vendor who can convert my computer stored images to negatives or thermal print the customer will want his her copy as much as possible like a brand new original photgraph david ps thanks to all of you who have sent me information it was very helpful in my learning about computers combined with photography if anyone else has any information i would be grateful
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs in article apr dsd es com pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously i don t know the answer the to this one although with bits i would assume that it was one or the other stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously according to the literature it will do quadruple buffering so that you can have double buffered stereo output brian
comp.graphics	gif to wpg or tiff converter i am looking for an available program that would convert gif files to other formats usable on dos based software such as wordperfect presentations which will handle wpg and tiff among others any suggestions would be appreciated thank you very much for your time and help steve alford novavax nova edu steve alford nova university college avenue ft lauderdale fl uucp gatech uflorida ucf cs novavax alford internet alford novavax nova edu
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly it s the number of legs on a centipede so now you know richard kirk image processing group crosfield electronics ltd u k rak crosfield co uk x hemel hempstead herts hp rh
comp.graphics	genoa s windowsvga true color board for immediate release editorial contact single source marketing myra manahan genoa systems joseph brunoli neil roehm technical genoa presents high performance video graphics accelerator san jose calif usa genoa systems corporation announces windowsvga a true color bit graphics accelerator card that delivers up to million colors at speeds faster than the competition plus it offers a full range of resolutions high refresh rates as well as unique proprietary performance features the card is available in both bit isa bus and bit vesa local bus versions models and vl with mb dram on board the windowsvga card offers maximum resolution up to x and supports a refresh rate of hz at x and resolution up to x non interlaced both models provide performance many times greater than standard svga boards yet conform to all current video standards windowsvga features genoa s flickerfree tm technology which eliminates screen flash and flicker to make viewing much more comfortable the cards also come with safescan tm a utility developed by genoa to eliminate the black border around the screen and thereby provide percent screen use for overscanning monitors windowsvga model vl takes full advantage of the speed offered by the new vesa local bus technology most vl bus cards will only handle data transfers up to mhz but the vl will transfer data at the full speed of the cpu up to mhz genoa is also offering this card in the turbobahn combination packaged with their turboexpress vl motherboard built around the cirrus logic gd gui accelerator windowsvga offers the user an exceptional price performance value genoa s advanced proprietary drivers act to turbocharge the chip thereby providing an affordable accelerator card with power and performance that surpass many of the more highly priced chip cards the genoa user will enjoy optimal speed and reliability for such programs as windows autocad autoshade d studio os orcad and more driver updates and product bulletins are available on genoa s bbs at genoa systems manufactures and markets an extensive line of graphics adapters motherboards audio and multimedia cards for ibm compatible personal computers all products come with a two year limited warranty on parts and labor genoa products are currently distributed worldwide through authorized distributors resellers vars and systems integrators for more information contact joe brunoli marketing manager genoa systems at e trimble road san jose calif tel or fax stefan hartmann stefanh rahul net
comp.graphics	looking for patches to xv to better support tiff output recently we have found tiff manipulation packages which do not recognize tiff files output by xv this is due to a missing xresolution and yresolution tag which apparently is required or at least believed to be required for valid tiff i have checked both xv x and xv x and neither of these do indeed copy these tags has anyone out there hacked in the fixes for xv to support these tags i have been told that i could find some code in tiff tools tiffcp c but that directory is one of many of the tiff group not distributed with xv i hope to obtain the original tiff src and look at it but would prefer to find code already known to work in xv s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.graphics	pc paint program neopaint v help i am looking for a shareware graphics package called neopaint v i saw it in a shareware catalog and was hoping that i could ftp it from the net but have been unable to locate it i have tried archie and i have gone through the entire comp graphics newsgroup looking for some reference to it and have found none i have also looked through the faq and also no reference the program is called neopaint v and if anyone has heard of it or knows where i can get it i would appreciate it suggestions for other pc based shareware paint programs would also be appreciated email me your responses much thanks sean
comp.graphics	re sigkids research showcase call it was brought to my attention that there was an oversight in the sigkids research showcase call for participation and entry form please note that the sigkids research showcase is part of siggraph august anaheim california thank you diane schwartz sigkids committee member institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois schwartz ils nwu edu
comp.graphics	d widget wish list i am very interested in hearing from all of you who are using or implementing d interactive applications what types of d widgets you would like to have in your applications a d widget is usually located in the same scene as other d objects of the application it may let you manipulate application data the camera d objects in the scene and so on or view the status of the application or d objects via the widget s shape color position orientation and so on or do whatever i missed but you think is possible for example a manipulative widget can be virtual trackball shown as a partially transparent sphere super imposed on the object to be rotated a feedback widget can be a ruler with ends anchored to objects the length of the ruler changes as the objects move and a numeric value is shown on the ruler indicating the distance a widget can provide both manipulation and feedback for example the ruler can be used to change the distance between the objects along its own axis please e mail me or post your opinions on d interaction the information i gathered will help me design a d ui construction tool your help is very much appreciated tony lau tlau cs ubc ca m sc student dept of computer science
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs lioness maple circa ufl edu okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit pmartz dsd es com paul martz does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously lioness maple circa ufl edu stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal pmartz dsd es com paul martz same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously for both these questions it s an inclusive or alpha plus stencil is supported they re separate as is double buffered stereo steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california barbie had it right math is hard
comp.graphics	phigs user group conference first annual phigs user group conference the first annual phigs user group conference was held march in orlando florida the conference was organized by the rensse laer design research center in co operation with ieee and sig graph attendees came from five countries spanning three con tinents a good cross section of the phigs community was represented at this conference with participants including phigs users workstation vendors third party phigs implementors stan dards committee members and researchers from industry and academia the opening speaker dr richard puk challenged phigs users to take charge of your phigs by participating in phigs standardization activities and communicating their needs to phigs implementors the closing speaker dr andries van dam described his vision of the future of graphics standards beyond phigs technical paper sessions in the conference covered the following topics phigs and x application toolkits application issues texture mapping nurbs phigs extensions and object oriented libraries and frameworks panel sessions on phigs and pex phigs non retained data real world cad applications using phigs and portability issues generated enthusiastic discussions and formed a good forum for exchange of ideas needs and experiences the conference also included a day full of tutorials on topics rang ing from mathematics for d graphics to object oriented tools based on phigs next year s conference is planned for march phigs everywhere at the conference phigs vendors described and demonstrated phigs products that run on all types of computers from pcs to mainframes megatek corporation demonstrated their phigs extensions including conditional traversal composite logical input devices texturing and translucency template graphics software launched figaro pro the photo realistic option for phigs figaro pro is designed to add advanced rendering to the existing phigs api with features like ray tracing materials anti aliasing and texture mapping radiosity support is also planned figaro is an example of how tgs continues to add newly emerging graphics features to their products figaro supports immediate mode extensions to phigs and also supports sun xgl hp starbase and sgi gl opengl figaro for nt will be released this summer tgs also demonstrated the latest versions of figraph a powerful call charting system based on phigs and figt an object oriented utility library for phigs pex developers g g and gallium software demonstrated a new version of gphigs on silicon graphics workstations scheduled for summer ver sion of gphigs the company s phigs library for worksta tions will include an advanced phigs debugger that allows phigs developers to display and browse phigs structures and other phigs internal state g g also described their non duplicated data store that stores pointers to application data in the gphigs css for more efficient use of memory in addition g g described their application gse that allows application callback functions during gphigs traversal gphigs and phigure g g s data visual izer and application development toolkit are currently available on all major workstations that support gl x windows pex or starbase wise software presented a slide show of z phigs for ms windows and arena a phigs based modeller render z phigs implements most of the phigs primitives in addition z phigs has built in many advanced rendering features like texture mapping shadow genera tion area quick updates and ray tracing a demo disk of z phigs or arena is available on request atc exhibited grafpak phigs their full featured phigs implemen tation based on dec phigs grafpak phigs is available on most workstation platforms with c fortran and ada bindings and incor porates pex support within the booth sponsored by advanced technology center digital equipment corporation demonstrated dec phigs v running on the dec axp pxg atcs grafpak phigs is a port of dec phigs dec phigs v contains most phigs and phigs plus features with support for pex v protocol dec phigs also contains most gm eds phigs extensions including post to view as well as proprietary extensions to support immediate mode rendering and the use of phigs in an x environment axp dec and dec phigs are trademarks of digital equipment cor poration grafpak phigs and atc are trademarks of advanced tech nology center pex and x are trademarks of massachusetts insti tute of technology the ibm exhibit featured a gto accelerator attached to an ibm workstation running graphigs and pex hewlett packard and shographics demonstrated at the conference a hewlett packard machine was coupled to display on a shographics pex terminal hp showcased their latest phigs product enhance ments phigs user group the phigs users group was formed to aid the development of phigs applications and provide user feedback to phigs implementors and phigs standards bodies for more information about the phigs users group send e mail to phigsug cadrt me vt edu or write to sankar jayaram virginia polytechnic institute randolph hall blacksburg va fax vendor contacts megatek corporation tel fax template graphics software tel fax wise software gmbh tel fax g g north american sales tel fax advanced technology center tel fax digital equipment corporation tel international business machines corporation tel hewlett packard company tel copies of the conference proceedings copies of the conference proceedings may be obtained by contact ing mary johnson at johnson mary design and manufacturing institute rensselaer polytechnic institute eighth street building cii room troy ny tel fax email mjohnson rdrc rpi edu the cost is per binder
comp.graphics	parametric variational design hi everyone i am looking for papers articels books or any other source of information about parametric variational design in cad solid modeling any suggetions references would be greatly appreaciated thanks in advance jayesh patel enuxha eas asu edu ip no
comp.graphics	an very broad question i am considering creating a demo for the ibm pc for my band i would like to combine interesting graphics and a sample of my music in the program i have seen things like this done for other platforms and even a few for the pc but since i m completly new to this i have no idea wher to start i m pretty sure that i am not skilled enough to put this together but i was hoping that you collectivly could a let me know what issues i need to worry about things i should take into consideration when developing the concept b perhaps someone knows of a programmer artist who would be interested in this type of a project i know these are rather broad questions but any information would be most helpful thanks gregory winer an po cwru edu
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article apr htsa aha nl remcoha htsa aha nl remco hartog writes i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use i have a little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	gif viewer source code for pc does anyone know where i could get some source code for a gif viewer on a pc it doesn t have to be fancy it would be best if it were written in c to display gif pictures on a vga screen i was hoping to get it for free from an ftp site but i haven t been able to find it yet david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	final call for papers call for papers progress in neural networks special volume on shape analysis omid m omidvar minsoo suk series editor volume editor significant progress has been made recently in shape analysis using neural networks and the energy minimization concept ablex publishing corporation is planning a special volume on shape analysis scheduled for this year this volume will be a part of progress in neural networks an annual book series reviewing research in modelling analysis design and application of neural networks the primary aim of this volume is to present in a single volume the most important achievements made on this important topic which are otherwise scattered in diverse literature authors are invited to submit original manuscripts detailing recent progress suggested topics include but are not limited to shape modelling shape estimation shape recovery shape representation shape matching surface reconstruction and surface decomposition research work utilizing neural networks directly or based on energy minimization techniques such as markov random field mean field annealing simulated annealing graduated non convexity algorithms and resistive networks are most welcome the paper should be tutorial in nature self contained and preferably but not necessarily about fifty double spaced pages in length please send electronically if you prefer you can send a hardcopy to the address below an abstract and an outline to msuk ima enst fr by may the full paper must be submitted by july to europe usa professor minsoo suk professor omid m omidvar department images computer science department ecole nationale superieure university of district of columbia des telecommunications connecticut ave n w rue barrault washington d c paris cedex phone france fax fax email oomidvar udcvax bitnet email msuk ima enst fr
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem a word of warning for those of you registering for siggraph i just received my registration form back in the mail with the envelope marked return to sender moved left no address closed po box the address i used to register for siggraph is the one printed on the registration form acm siggraph po box chicago il i printed the envelope in my best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town or moved i ended up faxing my registration to i hope that number is real michael zyda
comp.graphics	re ntsc data to rgb for video capture usually you apply r y g u b v after unlevelshifting u and v subtracting from them this matrix multiplication may give results out of rgb space so you have to clamp the resulting bytes to the conversion should be done with arbitrary big integers not floats this applies to yuv data whereas ntsc may have yiq where a degree rotation to u v is buid in o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article apr eye com jesse eye com jesse lackey writes in article rguqoinnrc edna cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au alan christiansen writes i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this is all c on hp pa risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span as fast as possible as far as i could tell for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time and can be made all convex definitely the way to go ok thanks for help everyone i still haven t found quite what i m looking for but i ve got finals coming up soon so i have to put all this on hold thanx lucas
comp.graphics	digital terrain data for visualization needed we need terrain data for a visualization research currently taking place in tel aviv university we have two databases that we are currently working on but we would like to work on more databases possibly more complicated and ones that will give prettier images before i describe what kind of data we need let me mention that we are going to present a paper titled photo realistic imaging of digital terrains which describes the research and the results in the eurographics conference in barcelona this september we are going to show a video tape with some of our results so any good data that we will receive will be presented in the tape with a mention of the donator we are working on databases consisting of aerial or satelite photographs and terrain elevation maps dtm each database consists of a d array of height values any data format can be used for each value and a corresponding d array of color values can be gray level color value or full bit r g b values other format can also be used we work on x and x resolution databases if anybody has access to this kind of data or knows where we can get such data files please respond in this news group or better email us directly amit math tau ac il amit shaked or danny indigo bgu ac il daniel cohen of course the names of the people who will help us get the data will be cited in our paper and in further publications
comp.graphics	ftp site s with gifs i have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell me of some ftp sites which do posses goods gifs and a wide range please email me at the address above thanks martin
comp.graphics	kubota vs e s freedome more people have been asking for information on the kubota graphics workstations so here is some more info on the kenai denali vs the e s freedom here is the text of a denali vs e s freedom done by d h brown associates denali bears a strong resemblance to evans and sutherlands freedom graphics subsystem in several aspects of its high level design both products use a parallel array of processors for geometric computations both have a pixel router to connect this front end to a second array of pixel processors as a result denali and freedome overlap significantly in performance and functionality both design teams also appear to have similar philosophies with respect to modularity scalability and market penetration there remain however several important differences between the kpc and e s products evans and sutherland designed freedom as a high end developer s dream system with plenty of performance potential and flexibility in its favor freedom has configurations from two to sixteen floating point units a border range that starts and ends at a higher price and performance levels than denali all freedom systems include a large fixed number of pixel processors that support a broader variety of color blending functions the freedom design treats its entire image memory as general purpose memory allowing developers to allocate it on a flexible basis to a number of special purpose applications finally e s provided freedom with very flexible otput and video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications note that kpc is working an auxiliary board for ntsc and pal output that will not require an external video encoder e s programmable output features however will remain much more flexible the kpc design team in contrast made denali more of an end user s system entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low end freedom configurations and come in at more realistic mainstream price points denali does not need as many modules as freedome because it uses a deeper scan conversion pipeline to support each one resulting in better cost performance characteristics although both products provide strong support for d imaging and volume rendering kpc recognized that not all users will want an even mix of these capabilities denali s configuration flexibility allows customers in effect to purchase geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately and to upgrade them separately as needed both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping at workstation price levels as a way to attack sgi s more expensive vgxt and realityengine systems the only other products to provide this capability kpc supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation of textures in hardware but provides only software support for the higher qualtiy tri linear interpolated mipmapping method on balance however denali provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than e s for most applications aside from being much more affordable kpc solutions deliver more parallelism for texture processing and more off screen memory for general graphics data storage by implementing texture mapping on its transformation modules e s foces customers to move very quickly to higher price levels to obtain better texturing performance kubota avoids this problem by linking texturing to its frame buffer modules providing a lower cost more scalable solution hope this helps brian ps this was reprinted without permission for the full text please contact kubota
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes yes xv is an bit program this is not a bug never claimed it is a bug xv can import bit images and quantises them down to bits this is a handy facility not a bug never claimed it is a bug how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially i guess i edited my note on this away from the article i posted to many newsgroups i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations and lastly jpeg is a compression algorithm it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth again this is not a bug never claimed it is a bug i tried kept sure i don t claim that jpeg is noting else than a compression algorithm because i know what the jpeg is you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far you also missed what is were wrong with xv however i did wrote it juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	convertion program to gremlin i was wondering if somebody knows of a pd program for converting any graphic formats such as fig pic unixplot tek etc to gremlin thanks dan
comp.graphics	re human head modeling software in article c wbp k taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil zyda res acct writes hi there i am interested in facial animation and want to implement some program about this area but i don t have any d information for the face i am looking for some d images of face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains d images of the face what is the copyright status of this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can be put to kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca kaveh all of the data included with in the cyberware demo is non proprietary use it as you like i just ask that you give us credit if you use it in a research paper project and send us the results thanks geo cyberware george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness posted on behalf of craig southeren who does not have access to a net account can anyone provide me with a colour space transform that would emulate the effects of red green colour blindness i have had a quick look in the computer graphics literature with no results perhaps someone who has access to medical information could help i would like to write a program probably a ppm filter to allow previewing of images to check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this is a bit difficult please email replies i will summarise and repost if there is sufficient interest craig craig southeren you can have it good cheap chief engineer or fast any two picture start productions arthur c clarke email c geoffw ucc su oz au phone educate don t legislate
comp.graphics	re rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted in article aa sun nl nluug nl bultman dgw rws nl g w bultman writes hi i m looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines i have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv have you checked foley s book the solutions are in chapter yeh usc
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article ltu buinne j caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than nah i figure most people would be so busy reading that they wouldn t have time to post spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca until i meet you then in upper hell convulsed foaming immortal blood farewell j berryman a professor s song
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i use arts letters on a pc and if you make use of the tracing preferences it traces beautifully but there s a trick to tracing i ve traced entire cartoon images into custom clip art but you can t expect to just point to the image and get it just like that it takes a little work in some cases a lot of work you need to trace a drawing piece by piece and then put it together it s kinda hard to explain in type but if you re ever in reno i can give you a little demonstration
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back i have a little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than yeh usc
comp.graphics	a graphic design newsgroup which newsgroup discusses graphic design on pcs and macs y know like with corel draw
comp.graphics	screen capture is there a dos screen capture utility pd or shareware that will work reliably with vesa a x screens thanks h w stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor does anyone on this group use this program it stacks up pretty well to corel draw and since i don t have a cdrom it was the best buy maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks
comp.graphics	re ftp site s with gifs mharring cch coventry ac uk martin writes i have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell me of some ftp sites which do posses goods gifs and a wide range whatever you do don t ftp to the sites listed in my sig you won t like what you find really i beg you not to go there please e ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	re colour transform for red green colour blindness in article geoffw extro ucc su oz au geoffw extro ucc su oz au geoffrey warren hicks writes posted on behalf of craig southeren who does not have access to a net account can anyone provide me with a colour space transform that would emulate the effects of red green colour blindness i have had a quick look in the computer graphics literature with no results perhaps someone who has access to medical information could help certainly reference follows bear in mind that there are at least two conditions which may be called red green colour blind one protanopia is caused by a lack or major dysfunction of the l cones those that respond best to long wavelengths this gives much reduced red green and red violet discrimination and also means that reds look dimmer than than they do to people with normal vision the other deuteranopia is due to missing or dysfunctional m cones although it can also be caused by a lack of the l m cone difference signals in the retina it also gives reduced red green discrimination but red violet is unaffected unlike protanopia reds are not dimmer than normal on a uniform chromaticity diagram the horseshoe shaped one you see in computer graphics books there is a single confusion point for each type of colour deficiency colours which are confused lie on straight lines radiating from this point for protanopia the point is at u v very close to the far red corner for deuteranopia the point is at u v note that different experimental investigations in the literature give slightly different values for these depending on the precise details of the experimental setup random errors and so on the values quoted are typical so if all colours on a line are seen as the same which colour is actually seen this problem has now been solved tests on people with one normal eye and one affected eye have shown that there is an axis for each type of disorder onto which all the colours collapse for protanopes this joins up nm and nm on the spectral locus the edge of the horseshoe for deuteranopes the line is very similar joining nm and nm so to convert colours from normal vision to a simulated protanopia or duuteranopia plot the colour on a uniform chromaticity diagram construct a line from this point to the appropriate confusion point find the intersection of this line with the appropriate axis line this is the new chromaticity the best reference for this is meyer g w greenberg d p colour defective vision and computer graphics displays ieee computer graphics and applications you will also need a decent reference on basic colour science if you are not familiar with the cie xyz colour model and the uniform chromaticity scale diagram i would like to write a program probably a ppm filter to allow previewing of images to check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this is a bit difficult yes this is certainly possible you will need the chromaticities of the red green and blue phosphors of the monitor you intend to display the images on and the chromaticity of the white point this information can be measured or obtained from the manufacturer i posted a list of some monitor chromaticities a couple of weeks ago the procedure for each pixel is as follows some lookup tables might be a help here a convert rgb to cie xyz this is a simple matrix multiplication once you have the monitor data b retaining the y component for later convert xyz to chromaticity coordinates u v using u x x y z v y x y z c find the equation of the line as in step above d find the intersection as in step e convert back from u v to xyz using the y value from step a f ensure that this new colour can be displayed on your monitor if not move it along a line in xyz space towards neutral grey ie half way between black and white until it is displayable please email replies i will summarise and repost if there is sufficient interest done also posted for the rest of us chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	gif viewer i am having trouble viewing gif files on my system large sections don t show up i have tried vpic and picem both do the same i am running a gateway c with a speedstar plus vga card and an nec multisync ds inch monitor any suggestions i don t know if robert woodward department of physiology university of missouri columbia mo e mail c mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives in article apr seq uncwil edu hawks seq uncwil edu david hawks writes it is for a business and the end product has to be a photograph i take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them by hand at present i would like to do this by using a computer i am just trying to find a vendor who can convert my computer stored images to negatives or thermal print the customer will want his her copy as much as possible like a brand new original photgraph there are several crt to film writers around agfa has some they also might be called matrix and i am pretty sure other companies sell the same equipment you might want to talk to any company in your area that does presentation slides or offers graphics services they should have those machines and they might point you to a local vendor from there on it s all a question of money they units are essentially high res crts plus a filter wheel plus a mm camera and a computer hook up david reiner p s i am currently shooting my slides for my next talk on one of the agfa machines
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files can i view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college of engineering university of cincinnati
comp.graphics	libraries for text math graphics display does anyone know of any c or c libraries for preparing and displaying quickly pages of mixed text mathematical equations and graphics circles ellipses etc on the vdu the maths wouldnt need to be up to tex quality but it would be useful to be scaleable the main thing would be to be able to generate the display quickly from a minimum set of formatting code thanks ed campbell
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article ltu buinne j caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than or alternatively of the questions cover of the topics in this group making them frequently asked so the other cover of the topics making them rarely asked and thus in sore need of answering chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes moved on a bit i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour ok you could do this by copying the bit file to a bit file and using the extra bits to hold the index entry having done this you need to do something to them what exactly apply the difference in rgb between the original and modified palette entry to each colour in the group this could generate colours with rgb outside the range it would also lead to discontinuities when different parts of a smooth colour gradient mapped to several different palette entries you could interpolate from full modification to no modification depending how far each colour was from the palette entry however i suspect this would look rather odd so in summary what i said in my previous posting still holds how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially in other words to edit a bit file you need software built for the job tacking mods onto xv is going to create more problems than it solves as to the other bits you seemed to be claiming that there were bugs in xv if that was not what you meant then you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far yes i probably did i found that the collected digest format of your posting made it a little difficult to understand precisely what your point was sorry if i misunderstood you also missed what is were wrong with xv however i did wrote it yes again what is was wrong with xv chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	pc question modes hi i need to know if there is a color graphics mode that allows multiple pages i want something like mode x x x pages i have been experimenting with graphics by calling the bios with borland turbo c i feel like i am flying blind in this area and could use all the help that you can give thanks ivan ivan pulleyn university of rochester e mail ip b uhura cc rochester edu
comp.graphics	raw gif hello can anybody help me to find a program that converts a format named raw also known as img to the gif format or jpeg one it s desirable to be for a unix machine than for a pc raw format of a n n image is a file that contain a tail of n n characters each one referencing to the k n j pixel of the monocrome image where k and j lies between and n thanxs mne ing puc cl
comp.graphics	pbm dec when s the new version does anyone know if the fabled new version of pbm will be out soon as far as i know the current version is dec jeff p are you out there jeffrey e hundstad
comp.graphics	ascii or ansi pics where can someone tell me where i could find ansi or ascii pics i already found the gopher ascii pics thanks richard mancsuo curdm uxa ecn bgu edu
comp.graphics	digital cameras i m interested in obtaining the highest possible image capture in a ms windows application the resulting image must go to print and high resolution is the name of the game i m familiar with and unhappy with composite video capture technology what kind of resolution can i get out of an svhs signal what about rgb and who makes rgb cameras does anyone have any experience with digital cameras any help at all would be greatly appreciated william brandsdorfer uucp uunet lehman com wbrand lehman brothers inet wbrand lehman com greenwich st voice new york n y
comp.graphics	windows bmp something wanted g day all i m looking for a program to convert bmp images to gif tga or even ppm i d prefer a unix program but dos is fine also i ve seen alchemy for dos and some windows image viewers which can save an image in other formats but what i m after is a converter not a viewer any help would be apprieciated cheers stephen s peter unsw edu au stephen peter or steve keystone arch unsw edu au v school of architecture university of new south wales australia phone fax messages
comp.graphics	ibm writing to screen memory graphics can anyone give me information or lead me to electronic information not books i m too poor regarding programming the standard graphics modes x x and x x are easy enough but i m not so sure about the rest something about planes or something and writing to ports and the like but i don t know the numbers or anything for the color modes i think if i m wrong let me know also x x is just one byte pixel that s easy enough but are there any other ways to write to the screen perhaps bytes at a time or something like that of course i d appreciate any information about any mode which reminds me of another question do the supervga modes work the same generally as the normal and color modes or is not only the mode numbers for various cards different but the methods for writing to the screen different as well thanks for any help you can give me i m developing a screen class for c and find myself searching for information oh i do have ralf brown s interrupt list which has given me tons of invaluable information already it just doesn t go into the screen programming details except for the read write pixel bios calls thanks again edward ball sigless knight eball calvin edu
comp.graphics	synergy revolt an otis colaberation project the otis project presents synergy revolt the first in a continuing series of collaborative art initiatives designed to exploit the binarity of the infosphere this series of diversely structured art manipulation projects will attempt to stretch across network boundries encouraging use of electronic mail fax video photography scanned conventional art and even sound to create multi artist still visuals in gif and jpg formats visualists from all technical levels are welcome revolt will be structured simply there will be three stages of production the first stage will consist of all participants creating one still work as a starter piece that two other partici pants will in turn manipulate all first stage base images are due by sunday may rd midnight central daylight time stage two will begin on may th all images will be sent to another arbitrarily chosen participant for them to do manipulations on in anyway they see fit for purely digital artists this may consist of filtering the image through their favorite paint program for analog artists this may well be printing a hardcopy of the image and adding their own part with pen pencil or white out then scan ning in the image again to be transferred on to the third stage artist all second stage works are due by midnight on sunday may th stage three is the finishing stage and will begin on may st all artists will do what they think it takes to finish up the image they ve been given using whatever technique they see as worthy these images will be due on june th midnight all involved will participate in each stage of creation to join send email mail with the following info name email address mail address scanner access color grey none printer access laser postscript inkjet color dot computer access mac ibm pc sun amiga atari next other output format tiff targa gif jpeg pict postscript fax photocopy pcx windows bitmap graphics level bit bit bit ftp access time limitations address the information to email mad celt cwis unomaha edu andrew booth project manager include revolt in the subject line mail the otis project synergy revolt po bx omaha ne remember all starter images are due on sunday may rd deposit them at either of these ftp sites sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis incoming or projects otis incoming or send uuencoded images to us via email or send hardcopies to address above or arrange fax exchange if you don t get your starter image in you won t be able to participate until synergy phase ii in mid june we will do our best to accomodate facilitate image exchange for the technologically impaired if you don t have access to a scanner but need one we ll try to help if you need an image printed out and sent to you let us know send an sase if you anticipate this additional information available on the following suggestions for use of uncommon mediums such as video stills electronic imaging and sound fax availability times copyright considerations appropriation image conversion the otis project in general andy booth were you ever abducted by aliens ever see elvis po bx at the local i would like to hear from you omaha ne about any paranormal experiences you have had
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back remco hartog remcoha htsa aha nl wrote i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use lets see if i have this right hsv hsb hsl and none of those are the same as hls hopefully hvs is just a transposition of hsv and not yet another color model the following code should do the hsv hsl coding i haven t tried it yet thanks to bultman dgw rws nl another possibility is mirrors msdos graphics graphgem zip on wuarchive wustl edu bill neisius bill solaria hac com the following code is from the starbase hp manual all coordinates noralised at interval hsl to rgb hue saturation luminosity red green blue float hue saturation luminosity input in hsl float red green blue output in rgb float frac lx ly lz temporaries hue hue frac hue int hue lx luminosity saturation ly luminosity saturation frac lz luminosity saturation frac switch int hue case case red luminosity green lz blue lx break case red ly green luminosity blue lx break case red lx green luminosity blue lz break case red lx green ly blue luminosity break case red lz green lx blue luminosity break case red luminosity green lx blue ly break rgb to hsl red green blue hue saturation luminosity define max a b c a b a b c a b a b c define min a b c a b a b c a b a b c float red green blue input in rgb float hue saturation luminosity output in hsl float x tempr tempg tempb temporary values hue saturation luminosity max red green blue x min red green blue if luminosity calculate only if necessary saturation luminosity x luminosity if saturation calculate only if necessary tempr luminosity red luminosity x tempg luminosity green luminosity x tempb luminosity blue luminosity x if red luminosity hue green x tempb tempg else if green luminosity hue blue x tempr tempb else hue red x tempg tempr hue
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh e mail ph cunixb cc columbia edu there s no such thing as a small job just small fees anon on being an architect
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons thanks kevin sahr piglet uccs edu
comp.graphics	looking for a job as a software engineer i am not sure that i am supposed to post this mail here however during the last year while i was involved in developing graphical user interface gui applications i have enjoyed being personally part of this news group wherin i got some interesting information which helped me in my work i am posting my resuming hoping that people working in my area would make time to look at it a westgate hall isu ames ia april dear prospective employer i am seeking employment as a software engineer with interests in software design and development in which i can utilize my experience in hardware c c programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking i received my bachelors of engineering be degree in electronics engineering in and a m s degree in electrical engineering in dec from iowa state university currently i am enrolled in a m s in computer engineering at iowa state university during my masters program as a research assistant since jan i have published three papers including one in the ieee transactions on magnetics these papers are a reflection of the quality of my research and my ability to learn new concepts quickly i have been involved in many projects involving software developments and have extensive experience programming in c c fortran and assembly level i am also familiar with operating systems like unix ultrix and ms dos i am familiar with motif x programming and currently as a research assistant am involved in graphical user interface gui design using the multiplatform gui toolkit xvt my experiences also include areas such as operating systems and computer networks through course work and projects i was involved in the study of the design and development of the internals of the xinu operating system i have also been involved in many tcp ip programming projects in computer networking while in college i learnt the importance of clear and concise communication i have also learned a lot about time management in my m s program i have maintained a grade average worked hours per week and have enjoyed being involved in many other extra curricular activities my software experiences along with my hardware background electronics engineering would be very helpful in my career goals as a software engineer i request that my qualifications may kindly be reviewed i would like to have an interview to discuss your employment needs and my career goals i am eager to hear from you soon sincerely s n rajesh rajsnr iastate edu resume s n rajesh work residence coover isu a westgate hall isu ames ia ames ia e mail rajsnr iastate edu objective to obtain a challenging position as a software engineer involving software design and development in which i can utilize my experience in hardware c c programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking education currently enrolled in a m s in computer engineering iowa state university ames iowa m s in electrical engineering iowa state university ames iowa dec gpa major overall thesis probability of detection pod models for eddy current nondestructive evaluation nde methods project funded by federal aviation administration faa b e in electronics engineering bangalore university bangalore india jan publications s n rajesh l udpa and s s udpa numerical model based approach for estimating probability of detection in nde applications ieee transactions on magnetics vol no march s n rajesh l udpa and s s udpa estimation of eddy current probability of detection using d finite element model presented at the th annual review of progress in quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance san diego california jul s n rajesh l udpa s s udpa and n nakagawa probability of detection models for eddy current nde methods presented at the th annual review of progress in quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance brunswick me jul relevant implemention of operating systems electronic devices and circuits course computer network architecture pulse and digital circuits work advanced computer communications artificial neural networks introduction to supercomputing pattern recognition microprocessors and computer digital image processing organization digital signal processing computer technology and integrated circuits and design programming projects implementation of the fork system call on the xinu operating system also involved in the implementation of a cpu scheduling algorithm taking into consideration the aging of processes this project involved the study of the design and development of the internals of the xinu operating system design and development of an interrupt driven keyboard driver this project involved a thorough understanding of device drivers design and development of a unix like tree structured directory which allows the creation of subdirectories and organization of files accordingly this project included the implementation of routines such as mkdir rmdir cd ls and rm to support the directory structure analysis of methods of congestion control in computer networks implementation of the bellman ford routing algorithm for a distributed network the communication between network nodes was based on udp this project involved programming in c simulation of the various digital logic functional units starting from the basic gates to registers counters adders multipliers arithmetic logic unit alu and so on the project involved extensive c programming in an unix environment work research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames experience ia aug present work involves development of applications using graphical user interface gui toolkits familiar with programming in a motif x environment more recent work involves development of multiplatform gui applications in c using the portable gui toolkit xvt this project is supported by nist national institute of standards and technology research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames ia jan aug work involved developing software for modeling electromagnetic nde techniques such as the eddy current method it also involved optimization of the code on the parallel computer cray ymp this project was supported by faa and involved working in close contact with the aircraft industry boeing trainee engineer indian telephone industries bangalore india work involved design and development of a microprocessor based programmable telephone dialler used in cordless telephones involved programming of a microprocessor to control the pulsing actions of the relays in a telephone circuit jan nov computer languages c c fortran assembly level skills software motif x xvt computer graphics hoops tcp ip programming image processing utilities sdrc ideas autocad operating systems unix stellix ultrix ms dos systems dec series hp and sun workstations macintosh stellar parallel systems cray ymp ibm j maspar n cube honours and iowa state university graduate college scholarship activities jan present ranked out of over students in bachelors of engineering entrance examination ensuring full scholarship from the state to pursue my bachelors s degree current member of ieee references available upon request
comp.graphics	intel s pci standard i read a mesg somewhere on genie about intel coming out with a graphics standard called pci which would supplant vesa standards is this a rumor or is there some substance to it if any of y all have heard of this standard please e mail me on how i might obtain more info thanks in advance vamilliron othello ucd edu
comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer hi there i m using pov ray on my ibm compatible at home but i would like to run some things at work on our vax computer i believe there is a version of the source code for pov ray that is vax specific but i m not sure where to find it i ve looked at the several sites where the ibmpc version of it can be found can anyone help me thanks in advance ross kummer rmit melbourne australia internet address rkummer phillip edu au no clever signoff yet too busy playing with pov ray
comp.graphics	gws anybody know where i can get graphics work shop brad utkvx utk edu
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour i suppose you don t know what about we have discussed we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit and my suggestion above works perfectly with it so far i have seen a colormap editing window in xv that is there must be a colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and i didn t tried to solve them at all because i would not make such problems to my programs in the first place gamma and color corrections are easily done to bit image as i presented there s no need make tricks from bit quantized image back to bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated ok you re writing about situation that user want edit images as bit and user want edit individual colors your questions by the way jumps off the discussion a bit my solution doesn t work because there s no colormap withing real bit image you see user see bit image going back to bit is silly about changing individual colors in bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most cases if the image is quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors to anywhere in the image xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images moreover xv is not a paint program you can only make those global changes in full bit xv changing individual colors sounds like paint program job if person have bit screen there s need for tricks to get the original bit image modified because user don t see full bit image there s need to make approximations and it is not possible to modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups if image is rasterized to select indiavidual color there could be x cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area selecting individual color is possible from that ok i don t have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such in good view and are not planned to make such not to mention bit painting program in bit screen yes again what is was wrong with xv it saved bit quantized rasterized images as bit jpegs jpeg is not designed for that also human expect that bit will be saved as bit image say person would like to crop part of the image and save it then it is expected that the image still is the same so xv were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error i have heard xv were designed first for bit images files but it were not good idea to take full bit images without making major change to the original design so even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead of bit before anybody will make a note yes i may as well make a lift where up means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes up and put a note on this design solution to the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation it doesn t solve the problem americans the lift is just an example well my text may be a bit hard reading hopefully you suggeeded to read it juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	re raw gif you can use pbm s rawtopgm to convert three raw r g b files to pgm format then you can use pgm toppm to convert the pgm files to a composite ppm file and feed this to cjpeg for compression slow and circuitous but it will work rick
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh e mail ph cunixb cc columbia edu there s no such thing as a small job just small fees anon on being an architect hei pei i can not help you directly width you problem but there may be intermediate roads to take to get to the iff i am using a converter that can take iges iif dxf iges milespec i iges milespec ii iges iif milespec i iif milespec ii iif and dxf iif is ibm iges format there may be converters out there that can handle iges to iff hope this was to any help by the way the converter is part of the iges processor package from ibm and it runs on rs aix best regard finn chr lundbo ibm bergen environmental sciences solutions centre e mail finn bsc no
comp.graphics	xv for dos what s the problem i downloaded the file xv exe zip from the site someone posted here it contained the files cjpeg exe djpeg exe xv exe when i tried to run it it just said couldn t run go exe and halts what s the matter with this are there some files missing in the zip what is go exe any help appreciated bye wolfram wolfram kresse e mail wolfram rbg informatik th darmstadt de meeneemeeneemeenee cu l r le g r i yes that s right tweeky u
comp.graphics	alpha kubota graphic vs sgi who has experience with porting a gl program to an alpha apx workstation with kubota s denali d graphic is there any problems is the real graphic performance like a sgi r indigo xs z juergen fechter universitaet tuebingen wsi gris office auf der morgenstelle c fax w tuebingen germany email fechter gris informatik uni tuebingen de
comp.graphics	re tiff complexity in article aa enet gw pa dec com you write anyone who thinks that tiff is too complex hasn t dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml or any one of a number of other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others well yeah but unlike tiff they all do substantially more than encode rectangular bitmaps and the others are hardly trouble free i hear that it is quite common for cgm implementations not to interoperate the annoying thing about tiff is that is that along with the useful options there are stupid options the most egregious example is that rather than picking a byte order and bit order and using it consistently in all tiff files byte and bit order are options and all tiff readers on all machines no matter what their natural byte order have to be prepared to do byte swapping there are four slightly different fax formats again any one of them would have been adequate rgb images can be stored by pixel or by component complexity without function etc etc i also note that the tiff doc says that aldus experiments show that lzw reliably compresses as well or better than any of the fax formats suggesting that none of the fax formats are really useful what s worse a lot of the formats aren t even implemented very well e g lzw limits code words to bits while or bits would have provided substantially better compression and the lzw method compresses bytes rather than pixels but the absolute worst thing about tiff is that any vendor can register proprietary tiff codes and formats without even publicly documenting them this means that there is no way to write a tiff reader that can reliably read all incoming tiff files some standard regards john levine johnl iecc cambridge ma us spdcc ima world iecc johnl
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article apr labtam labtam oz au graeme labtam labtam oz a u graeme gill writes in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writ es hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x xli xloadimage or imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib xv shareware supports bit displays and has lots of other improvements over earlier versions definitely worth checking out also at export jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university e mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	looking for brain in cad jasen mabus rpi student i am looking for a hman brain in any cad dxf cad iges cgm etc or picture gif jpg ras etc format for an animation demonstration if any has or knows of a location please reply by e mail to mabusj rpi edu thank you in advance jasen mabus
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files hello there a week ago a guy asked what a sco file was well i researched a bit and foundout that it is just another rix file sci files are x files and sco files are x files alle the other formats x x are also called something like sc character regards rued
comp.graphics	re real d in article vall dsv su se matt dah dsv su se mattias dahlberg writes rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol fi wrote earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me yes it looks like very good indeed however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it nope did i not hear that there maybe some ports of real d version in the pipeline somewhere possibly unix not too sure though please put me straight gary work serc daresbury lab internet g coulter daresbury ac uk uni staffordshire university hardware a a regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	re tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly in article rb k l v neuro usc edu merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an pexlib and phigs as it comes from mit with pex and as is explained in the phigs programming manual are just different api s for the pex protocol which is an extension to the x protocol so it depends on you what you go to use advantage of phigs is the protability to other platforms ibm graphigs sunphigs and the standardized structuring of the d objects advantage of pexlib is the sometimes faster and easier programming for immediate mode graphics because pex is not an exactly mapping of phigs to a prortocol o o ooo ooo roland holzapfel computer email wilhelminenstrasse graphics holzapfe igd fhg de darmstadt center phone germany zgdv this space intentionally left blank
comp.graphics	re intel s pci standard vamilliron yes intel s pci is another local bus standard which can be used for graphics although i believe local buses can be used for other things too as far as i know though pci local bus would compete with vesa local bus not the vesa graphics standard but others more enlightened might be able to shed more light on this matter
comp.graphics	wanted shareware graphics display program for dos i need a graphics display program that can take as a parameter the name of the file to be displayed then just display that image and then quit all of the other graphics display programs come up with a menu first or some other silliness this program is going to be run from within another program i have lots of memory and vga color any graphics format will do has anyone heard of such a beast keith keith knudsen notre dame in
comp.graphics	th scia invitation to the th scia the th scandinavian conference on image analysis will be arranged by the norwegian society for image processing and pattern recognition nobim and sponsored by the international association for pattern recognition iapr the conference will be held in tromsoe from th th may tromsoe located at latitude degrees n is northern norway s centre for administration and education about the programme the scientific programme runs over four days and includes invited speakers sessions in three parallel tracks with contributed papers and poster sessions with contributions the conference covers the following topics image processing and analysis pattern recognition computer vision parallel algorithms and architectures neural nets matching methods image compression remote sensing medical and biological applications industrial applications conference language the official language of the conference is english invited talks and speakers segmentation of range images via data fusion and morphological watersheds professor ralph gonzalez university of tennessee knoxville object recognition using range images professor anil k jain michigan state university experiments in mobile robot navigation and range imaging dr judd jones oak ridge national laboratory image compression professor tor ramstad university of trondheim combining evidence in dictionary based probabilistic relaxation professor j kittler university of surrey matching methods professor a sanfeliu polytechnic university of catalonia workshop in connection with the conference a workshop on contextual methods in pattern recognition will be arranged on monday th by iapr tc for further information concerning the workshop contact torfinn taxt chairman tc univ of bergen n bergen norway phone fax e mail torfinn taxt cc uib no registration information the registration fee is nok the fee covers proceedings entrance to all oral and poster sessions exhibition lunches and coffee breaks get together party reception and banquet fees for accompanying persons are presented in the registration form all payments must be made payable in norwegian kroner nok by swift to xiannokktrm or bank giro service at bank account sas conference forut christiania bank og kreditkasse private cheques will not be accepted or by the following credit cards visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee of nok please remember to state scia and your name on all money transfers registration and information the conference secretariat will be available all four days of the conference for registration and information may th in the sas hotel may th th at the university exhibition an exhibition of relevant literature will be arranged publishers are invited to exhibit their products a visit to local companies and institutions involved in the field mostly remote sensing will be arranged accommodation reservation for hotel accommodation can be made on the registration form the scia conference secretariat at sas luftreisebyraa att bodil lauritsen will provide hotel accommodation for the participants social events monday may th get together party included in the conference fee for delegates nok for accompanying persons tuesday may th fishing trip the tour will last for hours and hopefully the midnight sun will visit us on board the boat there will be music food and drink by choice we bring fishing rods and it will be possible to have our own fish prepared on board nok spouse programme visit by cable car to storsteinen meters above sea level visit to the arctic cathedral and visit to tromsoe museum nok wednesday may th due to the cancellation of the svalbard flight we will arrange a visit to the beerhall nok including beer and food spouse programme visit to a fishfarm in the surroundings of tromsoe nok thursday may th banquet included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying persons nok spouse programme visit to the northern lights planetarium and the polar museum nok the spouse programs need a minimum of participants to be arranged post conference tours with visit to lyngen or finnmark and norh cape will also be arranged for more information about the social program and the post conference tours see the registration form and information included with the registration form weather and dress the weather in tromsoe in late may can be everything from hour sunshine with a maximum temperature of degrees celsius to snowstorms with temperatures below freezing it is therefore recommended to bring some warmer clothes local information the population is approximately in tromsoe you can take part in many activities from mountaineering in the midnight sun to late night fun in international restaurants and bars an afternoon local beer in the beerhall of the world s northernmost brewery is also recommended the th scandinavian conference on image analysis scia will be held at the university campus at the world s northernmost university there will be conference buses going to the campus from within walking distances of all the hotels more detailed information about the locations and transport will be available at the conference hotels travel information tromsoe airport at langnes is only minutes drive from the centre of tromsoe the travelling distance from oslo is hr minutes sas conference support tromsoe offers airticket services for the conference in addition to all standard terms full and reduced fare tickets from europe and overseas reduced fares require that you stay in scandinavia the night between saturday and sunday we can offer additional conference fares for sas flights from sas destinations within scandinavia and reduced fares on norwegian domestic flights if you want to make use of this service please contact bodil lauritsen at the conference secretariat conference secretariat sas luftreisebyraa tromsoe att bodil lauritsen p o box n tromsoe norway phone fax note that reduced airticket fares can not be obtained on flights to scandinavia if you don t stay the night between saturday and sunday in front of or after the conference on the other hand you don t have to stay that night in tromso to obtain reduced fares within scandinavia sas flights cut here registration form the th scandinavian conference on image analysis tromso norway may th th please use block letters or type and fill in one form for each parti cipant completed registration form for accompanying person is to be attached to the registration form of the delegate mr mrs first name and surname company institution title mailing address postal code country telephone telefax delegate accompanying person please tick for right category workshop on contextual methods in pattern recognition monday may th conference fee delegates nok social events please tick for participating get together party monday th included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying person nok spouse programme tuesday may th nok spouse programme wednesday may th nok spouse programme thursday may th nok boat trip tuesday may th nok banquet thursday may th included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying person nok visit to the beerhall wednesday may th nok post conference tour lyngen nok post conference tour finnmark north cape nok we need a minimum number of participants to accomplish these tours total amount for my participation nok payment payment can be made by swift to xiannokktrm or bank giro service at bank account sas conference forut christiania bank og kreditkasse gronnegt n tromso norway private cheques will not be accepted or by credit card visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express account number expiration date signature please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee of nok please remember to state scia and your name on all money transfers accomodation payment to be made upon arrival weekend friday sunday deadline for cancellation of the hotel room hours before arrival if you would like us to book your accomodation in tromso please fill in date of arrival date of departure sas royal hotel single a double a weekend weekend grand nordic hotel single a double a weekend weekend with home hotel single a double a saga hotel single a double a polar hotel single a double a weekend weekend tromso hotel single a double a weekend weekend skipperhuset pension single a double a triple a hotel nord single a double a triple a private accomodation single a double a i will arrange accomodation on my own if my first choice is not available i wish to stay at airtickets sas conference support tromso offers airticket services for the conference in addition to all standard terms full and reduced fare tickets from europe and overseas reduced fares require that you stay in scandinavia the night between saturday and sunday we can offer additional conference fares for sas flights from sas destinations within scandinavia and reduced fares on norwegian domestic flights if you want to make use of this service please fill in the following point of departure and return date of departure date of return i will arrange airtickets on my own please tick for further information please contact kjell arild hogda scia local chair forut information technology ltd n tromso norway telephone telefax e mail scia conan uit no please forward this registration form to sas luftreisebyra tromso att bodil lauritsen p o box n tromso norway telephone telefax date and signature
comp.graphics	re pov ray for vax computer get the generic version for unix and vms and build it imho a vms com file to build it is supplied as the distribution comes as tar z you should either have uncompress and tar on vms or a unix flavoured machine handy usually you won t find this on ibm pc specific archives but on the better ones o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re xv problems oops what the hell a crosspost is this have a look onto xv before saying anything more about it s power o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	picture ascii conversion i was wondering if anyone has ever seen heard of a utility that converts any type of image format gif tiff pcx bmp jpeg etc to an ascii representation i have seen some very sophiticated art in ascii format but never was i able to find the author or any program that may have converted the data from a picture format any help or leads would be great thanks in advance danny dunlavy ddunlavy casbah acns nwu edu
comp.graphics	re arts letters graphics editor in comp graphics menchett dws unr edu peter j menchetti writes does anyone on this group use this program it stacks up pretty well to corel draw and since i don t have a cdrom it was the best buy maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks yes i have both arts letters and coreldraw i personally like arts letters better but there are things i like about arts letters that coreldraw doesn t do an vice versa i haven t found the perfect graphics program that does everything yet my favorite feature from coreldraw is that it imports alot of different formats arts letters does not i like the thousands of clipart available with arts letters however i do find looking them up in a book and referencing them by number to be annoying one of my major problems is that there isn t any programs available on the market for the artistically deprived betty harvey harvey oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin adp networking and communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code center bethesda md dtmb cd nswc fax
comp.graphics	software development libs for old targa boards i am revamping some computer aided visual inspection systems which use the old at t targa board set cards to display images from a color ccd camera to a color monitor providing the option to overlay text or a crosshair no image capture or manipulation is performed just display i would like to know if there is still a source for development libraries which would allow me to embed commands in my own software to enable the camera draw crosshairs print text etc i ll be glad to pay if they are commercially available e mail if possible joe ryburn cim manager intergraph corporation manufacturing integration huntsville al
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement olson anchor esd sgi com dave olson writes but surely you don t expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period what s sort of interesting about this whole thread is just how much it has in common with similar threads in groups dealing with other vendor s hardware i currently deal basically with hardware from vendors apple dec and sgi and thus tend to monitor the groups about those vendor s hardware currently it seems like sgi customers are pissed at sgi about dropping support for the personal iris dec customers are pissed at dec for dropping mips support in favor of the new alpha boxes and apple customers seem to get pissed every time a new mac is introduced that s faster and cheaper than the one they just bought when i used to be a sun customer years ago i remember people being pissed at sun for leaving their and x customers out in the cold when sparc came along what s really interesting is that from what i can tell the mis folks in the basement with their es don t seem to be pissed at ibm why i have no idea either ibm really does take care of their customers better or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors do roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.graphics	lcd vga display please help i have an ibm compatible notebook computer with an lcd vga screen while i was working with it this morning the screen started to flicker a little which i thought was odd since i do use a surge protector for my computer and all peripherals it only did this for a second and then stopped i left the room for several minutes and when i returned the screen was completely dim not blank but very very dim the contrast slider still worked so that i could adjust it to where i could faintly make out what was on the screen but the brightness slider had absolutely no effect i was plugged in at the time i e not using the battery but i still tried switching the battery changing the power saver features etc etc all to no avail has anyone else experienced anything like this if this just means that i need to replace the screen then i guess i ll have to but i thought that the death of my lcd screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually happened i didn t want to take it in to be repaired before i asked on the net about this because i already know what they ll say yep you gotta have this replaced and it s gonna cost you i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display oh i guess i ought to give specifics here the brand is compudyne is this a reputable company it s a sx mhz i forget the model number exactly and i was too ticked off to write it down before coming in to work today if anyone can help me please give me any advice you might have i m not opposed to having it replaced but i d rather not if it s not absolutely necessary if you wouldn t mind please e mail me at mike mik uky edu but if you d rather post i ll be checking back here in a couple of days btw if the answer to this question is already in a faq somewhere feel free to flame away but i would ask that you also include the location and name of the faq if you don t mind thanks in advance for any help mike mattone mike mik uky edu
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in article rr c u calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes what s really interesting is that from what i can tell the mis folks in the basement with their es don t seem to be pissed at ibm why i have no idea either ibm really does take care of their customers better or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors do no mis folks have infinite budgets of death and they also get parts of their budget allocated upgrades maintenance and new purchases and a lot of ibm mainframe purchases are actually leases and so is the software basically the engineers who have tight budgets i e the coders and designers of a company bitch and moan when they drop on a sparc only to see a faster machine appear a year later mis types upgrade once every years and their costs are amortized and depreciated over a longer period and the budget office justifies the expense because they actually use the machines for accounting payroll etc now if the budget office was dependant on the engineers for some reason like payroll and accounts you d sure as hell see every engineer with a new cray on his desktop every year brian
comp.graphics	fractel trees i m working on my senior project here at uf florida the project requires fractel trees i m interested in either psuedo or real code just about anything will help perhaps some good books on the subject could help too mail will reach at quartz iriquois eel ufl edu thanks bill devore
comp.graphics	oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article rqisi rhj cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour i suppose you don t know what about we have discussed we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit and my suggestion above works perfectly with it look be consistent first you post something that seems to suggest that you see xv being an bit program as some sort of error so i post and asy it is not a bug it is meant to be like that so you post and say it is not a bug you never said it was i have misunderstood etc now you are saying we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit if you would make up your mind what you are claiming it would make the discussion a lot easier so far i have seen a colormap editing window in xv that is there must be a colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and i didn t tried to solve them at all because i would not make such problems to my programs in the first place eh sorry i don t understand what you are saying here i am aware that english is not your native language and have tried hard to fathom your meaning but this paragraph defeats me gamma and color corrections are easily done to bit image as i presented there s no need make tricks from bit quantized image back to bit image yes as i originally said global changes are easily possible but this statement contradicts what you said earlier i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated ok you re writing about situation that user want edit images as bit and user want edit individual colors your questions by the way jumps off the discussion a bit no i don t think so actually you were talking about loading a bit image into xv by quantising manipulating the colours in the colour editor then somewhow applying these changes to the bit file when you exit xv xv lets you edit individual colours where is this sudden jumping off the topic my solution doesn t work because there s no colormap withing real bit image yes i am aware there is no colourmap in a bit file you see user see bit image going back to bit is silly i do not understand what this statement is supposed to mean about changing individual colors in bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most cases if the image is quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors to anywhere in the image what are you saying xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images ah now we see thew problem first you want to extend xv to allow editing of bit previews of bit images then i point out problems with this now you are saying there is no problem because you personally happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem moreover xv is not a paint program you can only make those global changes not sure what you are saying here certainly one can make local changes in full bit xv changing individual colors sounds like paint program job if person have bit screen there s need for tricks to get the original bit image modified because user don t see full bit image there s need to make approximations and it is not possible to modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups if image is rasterized to select indiavidual color there could be x cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area selecting individual color is possible from that yes that is one possible approach i would find a program that took such an approach clumsy however ok i don t have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such in good view and are not planned to make such not to mention bit painting program in bit screen well here we agree you have not thought it through very much you don t seem to have a consistent point to make and contradict yourself from one post to the next ok we all have off days perhaps you should step back and think this one through yes again what is was wrong with xv it saved bit quantized rasterized images as bit jpegs jpeg is not designed for that as i said in the last post jpeg is a compression algorithm it is a way of saving disk space by trading off quality against compression i fail to see what the problem is you have not proposed any workable alternatives also human expect that bit will be saved as bit image speak for yourself you are the only person i have met or spoken to who having quantised a bit image down to bits expects this process to somehow reverse when the file is saved keeping all modificvations that heve been made to the bit image palette perhaps that is why you yused the singular say person would like to crop part of the image and save it then it is expected that the image still is the same look next time you import a bit image into xv look carefully at the main control panel it tells you how many colours have been allocated to the bit image xv makes it abundantly clear that you are not editing the original bit file you are the only person who claims this is confusing so xv were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error is a design error the same as a bug read my lips xv is a program for viewing and modifying bit images it lets you import other images it shows i would say a good deal of thought about the human interface and everyone else seems to use it happily for the purpose it was designed for it makes no false claims i have heard xv were designed first for bit images files but it were not good idea to take full bit images without making major change to the original design if you would come up with a solid logical well argued and lucid description of precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free to post them so far you have not done so so even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead of bit argh after all this a comment like that very easily ok go ahead and code it if it is so easy or alternatively look up the terms import and non reversible transformation before anybody will make a note yes i may as well make a lift where up means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes up and put a note on this design solution to the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation it doesn t solve the problem americans the lift is just an example i think this is a bit of an exageration what you are actually saying is you got into a lift elevator if you are in the states and mistakenly pressed the down button to go up everyone else had no problem now you are trying to sue the manufacturer well my text may be a bit hard reading you bet hopefully you suggeeded to read it mostly leaving aside the language issue however it betrays some very wooly thinking as you yourself admit which is the same in any language go think some more chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	drivers for diamond viper card i ve been away for a couple of weeks and have become out of touch with the latest information on the diamond viper card does anyone know if diamond has come out with any vesa driver updates lately also i was wondering what the latest windows driver version is up to now thanks in advance dan daniel t hotopp internet hotopp ami bwi wec com antenna microwave integration w vax tron hotopp ami westinghouse electric corp voice
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display my toshiba t lcd cga died in months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when it died it died instantly and completely
comp.graphics	surface contour plot ultrix x r to plot surfaces and contour plots from a set of x y z i would really appreciate any hint on the name of such a plotting program and where to find it thanks for your help
comp.graphics	full color image editor for sgi workstations i am happy to announce the first public release of the bit program an interactive full color image viewer and editor based on sgi gl besides typical touchup tasks such as crop rotate smooth etc bit offers some unique features not available in similar programs such as text and vector support and the separation of text and image the following is the relevant sections from the man page pre release of may bit l name bit bitmap image touchup for sgi workstations description bit is an interactive full color image viewer and editor based on silicon graphics gl as a full color program bit handles images of both bits and color index in a natural and efficient manner as an image viewer bit allows list of images to be displayed in their original type bits or color index in any order and in any of the many built in styles of display you can walk up and down the list using mouse and keyboard or you can let bit do the walk for you the slideshow with the pan and zoom features large images can be viewed in full without being limited by the window or screen size as an image editor bit performs a large number of image editing and processing tasks accurately and efficiently it keeps information loss at any stage of the editing process at an absolute minimum by performing subpixel sampling automatically while conserving the input image type whenever possible to avoid unnecessary promotion and or quantization of input images you can also cut a piece of an image and paste it into another in addition arbitrarily colored and sized text and simple geometric figures can be rendered on top of an image for annotation with the option to make them part of the bitmap or output separately to take advantage of the higher printer resolutions e g postscript bit can also be used as a graphical user interface to many existing image processing programs by defining external bindings which in essence turn command line oriented programs into bit subfunctions and can be accessed by a press of a button and best of all the processed image will be read back and displayed immediately convolution using exter nally defined matrices of arbitrary order can be performed dynamically giving great flexibility in processing an image features bit performs all of its image manipulations interactively with a continuous progress report and once the processing is complete the processed image will be displayed current features include o rotates an image by an arbitrary angle with the option of anti aliasing and filling the rotated out region with an arbitrary color o scales an image by arbitrary factors in x and or y directions with the option of subpixel sampling o renders text of arbitrary color size or orientation on top of an image with the option of rendering directly into the raster or saving the text and raster separately such as into a postscript file to take advantage of a higher printer resolution besides normal text strings many predefined special symbols can be input conveniently as in tex e g alpha small beta produces greek alphabet alpha followed by a slightly smaller greek alphabet beta o presents graphically the histogram of an image o performs arbitrary to pixel transformation the transformation function can be specified interactively and can be of arbitrary forms further the transformation can be applied to rgb channels separately or simultaneously and to the entire image or a portion of it many difficult tasks such as thresholding can be accomplished rather easily by to transformation in combination with the avai lability of graphical histograms of the image o places simple geometric figures sgfs e g arrows circles trian gles etc of arbitrary color size and orientation into an image at arbitrary locations addressed either in absolute pixels or in some user definable coordinate system units with the option of rendering directly into the raster or save the sgfs and raster separately e g postscript file all sgfs can be scaled in x and y directions independently or simultaneously this is how to get an ellipse from a circle o performs edge detection in combination with image histograms and to transformation very accurate result can be obtained o performs histogram equalization o performs convolution with externally defined square matrices of arbitrary order o crops a rectangular portion of an image o cuts and pastes across images o magnifies any portion of an image by any amount o displays a list of images in sequence with a user specifiable pause interval between images slideshow o measures rgb intensities of a pixel at any location or all pixels along an arbitrary line with the result presented as rgb intensities or as an intensity vs distance plot o performs image type conversions o converts image formats o smoothes an image special convolution o filters an image by external programs and read the filtered image back and display it o modify an individual pixel s rgb values o performs fft on the entire image or a portion of it and display the resulting power spectra o spray and brush paint in full color unavailable in this pre release supported formats o iris rgb native to sgi iris o jpeg jfif format o compuserv gif o pnm portable any map including ppm pgm and pbm o xbm x window bitmap o tiff o postscript write only hardware requirements any sgi workstation that supports rgbmode including indigoes where to get it anonymous ftp to monte svec uh edu pub bit bitxxx tar z where xxx is the version number current version is read src readme for installation instructions after unpacking acknowledgement jpeg support is based on the independent jpeg groups s library version forms library developed by mark overmars is used for gui both jpeg and forms library are included in this release bit is the program you will ever need to view and annotate images the built in editing features will satisfy most of your editing needs in addition the external filter and dynamical kernel will utilize any program you already have so try it and you will like it as always any comments bug reports are welcome
comp.graphics	stop this argument xv is bit was re oh make up your stop stop stop stop this argument is getting silly xv now handles bit images without quantizing them all these arguments are moot null and void please stop quibbling about a now obsolete version of the program besides you can now generate tons of verbiage about the new shareware licensing it uses instead mike mike ressler infrared photon jockey ressler cougar jpl nasa gov less science by dead guys ms dos ms dos windoze dr dos os linux x finally getting something useful done with my pet
comp.graphics	giant software yardsale software retail sale price graphics corel draw aldus photo styler image in color photo finish of these image in scan paint image in full pack picture publisher image prep snap pro images inc publisher s paintbrush deluxe paint enchance softtype font workshop vista pro optibase workshop gfa cad utilities x tree gold for win tnt anti virus salvation amish utilities multimedia smart text music clips audio tracks spinnaker plus mac spinnaker plus pc ask me multi media make your point madison ave interface mac mr sound effects music bytes tempra show storyboard plus programming m s windows dev kit full windows maker pro ms c top speed modula business the art of negotiating telemagic full impact mac approach database ascend games nfl pro league football eco saurus hardware modem baud assorted joysticks willows vga tv amiga trac ball misc the wedding planner software yard sale fri sat sun to e mail pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu location nunneley rd paradise ca phone terms cash check charge visa or mc accepted
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk lilley v cgu mcc ac uk chris lilley writes re a true bit xv if you would come up with a solid logical well argued and lucid description of precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free to post them don t mind if i do as someone who would love to see xv go to bit this would be plenty for me a xv can load a bit image and display it in all it s bit glory on bit x displays b all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported on bit images how hard would this be ken fishkin fishkin xerox com
comp.graphics	re anyone know use rayshade out there fineman stein u washington edu twixt your toes writes i m using rayshade on the u w computers here and i d like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas i could post uuencoded gifs here or ray code if anyone s interested i m having trouble coming up with colors that are metallic i e brass steel from the rgb values sorry i m not a rayshade user but hey it looks like this group could use some traffic my guess is that metallic isn t a color in the rgb sense rather it s a matter of how the surface reflects light i m not sure what property metallic materials have that makes them recognizable as such but i m pretty sure any color material can look metallic
comp.graphics	d spline fit does anyone out there know of a site that might have a d spline fit routine useful for interpolation thanks for any help craig morioka craig cognet ucla edu
comp.graphics	what is do someone please fill me in on what do thanks bh
comp.graphics	re sci files and sco files in article apr daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes hello there a week ago a guy asked what a sco file was sc character regards rued yes me why alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon co uk
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly rak crosfield co uk richard kirk writes it s the number of legs on a centipede so now you know is that the number of left legs or both left and right dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign kz o project leader recognition products kz o n ary noca ca na internet dbushong wang com
comp.graphics	looking for info on quadratic spline to bezier conversion hi i am looking for an algorithm or pointers to any papers on how to convert quadratic splines to cubic splines or beizeirs if source is available in the public domain please let me know thanks very much ks krishnan seetharaman e mail kseethar cs ulowell edu phone w snail mail department of computer science umass lowell lowell ma
comp.graphics	mode h does anyone know how to access and or display multiple pages in mode h while still maintaining the byte per pixel memory organization examples in c or assembly would be appreciated thanks scott
comp.graphics	re viewing jpeg files there are jpeg viewers that are windows based and therefore need no hardware specific drivers beyond those provided in windows i got mine from the library of congress in connection with their online exhibit of books from the vatican library see a previous message in this newgroup about that gerald edgar gwe atc boeing com the opinions expressed in this not may not represent those of his employer
comp.graphics	re looking for hot mac d anim software in c zd mxp news udel edu stern brahms udel edu garland stern writes i am interested in finding d animation programs for the mac i am especially interested in any programs that don t exist in a pc port and are so good that they would make me go buy a mac do any such exist thanks in advance howdy i think you would be interested in infini d for the mac there is no dos or windows version it s quite an amazing program some of the features bevel text timeline based animation sequencer realtime bounding box preview object linking phong shading ray tracing bounding box shading wireframe shading ghourad shading flat shading anti aliasing none low medium high environment maps quicktime support wrap a qt movie around an object procedural surfaces composed surfaces for layering surfaces alpha channel support import eps dxf and swivel d files export dxf and swivel d files spline based animation animation assistant for creating smooth movements and other stuff object morphing surfaces and bevels morph too and lots more that i can t remember right now anyway it s not as expensive as some of the other animation rendering packages i think you can get it for around from macwarehouse they also have educational discounts well hope that helps a bit see ya brendan duddridge internet umduddr ccu umanitoba ca america online brendand
comp.graphics	re acm siggraph and acm in general in article apr koko csustan edu rsc altair csustan edu steve cunningham writes and no siggraph has not skipped town we re preparing the best siggraph conference yet speaking of siggraph i just went through the ordeal of my annual registration for siggraph and re upping of membership in the acm last night and was i ever grossed out the new prices for membership are almost highway robbery for example siggraph basic fee went from last year to this year for the same thing a increase those facile enough to arrange a trip to the annual conference could reduce this to by selecting siggraph lite which means siggraph is charging an additional or so for the proceedings and the art show catalog essentially toplas went up in cost way outstripping the current inflation rate basic sigchi fees remainded the same but whereas before sigchi membership included uist and human factors conferences proceedings these are now an extra cost option bundling that back into the basic rate equivalent services have gone up in cost sigois membership cost has up but they ve also split out the computer supported cooperative work conference proceedings that used to be included with membership adding that cost back in means this sig also has doubled its membership fee what really galls me is that the acm sent out brochures a couple months ago touting their new approach to providing member services and tried to make it sound like they were offering new services but with the exception of a couple like siggraph all the plus services appear to be just splitting the costs into smaller piles so that they don t look so big but their recommended changes to my membership would have me paying more than last year for a increase in services measured by cost not by value and curiously a inflation rate on the publications i got last year is anyone out there as galled by this extortion as i am robert reed home animation ltd robert slipknot rain com first court west linn or shooting yourself in the foot in various languages and systems motif you spend days writing a uil description of your foot the trajectory the bullet and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun when you finally get around to pulling the trigger the gun jams
comp.graphics	re corel draw or harvard draw larry landwehr larry ducktales med ge com wrote my wife wants to publish a newsletter she s no artist so she intends to use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box around it etc we have mspublisher for manipulating text but it is not suitable for doing much with graphics so she needs a more specialised tool right now she s looking at corel draw and harvard draw there seem to be more books in the stores on corel than on harvard so she s inclined to go with corel on the basis of popularity can anyone give us an informed opinion on which package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative available if this is a faq please withhold the flames and just send the location of the faq document thanks go with coreldraw pcmag just did a review a couple of issues ago and adobe illustrator and coreldraw were picked as the best three ps s is it ok to use clip art from harvard draw or whatever for commercial purposes other two deleted as far as i know it s okay you d have to read the licence agreement that comes with the package to be sure tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	company info for graphics software within the next several months i ll be looking for a job in computer graphics software i m in need of info on graphics software companies i ve checked the faq the resource list and siggraph org haven t found anything the last computer graphics career handbook that i m aware of was published in it has a list of companies in it but no tremendously specific information on any of them can people please steer me towards more current and in depth informational resources thanks i ll post a summary if there s interest brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.graphics	gif to targa krzysztof muchorowski was asking about gif to tga conversion so that he could use dta to convert the tga files to fli animation files krzysztof update your copy of dta to a more recent release the current is g later versions of dta can read gif files dkm
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver some time ago about month there was a bit of discussion about a universal vesa driver for bit cards it was in the file uvesa zip well i can t find it does anyone know where it is gorilla something something au and what sort of cards it works for also would it be pushing my luck to ask for someone to post it to some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia
comp.graphics	re message for cgcad bart inescn pt sunil gupta cs ssg brunel ac uk wrote i cant get through to the author of rtrace his site is inaccessible can he upload the new version somewhere else please problem solved its on wuarchive graphics graphics ray rtrace why does it seg fault so often
comp.graphics	re real d i heard a friend who just return from nab from las vegas confirm that realsoft will be releasing a windows version of real d this summer he was told that the rendering speed on the dx isn t as fast as a however he was also told that they are switching from microsoft c to watcom to gain more speed for people who is looking for a powerful d animation software for pc the wait shouldn t be too long real d is absolutely the most powerful and flexible d package out there that sells for less than p s i heard a indigo version is also under development
comp.graphics	source to create fli or flc does anyone know if the source is available to create fli or flc animations i would ideally like dll s for windows but would settle for c source i ve heard they might be available on amiga forums somewhere the libraries currently distributed by autodesk aawin aaplay do not have fli creation capability only playback any pointers would be appreciated thanks andrew hudson abh genesis nred ma us
comp.graphics	video speed i am using an ibm dx with eisa and local bus and i need to get a local bus video card the only hitch is that i need one that will allow me to do the fastest anims or flics from ram i have megs of ram in meg simms i am using d studio from autodesk and imagine from impulse they both write out in the flc format so does anyone know what would be the best card for showing fast anims from ram ie like the orchid diamond stealth viper ati etc any help would be appreciated i am trying to circumvent the single frame route email me at trb ra msstate edu or just post back up here thanks
comp.graphics	re what has happened to dkb l trearn hi david k drum writes listserv told me that the list doesn t exist so i got a global list of groups from the listserv and nothing i grepped every string i could think of if frank ville saari andre beck or anyone else who s a regular on dkb l can tell me what is going on please do i just sent a mail to turgut kalfaoglu sp the maintainer of the list and asked him what s going on if the list is for whatever reason really dead we might have to put up a list ourselves but for now i want to wait for his answer frank ps and i just thought this would be just another period of silence
comp.graphics	help quicktime system problem i am unable to run quicktime on my iivx running system and i don t know why if there is a better group to post this to please let me know quicktime works fine but when i try to run a movie in any application that supports it like simple player canvas or word i get the message sorry a system error occurred application unimplemented trap continue restart i press continue and get the application unknown has unexpectedly quit because an error of type occurred substitute simple player or canvas or word for application and the messages are always the same if i restart with quicktime i have no problems any suggestions i am at a loss thanks in advance oh yah please email me as i don t check the newsgroups very often dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for mac something i could hopefully import into a d program like swivel or stratavision i know infini d has built in capabilities but i don t have access to infini d i downloaded two programs from umich in graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system i think they were black and white anyway please email me if you know of anything as i don t check the newsgroups very often thanks in advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic go a great many computer programmers read dr dobb s journal in a recent issue there was a paragraph in an article that pained me greatly to read it said there s nothing wrong if microsoft setting the standards for the computer industry the industry needs an ibm for the s where has the hacker ethic gone not the cracker ethic which is something entirely different and bad but the hacker ethic which tells us to value the free distribution of information and yield to the hands on imperative why is it that people and corporations like bill gates ibm and intel are able to have a virtual dead lock on the computer industry why is it that if a person like myself posts messages to usenet on how to get into the little nooks crannies and idiosyncrasies of a computer system they are not given any useful information by those who know just a badmouthing or are completely ignored why is it that people like steve jobs have to abandon their efforts to make truly innovative products i ask those of you who call yourselves hackers why is this and further how can you let it go on it is a fact that the computer industry has changed the world and shall continue to do so for a long time to come it has allowed the propagation of information in a volume unheard of even twenty years ago and has made this world even smaller than it was before i shudder to think what that world will be like if the corporations are allowed to have their way perpetuating more drivel like the windows and the ibm product line on the computer using public that is not to say i am against business per se people who profit off of innovative intelligent creative designs do not bother me in fact i applaud it that is the american way but those who manage to sell kludgy uncreative systems to the public and profit off of them are the ones who are the problem and unfortunately because they have enough money to make up for blunt stupidity they can keep doing it for a very long time i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry i await with interest what will probably be a resounding silence pstlb acad alaska edu revenge is a dish best served cold szechuan death khan singh star trek ii the wrath of khan
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display mike mattone mike nx mik uky edu wrote has anyone else experienced anything like this if this just means that i need to replace the screen then i guess i ll have to but i thought that the death of my lcd screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually happened i didn t want to take it in to be repaired before i asked on the net about this because i already know what they ll say yep you gotta have this replaced and it s gonna cost you i ve only had the computer for about months only that s a long time echoing above posting the way the market is going nowadays your machine s obsolete two weeks before you buy it sounds like you ll have to sink some money into it for repair but that s sometimes necessary for equipment is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display i think months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable if you had bought a compaq or toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong but that s a moot point perhaps sandy santra trevor netcom com berkeley california trevor well sf ca us
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display in article c bab llt vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display my toshiba t lcd cga died in months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when it died it died instantly and completely i worked in support for a while at a company and we had problems with several toshiba s in a short space of time they were all around years old some screens went completely as above others were just dodgy this happened to about or out of maybe they were fairly reliable up to then and i don t think it was a special problem with tosh s no link to the company so i would think that months may not be unreasonable just unlucky regards kate kate kingman cstxqbe dcs warwick ac uk i leave the typos to the tall blonde esudb csv warwick ac uk occupy all the bored people out there
comp.graphics	creating fli flc animation files i am looking for a means to add fli and flc animation creation to a windows application i was hoping for something along the lines of aawin or aaplay by autodesk but for the creation of these delta compressed animations i have flilib but this seems to be coded for the large memory model of dos with turbo c ideally i would like a dll or medium model object library but would settle for anything really i ve seen other windows apps with fli flc creation did they hack the flilib code into submission any pointers would be appreciated please send mail directly to me and i will summarize the results if there is interest andrew hudson abh genesis nred ma us
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu writes i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry how about the gnu people handing out very good free software i ve also distributed two decent sized programs myself the go player fumiko at ftp u washington edu and the genetic neural network programmer cerebrum somewhere out there i ve only had time to write these programs because of scholarships and grants the intended benefit to society or a loophole in the system peter dudey kyu lisp subguru order of the golden parentheses finger reformed church of james eric the half a bee dipped in curry me a shadowy flight into the dangerous world of a man who does not exist please mail me plastic spaceships state st c salem or
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
comp.graphics	avs presentation university of toronto instructional and research computing is sponsoring a technical presentation on visualization software a d v a n c e d v i s u a l s y s t e m s a v s s o f t w a r e pm pm thursday may sandford fleming building room advanced visual systems will present this technical seminar on avs the world s leading visualization software package avs is a point and click module driven easy to use product that produces full color two or three dimensional rendered scenes for interactive observation it is supported on all current unix risc platforms from sun sgi ibm h p dg and dec it also runs under dec vms avs is in its fourth year on the street and is very mature all fields of science engineering medicine and even business applications now use avs this seminar will focus on its many features in technical detail during a half hour slide presentation following a question period there will be a live demonstration using a sun sparcstation in addition a new avs program called campus will be introduced at this meeting also discussed will be the international avs center which provides an on line repository of over graphics modules at the north carolina supercomputer center in raliegh nc avs has imbedded tools to write one s own customized modules should these not be available with avs or from avs international s p e a k e r s the scheduled speaker for this presentation is mr paul ecklund of ecklund associates the distributor of avs in canada t h i s p r e s e n t a t i o n i s o p e n t o t h e p u b l i c
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress work what else congress
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images ah now we see thew problem first you want to extend xv to allow editing of bit previews of bit images then i point out problems with this now you are saying there is no problem because you personally happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem see previous article on this debate for the rests i can see xv agree with my view in cases you don t even i say my personal opinion as above it doesn t mean that it is not most obvious thing please if you use my previous writings as contradicting argument please do read them you have not saw them at all you just refered to text from which i wrote something and you make hard decisions from that without reading what exactly i have written it is really hard read when one writes a reply line by line method and don t understand include previously written material with the new sentences to give them meaning you seem to be one such you also start replying to my articles even you don t understand what is going on you ask me repeatedly to decsribe my views what were wrong with xv even i posted them within the article you did reply to believe me it is not nice to get flamed specially when i know that you have not read my article carefully in the first place xv and jpeg faq and users i have written to agree me with the places you didn t i m sure you just didn t undertand what about i wrote we can blame my writing skills in english for that or better stop the discussion and check what new ideas xv gives i allready mailed one to bradley juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	re fractal terrain generator deb uxa cso uiuc edu daniel e bradley writes does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for mac something i could hopefully import into a d program like swivel or stratavision i know infini d has built in capabilities but i don t have access to infini d i downloaded two programs from umich in graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system i think they were black and white anyway please email me if you know of anything as i don t check the newsgroups very often thanks in advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu yes i have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces for exactly the purpose you require importing into d modelling packages be warned the data content is high and brings many packages to their knees we use it primarily for microstation but it exports dxf as well as other formats so you should be ok you can get it from my ftp mirror site in the us it is wuarchive wustl edu my stuff is located in the mirrors architec directory please ftp the readme file first paul d bourke school of architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz the university of auckland ph x private bag fax auckland new zealand paul d bourke school of architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz the university of auckland ph x private bag fax auckland new zealand
comp.graphics	direct acess to video memory hi i m looking for information on how to directly manipulate video memory i have an application that i would like to use this for because it is much faster than going through the bios i know that video memory ispart of the system area above the first k so i guess i am looking to find out exactly what section of memory it is and how it is layed out thanks regards gordon rogers gnr psuvm psu edu void signature void
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data in article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes a lot of interesting stuff about gopher deleted if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu i ve heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back could you post it again i think it s of general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu
comp.graphics	re universal vesa driver kintur scorch apana org au kingsley turner writes some time ago about month there was a bit of discussion about a universal vesa driver for bit cards it was in the file uvesa zip well i can t find it does anyone know where it is gorilla something something au and what sort of cards it works for also would it be pushing my luck to ask for someone to post it to some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia host swdsrv edvz univie ac at location pc dos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host plaza aarnet edu au location micros pc garbo pc screen file r r r apr uvesa zip location micros pc oak graphics file r r r mar uvesa zip host godzilla cgl rmit oz au location kjb mgl file rw r r mar uvesa zip host nic switch ch location mirror msdos graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip location software pc simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host ipc rvs uni hannover de location pub msdos koeln graphics egavga file rw r r apr uvesa zip host sun urz uni heidelberg de location pub msdos simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host athene uni paderborn de location pcsoft msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host compute cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl mirrors msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host rigel acs oakland edu location pub msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host pc usl edu location pub msdos video and graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host isfs kuis kyoto u ac jp location mirrors simtel msdos graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host ftp uu net location systems ibmpc msdos simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	d graphics software company info within a few months i ll be looking for a job in d computer graphics software i m in need of info on companies that do it there s nothing in any of the faq s for this group and nothing at siggraph org at least i couldn t find anything the last computer graphics career handbook was dated had info on companies but nothing specific on any of them can people please direct me towards more current and detailed sources of information i ll post a summary of sources if there s interest also could you please e mail me our news server is on the fritz thanks brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.graphics	re d graphics software company info i believe many people will be happy to have this information so please post it to the comp graphics thanks changyaw
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article b b r diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress work what else congress i was at an adobe seminar conference propaganda forum whatever you want to call it a couple months ago where they announced that display postscript was going to be included in the next release of sun s os presumably solaris sun was going to drop their development of newsprint and in return for this adobe was going to port illustrator and photoshop to sun other than the articles that appeared in the trade journals immediately after i haven t heard a peep about it i hope it s still in the works david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	need recommendations on imaging workstations i need recommendations on imaging workstations as a minimum i have the following requirements high resolution graphics black and white for display of fax images support the display of multiple simulataneous windows fax image emulation window to ibm host etc high speed network interface for image data etc mb token ring ethernet etc mouse any information experience would be appreciated thanks car
comp.graphics	re looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons o i also would like code or algorithms to do this in fact i am interested in sources for code and or algorithms that convert d graphical objects into other d graphical objects that will render into the same image i e bezier curves to b splines or splines to circular arc segments or b splines to polgons etc michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c powerhouse fidonet rr armstrong bc v e b voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	wanna scan bit colr picture my bit color dpi fladbed scanner can do the job for you gif tiff pcx bmp interested please write to me imagesyz aol com
comp.graphics	need specs for mpeg mpg file format i am looking for the specs for the mpg files that are floating around the alt binaries pictures groups on the net please lemme know where i can obtain the spec or email it to me thanks much james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re easy to translate jpeg code in article rfsqbinnc p shelley u washington edu stusoft hardy u washington edu stuart denman writes does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand i have trouble understanding the jpeg group s code that i got from an ftp site if any one can send me some good code i will appreciate it a lot thanks the problem is that the process is inherently complicated the ijg s code is pretty good if you ask me and i have watched it go through many many cycles of revision try getting a good book on the subject that will explain the algorithms specifically jpeg still image compression standard by pennebaker mitchell vnr isbn btw i presume your comment about good code wasn t meant to sound as offensive as it does david a clunie dclunie pax tpa com au
comp.graphics	ftp site for pov files i know this has been asked a million time but what was the ftp site carrying zips of full pov source files including jack zip and kettle zip i ve once been there but unfortunately lost the address i m in a little hurry with it so please e mail me at jtheinon kruuna helsinki fi thanks jarkko
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article gradyc d ep awe netcom com grady netcom com ef writes where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone and guess who s here in your place please finger xyzzy gnu ai mit edu for information or if you are a mail news only site mail xyzzy gnu ai mit edu with the subject line send finger daniel drucker n sxx xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever forever my coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	jpeg fif specification i recently got a document describing the jpeg fif jfif file format i was looking thru it but i didn t get the idea how to determine the size of a pic in pixel without decoding the whole image how do you get the height and width of a jpeg in a jfif how do you determine wether it is a color or a greyscale picture i wrote a small tool lsgif for gif that returns the filesize picture size and color resolution by analizing the header chunks the output looks like this bla gif x c i use this lsgif to create index files of my archive and since jpeg are getting more and more popular i would like to have a similar tool for jfif with an output like this bla jpg x c please respond by email because i don t read this news group very often i ll post a summary if it is useful thanx in advance larry lars larry michael mr gif if murphy s law lars itu sun ac za can go wrong it will lsmichae informatik uni erlangen de spec stud at univ of stellenbosch south afrika ham zr db bw grad stud at univ of erlangen nuremberg germany irc pit
comp.graphics	fractint on a speedstar x i m still looking for fractint drivers or a new release which supports the bit color mode of the diamond speedstar x there are some and million colros drivers but none work with the x any help would be appreciated thanks chad new in sea world of ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now is the result of the natural evolution of a successful hacker either you make money go to jail lee feldenstein sp or just fade away as oh that s uncle so and so who really likes computers what a computer hacker is and does will change as long as the definition of the word computer continues to change james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data in article c dj wl cs columbia edu olasov cs columbia edu benjamin olasov writes in article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes a lot of interesting stuff about gopher deleted if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu i ve heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back could you post it again i think it s of general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu this is a heavily edited modified version of the gopher faq intended to give people just starting with gopher enough information to get a client and jump into gopher space a complete version can be obtained as described below once you have a gopher client point it at merlot welch jhu edu and welcome to gopher space dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu common questions and answers about the internet gopher a client server protocol for making a world wide information service with many implementations posted to comp infosystems gopher comp answers and news answers every two weeks the most recent version of this faq can be gotten through gopher or via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers gopher faq those without ftp access should send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body to find out how to do ftp by e mail list of questions in the gopher faq q what is gopher q where can i get gopher software q what do i need to access gopher q where are there publicly available logins for gopher q who develops gopher software q what is the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp q are papers or articles describing gopher available q what is veronica q what is available for biology q what is gopher a the internet gopher client server provides a distributed information delivery system around which a world campus wide information system cwis can readily be constructed while providing a delivery vehicle for local information gopher facilitates access to other gopher and information servers throughout the world q where can i get gopher software a via anonymous ftp to boombox micro umn edu look in the directory pub gopher q what do i need to access gopher a you will need a gopher client program that runs on your local pc or workstation there are clients for the following systems the directory following the name is the location of the client on the anonymous ftp site boombox micro umn edu in the directory pub gopher unix curses emacs pub gopher unix gopher tar z xwindows athena pub gopher unix xgopher tar z xwindows motif pub gopher unix moog xwindows xview pub gopher unix xvgopher macintosh hypercard pub gopher macintosh turbogopher old versions macintosh application pub gopher macintosh turbogopher dos w clarkson driver pub gopher pc client nextstep pub gopher next vm cms pub gopher rice cms or pub gopher viegopher vms pub gopher vms os pub gopher os mvs xa pub gopher mvs many other clients and servers have been developed by others the following is an attempt at a comprehensive list a microsoft windows winsock client the gopher book sunsite unc edu pub micro pc stuff ms windows winsock goph tbk zip a macintosh application macgopher ftp cc utah edu pub gopher macintosh another macintosh application gopherapp ftp bio indiana edu util gopher gopherapp a port of the unix curses client for dos with pc tcp oac hsc uth tmc edu public dos misc dosgopher exe a port of the unix curses client for pc nfs bcm tmc edu nfs gopher exe a beta version of the pc gopher client for novell s lan workplace for dos lennon itn med umich edu dos gopher a vms decwindows client for use with wollongong or ucx job acs ohio state edu xgopher client share note these macintosh clients require mactcp most of the above clients can also be fetched via a gopher client itself put the following on a gopher server type host boombox micro umn edu port path name gopher software distribution or point your gopher client at boombox micro umn edu port and look in the gopher directory there are also a number of public telnet login sites available the university of minnesota operates one on the machine consultant micro umn edu see q for more information about this it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public telnet login sites a client uses the custom features of the local machine mouse scroll bars etc a local client is also faster q where are there publicly available logins ie places to telnet to in order to get a taste of gopher for gopher a here is a short list use the site closest to you to minimize network lag telnet public logins hostname ip login area consultant micro umn edu gopher north america gopher uiuc edu gopher north america panda uiowa edu panda north america gopher sunet se gopher europe info anu edu au info australia gopher chalmers se gopher sweden tolten puc cl gopher south america ecnet ec gopher ecuador gan ncc go jp gopher japan it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public login sites a client uses the custom features of the local machine mouse scroll bars etc and gives faster response furthermore many of the basic features of clients saving a file to your hard drive printing a file to a local printer viewing images retrieving files from ftp sites etc are not available by the telnet logins q who develops gopher software a gopher was originally developed in april by the university of minnesota microcomputer workstation networks center to help our campus find answers to their computer questions it has since grown into a full fledged world wide information system used by a large number of sites in the world many people have contributed to the project too numerous to count the people behind the much of the gopher software can be reached via e mail at gopher boombox micro umn edu or via paper mail internet gopher developers union st se minneapolis mn usa or via fax at q what is the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp a gopher is intimately intertwined with these two other systems as shipped the unix gopher server has the capability to search local wais indices query remote wais servers and funnel the results to gopher clients query remote ftp sites and funnel the results to gopher clients be queried by www world wide web clients either using built in gopher querying or using native http querying q are papers or articles describing gopher available a gopher has a whole chapter devoted to it in the whole internet ed kroll o reilly editors note great book go out and buy a bunch the internet passport northwestnet s guide to our world online by jonathan kochmer and northwestnet published by northwestnet bellevue wa pp isbn contact info passport nwnet net or a students guide to unix by harley hahn publisher mcgraw hill inc isbn other references include the internet gopher connexions july interop exploring internet gopherspace the internet society news v n you can subscribe to the internet society news by sending e mail to isoc nri reston va us the internet gopher protocol proceedings of the twenty third ietf cnri section internet gopher proceedings of canadian networking the internet gopher internet getting started sri international section tools help internet users discover on line treasures computerworld july tcp ip network administration o reilly balakrishan b oct spigopher making spires databases accessible through the gopher protocol spires fall workshop chapel hill north carolina tomer c information technology standards for libraries journal of the american society for information science sept q what is veronica a veronica very easy rodent oriented net wide index to computerized archives veronica offers a keyword search of most gopher server menu titles in the entire gopher web as archie is to ftp archives veronica is to gopherspace a veronica search produces a menu of gopher items each of which is a direct pointer to a gopher data source because veronica is accessed through a gopher client it is easy to use and gives access to all types of data supported by the gopher protocol to try veronica select it from the other gophers menu on minnesota s gopher server or point your gopher at name veronica search menu items in most of gopherspace type port path veronica host futique scs unr edu q what is available for biology a there is an incredible amount of software data and information availble to biologists now by gopher here is a brief list of the biological databases that you can search via gopher bdt tropical data base searches biotechnet buyers guide online catalogues for biology tel search protein data bank headers chlamydomonas genetics center crystallization database hgmp databases probes and primers museum of paleontology type specimen index mycdb mycobacterium database search drosophila flybase indiana search genbank swiss prot pir pdb search aatdb an arabidopsis thaliana database search acedb a caenorhabditis elegans database search compoundkb a metabolic compound database search databases at welchlab vectors promoters nrl d est omi search embl search genbank search genbank search genbank updates search limb search pir search pir keyword species search prosite search rebase restriction enzyme database search swiss prot search tfd search the c elegans strain list search the dna database of japan search the ec enzyme database search the graingenes database search the maize database cloning vectors plasmids phage etc epd eukaryotic promoter database est expressed sequence tag database human west expressed sequence tag database c elegans kabat database of proteins of immunological interest nrl d protein sequence structure database omim online mendelian inheritance in man seqanalref sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban search rebase restriction enzyme database search the ec enzyme database search the rodent section of genbank database taxonomy genbank swiss prot retrieve full pdb entries by accession number search for all researchers funded by nih search for genome researchers funded by doe search for researchers funded by nsf search for researchers funded by the usda e mail addresses of crystallographers e mail addresses of yeast reasearchers phonebooks around the world search and retrieve software for all computers search and retrieve macintosh software search and retrieve dos software search and retrieve gnu software search and retrieve software for biology search for agricultural software search and retrieve graphics software and data search and retrieve all online perl scripts ftp sites for biology archives for software and data and the list goes on this is just the beginning
comp.graphics	re looking for polygon convexifier in article rvpmc dd nwfocus wa com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons i also would like code or algorithms to do this although i am not offering code i would like to point out that any polygon triangulation code satisfies the task as stated if you want code to partition a polygon into the minimum number of convex pieces i doubt very much if it exists although an algorithm is known
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display in trevorc cz x netcom com trevor netcom com sandy santra writes mike mattone mike nx mik uky edu wrote i ve only had the computer for about months only that s a long time is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display i think months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable if you had bought a compaq or toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong but that s a moot point perhaps maybe i ve had an epson portable with backlit lcd since which is still used daily and the screen on that is fine the only problem it has and ever has had is the arm of the screen is sorta lose and if you bend it fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle it round a bit but other than that it s been perfect so what s that about um months justin sullivan system administrator dialix services sydney modem justin sydney dialix oz au ph perth
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article s p n m o pandora sdsu edu add sciences sdsu edu james d murray writes perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now is the result of the natural evolution of a successful hacker either you make money go to jail lee feldenstein sp or just fade away as oh that s uncle so and so who really likes computers what a computer hacker is and does will change as long as the definition of the word computer continues to change or perhaps you write a freely available gpled unix for commonly available computer platforms i i machines and become a catalyst for a major netwide project which produces a better unix like os than many commercial counterparts see comp os linux for details or maybe you found a legue for programming freedom to fight restrictive litigation and software patenting practices thereby protecting the creative freedom so vital to continuing progress in our field or maybe you start up a gnu project and produce by far and away the best c c compiler for unix there is not to mention other valuable utilities some hackers make significant contributions without selling out their ideals as for bill gates after pawning of grossly inferior software onto the pc market for ten years if he ever was a hacker he deserves to have his name eradicated from the annals of computer hackery as for me i like running linux x countless other packages without paying a dime on the other hand i have no problem purchasing motif or other good software as long as microsoft hasn t fouled it with their inept input my cents worth flames will be patiently ignored jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university e mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	how can i download files graphics how can i find these files and graphics that people are downloading from their unix systems then how do i download them i am a complete beginner in this obviously so please baby step me through the process first of all i don t see amongst these newsgroups where there is anything remotely like a gif tif or compiled shareware program thanks in advance for any information you can give me i know there is a unix command ftp that will allow me to do this but first i need to know where to go to find the file i want download via ftp etc thomas helke egret wet uucp wq
comp.graphics	where can i find someone who can digitize currier ives does anyone know if any of currier and ives etchings have been digitized for use in desktop publishing i am particularly interested in their riverboat scenes does anyone know who can get me for a fee a good digitized river boat image thank you david dumas david dumas dmd isis msstate edu david dumas dmd isis msstate edu
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion yury german blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight productions genie blue knight graphic design and video productions
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go from article may aurora alaska edu by pstlb aurora alaska edu i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry since this was posted on comp ai i assume there is an ai angle to this hacking is what ai students do when they re really supposed to be doing something else e g thesis research write up getting their supervisors pet programs to run properly etc no one gets much glory for hacking and no one gets any money out of it producing good free software requires an enormous investment of time resources that not many people can or want to afford particularly during a recession in addition over the last years i think there has been a de emphasis on producing running programs in ai research and a greater emphasis on more formal approaches to problem solving students have been proving theorems instead of writing programs at a conference a year or two ago johann de kleer suggested that everyone should get back to the keyboard and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas and i have to say i m inclined to agree i don t claim to be a superhacker but i don t think that invalidates my remarks and i m sure this isn t the whole story peter jackson dept of electrical computer eng clarkson university opinions expressed are not those of my employer or any other organization second violin fiddling firefighters ensemble rome branch
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article blue knight tj bknight jpr com blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion hijaak claims to convert dxf to iff although hijaak claims some stuff that i have never gotten to work for example not long ago i tried to convert some iff files from an amiga video toaster using crossdos so my pc could read the disks int targa files hijaak made some gorgeous megabyte targa files from the iffs all totally black mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ of tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu of the university of tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ve ever been before
comp.graphics	tel for d scanners needed hello all i need to make some torso d scans and would like the phone numbers of companies in the midwest that make scans and the numbers of companies that make the sanners ie cyberware does anyone have an idea of how much a single scan costs and the best format to save it in i am not sure on what software platform i will be using it in probably either softimage or wavefront so i think a spline based format would be best please forward the numbers to me personally as i am having problems accessing usenet lately thanks in advance patrick maun r gab awiuni edvz univie ac at st paul mn
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems a xv can load a bit image and display it in all it s bit glory on bit x displays b all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported on bit images how hard would this be not very you just type xloadimage or getx instead of xv
comp.graphics	d modelers for unix could someone please post a list of good three d modelers that will run on sparc stations preferably cheap thanks richard rws v virginia edu
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone perhaps all of us hackers have become ick professionals i have noticed my and my associates progression from hackers to computer professionals it is rather distasteful it occurs when a series of things happen one s ego outgrows one s talent knowledge one s financial situation takes precedence a change in priorities esp family possibly leading to the hacker s attitude makes the shift from fun to work one s vocation burns away the creativity needed for the hobby or the biggest killer imo one s dreams are sadly shattered on the hard rocks of society s version of reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless another set of problems stems from our children while most of us remember when there were several completely different computer systems our children are growing up with just a few choices msdos mac amiga and do not enjoy the diversity we did i remember the great computer fallout of the early eighties vividly as i was forced to stop using skills developed for systems that were now dead the diversity of systems before then allowed for widely divergent paradigms that period forced hackers to continually learn new systems in the attempt to keep up not to mention that if a program was needed we were forced in most situations to write it ourselves as a commercial offering was just not available now our children are being taught the user mentality as the number of us old timers dwindle we are not being replaced by the next generation kendall kendall sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu programmer child development unit amiga department of pediatrics currently running amigaos university of louisville xx and supporting unix sys v rev life is a game you play once in order to win you must make a difference remember this is not a practice session
comp.graphics	what is smithsonian institution ftp address does antone know the ftp address for the smithsonian institution where one can get digitized photographs etc please reply by email to pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu thanks paul benson
comp.graphics	companies involved with scientific visualization if anyone has a list of companies doing data visualization software or hardware i would like to hear from them thanks krs k r subramanian ph at t bell laboratories rm a email krs research att com mountain av murray hill nj
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion actually iff is a format standard it is not a picture file format sound file format but there exist several formats that use the iff standard the iff picture standard used by mostly everybody is a form ilbm or just ilbm the only d iff specification i know of is tddd which is used by imagine and it s predecessor turbo silver it is possible that some of the other amiga packages use another iff spec but i don t know of any lightwave will load tddd form s i believe christopher b fury this space for rent cfury csugrad cs vt edu call quoteme for more information
comp.graphics	definition of occlusion hi everyone i don t clearly understand occlusion in computer graphics would you please give me an explanation btw what s the difference between occluded surface and opaque surface thanks in advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	re what is do in rs giinn hk no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes someone please fill me in on what do thanks bh there is a review of do in the latest wired magazine you may just want to take a trip to the local bookstore and check it out there s some cool pics too i haven t read it yet or i d tell you more aaron hightower
comp.graphics	re oak vga mb please i needd vesa tsr simple look for vesa drivers in vpic e package many svga card supported look for it on your favorite bbs not tonight honey i just received my nuvotel prxfalken email teaser com pascal guillaumet teaser issy les moulineaux france
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of april new version of xv supports bit viewing for x windows new versions of dvpeg image alchemy for dos new versions of image archiver pmview for os new listing mgif for monochrome display ataris this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows xv shareware is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib xv tar z version is a major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version is not a good choice if you have a bit display you ll get only bit color nor for converting bit images to jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in version be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast if you have huge amounts of ram otherwise about the same speed as the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome st monitors try mgif which manages to achieve four level grayscale effect by flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif b zoo i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must be some by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go kendall opusii sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu wrote or the biggest killer imo one s dreams are sadly shattered on the hard rocks of society s version of reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless actually there are more possibilities one is that with practice the hacker has become so good and powerful in manipulating data streams that s he goes simply underground possessing true power perhaps there is no need to impress anyone with it grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms appsoft image is available for nextstep it is a image processing program similar to adobe photoshop it is reviewed in the april issue of publish magazine richardt
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms charles boesel writes in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now illustrator for sgi is a shipping product adobe and sgi have announced that photoshop is being ported to sgi machines a simillar announcement has been made by adobe and sun for sun platforms no dates have been announced to the best of my knowledge zalman stern zalman adobe com adobe systems charleston rd pob mountain view ca we re just a couple of joyful little pervo goats akbar jeff
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go on a more cheerful note perhaps hackerism hacking isn t completely dead as someone else said take the gnu offerings for example free redistributable and often better than the commercial stuff take also the number of papers published every year in all the fields of computer science the vast majority of these papers detail original work of real often exceptional merit and the authors are sharing this knowledge have fun roddi
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go i think the main reason is that in the good old hacker days of the young er gates and jobs of the world the computer was not as widespread a phenomenom as it is now with the increased popularity of the pc come a plethora of mundane business uses which required more practical minded and narrower focused programmers why be a hacker when you can get a good job programming databases or programs for accountants basically the yuppies caught up and disciplined the hackers and molded them in their own image carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
comp.graphics	wanted d rendering lib for pc does any one know of a decent quality library of routines for performing d graphics modelling on the pc ideally the routines would be embeded in our application program requirements wish list flat surface modelling simple phong shading optional ability to plot hidden line drawings texture mapping both procedural and bit map modeling light sources local distant and spot lights ray tracing radiosity optional any comments would be appreciated john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu ca phone john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu ca
comp.graphics	vesa driver for xga i heard that there is a vesa driver for the xga card available on compuserve i just got this card and i am wondering if this driver is available on a ftp site anywhere my news service has beeen erratic lately so please e mail me at walsh stolaf edu thanks in advance
comp.graphics	help with world to screen x transfomation matrix i need help in creating my x perspective matrix i d like to use this for transforming x y z w in some texture mapping code i got from graphics gems i i have many books which talk about this but none of them in simple plain english if you have graphics gems i i m talking about page i d like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field of views and aspect of course thank s for your help yes of course everything i say is my personal opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck oau org or rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	access bus re access bus software creator s contest intro to access bus re the access bus software creator s contest announcement what is access bus access bus is a new open industry standard for computer peripheral connectivity access bus is a serial protocol that uses simple low cost i c technology to link multiple devices to a single pc port peripheral devices such as keyboards or keypads locators mice trackballs joysticks printers vr gloves digitizers sensors actuators or data transmitters and others can be easily daisy chained to the host pc applications such as cad cam data acquisition simulation virtual reality multiple player single pc games education and many many more can now take advantage of access bus the technology that puts plug and play on every pc the access bus offers advantages to end users and developers of systems and peripherals multiple devices connect to the host computer with only one port common communication methods for a number of device types lead to simplified hardware and software development as an open standard access bus enables cross platform use of the same device access bus technological description access bus technology is an open specification enabling anyone to implement it on host systems or in peripheral devices without fee or royalty access bus has a bus topology architecture that is a single host can accommodate up to peripheral devices access bus data rate is kbits sec access bus physical layer access bus is a serial bus architecture based on i c hardware protocol with one data line and one clock line standard low cost i c microcontrollers handle bit level handshaking including automatic arbitration and clock synchronization access bus software protocols the access bus communication protocol is composed of three levels i c protocol base protocol and application protocol i c protocol this simple and efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data i c provides for cooperative synchronization of bus partners with different clock rates bus transactions include addressing framing of bits into bytes and byte acknowledgment by the receiver base protocol establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between a host computer and multiple peripherals the host becomes the access bus manager the base protocol defines the format of an access bus message envelope which is an i c bus transaction with additional semantics including checksum unique features of the base protocol are auto addressing and hot plugging auto addressing assigns devices with unique bus addresses without the need for setting jumpers or switches hot plugging is the ability to attach and detach devices while the system is running without rebooting application protocol this is the highest level of the access bus protocol which defines message semantics specific to particular types of devices each type requires a different application protocol three broad device types have been identified keyboards locators and text devices access bus support on the pc all three levels of the access bus protocol are supported on the pc an add on card implements the physical layer and uses the base protocol to communicate with physical access bus devices an access bus manager tsr under dos and a dll under windows controls the operation of the physical layer and interacts with the access bus device drivers drivers are available for multiple access bus keyboards locators and printers for dos and windows also available are c language source code examples of the interface from applications to the device drivers to contact abig the access bus industry group postal address altair way suite sunnyvale ca internet email abig netcom com fax voice
comp.graphics	call for papers for informatika vol no this is an invitation to send articles to the informatica magazine the first fully international issue has been published and echoes are quite favourable for any information contact matjaz gams ijs si dear colleague april number of volume of informatica is now out of print and some of you will receive it in a week or so as you will see the journal is structured in the following way the editorial first page profiles second page biography of an editor in this issue terry winograd the edited part of papers pp mission and research reports a plan for knowledge archives project in japan and csli in stanford pp and news and announcements pp this structure is mentioned to give you a suggestion how could you help to make the contents of the journal significant diverse and interesting bringing your own views into the discourse a great emphasis is given to the so called editorial page this page expresses an opinion belief of the writing editor to some problems within the scope of computing and informatics extending into other concerning disciplines e g cybernetics advanced ai cognitive sciences mind informationally concerned neural sciences advanced technology e g photonics etc i asked professor terry winograd to write this page for number i certainly would appreciate very much to get suggestions or possible offers from other editors who like to express their strong directed beliefs concerning a future development of the area in question on the second page of each number an editor s profile is published the aim of the profile is twofold to show his her professional achievements interests scientific and philosophical orientation on one side to narrate his her life story in the environments in which editors has lived and live on the other side this kind of story should be instructive adequately factically faced contributing to the understanding of circumstances in which editors have to act and live the edited part edited papers is still critical i would like to have a stock of accepted papers in advance so the issuing dates of a particular number can be fixed e g january april july and october in situation right now i ask you to help me with contributions of yours or your colleagues collaborators students etc some critical views to the contemporary development of computing and informatics are appreciated a special emphasis should be given also to originality by which fresh ideas are coming into the circulation of different professional communities reports of different occasions symposia conferences meetings etc and particularly on new books papers and interesting events are welcome you can send these news immediately also by your secretary by e mail on the other hand you can send books and other publications annual reports journals calls for papers etc for reviewing and publishing in informatica we in the editorial staff will manage the rest e mail is functioning satisfactorily so please use it in every respect you can submit editorial notes profiles reports news and even complete papers written in standard latex format especially formulas we received several final corrected texts in number from different sites us russia etc in this way you can compose reports from already typed texts using your own choice and editing and submit them to the contact person matjaz gams ijs si who is always being on your disposal so you will receive a prompt confirmation and any information concerning our common interest and job at the end please do not forget we need your cooperation and help in every mentioned respect the aim of informatica is to open various possibilities of communication concerning strong scientific and philosophical orientations as well as those coming up still unrevealed and on the way to become significant please do not apprehend to give proposals suggestions and certainly contributions via the e mail and by other means sincerely yours anton p zeleznikar editor in chief
comp.graphics	re anti aliasing raytracing question in article slb lbu mserv dl ac uk g coulter daresbury ac uk writes hi everyone i was woundering if someone could answer a simple query for me on raytracing and anti aliasing stuff deleted i have a similiar question relating to anti alaising that my friend has asked to have posted to the more knowledgable in this group i m sorry if this is an faq what anti alaising methods do persistance of vision polyray use thank you in advance you can either email me or reply or flame me if it is an faq dwa
comp.graphics	need c algorithm which decide whether a d point is inside a space defined by planes hey i am looking for c algorithm which decide whether a d point is inside a space which was defined by x d points with a space defined by x d points i mean a space defined by closed d meshes defined by points like this but in this simple example the sides are parallel but my problem the sides can be non parallel and the opposite sides must not have the same size etc please mail me your informations thanks for your great efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de
comp.graphics	re help with world to screen x transfomation matrix in article c vnmv g rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert j c kyanko writes i need help in creating my x perspective matrix i d like to use this for transforming x y z w in some texture mapping code i got from graphics gems i i have many books which talk about this but none of them in simple plain english if you have graphics gems i i m talking about page i d like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field of views and aspect of course thank s for your help ca cos alpha horizontal sa sin alpha cb cos beta vertical sb sin beta zf far clipping value zn near clipping value matrix ca sa cb sb zf zf zn zn zf zf zn geir atle storhaug geir a storhaug vm ffi no phone office home
comp.graphics	graphics library gl for hp and sun we are looking for gl source code which was developed by silicon graphics sgi we would like to compile it on sun and hp s if there is anyone already supporting gl on hp and sun please respond also please respond if anyone knows where the source code is available thank you chandra sbi com jon sbi com
comp.graphics	re svga hicolor johan conroy jconroy babel ee up ac za wrote i have a question about svga cards i have a tseng svga with mb memory and x bit dacs as far as i know to display a x x now can i display x bit pixel bit maps on this card you can at the least your hardware is capable of supporting this mode i do know nothing about your video bios though if so how silly but fool proof way install windows with x x k colors wideo driver and display your pictures under windows cheese serge p
comp.graphics	d images can anyone around here point me to information regarding stereoscopic images i believe i saw some at a show room in texas lone star illusions and they were amazing i ve now heard that they were created with a simple graphic program does anyone have any of these images digitized i really want to find a out as much as i can thanks brian ccnext ucsf edu please reply to this address
comp.graphics	compositing pictures on pc i was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the pc that will do compositing of a series of pictures what i mean by compositing is say i have a live video clip digitized panning around a living room and a computer generated bird flying around the screen i want to combine these two series of pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black i want the living room picture to show through yes i realize i can do this with a genlock and i do own a genlock but i want to be able to do manual compositing also it s ok if i have to composite one frame at a time i assumed i d have to do that anyway but being able to composite a series of frames would be even better i ve looked around and i haven t found a pc package that will perform this help please
comp.graphics	re compositing pictures on pc in article may torreypinesca ncr com chu torreypinesca ncr com patrick chu writes i was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the pc that will do compositing of a series of pictures what i mean by compositing is say i have a live video clip digitized panning around a living room and a computer generated bird flying around the screen i want to combine these two series of pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black i want the living room picture to show through yes i realize i can do this with a genlock and i do own a genlock but i want to be able to do manual compositing also it s ok if i have to composite one frame at a time i assumed i d have to do that anyway but being able to composite a series of frames would be even better i ve looked around and i haven t found a pc package that will perform this help please if you can get the live animation and the computer generated animation into autodesk animator fli or flc format autodesk animator will do this for you it can take one animation make a certain color clear and overlay it over another animation i do not have a way right now to convert avi or mpg files to animator files animator will also import a series of gif files to create an animation so if your video capture stuff can create this is might work vance gloster gloster inference com
comp.graphics	tga viewer for ati ultra hello the subject line says it all i m looking for a tga file viewer for the ati ultra card it should support the true color modes of course if someone knows where to find one via ftp please let me know thanx oliver klimek
comp.graphics	gamma correction can someone who knows what they re talking about add a faq entry on gamma correction thanks mark
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in sp qj dorsai dorsai org crawls dorsai dorsai org charles rawls writes the hacker ethic is alive and well here i know of what you speak and my only answer is screw em you have to do what make you feel right amen i too have learned by example specifically yours what can i say but keep the faith there are others who do likewise but dorsai leads the way unlike other services that are commercial in nature dorsai is a community based service while others charge monthly fees for access dorsai accepts donations from those who can afford to contribute while other systems don t respond to user input dorsai thrives on it other systems sell hardware for a profit dorsai donates hardware to community service groups and to individuals who couldn t afford to normally dorsai lives due to the hacker ethic of charles jack skip cara ira mark david etc etc etc sleepless nights and days working on equipment thats been assembled at the embassy and modifying what ever else available to work the first time in order to keep the slip line up heres to you bud i m one of the few that decided to stay and am damn glad that i did carlos dominguez sys admin owner kibbitzer o o ooo ooo root carlos uucp or uupsi jpradley carlos carlos ask me about helldiver carlos carlos jpr com guaranteed address
comp.graphics	re vga graphics library in article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics sorts of things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully in the public domain this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non dos operating system running on a standard pc check the server code for x r or xfree daniel un x ortmann talmidim ndsu electrical engineering ortmann plains nodak edu shalom fargo north dakota
comp.graphics	autodesk bbs does autodesk has a bbs
comp.graphics	re siggraph online experimental publication available try cd ing to publications may online on siggraph org it s there rosalee
comp.graphics	pov animating in an attempt to do animation with pov i have created two little programs one is a c program that will perform a morph between any two points given the amount of frames for the morph and then it will write the points and the function translate rotate etc out to a file then i have a perl script that will read the list of functions and insert them into a pov file at a given line i had hoped this would let me do simple animation however i have discovered that simply performing incremental rotations on an object will not spin a stationary object but will actually rotate the object about the axis now i know an easy way around this would be to first translate the object to the origin perform the rotation and then move it back but i know there must be another way around this i had thought perhaps it was because i had created objects at the origin and then translated them to a new point and then done the rotation which could cause this behavior however this occurs on objects that are not translated at all any help is appreciated ttknock bbs santafe edu
comp.graphics	gifs on a tek x i was skimming through a few gophers and bumped into one at nih with a database that included images in gif format while i have not yet worked out the kinks of getting the gopher client to call an x viewer i figure that the majority of the users here are not in an x environment instead using dos and ms kermit with kermit supporting tek emulation for graphics display does anyone know of a package that would allow a tek to display a gif image it would be of more use to the local population to plug something of this sort in as the picture command instead of xview or xloadimage andrew brennan hal hahnemann edu
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec kazsato twics co jp writes hi i d like to know if there is any system cpu hd array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime hdtv has about mb frame so recording playing moving picture will need about mb sec bandwidth i m thinking to treat the raw data not compressed finding a disk array that can do mb sec will be difficult the fastest ones i know about are from maximum strategy ibm also sells these they can attach hippi at up to mb sec bit for these kinds of data rates you need more than scsi for connections their latest model the raid model gen only does mb sec but i think this may be a limitation only of the hippi channel and that customer needs have not exceeded that speed since their older model was faster they are also not idle must be working on newer products that might be faster and are a small company so you might be able to ask about custom interfaces they still marketed the older faster model as of a few mongths ago maximum strategy inc buckeye court milpitas ca sales maxstrat com you might still want to look into compression as it will be very difficult to keep the hippi bus fully working at all times sustained throughput might come close to maximum burst rate interesting problem tell us more if you can if anyone can advise me what kind of product i should look into please e mail me i will appriciate it the vendor s e mail address price of the products actual performance data of the products any info will help me thanks in advance kaz sato tokyo japan e mail kazsato twics co jp dick wilmot editor independent raid report
comp.graphics	wanted mpeg description or sources encoders decoders please help with mpeg description or sources decoders encoders great thanks in advance maximus wb origin mister postman bbs
comp.graphics	re gif to dstudio as far as simply mapping your logo or whatever onto a cube or sphere it s quite easy just either copy the gif you want mapped into the map directory or add a map path to the directory where it currently is then go into the materials editor and make a new material with that as the bit map voila h e y b e r e n zippy cyberden sf ca us the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article may vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch vinci writes blah blah talking about hackers you know wow a new proof for an np complete problem you guys in eurpoe really got your stuff together base step deleted too bad inductive step but anyway poor golfers bad carpenters or bad surgeons are not thieves so your assertion that hacker thief is unsupported by your argument imho the narrower view that a hacker when associated with the computing environment is a dishonest expert is not so widespread inductive hypothesis therefore i conclude that if you call yourself a hacker and somebody perceives you as a thief then this person belongs to a very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough to know the wider and original meaning of the word of course one can always know this and disregard it nonetheless then equate hacker to thief giving substance to mr humpty s assertion even though in a kind of reverse way fodder step finally a true hacker does not name himself herself one for this is a title that is bestowed by the befuddled sysadmins and users at large to me a sign of a truly great hacker is to be introduced to someone who says nahh i just know a thing or two people always exagerate filipe santos english is not my first language so plse be forgetful of my mistakes like my mother always said if you can t say something nice or was that can t say something right kxh this is the signature file what do you think
comp.graphics	pov tga i m having a slight problem with the pov raytracer i m not sure if this is the correct group to post to or not i create tga files on a unix machine using pov then when i download them to display on my pc they re listed as bad files but when i create the file on my pc it displays fine are unix tga s incompatible with the pc an easy solution to this problem would be a unix targa gif converter anyone know where i could find one any help on this subject is appreciated kevin
comp.graphics	tex texture map format i was at avalon today and found texture maps in some tex and txc format something i ve never encountered before these are obviously not tex or latex files if you have a clue how i can convert these to something reasonable please let me know brian
comp.graphics	re gamma correction in article t meinnrc gap caltech edu madler cco caltech edu mark adler writes can someone who knows what they re talking about add a faq entry on gamma correction thanks i get regular questions about gamma correction since i go to great pains to deal with it properly in xli the image loader program i maintain here is an explanation i often use to answer these questions this might be suitable for inclusion in the faq graeme gill a note on gamma correction and images author graeme w gill graeme labtam oz au date what is all this gamma stuff anyway although it would be nice to think that an image is an image there are a lot of complications not only are there a whole bunch of different image formats gif jpeg tiff etc etc there is a whole lot of other technical stuff that makes dealing with images a bit complicated gamma is one of those things if you ve ever downloaded images from bbs or the net you ve probably noticed with most image viewing programs that some images look ok some look too dark and some look too light why is this you may ask this is gamma correction or the lack of it why do we need gamma correction at all gamma correction is needed because of the nature of crts cathode ray tubes the monitors usually used for viewing images if you have some sort of real live scene and turn it into a computer image by measuring the amount of light coming from each point of the scene then you have created a linear or un gamma corrected image this is a good thing in many ways because you can manipulate the image as if the values in the image file were light ie adding and multiplying will work just like real light in the real world now if you take the image file and turn each pixel value into a voltage and feed it into a crt you find that the crt doesn t give you an amount of light proportional to the voltage the amount of light coming from the phosphor in the screen depends on the the voltage something like this light out voltage crt gamma so if you just dump your nice linear image out to a crt the image will look much too dark to fix this up you have to gamma correct the image first you need to do the opposite of what the crt will do to the image so that things cancel out and you get what you want so you have to do this to your image gamma corrected image image crt gamma for most crts the crt gamma is somewhere between and if that is all it is why does it seem so complicated the problem is that not all display programs do gamma correction also not all sources of images give you linear images video cameras or video signals in general because of this a lot of images already have some gamma correction done to them and you are rarely sure how much if you try and display one of those images with a program that does gamma correction for you the image gets corrected twice and looks way to light if you display one of those images with a program that doesn t do gamma correction then it will look vaguely right but not perfect because the gamma correction is not exactly right for you particular crt whose fault is all this it is really three things one is all those display programs out there that don t do gamma correction properly another is that most image formats don t specify a standard gamma or don t have some way or recording what their gamma correction is the third thing is that not many people understand what gamma correction is all about and create a lot of images with varying gamma s at least two file formats do the right thing the utah graphics toolkit rle format has a semi standard way of recording the gamma of an image the jfif file standard that uses jpeg compression specifies that the image to be encoded must have a gamma of ie a linear image but not everyone obeys the rules some image loaders for instance xli an x image utility allow you to specify not only the gamma of the monitor you are using but the individual gamma values of image you are trying to view other image viewers eg xv another x image program and utilities eg the pbm toolkit provide ways of changing the gamma of an image but you have to figure out the overall gamma correction yourself allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has and then the gamma correction you need to suite your crt monitor note that xv doesn t provide an easy way of modifying the gamma of an image you need to adjust the r g and b curves to the appropriate gamma in the coledit controls altering the intensity in the hsv controls doesn t do the right thing as it fails to take account of the effect gamma has on h and s this tends to give a tint to the image how can i figure out what my viewer does or what gamma my screen has the simplest way to do that is to try loading the file chkgamma jpg provided with xli distribution which is a jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps the ramps are chosen to look linear to the human eye one using continuous tones and the other using dithering if your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects images then the two ramps should look symmetrical and the point at which they look equally bright should be almost exactly half way from the top to the bottom to find this point it helps if you move away a little from the screen and de focus your eyes a bit if your viewer doesn t do gamma correction then left hand ramp will have a long dark part and a short white part and the point of equal brightness will be above the center if your viewer does have a way of setting the right amount of gamma correction for a display then if the equal brightness point is above center increase the gamma and decrease it if it is below the center the value will usually be around with xli for instance you can adjust the display gamma with the dispgamma flag and once you ve got it right you can set the display gamma environment variable in your profile how do i figure out what the gamma of an image is this is the most tricky bit as a general rule it seems that a lot of true color ie bit ppm jpg images have a gamma of linear although there are many about that have some gamma correction it seems that the majority of pseudo color images ie bit images with color maps gif etc are gamma corrected to some degree or other if your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will look good and gamma corrected images will look too light if your viewer doesn t do gamma correction then linear images will look too dark and gamma corrected images will ok why linear images are sometimes not such a good thing one of the reason that many high quality formats such as video use gamma correction is that it actually makes better use of the storage medium this is because the human eye has a logarithmic response to light and gamma correction has a similar compression characteristic this means images could make better use of bits per color for instance if they used gamma correction the implication though is that every time you want to do any image processing you should convert the bit image to or so linear bits to retain the same accuracy since little popular software does this and none of the popular image formats can agree on a standard gamma correction factor it is difficult to justify gamma corrected images at the popular level if some image formats can standardize on a particular gamma and if image manipulation software takes care to use extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data then gamma corrected distribution of images would be a good thing i am told that the kodak photocd format for instance has a standard gamma correction factor that enables it to get the highest quality out of the bits used to hold the image
comp.graphics	help a rectangle and parallelogram i hope someone can help me with the following problem i m sure there must be a known solution given a rectangle defined by x x x and y y y where x and y are constant and a parallelogram defined by c a x b y c and c c x d y c where c c a b c d are constants and b a d c i e not parallel lines not equal to what is the area of their intersection what i m after is some general algorithm suitable for all rectangles and parallelograms that can be described by the above equations at the moment it looks like i m going to have to look at all possible cases and examine each seperately e g rectangle encloses parallelogram parallelogram encloses rectangle two corners of parallelogram inside rectangle y y origin y y x x two corners of parallelogram outside rectangle i hope someone can help many thanks in advance dave nettleton e mail d j nettleton durham ac uk ps can you please cc me any replies by e mail
comp.graphics	re pict epsf etc map of italy in article chunter umab bitnet chunter umab bitnet writes does anybody know where i can get a graphic mac pict epsf tiff gif whatever of italy i m looking for a picture of a map of italy even just the a map of italy showing the states provinces is in the freehand for windows clip art collection corel draw clip art has an outline map of italy jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	comp graphics faq is there a comp graphics faq and if so where jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	help animation for pcx gif files hi i ve a series of images in sun raster formats i ve converted them to pcx formats i can do the conversion to others like gif as well i would like to know of any software that is able to do animation for these formats and to record the animation onto a video tape thank you leong wai ming internet engp nusunix nus sg national university of singapore bitnet engp nusvm nus sg
comp.graphics	re information on bmp files in article gnbich med uovs ac za gnbich med uovs ac za charles herbst biofisika writes is there anybody who can help me with information on the bmp file format please mail directly to gnbich med uovs ac za help will be appreciated charles herbst i have also been looking for this but i have come up with nothing i have looked in ftp ncsa uiuc edu which is supposed to have a lot of image specs email is preferred if there is enough interest i will post a summary lise unit no
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of may added info on imageviewer for next this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows xv shareware is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib xv tar z version is a major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version is not a good choice if you have a bit display you ll get only bit color nor for converting bit images to jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in version be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp targa pcx viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing roughly the same speed as the above two programs has image manipulation slideshow functions shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome st monitors try mgif which manages to achieve four level grayscale effect by flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif b zoo i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must be some by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel next imageviewer is a pd utility that displays images and can do some format conversions the current version reads jpeg but does not write it imageviewer is available from the standard next archives at sonata cc purdue edu and cs orst edu somewhere in pub next both are currently being re organized so it s hard to point to specific sub directories note that there is an older version floating around that does not support jpeg portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re optimizing projections in article sua tinnqs no names nerdc ufl edu lioness ufcc ufl edu writes my three d library does a lot of projections duh but currently it is projecting an object s vertices on a per triangle basis this is grossly inefficient for of the objects displayed which can be optimized by doing projections one time once for each vertex but objects whose z extents intersect the hither plane can t benefit from this because new vertices must be created during z clipping anyone have any better ideas yes here s what you should do keep the vertices in an array and have the polygons triangles are okay but n sided polygons are slightly more efficient store the indices into the array of the vertices that comprise them you set a flag for each vertex when you transform it so you don t have to transform any vertex more than once you also do backface elimination before processing the polygon so that vertices that belong only to bacfacing polys don t have to be transformed at all whenever you transform a vertex check if it s on the far side of the hither plane if it is you can project it right away and store the result then do your z clip any vertices that get produced will have to have their projection done at that stage bernie roehl university of waterloo dept of electrical and computer engineering mail broehl sunee uwaterloo ca voice x work
comp.graphics	parametric drafting hello networld i m looking for documentation books on parametric drafting does anyone know of such material electronic on a gopher ftp site or books authors im not looking for commercial software rather info on implementation and theory of the subject im planning to make a parametric generator for autocad and i would need some referance everything you know is of interest thanks in advace lasse lars erik stenholm student at the university of stockholm sweden
comp.graphics	d shark hi i m looking for a d shark for use in a ray tracing rountine i m doing i ll be using vivid or pov but it can be in any format are there any ftp sites with d objects or does anyone have a good d shark thanks alot chad new in sea world of ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	disp i have posted disp zip to alt binaries pictures utilities i will upload this package to simtel later you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use if no fee is gained there is no warranty the author is not responsible for any damage caused by this program important changes since version added support for iris support mix concat two images added support for batch conversion added support for load save palette table added support for edge enhance added support for crop one line added support for negate image new color quantization option fix some minor bugs introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats it also let you do some special effects rotation dithering on image its main purpose is to let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show support batch conversion there is no limit on image size currently this program supports bits display if you want to use hicolor or truecolor you must have vesa driver if you want to modify video driver please read section hardware requirement pc or better msdos or higher min amount of ram is m bytes maybe less memory will also work i recommend min m bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description is borrowed from djgpp supported wares up to m of extended memory expanded under vcpi up to m of disk space used for swapping supervga color mode up to x xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such as qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and go exe are borrowed from djgpp if you use western digital vga chips read readme wd this go exe is a modified version for vesa and is completely compatible with original version but some people report that this go exe is not compatible with other djgpp programs in their system if you encounter this problem don t put go exe within search path please read runme bat for how to run this program if you choose xxxxx grn as video driver add nc to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc if you don t have x add emu x xxxxx emu to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grd emu x xxxxx emu notes i only test tr grn et grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested i have modified et grn to support bits display you don t need to use vesa driver if et grn doesn t work please try vesa grn for those who want to use hicolor or truecolor display please use vesa grn except et users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl command line switch usage display d display initial display type s sort sort method h display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key f change disk drive ctrl a ctrl z change disk drive f change filename mask see match doc f change parameters f some effects on picture eg flip rotate f make directory t tag file tag group files see match doc t tag all files u untag file untag group files see match doc u untag all files ins change display type in read screen menu f m m move file s alt m move single file ignore tag f d d delete file s alt d delete single file ignore tag r r rename file c c copy file s alt c copy single file ignore tag z z display first bytes in ascii hex and dec modes f f display disk free space page up down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page up page down scroll image home left most end right most page up top most page down bottom most in screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits ctrl arrow keys crop image by one line in graphics mode s s slide show show tagged files escape to terminate b b batch conversion convert tagged files to single format w w wait pause in slide show alt x quit program without prompting alt a reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pm pm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac iris sgi the extensions in are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm pm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img iris all read write support full color bits grey scale b w dither and bits image if allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type to highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key if you move or copy files you will enter write menu the write menu is much like read menu but only allow you to change directory the header line in read menu includes d xx f xx t xx d display type f number of files t number of tagged files pressing space in read menu will let you select which format to use for reading current file pressing return in read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file is the procedure is first check magic number if fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing s or s in read menu will do slide show if delay time is program will wait until you hit a key except escape if any error occurs program will make a beep w or w to pause any key to continue escape to terminate pressing ins in read menu will change display type pressing alt x in read menu will quit program without prompting pressing f will turn on effect menu once image file is successfully read you will enter screen menu you can do special effect on image pressing return show image in graphic mode press return space or escape to return to text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you to do special effects on bit or bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image to file b w dither save as black white image bit grey scale save as grey image bits full color save as color image bits true color save as bit image this program will ask you some questions if you want to write image to file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you a filename if you want to save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory to what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program is memory greedy if you don t have enough memory the performance is poor if you want to save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then if you want to save bits image lossless try tiff lzw or targa or ilbm or sun raster no one is better for true bits image i recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document is not well written if you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send to u bicmos ee nctu edu tw i need your suggestion to improve this program there is no anonymous ftp on this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written by jih shin ho some subroutines are borrowed from xv and pbmplus dec tiff v and jpeg v reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel or mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want to modify video driver get grx source code from simtel or mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits of colors is set to bits of colors is set to xc bits of colors is set to xc acknowledgment i would like to thank the authors of xv and pbmplus for their permission to let me use their subroutines also i will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp i can t do any thing on pc jih shin ho u bicmos ee nctu edu tw
comp.graphics	re calculating regular polyhedra vertices i d be interested in a copy of this code if you run across it mail to the author bounced hpldsla comp graphics ricky vnet ibm com rick turner am may i fooled around with this problem a few years ago and implemented a simple method that ran on a pc was very simple about or lines of code somewhere i still have it and could dig it out if there was interest rick dan conway dconway hpsid sid hp com
comp.graphics	re siggraph online experimental publication available rich brandwein writes in article may bert eecs uic edu rsc siggraph org steve cunningham writes computer graphics experimental special online issue may the may experimental special issue of computer graphics is online as a set of files on the siggraph org system in the directory ftp publications may online this is made available to the computer graphics community by acm siggraph the general theme of this issue is electronic documents and the table of contents in the aboutthisissue files will tell you more about this publication and its contents i ftp d here but found nothing has this been removed nope it s still there ftp siggraph org connected to siggraph org siggraph org ftp server version tue apr cdt ready name siggraph org rsc anonymous guest login ok send e mail address as password password welcome to siggraph org a machine maintained for acm siggraph by volunteers as a service to the active computer graphics community ftp cd publications may online cwd command successful ftp ls port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list aboutthisissue kappe maurer skip tappan russell gonzalez rosenblum bossomaier green announcements calendar contacts index read me transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s ftp
comp.graphics	cgm garphics viewer wanted i m currently looking for a viewer for computer graphics metafile cgm pictures please inform me about a shareware or freeware version thnx remco jorna kub nl
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for groups which do not fit under the comp or other official hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of the alt groups therefore it is i think desirable to try to create comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an alt group wouter
comp.graphics	bit planes could anyone please explain what bit planes are we have an sgi here at work that says it has bit planes what does this mean how does this relate to pc graphics what do they usually have please reply via email as most of this group is over my head thanks in advance bob gruen structural dynamics research corp cincinnati ohio
comp.graphics	re help ds in article c zv hq ddtopper dundee ncr com stephenc says in d studio is there any way to create refraction diffraction etc i want to simulate such things as glass lenses bottles etc there might be an ipas routine that does that but i can r be sure another way to do it is to render the scene without the glass object and save the image then assign that image to your glass object as a reflection it will take a lot of adjusting for position and size of the reflection but that s the only thing i can think of
comp.graphics	d input devices greetings all does anyone use some form of d input device i would like to hear any information on any systems that people are currently using please email responses i will summarise if i get some feedback brendan langoulant brendan gu uwa edu au
comp.graphics	cfp th int l symp on computer and information sciences call for papers the eighth international symposium on computer and information sciences iscis viii november antalya turkey organized by ehei ecole des hautes etudes en informatique paris france metu middle east technical university ankara turkey in cooperation with ieee computer society turkey chapter ieee turkey section and the following universities bogazici ege hacettepe istanbul teknik yildiz iscis advisory board e arkun e gelenbe u halici e harmanci k inan y karsligil s kuru n yalabik u yarimagan s yilmaz conference chair program co chairs publicity chair erol gelenbe l gun ibm usa ugur halici metu duke university usa r onvural ibm usa halici vm cc metu edu tr erol egr duke edu p quinton irisa france halici trmetu bitnet program committee v akman turkey e alpaydin turkey e arkun turkey i aybay turkey s bilgen turkey a dogac turkey a dogramaci turkey s fdida france j m fourneau france e gelenbe usa g gonenc turkey u halici turkey e harmanci turkey k inan turkey s jaehnischen germany s kuru turkey m nivat france v paschos france n pekergin france j f perrot france m raynal france a stafylopatis greece g stamon france g ucoluk turkey n yalabik turkey publicity committee isik aybay osman basbugoglu semih bilgen emin germen mert sungur iscis viii is the eighth of a series of meetings which have brought together computer scientists and engineers from about twenty countries this year s conference will be held in the beautiful mediterranean resort city of antalya in a region rich in natural as well as historical sites research papers are sought in the following areas theory of computer science computer architecture systems artificial intelligence neural networks graphics and image processing computational mathematics operations research applications databases performance evaluation software engineering computer networks parallelism paper submission full papers are limited to pages and short communications are limited to pages submit five camera ready copies one original and four copies of the paper and an accompanying letter by postal mail only so as to arrive by june to iscis viii attn drs levent gun and raif onvural ibm e b p o box research triangle park nc usa selected papers from iscis viii will be published in the journal information sciences elsevier north holland poster submission submit five camera ready copies of page extended abstract with an accompanying letter by july to the address given above information for required writing format further information and announcements contact iscis viii ugur halici dept of electrical and electronics eng metu ankara turkey tel ext fax email iscis vm cc metu edu tr or iscis trmetu bitnet
comp.graphics	help d reconstruction hi i m new to imaging and my advisor and i would like to do some d reconstructions we take slides biological and image them on a then the software allows us to trace the outline of the objects we want to save the outlines are stored as a tiff file we would like to convert a group of these outlines into a d image we are unsure as to where to begin someone mentioned that if we could convert the tiff into a vector format then we could view them in autocad any help would be greatly appreciated pankaj oberoi spedhead athena mit edu
comp.graphics	tiff i recently read in a book that the tiff version specification was due to be released in the spring of i am interested in finding out about the new features of the tiff spec and if it is out specifically i need to know if tiff supports vq decompression and or image tiling
comp.graphics	image format conversion tool hello does anyone know of an image format conversion tool that will convert a raw bit grey scale image to gif or tif format it would be great if the tool ran on a pc was a windows application and supported other formats but i ll be happy with anything that works attn code l mp robert lafollette dahlgren division naval surface warfare center dahlgren va autovon fax email rlafoll duchamp nswc navy mil rlafoll
comp.graphics	re what is this gl file from article suntv km watson mtsu edu by csjohn watson mtsu edu john wallace i ve got this animation file with a gl extension what is this are there anu ms dos or os programs which will run this file thanks the gl file is an archive containing individual frames or pieces of frames usually stored as pic or clp files fonts and a txt file that tells the grasp animation system how to display it gl stands for grasp library there is probably a detailed discussion of this subject in the alt binaries pictures faq there are freely distributable viewers for gl files and they are usually named grasprt exe replace the with a version digit or letter most gl files contain frames that are hardware specific to particular modes of the cga ega or vga adapters on pcs i think that there are some copies of grasprt available by anonymous ftp i know that i got one there a long time ago good luck jack jack stephenson main e mail j stephenson isuv interlan com racal datacom alternate e mail stephens souv interlan com p o box ft lauderdale fl usa phone
comp.graphics	re vga graphics library in article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics sorts of things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully in the public domain this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non dos operating system running on a standard pc i m also interested in info both public domain and commercial graphics library package to do pc vga graphics i m currently working on a realtime application running on a pcc with a non dos kernel that needs to do some simple graphics i m not sure if reentrancy of the graphics library is going to be an issue or not i suspect i ll implement the display controller as a server process that handles graphics requests queued on a mailbox one at a time if this provides sufficiently frequent display updates then i believe that i can restrict all graphics operations to be performed by the server and thus constrain access to the library to a this single process and avoid the need for a reentrant graphics library being fairly new to the realtime systems world i may be overlooking something what do you think cheers bob fitzsimmons fitz cse ogi edu
comp.graphics	lookin form d model of loom hi folks i m doing an animated film on new methodes in loom research you know the thing they make cloth with and need a model of a loom the format should be in ascii faceted geometry and fairly straight forward to figure out any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks rick boykin rick boykin rboykin cscsparc larc nasa gov computer sciences corporation hampton va so maybe i could be a fly and feed arachnid as i die tom marshall
comp.graphics	re d input devices hello i m interested in those devices too could also send me your suggestions thank in advance regards martin vicente e mail vicente cenaath cena dgac fr tph centre d etudes de la navigation aerienne o o div support informatique developpement
comp.graphics	oriented bounding box generation i m looking for code that will generate a minimum volume oriented bounding box for an arbitrary polyhedron anyone know of such code why i m converting objects from one modelling system into another and the destination system is object oriented so i want to represent each object in its own coordinate system that of its bounding box with the objects then translated and rotated appropriately this being the representation used in the destination system john nagle
comp.graphics	ray bezier intersection problem if some kind person has access to a mathematical package such as mathematica maple i would like to ask you for the solution to the following problem i sometimes have algebra problems like this where i would like a simplified symbolic solution is there a ftp able package out there that can handle such beasts i would like to solve the following ray bezier patch intersection for the scalar constant t in p t v q u w origin point in d dir vector d in terms of only p v p and various scalars origin dir d i j i j where t q u w u n b m w n n n n u u u u u u u u u u in my particular case n n n n t w w w w w w w t w w w in my particular case t n m for my particular case b p p p p control points in d space p p p p p p p p p p p p thanx chuck elwood reston ingr com
comp.graphics	anonymous ftp sites for graphics can someone please give me a couple names of anonymous ftp sites that cater to graphics i am looking for info sources images for building a ray tracer thanks robert woolridge robertw clovis pen tek com
comp.graphics	re point in polygon routine needed andrew lewis tepper at andrew cmu edu writes i don t know if this routine is standard i just came up with it recently for a polygon of points p pn and a point p make a table as follows t angle from p to p to p t angle from p to p to p t n angle from pn to p to p express all angles as pi angle pi add all entries in the table if the sum the point is outside if the sum is pi the point is inside if the point is xpi you have a strange polygon if any angle was pi the point is on the border i think it s known but it s neat can it be extended to d john nagle
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for groups which do not fit under the comp or other official hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of the alt groups therefore it is i think desirable to try to create comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an alt group wouter very good point is there someone out there that is working on this i d offer my time to help manage do it all myself but yaw ll are not going to hear from me over the summer i m not trying to be pushy and there is being progress made re pov mailing list hed advertisement advertisement don t miss this one time only sale sale sale sale h e d tech is now selling thier now model jed series geek bot this is a limited time offer at a reduction from our usual price of dollars buy one now don t wait sale ends sunday advertisement adveritisement
comp.graphics	raw byte grayscale gif i currently have some grayscale image files that are not in any standard format they simply contain the bit pixel values i would like to display these images on a pc the conversion to a gif format would be helpful this conversion can take place either on a pc or on a unix system and i could then download it to the pc can anyone suggest where i can find software to do this alternatively i may have to write my own conversion program in this case could someone tell me where i can find the gif format specification please e mail me directly at shayla shannon jpl nasa gov thanks
comp.graphics	graphics software needed hello we are looking for a graphics package preferably complete with source code that will run on our unix operating system a sequent running dynix this graphics package must support a wide variety of character based graphics devices pc s running a terminal emulator primarily at this point x graphics is not an option this graphics program should if possible support these sorts of graphics operations minimum requirements complicated axes log linear etc with fairly precise axis labels multi line labels etc major and minor tickmarks on axes etc it would be nice if some limited amount of color plotting were available if the output device supported it we have a copy of gnuplot and are currently using it but gnuplot has some limitations we are looking for something more robust than gnuplot at this point i m looking for information about packages that might solve our problems if you have any information please contact me at the above email address if the product you know about is a commercial software package please send a phone number or email address so that i can contact them about pricing etc annette koontz battelle pacific northwest richland wa usa
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed on may gmt wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w said liefting hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now liefting the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for liefting groups which do not fit under the comp or other official liefting hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups liefting like alt gulf war liefting because there is no voting process or any other control liefting facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of liefting the alt groups liefting therefore it is i think desirable to try to create liefting comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an liefting alt group plus many sites especially many com sites do not carry any alt newsgroups we don t for example a comp group will get a much broader distribution and would be useful to many more people plus the topic is important popular enough to warrant its own group imho kent dalton email kent dalton ftcollinsco ncr com ncr microelectronics phone x danfield ct ms a fax fort collins colorado does someone from peoria have a shorter attention span than me
comp.graphics	adobe type manager what good is it the subject says it all i bought adobe type manager and find it completely useless i ftped some atm fonts and couldn t install them what s the use are you supposed to be able to convert atm fonts to truetype if there s anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it useful enlighten me pete
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec kazsato twics co jp writes i d like to know if there is any system cpu hd array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime hdtv has about mb frame so recording playing moving picture will need about mb sec bandwidth i m thinking to treat the raw data not compressed actually for digital hdtv systems that s far higher bandwidth than you need unless there s some reason you must work in fully uncompressed hdtv also my calculations is that each frame should be well under mb even using bits pixel which is more bits than you actually need or should be enough for a moving picture x x bits is mb i m guessing at hdtv resolution it may be a bit wider than i m fairly sure of the number for most of the digital proposals i hope you have a very fast memory system as well mb s while displaying will require a heavily interleaved vram system unless you have a very compelling reason i d advise trying to use at least somewhat compressed data you don t have to go to full compression to get to a level where the data io requirements are much cheaper and easier to deal with gnu emacs is a lisp operating system disguised as a word processor doug mohney in comp arch randell jesup jack of quite a few trades commodore engineering jesup cbmvax commodore com or rutgers cbmvax jesup bix rjesup disclaimer nothing i say is anything other than my personal opinion
comp.graphics	video memory hello i have posted to this newsgroup once before and recieved a moderately helpful response on a couple of issues this i appreciated very much i would however like to know why it is that ther is simply no information out there on some subjects for the relativly novice graphics programmer the subjects are how do you access the extra video memory on a video board i know somwhere there aresome standard video bios calls that allow you to dothis i have meg of memory on my board and according to all the books and info i have read i am only at maximum using k of it there is a way to do this in standard vga cause i have seen vidoe paging written in assembly which i don t know written into apps hat use mode h to get any speed at all you have to do this how do i do it the vesa standard what gives here i have read most of what the net has to offer on vesa and as far as coding for vesa goes most of the advice is cryptic at best where do i get public domain info that will tell me in mostly plain english how the vesa calls work my biggest gripe is about number i have bought graphics books i have asked graphics professors i have hunted the net through both gopher and archie i ahave asked apps programmers and it is like there is some lock on this information graphics programming books tell alot of programmiing algorithm information but they always fall short of telling you how to really control the video bios what are all the calls folks i know there are people out there that know how to doall tis stuff where are you and why haven t you written a book yet please help thanks in advance stephen palm palm snycanva bitnet please send all personal replies to the above address thanks
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec how does the bit color of hdtv work it can not be bit red green and blue like on the macintosh this gives only gray levels apple also has developed a point point network that is around mb not sure if it is bits or bytes per sec povl h pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau dk povlphp uts uni c dk finger me at pope imv aau dk for pgp public key
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go vinci filipe vxcrna cern ch wrote in article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes from article may pony ingres com by mwmeyer ingres com mike wading through the muck and meyer in article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes this is getting pretty silly first off hacker is an obsolete term doesn t matter what it used to mean today it means thief it only means thief if you want it to mean that to me it means lots of context wickedly omitted by myself anyway if i say joe is a hacker to most english speaking people who know the word they ll probably think he is either a poor golfer or a bad carpenter but there are very very few people who will think he is a good and clever programmer if you chose to call yourself by a term that means thief don t be surprised when people think you are a thief even if you don t agree with that definition of the word the narrower view that a hacker when associated with the computing environment is a dishonest expert is not so widespread i m my opinion at least with the people involved with the field imho the wider meaning is not obsolete at all no matter how much the lay press would like it to be therefore i conclude that if you call yourself a hacker and somebody perceives you as a thief then this person belongs to a very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough to know the wider and original meaning of the word unfortunately the general public has a very narrow view of the deep dark recesses of the art of computing what little they do see is from the view given to them by the media from what i have seen from the media hacker is not a proper way by which to refer to a respected person i on the other hand know what hacker means from those who consider themselves such following is the definition from jargon file this is also known as the hackers dictionary the definitions are arranged in order of decreasing frequency of usage hacker originally someone who makes furniture with an axe n a person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities as opposed to most users who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary one who programs enthusiastically even obsessively or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming a person capable of appreciating hack value a person who is good at programming quickly an expert at a particular program or one who frequently does work using it or on it as in a unix hacker definitions through are correlated and people who fit them congregate an expert or enthusiast of any kind one might be an astronomy hacker for example one who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations deprecated a malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around hence password hacker network hacker see cracker the term hacker also tends to connote membership in the global community defined by the net see network the and internet address it also implies that the person described is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker ehic see hacker ethic the it is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe oneself that way hackers consider themselves something of an elite a meritocracy based on ability though one to which new members are gladly welcome there is thus a certain ego satisfaction to be had in identifying yourself as a hacker but if you claim to be one and are not you ll quickly be labeled bogus see also wannabee hacker ethic the n the belief that information sharing is a powerful positive good and that it is an ethical duty of hackers to share their expertise by writing free software and facilitating access to information and to computing resources wherever possible the belief that system cracking for fun and exploration is ethically ok as long as the cracker commits no theft vandalism or breach of confidentiality both of these normative ethical principles are widely but by no means universally accepted among hackers most hackers subscribe to the hacker ethic in sense and many act on it by writing and giving away free software a few go further and assert that all information should be free and any proprietary control of it is bad this is the philosophy behind the gnu project sense is more controversial some people consider the act of cracking itself to be unethical like breaking and entering but this principle at least moderates the behavior of people who see themselves as benign crackers see also samurai on this view it is one of the highest forms of hackerly courtesy to a break into a system and then b explain to the sysop preferably by email from a superuser account exactly how it was done and how the hole can be plugged acting as an unpaid an unsolicited tiger team the most reliable manifestation of either version of the hacker ethic is that almost all hackers are actively willing to share technical tricks software and where possible computing resources with other hackers huge cooperative networks such as usenet fidonet and internet see internet address can function without central control because of this trait they both rely on and reinforce a sense of community that may be hackerdom s most valuable intangible asset finally a true hacker does not name himself herself one for this is a title that is bestowed by the befuddled sysadmins and users at large to me a sign of a truly great hacker is to be introduced to someone who says nahh i just know a thing or two people always exagerate note that the above definition does not preclude a hacker from describing limself meaning himself herself one but simply says that it is better not to do so there are many who do not know the meaning of hacker so in order to defend the true meaning of the word it is sometimes necessary to borrow on the reputation of a known respected hacker around the workplace this means that hacker is defined in terms of some well known and respected person sometimes there may only be one such person no matter what mr dumpty says language doesn t work that way actually it does you just have to get adequate press coverage language works anyway that we want it to work the purpose of language is to communicate to oversimplify as long as communication is taking place then language is working include stddisclaimer h amiga the computer for the creative mind tm commodore weber state macintosh the computer for the rest of us tm apple university i think therefore i amiga val csulx weber edu ogden ut usa
comp.graphics	iges and e formats i am trying to find out anything i can about available documentation for iges and e arc info formats if you know anything about these formats or just one please send me a note i don t read this group so please send responses to mike prc utexas edu thank you mike kline
comp.graphics	re adobe type manager what good is it menchett dws unr edu peter j menchetti writes the subject says it all i bought adobe type manager and find it completely useless i ftped some atm fonts and couldn t install them what s the use are you supposed to be able to convert atm fonts to truetype if there s anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it useful enlighten me pete there are some tricks to installing atm to windows install them first to dos then run the atm control panel to get them into windows the best reason for atm is that adobe is the standard truetype is a failed ms venture to undercut adobe when adobe was being nasty about keeping their formats proprietary just about any service bureau or print shop will smirk and send you on your way if you bring a truetype document to them for high resolution printing or ripping although there are lots of pretty tt fonts floating around they are really for dot matrix or your own lazer printer however you can convert your tt fonts with fontmonger or some similar program to atm fonts for high end stuff if you are using dot matrix for all your printing you may have wasted your money dave
comp.graphics	how to print out ncar s cgm file i have a lots of cgm files produced by ncar graph utility v they are all color graphs and i want to print them out the printers i own are postscript and hp a anyone who have experiences in this please tell me e mail me will be very nice or if someone knows how to convert those cgm files into gif pcx bmp it will helps a lot
comp.graphics	needed non interactive gif cropper for pc i have a group of gif images that each contain small images in the same place on all the images i need a program to crop out the small images to a new gif file all the programs i can find make me use the mouse or keyboard to define the cropping coordinates is there a program out there for a pc that can take the crop coordinates on the command line reply to max slinky cs nyu edu david max
comp.graphics	dec or pc graphics tools i am applying for an nsf grant to buy equipment for a laboratory the lab will need to support c or pascal with graphics tools we can run the lab either on pc s or dec equipment if you are familiar with appropriate products software hardware and precise prices please contact shai lcc stonehill edu we are interested in any available acadmic discounts also if anyone runs a lab using similar software hardware i would be very interested in hearing your opinions of its success thanks shai simonson stonehill college n easton ma e
comp.graphics	re email address of ithaca hoops ithaca technical support can be reached at tech support ithaca com or by phone at eric wagner pp asel ia ithaca software skylane n wd eric ithaca com oakland flyers
comp.graphics	re d head model not again groan o k sorry to post a question which seems to crop up quite regularly in this group however i have yet to get a specific and usefull in my context answer to where i can get hold of d data for a head what i am looking for simple polyon description of head face which can be easily converted for or used with pov raytracer i e polygons well i am placing a file at my ftp today that contains several polygonal descriptions of a head face skull vase etc the format of the files is a list of vertices normals and triangles there are various resolutions and the name of the data file includes the number of polygons eg phred k vbl contains polygons in order to get the data via ftp do the following ftp taurus cs nps navy mil login as anonymous guest as the password cd pub dabro binary get cyber tar z once you get the data onto your workstation uncompress data tar z tar xvof data tar if you have any questions please let me know george dabro dabro taurus cs nps navy mil george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
comp.graphics	piclab processing half a gif i ve been playing with a program called piclab to modify some gif files the problem is it keeps displaying only of the image starting from the top it displays leaves blank then down another etc anyone know what i m doing wrong or is there another piece of software i should use instead thanks for your tolerance
comp.graphics	re cgm files in article meyer may ibsen geomatic no meyer geomatic no harald martens meyer writes the only book i ve found on the cgm format is cgm and cgi by d b arnold p r bono from springer verlag isbn it s not the best book i ve read though well there is the standards document from the faq how to order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office is at mailing address is broadway ny ny it helps if you have the complete name and number some useful numbers to know cgm computer graphics metafile is iso gks graphical kernel system is ansi x if you want a viewer try downloading ralcgm from unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z you might also want to look at gplot from the folks at the pittsburgh supercomputer center fish around at calpe psc edu it is pretty nifty spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca a naked lunch is natural to us we eat reality sandwiches but allegories are so much lettuce don t hide the madness allen ginsberg
comp.graphics	help hi there i am here looking for some help my friend is a interior decor designer he is from thailand he is trying to find some graphics software on pc any suggestion on which software to buy where to buy and how much it costs he likes the most sophisticated software the more features it has the better thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes from rlister cti com russell lister subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse date fri apr gmt ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i ve seen this problem several times it was always the result of the little rollers inside the mouse becomming dirty they are good at collecting grime the solution is simple remove the ball to reveal the two rollers carefully clean them and the ball dennis
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos window macros in article apr csd newshost stanford edu herrod cs stanford edu stephen herrod writes does anyone know a program that will record keyboard sequences that i do in a windowed dos box i would like to have something that starts a telnet program and then logs me into my accounts windows recorder doesn t seem to be able to record the key sequences thanks steve i think you would need a dos macro program superkey by borland comes to mind i don t think windows is capable of sending keystrokes to a dos window what you want to do sounds like a security problem to me though tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager problem does anyone know how to configure a dos app in progman so that only one instance of it can be running at a time i d really appreciate some help on how to do this i would prefer responses through email if it s not a big deal or at least through email as well as posting thank you james e lee jelee hamlet ucdavis edu i swear by my life and my love of it that i will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine john galt atlas shrugged
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re actix video card drivers for windows in apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel y h wong writes i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how do you like it so far good but where are these drivers daniel y h wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese cheers kym kym a burgemeister department of mechanical engineering university of adelaide south australia ph facs e mail to kburg aelmg adelaide edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript at dpi using a windows printer driver i would like to print to a file with output as a postscript file later i would like to take this postscript file to a machine with an attached hewlett packard m laser printer and print the document at dots per inch resolution i would like to use this method to print from wordperfect for windows and from an image processing program that can output images in postscript here s the problem the windows postscript printer driver pscript drv doesn t allow me to specify dpi in fact the setup dialog for this driver does have a pull down menu for resolution but the only choice given in the menu is not a really useful menu any ideas david arnstein arnstein iis sun com international imaging systems milpitas california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win locations in article apr bert eecs uic edu you write cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip is on cica but i m not sure of the whole directory another to throw into the running is topdesk it is alsow on cica but i m not sure where it is more complicated then backdesk but i ve found it to be more stable and more usefull i recomend it to people who have already used a virtual desktop oh yeh it s free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu ok here are some usefull applications and locations and other on cica or mirrors in the desktop directory wrksft zip wokshift graphical virtual desktop ver email author about version desk zip desktop tools for windows x backmenu bigdesk later version than backdesk topdesk zip virtual windows for windows finder zip a mac finder clone for windows works well with backmenu also look out for superbar due out soon it allows button bars to be added to almost any application o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting up a slip client under dos and windows long i have been posting monthly how to setup a slip client on a pc posts for a few months lots of work and imminent graduation have come in the way of posting one of these for march or earlier this month for which i apologize this file includes information on writing a script for university of minnesota phone and also a batch file hack that lets you use other packet drivers with phone for additions modifications and corrections i can be reached at ashok biochemistry cwru edu best wishes ashok begin slip txt based on my experiences on setting up slip under dos and windows here are my comments on setting up slip in this environment i thank the trumpet beta testers and the cwru slip beta testers for their comments configuring your modem a turn off dtr at d w i have to disable dtr because the communication program that i use to dial my slip server qmodem drops dtr when i exit the program and therefore hangs up the line if you use a program like kermit or conex to establish the slip connection then this need not be done these programs do not necessarily hangup the line when you exit note if you use univ of minn phone to dial and establish a slip connection you do not need to turn off dtr b dial and establish the slip connection first this can be done automatically if you use a program like phone from the university of minnesota which will dial and establish a slip connection then load the slip packet driver the phone scripting language is simple and phone scripts can be easily written to configure phone to work with other slip server in addition while the only packet driver that phone works with is umslip currently it is easy to write a batch file hack that lets phone work with other packet drivers there is a section on phone in the document with both script and batch file examples configuring the slip drivers there are five slip packet drivers commonly available cslipper exe peter tattam s compressed slip driver slipper exe peter tattam s slip driver slip com crynwr driver i like phil burn s modified driver ethersl com crynwr driver ethernet simulation over slip umslip com univ of minnesota driver based on slip of these four i vastly prefer c slipper exe over slip com or ethersl com for the following reasons a it is much faster even though my modem has just a uart b while using etherslip slip umslip myself and several others have noticed that the pc clock gets messed up after performing a long ftp transfer c it supports pktmux when used in ethernet simulation mode d when used in ethernet simulation mode c slipper seem to work with every tcp ip application that i have tested it with instructions for c slipper exe and you do not use phone a load slipper in your autoexec bat file according to instructions for instance if you have a v bis modem on com slipper com vec baud b if you use dos tcp ip applications in win dos boxes then use the double ended packet driver shim winpkt com this creates a virtual packet driver at x dos applications in native mode dos applications in windows dos boxes and windows applications can all use this virtual driver at x winpkt com x x c if you use qvt net load pktint com next qvt net is configured in qvtnet ini to use the interrupt at x pktint com instructions for slip com a try getting a version slip driver philip burns of northwestern university has a modified slip com driver that is better at hardware handshaking this driver is distributed along with nupop b load the driver after establishing the slip connection my modem is a v bis modem on com so here is how i would load the driver slip w x h slip x f c as discussed above if you use dos tcp ip applications in windows x dos boxes you probably want to use winpkt com winpkt com x x d if you use winqvt net load pktint com pktint com instructions for ethersl com if you choose to use ethersl com instead of slip com the instructions are exactly the same with one crucial difference you will have to delete the line device vcd from the enh section of system ini this will interfere with running regular windows comm applications such as crosstalk and you will get lots of dropped characters etc in these applications this is therefore not recommended etherslip would be loaded as ethersl w x h x f configuring windows a make the following modifications to the system ini file enh section i list all your com ports with their addresses and interrupts com base f com irq com base f com irq com base e com irq this can also be done from within windows control panel but double clicking on the ports icon ii give the port to which your modem is attached a generous com buffer com buffer iii change the com port autoassign value for the com port that you wish to use for your modem to zero this is the amount of time that windows waits in seconds before handing control of that com port to another application if you use winqvt net and then want to switch from one session to another and this value is at the default value of seconds you are will get a gpf and windows will crash com autoassign this can also be done from within windows control panel double click on enhanced and under device contention set the device contention for the com port your modem is on to never warn additional notes what to do if you are assigned a different ip address for each slip session i am fortunate in that our campus slip server assigns each user a permanent ip address so i do not have worry about editing qvtnet ini each time that i establish a slip connection if you are assigned a new ip address on every occasion that you dial in please try to use bootp aware software and let bootp do the configuration for you however qvtnet is not bootp aware and rarp will not work over a slip connection to get qvtnet working in a situation such as this you must do the following edit the qvtnet ini file let the net section look like this net name ip netmask or whatever is appropriate for you arptime packet vector or whatever is appropriate save the changes and then write protect this file attrib r qvtnet ini start your slip connection and remember the name and ip address that you are assigned each time you start qvt net x the general configuration dialog box will open enter the name and ip address and you were assigned for that session click on ok and you should be up and running the changes you make will not be saved as qvtnet ini is write protected a more elegant solution to the problem of dynamic slip ip address assignment is provided by victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu victor uses the program bootpq to semi automate qvtnet preparation bootpq is used to inquire the assigned ip which is then saved to a file called myip another file noip is essentially a complete qvtnet ini file that lacks the ip address in the final step myip and noip are copied into a single qvtnet ini file an example of victor s batch file is provided below slipper com pktint com bootpq i ip s myip bootpq i my ip is s copy q net myip noip e com qvtnet qvtnet ini del q myip echo off echo echo ready to run winqvtnet for questions and more details about bootpq please contact victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu qpc software is attempting to add bootp capability to winqvt net how do you use pktmux over slip pktmux will not work over the slip com packet driver and crashes immediately if used with ethersl com pktmux will work with c slipper exe when c slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode an example of this configuration is shown below the latest release of pktmux is c and it is important that you use this version if you want to use virtual packet drivers with applications like trumpet for windows to be released very shortly from autoexec bat lh c slipper com vec baud ether packet driver lh pktmux pktmux loaded for virtual packet drivers lh pktdrv f first virtual packet driver used for qvt net lh pktint com qvt net pktint com pktdrv pktdrv for use in native dos or wintrumpet additional virtual packet drivers can be loaded directly from within windows dos boxes for example my pif file to load popmail is directed to the file popmail bat this is what popmail bat reads like pktdrv loads a virtual packet driver at x cd popmail popmail cd pktdrv u unloads the packet driver at x exit causes the dos window to close i have similar batch files that load other dos tcp ip applications like pc gopher it is my experience that pktmux works fine even if the virtual packet drivers in two independent virtual dos sessions are loaded at the same software interrupt for example within two different dos boxes one for popmail and the other for gopher the virtual packet driver pktdrv is loaded at x in each instance how much does pktmux degrade the performance of c slipper i have a v bis v bis modem in a running windows with a reasonably fast video card ati graphics ultra under these conditions when i have three virtual packet drivers loaded and being used as follows a driver at x f qvtnet ftp client session b driver at x in one dos window cutcp tn session c driver at x in another dos window trumpet for dos i get ftp transfer rates of kb sec while transferring compressed files this rate is comparable to that which i get with slip loaded as a packet driver and where a single tcp ip session is active if cslipper is used a packet driver and a single session is active i get transfer rates of kb sec on the same files while there is about degradation in the performance of slipper for me the benefits of being able to use pktmux outweigh the performance hit c slipper and ethernet simulation mode in ethernet simulation mode c slipper ver works with all the applications that i have tested it with one or two applications that required ethernet simulation balked at c slipper but even these rare problems have been resolved with ver when slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode and used with pktmux i get some an error message in the qvtnet console window that reads ip incorrect packet type or ip bad version number this does not seem to prevent qvtnet from functioning although i cannot comment on loss of performance what can you do if your dos tcp ip application does not work with c slipper in ethernet simulation mode in the rare event that you find a package that does not work with c slipper in ethernet simulation mode first contact the author peter tattam peter psychnet psychol utas edu au and let him know chances are that he can fix it in the meanwhile you can try the following i do not know if it is kosher but it worked when i had problems with c slipper ver c slipper is loaded at x as described above under the pktmux section i load ethersl com at x run the application and then terminate ethersl com this also works within windows virtual dos boxes however a packet driver like ethersl can be used in only one virtual dos box at a time so for example here is my batch file to run grateful med a medical reference retrieval program developed at the national library of medicine ethersl w x h x f loads etherslip cd gm search cd termin x terminates etherslip exit closes the dos box and returns me to windows if you use this method be cautious about one thing don t have any active pktmux dos sessions open at the same time after closing the ethersl window you can run your pktmux dos sessions with no problem btw the example above grateful med works with no problems with c slipper ver phone script files the documentation that accompany phone provide good instructions on writing script files to get phone to dial slip servers other than the university of minnesota server for example here is a script that i use to dial a cisco server at the university that i attend background to start a slip connection i dial our terminal server and login with a username and password after doing so i start a slip session with the following command slip username slip dialin cwru edu followed by my password again here then is the relevant portion of the phone cmd script file cwru ts slip login script by ashok aiyar last revised procedure host cwru login timeout cwru ts terminal server is not responding message cwru ts slip login script version message waiting for slip server to respond quiet on expect verification message request for user verification received from cwru ts message sending your user name and password quiet off expect username send u expect password private send p reject access denied your user name or password was not accepted timeout slip server did not respond to your validation request expect cwru ts send slip timeout slip server did not respond to slip command expect ip hostname or address send u slip dialin cwru edu timeout slip server did not respond to hostname reject bad ip address incorrect hostname expect password send p reject access denied password not accepted timeout expect header compression will match your system message login to cwru slip server successful wait endprocedure host cwru login procedure host cwru logout nothing special needs to be done to logout endprocedure host cwru logout end of script file how to use packet drivers other than umslip with phone the quick answer there is no clean way below is a batch file hack that i wrote to use phone with other packet drivers in this example the packet driver is peter tattam s cslipper to use a batch file like this you must know the parameters with which you plan to use the packet driver i e interrupt vector baud rate port address and irq this batch file requires umslip com cslipper exe and termin com to be in the same directory or in your path all that the batch file does is to let you dial the slip connection using phone load the appropriate packet driver hangup the connection and unload the driver when you are done being cwruslip bat echo off rem this batch file is an ugly hack of u of minn slip bat rem awaiting a version of c slipper that can directly interact rem with phone rem cwruslip bat file is used with phone exe to start a slip rem connection on cwru ts rem last modified ashok aiyar echo off cls goto start start if goto help if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if hangup goto forceh if quit goto forceh if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if quit goto forceh goto bogus goto unload forceh termin x umslip nul phone force hangup goto unload slipper termin x rem the following line must be changed to reflect the com port rem irq baud rate and software interrupt lh c packet cslipper com vec baud ether goto end forced termin x umslip nul phone force dial goto slipper setup termin x umslip nul phone setup goto help unload termin x goto end bogus echo is not a valid command echo try cwruslip help for a list of valid commands echo help echo echo case western reserve university slip setup echo using univ of minnesota phone echo echo cwruslip setup modem settings phone number username etc echo echo cwruslip dial dial and establish the slip connection echo cwruslip quit hangup the phone and unload the driver echo cwruslip help this screen echo end end cwruslip bat where to get what peter tattam s programs are archived at ftp utas edu au c slipper and the trumpet set of programs winqvt net is generally archived at most windows ftp sites including ftp cica indiana edu ncsa telnet is archived at ftp ncsa uiuc edu nupop is archived at ftp acns nwu edu popmail pc slipdisk phone and pc gopher are archived at boombox micro umn edu end slip txt ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve in article syshtg gsusgi gsu edu syshtg gsusgi gsu edu tom gillman writes cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access to send a message to a compuserve user via internet e mail enter the mail mode and address your receiver as follows compuserve com the number is the receiver s compuserve i d number if the users number contains a comma or anything other than a period change it to a period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	msdos prompt problem i am having a really bothersome problem using the msdos prompt in windows to open a dos box when i am done with the dos box i cant get back to windows if i do alt enter to shrink the box or use exit to close it the screen goes black and i have to control alt delete until i kill windows i get a couple of screens about app not responding i think things are still alive under the black screen because if i alt tab to cycle through the running apps i get flashes of text but then the black returns this persists even if the machine is powered on and off i am working with an app developed using borland s application frameworks and c it seems to work fine hardware is a with meg ram not on a network video is a tseng vga dos i reinstalled windows a couple of time but the problem comes back i am using temporary swapping for virtual memory i would really really appreciate any hints anyone might offer thanks jim cant
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew well this is only a guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds x y c where x pixel number in th ex direction y pixel number in the y dir c colour pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	newsgroup archive is this newsgroup archived anywhere beyond the normal expiration dates say for the last months or more thanks tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trouble with sound blaster pro drivers in article kaz vincent iastate edu kaz iastate edu errington shroud writes recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for a long time and don t know what the problem could be thanks i had this problem when i initially installed my sound blaster pro and here s what the tech support told me they told me to look for the files that are stated in the readme file from the win subdirectory of the soudblaster directory now look in the system ini file and if any of them say device xxxxxxx than change it to device xxxxxxx thats should work was your system ini file erased for some reason that would be the only reason that i would think that windoes is giving you the error now tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hiragana katakana tt fonts newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hiragana katakana tt fonts keywords hiragana katakana truetype japanese where can i obtain truetype hiragana and katakana japanese phonetic character fonts note i can receive mail at the address in the header but i cannot send kw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	standard and enhanced question why is win sometimes so finicky i have a new dell dx mhz megs ram windows was working just great i had a bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time now with the new motherboard and all it still does the same thing the computer is less than one month old at first it worked fine i can get into windows each time now with the win s command this forces standard mode things seem to run slower i mainly use windows apps but in standard mode there is no virtual mem plus it is slower i re loaded windows it still does the same thing should i first delete everything in all windows dir s i did not because i have so much added in sub dir s etc really puzzling why enhanced mode would not load each time but consistently every other time standard mode each time any thoughts or comments c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program manager and file manager hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win s program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for e mail response yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re video cards with bnc connectors sam ms uky edu mike mills writes hello i just recently bought a nec fg in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates i d like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors as opposed to the usual d sub connector i do not know of any vga type cards that have bnc outputs but extron sells a vga to bnc cable set that works good with my fg if you are trying to optimize the display with a good video card try contacting get nine i use and like the level card thanks for any information mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam uk math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home mark marlow marlow world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	true type font problem repost please help word c doesn t show the period centred character to indicate spaces if i use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box they overlap each other and characters on each side which is useless i believe the character used by w w is the period centred this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this i have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w w altering the paragraph or cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however is the w w character used to indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boot up sometimes fails sometimes when i boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs i am using dos and doublespace and a meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when i press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean andrew l roberts robertsa unix tcd ie wrote what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew try the windows multimedia development kit it has most of the file formats defined
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re stealth video drivers in article doug sun sws uiuc edu doug sun sws uiuc edu doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth i tried the drivers at cica and they don t work the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost meg and it would take a while to download them at baud any information would be appreciated please contact me at doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward i have the same problem with a diamond stealth vram card daniel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver wanted hello i m looking for a driver for an ibm color ink jet printer any pointers are welcome thanks in advance ralf huebner informatik uni stuttgart de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu wrote in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information well this is only a guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds x y c where x pixel number in th ex direction y pixel number in the y dir c colour come on fellows the format is quite plainly explained in the manuals it s in the programmer s reference volume messages structures and macros msc dev kit for should be also in the borland s manuals pages depending what you need first there is the bitmapfileheader struct then the bitmapinfo which contains the bitmapinfoheader and the rgbquad and then the bitmap data and there is also a example among the example files ms sdk hope this helps yes i do have some prior knowledge in this there is nothing dangerous in these dragons they are totally harmless but my opinion is that kicking them might not be the right way to test it so shut up and run pjsinc sunrise oulu fi pjsinc phoenix oulu fi pjsinc tolsun oulu fi if it s possible that there are some opinions above they must be all mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary canon bj vs hp deskjet hello again about a week and one half ago i posted a query looking for people feelings on the inkjet family of printers specifically a comparison between the canon bj bubblejet and the hewlett packard deskjet many people asked me to post the summary account of all the postings and e mail i received below is my original query and the responses i received i have not deleted any part of the responses only the headers and signatures so you can extract what you find necessary some people asked me for an unbiased account however the very nature of the question suggests favoritism and biased comments you must extract the information you believe unbiased and a fair representation of each printer there are a wide range of comments each has its own value there was no clear winner some like the bj especially its price performance ratio others preferred the durability and reliability of the deskjet the original inkjet with proven drivers and a solid background two new inkjet printers have drawn some attention a new printer to be introduced by hewlett packard later this year around summertime and an addition to the epson product line their first inkjet you will find that after the initial purchase the costs of re filling or replacing the ink cartridges are about the same this largely depends on where you purchase the re fills or replacements so shop around first since this aspect will most likely dominate the cost of your printer no one mentioned approx how many sheets each ink cartridge will print but i suspect they are roughly equal at about sheets laser printers will do sheets per toner cartridge well that s a brief research summary of my personal research enjoy hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad well i bought the bj about a month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn t be beat anywhere i looked and i think it s a hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has m ram installed i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as i used print manager in windows i showed the output to several people at work and one manager bought one immediately for his office and two other engineers placed their orders too if you need cdw s phone number it s delivery to ny was two days good luck craig witkowski ceng maccvm corp mot com motorola communications electronics inc glen rock nj i own a deskjet performance isn t spectacular under windows using truetype fonts but neither is the canon from what i have seen quality for the hp is very much dependent on paper quality on standard photo copy paper the characters have slightly frayed edges but on better quality distinction type paper things look better for most applications i find copy paper fine still better than dot matrix comes with a windows driver which seems to by pass print manager has a few intelli fonts which are hp scaleable fonts probably faster than truetype but haven t really tried them out can get ram font cartridges but unless the speed of truetype is a problem i wouldn t bother the ram cartridges can t be used as buffer soft fonts only for graphics i e bmp images etc the hp can be put into a dither mode via the hp supplied win driver there a number of dither options such as scatter pattern etc the manual gives recommendations depending on the type of image being printed text is not so good in this mode problem arises when you have a document which contains both graphic and text the range of tones for graphic images isn t brilliant but i think that is more of a limitation with inkjet printers in general from what i have seen the canon is similar in most respects however a printer definitely worth looking at is the new inkjet from epson this printer is faster cheaper and capable of producing laser like quality on normal copier paper can t remember the model lx something i think i purchased my hp days before the epson was released here the introductory price on the epson was the same as the hp here in new zealand about a month ago i got a canon bj i absolutely love it it is incredibly fast except for printing from pspice i don t know if you ever do stuff with that or not most of the stuff i print is either from microsoft word for windows or just plain text the only problems i ve had are printing headers footers the printer freaked out and printing on cheap paper lots of streaks normal copy paper works great with it you can only tell it s not laser printed by holding it oh less than twelve inches from your face that is if you re nearsighted like me the printer comes with its own driver for windows i have no other complaints the printer also can act just like some epson or another for those archaic software packages that haven t written a driver for it yet the teeny weeny footprint is a real plus too and if you purchase it between now and may you get a rebate from canon i bought mine from a store called compusa and the price now is i have a friend who has the hp you are looking at it also prints very well and everyone has drivers for it but it is very slow hope i helped dpi sure looks great heather stehman in article apr schbbs mot com ceng maccvm corp mot com craig witkowski writes in message apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson various questions deleted well i bought the bj about a month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn t be beat anywhere i looked and i think it s a hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has m ram installed i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as i used print manager in windows i guess i have some experience with both i have a bj at work and a deskjet at home i prefer the deskjet the printing speed and quality are similar i tested both with text and graphics before buying the deskjet for home the feature that sets the deskjet apart is the driver support in so many applications the bj ends up emulating the epson lq or ibm proprinter to get it to work with many non windows apps and this will be the case for a long time the design is superior if you just want to use cut paper the deskjet is quieter and the ink cartridges are quite a bit cheaper due to the number of deskjets out there in comparision to the bjs just my worth mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto p o box luling la internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com yes there is the landscape mode printing problem but it does not present a problem in windows as the windows printer driver handles the translation i actually thought of some other points after i posted the note the deskjet has an unprintable area of approximately inch around the paper the bubblejet does not you are right about the graphics resolutions i tested the printers with the applications i had access to wordperfect harvard graphics wingif paintshop pro and paintbrush and could not tell a difference in fact one of the hp deskjet windows drivers gives you significant control over the contrast and density of the printer hence controlling the amount of ink you put down the bubblejet did not i had no imaging software to test the printers with and so had no comparision there finally i wanted sheet feeding in that configuration the bubblejet cost approximately more than the deskjet i went through a pretty thorough evaluation and chose the deskjet when i spent my own money btw i am replacing the bj with a deskjet at work this month anyway regards mike mattix ag group of monsanto luling la i spent some time comparing the two we ended up getting the bubblejet bj versus the hp our reasons were the hp seemed to have worse banding than the canon dpi versus we felt we could see the difference price canon has a rebate program going on at the moment the bj was our choice over the bj ex we could have pages in the bj feeder the bj ex holds only pages i think as you can see up to pages on the bj we haven t done anything big with the bj but its performance seems reasonable under windows i know that the microsoft bbs has a newer windows driver than comes with the printer but i don t know how it compares also the driver included with the printer is canon s whereas i don t know where the microsoft bbs one comes from microsoft hope this helps thomas v frauenhofer wa yyw tvf cci com uunet uupsi cci tvf tvf cs rit edu mandlebratwurst the meal that eats itself altough i m sometimes also a salesperson if i m not suppost to study i would recommend to buy the bj the printing quality is a bit better but you you ve got much more possiblities don t forget the hp engine is at least years on the marked the canon engine witch is also used in other new bubblejet printers like e g the epson ones is quite recently available now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better i ve seen during a short demonstration from someone who tryed to sell me canon printers times the same picture one printed with the bj one with the canon the other with the hp and there was a difference in printing quality the canon was a bit better greetz kris when we decided we needed quiet printers in our hospital we looked to inkjet printers they have near laser quality speed and they are quiet we use both hp deskjets and the canon bj s i prefer the paper handling qualities of the deskjets but i feel the canons have superior print quality the ideal would be a canon with a sheet feeder however i did end up buying a deskjet for home use got too good a deal anyway we are using canons in high volume areas and they are holding up very well out of deskjets and bj s i have only had one problem with a deskjet and that was taken care of very quickly by hp nate whenever i buy anything i look at what the experts say pick out the top few and then buy on whatever criteria are the most apt i ve been unusually flush lately no begging letter please and so i ve done this a few times including about four months ago with inkjet printers i can t remember much about the process except that i read about three reviews of inkjets and that the was always at or near the top i bought the c because of the added dimension of colour i intend to build a multi media machine at some stage and have just bought a colour scanner towards that although i haven s used the colour thing in earnest yet i tried it out on a couple of windows bitmaps and i was pleased with the result i note that even though you can now get the c the one with both colour and mono with no need to change the cartridge the c and are still readily available at least in the uk the following are my views experience i don t know anything about the canon except that i came away from reviews and replies to a posting similar to yours with the idea that the hp offered the best performance price ratio i believe hp are the originals in the field not always the ideal place to be but the market s still young so one assumes they have the expertise the c is worth the extra operation in mono is perfectly acceptable and i get good crisp reproduction of fonts from windows i used to work for monotype when they still manufactured typesetters before their american owners closed them down and i can tell you that in terms of definition dpi is pretty poor anyway so dpi is just a bit less poor the hp comes with a reasonable set of drivers if you buy it invest in the additional ram pack it s pretty slow with it god knows what it s like without i actually work in germany and my pc is home in the uk so it s not in daily use i would say that apart from my not reading the manual properly and having a really dumb problem at the start it s easy peasy to operate hope this is of use regards david just bought the bj i thought the price couldn t be beat with rebate thru and so far it is comparable even superior to the deskjet in print quality speed per page rate seems to be faster i don t have figures i don t print long docs though quality i think the graphics quality is excellent print quality is excellent as well unless you use small fonts and hold it up close you can see a lot more jaggies than on a laserjet the dpi is offset by a little less accuracy in holding the page print head in place i would imagine large docs not room in the standard model for a whole lotta pages manual says up to though haven t tried it drivers no problems under win yet winword doesn t want to print the envelopes the same way the canon does though know nothing of add on costs daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications wow it s funny you should ask this i m a little behind in news reading so i know this may be late i just purchased the canon bubblejet last night i was really worried that i wouldn t like it but the print quality and noise level is fantastic i printed quite a few documents with lots of graphics and it printed damn near laser quality you can t tell it s not laser unless you get inches from the page no problems with drivers the printer came with the driver diskette which is good because i was beginning to panic when i couldn t findi it under windows or wordperfect it works well under both i have yet to install word for windows so don t know how it works with them i had a deskjet at work last year it was a good printer as well ut i felt it was awfully slow and much noisier than the bubblejet i won t say the bubblejet is much better but i really do like it more just my worth brett sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question on eisa video board performance i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits since they are not why would anyone me included pay a higher cost for a eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that a much cheaper isa video board such as a diamond speedstar x from pc magazine s i think recent report i know that ati makes a pretty fast eisa video card but it s around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for i could get a diamond viper and still have left over of course i d have to get a local bus mother board too can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in article rfdkqinn s zephyr grace cri nz maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston writes path kth se sunic pipex uunet noc near net howland reston ans net wupost waikato ac nz comp vuw ac nz zephyr grace cri nz zephyr grace cri nz usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re need longer filenames message id rfdkqinn s zephyr grace cri nz from maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston date mon apr gmt sender maystonr grace cri nz references apr guinness idbsu edu d t infoserv com distribution world organization industrial research ltd new zealand nntp posting host rmayston grace cri nz lines in article d t infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy a mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents i heard of a wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than i do
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re standard and enhanced question ak cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes why is win sometimes so finicky i have a new dell dx mhz megs ram windows was working just great i had a bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time much deleted any thoughts or comments sounds like a memory conflict problem which can cause truly weird symptoms like these call dell tech support or better post to them on cserve if you have an account and get the memory range s used by video ram on your machine the block windows from using those ranges with an emmexclude statement in the enh section of system ini you probably should include a statement excluding the same range from emm or whatever memory manager you use in config sys dell installs windows on the machines they ship but the installation doesn t consist of much more than copying the files to a hard disk you still have to do the work and the fact that you have the problem in enhanced mode but not standard strongly suggests a high memory conflict
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions from article kou raijbh h axion uucp by wefiii axion uucp warren e fridy iii in apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f you might try the recorder and make a micro now isn t that just amazing seriously add program manager to your startup group and define a shortcut for it works zi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screenreading programs for ms windows hi i use a pc with a screen access program ibm screen reader and a speech synthesizer accent sa i would like to find out about screen access programs for the windows platform i heard that were a couple of them out now under beta testing i would like to find out addresses prices etc thanks raman t v raman raman cs cornell edu tel r office upson hall department of computer science cornell university ithaca ny res bryant avenue ithaca ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for text search engine s i m looking for any information regarding text search engines specifically i d prefer source or binaries which will run in a ms windows and or unix environment scanning either flat files or common db structures references to pd shareware or commercial implementations welcome please reply via email i ll summarize if desired thanx doc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help word w sucks autonum i am getting desperate i have a report that must be finished by midnight and w w doesn t seem to have what appears to be a must i use the autonum field for numbering chapters but my document is distributed amongst several files i just can t find a way to make word start the numbering at something else than or of course everything is fine in the first file but it s pretty stupid when all chapters are numbered as please if you have any solution to this except from putting it all in one m document e mail me immediately as i am working on th report i hardly have any time to read news so please e mail me all answers will be heartly welcome in advance thanx a lot frode rinnans v trondheim tlf bjaastad idt unit no and on the th day god created rock and roll avard jastad
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip i from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas subject re windows zip unzip date apr gmt in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax there is wunarchive the replacement of wunzip it only extracts but it ssupports pkzip it does not require pkz unzip in order to work and ccosts only to register
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file hpcc comp os ms windows misc u cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger i want to capture the output of hp laser jet iii though the postscript can setup to print to file but hp can t i try dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help you can print to a file from an hp or any other printer just go into the printers section of your control panel select the printer you want to re direct to a file and click on connect then choose file as the port to connect the printer to when you print from any application to that printer windows will prompt you for a file name for the file into which you want to capture the printout it s pretty easy good luck perry reed perry reed hp desk hp com be young be foolish be lucky in love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	auto check boxes i have a question about the autocheck boxes in windows is it a possibility to let the boxes have several different colors at the same time frode kvam c name frode kvam univ university of trondheim dept of informatics e mail frode ifi unit no snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re boot up sometimes fails in article apr lugb latrobe edu au cs lux latrobe edu au matthew i gillard writes subject boot up sometimes fails from cs lux latrobe edu au matthew i gillard date wed apr gmt sometimes when i boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs i am using dos and doublespace and a meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when i press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels dos never used the area e efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as a lan card you might get this problem use the x e efff in your emm exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security anyone know of a good software package that will allow us to keep track of who is printing what and when is there any way to get print manager to keep a log is there a print manager replacement that will do this how about a package that will only allow access to the system for people in a password file i looked at chastity but it will let you log in without a password and doesn t keep tabs of who got on and when any help will be greatly appreciated mark juric a i programs mjuric ai uga edu university of georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble elisabeth bull e mail eliza swix nvg unit no
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy a mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents i heard of a wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than i do if i rember correctly lotus notes gives u this possiblity among other things tom softsys se
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt help needed with io error x hi everybody out there i just got the third beta release disk march of windowsnt and still am not able to boot up that system the final step achieved is the display of io error x but since this is the beta release of the sdk for nt and not of nt microsoft does not include a manual on the os itself explaining what this error means of what i can do to get rid of my configuration is mainboard hauppauge rev a a with socket for i megs of memory k m m ami eisa scsi controller series latest bios mb cache st n hard disk syquest removable disk toshiba cd rom drive proaudio spectrum plus longshine ethernet card lcs ne comp et graphics card meg colorimage the system is running fine under dos and windows etc but trying to do the setup for nt automatic setup does not recognize controller aha compat when adding manually nt complains not finging any cd rom drive the manual setup winnt does not copy everything from cd to hd does not recognize controller but takes it manually setup continues until it tries to boot then it starts loading several stuff from disk seems to fing the hd but messing up with that damned io error i took away all io cards not essential but that did not make any effect anybody got any ideas help would be greatly appreciated michael linder mlinder tonet physik tu berlin de institute of optics tech univ berlin germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal setup how i am new to windows and i wanted to know how to setup the terminal program i have a modem in com but when it try to configure it inside windows i get the messare unsupported com can anyone help me sam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy i had a question abo owen adair wd fsu adair dbsoftware com d b software backbone uupsi atldbs adair there is an alarming increase of topics i know nothing about
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions here is another hint i have a really jumping mouse ps type and finally the mouse stops jump changing himem sys yes himem is you use device himem sys m x x can be of course my computer don t appear on the list for these parameter and maybe your mouse can stop jump but your problem looks more like a dirty mouse hope it help to anybody alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos a loaded gun was why i m not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet writes i ve been running dos for about a month i was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted i cannot afford problems like this i m returning to dos mark p s i ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist infoworld april issue has two articles about problems with dos a second look article calls it a loaded gun and that people should exercise extreme caution if they decide to use it the point out that doublespace and memmaker are both problem areas that will cause a number of folks problems ms s response was to the effect that there had been no problems reported that they could duplicate probably are not trying too hard cringely reports that a lot of folks are getting going to get burned on the support lines his example was a call that cost for minutes of tech support after minutes on hold i want to see the ms spin doctors explain this
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble this pretty much confirms my original impression after reading through the documentation on dos the double space sounds nice but not on your primary disk i ll probably wind up making a disk partition d and doublespacing it using it as an archive probably would be useful on floppy disks as well but on c uh uh i particularly disliked the note that said something like double space is irreversible cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows enhanced mode how to get icon functionality i recently set windows up on my dx vlb system and i didn t notice until last night that i don t have the icon in my control panel i don t remember windows setup asking me about enhanced mode whether i wanted it or not now i ve got a program that i just bought aldus freehand that is telling me that i should be running windows in enhanced mode looks like i m running in standard mode how can switch to enhanced mode without the little icon thingie are there some issues involved with vesa lb systems which cause windows to not want to give you enhanced mode thanks for any help david victor
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would to a rle file love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org i thought i d reply to this though i ain t brad at any case a lot of picture file viewers that will convert say between gif etc to bmp will convert to rle i know for a fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop i think filename psvvv zip i think where vvv is the ver number if that s not true let me know and i ll post a corection this however will write your rle file with a bmp extension so you have to rename it now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use a non vga screen e g cga ega svga there is also a way to do it but i thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file such as cgalogo lgo egalogo lgo or something i m not sure about this as i have a vga but i m sure you could find it in the faq a windows help ver of which is available at cica but don t konw the filename also your bmp has to be colours or less these specs rule out some of the good bmp s i found cartoon drawings work quite well as they have the advantage of looking good with little memory finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don t start windows from a directory where another win com is present as that is used instead of the one in the windows dir and win won t start share this fairly but don t take a slice of my pie pf mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest well i got winzip from cica don t know which version but i think it s the latest as this is not long ago and i was initially imressed but here s the low down winzip is a great progra as long as you only unzip it lets you vew files unzip only selected files and even puts the files in a checkout directory and creates a checkout grp and group if you want to check the program out it even prompts for deletion of these on exit if you didn t like the program however big however over here i have problems zipping i don t konw specifics on this or ammount of consistency but sometimes when i zip a few files or add a file to a zip dos will violate something or other and i ll be asked in a kind micro oft kind of way to quit all applications quit windows and restart my computer i don t know as i said how consistent this is as i jdont zip much and when i do now i just go to dos and use it from there or just use the run cmd but i do know it s happened when i added files to an existing zip file and when i created a new zip file using selected files only i don t know if it s happened when i zip an entire dir still it has a rather nice interface and quite useful unzip ing functions if the above is fixed i ll be the first to register the new ver as for now a good old run unzip zip will work ps if a new ver is out that fixes these please let me know peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re boot up sometimes fails in article dbasson mattek csir co za dbasson mattek csir co za dominique basson writes dos never used the area e efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as a lan card you might get this problem use the x e efff in your emm exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions speaking of that my comp has emmexclude e efff or something of that nature in the system ini file or some system file for windows i was just wondering if having that line in a windows startup file is better as it will give some more memory on dos apps but disable it when you run windows actually i do think that that line is also in the system file peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse odometer hello do you know about a mouse odometer for windows i have seen one for the mac it is quite fun it records the distance in miles that the travels during use thanks in advance steve steven ruegsegger if you are a conservative when you are young smr po cwru edu you have no heart if you are a liberal when you are old you have no brain
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internationalization of applications and muulti byte characters we are researching what support there is on various platforms for applications to use multi byte characters e g japanese kanji we know that unix and x windows can contain support for the i n standard depending on level and platform what support for i n or wide characters exists on the mac windows and windows nt steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article aa f fidonet org c doelle writes brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org i don t know the specifics of the compression algorithm but i ve used the shareware program paintshop to convert between the two you can download it from ftp cica indiana edu but i don t know what the file is called or what directory it is in you can start by looking in pub pc win or try scanning the index files to convert a bmp file to a rle file you just load the bmp file and do a save as select windows bitmap and compressed or is it rle whatever it is it s fairly intuitive sorry i don t have all the details but i m currently on an ibm dumb terminal and can t do much researching good luck brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap re what does the bmp format mean iuj el ie kiu lando demandis pri bitmap oj kaj iu el fi finnlando respondis dirante pri libro en software development kit eble la demandinto ne havas la elvolvilo por malmol varoj that was esperanto some from ie asked about bitmaps and some from fi responded saying about a book int the software development kit possibly the asker does not have the development kit gxong cxjijaux s ro
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap re what does the bmp format mean pardonon mi ofte konfuzigxas pri mola kaj malmola do mol vara i was confused between soft and hard as in software gxong cxjijaux
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win lock up at mil on dia stelth x help please help if you can whenever i try to run windows useing the million color mode with the drivers supplyed with my diamond stelth x it will lock up requireing a full system reset to break out the drivers that i have for windows are v for windows which is the version of windows i am useing my setup dx kcach megs of ram svga touch monitor non interlaced ami bios any and all help would be apreciated the card seems to work fine in other modes i usually run windows in x mode and probs at all so i am hopeing it is a driver and not a card problem paul gubbins cpt tiamat umd umich edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources in this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them when i load windows i start with about resources available but many of the application programs i run regularly wpwin vb winqvt lotus organizer etc seem to not return all their resources when i exit them after a day or two of work i often find myself down under of available resources even when i have no applications other than my shell running i am aware this is a known problem what i am looking for are some suggestions of what i might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak are their system ini switches i can set to help plug this leak do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is a great market for a third party memory company like qemm if i run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside i was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources when i am writing vb code are there things i can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources any other suggestions that i don t know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is a common problem and i have seen only a little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help finding best development kit i m new to the ms windows world and while a fairly competent sparc nextstep programmer i have no idea which development kit to purchase i have heard good things about borland c with application frameworks and microsoft s visual c with sdk what i would like is peoples comments on which package or set of tools they find useful or productive and why there are a plethora of other kits such as gui toolkits available and i m wondering which of these are best in terms of reliability plug and go type operation readability and so on i d be interested in comments on these or anything else you may find useful i will summarize to the net if there is enough interest thanks veenu vrr cbnewsj att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system font hello i have windows and i was wondering what is necessary to change the default system font to something else i have just obtained msc c with sdk so i d really like to get my feet wet with doing my first windows pro gram to change the system font tx william f maton acadvm uottawa ca the mercedes benz convertible u csi uottawa ca the unicycle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro windows ok i just got a new mb with a ati ultra pro and i can t get into windows it says that i need more memory available but i have mb ogf extended mem k of conventionnal i have disabled my memory aperture because it didn t find any free memory but it still gave me a message that the memory aperture will conflict with system memory i think that s why it want to get in windows any help will greatly be appriciated please reply by mail because this site is a week late on news thanks gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to get ati card video drivers fonts in rju p hah access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes does anyone know where i can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy i have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee you can get them from the ati bbs it a number should be on your manuals if not the tech support number will tell you the bbs number
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcx from w w hi folks i have a question how can i generate a pcx file using word for windows i know i can select a postscript printer driver to get a ps file but how can i generate a pcx file is there a printer capture utility for windows that ever exists or a utility to transfer ps format to pcx format or tiff format please reply by e mail i will give a summary thanks shiyu zhang syzhang ccit arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft printing system or something like that i saw an ad for this and it basically is an advanced print manager it lets you monitor your printing more closely and comes with a bunch of true type fonts anyone have this good bad worth it
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trouble with sound blaster pro drivers recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for a long time and don t know what the problem could be thanks jeff kaz kaczmarek kaz iastate edu the future is long past forgotten when you re on the road to madness geoff tate queensryche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	local windows vs shared windows discussion i would like to see a serious discussion on the best way to install windows from a novell administrator s point of view i just got off the phone with ms access support and was told that they microsoft has decided to implement as a standard for software support the local setup described below as the most advantageous installation if this is true and microsoft deems this to be the most prudent installation then i will comply but i d like to hear it from administrators first the local windows installation windows is fully installed on each workstation hard drive assuming the resources are available from a network administrator s implementation he she would install all windows disks on a network drive using setup a then install windows on a per machine bases by running setup off the network to install the complete system on the local drives in this way all drivers are available to the setup procedure w o the need to change disks advantages reduce traffic running windows locally reduces network traffic due to the local access of main windows files network independence if the network fails and they all do at one point or another the local installation would allow users to keep producing and reduce the cost of down time faster windows theoretically windows will run faster from a local hard drive than over a network this may be a hard point to prove if the network has an optical backbone and or the network drives are significantly faster access than local ones a user traveling from machine to machine does not need to worry about varying setups monochrome color types of mouse etc since the windows installation is assigned to the workstation disadvantages cost installing windows locally requires a significant amount of disk space workstations now must be purchased with a hard disk that can increase the cost of the workstation from to percent administration local windows installations are very difficult to administer new drivers for peripherals are constantly being made available each of which would have to be individually installed on each workstation security users now have access to erase or corrupt their own system files from simple ignorance this could result in quite a headache for administrators who may have to constantly repair damaged installations backup we all know the problems backing up local hard disks the backup sets if done via a centralized tape system get very large very quickly backup individually to floppy may not happen at all this may be eliminated if it is assumed that local hard disks only contain replaceable applications and not user data the shared windows installation windows is fully installed to a network disk via the setup a procedure described above users or administrators then install a minimal set of files to individual user directories these directories may be on a local hard disk or perhaps a network home directory the bulk of the windows system files are maintained on the network in a single directory some files and are accessed shared as needed by users throughout their windows session the user s files consist of a small set of files that the user has updated during his her windows session these include group files ini files and other regularly updated files advantages a single location for all files makes updates to drives easy as an updated driver becomes available it only needs to be installed in this single directory for all users to be able to take advantage of it assuming that the users files are maintained in network home directories the administrator can easily edit any ini file as needed to correct problems that may arise this includes win ini and system ini backup of all pertinent files is done easily even if the users files are on a local hard disk the bulk of the windows system is backed up with all driver updates disadvantages network traffic since all windows files are being shared in a network directory traffic on the network can become a problem an effect the speed of windows if the network crashes all production comes to a stop since window s is reliant upon the network for its files loss of data usually occurs as well since users working in windows at the time of the crash will usually not be able to save their work although minimal disk space is still a consideration if the users files are maintained on the network a large number of users can cause a significant utilization of disk space due to their personal windows files alone users cannot easily move from machine to machine unless the workstation hardware are similar this is due to the windows installation being tied to a particular username in the case of network user files the discussion i would like to know from other administrators with a large windows userbase how they prefer setting up windows personally i have setup numerous installations using the shared setup all windows and application files are on the network with little or no utilization of local hard disks in fact i sold a network on the fact that the company would no longer need to purchase hard disks for their workstations and thus save that much more money i would also like to see recommendations for applications should apps such as word and or excel be installed locally regardless of how windows is installed again i keep all files on the network for easy backup and administration but this is putting all eggs in one basket if the network crashes work comes to a halt now i am sure microsoft and i know your out there has their own ideas about this and their insights would be of great value but i hope to hear from people with actual working experience with users and network administration
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com unecessary bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup might do it too much trouble brad bmp will convert to rle i know for a fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop i think filename psvvv zip i think where vvv is the ver number if that s not true let me know and i ll this however will write your rle file with a bmp extension so you have to rename it your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know agreed mixali your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use a non vga screen e g cga ega svga there is also a way to do it but i thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file not entirely true also your bmp has to be colours or less true finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don t start windows from a unecessary mickey path of least resistance tm get wingif from cica ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win desktop it will save to native rle format unlike psp an otherwise fine fine prog make a file using anything that has to be less than k as michael said and less than colors import it to wingif as gif pcx or bmp and save it in you windows system subdir as vgalogo rle not lgo exit win and run setup in the windows subdir reselect your current config run win voila minor correction the rle file has to be k that means k gif hope it helps and please please someone put this in the group s faq costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax winzip ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win util it is a shell it does call dos but a very very good one it will also do arc arj and lzh it fully supports pkzip try using it it might be a shell very unobtrusive but that also means you dont need to update it with every every other letter of the alphabet version of pkzip hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tcp ip through windows i don t know much about computers so please bear with me here s my question context i use a package called slip on my home computer to connect to the university mainframe an ibm running vms mvs and log on to my account when i installed slip on my computer i had to configure it for my modem kbs etronics internal and had to supply the phone number to dial to reach the mainframe the way it works now is that i type telnet uicvm or tn uicvm either will work at the dos prompt uicvm is the node name of the mainframe the program then dials the mainframe establishes a protocol and gives me the logon screen telnet and tn are the names of batch files in my slip directory i have been told that a kermit protocol is used for the session problem i would like to be able to do all this under windows because i hardly ever use dos directly slip will not run under windows i talked to the people at our computer center and they suggested that i use a packet driver called winpkt com with slip they gave me instructions on how to load it before i start windows and how to modify the tcpstart and tcpstop batch files in the slip directory to ensure that it would work i did all that and i could run slip from windows but there were other problems for one thing slip would not hang up the phone when i exited i had to run my communi cations program to hang up the phone or reboot the computer when that didn t work for another there were too many errors it often took me tries to connect to the mainframe our computer center does not support slip under windows so i can t keep going back to them with more questions question is there some other shareware package that will run under windows and do what slip is supposed to do i need a package that is not too expensive which is why i am looking for shareware i have heard that there are regular commercial packages that do all this but they cost hundreds of dollars these are the main requirements must be able to run under windows must allow vt and ibm tn terminal emulation must allow ftp file transfers since that s the only kind the mainframe allows no y modem or z modem etc i believe the ftp transfers are made through a kermit protocol but i m hazy about that a subsidiary feature that would be nice to have if it s a true windows program rather than a dos program modified to run under windows is the ability to run the session in a window concurrently with other applications and to cut and paste between the telnet session and other applications any information received is appreciated pankaj saxena u uicvm uic edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	codabar font hi i need a codabar font for win tt or other thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is a windows version but i don t think it handles all the functions available in the dos version last i looked quinzip could be found on the monash university australia mirror site of cica so i d assume it s still on cica itself and other mirrors have a look in the util s directory for a file called qzip zip o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and imf boards i am interested to know if there is know procedure document to configure an ibm musci feature imf card to work as the sound device with ms windows i believe the imf uses the same fm synth chip as the soun blaster but didn t know what driver to use or how to configure the midi mapper any help past success suggestions thanks don donald finch technical support engr n american solution centers voice microsystems fax email don finch corp sun com m s mtv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	observation floppy copy works under pgm mgr but not dos shell has anyone observed this if i copy a large say k file a large pkzip file for instance to my floppy drive under ms windows via either program manager or a dos shell the file copied under the dos shell has errors whereas the file copied from within program manager does not the corruption is detected by executing pkunzip t b file zip after both copies the file copied via the dos shell always shows corruption now here s the kicker i have many windows open while doing this both dos and windows apps supposedly all windows apps share the same time slice whereas the dos apps get their own equal time slice unless overriden so as an example i have windows apps open multitasking dos sessions running and one execution execlusive dos shell iconized inactive under this scenario cpu time is divided into two major slices one for all the windows apps and one slice for the running dos app when copying under windows pgm mgr i ll assume the other windows and dos tasks are essentially inactive thus pgm mgr gets say of the windows slice and of the execution background dos shell s slices thus it gets or of the total available cpu time when copying in a dos shell i activate the execute exclusive mode dos shell no other dos background tasks allowed full screen under the windows task manager the cpu time available to this shell would be of the windows slice assumming inactive windows applications and of the dos slice or of the total available cpu time so why do i get copy errors under dos if it has the greater amount of cpu time is program manager working in a pre emptive mode during the floppy copy it must be miscellaneous data running windows on top of dos qemm x rapidbios sys mbyte smartdrive no delayed writes two ramdrives logitech mouse driver full mbytes motherboard ram kbyte motherboard cache dx mhz running dos edit com tsr in the dos shell wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help wierd problem somebody help me cure my poor computer before i go insane i have a problem with my when running windows that appears to be memory related it s actually not limited to windows but that s where it causes most of my problems ths machine s dx meg ram kcache trident tvga card pas soundcard windows runs really really slow most of the time slower than on my old sx graphics draws fills are slow boots are slow applications are sluggish dialog boxes take up to seconds to appear note some of my other non windows applications do funny things that appear to be related several run slow my mod player crashes the system etc running borland c before running windows or any of the other programs completely fixes the problem windows will run as fast as i ve ever seen it run easily times faster for graphics than when i don t run bc beforehand i don t have a memory manager installed in config sys installing emm exe does not fix the problem it makes it worse after emm is installed running bc will not fix the problem anymore this problem is driving me nuts if you think you can help please reply through the mail thanks evan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bj and lbp pr drivers needed hello could anybody be so kind and tell me the date and possible ftp location of the most recent win printer drivers for canon bj e and canon lbp i would really appreciate if you could help me with this thanks in advance kjell hut fi kjell niksula hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands do you mean a prog that doesn t jump to the dos display and then back or create a temp dos window if yes then i might recommend winzip from ftp cica indiana edu i m afraid i don t have the file name or version but you should be able to find it it s fully compatible with ver g and very functional later phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager kills my group files in article reiqj qtr access digex net bsmith access digex com barry smith writes any clue some times when i enter win progman says that i need to rebuild a group it s quite annoying i ve had the same problem with a maxtor a turned off smartdrive bit disk access etc this same disk aborts norton speed disk nu up to times requesting ndd to be run when attempting to defrag drive at some peoples suggestion i reformatted my drive and reloaded dos win from scratch a few people found that installing on top of beta on top of caused a similar problem so i tried this drastic solution when the problem reoccurred i didn t have the brains not to load and dblespaced the drive i get arround the annoyance by copying my grp files to gro when i get the message i run file manager and copy the offeniding group files from gro ove rthe grp then i quit and restart windows if the group is an often used important one this really sucks but i m pretty sure that the problem is the drive especially with the nsd problem i will be going with out over of my memory after finals for to weeks while the guy i bought the disk and system from goes over it and either fixes it or replaces the drive i can t wait to have a system that will run consistently with all hte goodies mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in apr bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i am aware this is a known problem what i am looking for are some suggestions of what i might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak it s the applications that do this unfortunately even the applets that ship with win seem to have this problem i ve seen it in solitaire for example are their system ini switches i can set to help plug this leak none that i know of if an application doesn t give back the resources they are lost and gone forever pending a restart of windows do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is a great market for a third party memory company like qemm if the applications don t free up the memory and a lot of them don t there s bugger all that any other piece of software can do about it if i run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside i was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources no this is a problem with the applications usually when i am writing vb code are there things i can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources there are books written on this one in general just be sure to free up everything that you ask for before you exit unfortunately i understand that vb will internally lose resources for you so there s no way to avoid this entirely any other suggestions that i don t know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is a common problem and i have seen only a little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email there s little discussion because it s inevitable until ms manages to come up with an os that will do garbage collection or something on the resource pool insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help how to allocate more memory for disk copying in file manager when i use file manager s disk copy i find that windows can read the whole mb disk at one time but only of a disk it looks like a problem of memory however the pc has mb ram there should be some way to allocat more extended memory for disk copy please advise me on this matter thanks in advance huayong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information thanks kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu suny buffalo bitnet v wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty electrical engineering c wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote size is another factor the bj is much smaller but the hp is built like a tank i bet the bj would get damaged first you bet your bippy it s built like a tank and not just mechanically either this past weekend we had a nasty thunderstorm and the impossible happened i got a direct lightning strike on my house and to the second floor outlet box into which my faithful deskjet c was connected there was a bullet sized hole in the aluminum siding with some solidified aluminum slag dripping from it you could actually see the electrical box through the hole the outlet itself was fried and i m still amazed the whole damn house didn t burn down i lost electric garage door openers vcr s telephones all of which were on the opposite side of the house a zyxel u e high speed modem a vga monitor a x color monitor the rs and parallel ports on my x terminal and a wd lan card in my pc not a good night but the deskjet ran as soon as i found a functioning serial and parallel port to connect to it ted slightly singed rypma hp panacom division waterloo ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quietwriter ii driver i m trying to get a hold of an ibm quietwriter ii printer driver for windows if such a beast exists can someone suggest how i get it please mail me a reply directly as i don t normally read this group many thanks david brown dbrown mach wlu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program m maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c g g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win s program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi i ve been using plannet crafter s plug in for program manager its listed in most bbs es as plugin its an add on which gives some needed features to progman such as the ability to better manage your groups change your cursor and icons on the fly constant status of ram and resources quick menu a drop down menu of dos commands or app launcher plus some other neat stuff used it liked it and even reg d it g if you can t find it anywhere let me know and i ll zip it up and mail it to you shareware version of course g aloha es all hope abandon ye who enter messages here slmr a idc bbs usr hst k usr ds v bis alameda california home of kingmail kingqwk and qwkmerge
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re actix video card drivers for windows on apr gmt kym burgemeister kburg aelmg adelaide edu au wrote in apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel y h wong writes i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows good but where are these drivers daniel y h wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese or somebody get them by a local call and contact a ftp site for uploading if this is not possible i can keep them on my disk and email the at request uuencoded provided that somebody sends them to me of cource i live in ny penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it s interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of a difference here before you think it s a interesting rag they have this incredibly incompetent article opinion piece by someone named robert ziff which has preposturous statements like sun has sold around multiprocessing servers in that case usc has around of all sun mp servers on earth he is off by a factor of i thought of sending them a factual disaster email message they have a column titled how to contact us but being silly pcheads they seem to have never heard of the internet these may also be of interest world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other totally billion projections are by idc source unix world jan unix hardware sales by category billion installed base workstations million midrange million large scale pc unix million total ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please do not post bitmaps from pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff organization university of south dakota subject roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one date pm due to the resolution and size it is in parts this is a uuencoded bitmap x colors the picture is a marbled gazebo on a desert with blue sky background the size is just right for centered wallpaper on a x display because it leaves a border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture reguarding image quality and resolution i have not seen much better please do not do this i don t know how the rest of you read news but here s how i do it i subscribe to an outernet system which allows me to dial up via modem and download e mail and news articles automatically when someone posts a huge attached binary file i have no choice but to receive it along with all the other new articles in the groups i subscribe to i also pay for the connect time which is normally not a problem because i have a k modem and each day s upload download session takes only minutes or so today s session however lasted about minutes because of roman bmp consequently it cost me about extra just to receive a file that i didn t want in the first place if you have cool bitmaps that you want to make available there are other ways to do it either upload the file to an ftp site like ftp cica indiana edu which has a complete windows section and tell people how to get to it or use one of the newsgroups like alt binaries pictures or something like that which are file archives rather than discussion groups don t use discussion groups like this one to send out attached files especially when they re k in size thanks ed klein eklein spiff win net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms mouse driver in article apr princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos g niederstrasser writes does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver i got it when i got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular i need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so i can play various games esp x wing the sensitivity is changed using the s v or h parameter the commands do the following v vertical sensitivity h horizontal sensitivity s both follow the parameter with a number from to slowest fastest the default is you can type the command mouse s right from the keyboard or add it to autoexec bat hope this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore in article apr ugle unit no eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes from eliza tigern elisabeth bull subject re why i m not using dos anymore date wed apr gmt mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble does this need to have anything to do with disk compression i have experienced the same thing a couple of times myself but without any disk compression stuff installed for example guess what happened when norton speeddisk once crashed during defragmenting bjorn bjorn myrland bjorn myrland sipaa sintef no sintef safety and reliability n trondheim norway sintef the foundation for scientific and industrial research at the norwegian institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer driver wanted i m looking for a printer driver for the apple imagewriter ii this printer is actually the same as a citoh jim littlefield only two things are infinite the universe little hks com and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re question on eisa video board performance from article c ubg k w world std com by cfw world std com christopher f wroten i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa s but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus i think that s either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on a mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on a mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa since they are not why would anyone me included pay a higher cost for a eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that a much cheaper isa video board such as a diamond speedstar x from pc magazine s i think recent report i know that ati makes a pretty fast eisa video card but it s around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for i could get a diamond viper and still have left over of course i d have to get a local bus mother board too that s a very good question the eisa bus does have more advantages over the isa bus than just it s width for example more better interrupts and bus mastering but these other factors do not impact a video card very much they have more impact on file servers with multiple hard drives full throttle network cards cd roms etc can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in article c ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa says does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server could you add some information to no it does not say for instance your source of information source for does not comment the cd rom and manuals for the march beta there is no x windows server there will there be of course even if microsoft supplies one with nt other vendors will no doubt port their s to nt according to a recent newsletter from hummingbird communications ltd they announced exceede nt at uniforum the announcement reads like it is here now but there is no order or price info i would guess it must be rsn there is a dev kit too
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives i was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go a long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn t then shame on microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	lockups in enh mode w floppy hi i ve got an older motherboard old as in uses a keyboard controller and uses memory interleaving rather than caching it has developed a problem where trying to copy files from floppy cause the machine to lock up reset button required but only when in enhanced mode this occurs in norton desktop file manager and when trying to install software running win in standard mode works fine has anyone run into this any ideas much thanks appreciated david yon world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos novell netware i friend of mine installed dos at work and is hooked up to a novell network running netware v the problem he s having is that the doublespace program is using drive h as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please e mail thanks a bunch mahbub cu cleveland freenet edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to put my swap file ide or scsi i have a sx and i recently added a scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday i ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values i got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results i don t know what typical values are what i m wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide i could move it to the scsi which is faster but then i would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should i put my swap file to get best results is there a swap file speed test program out there finally i also ran the above tests with the aspi dos driver loaded and i got no difference whatsoever in performance is there any reason at all why i should load this driver thanks in advance i will post a summary if i get enough responses eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it s interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of a difference here world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other projections are by idc source unix world jan sombody s data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn t appear in the first survey i tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn t mean its correct carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to put my swap file ide or scsi in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com writes i have a sx and i recently added a scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday i ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values i got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results i don t know what typical values are those are pretty typical i believe what i m wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide i could move it to the scsi which is faster but then i would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should i put my swap file to get best results is there a swap file speed test program out there keep the swap file on the ide bit access is worth a fair amount more than
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why are our desktop fonts changing one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to a full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to a full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it s not a major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has a dec d lp machine jeffrey m cohen voice office for research ad fax the university at albany e mail jc uacsc albany edu state university of new york washington ave albany ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re replacement for program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan writes hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win s program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for e mail response please post your response as well i think many would be interested in this one thank you wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt should i upgrade hi i am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on a sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such a setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix s steve ee d uk ac king ceres
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x video board hi there i plan on upgrading my monitor and video card to x i have a dx isa no local bus system i would appreciate if anyone can drop me an email of your experience with high resolution video board monitor thanks ming t lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vesa driver for ibm xga can anyone tell me where to find a standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of a mz dx ibm model lf i need to use x and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with k colors needed at x gary r michael phone associate director fax office for information management e mail gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois david kinley hall novanet gary michael duosoft cerl west gregory drive urbana il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast display adaptors for windows a friend and i have ati graphic ultra display adaptors and they have been reasonably good performers but we both have had irritating compatibility problems with the ati drivers and are ready to change to something faster and more compatible with windows i have heard rumblings that the new orchid card is very fast anyone have experience with this card what is currently available that is fast compatible does x x non interlaced and cost under ken keirnan ken keirnan pacific bell kjkeirn srv pacbell com san ramon california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge to microsoft supporters microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos novell netware in article rre d d usenet ins cwru edu cu cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam writes i friend of mine installed dos at work and is hooked up to a novell network running netware v the problem he s having is that the doublespace program is using drive h as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please e mail thanks a bunch mahbub cu cleveland freenet edu determine the last dblspace drive required and set that as lastdrive in your config sys if you are using w ww you might want to go a couple of drives higher to give you some shared drive space reboot and novell will set its first drive one above the lastdrive in config sys you might have to remap some of your novell drives if they were originally mapped to lower drives make sure that the bat file or whatever you are using to log onto novell is set to the correct drive one above the lastdrive setting in the config sys file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winlogo hi i d like to substitute the exciting win opening logo for our own company logo at boot up time is this a matter of replacing the logo file with our own logo and what format should the company logo be in thanks avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base t
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina once wrote microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses personally i ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well i hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators i d hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like a huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation i don t have all that much sympathy for apple s complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox s pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have a great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator i feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become a monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	western digital c driver i know that i ve seen this question asked before but i don t remember seeing any answers so here it is again does any one know of an ftp site where the wd c driver might reside i ve checked cica and i m sure it s not there i m refering to the new version of the driver that came out in i have seen it on c serve but i hesitate to d l meg at bps unless i really have to alternativly is it possible to get paradise or wd to mail me the new drivers or don t they do that finally is it even worth the hassle of getting these things or is there not much improvement over my version thanks for the info peter peter st wecker n yrj internet pswecker med unc edu uucp pswecker uncmed uucp dept of physiology univ of north carolina chapel hill nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to change an icon for a program in windows suppose you want to change the particular icon for a program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this thanks a million chad toelle toelle evansville edu s st philip rd or mt vernon in uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	required file format of word for ms window file doc hi i am trying to develop a utility to view word for window file but to do that i need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can i get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted a tt font creator package free i m looking for a way to get our company logo onto documents and figure the easiest way is to put it into a font are there any public domain programs that can do this is there any shareware that will do this any help is appreciated paul paul wilson pwilson gandalf ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes from kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker subject challenge to microsoft supporters date apr gmt microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren t in the air at the wrong time admit it billg is a damn smart guy how many out there can make money on almost useless products useless even if you look at the time dos were written it stinked already then if i could choose one marketing guy in the world i think i would choose him he s so good that almost everyone hates him but they still use his stuff thomasez i m not perfect but i m perfect for you shavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalessha vethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavet hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew halesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhal esshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhaless
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vesa driver for ibm xga in gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary r michael writes can anyone tell me where to find a standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of a mz dx ibm model lf i need to use x and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with k colors needed at x the ibm xga svga vesa driver is on the reference diskette available from the ibm bbs it s also on compu erve or you can bang on your sales rep to get you a later version dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they d make me wear a suit if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl the use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension kaul vnet ibm com of the blues brothers has been approved
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows on line review uploaded i have uploaded the windows on line review shareware edition to ftp cica indiana edu as pub pc win uploads wolrs zip it is an on line magazine which contains reviews of some shareware products i grabbed it from the windows on line bbs greg reinacker x ncr microelectronic products division voiceplus danfield court greg reinacker ftcollinsco ncr com fort collins co
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file in hpcc corp hp com reed hpcc corp hp com perry reed writes hpcc comp os ms windows misc u cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger if you are planning on using this on a regular basis conncting the printer to file can become bothersome because windows then asks you for the filename that you want to create i ve found that putting a line in system ini in the ports section with just a path and filename works the only problem is that if you send more than one job the second one deletes the first chris cmj acsu buffalo edu is christopher johnson pgp public key encryption for the masses disclaimer i didn t say that pgp encrypted mail welcome pgp public key pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu orwell may very well have been correct he just had the year wrong me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telnet terminal for windows i m looking for a good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to a unix host would be great any suggestions thanks peter kocks kocks chemistry stanford edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters has ms innovated anything really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses lets see what ms products don t have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their customers must buy new releases from them that are little more than bug fixes anyone who buys a computer system and then runs ms windows on it is in desperate need of sympathy oh wait ms innovated the plastic housing on the ms mouse didn t they logitech inside personally i ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well i hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators i d hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like a huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation i don t have all that much sympathy for apple s complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox s pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have a great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator i feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become a monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche you can t even really call it secondary creativity when a company gathers together a bunch of knock off packages and peddles them to neophytes if ms does anything it appears someone has to do it first it appears that ms is finding out that throwing money at technological problems is by no means a guaranteed solution kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt should i upgrade in article rrhe inn p ceres kingston ac uk ee d ceres kingston ac uk steve warner writes hi i am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on a sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such a setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix s steve ee d uk ac king ceres i ve been using windows nt tm since the october release and i have to say that the march release is really a big improvement windows nt tm is becomming usable there are a few things to consider before you make the leap though first for me at least is that you cannot get a full speed dos box what i mean is i cannot for instance run falcon or any other resourse intensive program in a dos box it absolutley crawls and my machine is a with a mb hd and mb ram if anyone knows how to get a fast dos box or full screen for that matter please let me know the second thing is there are still not many drivers around for stuff for instance my pas has been demoted to running as a sound blaster which is natively supported nice because mediavision hasn t produced drivers yet your disk should be large enough to keep an mb dos partition and give the rest over to windows nt tm the only thing is whenever you wanted to run windows programs you d have to reboot and log into windows nt tm instead of just typing win windows nt tm does seem to be much more stable than normal windows though it d be a good choice if you have the resources you should really have at least mb ram though one last thing modems work well enough but i have yet to get my fax card to work and i ve never heard of anyone else who did either it s only better than unix because it runs killer software out of the box whereas with unix there isn t the same availablity i guess it comes down to windows nt tm is not yet for the faint of heart it s still a beta but it s a very good beta scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in c ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information i have a copy it isn t in there microsoft says it will not be in the release version either he just asked if it did or not i told him thanks you re welcome insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telnet terminal for windows in article apr leland stanford edu kocks chemistry stanford edu peter kocks writes i m looking for a good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to a unix host would be great any suggestions take a look at winqvt net the latest version is qvt net it comes in versions that are direct to packet driver as well as a pc nfs version it is priced quite low registration student registration and is a nice package comes complete with vt terminal emulation ftp pop client lpr and nntp client you can ftp it from biochemistry bioc cwru edu pub qvtnet qvtnet zip it was also uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu recently ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip pwb aerg canberra edu au paul blackman writes in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is a windows version but i don t think it handles all the functions available in the dos version the problem is that quinzip is very very slow so i think that winzip is still the best choice to use pkzip in windows denis simard montreal simardde ere umontreal ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in a previous article louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis wrote in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know com files are limited to a total size of kb thus win cfn plus vgalogo log plus your rle file must be less than kb thus your rle file should be around kb rob any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn t clarku edu want clarkies to think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files adair atldbs dbsoftware com owen adair writes in article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy try this one on for size i d rather not post her name but if you email me i ll tell you who she is enjoy dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign kz o project leader recognition products kz o n ary noca ca na internet dbushong wang com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely in apr bert eecs uic edu zmola bert eecs uic edu carl zmola writes sombody s data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn t appear in the first survey i tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn t mean its correct note that the two tables don t talk about the same population one is fortune companies favoring the platform as their primary application platform the other is sales to everyone not just fortune fortune companies don t do a lot of development with the mac as their top platform i would expect that that would explain the discrepancy insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re question on eisa video board performance in apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu charles allen writes from article c ubg k w world std com by cfw world std com christopher f wroten i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa s but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus i think that s either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on a mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on a mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa i would expect the eisa board to be more than twice as fast as the isa board not only are you moving data on a path twice as wide at least but there is a difference in the number of clocks required for bus transactions between the two busses most isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction typically this is around eisa boards are suppose to be able to burst at a rate so i would expect performance to be x x that of an isa card so i guess for me the question is unanswered still i would expect him to be able to see a x speed difference and he apparently does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows in article ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie mack writes on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in well i thought that highmem sys would do that too i just took out emm of my config sys and i m still loading my other drivers high mouse vga shadow bios dos key etc i haven t checked mem c but i believe i have managed to load them high ie between kb and kb also ever since i took out emm windows loads slightly faster i get about extra meg of freemem in windows i m running enhanced with meg ram meg swap and i got rid of my ctrl alt del reboot problem before the computer would not reboot using ctrl alt del after exiting windows i would really like to keep emm out of my config sys anybody else have info on this eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why are our desktop fonts changing in article bc b jc uacsc albany edu jc uacsc albany edu writes one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to a full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to a full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it s not a major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has a dec d lp machine if it s any consolation i had a similar problem as i recall if i exited from a dos session while in full screen mode the menu titles had changed to a scrambled version of the icon title font or something like that it only started happening after i used icontitlefacename in win ini to change the desktop font to arial so i stopped exiting from dos sessions while in full screen mode my mac used to do something similar aren t computers weird mark hadfield hadfield wao greta cri nz niwa oceanographic taihoro nukurangi evans bay rd greta point telephone po box kilbirnie fax wellington new zealand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters kenton shaver ks l andrew cmu edu writes lets see what ms products don t have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their generally the second or third major release usually takes care of it my advice based on plenty of personal experience is to never buy the first version of anything from microsoft this includes major version number upgrades from previous releases such as microsoft c always wait at least for the a upgrade or slipstream upgrade if you re going to buy it san francisco is like granola take away the fruits and the nuts and all you have left are the flakes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don t let friends do windows wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please do not post bitmaps though i downloaded some of the posted bitmaps myself the original poster is quite right as an alternative try posting them at comp binaries ms windows and just letting us know a good idea is to post the article number here peace micke pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in article c aw h v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was a post about something similar a while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo there has been a long running discussion over changing the startup logo for windows for a few weeks here while all the copy methods are great haven t seen any mention of a program that will do it for you well i found one on cica called winlogo can t remember where unfortuantely and it seems to work real well even comes with a couple example rle files what i d really like though is a way to create rle files myself specifically the rle format mentioned in the winlogo readme file can anyone point me in the direction of such a beast with a real directory path all the ones i ve seen mentioned didn t pan out e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides no avenue for user of the week modification or programmability is not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	print to file how do i print the file later here s the situation at home i have ms word for windows but no printer at work i have windows a postscript printer but not ms word so i configure my machine at home to use a postscript printer and use the print to file option which produces a nice postscript file which i then bring to work my question how do i print this postscript file through the print manager at work if for example i select print from the file manager it treats the postscript as a text file and gives me several pages of postscript gibberish i know that i can open a dos window and do copy file ps com which does work but seems not to multitask very well other applications run rather slowly and often pause for s of seconds there ought to be a way of passing the postscript file to the print manager but if there is i can t find any mention of it in the documentation anyone know how to do this michael clase memorial university of newfoundland mclase riemann math mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c bgzv mk uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett ladies gentlemen please keep this discussion in comp os ms windows advocacy where it belongs thank you john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows from article ardie ux cso uiuc edu by ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie mack on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in emm is not reqired to load the dos kernal high or else you couldn t do it on a in a mail message i recommended that he remove it since he only runs procomplus frequently in dos and i suspect emm will slow down windows charles a cballen clemson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in here s an interesting table showing how much resources an application uses and how much it gives back on shut down this is take from windows user may issue application min resource use resource not returned gdi user gdi user winsleuth gold v word for windows v b lotus v arts and leters v powerpoint v corel draw v micro designer v crosstalk v excel v a hijacck v image in color pro picture publisher v powerleads executive ed v adobe type manager v na na skylight v the numbers are in percentage and are in a decreasing order what does this table tells you if you frequently start and exit a program that doesn t give back all of it s resources then you continually lose these resouces therefore only open these programs up once and leave them open btw maybe people can add to this list so we know what application to watch out for later doug
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to respond to wm lbuttondblclk i m using bc s objectwindows trying to resond to the left button double click message wm lbuttondblclk in a combo box my codes look like class mycombobox public tcombobox public mycombobox ptwindowsobject aparent int resourceid word atextlen tcombobox aparent resourceid atextlen virtual void wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg wm first wm lbuttondblclk void mycombobox wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg responding to the message selecting the item in the list box anything wrong with my program any help would be appreciated jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how to change an icon for a program in windows in article apr uenics evansville edu toelle uenics evansville edu chad toelle writes suppose you want to change the particular icon for a program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this it depends on wether you are going to replace this with an icon that comes standard with windows or with an icon from some other icon manager well if it is one of those that comes with windows just highlight the item by clicking once on it click on file and then on properties you should see a box which says change icon click on it you are going to be presented with some icons sometimes just one if you don t like any of those presented click on the browse box and look for the file moricons dll select it browse through the icons presented and just double click on your desired icon if you want to replace it with an icon from some other icon manager say iconpower for instance open the icon manager at the bottom of your screen where it will not block the application icon you wish to replace when you have found your desired icon click on it once and while holding the mouse button down pull this icon over the one you wish to change and thats it regards kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu state univeristy bitnet v wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty of new york buffalo c wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them many lines deleted danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu danny while working on my shareware toolbar i found myself eating resources and a very wise person pointed me to the sdk and specifically the debug kernel once you have all the sdk stuff installed this also comes with vc you run n d which does a normal to debug swap the debug kernel runs c o n s i d e r a b l y slower but you then execute the command dbwin and let it report to you what is going on you are going to find out a lot more about your apps than you cared to and possibly about other peoples apps is that opa i m sorry if this doesn t make sense repost or e mail me dave dave campbell at wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for organizer looking for organizer program for windows currently have lotus organizer not bad but looking for better should have a calender scheduler should have a to do list nice additions address phone book diary please any suggestions shareware public or copyrighted please email sthong eniac seas upenn edu steven hong email address sthong eniac seas upenn edu university of pennsylvania engineering class of
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article c aw h v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was a post about something similar a while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey it could also be that your shell is hogging the resources for example open the apps with data files that cause resulting low system resources with ndw x as shell then do the same with program manager and see if it s the shell or the apps ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wfworkgroups server goes deaf has anyone else observed this behaviour and if so what have you done to cure it one workstation in a wfw network goes deaf to any form of communication from other workstations until it goes out on the network itself from then on other workstatons can interact with it until some time later when it goes deaf again the workstation is set up to share its discs etc the machine is a dx mb ram with diamond stealth video it behaves this way with a variety of bit network adapters including a smc elite it also behaves the same way if i use the windows vga driver rather than the diamond drivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question i have just upgraded from a trident tvga to an ati graphics ultra the old mach chip i am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x i have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when i was using the trident card is there a setting in my ini files that i can change to make these smaller i could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hp laser jet l and windows has anybody had a chance to find out how the new hp laser jet l behaves with windows daniel royer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp no please don t post uuencoded bitmaps here if you want to do so put them in the alt binaries areas these files are very large and may crash some users newsfeeds it s also a waste of band width also we all know how to convert gif to bmp with many programs so it d really not worth posting all of these bmp files thanks kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help needed w dos apps and windows since loading windows two of my dos applications have been acting strangely it appears that font changes and page orientation changes so far are not being recognized in wordperfect dos and quattropro dos another dos application does accept font and page orientation changes so i don t think the problem is with the printer i reloaded quattropro and these changes are still not accepted whether launching from windows or the dos prompt does anyone have any suggestions as to where to look or how to correct this problem i ve ordered quattropro for windows but need a landscape application printed immediately please e mail thanks in advance sue bittner internet nigs cmuvm csv cmich edu central michigan university bitnet nigs cmuvm mt pleasant mi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it s always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple i ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one hello cliff many people on the internet like us have to pay for every byte of data passed through subscribed news groups bitmaps are large bitmaps cost us a lot of money there are special news groups for bitmaps because of this we don t subscribe to them put you bitmaps in the right place read one of the faq guides in the newuser groups and it will tell you all about bitmaps and the thousands of establishments like mine that you have just cost money some of them have very limited budgets go away p s this is a flame p p s you distribution of usa didn t work kenb ken blackler kb jet uk fusion jet joint undertaking abingdon energy for the oxfordshire england ox ea far future disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows i m trying to install wordperfect for windows on my computer i m running a sx w meg ram and a meg virtual mem setting for windows i keep getting errors when i try to run wp it tells me that i don t have enough memory or disk space since i have megs free on the hd i m assuming that i don t have enough memory can anyone tell me what it takes to run this beast thanks stealth dave destill mtu edu if you are caught using this address internet will deny any responsibility of its use this e mail will self destruct in seconds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely in article messinac b zl iho netcom com messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base t actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft s excel development group does its development under os another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work sco unix is and has been a reasonably popular development platform for dos windows and even os apps dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree marc fraioli mfraioli grebyn com so i m a minimalist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it s always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple i ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs it does sound funny i will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what i have read in pc mag this is not the exception os gives each windows app a vdm and they can t touch each other or generally anything they aren t supposed to have if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don t see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn t crash on you and you don t mind waiting on each task and not being able to adress your memory better than dos some of the key reasons for using os are gone i probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight brett brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don t let friends do windows wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration wow what did you use it for single tasked word processing i have files loaded right now and a mb virtual machine mb of ram my friend down the street gripes that he can t even format a floppy in the background many unix people love os because they are used to multi tasking systems microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that too bad they hold a gun to the mouse piper while they throw mice at their new trap trying to get it to work kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information from thomas sunshine kodak com thomas kinsman newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer misc alt binaries pictures utilities subject dib bmp creation guide as requested keywords dib bmp bitmaps file formats message id dec kodak kodak com date dec gmt sender news kodak kodak com organization precambiran electronics rochester ny lines xref cradle titech comp os ms windows programmer misc guide to creation of dib images thomas b kinsman precambrian electronics falstaff rd rochester ny thomask kodak com copyright march abstract the format of images created for use by ms windows applications is documented in the ms windows programmer s reference guide this guide is intended as a clearify some wording of the specifications and to put forth a recommendation among the various alternatives please send updates corrections suggestions and revisions to me please thank me for writing this on my own time by keeping my name with the document thank you for your respect this document copyright by thomas b kinsman if desired a postscript version of this document is available this information is free you get more than what you pay for don t sue me if i m wrong overview the dib image file format is intended to be a device independent bitmap file format what microsoft means by device independent is unclear to me four pixel resolutions are supported bit bit bit and bit pixels these images were intended for use on dos ibm or little endian systems if you are creating them on another architecture you will have to byte swap all short and long integer values by convention dib images end in the extension bmp this is because march they are a super set of earlier bitmap image files consequently you will sometimes hear dib files referred to as bmp files since dib images files are a super set there are three flavors of dib images o dos dib images these are the recommended convention and the form which i will describe how to create they are intended for applications running under ms windows in a dos environment o os dib images my understanding is that these are the flavor of dib images that were used by the presentation manager o old style bitmap images march differences between flavors the dos dib images consist of a bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as a dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data a bitmapinfoheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image if it exists this may contain or entries each entry is a windows rgbquad structure the image data itself the os dib images consist of the same bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as a dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data a bitmapcoreheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image again if this exists it may contain or entries each entry is a windows rgbtriple structure the image data itself the old style image bitmap consists of either a bitmapinfoheader or a bitmapcoreheader which header type is determined by the first long integer dword value an optional color palette this palette may be composed of either windows rgbquad structures if the header was a bitmapinfoheader or windows rgbtriple structures if the header was a bitmapcoreheader the image data itself creating dib image files creating a dos dib image file consists of several straight forward steps the headers need to be created and then written to the file these header structures are defined in the ms windows windows h include file palette information needs to be stored for images that are not bit images the five general steps are filling in the bitmapfileheader and the bitmapinfoheader structures the basic image information if the image is a bit bit or an bit image creating the color palette of rgbquads calculating the total file size and putting this information in march the bfsize field of the bitmapfileheader calculating the offset to the image data from the start of the file and putting this in the bfoffbits field of the bitmapfileheader writing to the file the bitmapfileheader the bitmapinfoheader the color palette and the image data in that order the following sections describe structures in terms of microsoft c type defined keywords the following table describes these keywords for those not familiar with microsoft c type defined keywords in microsoft c typedef meaning byte unsigned character word two byte unsigned integer dword four byte unsigned integer march the bitmapfileheader this structure is defined in windows h as typedef struct tagbitmapfileheader word bftype dword bfsize word bfreserved word bfreserved dword bfoffbits bitmapfileheader the bftype field is the two ascii characters b and m this serves to identify the file as a dib image file on an intel byte ordered machine ibm or a compatible this constant can be formed in c as the quantity m b x d on an intel system the bfsize field is the total size of the file for our purposes this field is equal to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of a rgbquad plus the number of bytes of image data if the image data is being written out in an uncompressed form this value can be calculated ahead of time otherwise this field needs to be filled in later both the bfreserved and the bfreserved fields are always set to zero the bfoffbits field is set to the offset to the start of the image data from the start of the file for our purposes this field should be set to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of a rgbquad this works out because the image data is written write after the color palette if one exists march the bitmapinfoheader this structure is defined in windows h as typedef struct tagbitmapinfoheader dword bisize dword biwidth dword biheight word biplanes word bibitcount dword bicompression dword bisizeimage dword bixpelspermeter dword biypelspermeter dword biclrused dword biclrimportant bitmapinfoheader the bisize field is set to the size of the bitmapinfoheader structure itself when reading the image file this value is what is used to determine that the image contains a bitmapinfoheader and not a bitmapcoreheader the biwidth field is the width of the image in image pixels the biheight field is the height of the image in image lines the biplanes field should always be set to this data is written out as if there was one color plane the bibitcount field is the bit depth of the image this must be either or depending on the bit depth of the image data the bicompression field tells how the image data is compressed if it is compressed dib images support two forms of run length encoding however i have never seen any images which use it and don t know yet how it works set this field to zero long zero or l to indicate that the data is not compressed all subsequent fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure may be set to zero a requirement of the interpretting software that it be able to compute these fields as necessary from the previous information the field which you might want to explicitly specify might be biclrused for bit and bit images this field indicates that not all of the possible color entries are used and that the image contains biclrused colors if you are using only colors with an bit image then you may only want to save of the possible palette entries generally set this field to zero march color palettes each entry of a color palette is a rgbquad structure the rgbquad structure is defined in the windows h include file as typedef struct tagrgbquad byte rgbblue byte rgbgreen byte rgbred byte rgbreserved rgbquad the rgbreserved field is always zero for each color used the amount of blue green and red are filled into the structure and the structure is written to the file a value of zero in the rgbblue rgbgreen or rgbred fields indicates that that particular component does not contribute to the color composition a value of in any of these fields indicates that the component contributes fully to the color composition image data there are three surprises about the ordering of image data in dib image file the creator of this format was determined to be creative and certainly was within the image data each line written out is padded to the next four byte quantity so if you had an bit image which was only one pixel wide you still have to write out four bytes for every image line the number of bytes per line can be calculated as bytes per line width in pix bit depth or in terms of the fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure bytes per line biwidth bibitcount when writing out your image data you must write it out bottom line first the bottom line of the image as you would look at it on the screen is the first line of image data in the file for bit bit and bit images information is written as you would expect one bit images are padded eight pixels to a byte four bit images are padded two pixels to a byte eight bit images are written one pixel per byte twenty four bit images are written three bytes per pixel however for bit images the information must be written out in the order blue green red while most image file formats write data out in march an rgb ordering a dib image file writes the data out in an bgr ordering summary this should provide enough information to create dib images from applications such as scanners or for image exporting routines if you find out any more about dib images please pass the information on to me so that i can modify this document accordingly march thomas b kinsman rochester ny thomas acadia kodak com practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty anon ito takayuki yuki is s u tokyo ac jp senior department of infomation science faculty of science university of tokyo japan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telemate windows help i have a very funny yet confusing problem i am using telemate within win everytime i close dos box my telemate operation get affected normally i am doing file transfer however if i open close windows program everything seems running smoothly my file transfer operation get affected only if i close dos box can somebody please gimme some pointers on what is going on and how to fix it thanks in advance glenn jayaputera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing windows fonts a friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven t been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can t read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c d m uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes munch you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration munch following is reformatted it does sound funny i will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what i have read in pc mag this is not the exception i d say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand i have had os crash randomly a number of times mostly just running it s own applications for instance today i discovered a new one while i was downloading with procomm plus for windows running seamless with the standard vga drivers on a run o da mill vga card x i decided that i wanted to edit a copy of a quote that i wanted to add to my finger but since i ve learned not to really trust seamless i fired up a full screen winos session whoops the download finished while winos was loading it had just gotten the pointer up so i hit alt escape to get back t the desktop i have a lot of fonts so loading takes a good long while blam screen trashed procomm hangs up hm well i can sorta see the mouse so i clicked on the minimized winos session and got back my fullscreen windows session but the color were off red and green and yellow and brown instead of blues and greys so i closed this and got back to the desktop now fully restored pp was still sitting window open but it was no longer connected to the com port so i exited it the normal way it told me i was still online and it would hang up though it was already hung up hm well load anothe no bad idea shutdown and reboot ok refresh first now shutdown yes everything is closed hm nothing seems to be happening let s see ah the windows list still comes up ok let s try shutdown again no go huh alright wait seconds to see if it s just running slow hmm still seems to be running os try shutdown again nothing oh well reboot enjoy the checkdisk time in this case a part of the os crashed not only itself but os entirely which isn t even smart enough to tell when it s been compromised i guess in everyday specifically today use os gives each windows app a vdm and they can t touch each other or generally anything they aren t supposed to have that s the idea anyway in truth when a program crashes on os it will bring the system down with it the programs that would just gpf under windows do the same under os but programs that are fine under dos and windows bring os screaming to a halt task protection or no for instance i m still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp dos locks up my system it works fine under dos or even in a dos box under windows admittedly it doesn t crash if i run wp full screen but the first time this bug big me it bit hard if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don t see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn t crash on you and you don t mind waiting on each task please explain the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i m copying or formatting a floppy or when printing and even then not long i get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it s doing this i ve downloaded with pp while printing and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it s own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as i am for os for itself if memory efficiency were a big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop some of the key reasons for using os are gone i probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight on the other hand i am finally able to say with some confidence that both os and windows have a bit of hardware sensitivity to them for instance the machine i am sitting at runs both fine while the machine next to me constantly locks up under windows but ran os without a hitch once i got it through a crash install on the whole i d say os is a whole lot more sensitive than windows but there are i suppose machines that windows just doesn t like wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller wasn t this ferris bueller there are stupid laws and then there are stupider than normal laws
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	nextstep intel sneak preview reminder phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group will be holding a public sneak preview of nextstep for intel processors where david rittenhouse labs room a rd and walnut southeast corner philadelphia pa when wednesday may th pm to pm nextstep is the bit unix based operating environment which has until now only been available on motorola based next computers in the may th issue of pc magazine called nextstep a hot prospect now next is nearing release of a version of nextstep which will run on based pc s yet is identical to the version in fact nextstep includes the ability to easily compile a program into a single binary which will run on both intel and motorola hardware nextstep for intel processors will be demonstrated on an epson progression computer nextstep is scheduled for release on may at nextworld expo in san francisco the demonstration will be open to the public come one come all if you are interested in seeing the most advanced pc operating system around come on by for a brief summary of what nextstep offers see the may th issue of pc magazine page for more information contact me jonathan hendry phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group jon afs com jonathan w hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having a root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned w some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co jonathan w hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having a root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned w some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in a previous article thomasez dhhalden no thomas lundquist wrote they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren t in the air at the wrong time hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew he doesn t have a beard rob being pointless wondeing if anyone else caught that any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn t clarku edu want clarkies to think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re required file format of word for ms window file doc in article cosmosc bcz kee netcom com cosmos netcom com cosmos writes hi i am trying to develop a utility to view word for window file but to do that i need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can i get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks the format for word for windows doc files is available from microsoft call their developer support services number sorry don t have it handy and ask for the word for windows binary file format spec warning it is not terribly useful and you will need to do a lot of looking before you can figure out how the stuff is stored general primer word for windows stores its data in two chunks the first chunk is the actual text in the file this is all stored together and has nothing but text and graphics the second chunk is the formatting information for general use to read a word for windows file skip the first bytes of the file its a general header then read the remaining text until you hit binary data matt
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may wam umd edu rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes in article c d m uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it s own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as i am for os for itself if memory efficiency were a big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop i assumed he was referring to os s bit flat model addressing while dos and therefore windows use bit segmented addressing as a programmer i agree that segmentation unnecessarily complicates things it s annoying too but when just a windows user i don t think about it much and i doubt many other people think about it or even care when just writing a document calcing a spreadsheet etc it works and they get their work done just a neutral comment it s funny i think how arguments about windows vs os sound so very similar to arguments about atheism vs christianity or something like that it s somehow very personal to people convictions are irrational and there s nothing wrong with that it s just interesting brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes i d say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand i have had os crash randomly a number of times mostly just running it s own applications i do know that ibm systems the ps slc in particular have absolutely no problem with os never had a random crash while running any of my programs under os in fact i don t remember ever crashing of course i really don t run any os programs just the same bunch of dos and windows stuff that i ve always been running and when i had the slc this is the slc system running dos windows i had only one crash and it was consistent ftp had a tendency to crash whenever i would get large files mb from particularly fast clients dtr s k k sec i figured out the problem was with smartdrv s write buffering if i turned off the write buffer everything would work fine ftp under os has never locked though i can even format floppies to use the most often cited example of the superiority of os for instance i m still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp dos locks up my system yeah i guess i m willing to admit that os is somewhat sensitive to specific hardware wp for dos works perfectly fine on my slc please explain the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i m copying or formatting a floppy or when printing and even then not long i get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it s doing this i ve downloaded with pp while printing well i save all my personal files to floppy and when i did that under windows a floppy save of a large file hung up the system i also found it quite bothersome to have to continually tweak the tasking options on fractint for dos whenever i wanted to do a fractal computation in the background and not being able to address your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here the idea is that os s dos sessions can see more memory than windows dos sessions i let xpl a shareware calculus program see around kb of free conventional memory which lets me do bigger symbolic manipulations than is possible under straight dos where it would see around kb of conventional ram i also found it really handy for my own dos based programs which without any re writing could now handle larger data sets simulate for more iterations etc of course the point is now moot since the os programs i now write simply never run into memory limitations i never programmed for windows so i don t have much of a comparison here though
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely mfraioli grebyn com marc fraioli writes messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform unix dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft s excel development group does its development under os if you believe that i have a nice piece for swamp for you for re development microsoft does even its techpubs under windows another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work that wasn t geo works was it dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree nonsense sorry i make fun of windows all the time but the above is simply a myth tell that to microsoft novell and others who dominate the market t
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	coda music finale and petrucci font problem i ve been using final from coda for some time but suddenly it stopped using my fonts i have a pc with lots of disk space and memory a postscript laser win finale and i recently installed atm i ve been fiddling around with the windows setup for some time and when i needed to do some work with finale things didn t print properly it might and it might not have anything to do with the installation of atm from something to but i don t have the old atm lying around anomore the most annoying problem was that the petrucci font didn t print which is a rather important font i managed to get direct printing to work if i included ownps in the finale section of win ini but compile postscript listing still doesn t work and it s those eps files i need when i look at the eps files generated the only font which appears there is courier i found out that if i manually changed the courier point to petrucci point in the eps file everything worked ok but i d rather avoid that since i have a lot of songs to work with and yes in the special font font names dialog box all the fonts i need are listed with the correct mapping between finale screen and printer fonts finale is obviously aware of the fonts since direct printing of a score works well that is after i included ownps and all my other windows applications print petrucci and the other fonts well has anyone encountered problems like this what is the current version of finale from coda music software i have are the people at coda available on internet or x i d be grateful for all hints and help mats internet mats gar no quikcomm mats gar genor serverp mats garp x g mats s tande o oslo p gr a telemax c no
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i make mpeg sound hello i install one wav driver pc speaker then install mpeg phoenix oulu fi pub incoming mpeg mpegexe zip in windows but when i load one mpeg file and make sound type to wav or mpeg it always say error when i load one mpeg file which have wav file wav then select sound type to wav it is normal and no error but i still can t hear sound what should i do fix the sounddrv number in mfw ini thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why i m not using dos anymore in article apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu writes regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives i was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go a long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn t then shame on microsoft mirror is one of those dos commands that didn t survive the change from dos it s been dropped along with backup join edlin and a couple other crummy old dos commands you can still use the commands if you absolutely have to but they are not included on the distribution disks however in mirror s case i m certain that it does not know anything about doublespaced drives eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org ci grenon o laval quebec h n m everybody has a right to believe in something canada i believe i ll have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt how to get the beta i was just wondering if anyone new how i could get the beta version of windows nt and be part of the beta program thanks gel binkley cs mcgill ca p s please reply by e mail
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell and windows i m working at a workstation which is usually attached to a novell network using shell version i think the workstation a was set up to run windows with the network about a year ago needless to say i d like to upgrade it to windows and have it work with the network basically the windows files d be on the local hard drive but several dos applications like word perfect will be on the network i d mainly want windows to access the network drives the network printers and perhaps handle some network functions as well if i could multitask the dos apps whose executables are on the network that d be great but i could live without it eventually i d like to get a few other s in the office working with the network and windows as well however most of the terminals are s which leaves the network pretty much dos bound and i guess that leaves out windows for workgroups and in the future maybe there d be norton desktop but that s gettingahead of myself as you can guess i ve never done anything like this before i ve read through the networks material that came with windows but still i d like to know if anyone out there has any experience in such an area please reply by email i don t scan these newsgroups often thanks for any replies brian rev p k siano revpk cellar org well i ll know right away by the look in her eyes she s lost all illusions and she s worldly wise and i know if i give her a listen she s what i ve been missing what i ve been missing i ll be lost in love and havin some fun with my cynical girl who s got no use for the real world i m looking for a cynical girl marshall crenshaw cynical girl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re drivers for stealth debrown hubcap clemson edu david e brown writes doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now also the most up to date use the bbs at they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low yeah i know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick maybe someone has them on the net i ve got the stealth drivers david the number you gave is the borland bbs and darned if i can find any stealth drivers there diamond s bbs is according to the manual i got with my stealth i have had a bunch of trouble using the right drivers that came with the card locking up de syncing etc so i hope you do better than i do dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video benchmarks wanted hi i am trying to compile a chart for windows and dos performance of local bus video card so if you have a dx v and one of the local bus video cards below please email me your winbench and dbench obtainable in ftp wustl edu pub msdos uploads scores please give me winmark score at x x and x x k i will post the chart if enough response if received tseng et w vlb cl vlb s based local bus card ati ultra pro vlb orchid celsius vlb agx based vlb cards do they exist matox mga based video cards thanks all
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	i need help recording of key mousestrokes in windows sorry about confusing subject summary keywords i am a postgrad researcher in esl applied linguistics at edith cowan university in perth western australia i desperately need help i need to record the results of word processing sessions in windows so that i can sit down and replay the results of my research subjects wordprocessing behaviours naturally i can do this with the windows macrorecorder and or other apps in windows but i cannot pause resume i e all i can do is to ctrl break to get out this is useless for a researcher who needs to be able to pause the wordprocessing session he is replaying to make notes annotations and then resume from where he left off i am just about to commence my research for my masters thesis and would be extremely grateful for any assistance if anyone can help could they mail me at johnoliver odin dialix oz au many thanks in advance john oliver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript to bmp conversion hi all i am working on a project in visual basic ver and i need to show postcript files i am getting from another aplication so because i can t show postscript directly form visual basic at least i don t know how i need a utility to convert them to bmp wmf any help will be appreshieated kobi elimelech messges can be sent to me at kobi asimov hacktic nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters hey larry how can you be a comp sci major and never crash a damn computer what does your cs dept teach you or are you just that good of a programmer that not one of your assembly programs have ever downed your machine crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration why do you bother putting up such stupid posts or are you that ignorant bob campbell clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters yamanari hey isn t it funny how betas have bugs in them hey do me a favor and don t put up stupid posts bob clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re replacement for program m in article uupcb idcbbs com les tom idcbbs com les tom writes maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c g g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win s program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi i ve been using plannet crafter s plug in for program manager the best one i ve seen is ceo by sloop software they have a sharware version but the retail version is only it s incredibly complete subfolders to any level choose any icon hot keys drop down menus button bars etc haven t found anything it doesn t do try mailing compuserve com for details tom tom hansen my beard grows to my toes i never wears no tom vpnet chi il us clothes i wraps my hair around my bare and i yam what i yam down the road i goes shel silverstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse everyone seems to think that this man s mouse problem is mechanical its dirty i have been having a similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature i m running a mouse systems compatible mouse on a dx with a trident meg video card and a m experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous e traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article c eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com this may work but won t it involve invoking the applications e g if you drag a bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won t it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag a file txt or bmp to a print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail for netnews are there any off line mail readers for the net news in qwk format it would be really helpfull to be able to download the net news from a vax or mainframe and read it off line adam hodge arhodge miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article c ezhn jlq tsoft net tedm tsoft net ted matsumura writes in article c eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though this may work but won t it involve invoking the applications e g if you drag a bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won t it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag a file txt or bmp to a print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print yes it invokes the associated application that takes but seconds tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem on dos box from windows this file is compressed i ve started getting a message from windows whenever i try to execute a dos program from windows either thru the program manager or the file manager a message box comes up and says this program or one of its components is compressed use the ms dos expand command to expand the file now i know this is bogus because i can always execute the program from dos when not running windows the program in question is command com yup the basic dos command line shell and the expand command tells me that the file is already expanded all my windows apps work just fine i only get this message when trying to execute a dos program from windows clues anyone thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic time date variables i m writing a mail management system using word for windows as a front end the user dials up a remote system and downloads a batch of mail as foo txt i ve set up an autoexec macro in winword to load foo txt ok but subsequent invocations of the macro will of course pose file name contention problems what i d really like to do is to create an autoexit macro in winword that would move foo txt to a specified directory rename it using the current date and time and delete the original foo txt in other words foo txt gets renamed as say on may at the user gets a time indexed backup of his mail files and foo txt is freed up for the next packet of mail since my autoexec macro points to it my main question is this how may one rename a file from within a wordbasic macro to include a time date variable in the new filename thanks if you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking a beer i bet it makes beer shoot out of your nose jack handey erich w lantz ewl world std com timberville va dod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re changing windows fonts in a previous article ellard husc harvard edu daniel ellard says a friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven t been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can t read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan the may issue of pc computing page has a windows hint and tips for just this thing you have to edit the win ini file and add a couple of lines i tried it and it works i actually made my title bar and iconized text and icon text smaller on my monitor it works well you can select a larger font also you edit the win ini file with a font name in your system directory read the article because i would not want to retype it here in case i type errored and caused your system problems c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	which sound board to buy well i ve come into some money and want to buy cd rom sound board and speakers i have not kept up on any material relating to sound boards and cd rom s because until now i never thought i d have enough money so can you guru s out there point me in the direction of a good package including cd rom sound and speakers and software i suppose or since i don t really need the cd rom right now give me some good ideas for sound boards and speakers those i could really use now i have looked at soundblaster pro which costs about as much as i think i want to spend on a board and i ve looked at the gravis sound board which is about and i don t know the adv disadv of either of these boards right now i want to use it with any games that support sound and to use in windows to utilize sound capabilities there so any concise info on sound boards complete multimedia packages etc would be greatly appreciated if anyone else is interested in this info i would be glad to summarize responses and post and if this is some type of faq please point me in the right direction and don t bother taking up a lot of bandwidth thanks brett brett watson database system administrator kansas supreme court topeka ks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question in article c c za j i watserv uwaterloo ca mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca writes i have just upgraded from a trident tvga to an ati graphics ultra the old mach chip i am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x i have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when i was using the trident card is there a setting in my ini files that i can change to make these smaller i could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca make sure you use the small fonts driver not the large fonts driver check that in your setup that s the only explanation i would find hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	when will nt be ready when will i be able to call my favorite mail order software shop and buy nt jeff dragovich dragovic cevax ce uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article n bc cunyvm bitnet n bc cunyvm bitnet writes everyone seems to think that this man s mouse problem is mechanical its dirty i have been having a similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature its my understanding that bus mice are more accurate and stable in general than serial mice if i remember correctly its because of the differences in how the interrupts are handled as well as the fact that the mouse data is received over the computer bus as opposed to a bps serial connection i m running a mouse systems compatible mouse on a dx with a trident meg video card and a m experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous e traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help is this just a general problem or is it associated with a specific application or group of applications
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows hallo ebosco us oracle com wrote on about emm and windows e von ebosco us oracle com mi e name eric bosco e should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys basically windows prefers extendend memory instead of expanded more work to do for win and if no application desperatly needs ems you should leave emm with a rem in your config sys bye chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic visual basic macros template i am working with visual basic v for windows specifically i am working on an application that generates formatted reports since some of these reports can be rather large my first question is is there a way to increase the size of a list box or text box in visual basic windows beyond the k limit as i have not as yet being optimistic come across a way to get around the above problem i am working on the following approach i am trying to create my own defined template in ms word using the wordbasic macros so that i can open up word from visual basic vb and load this template of mine which will work in the following way it will first open myown ini file created in vb at the time when the user selected the kind of report he weanted and read the section from the ini file and jump to the appropriate code in template which will then open and read a file pertaining to the section it read from the ini file when using the getprofilestring function in wordbasic is there a way to specify change the default ini file which is win ini to myown ini file when using the file input function in wordbasic is there a way to read more than the k at one time any help will be appreciated pgupta magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	recommendation for screen capture program i m looking for some recommendations for screen capture programs a couple of issues ago pc mag listed as editor s choices both conversion artist and hijaak for windows anyone have any experience with those or some others i m trying to get an alpha manual in the next few days and i m not making much progress with the screen shots i m currently using dodot and i m about to burn it and the disks it rode it on it s got a lot of freaky bugs and oversights that are driving me crazy tonight it decided that for any graphic it writes out as a tiff file that s under a certain arbitrary size it will swap the left and right sides of the picture usually it confines itself to not copying things to the clipboard so i have to save and load pix for editing in paintbrush or crashing every hour or so the one nice thing it has though is it s dither option you d think that this would turn colors into dots which it does if you go from say colors to colors but if you go from or colors to b w you can set a threshold level for which colors turn to black and which turn to white for me this is useful because i can turn light grays on buttons to white and the dark grays to black and thereby preserve the d effect on buttons and other parts of the window if you understood my description can you tell me if another less buggy program can do this as well much thanks for any help signature david delgreco what lies behind us and what lies technically a writer before us are tiny matters compared delgreco rahul net to what lies within us oliver wendell holmes david f delgreco delgreco rahul net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite results tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support rda v monu cc monash edu au a b wuysang writes but the impressive performance of the graphite was not its winmark it was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests i can hardly imagine that there is a cheat driver for it i received my graphite vl on thursday and i ve had a little bit of experience with it now in general it feels fast although this is the first vlb card that i have tried still the results are impressive with my dx w mb running at x i ve had the following wintach results card wp cad spread paint overall ati graphics ultra ati ultra no aperture hercules graphite vl unfortunately i don t have the numbers here but the ati ultra pro vlb had an overall wintach score of about the ultra pro was nearly as fast in text handling but was blown away in the cad and paint tests as an additional test we hand timed a complex coreldraw slide resize redraw times there was no swapping but i d expect there is a fairly heavy load on the cpu the graphite redraw times averaged about seconds with ati ultra pro at this jives with steve gibson s contention that the isa graphite is faster than an ati up on his complex micrografx draw document so far i m very impressed the drivers look solid and the card flies the installation and utilities are different but comparable to ati s and i didn t have to wait for build for some reliability with hercules software developer special you can get an evaluation copy of the card for just or for the isa version call if you want to give it a try i m a happy customer now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	opinions wanted fastest win driver for t c yesterday a friend of mine got a new driver for his card that more than doubled the speed naturally besides being a tad jealous same machine different cards it got me thinking what if i am using a slow driver wouldn t that be horrible so netlanders i need samples of your collective experience sic do you proud owners of a trident c video card w mb vram have tried out more than one driver fro ms win which which is the fastest not to be selfish and to give you a motive for responding i promise i am going to collect all the answers and the actual drivers provided u give me a site to get it from or uuencode mail get the winmarks using pc magazine s winbench and post the results here i am interested in svga drivers only plain vga users should run the win driver or this is what i ve heard dont flame me particularly x x and or x x that should cover the majority of svga users well what are you waiting for hit that r or f or whatever all input welcome so are money and sun sparcstations thanx in advance costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes and i would hardly call a command that can delete a tree and a move command as a state of the art wiz bang feature they are damn necessary i have often cursed not being able to have some kind of recursive delete you are missing something with the windows file manager you can ms but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car wants people to buy windows not dos ms knows dos won t last forever only because its crap which is noones fault but their own they want you to move to windows then later to win and eventually to cairo this way they give you a reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on i guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques but the point still remains that a command to delete trees is not new technology and is the kind of thing one would have expected to see long before windows was even dreamt of want good file handling use fileman exe this product requires microsoft windows dos is dead well amen to that but i wish it were a damn sight deader for a dead product its used an awful lot and i suspect its going to carry on twitching for a long while yet which isn t doing anyone any good and microsoft don t appear to have given up marketing dos so it is a very unusual form of death indeed tim walls sysop protocol bbs data fax fidonet amiganet twalls ncc d demon co uk pgp public key available
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re equation editor in article may iitmax iit edu vaxtools chico acc iit edu falke bruinsma wildthing writes hiya i m using word for windows and i am quite satisfied with it except the equation editor screws up all the time when i try to insert an equation it will give me two errors fence font not found and meta font not found the real problem is that it will not display or print out the integral sign does anyone else have this problem and how do i solve it i m using a z sport laptop with a panasonic p printer running msdos and windows thanks falke we all had that problem you need to expand the fonts manually the program decomp is on disk the equations fonts are on disk have fun gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re true type or atm seen from a typographically point of view atm using postscript fonts is better than truetype the hinting mechanism incorporated in ps is gorgeous multilingual users may see the limit of possible different characters in a ps font as problematically they may have better use of the unicode features of tt fonts in windows nt i ve seen lots of really beautiful and printable in small size ps fonts i haven t seen those as tt fonts most of them are rendering quite inaccurate in small sizes esp as screen fonts simply compare timesnewroman as a ps font with the tt font the first looks better i am hoping that there will be atm nt claudius mokler e mail mokler desert in berlin de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to find diamond speedstar x drivers the subject says nearly everything i am talking about the accellerator card note the x not about the et product without x please mail me the address of an appropriate ftp server thanx claudius mokler e mail mokler desert in berlin de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	control systems analysis package cosy pak v updated for mathematica announcing cosy pak a symbolic control systems analysis package version no user fee release for mathematica version or higher introduction cosy pak is set of packages and notebooks for classical control and some modern state space control analysis and design methods the notebooks in cosy pak follow a typical control engineering i course taught at many universities around the world for the junior senior level undergraduates there is no fee to use cosy pak but certain responsibilities are expected of the user see copyright notice in the readme file included below for starters e mail fax mail post the registration form included in the readme file cosy pak is available via anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no in the pub directory p s a typical ftp session in unix is given after the readme file future releases if you would like to receive updates and newer versions of cosy pak please send e mail fax mail to the address below in addition your comments and suggestions are appreciated and are invaluable to us we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future comments are welcome n sreenath systems engineering department case school of engineering case western reserve university e mail sree mishna cwru edu u s mail prof n sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh begin readme file no user fee release cosy pak a symbolic control systems analysis package version for mathematica version or higher by c k chen n sreenath systems engineering case school of engineering case western reserve university cleveland oh e mail sree mishna cwru edu copyright copyright copyright by c k chen and n sreenath case western reserve university permission to use copy modify and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted provided that the above copyright notice appear in supporting documentation and the name of the case western reserve university case school of engineering not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific without prior permission case western reserve university makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose it is provided as is with out express or implied warranty acknowledgements support from cwru information and network services dr ray neff case alumni association the lilly foundation and the systems engineering department of case western reserve university is gratefully acknowledged special thanks to brian evans of georgia tech for all the help ftp cosy pak is available by anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no a sample ftp session is given at the end of this file changes in version update from v to v in this version we have revised cosy pak to take advantage of the more robust signal processing functions available in mathematica v since mathematica provides a better and working laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions than mathematica v did we adopted them this has made cosy pak smaller thus brian evans signal processing packages that supported the laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions in the cosy pak v are no longer needed directly by cosy pak v for power users who use signal processing we still recommend the use of the very fine brian evans package on signal processing available at the anonymous ftp site gauss eedsp gatech edu or ip on the downside the disadvantage of this update can be that mathematica requires more runtime resources than its previous version for mathematica users we have included the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory introduction this is an unsupported release of cosy pak a control systems analysis package for symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica classical control systems analysis and design methods and some modern control systems methods have been implemented in this package this package and the attendant notebooks were developed on a next tm computer a unix based workstation they have been used as a supplementary teaching aid along with standard control engineering texts ogata phillips and harbor for undergraduate courses in control engineering i taught at the systems engineering department of cwru in addition to the next they have also been tested successfully on apple macintosh computers tm and ibm pc s tm running ms windows tm we would be very much interested to hear from you if you or anybody you know uses this software on platforms not mentioned above ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks first to visualize the graphics once installed see below for instructions this collection of mathematica packages can be loaded by any user bundled with the packages are many notebooks cosy notes which demonstrate the functionality of these packages the notebooks follow a plan of many fine standard undergraduate control engineering text books listed in the references examples used in these notebooks have been collected from the various references given at the end of this file the contents of the notebooks in the cosy notes directory are given below begin cosy notes contents notebook file name introduction ma chapter introduction to control systems sections analyticity poles and zeros signals forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation with zero valued initial conditions differential equation with initial conditions notebook file name math models ma chapter mathematical modeling of dynamic systems sections ode to state space linearization of a nonlinear system of equations state space to transfer function notebook file name transient response ma chapter transient response analysis chapter split into three sub notebooks because of file size notebook file name transient response ma sections time response analysis first order system second order system third order and higher order systems notebook file name transient response ma sections first order system step response vs time const notebook file name transient response ma sections second order system step response vs damping ratio notebook file name steady state response ma chapter steady state response sections routh s stability steady state error analysis notebook file name root locus ma chapter root locus analysis notebook file name freq response ma chapter frequency response analysis sections bode plot analysis magnitude vs phase plot nichols plot polar plot nyquist plot combined example notebook file name state space ma chapter state space methods sections introduction state transition matrix controllability observability output controllability pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods end notebook contents compressed files the files that contain a complete set of the cosy pak v packages and notebooks for mathematica are cosy pak tar z compressed tar file for unix systems cosy pak sit hqx compressed sit file for macintosh systems and encoded by binhex format requires the shareware stuffit file v or higher cosy pak ibm zip zip file for the ibm pc running ms dos once expanded the mathematica files can also be used on macintosh ibm pc unix systems also installation of cosy pak o in unix command line type the following command zcat cosy pak tar z tar xvf o in macintosh open the sit hqx file using the shareware stuffit v or higher o in ibm command line type the following command pkunzip o d cosy pak ibm zip note this zip file was zipped by zip utility v you must use pkunzip version or higher to unzip it ibm pc s may limit the directory name characters to eight in that event type pkunzip o d cosy pak zip you can also unzip the cosy pak ibm zip file on any unix machine if you have unzip utility on it uncompressing and untarring cosy pak tar z or unzipping cosy pak ibm zip will create a directory called cosy pak once the files are expanded you should see a single directory cosy pak containing the following three files four sub directories and their contents sub directories in cosy pak cosypak contains control tool box packages manual cosy pak manual in ps rtf txt and wn formats cosy notes contains notebooks for contains laplace transform package from mathematica for mathematica users files in directory cosypak chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m files in directory cosy notes introduction ma math model ma transient response ma transient response ma transient response ma steady state response ma root locus ma freq response ma state space ma files in directory for laplacetransform m diracdelta m sub directories in cosy pak common files in directory common support m important the notebook example files ma files will be under the cosy notes directory to use the notebooks move the directory cosypak to a directory that mathematica can recognize locallibrary mathematica packages on a unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on an apple macintosh c winmath packages on an ibm pc at the beginning of the initialization cell of each notebook in cosy notes directory we list the example about how to make mathematica identify the directory initialization of path example for a unix machine default path join path locallibrary mathematica packages example for an apple macintosh path join path my harddisk mathematica packages example for ibm pc path join path c winmath packages change the pathname according to your machine by removing the mathematica comment sign and before and after path setting this command makes mathematica recognize the directory locallibrary mathematica packages on a unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on a apple macintosh c winmath packages on an ibm pc mathematica users we include the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory getting started after installation start mathematica and open the notebooks in the cosy notes directory all notebooks load their own packages navigate in the notebooks and enjoy ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks to visualize the graphics user responsibilities we request you to take a few minutes and fill out the information below and mail it to us by e mail fax u s mail this will help us to keep your abreast of the improvements and release new versions of cosy pak suggestions for improvements are welcome cut here your name organization title e mail postal address comments suggestions cut here mail this information to e mail fax u s mail internet sree mishna cwru edu u s mail prof n sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh report bugs please report bugs and leave comments to the address above any suggestion for improvements and criticism are welcome we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future disclaimer and future releases this software is the property of the case western reserve university use this software at your own risk we make no express or implied warranty the packages and the notebooks can also be made to run under mathematica versions or lower with modification we do not guarantee the outcome documentation cosy pak functions are indexed in the files in the manual directory according the chapters usage is illustrated in notebooks residing in cosy notes directory if your computer does not support notebooks find a macintosh computer and acquire mathreader which is a public domain notebook reader mathreader will at least allow you to peruse notebooks but you will not be able to evaluate any code fragments references dorf r c modern control systems sixth edition addison wesley new york fortmann t e and hitz k l an introduction to linear control systems marcel dekker franklin g f powell d j and emami naeini a feedback control of dynamic systems second edition addison wesley new york kuo b c automatic control systems sixth edition prentice hall new jersey ogata k modern control engineering second edition prentice hall new jersey phillips c l and harbor r d feedback control systems second edition prentice hall new jersey end readme file typical ftp session ftp mishna esys cwru edu connected to mishna mishna ftp server version next sun nov ready name mishna esys cwru edu sree anonymous password ftp cd pub ftp binary ftp ls port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list cosy pak tar z cosy pak ibm zip index readme places wmd cosy pak untar transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s ftp get cosy pak tar z port command successful opening binary mode data connection for cosy pak tar z bytes transfer complete local cosy pak tar z remote cosy pak tar z bytes received in seconds e kbytes s ftp quit goodbye
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows video driver i ve got an old super vga card manufactured by sampo of taiwan and i m looking for a windows driver for it it s based on the cirrus logic cl gd a pc b chip i ve contacted the suppliers here in new zealand and they say that only windows divers were ever written by the manufacturer so if there s a v driver out for this chip set i d like to know preferably by e mail at rjwjames waikato ac nz thanks is advance ross james
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	text editor to handle large files as the title says does anyone know of a text editor like notepad that can handle large text files thanx for any and all help james burke by reading this you agree not to hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you at any time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article slalp ls tamsun tamu edu jeffw cs tamu edu jeffrey a waller writes in article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes in article c rq b f v uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes i guess thats why there are so many new dos and os applications coming and hardly any windows apps coming out irony yep the os apps are comming the os apps are comming yet another micro minion hoping that if he says something long enough hey i remember the good old days running os alpha with brief excel word and a couple internal apps product support database client os based email front end life was good but it was also impractical cause the masses were using windows and my job was to help the masses apparently you prefer os to windows or at least did to windows yes by you last comment do you mean that your knowledge of os is dated it must be or argue it s definitely dated i used os alpha when msft was developing it i suspect that the masses were using windows because they couldn t afford to use os can you say as much for nt i preferred windows because it was more stable faster than but could still run more apps than os again i made this choice before was released but getting back to the original question do you have any data on the relative avaliablity or windows applications versus os applications or any evidence that stated support will be dropped by any of the above no i ve seen no such data grow up other companies are supporting os make points please if you see life in terms of debating points i think you need to grow up ah yes i remember the days when we kids would engage in orderly debate but our parents would usually find out and force us to act in the more mature manner of heaping invective and casting rocks and dirt clods hee hee good one it doesn t help microsoft to have employees i assume you are due to the org may be wrong saying such trivial things on the net so microsoft employs over employees walking into this place is not like walking into the commercial there are individuals here you think they ll all talk the same way say the same thing and help microsoft all the time if so why it appears to me that he is voicing his frustration to an attitude he has encountered before and one that i ve encountered as well i on the other hand have had no such experience other than from reading this thread you at microsoft are in a unique position to present facts hmm are you sure i m speaking from my own experience as an os user certainly people in say the nt marketing group would be in a unique position to present the results of say research on upcoming nt and os apps vs windows and ms dos apps part of my point was that just cause one works at microsoft does not mean one has access to such data if it exists but prefer to make baseless claims or attack to poster i must make the same conclusion as he i will confess to at times attacking the poster usenet accounts are not restricted to the marketroids they re open to any fulltimer and are primarily for recreational purposes yeah some of us are likely to answer a question or hop into a debate or make stupid comments you know like human beings i m sorry this newsgroup is only for opressed hackers and stranded extraterrestrials not humans how about alt microsoft humans you seem to discount others anyway again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may infodev cam ac uk tjrc cus cam ac uk t j r cutts writes even so my point still stands to an extent that k limits appear all over the place where they really are not necessary such as the edit control limit while the k limit may not be necessary limitation they probably fall within the category of reasonable limitations if you find yourself trying to allocate an edit control for more than k of text it s probably time take a good look at your program s design why is there such a small limit to the number of global memory handles allowed in what way is a small number it seems to me that you d hit the wall in many other ways before you d hit the systemwide limit on global handles unless of course you re abusing globalalloc and please don t try to tell me that it s impossible to abuse the resources available under other operating systems all systems have limits the question is whether or not the limits are reasonable so far you haven t offered a single argument which suggests that windows limits are any less reasonable than limits in other systems rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn t speak for me and i don t speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using mouse in dos window is there a way to use the mouse when running a dos app windowed in win when you window a dos apps in enhanced mode i can see where the mouse cursor was but it doesn t work any help would be greatly appreciated thank you hansang bae hbae cwis unomaha edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for chips technologies video board needed i would like to find a windows x driver for a video board that is based on the chips technologies chipset the actual board is a scorpion framegrabber made by univision it is based on the c t chipset but only barely supports the graphics mode i am hoping that any c t driver could be used in the x x mode thanks stephen corbesero systems manager and adjucnt lecturer memorial drive west corbesero eecs lehigh edu eecs dept lehigh university sgc lehigh edu bethlehem pa voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win thanks for any pointer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes from twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters date mon may in article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car you don t and never had to that s what enhanced shells are for remember dos and ndos i mean come on you can t expect dos to cover everything from r microsoft has other projects to work on they want you to move to windows then later to win and eventually to cairo this way they give you a reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on i guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques i don t think they deliberately crippled the project on the other hand it is a technical achievement for what it does considering that it rides on top of dos i mean you get a gui with reasonable speed on a pc with xwindows running on top of linux or something similar you re still gonna need a fast processor re dos s death well amen to that but i wish it were a damn sight deader for a dead product its used an awful lot and i suspect its going to carry on twitching for a long while yet which isn t doing anyone any good except for the people who use dos programs which means about or more of the business world mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c vd q e s uceng uc edu bferrell moth occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes i know for a fact that the only reason many companies wrote os apps was because ibm paid them for it i d write an app for the ti a if ti paid me in advance to do it ibm can only pay so many people for so many apps once that stops so does the development software companies don t stay in business writing apps that won t generate revenue the fact that ibm was paying them for it allowed them to do it and stay in business how many apps are selling ask wordperfect borland lotus how much revenue they are getting from sales and if they plan on writing more apps you may be suprised by the answer i won t i would get into microsoft practices but the thread would go on for every you do have an interesting point that i won t dispute now but pray tell if you know for a fact anything why don t you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe i would if you gave your word even if he says he knows for a fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he s lying right now but c mon it would appear that you are employed by the competition you should expect to asked about your sources and just give them up front or not make the claim brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem wallpaper display corrupt for bitmaps k i have a problem with the wallpaper on my desktop in x x mode for bitmap files bigger than about k slightly less sometimes depending on the exact dimensions the wallpaper display is badly corrupted the rest of the desktop is fine for wallpaper bitmaps smaller than this i have no problem i have a friend who has an k bitmap which he has no problems with so it is possible it is also possible to display these bitmaps using cshow in x x mode with no problem so the video card is not at fault how can i remedy this my system dx mb ram dos windows oak mb video card x x mode using supplied drivers windows has a permanent kb swap file please reply via e mail and use the address in my sig as our post software always seems to mangle the address in the header thanks mazz richard mazzaferri ph d student uni of newcastle ph mazz faceng newcastle edu au australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters much munching and editing to get to the point brett d sherron ferrell writes you do have an interesting point that i won t dispute now but pray tell if you know for a fact anything why don t you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe i would if you gave your word even mike timbol responds if he says he knows for a fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he s lying right now while i do not think he is lying i also feel hesitant to take anybody on their word unless they can attribute a source for thier claims with all the fud and misinformations and misconceptions and outright lies flying around the advocacy newsgroups i do not trust any unsubstantiated rumor or claim especially from any employees of ibm s or microsoft or anyone who seems to have a vested interest divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroups for windows hello i want a little network for users all users want to run windows the most important things i want for the network are file sharing mail utility two printers on one of the computers and a fax modem card on one of the computers we all want to use each others harddisk my idea was to buy three computers one dx and two dx all three have a mb local harddisk the also has a very large harddisk all three also have a network card the is connected to the printers and contains the fax modem card and last but not least workgroups for windows my questions is this possible what exactly are the possibilities and advantages of workgroups for windows will all the computers be fast enough behind all three someone is working thanks martijn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wrk installation oddity last night i tried to reinstall the utilities from the windows resource kit disk the setup program appeared to run perfectly normally but when it had finished there was no program group created now i know i ve done this before successfully and creating a group myself didn t exactly tax me but i m curious as to what might be going on i can only assume that something left over from the last time i had it installed is getting in the way but i can t figure out what any clues anyone david eastwood sybase inc emeryville ca eastwood sybase com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit rgb i am working with bit rgb bmp files and need to comvert these to and bit images how do convert bit images to and bit rgb images thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i change the font and size for the system hi on the x x mode the font sizes of window menu help window are very small can i change the font and font size for these windows my computer is dx the video card is ati d could some experts please email the answer to grzheng vax concondia ca thanks in advance guo rong zhehg concordia univ montreal canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for s mb card dear netters my friend have brought a s card with mb ram is there any new driver for the card available on ftp cites what is the newest version she is very interest in have a driver for x with hicolor and x true color no such driver come with the card k w mok k w mok e mail h hkuxa hku hk dept of chem university of hong kong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can os talk to windows for workgroups i d like to get a system running os ga talking to a network of pcs running windows for workgroups acting as a server would be wonderful but client access would be enough can i run wfw s net utilities in a dos box or is there a way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw dazed and confused tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can os talk to windows for workgroups tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes can i run wfw s net utilities in a dos box or is there a way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw following up to my own article i found that several people say that lan server clients can talk to wfw is this then also true for lan manager don t lan server and lan manager share common roots dazed and confused somewhat less so now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms mouse newer as hello i need a microsoft mouse driver but newer as for going in dos window under ms windows but it is must be freeware i have version tx mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows in may datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz thomas beagle writes there is no need to load emm qemm or anything else on many windows pcs it s only useful if you are still stuck with running msdos based applications that need lots of low memory free otherwise you just need to load himem sys and let windows go straight to the extended memory that s what i thought that s why i never used emm exe before kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes this has gone on too long people get a life if you haven t converted anyone to your way of thinking yet you probably will not convert anyone just let this subject die a quiet though painfull death if this keeps up i ll start believing the self righteousness should be capital offense you ll have to kill off half the net maybe that isn t such a bad idea pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	remapping in procomm windows one can only remap special command keys in procomm it seems i would like to remap other keys too especially altgr and such combinations anybody know a plain or dirty way to do this of cause most people settle for remapping function keys but i don t see why there should be a limitation yours mattias
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	teacher for windows nt we are searching for one or two instructors for tutorials on advanced windows programming under nt if anyone has attended a course that was very good we would really appreciate recommendations please email me directly at paller fedunix org i don t get to see these newsgroups often enough thanks in advance for any help alan paller tutorials director
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to find diamond speedstar x drivers cica indiana edu pc drivers the current version is
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is there a version of unix s vi editor for windoews pete holsberg pjh mccc edu wrote subject line says it all i looked and looked but came up empty handed are you a pervert you are pervert ok vi is not cua but it has a powerful set of commands one for all it has separate clipboard and not only one ofor all kind of data like windows does the only problem is to know the commands the keyboard shortcut i am quite fast with the pc keyboard and i usually use all fingers to digit so when i use a editor i do not want to leave the keyboard and use the mouse every time i need a special function on the menu or to use the arrow keys that are away from the usual position of my hands on the keyboard in my situation vi is very powerful and i m searching to a vi editor for windows bye p s sorry for the bad english
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re creating a batch file from windows nt in sasswb k sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes for windows nt is there an alternative to the archane fairly useless dos batch programming language for os ibm introduced the rexx language as an alternative to bat surely windows nt should do the same thing right in lieu of the above is there any way to escape the cr lf in a bat file and continue a single command across multiple lines i have an application which exits to the system and submits a batch file the batch file is created on the fly from site specific code stored within the application as currently designed the line length for the stored code and the output file bat file is characters which is not enough for all the options that must be specified on a particular command it would help tremendously if i didn t have to redesign my code to kludge around the lack of a true batch shell programming language rest deleted as a followup to my post let me add that i m not really a windows or windows nt user so please excuse my ignorance however i m a developer at sas institute and one component of the application that i support is the ability to submit a sas batch job from within an interactive sas session the user site can enter their site specific batch profile into a dataset within our product specifying the pathname to the sas executable specifying site specific sas options etc at run time certain variables are resolved and the resolved file is written to an external ascii file then i exit to the operating system and run the job asynchronously returning to the interactive session as soon as the job is submitted the batch job then runs concurrently with the interactive session as currently designed the internal dataset has a record length of characters but to run the batch job the command to reinvoke sas in batch mode requires more than characters up til nt this has not been a problem since every job control shell language up til nt eg mvs cms vms unix os had a way to escape the cr lf and enter a single command across multiple lines os via their rexx language which is standard with os the gist of all this is since this application is for end users not within my company i have to try to develop this process using native nt since my first posting i ve learned that there are several third party companies that provide alternative script languages for windows windows nt and i m sure a company that licenses our product would use that alternative script language if they had it but i can t develop under the assumption that they have anything other than what comes with nt i saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it a separate product or part of windows ksh would do what i need if i could count on it at all nt sites one last question i ve heard that nt has remote processing capabilities i e i could shove this batch job off to a server machine and have it run there if these are native nt commands rather than network specific commands this would also help me improve this process if you can comment on these commands i would appreciate it thanks again for the help scott bass sas institute inc integrated systems a x sas campus drive cary nc sasswb k unx sas com x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deriving from class object with owl i am trying to define my own class derived from the object class so that i may insert them into a hashtable a class provided by the container class library i have defined all of the pure virtual functions of object but i still get an error when i attempt to allocate a hashentry object cannot create instance of abstract class hashentry has anyone derived from class object before what have i left out here are the virtual functions that i defined from object virtual classtype isa const return hashentryclass virtual pchar nameof const return hashentry virtual hashvaluetype hashvalue const return hashvalue hwindow note hwindow is defined in hashentry virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about dos external join command i am setting up my dos unix box on a m ide and a m scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command i like the way it sets things up since i won t have to stick with the c d e crap that dos enforces i like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems i have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell leopard hyperion com i don t work for hyperion i just live here steeven m vawter telephone svawter raynet com work unix sys admin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re deriving from class object with owl i solved my problem i still do not understand why it happens ths way perhaps some of you c gurus can explain this to all of us for some reason when i define the following functins in the class definition in the h file the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined when i placed these two in a separate source file and compiled them the problem went away any ideas what happen are the functions that are defined in the class construct all inline is this the problem virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deltapoints animated desktop hiyas all upon getting animated desktop for windows as a gift from my boyfriend i couldn t wait to install it i had gotten an advertisement for it and put it aside with my list of i wants after installing the software it didn t load no part of the software would load even though the install went seemingly well i called deltapoint with the problem and after asking me twenty million different questions about my system concluded that i had one of the systems that the software was incompatible with of course they re willing to give me my back what a waste of time and energy the folks on their support line although nice are extremely ignorant regarding the workings of windows after my experience with the installation of the sb i learned some of the function of windows dll files before sending back desktop animator decided to do some fooling around with the different versions of dll files i had i had versions of cpalette dll one dated and k the other dated and smaller the smaller version was the one supplied with desktop animator i moved the bigger older version of cpalette dll to a directory outside my path for some reason i had the older cpalette dll in my windows directory and the newer cpallette in my windows system directory when i did this the animator s editor loaded and so did other of the applications in the package the main application still didn t load does anyone have any ideas as to why this would occur or any further suggestions for trouble shooting darla portal darla shell portal com darla cup portal com aol kuby u aol com darlaiam aol com wix darla genie kuby l jj jj
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange messages when starting windows on a recently acquired gateway machine when starting windows three copyright statements flash on the screen right after the ms logo disappears and before programmanager takes over this does not happen on any other of our machines and i am wondering whether this is a feature or whether this is related to several problems we are having with the machine the system is a gateway dx machine the messages that appear are c copyright western digital corporation all rights reserved c copyright congruent corporation all rights reserved c copyright microsoft corporation all rights reserved the autoexec bat file looks like this echo off prompt p g set mouse c msmouse c msmouse mouse path c c dos c windows c c wp f apps f system f winapps f public set temp c windows temp lh wd e n x x xd lh winpkt x x lh ipx lh netx f login login win the config sys file looks like this device c windows himem sys dos high umb device c windows emm exe noems x d d ff stacks files buffers shell c dos command com p e does anyone know what is going on any help would be much appreciated department of urban and regional planning e mail varkki uiuc edu university of illinois at urbana champaign tel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article timbolc wh d hz netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike doesn t ms do the same i e subsidize app development i seem to remember someone at rpi who received an entire expensive to run nt machine to develop for nt free and that s just the small fry ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hp deskjet c try using laser printer copier paper it works quite well and is cheaper than hpspecial paper thomas a smith ii youngstown state university chemistry dept ad yfn ysu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from a reseller survey advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i don t recall any fud here maybe an example i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect a response when a claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	displaying stream output in a window i am using owl and want to display the output from a stream in a popup window is there a way to perhaps redirect cout to a window or alternatively set up a separate stream that supports output and be able to display the stream output in an tedit control anyone ever done something like this bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c y mz dnp news claremont edu tlilley jarthur claremont edu ted writes in article timbolc y b n netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied not really query what do you mean by paid are you implying that helped to offset development costs or paid for the entire cost of producing the product i mean they paid the companies that developed the applications i e we ll give you x million dollars if you port application y to os i suppose the company in question could use the x million dollars for whatever they want would you like to post figures for ms as well i suppose ted no i d rather not first of all i don t have exact figures and i don t want to disclose how i know this however i will say that jim francis from microsoft just posted a figure of million payment from ibm to borland and that s somewhere in the range that i ve heard mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos it was and actually another msdos team member posted it note that people not on the msdos team would not necessarily know about that or care to recall how unbiased the sample set was when i heard those numbers i wondered how they got them having worked in product support and knowing that the typical support caller has very little positive to say about the product i figured it wasn t from there so i wandered over to the marketing folks and asked and i was told it was from a survey of registered users and i posted that on the net when people asked where the figure came from that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level hmm i figured if chuck posted the numbers why not include where they came from i also find it interesting that postitive info is fear uncertainty doubt advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i think you ve got me confused with someone else i don t pretend that msdos provides what all people need or that other oses including unix os don t provide useful and or necessary features i also don t push people to use msdos i even posted in comp os msdos misc that i suggest waiting before installing a new os esp if you have trouble support is always overloaded during release unless the sales are a total bomb i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life i ain t saying some of us don t get defensive sometimes do you really think msdos gets any more respect within microsoft than outside it i just mean we all aren t cut out of the same dough with the same cookie cutter we don t all think alike yeah chuckst and i have some inside info on msdos doesn t mean that everyone else does seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may microsoft com kenk microsoft com ken kiesow writes in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from a reseller survey i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users i double checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver is there a hot key for the windows screen saver utility if not is there an easy way to create one the reason that i need one is that my dad s company is anal retentive about leaving a computer while the information can be accessed so the employees are not allowed to walk away from the computer until the screen saver kicks in as if that is terribly secure also the system manager won t let any software be added so another program such as lock zip from cica or a different screen saver is out thanks for any and all help chris putnam still a blue devils lover at heart euphonium baritone star in
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in a previous article jenk microsoft com jen kilmer wrote i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users i double checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing which translates to not satisfied i don t think it s the awkward recursive deletion that s bugging people it certainly isn t the nice windows interfaces for new dos accessories cpav defrager undelete as far as i ve noticed it s doublespace crashes frankly the fairly high rates of doublespace crashes i ve heard of surprises me i figured that since the os is presumably aware of doublespace it is less likely to crash unlike stacker which fools the os but do is gullible anyway dos is aware of doublespace isn t it anyway good job on dos and dos is good for new users just beware the doublespace rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help hello all it is my understanding that all true type fonts in windows are loaded in prior to starting windows this makes getting into windows quite slow if you have hundreds of them as i do first off am i correct in this thinking secondly if that is the case can you get windows to ignore them on boot and maybe make something like a pif file to load them only when you enter the applications that need fonts any ideas chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect a response when a claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	suggestions for winforwg com redirection needed help i am trying to find software that will allow com port redirection under windows for workgroups can anyone out there make a suggestion or reccommend something i would really hate to have to write some driver for the serial port that would support the network but that is my next step thanks in advance bkv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse systems driver for mouse control in dos window does anyone know if there is such an animal i have a mouse systems trackball and would like a driver for this device that would allow me to use the mouse within a dos window the same way microsoft s mouse driver works thanks chris chris shenefiel who does not represent his company in any way shape or form on this forum nor do his opinions or comments represent the opinions of his company nor do his opinions or comments even merit consideration of any kind
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to prevent ctl alt del from windows i would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows i know there must be a way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn mike glynn business gatech edu mike glynn stolen sig follows a hot rodder is someone who is completely internet mg prism gatech edu baffled by people who are not into cars
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mike dahmus mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com wrote yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work serge p
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilm er writes found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen if jd power and associates did the survey i would like an anonymous ftp site to pick it up at only a sucker believes an ms released survey results about an ms product ok assume that the results of the survey whatever they are are honest if the results indicated extreme dissatisfaction with the product is ms going to tell us to stop buying ms dos because it sux sure would it not be fair to say that the relatively few people who have decided to purchase would be inclined to like it just as those of us who love os most of the people who but them know more or less what to expect and are not disappointed i mean it is nice to know that the people who bought it are happy and important for ms to know and i don t dispute the accuracy i just would hate to see people extrapolate from that population that dos is the next computer revolution well these statistics are to shut people up and add some microscopic weight to ms arguments as i just said you have seen what automakers do who is going to believe chrysler if they tell us in a random chrysler conducted survey my theory about certain people is that they are convinced that if a point is maintained long enough it is true after all what is the focus of this company information money and information technology is for some an expedient toward these ends why did bill gates drop out of college was it because he couldn t afford it at the time was it because as the wsj says he couldn t wait to use what he knew to go out and make money bill gate s answer to this question would be highly interesting i await it i can t stomach bill declaring himself a visionary and using every available opportunity to build up the cult around himself and then having ms sell dos and windoze as their main stays kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer writes you re missing the main point of capitalism in the first place competition breeds excellence yes where commodities are concerned imagining that capitalist theorists had software in mind when they wrote their grand treatises on the main point of capitalism is non productive pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	disk image question hello recently i noticed there is a directory named diskimage in my disk i didn t notice it before and i wonder if while installing an application an image of the disk was created or if win automatically created a backup of its files i couldn t find any documentation on the diskimage utility having an image of the disk is taking a lot of disk space does anybody know if this is just something the people who installed win did or it is a backup mechanism thanks anibal anibal mayorga wenark dr w mayorga cis udel edu newark de h
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	upgrading to windows nt i d like to appeal to the net s nt wizards for a bit of advice first a general description of the machine as follows motherboard utron mhz opti chipset meg memory kb cache soon i hope to drop a dx chip into it fahrenheit video meg x x proaudio spectrum sound board primary disk connor cp on a caching ide controller secondary disk conner cp as slave on same controller tertiary disk fujitsu meg on superstore esdi controller planned future disks include scsi hd and cd rom on pas scsi port tape drive is a colorado jumbo on the floppy controller future tape drive may be a dat on the scsi interface other hardware includes modem fax serial ports and a teletext board ugly dos software drives the latter applications used include normal windows stuff excel word quicken and turbo pascal windows but the important stuff is my audio work environment which includes turtle beach wave for windows mcs stereo and other misc stuff for dinking around with audio files also i use stacker on the primary drive hp newwave for my wife s use and she won t let me get rid of it and a product called infinite disk from chili pepper software for hierarchical storage management of my seldom used offline files i plan to upgrade to nt when it becomes a released product i was stongly tempted to become a beta user early on but i don t have time to mess around with the hassles of beta software i expect to buy it tear off the shrink wrap and use it without hassle i know unrealistic but i can hope can t i after all i have work to do the advice i want concerns the state of nt regarding device drivers and hardware specific stuff in general how smoothly can i expect the upgrade to go can i expect support for all my stuff or do i still need to scramble around downloading drivers pas orchid colorado from some bbs etc what steps should i take to ensure the installation goes smoothly note that i want to nuke dos totally from the system i m allergic to command lines i plan to run a pure nt system also will nt communicate with the workgroups lan what about stacker i currently have stacker on the first disk drive without stacker and the infinite disk product i will have great difficulty fitting everything i have on the system it s cramped now i realize stacker will be incompatible with nt but will there be an nt version or will nt support compression a la dos i know infinite disk will be incompatible with nt but will they offer or does anybody else a comparable product for nt and at what cost perhaps i need to ask chili pepper that question i can live without id if i have to but i d rather not will nt run my dos apps the teletext board mainly without dos on the system what do i need to keep around any feedback or advice including forget nt with good reasons is much appreciated my only significant reason for moving to nt is i need a better multitasking environment than windows among other reasons wave locks up the machine for hours and hours doing dsp processing on large audio files and i want better lan support than i now have internet access etc maybe there are better solutions than nt and if so i would appreciate hearing about them os what s it s status these days pls respond by email and if there is interest i ll summarize for the net thanks nathan gregory p psilink com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how to prevent ctl alt del from windows in article hydra gatech edu mg prism gatech edu glynn mike writes i would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows i know there must be a way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn are you sure you want to do that if a win app locks up for some reason ctrl alt del may be the only way to kill the app and get back to windows granted it doesn t work all that often but it has come in handy on occasion i consider it pretty carefully before i disabled that keystroke just a thought if you d like to talk for hours just go ahead now the spin doctors dominic drohan electronic data systems eds email drohand cad gmeds com note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of eds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level if i recall jen said right up front how the sample set was derived where s the fud advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os does this mean i can flame you if i ever see you doing it face it the advocacy groups are for the kind of things that you re preaching against this is why they were created in the first place to filter out all the crap from the newsgroups that might contain real information phil nothing i have posted here is in any way shape or form official microsoft policy or opinion and should not be represented as such when quoted here or in any other forum philipla microsoft com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse my original post subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions aha i think i found the problem and it isn t dirt another guy here was using a different kind of mouse and was using x x video driver the default vga for windows he has an s localbus card like i do and when i loaded the s video driver in windows for him his mouse became jumpy too seems like it is the s driver is there any newer one than version that would solve this problem it is really bad i have to use the keyboard instead sometimes the s w zip on cica is version which is the same version that came with my card sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows in article c uf d gz acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes in article c s ux n f acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes do not load smartdrv sys if you are using stacker this applies for windows i replied why do you mean just use smartdrv exe in autoexec bat roger you answered quoting from windows setup txt under the section for using stacker for best performance do not use smartdrive to cache the compressed drive you only need to cache the uncompressed drive check it out for yourself i think it is important to clear up your first reply you gave the impression that you should not use smartdrive with stacker you are correct re caching the compressed drive however as i understand it you can cache the uncompressed drive thus if you have compressed your disk c you will have a c and probably a d drive under stacker c being the compressed disk which is just a large file on d and d being the uncompressed disk you should only attempt to stack d in fact with win and smartdrv exe it seems smart enough to automatically default to stacking your a b and d drives roger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why does my window restart my computer files buffers device c windows himem sys device c windows smartdrv exe double buffer stacks and also my autoexec bat c vshield c windows smartdrv exe l rem mouseware setup path c c dos c windows c fax c mouse c wp set temp c windows temp mouse ser rem c dos share have you seen this problem before please help me out thanks hadi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to make an rle file i m told that i can replace the colorful windows logo that appears as windows invokes with a graphic of my choosing the challange is that the image must be in rle format i ve got gif s pic s jpg s tif s etc everything but rle s what s the best route to converting these things what program should i download and from where has anybody else done this and do you have the steps available thanks e mail to ivory e sa epi syr ge com or ivory tower com would be prefered
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microcal origin working model new version uploaded to cica i ve recently uploaded to cica the current v version of the working model of microcal origin a scientific and technical d d graphics and data analysis package for windows x the working model is d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as i do it s currently in pub pc win uploads as origin zip include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re upgrading to windows nt in article p psilink com nathan gregory p psilink com says i d like to appeal to the net s nt wizards for a bit of advice this sounds like a good question the hardware is specific to him but in general please respond to him via news and not e mail there probably are alot of people wanting to read the replies including myself mike packard aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave l this is the part that usually gets me while i am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life if you only willing to look at the stock price and sales numbers for gratification usually you ll end up with japanese or whoever that is competitive owing your business i e short sighted imo this is very irresponsible narrow minded and selfish henceforth ignoring the attack is not the right approach as a matter of fact i just happen to believe the willingness to debate and readjust is the greatest assets of this society sales number and stock price is the short term result not the cause
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms test help question is there a newsgroup for it hi i would like to know if there is a seperate newgroup for discussion of ms test or quality assurance issues or if not what newsgroup would be the appropriate one to use does compuserve or microsoft themselves have a bbs people can call for help on such thanks please email response to djw wang com d helmet rules what s up doc djw wang com i have a plan now and a clue
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps clip art sale less than of mailorder price i have three libraries all on cd which cost me over two thousand dollars mail order they are all genuine high quality eps vector graphics not just some scans with a silly eps wrapper they are totem graphics color eps library about color eps images this costs a thousand bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as high quality much better than dynamic graphics clip art sotmc clip art etc in my opinion but i rate both the g library and the c a r library as higher totem s art is all color whereas most of the other s are b w it s the best all color library out there in my opinion c a r graphics library haven t counted how many images but you can purchase the library on floppies to give you an idea of the size this costs about hundred bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as very high quality but it s only b w g graphics library very popular in all the mac mags this costs about hundred bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as very high quality got some awards in one of the major mac mags forgot which some of the images are color but most are b w for what it s worth all three of the cd s are saved in multiple file formats they are readable on mac s and pc s additionally totem s will mount native next also although the next could just as easily mount either the mac or pc filesystems i ve personally tested the cd s on all three machines i ve owned all three machines although i sold my next a few months ago also in my opinion the g and c a r libraries are the best in the business and i ve seen lots also totem s is in my opinion the best all color library around although i like g s color art better i want for everything can ship certified check c o d as well as visa mc charge if you pay by visa mc i ll ship pre paid in the continental u s if i ship c o d buyer pays freight and c o d fee reason for selling no longer have dtp business please respond via email or telephone as i rarely check these news groups nevin email npratt glacier sim es com voice h w x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple printers through print manager in article lance lance lancea actrix gen nz lance lancea actrix gen nz lance andrewes writes how does print manager deal with multiple printers we re planning to print to two printers from an application one will be a real printer and the other a fax program will print manager just deal with the jobs one at a time or will it feed to both printers at once please research carefully just because a fax modem behaves like a printer on a local machine doesn t guarantee functionality when a local machine has fax software printing to a remotely installed fax card i tried this with workgroups and the fax software didn t like it at all could have been winfax s peculiarisms but i don t think so a lot of special hardware interaction takes place internally in my case a fax manager program merely intercepts the print job and spools it to it s own directory not print manager s spool directory to software it appears the job was printed print manager plays no part in the handling of the actual process pardon me if i ve incorrectly assumed this is what you were up to a truely network aware fax modem will most likely be required or a lot of weird setup and tinkering good luck
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond stealth in article s charm magnus acs ohio state edu vromanel magnus acs ohio state edu vincent a romanelli writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth isa graphics accelerator card based upon a positive review by steve gibson of infoworld although it s fast i find its windows drivers extremely buggy despite implementing all of the diamond technical support suggestions does anyone else have any experience with this card any feedback appreciated i have had a lot of problems with it i belive i have the latest drivers for it there are some occasions when i fire up windows it works great if you ever find newer drivers i would appreciate a pointer to there location paul
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re monitors for windows alwin hoogerdijk alwin zen et tudelft nl wrote julio botelho hlbbs uucp julio botelho writes is does anyone know whether or not it is possible to have monitors working is with microsoft windows i have a taxan multi vision and a nec this may work when using a vga and a hercules card in one system but using two vga cards in one system will never work i believe that two a may be used in tandem on one system this is the one exception to the vga mono dual monitor combo that i have heard about has anybody done this jim mc james d mcnamara member of technical staff tasc walkers brook drive reading ma x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vbrun dll marion humboldt kent edu lou marion writes can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks lou marion dept of geography kent state university marion humboldt kent edu sure oh sorry this is not rec humor try cica in pub pc win get index to see where it is all opinions expressed are my own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vbrun dll can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks should come with visual basic new version is vbrun dll thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re adding icons to progman exe florian piekert floppy s link escape de wrote hi out there is there anybody who can write me how to add icons to the iconlist which is build into of progman exe i m grateful for every clue thanx and have a nice day one way is to use a program called iconmaster it s shareware and if you can t get it mail me and i ll post it to you matthew simpkin kingston university a primitive race you too cs e kingston ac uk computer science shall be asimilated
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re solution multi setups on standalone easy peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include c winmastr and your specific configuration path e g c winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or a menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide a menu with a menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron temp at intel views are my own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters this is the part that usually gets me while i am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life like it or not stock prices and sales of a particular product are measures of success they can be measures of short term or long term success i think in ms case they are a good measure of their long term success the original post mentioned how it seems on this group that there are a large number of people attacking ms and not willing to accept anything positive about ms i was trying to make a point that the attacks are over emphasized and to look at the sales of ms products they definitely tell a different story i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don t want to grep and auck and ls l they just want to push the buttons and get their job done on a reasonably priced piece of hardware that does not need a computer smart guy to load configure etc etc like it or not ms and the multitudes of business applications that exist to run under windows does this and does it well we are running pc s loaded with a complete suite of mostly ms windows applications in an administrative business function on a novell network running all software off the server it does the job quite well and if we had it to do over again we would pick windows again again i repeat to ms keep doing what you are doing you are doing a great job flame on thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit access i have a gateway dx v does anyone know if i csn or can t duse bit access d d
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re floorplan layout program in article chemical watstar uwaterloo ca gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca phil trodwell writes hi i m desperately seeking a preferably shareware program to assist in the architectural layout of a house floorplan does something like this exist other than basic cad programs please e mail i don t always get to the news before it expires thanks in advance phil trodwell the best i ve seen is visio runs under windows it s not shareware however gary williamson aka wwilliam polaris orl mmc com orlando florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head to head win and os after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	odd mouse behavior hi one of my coworkers is having a very odd problem his mouse works fine in dos applications if you load them from the c prompt under windows the mouse pointer is present but does not move even if you load a dos app under windows the mouse doesn t work the computer is a zeos sx w diamond speedstar vga running ms dos and windows mouse driver is microsoft s i ve tried switching the mouse from com to com i ve tried a different mouse i ve reinstalled mouse drv and i can t get the blamed thing to work the only difference between his system and mine where the mouse works perfectly is that he has an expansion card with an additional parallel and serial port could that cause the problem thanks in advance for any help carl fink carlf panix com c fink genie if you can t laugh at yourself then you can bet that everyone else is doing so ed johnston
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about dos external join command in article srg c i spud hyperion com the author writes i am setting up my dos unix box on a m ide and a m scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command i like the way it sets things up since i won t have to stick with the c d e crap that dos enforces i like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems i have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell i have been using the join command for many years now mostly with good success in duplicating unix style file mounts you will hear lots of people cursing join because they confuse it with the dos append command a truely gnarly hack but don t believe them you also will hear people saying that microsoft recommends that you not use join but in microsoft s windows workgroups resource toolkit the following appears join an ms dos utility works fine with windows for workgroups if you do not change the state of the joined drives during a windows for workgroups session this includes adding or removing joined drives from within windows for workgroups we recommend that you do not use join when running windows setup or windows for workgroups within this caveat join appears to be valid under windows however i have found a couple of applications that don t deal well with filesystems that have been mounted using join in particular the worst offender is word for windows x it gets very confused when you edit and then try to save a file on a joined drive it wants to create the saved file as nnnnn tmp in the current dir then delete the old file and rename the nnnnn tmp file to the doc file unfortunately wfw usually writes the nnnnn tmp file in some idiotic place other than the current directory often in the root dir of the joined filesystem but not always then after deleting the original doc file it can t find the nnnnn tmp file to rename it unless you search your disk systems the document is gone i have also found subtle problems using the mks toolkit from a dos box when joined filesystems are present i used to join c temp with a meg ramdisk but mks sometimes gets confused when doing an ls on the c temp dir and misses some files in the temp dir this is difficult to reproduce but it goes away totally when join is not used i think this is a windows problem rather than mks s since it works ok under raw dos so i would suggest that you can use join but be aware that it may not be as robust you would like wouldn t it be real great to mount network drives i e z under the main file tree rather than having all those darned drive letters unfortunately join won t let you do it there was talk on the net about a simple patch to let join work on network drives but i don t remember the source it s too bad the join command is not better implemented since it would avoid using all those stupid drive letters i realize that messdos was meant for casual even ignorant users so mounting all the drives in one file tree might be confusing but it looks like ms is going to carry this over into windows nt another os meant for casual even igorant users not with all it s old family system baggage maybe ms needs a recovery group so they can get on with life jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls po box ft collins co voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	playing midi music on ati stereo f x cd sound card i am running windows in enhanced mode the sound card i have is the ati stereo f x cd sound card which claims adlib and soundblaster compatibility using windows mediaplayer i can play the midi files that came with my sound card however i can t play any of the midi files that belong to the winjammer midi editor that i ftp d from cica i also can t play any midi files i generate with muzika also from cica when i try to play the files a dialog box pops up saying that the music may not play right and it has a checkbox asking me if i wish to disable this message in the future is this normal or do i have something set wrong i would really like to be able to write music on muzika and have my computer play it i also ftp d the game dare dream for windows from cica and its music won t play either i get the same dialog box the midi mappers that i have are ati ext midi ati opl midi and vanilla i have tried using all three any help suggestions shoulders to cry on etc would be appreciated very much john p john punshon punshon cs usask ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for switching to the program manager in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one regards ake ake knutsson email knut tts lth se dept of communication systems uunet tts lth se knut lund institute of technology sweden fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose a question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did i misunderstand your statement shareware is available from the net magazines distributors clubs friends and bulletin boards i don t think people have any problems getting hold of it fill gaps in dos there s no need for many people dos provides more services than i need as it is i just run windows on top of it btw my windows must be an operating system it provides a disk operating system that dos can t access nfs thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz long ears make good handles
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters lots of stuff deleted because i felt like it this ms bashing has definitely lost all its humor value i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users brian disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws s st tt user developer if i wanted a computer to play games bell northern research on i d buy an amiga however i have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winfax files in ascii format in zhao may sparta nmsu edu zhao nmsu edu z zhao writes currently we are using winfax software to receive send fax on our pcs it works pretty well the problem is that all received files are in bit map format which take lots of hd space i have been told there is some programs that can do pattern recognition of the raster characters in fax in files and translate them into ascii code then store the file in ascii format would you like to tell me whether or not there is such software package to do such translation if there is one where can i find it is any such software package on public domain what version of winfax do you have the newest version has an ocr optical character recognition built in what this means is that it can take a fax ie a letter and convert it into ascii so that one can edit the document w o re typing it however i found that the ocr that comes packaged with winfax does not work as well as omnipage professional also by delrina software so once again winfax ver has what you are looking for good luck regards zizi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows vs communication proagrams in article lee seas ucla edu victorf wright seas ucla edu victor friedman writes can anybody tell me what exactly windows does to the com ports why can t i run a single communication program under windows i have procomm quicklink commo neither of them respond to modem commands after the connection has finally been established although i m still able to manage vick victorf seas ucla edu this is one of the trickiest problems w win personally i run telix for dos under windows just fine and ve been waiting for the win version froever but i have to admit i am the exception to the rule i have tried installing various dos comm progs on friends machines most of them w big problems some of the stuff you have to lookout for always run the prog thru a pif never by calling its exe in the pif always toggle on lock application memory actually this is something ms points out in the readme wri file and is especially critical for downloading go under ctrl panel enh and check for all your com ports alway warn it will help u w debugging this thing and it s healthier check where are u running the mouse from com port check the com port addresses from your bios setup and from ctrl panel ports setup advanced these might help u if yu still have problems get and buy procomm win hope it helps somehow costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs i don t think the question is will os x x run windows y y apps now a more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future can it keep up will a future os run windows apps ole is very complex and is the sign of things to come after this fall i believe ibm no longer has any rights to view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would you want to reverse engineer an ole application john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito s at ibm all that s left of its employee base are the deadbeats i suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in a couple of weeks brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft bbs number hi can anyone tell me what microsoft bbs number is i tried the one that is given on the dos upgrade manual but that number never answered the call thanks please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re solution multi setups on standalone easy rhudson gomez intel com ron a hudson writes peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include c winmastr and your specific configuration path e g c winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or a menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide a menu with a menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron excellent suggestion ron and as a further comment on dos if you decide to install windows standalone configuration completely in more than directory on your hard drive and use dos to jump to a specific copy for each user you could be saving yourself many megs of disk space if you use the setup n and a technique peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	s card problems i posted a message here some time ago asking why my mouse was so jumpy well i think i know why and it doesn t have anything to do with the mouse it seems to be the video driver here s why i think that a few weeks ago i helped a guy install the driver for his s video card for windows he had been using the normal windows default vga driver we don t have the same kind of mouse mine is microsoft serial and his is an off brand serial mouse his mouse worked fine until i installed the s v driver on his system then his mouse became really jumpy too is there anything i can do i need high resolution since i display lots of stuff on my screen ami pro pegasus mail for windows wp office sorry nondisclosure and alot more i noticed there are s drivers on ftp cica but they are the same version that i already have and they are no help i already tried sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver in article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey start the renamed saver vid the commandline option s frank
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose a question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did i misunderstand your statement it s called the free enterprize system i suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can t be everything to everyone period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c q cc uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article c ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito s at ibm all that s left of its employee base are the deadbeats i suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in a couple of weeks perhaps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu if you wait until may the th you will be able to buy the new os since it will be released at comdex that day it will run windows apps and windows enh mode if you can t wait then you can ftp a months old beta version from ftp os nmsu edu but this version is probably a lot slower than the final product when you do your test please have in mind that a single tasking system will always be faster at doing one task the real power of os lies in the multitasking and can t really be measured by a stopwatch happy benchmarking hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may emr emr ca jagrant emr emr ca john grant writes i don t think the question is will os x x run windows y y apps now a more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa but the most important question is will there be any os apps so we don t have to load windows in the future and maybe the question of the future will be will windows x run os y y apps now regards hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os i really think you are comparing apples and oranges nobody disputes that os has more big os features the question is does an individual need the power the sales of windows vs os answer that question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse set of applications to run on it that allow me to productviely do my work go to your local computer store to answer this one i think the comparison you need to be doing is nt vs os this is where the new battle lines will be drawn windows has won the single user pc war the next one will be the client server war and the entries are nt os unix and netware granted these os s will be eventually scaled down to be attractive to the single user pc and that will probably be phase ii of the war who wins only the marketplace will tell but it sure is fun watching and arguing about it tho thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	memory does anyone know how to absolute memory locations in windows ie hardware that is memory mapped at very high addresses mb and above please reply by email thanks david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re data segments and memory model usage hello phjm you wrote firstly does windows in enhanced mode do anything special with dlls that have been compiled using the large memory model no we are being told that even in enhanced mode windows will load dlls into real memory below k and page lock it no my second question relates to static data inside dlls is there any way at all to get multiple instances of the static data segment dgroup no but you can allocate real static data within code segments when you need more dynamic memory you can allocate data on the global heap you can forget most of what was written about memory management under you have paged virtual memory you can lock every block without hampering the memory manager you can use far pointer everytime without always lock unlocking the memory block an besides dll s are mostly just disguised exe s that happen to be called by another task karl karl w geitz hauptstr w salzgitter kwgeitz s link escape de tel fax cis bix geitzkwg crosspoint v
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don t want to grep and auck and ls l they just want to push the buttons and get their you mean grep unix is case dependent and awk where did you get auck from mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re demonstration creation program wanted in article c v ro ug cs vu nl martijn cs vu nl lemmens ml writes i m looking for a program or toolkit with which it is possible to create demonstrations very fast with a demonstration i mean a collection of screens the one that is looking to the demonstration should be able to make choices by pressing buttons to change screens hypertext each screen will contain a question text or bitmap and a few answers buttons it should be possible to play music and or show animations film i ve heard of animator pro and visual basic but i don t know what these can do autodesk animator is a good tool the one i like is show partner fx if you want it i could give a copy to you i did a lot of advertising with it it lets you create both graphics any resolution and text frames run it all as a film you can make choices and include music i guess that s just what you need if you re really interested email me vick victor friedman victorf seas ucla edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article uupcb hal k com scott lynn hal k com scott lynn writes well i do alot of graphic design work and i am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn t though and i can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of a program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session i want to do the transfer in windows instead macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck c j callison whale st usm edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	my os is better than your os so there was challenge to ms supporters haven t we wasted enough bandwidth on this silly discussion already please no flames let sanity prevail richard maclennan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c c k yk news rich bnr ca bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line you can t customize a command line interface where have you been i can change the prompt i can make aliases so someone like me who is used to say ls can type it on my dos machine and still get a directory listing and under unix if i don t like the command line interface i throw it out and get a different one csh bash ksh sh etc so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception this is true face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users a decent gui for all variations of unix lessee what about motif or the stuff from mit twm comes to mind those are pretty standard heck an xwindows program runs like it likes to all the end user has to really know is how to manipulate the actual windows with the mouse and since it is a gui it s graphical and a bit easier to figure out something the windows people have been pressing down our throats for some time now the thing i fear is that there will be a gap between the normal users running windows all flavors and the other power users running unix and other more advanced oses at least right now dos is still pretty much king i can bring a copy of my latest whiz bang programming demo over to my friends house and since we both run dos he can enjoy it too agrier gompers gompers edu or tfinn crash cts com preferred
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re creating a batch file from windows nt in sasswb k sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes i saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it a separate product or part of windows ksh would do what i need if i could count on it at all nt sites i imagine that was the mks toolkit from mortice kern systems another third party add in and a good one too nick langmaid nick brimbank apana org au melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	do we need sdk as well as ddk the microsoft windows device driver kit ddk documentation blurb states that the user must separately acquire the microsoft windows software development kit sdk which contains the windows tools to build the drivers if we are using borland c with application frameworks is this necessary we also have a copy of the microsoft press programmer s reference library books which normally comes with the sdk and microsoft macro assembler why is the sdk neccessary for development of virtual device drivers steven murray posted on behalf of brian davies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c uq ii feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car then why don t you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don t have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn t mean that something shouldn t be done to remedy the situation mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stop message received running windows application menu i am running windows on a sx mhz with five megs of memory the motherboard came with one meg and i added the four megs this past weekend they were x simms i had installed in the application menu ms dos command park up till today it parked the disk from the application menu without any problem when attempting to park the heads today i received the following message stop this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be terminated what does this message mean thanks david de trolio detrolio andromeda rutgers edu we in the united states can have increased revenue without punishing or penalizing those who have obtained personal and economic achievements
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem with winqvt net and dos i have been using winqvt net under win dos for quite sometime without any problem i recently installed dos on my pc and i cannot run winqvt net any more i keep getting packet received for invalid port reset sent messages on the console window i can t get more than telnet window and can t use ftp any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks george kontoravdis condor ccwf cc utexas edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone heard of deltree brandon wise bwise nyx cs du edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters as long as we re bashing typography csympc scs leeds ac uk m p conmy writes unix is case dependent yes unix is case dependent pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com microsoft windows like putting lipstick on a chicken
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey try exe s s for save screen c for config defaults to c the question is not if a tree falls in the forest and no one sees or hears did it fall but rather how many koalas can that one tree take out tim cpsg com au tim fox cp software pty ltd acn ph cato street east hawthorn fax victoria australia acsnet tim cpsg com au the question is not if a tree falls in the forest and no one sees or
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know i m not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the k disk i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc can t read it this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if i m wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may gps leeds ac uk csympc scs leeds ac uk m p conmy writes in article c uq ii feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car then why don t you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don t have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn t mean that something shouldn t be done to remedy the situation these are perfectly valid points and i agree i m glad we ms are starting to remedy this situation with dos and it will get better in future releases you do need to be aware of some history however in the mid late s ms s point of view was that os was going to take over the world and dos would be phased out as such resources for dos and windows for that matter development were mostly redirected to os the theory was to keep just enough resources on dos to support people until they started using os so utilities and such for dos fell by the wayside then windows hit the market os flopped x at least x seems to be doing a little better but its future is still cloudy and people either stayed with their dos x and x apps or moved to windows about that point in time ms made its decision to drop os for dos windows in the short term and windows nt in the long term dos much improved over dos x and x was the first result of ms s refocussing on dos and windows version takes things somewhat further and i suspect future versions will offer even more in terms of real os features i work on nt and have no real clue about what my coworkers over in dosland are doing but i do know that there are a heck of a lot more of them than there were a few years ago dave of course these are my opinions if you want ms s opinions as a pr person
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w w tables and hplj ii printer after setting up a very large pages table in word for windows i asked word to print it to my hp laserjet ii worked fine at first after much editing of the table contents but not structure output requests now kick the lj into manual feed mode for the document containing the table other documents without tables print correctly where should i look and what should i change to get the document with the long table to use the paper drawer rather than kick into manual feed mode i believe i ve tried all the obvious printer manager changes as well as replacing the hppcl lp files with archived versions thanks for any and all help peter peter palij internet pbp columbia edu columbia university graduate school of business uris hall new york ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tiff file viewer needed hello i am in need of a file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively a package to run an x server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever i end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tiff file viewer needed in article may cs sfu ca chapman cs sfu ca john chapman writes hello i am in need of a file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively a package to run an x server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever i end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca paintshop pro for windows is a fantastic product it can handle tiff gif bmp pcx and many other formats displaying them and converting between them there is a shareware version of the program i assume it s available in the windows areas of the standard anonymous ftp locations i d try ftp cica indiana edu log in as ftp use your username as a password and look for a program called psp exe or something like that i have the registered version and the only major difference i can detect is that the unregistered version pops up a message when you start the program asking you to please register it once again fantastic software up to bits huge images everything brian brian kasper aka prisoner my hovercraft is full of eels the aerospace corporation internet kasper aerospace aero org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in t agf agate berkeley edu miyamoto ucsee berkeley edu carleton a y miyamoto writes in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know i m not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the k disk i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc can t read it this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if i m wrong you re right you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii k disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in a pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	chameleon nfs ne card hi i got a ne compatible ethernet card and i just received my copy of chameleon nfs unfortunately it is not compatible with the ne only ne or ne what is the latest version number for chameleon nfs did soemone tackle this problem thanks for help f popineau e mail popineau ese metz fr popineau loria fr voice mail surface mail ecole superieure d electricite rue edouard belin f metz cedex france
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com mike dahmus writes in may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes note i have been working for ms for the past years i have been a developer for the past os is technically superior to windows considering that ms makes more money per copy of os sold than ibm and we co wrote most of it differences between os and os os had about half the memory requirements os was quicker even at half the memory os was much more stable oh and one more thing ibm did os by themselves yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work so we co wrote it may be technically accurate but it s really a red herring as the bits that are selling the product weren t written by you don t forget seamless win apps on os ms couldn t do it viz wlo but ibm managed to do it right tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work i don t think ms has anything to brag about when it comes to following dpmi but then consistency is the hobgoblin etc i suppose tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for switching to the program manager from article may lth se by knut tts lth se ake knutsson in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one put progman with the hotkey in your startup group should do it zi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with w scan can somebody help me out of this i just installed the version of mcafree anti virus program and when i tried to scan the entire hard disk i got the message of sorry i can t open xxxx for a couple of files including the wscan exe this didn t happen before in previous version nor appear on my friend s machine thankx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows exit problem hello i have a problem with my window program sometimes when i save settings of program manager the system corrupt one or more grp files and progman exe can t open it on next start thanks for any answer chrobert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies re irish gaelic truetype font wanted synopsis i wrote can anyone tell me where i can find an ms windows truetype font that will give me the characters used in writing irish gaelic in the old style for example in this font the letter t would look something like a c with a horizontal bar sitting on the top and the letter g would look something like an s with a horizontal bar sitting on the top many thanks to those who responded to my question unfortunately i have had no luck in actually getting such a font and a lot of people interested in geting one and so i have decided to create my own truetype font fitting that description this font is based on that used in the issue of dineen s dictionary and is typical of that found in irish books from the early part of the century this may take me some time to do in my limited spare time but i ll make it available to anyone who is interested when it is ready the responses i received are summerised below kevin donnelly caoimhin smo ac uk mentioned that michael everson everson irlearn ucd ie had developed some clo gaelach fonts for the macintosh and may be able to advise me i contacted michael and he told me that he has three fonts available for the macintosh and that he will eventually port them to the pc but that he will be charging ir about for each one pbryant ukelele gcr com mentioned that he uses two font that have a nice irish gaelic look to them these are durrow and american uncial normal i don t know where you can get these but i don t think that they have the effects i am looking for finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what i was describing i faxed casady greene for info but got no reply so that s it i ll post these newsgroups when i make my font available colum twomey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond windows conflict hello i have some problems with my diamond stealth local bus graphic card when i try to start windows my system stop and display no free files handles cannot load command system halted it s perhaps a bios setup problem but i m not used to my ami bios setup if somebody can explain me how to setup shadow video rom others shadow rom and also how to config the two advenced setup for a best utilisation of my graphic card thanks for any answer ch robert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	best shareware rograms i know that there is a list of the best shareware and public domain programs for windows at the cica ftp site but unfortunately it is a year old the list author made it sound like the list was going to be updated every month is it still being updated does anyone else compile a similar list also are there any individual suggestions as to what the best shareware public domain programs are i m interested in good software in just about every category please try and include the ftp site and exact file name if possible in your post thanks sam siockman leland stanford edu it will be good david broza
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone heard of deltree it is the new command with dos that allows you to erase your directory and all the files in it without first erasing the individual files dana wells ba yes another male dana wilfrid laurier u waterloo on urban geographers well mach wlu ca plan it better
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted hypertext or alike for win in fact i m looking for a possibility to connect different peaces of information like in the windows help system and no i don t want to program such a system by myself the necessary effort and afford should be as small as possible thanx in advance thomas
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know well you can t say that it don t work the inability to read k mac disks is not a sw problem rather it s a hardware limmitation on pcs i have seen a post about a program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with a watchamacalit ma memory s faling card which you just drop into a com port or something don t remember specifics tho peace mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition i have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best i m glad i m not one of them kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code c isn t this the point of a better windows than windoze brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word for windows problems in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows i get a couple of error messages along the lines of can t find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall a new printer similar for the font fences i know i have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them i have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found a way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks jason cleeve j cleeve ieee org q comp sci hons elect eng t la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve j cleeve ieee org q comp sci hons elect eng t la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article uupcb hal k com scott lynn hal k com scott lynn writes well i do alot of graphic design work and i am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn t though and i can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of a program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session i want to do the transfer in windows instead i would appreciate any info i want a windows program but i will gleefully settle for dos a program called mac ette allows you to read mac high density disks on a dos machine you can get the program from simtel i m not sure of the directory location jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective i have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best i m glad i m not one of them no comment
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word for windows problems in article may lugb latrobe edu au cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve writes in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows i get a couple of error messages along the lines of can t find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall a new printer similar for the font fences i know i have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them i have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found a way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks it s back congratulations you ve just discovered a very nasty and very frequently ecountered bug in the word setup program once you know what is wrong it is quite easy to fix go into the fonts dialog under control panel and select the two fonts mt extra and fences delete them but only delete the list entries not the disk files now select add and add the fonts mt extra plain and fences plain close the font box close control panel and restart word everything should be alright now does anyone know if microsoft has fixed this thing yet they have to know about it by now it s been so frequently reported daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	logic of backup i have been backing up my hard drive ever since i had to re install everything from scratch after a crash learned the hard way didn t i i am using a windows based backup program actually norton and i began wondering about the logic of this sure if i accidentally delete a file i can get it from the archive but what if my disk crashes again i would not be able to start windows to run the backup program note by crash i mean there was some error message that prevented the machine from booting properly i think i gave up too early but i didn t have the time patience tools to figure out exactly what the problem was my hard drive needed cleaning up anyway yeah right this whole scenario is complicated by the fact that i am using stacker so i think there are possibilities i m right if my disk really crashes i would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working i m wrong there is an easy way to make a mirror of a hard disk that can easily restore it s state from scratch the polls are open tom ioerger univeristy of illinois cs grad student ioerger cs uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos o wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de gmd gesellschaft fuer mathematik und datenverarbeitung mbh schloss birlinghoven p o box include w sankt augustin germany std disclaimer hpp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there s klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and jg after this fall i believe ibm no longer has any rights to jg view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain jg some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would jg you want to reverse engineer an ole application don t they retain windows nt oem status if so that gives them nt source code and since windows is headed toward nt win s win c slmr a t a g l i n e m e a s u r i n g g a u g e the file bank bbs pcboard v a e usr hst ds nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection in the world
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know well you can t say that it don t work the inability to read k mac disks is not a sw problem rather it s a hardware limmitation on pcs i have seen a post about a program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with a watchamacalit ma memory s faling card which you just drop into a com port or something don t remember specifics tho peace mickey on all mb drives both mac and pc the disk spins at a constant rpm on k mac disk drives the spin rate of the disk is varied so that the tracks pass under the head at a constant speed a slower rotation for the outer tracks and a faster rotation for the inner tracks a pc needs special controller hardware to make this happen brian casey bnc macsch com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re logic of backup in the newer versions of norton backup for windows at least there is an emergency disk which will allow you to restore from tape without reinstalling dos windows i understand it s sort of cumbersome to use but not nearly as much as reinstalling everything steven a mccluney better to remain silent and be sam chensun m tamu edu thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubts i can hardly speak for myself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse i think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is a multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more i actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable i also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram a and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against a wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows because of the technology apple uses with their k disks ibm pc cant read them without special hardware m disks work more alike ibm s so we only can read m disks on a pc andy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os i m waiting for june first to roll around when i can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip i know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface i think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box if this flies in enhanced mode then here s another contender to look out for in the corporate education market too big and complex for the home front windows mac sys will take those while win wkgrps nt os will fight it out for the small to mid businesses however once the powerpc becomes available especially in laptop notebook form then these will migrate into all markets the ability to connect up to a unix machine at work and yet still run windows mac apps at home is going to be real attractive to alot of people just my predictions mike mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm st apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock mi michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows you re right you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii k disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in a pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough i agree that this should be added to some sort of faq list but we have strayed from the original topic our computer environment is pretty split between mac s and pc s i am lucky and get to have both on my desk but there are people who have pc s and need to share data with the mac users here the mac users have no problems because of package called dos mounter which automatically lets the mac read dos disks natively for the pc there is no equivilant that i know of both mac ette and macsee have been inconsistant under the dos platform and requires you to perform the activity in a dos program to selectively transport the files the question originally posed was if there is such a program that hooks into windows like a dll that will interpret the reading of a mac disk when it is in a pc and allow access to it through the standard file dialogs it is quite clear that this would only be available for the mb flopies t j fiske tfiske qualcomm com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange windows problem my windows installation has somehow gone awry whenever i try to run windows now the logo comes up ok but when it tries to enter windows itself the screen gets totally screwed up as if it s in the wrong graphics mode or something it s completely illegible although functional as i can still exit to dos with an alt e return combination i tried to reinstall windows again but if you recall halfway through the installation process install takes you into windows and there my graphics problem surfaces again so i cannot complete the re installation all this started after trying to get a game working on my system but my config sys and autoexec bat have been restored to what they were before this problem cropped up i m running a dx with a diamond stealth vram i ve resinstalled the stealth video drivers again but with no luck i m also using qemm and stacker but windows is installed on an un stacked partition and of course it worked perfectly before any email replies and suggestions would be appreciated thanks hutch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re logic of backup in article c g j pk cs uiuc edu ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu thomas ioerger writes so i think there are possibilities i m right if my disk really crashes i would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working using the software you re using i agree with you there what i did i installed dos windows and cpbackup functionally the same as your norton for the purposes of this discussion and used the dos backup command on just that much to restore i boot to the system diskette and use dos restore to read in that much then boot to windows and restore my full backups using cpb norton in your case overwriting what i ve just restored that allows me to keep this skeletal windows essentially unchanged with all my customization on the real copy done using the rd party backup utility i m wrong there is an easy way to make a mirror of a hard disk that can easily restore it s state from scratch seems possible if you can put skeletal versions of dos and your backup utility on a system floppy then you could restore it all on one go martin lodahl systems analyst capacity planning pacific bell malodah pacbell com sacramento ca usa if it s good for ancient druids runnin nekkid through the wuids drinkin strange fermented fluids it s good enough for me unk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos please apples to apples nt is a beta and as such cannot be accepted as a competitor to win it s not on the market same for os for a couple or weeks o wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de btw cute sig brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may mtu edu msbendts mtu edu michael scott bendtsen writes i m waiting for june first to roll around when i can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip i know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface i think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box it will certainly help to be able to run windows and dos apps but the only way that solaris or os or any other scheme is going to challenge microsoft is if they can somehow get the prices for solaris or os or whatever apps down to a dos competitive level everybody would rather run a solaris app on a solaris system and an os app on an os system they usually just can t afford a unix system because of the high prices for good unix software the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again sigh don t know what your roomate is doing but it must be something wrong are there people who enjoy using windows yes i ll admit to it given a choice between a mac and windows i choose windows every time to start another flame thread iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes it s called the free enterprize system i suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can t be everything to everyone period it has been done but the other companies don t have the marketing budgets that ms do dos for instance is everything that command com should have been but never could be under ms those who use it usually find it more addictive than crack cocaine but they have to rely on word of mouth for sales it seems to have worked pretty good so far but your corporate weenie manager type usually likes to see a big glossy ad in pc magazine that s okay marketing isn t a fundamental human right but they ve got a product that s superior to the dos command interpreter in every way they have a lot more to be proud of than ms does if ms really gave a damn they could duplicate it buy it outright they ve got the money or even use the old ruse of sending engineers out to help them with compatability issues and absconding with the technology dos is a mediocre product at a cheap price backed up by top notch marketing and vendor agreements the mediocre was excusable in the early days when it was someone else s hack but they ve had ten years to play with it an interesting thought on that most ms products that i m aware of in the last few years allow you to access the names of the designers and programmers through easter egg screens including windows or at least have the names buried in the files is there such a thing in dos and or are they too ashamed to have their names on it there s at least one fool in every married couple
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know the easiest way to do this is if you can send the files accross the network this is much easier going from a mac to a pc because you don t have to worry about losing the resource fork of the file often a problem when sending binary files from a pc to a mac
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters om in may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code cliff do you know the difference between windows and win os here s a helpful hint running windows under os is only possible in real mode in a dos box of course this is only possible with windows since windows no longer has a real mode the ability to run standard mode the ability to have an os windows clipboard the ability to run seamless and a few other things were all added by ibm to win os now everybody who is running windows in real mode in a dos box under os x raise your hand finally everybody who is running win os under os raise your hand get the picture cliff mike dahmus internet miked vnet ibm com vnet mdahmus at boca penpm development ibm ipnet mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com ibm personal systems disclaimer not an official ibm spokesman
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos how do you like it compared to os x mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more info on windows help files here is the latest on relocating your help files to a server the winhelp function as i am told by ms does search your path so relocating ms windows helpfiles won t be a problem as long as you include the path to where you move them to however if an application has hardcoded the path into their code so that when winhelp is invoked it searches the given path i e winhelp hwnd c amipro for example then winhelp does not search your path and instead looks only to that directory where you have installed your software i tested this out on a variety of software packages i moved all my helpfiles to the drive z and included this in the path statement here is the results for different software packages norton desktop found helpfiles windows v for workgroups found helpfiles windows v found helpfiles ms powerpoint v found helpfiles ms word found helpfiles ms excel v a did not find helpfiles strange ms foxpro v for windows found helpfiles lotus amipro v did not find helpfiles procomm plus for windows did not find helpfiles i guess this is better than nothing but it would make sense to be able to specify a global path for helpfiles if anyone has any comments or if i can help anyone or if i left something out please let me know lhighley gozer idbsu edu thanks for the help from everyone especially jagrant emr emr ca more info on this topic as it develops
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there s klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl been messin roun progman ini have ye i m gessing you ve been tuning the system that s the only way i can remember getting a blank screen from ctrl esc when one of the progman ini parameters was twinked to or can t remember i ve never seen win do something like that on her own captain tal
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely bruce dubbs bdubbs cs tamu edu wrote another comment at least you have ibm consultants trying to help i ve never heard of microsoft sending customer engineers to a client s organization to help solve problems could be wrong but if they do its not common knowledge microsoft has a division called microsoft consulting that does what ibm fes field engineers do however neither company just up and sends consultants to client sites both companies charge very high hourly rates for on site consulting unless the client has already paid an annual service contract barton wright molecular simulations inc voice bwright msi com burlington ma fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes i agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well i guess things did turn out as i expected hmmm i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria one wonders who s playing semantic games here rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn t speak for me and i don t speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic kp x truetype what s going on i have just added a panasonic kp x pin dot matrix printer to a sx i installed the appropriate windows printer driver i e one specifically for this printer but i m unable to persuade the poxy thing to print correctly what appears to be happening is that the truetype fonts don t get printed properly my experiments show that all graphic images for example a line drawing from corel draw print ok graphicsworkshop for windows happily prints gifs etc ms notepad and ms write will print correctly providing the font s in the text are printer fonts when i print truetype fonts some lines appear to be printed in the wrong order if i change the text font to a printer font the problem is eliminated i have tried using printer drivers for printers which the kx p snappy name emulates namely epsom lq and ibm proprinter x and the same problem occurs if there is some kind soul who can tell me just what the hell is going on i would be most chuffed david h
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help an amiga user find comfort in windows by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows a lot easier please reply via email as i rarely get to read this group thanks so much why would he be such a jerk i know that he doesn t smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn t do cocaine and he doesn t shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn t even drink beer why would he be such a fu ker to me ween why would he be such a jerk i know that he doesn t smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn t do cocaine and he doesn t shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn t even drink beer why would he be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies ctwomey vms eurokom ie colum twomey comments finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what i was describing i faxed casady greene for info but got no reply casady greene seems to be notoriously slow about responding as i ve heard from others who have contacted them they may not reply via fax but via snail mail give them time or contact them again rhia let joy and innocence prevail from the movie toys
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface lotus organizer quick cheap pretty and has all of those features you want a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards you might look at one of the shell alternatives provided by third parties norton desktop for windows for instance personally i like file manager which comes with windows it s much faster than ndw s and the file manager that s part of windows for workgroups even has a decent button bar how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for that first you can do with file manager but the others you ll need to look at ndw or pc tools for windows etc if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows a lot easier please reply via email as i rarely get to read this group thanks so much i haven t yet seen a decent freeware or even shareware shell but it may be just me nectar nirvana the absurd is the essential concept nectar world std com and the first truth a camus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	experiences with dos i have been having trouble posting this article from within tin for over a week if you do get multiple copies my apologies here is a challenge to microsoft or microsort supporters to defend the pathetic state of dos as an upgrade distribution it is a long story but would make good reading for those who are interested in knowing the potential pitfalls of upgrading to dos that i have been able to notice after only about a week of playing around with it my envorinment ti travelmate winsx sx m ram m disk system bios version by texas instruments cl gd vga bios v a by cirrus logic quadtel advance power manager battery pro v b by texas instruments smart drive cache win dos parameters a b windows benchmark winbench tm v by zd labs after updgrading to dos i could not understand why certain things became so slow especially after i decided to try dblspace in the process of finding out why i discovered some interesting things disk performance with double space and smart drive while most things did not appear to slow down most of the time certain applications appeared to run very much slower what was interesting is that commands like chkdsk and defrag were running far too slowly to consider them useful by any standards i suspected double space ds and decided to measure its impact on my system using winbench tm the real disk winmark of for the original system as shipped from factory with dos and windowws became when upgraded to dos with ds thus there is an effective performance degradation of more than percent which did not really surprise me because i knew that ds compression must cost something specifically for short sequential reads up to bytes ds actually improves transfer rates by about because cpu being faster than i o more cpu cycles needed for ds is more than compensated by savings in i o cycles however for all other cases particularly large random writes the transfers take up to three times as long while the performance depends on the type of access i e random or sequential small or large transfer units on the average based on winbench s assumptions the disk slows down to half its speed the tests alone done in real mode see winbench and with smartdrv on do not say much except that it helps to put into those subjective statements like there is no noticable difference in performance or even that it will speed up disk access when you have a fast cpu and slow disk i o this explained why some applications ran markedly slower but not why chkdsk and defrag the latter especially too so long double space and windows dblspace will not run at all from within windows not even if you wanted to only to get information not modify anything or for that matter even check on its usage try fasthelp dblspace in a dos box within windows and you will see what i mean from the error message you get how narrow minded can a programer get i wonder yes this information can be obtained through the mstools dd add on to file manager but this mstools dll does not understand a compressed floppy use the dos supplement utility to create a compressed floppy if you dont know how to dos defragmenter is incompatible with ti apm defragmentation seemed to take too much time even so i waited patiently till it finished and then ran it again to just to confirm this confirmation dblspace def command for the m drive should take no more than seconds much faster on other defragmenters i have used but it took minutes i discovered that if i moved the mouse defragmentation checking ran faster the figure ticked more rapidly it dawned on me that this had to do with ti s battery saver advanced power management apm module which slows the clock down when it thinks that the cpu is idle and it obviously thought ds defragmentation was an idle process after disabling the ti s power saver this operation took only seconds microsft programmers think ti and gateway nomad users are idiots in the readme txt file you can find the the following running microsoft backup with ti and gateway nomad computers to avoid a conflict between the turbo feature and microsoft backup for windows or ms dos add a l switch to the device command in your config sys that loads the battery pro file or before you run microsoft backup type setpower l at the command prompt if you checked ti s manual on the l option you will realise that it means disable all power saving features of your notebook why would anyone want to run a driver disabled as i have found out not only does ti s power management interfere with microsoft backup as the readme txt claims but chkdsk and dblspace and who knows what else are crippled by the ti s power saver it is obvious that there is not such thing as apm specifications if there indeed is such a thing then either microsoft programmers or ti programmers dont know how to read these specifications you dont have to guess as to who are the idiots by the way if you run the advance power management utility power exe in dos when you check the status it says power management status setting adv max cpu idle of time this figure of seems to be the steady state value on my notebook when i am running nothing windows with only program manager in iconised form does that mean that windows takes up of my cpu all for itself and that i have at best only left for useful work is such an overhead justified whether or not windows is an operating system or just another user interface in dos alone it reports idle time looks like windows is a good example of busy waiting type of package that i like my students to study as the classical negative example of our times microsoft programmers do not know batch programming i like to structure my startup script and thus have the equivalent of addpath statements like this set path c dos set path c etc bin path c bin set path c etc windows path c windows set path path c bcc bin set path path mouse even though the new dos was installed in the same directory as the old one i e c dos dos installation program modifes each and every path statement and prepends c dos to its value as a result my resultant path has so many dos s if the installation program wanted to remove the old dos path and add the new dos path clearly it has to only scan for the path statement containg the old dos directory and replace it by the new dos path even this should only be done if the new dos is installed in a directory different from the old one being upgraded instead the microsoft programmer if you can call this person one decided to meddle every path statement i had in the autoexec and prepend dos to the value i wonder if microsoft is so desparate that it would not fire programmers who are incapable of the thought process i started a thread on this when dos came up and the microsoft representative in singapore called me about this poster in fact he specifically said his us counterparts saw the poster and relayed the information to him as he did not have access to internet now that has not changed one bit in fact if you have a path statement with path already in it is it not obvious that the this statement should not be touched for any reason as another example of the inability of microsoft programmers to understand batch programming i had the mouse driver invoked as set mouse c etc mouse set path path mouse loadhigh mouse mouse com guess what memmaker did it replaced the last statement with lh c etc mouse mouse com why is it so difficult just to replace loadhigh with lh and its parameters without touching the rest of the line i do not understand dos software quality dos is the only operating system i know in which under normal usage you end up creating a file that you cannot get rid of using of the commands that come with it i am deliberately being cryptic about this i challenge microsoft to use all its programmers to catch this bug and publish it if they dont within a week i will post how you can create this ghost file surely if i can pick this bug without even looking for it after using a particular command only twice i am sure two dozen microsoft idiot programmers randomly banging on their keyboards over a week could find it that is what i was told how microsoft tests the quality of their products i think it is funny that microsoft has found ways to test quality when it is accepted in the industry that quality cannot be tested but can only be built into the product no wonder they cannot provide any form of guarantees on their products not even a decent list of bugs that will prevent scores of user from destroying their disks beyond repair also if you run dblspace def often enough repeatedly when the disk is fully defragmented you may get errors that was created by the defragmenters i got my io sys file size error and it got truncated when i did the chkdsk this happend only after five successive defragmentation efforst after the first one supposedly did its job and with no new file creation since microsft dont you dare reply to this poster on the network until you admit that your ds has bugs and are willing to let us know what we should watch out for if we have already used ds jaya dr jayasooriah cse cs e unsw sign in a paris hotel p o box kensington nsw tel fax a sports jacket may be worn to dinner internet jayas vast unsw edu au but not trousers dr jayasooriah cse cs e unsw sign in a norwegian cocktail lounge p o box kensington nsw ladies are requested tel fax not to have children internet jayas vast unsw edu au in the bar
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows in article t ada og fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface i prefer infoselect myself but it is a strange kind of pim a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for well a few things might help you like the file manager better to get more than one window simply double click on a drive icon that it only gives you one window to work with is a fallacy you can drag files between windows to any icon on the tree on the left side of the window and to any drive icon this beats your left and right window as you can have as many open as you wish instead of just two you can launch any app from within file manager by double clicking on the executable s icon you can launch any application and open a document file by double clicking on the document file s icon provided you have associations set correctly this is easily done with the menus the browse capability adds a lot of functionality to so if you name all your text files with txt and point all gif tiff etc files towards paintshop or wingif this takes care of your requirement for text reading and graphics viewing i know someone who prefers using file manager as his shell setting up all the associations you need is the way to do it if directory opus is half as good as file manager then it must be pretty good indeed file manager just needs you to understand how some things are done iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	biobliography program info needed please i think somebody posted some info about a biobliography program one or two months ago i don t rember the detail what i d like to have is one software to organize the literature i m refereing for scientific publications the functions i d like would be a able to do data base managment b able to print with special formats for different journals any info would be appreciated yi ming wang radiation laboratory university of notre dame wang nd edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os forgive me if this is stupid but didn t i see a rumor somewhere that apple was working on an intel platform os say like system for x s chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i install the printshop deluxe in windows with the norton desktop 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screen snapshot is there a way i can save a snapshot of my screen to a file under windows similar to the way one can press cmd shift on a mac please email rather than posting thanks dave fisher fisher lyra hac com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows in article t ada og fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes from stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi subject please help an amiga user find comfort in windows date may gmt by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for i have written the file manager hfm wich has two windows which compare the files in two directorys to find out wether there are equal or similar files the most important operations copy move delete show the file start a progam navigate in the directory tree can be invoked by dragging a directory entry with the mouse this is very convenient because the selection of the file and the operation to be performed occur in one move for bitmap graphic viewing the program vpic can be integrated for spreadsheat and database files i use the view program from pctools hfm can be configured to use arbitrary viewers to show special data formats it does also present archives from pkzip etc as simulated subdirectorys this filemanager has a somewhat non standart user interface but it is very convienient to use and is the prefered file manager in several labs in our university the drawback of this filemanager is it s still a dos program and the development of a windows version has not yet begun i use the program package run zip where run tells its windows companion sched exe which windows program should be started in this way you can start a windows program from a dosbox the new version to be released soon includes a new command for automating this windows program start ftp archives for the mentioned programs all these archives have several mirror sites simtel oak oakland edu filutl hfm zip gif vpic e zip garbo garbo uwasa fi dirutil hfm zip cica ftp cica indiana edu util run zip andreas helke molekulare genetik universitaet heidelberg germany email un ef genius embnet dkfz heidelberg de the header of this posting does not contain a valid smtp mail address
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for medical cliparts my wife is a physiotherapist and she is looking for some cliparts of skeleton and male female body we re currently using windows draw which can import all kind of graphic formats therefore anything will do please advise of the existance of any freeware or commerical source that we can turn to since i don t normally read this newsgroup please responds via e mail thanks in advance jackson loong feeder networking engineering internet jloong dnbf bram cdx mot com motorola codex canada macintosh ljl email mot com matheson blvd voice x mississauga ont l r m fax disclaimer my opinions are my own not motorola s
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati avi drivers in article qfwynh wb rzvpv andrew cmu edu andrew a houghton ah i andrew cmu edu writes i noticed ati had posted beta avi drivers for their mach boards on compuserve has anyone had the chance tgo try them how well do they work very well indeed at home a vl bus version of the graphics pro i can stretch an avi window to x and it will continue to play back smoothly it drops a few more frames but on most machines even attempting such a thing would mean one frame update every seconds an isa graphics was able to do zoom by without any perceptible performance penalty it is the best performance i ve seen so far with the possible exception of an intel indeo board which uses overlay so it doesn t have to move the decompressed data over the isa bus at any point john munsch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	font size for dos in a window x x 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winprinter a real deal hello netters i recenlty aquired enough money to purchase a laser printer the other day i bought the computer shopper mag i was looking through printer review section and noticed the winprinter the machine is incredibly low priced for all the features it has dpi meg ram postscript compatable envelope printing my question is does anyone have one of these or know why the price is so cheap i would appricaiate it if someone would pass on their knowledge on this subject thanks alot dave donuts are a girls best friend
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters i get the picture i just find it humorous that running windows apps for is what makes os more credible cliff
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective i believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as a product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed i have already described why to say briefly system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect do you pick up the glove kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winfax files in ascii format winfax pro provides you with ocr it is the ocr from omnipage although it is not as customizable it does the job and is auto matic if you want and much cheaper than the same package omni page professional sold separatly last time i check winfax pro was only
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	epson stylus does anyone have any information or better first hand experience of the new epson bubblejet printer stylus i m particularly interested in hearing how well it works under windows i presume that a special printer driver is required is it supplied as standard is it able to print everything that a standard postscript laserprinter could many thanks for any replies george george bolt dept of psychology univ of york uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article tasvi qu lll winken llnl gov d fuess writes i for one like windows prior to i had little use for it because of early problems since it is my preferred operating system nah if ms windows were an operating system so would be x windows motif geoworks desqview the shareware win boss c library and that what s it s name text based windowing system written in applesoft that ran on the old faithful apple ii note the similarity all of the above rely on some underlying real os imho they are windowing systems and just that some are cooler than others though whay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re smartdrv and dblspace in a recent article rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes i just received a gateway with windows and dos i ran it a few times with no apparent problems i decided to give double space a try after compressing the drive with no problems i decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace i tinkered a little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace not unreasonable since the smartdrv packaged with dos is version make sure that all your drivers himem emm smartdrv are being executed from the dos directory loss of the cache provided by smartdrv could be your problem if not i don t know what might cause the startup delay my testbed for dblspace which has a very minimal amount of data on the disk so that i don t eat up too much time as i install and uninstall dblspace boots in about seconds from the starting ms dos herald to the end of the autoexec bat execution i don t have handy a system with a more realistic volume of data to time joe morris mitre
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters since i started this twist of this thread kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes i believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as a product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed i have already described why to say briefly actually you fell into the above because you said i believe if you had used the rest of this post in your previous post i do not think anyone would have agrued with you system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking the following three are not the competition for windows imho of course system does not currently run on intel boxes nextstep rather expensive should be a competitor to windows nt not x unix x with the exception of os all of the above will require most users to spend a very large sum of money to upgrade applications to ones that run under these os s and basically money speaks louder than anything else you keep saying more stable multitasking is what you mean not multi finder gem geoworks co operative multi tasking but real honest to goodness prioritized pre emptive multi tasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue basically this is moot since most users have been able to share data for quite a long time but are still to blind to know it by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect do you pick up the glove why pick it up you stated the reasons behind your opinions stated them in a very straight forward though over protective manner and aside from my earlier comments about who actually is a competitor i think we are in agreement does tim glauert agree let s wait and see disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws s st tt user developer if i wanted a computer to play games bell northern research on i d buy an amiga however i have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking also more customizable i can make the computer do what i want it to do whereas with msw i have to do what microsoft wants me to do how do i bind control left mousebutton to type hello world not that i d want to do that but tjl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re smartdrv and dblspace in article rcaldrn epistat rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes i just received a gateway with windows and dos i ran it a few times with no apparent problems i decided to give double space a try after compressing the drive with no problems i decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace i tinkered a little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace the reason for the change from smartdrv exe included with windows to smartdrv exe included with dos is compatability with dblspace be sure you are running smartdrv from your dos directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pctools for windows demo if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st pb elroy uh edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re afterdark startrek out of memory in article may informix com jerry doodles informix com writes i have the startrek version of afterdark running but it nearly always reports space out of memory which floats across the top of the screen what have i not set correctly i ve got m of ram jerry you re right it doesn t appear to working correctly it really should say space the last frontier across the top john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes rick schaut richs microsoft com wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes i agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well i guess things did turn out as i expected hmmm i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria i repeat what are they you mentioned what you tried to present as innovative but what new concept was brought to market an efficient basic basic existed before and efficiency is not original either ole what new concept does that bring document oriented computing the mac had that before msw you simply haven t made your point the burden of proof is upon you my exact challenge what new computing concept has ms brought to market first nothing more nothing less explain how your examples fit that criterion hmm has anyone of us computer geeks me included ever consider that inovation is not limited to software hardware true ms products do not boast features that ms invented but how many products out there by other vendors out there are truely innovative in their continuing development i think what makes ms special to the public is thier innovative pricing it is true the xwindows mac next all have some feature s in thier gui that are better than ms but people like me can t afford them it is true that apple has lower their pricing on the low end models but they are just that low end system is a better operating system but the machines they operate on just are too expensive for my tastes a unix platform is powerful enuf but tell the common user to set up xdefault i am still confused on what some of them things do and they either puke or faint if u think about it low prices aint innovative if u come down to it but for the product it offers and on the lower cost and powerful hardware that it runs on as compare to macs ms is kinda innovative oh yea i guess the fact that the support products and applications they have garnered for mswindows does make them kinda innovative too dixon d ly dly joule elee calpoly edu dly oboe calpoly edu electrical and electronic engineering cal poly slo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re info menu choice in file manager in article shenoy pv f vincent iastate edu shenoy iastate edu shiva shenoy writes in may trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com charles r emmons writes description of file manager info menu option edit the winfile ini file if there is a section addons in it great else add the following two lines if the addons section exists then just add the second line addons info filesize dll note that the filesize dll is a part of the windows resource kit if you install it and you can download it from cica it will make the appropriate changes itself kartik if you quote my article remember to trim it down to the essentials anant kartik mithal akm cs uoregon edu network manager ph d student comp science u of oregon eugene or fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pctools for windows demo st pb elroy uh edu burris dean e writes if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st pb elroy uh edu sorry i don t have the demo but i do have the program and have been using it for the past few weeks since i now have dos as well i don t use many of the features of pct win but i do so use the pct desktop with drag and drop printing folders in folders and multiple desktops the file manager which is far superior to win s fm pat presidente ppreside cln etc bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re capturing screen shots in article acorn co uk i wrote i am trying to capture some colour screenshots from windows currently i have tried pressing print screen to copy the screen to the clipboard then paste the clipboard into the windows paint package many thanks for the replies i received to this a couple of people suggested how i could get the paint package to work properly but in the end i took the advice of someone else to try paintshop pro from cica indiana edu thanks again philip practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article t fl ehs balsam unca edu kepley photon phys unca edu writes in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse i think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is a multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more i actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable i also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram a and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against a wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal exquise me since when does mankind consider twice to be equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal woes i have a vlb machine with a wang fax modem when using the windows terminal application the only way i can get it to see the modem is to change it to com then go back and change it to com then it works fine i have it set to com as the port to use i don t have anything plugged into com and i ve looked over the manual for all it s worth but what am i missing the modem is jumpered for com irq which i understand means i can t use the second serial port and the modem at the same time but i m not using the second serial port anyway also when using procomm for dos it always sees the modem and dials but doesn t always connect me when the other end answers don t know if that helps any thanks brian d reed bdr cbnewsg cb att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati graphics ultra pro problem i have the following problem on a dell se with the ati graphics ultra pro eisa when i start windows the first times i try to run an application it does not start windows will show the following error message error executing application there is not enough memory to run the application after the first tries the application i want to run will start and afterwards there are no more problems when i change the video driver from mach to a this problem does not occur so i suspect the ati drivers i tried both the build and build driver does anyone have a clue p r van harten philips research laboratories tel prof holstlaan fax aa eindhoven email vharten prl philips nl the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed ok now you are starting to define your criteria by this criterion it is inferior i m afraid that you haven t actually proved that you have shown that some aspects of msw are technically inferior to other systems as i said earlier if this is all you are trying to say then it is trivially true but some aspects of msw are actually technically superior to each of the other systems resource requirements performace device support printer support gui etc btw i d love to see the studies which show that unix x is as easy to learn as windows but i might even agree that on balance msw is technically inferior to some of the competition this still does not prove your point if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect range of available applications base os cost cost of applications cost of hardware multi platform support quality of the after sales service availability of books training materials support for visual and physical handicaps suitability for use in mobile computing quality of documentation if you think that technical excellence is the only factor when deciding on an os or indeed the primary factor you need to think again
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	corrected microcal origin package uploaded to cica i ve recently re uploaded to cica the current v version of the working model of microcal origin a scientific and technical d d graphics and data analysis package for windows x the working model is d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as i do it s currently at ftp cica indiana edu in the directory pub pc win uploads as origin zip the file origin zip is unfortunately incomplete sorry bout that include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	enchaced mode with scsi disk i just removed an ide drive and reformated two scsi disk to use as boot disk in a system that did run windows fine in enhanced mode its a dx with meg ram and an adaptec b with bios enabled system runs fine and runs windows in standard mode fine but it returns to the dos prompt when trying to run mode i ve tried emmexclude and sysrombreakpoint what gives thanks in advance hal my views are my own
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports through if there is a standard of any sort please e mail as i don t read this group very often mark tomlinson mark garden equinox gen nz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide cable vacsc qe vax csun edu wrote i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one i already had my problem is this my system only had a ide cable for one drive so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors on it and consequently have to switch cables the problem is the new hard drive s manual refers to matching pin on the cable with both pin on the drive itself and pin on the ide card but for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug in the cable to align these most ide drives that i have dealt with have had pin labeled on the printed circuit board this is sufficient to determine which side is which if your ide drive does not have a label then you can look for a polarization notch in the receptacle the connector on the drive with the pins if the receptacle is center polarized that is it has one rectangular notch about mm wide positioned in the center of one side then you can identify pin as follows look into the pins with the notch at the top pin is at the top right on all drives i have seen this is toward the power connector as for which pin is pin on the controller well you can use the same criteria but look hard for the labelling of any pin once you know which end pin are on or pins the oposite end then you are all set all you need to do is keep the pin end connected to the pin end you don t even have to look at the cable itself just trace the pin side of the cable through usually the pin of the cable is identified by a different color red usually but beware many cable makers are not very careful about this i have seen cables with pin being the one marked red of course with non polarized connectors this doesn t matter you can plug the cable in either way and you decide which side is pin secondly the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into the drives does it matter which i plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks it doesn t matter what gets plugged where but it does matter how the drives are jumpered there will be amongst other options two jumpers that you should be concerned with on both drives one jumper will select whether the drive is the slave or the master if it is the master then a second jumper selects whether or not a slave is present you will have to consult the docuementation that came with you drives if you do not have docuementation then just call the manufacturers hotline number or fax number if they have one this kind of information is routinely needed by people just like yourself they will fax you complete info about the jumpers if you don t have convenient access to a fax machine then you can usually get voice help or post the specific question to this group i probably won t be able to help you good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what do you know about cornell systems the subject says it all i m wondering if anyone on the net has had any experiences with cornell computer systems of california i was checking out their ad in computer shopper and they seem to have a good balance between service price and hardware the question is are they reliable e mail responses would be appreciated thanks adam v q h ubvms cc buffalo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dfi handy scanner how to talk to it i have a dfi handy scanner model hs plus and a little bit of software running under dos to use it i d like to make more extensive use of this device in particular write a driver for it on unix so can anyone give me a description of how to talk to this device it connects to the system via it s own interface card any info would help it can t be too difficult to talk to thanks brian wallis tusc computer systems pty ltd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ip numbers on ethernet cards tigger djohnson moose uvm edu wrote hi is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card thanks in advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave c johnson i think you mean the ethernet numbers the byte ethernet id is the unique electronic serial number esn assigned to each ethernet board in existence this is a physical layer concept the ip address is a higher layer protocol the analogy to telephone service is the ip address is your phone number while the particular wire pair in the cable on the pole has some unknown to you or i physical identification scheme number but to answer your question assuming you indeed meant the ethernet number it is not supposed to be possible to change the number of course the manufacturer can always retro fit a board but there could hardly be a reason to ever do that if your question is actually referring to the ip address it is most definetly changable but it is strictly software gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	themax vga s opinions i am wondering if anyone has any opinions about the themax s svga card i just purchased one due to a great price on it it boasts million true colors with mb onboard if you know anything about this card please respond via mail as this group tends to be overwhelming at times with posts thanks in advance john anderson the views expressed are usually u of nebraska at omaha my own and occasionally someone omaha nebraska usa other than myself but they are internet flick cwis unomaha edu usually correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re s video card at different address in article c myzn pue austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance hartmann writes in article qmrdd h umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it for what it s worth i haven t confirmed it a diamond tech rep told me that all s based video cards use port addresses x e and x e if this is true it appears that you cannot use more than one s card in your system actually there is an s based card on the market that supports multiple adapters in one system unfortunately it is vl bus only they may have an isa version by now from a company called metheus the address and phone number is metheus corp ogc science park nw compton dr beaverton or be aware this is a very high end card capable of mb of vram so it does not come cheap but i have personally seen two of these boards running a dual screen windows lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter mark hall intergraph corporation huntsville al mhall habu b ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sale always in scsi card i have a always in scsi card for sale w manuals software and cables make your best offer on this gyro ucsd edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr elroy uh edu st r elroy uh edu b j guillot writes in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke yep i ve done this too the trick is to use a tiny screwdriver and push down on the latch of each pin and then pull it out of the connector label each one first with tape so you don t get them confused after you ve pulled them out compare the pinout tables in the mitsumi and soundblaster manuals to get the correct orientation arlen martin at t att attme stcarm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	old keyboards never die hello i am almost ashame to ask this question it really looks like a faq but couldn t find the answer anyway the original ibm pc xt or key keyboard is in my opinion still the best keyboard around function keys on the right place eh left place firm click etc is there any chance to connect one of these to a modern at clone i do understand that the new at keyboard has more functionality i e the typematic repeat rate is programmable etc it seams to me that the pins electrical specs of the old and the new keyboard are however the same maybe the communication protocol is different please answer by e mail also if you can tell me that is absolutely impossible in that case i will bring the keyboard the museum of obsolete technology thanks duco duco fijma tel x university of twente fax x p o box internet fijma cs utwente nl ae enschede the netherlands no ugly pictures in this sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dma and detach in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time think it s the scsi card doing the dma transfers not the disks the scsi card can do dma transfers containing data from any of the scsi devices it is attached when it wants to an important feature of scsi is the ability to detach a device this frees the scsi bus for other devices this is typically used in a multi tasking os to start transfers on several devices while each device is seeking the data the bus is free for other commands and data transfers when the devices are ready to transfer the data they can aquire the bus and send the data on an ide bus when you start a transfer the bus is busy until the disk has seeked the data and transfered it this is typically a ms second lock out for other processes wanting the bus irrespective of transfer time also i m still trying to track down a copy of ibm s at reference book but from their pc technical manual page the fdd adapter is buffered on the i o bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers i expect to see something similar for the pc at hdd adapter so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors close to ac power source is this ok i have a new monitor which i set up approximately feet from where the ac power enters my house at my fuse box is this safe for the monitor or will can the emf emitted by the ac current eventually affect my monitor if so how and is the damage permanent or would degaussing fix it thanks tom catalino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	datasave videostreamer a few weeks ago i saw an ad in the german magazine c t about a so called videostreamer this is an interface between a pc s parallel port and any video recorder for backing up your data on a videotape the company datasave claims that it can store up to gb on a minutes tape it costs dm about usd i think my question is does anybody use this product if yes how many bytes really fit on a minutes tape gb sounds quite unbelievable to me however any comments on the interface are appreciated please mail your replies directly to me i will sum up if neccesary thanks in advance gerhard gwesp cosy sbg ac at
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr elroy uh edu st r elroy uh edu b j guillot writes in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke well i tried this method based on responses from several people either i am a klutz probable or they have changed the connector i ended up having to destroy the connector put heat shrink tubing on the individual pins and then plug them into the sb connector in the correct order it works great this way so this turned out just fine it certainly sounded easy based on other people s experiences but my attempts did not go too well john john manning opinions expressed are my own j manning csc enet dec com i do not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	considering the orchid vlb seeking comments i am very serious about the purchase of a dx that uses the orchid vlb mother board the system also has the vlb ide and fahrenheit video board in it i haven t seen or heard any bad comments about this board does anyone out there have any comments good or bad about this board i am considering this board primarily because of orchid s reputation and long standing in the field thanks for any and all comments bob jones
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help promplem with panasonic kx printer folks i have a panasonic kx just inherited with no documentation which is giving me a problem that i cant resolve the paper out light refuses to go out it starts to blink when ever i turn the power on which beeps it does allow be to go on line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but is does not blink please do not give any references to manuals as i dont have any thanking you all very much in advance sincerely dharmesh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit dma failure system halted i have a mhz isa board with kbyte cache and megs ram i just bought the new soundblaster and tried to install the card the sb uses bit dma channel i could select between channel to it is the first card i ever installed that uses bit dma transfer after i tested the card the first time the computer crashed and i got a parity error system halted this happens either from dos as also from windows so it seems that my bit dma channels are not working properly they are there because testsb exe recocnize them and tests them ok until first access well does anybody know a solution for this problem or a special test program for dma problems i eliminated the problem temporaly by using only bit dma channel but it makes the system slow thanks for your help yours markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re parity error system halted anyone have any ideas you unfortunately failed to mention if the error occurs with the parity error checking enabled or disabled i assume you mean it gives you a parity error when it s enabled and not when it s disabled how high will the count go on the memory check at boot up before this error occurs does the system beep at all if so what s the pattern of beeps the error could be occuring in cache memory not so likely or video memory as well as the simms the fact that you have ami bios is not conclusive in determining the board manufacturer either boards are made by thousands of small taiwanese companies among others that buy the name brand chips and put them together with some simm sockets to make your board i tend to doubt your problem is with your ide controller also anyway perhaps if you answer those questions someone can help you out better mrb boltz vivaldi psu edu mrb psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can anyone give me wd x jumper settings i have a st rll hard drive and i have just got another m hard drive the controller in my machine is a wd x can a kind soul please mail me or tell me how to get jumper settings for that board i really appreciate this thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re trident cs drivers for win fast eddie felson jmarttila finabo abo fi wrote hello i ve got an old trident cs svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem to be incompatible does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers address for an ftp site would be nice thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi you can find the drivers at wuarchive wustl edu in the msdos windows sub directory i think the files are called tvgawin a zip and tvgawin b zip those are the latest drivers available as far as i know tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good hofkin software org bob hofkin writes build causes exceptions when i exit windows in fact i have had this happen on all builds after which shipped with my gateway system am i doing something wrong or is this problem commonly overlooked i have never had exceptions with build or drivers i have a gw dx scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article apr ucc su oz au montuno physics su oz au lino montuno writes this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job it first depends on what an idle cpu is doing i m not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have an loop like this loop is there anything to do yes do it goto loop no goto loop the cpu is not doing any work but it is still processing instructions it will also respond to interupts lino montuno guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micro solutions backpack not working properly hello all i have a problem with my micro solutions backpack sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt i will either start a backup or start a tape format and at about percent i get an error either saying the tape is bad or the backup format has aborted for an unknown reason if i turn everything off and wait a half hour it works fine is it because the tape backup is too warm has anyone had similar experiences thanks kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bbs i read on the bbs a while back thats a bbs may be started for gateway did a bbs start and if it did would you let me know the newsgroup name please send information by e mail my e mail address is joe west lds loral com thanks joe west
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us wyman rtsg mot com mark s wyman writes poe wharton upenn edu writes a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us yep this was on the news great news for consumers bad news for intel their stock dropped quite a chunk with the announcement scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines i used to have a lot of line noise problems with my baud modem what was sudgested to me was to put a toriod transformer on the line this is easily done by getting a large toroid core from your local electronics shop a toroid core is a ceramic metal donut and wind the telephone line in through the center of the core and out around the outside five or six times this is a easy and cheap fix that does not have the hassels of having to use sofware to fix a hardware problem talk to yah later mark mark zander sheridanc on ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios fix for diamond ss x hello world in posts i ve heard about all of the bugs in the dss x and the drivers now i hear that diamond ships bios replacements to some people that fixes a lot of problems as well as new drivers can anyone tell me how to get mine thanks in advance phil poe wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide hds volker voecking voecking informatik tu muenchen de wrote hello i have problems combining two ide hard disks seagate st a and quantum lps a as single hard disk both are working fine but connecting them together to my controller doesn t work my questions are has anybody out there ever been succesful using such hard disks together and if so what jumper settings and bios settting did he she use is it possible that my controller is the reason for my troubles the only thing i know about it is that it is an ide harddisk controller how many harddisks can such a controller control in my case only one thanks in advance volker ide drives have jumpers on them to indicate if it is a master or a slave if it is a master then a second jumper indicates if a slave is present these must be set correctly according to each drive s manufacturers spec ification the cmos setup is almost positively not the problem it is probably not the controller ide controllers all support exactly two drives maximum check those jumpers gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article c um f ux austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes in article apr ucc su oz au montuno physics su oz au lino montuno writes this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job it first depends on what an idle cpu is doing i m not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have an loop like this loop is there anything to do yes do it goto loop no goto loop the cpu is not doing any work but it is still processing instructions i ve done some asic and digital design but not any cpu design it would seem to me that on a the fpu is not being used most of the cache is not being accessed the off chip buffers drivers are idle the multiplier isn t multiplying the barrel shifters aren t shifting microcode isn t microcoding etc this means transistors aren t switching which means less power dissipated in cmos which means less heat from what i understand the pentium shuts down those sections of the cpu which aren t being used in order to cut down on heat power dennis lou but yossarian what if everyone thought that way dlou ucsd edu then i d be crazy to think any other way backbone ucsd dlou dlou ucsd bitnet steve jobs and steve wozniak went to my high school
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q scsi ide i e or more hard drives in article apr news cs brandeis edu luoma binah cc brandeis edu writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i would like to know as well since i just bought a mb seagate ide drive and want to add it to my computer a four year old gateway which currently has an mb seagate scsi drive the scsi controller is such that the docs told me not to specify it in the cmos setup i e both hard drive settings are listed as not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders i wondering if this is a problem also i remember how when i helped my cousin install his second ide drive we had to define a master slave relationship for them do i need to do something similar here i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive same here any help would be appreciated since i intend to install this drive asap i d like to know what to do and what not to do before i start thanks william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re debugging possible hardware problems i suspect the external cache but i have no real evidence for this suggestions about the cause of the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how to debug the problem turn off cache gcc and other big programs seemed to crash about of the time for me gcc gave something like program as got fatal signal and when doing anything past the complexity of elvis kermit etc i got kernel general protection faults at least once a session i disabled my cache as suggested and bingo linux is as stable as a rock it hasn t given me a core dump or kernel error yet does any one know why the cache would do something like this aldy hernandz andrews edu if programmers are paid by the hour how do you suppose the array x is initialized more programming pearls
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive bill willis willisw willisw eng clemson edu wrote in article qn iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave deleted many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis do not do a low level format on an ide drive unless you have the executable for doing so supplied by the manufacturer these are available from bbs s or mail but the mail version costs a nominal fee in addition to the master slave jumper on an ide drive there is also another jumper to indicate whether a slave is present get it right the cabling is not an issue as long as pin goes to pin goes to pin no twisting or swapping on an ide cable be sure of pin on all three components do not make assumptions guesses are ok but assumptions are bad if the cable and jumpers are correct and the cmos setup is correct then you may have to do an fdisk followed by a high level format i have never personally found this necesary but perhaps there is something gone wrong with the data on the disks probably not but i understand your predicament you will probably throw salt over your shoulders wear funny clothes and do a spooky sounding chant while dancing around the room if someone said it might help good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can i have printers on a pc lan mac isis msstate edu mubashir cheema writes trying to establish a network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata ol for letters etc is it at all possible in this world this is a fundamental aspect of novell s business they wouldn t be where they are if they didn t live up to their novell does printing slogan we run printers of varying types off our novell network i m sure there are places with hundreds rtfm on the capture command printcon pserver and the sections of the windows manual which cover network printing if you haven t bought novell s products yet rephrase your question and look for information about how well various competitors do printing rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cmos checksum error in article c uaoq v ulowell ulowell edu mcook cs ulowell edu michael cook writes recently i have been getting a cmos checksum error when i first turn on my computer it doesn t happen everytime i turn it on nor can i predict when it is going to happen i have an ami bios and all of the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct if anyone knows what can be causing this please let me know most likely reason is that your backup battery is failing this battery maintains the contents of the cmos memory when ac power is turned off and if the battery is flakey then the contents of the cmos will be lost and the checksum will be wrong along with most other of the cmos data try replacing the battery if however your pc doesn t use a battery but a large capacitor to power the cmos you should check to see if you can replace the capacitor with a more normal lithium battery if this isn t possible make sure you leave your pc on for a half hour or hour each day this will keep the capacitor charged i d opt for the battery change though it s also possible but unlikely that a rogue problem or even a virus is corrupting the cmos if your battery seems okay get a virus scanner and check out your system
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i have several questions what do i gain with this new bios how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back how do i install the new bios i d like to enjoy but need answers first thanks bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p o box la habra ca phone fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help advice guf psuvm psu edu writes i own an k clone which does all i want except run game i want to buy the game says it requires a with k game tech support says game will run on but uses a some digitized graphics which would make it run really slow it s a card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork of game fictional card players what can i do to speed up how this game would run short of an motherboard upgrade co processor accelerator card mimicking my can run at mhz any advice would be greatly appreciated a upgrade would probably cost about about or so coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much f b i b m the most feared merger gsbg uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how to setup a video projector for vga i am asked to design a video aid system for teacher to show their students how to work their way round in windows i have seen people using video projector tv set and large size monitor as thrir display for presentations i am told that there are three ways to connect to a video projector composite y c rgb can anyone explain to me the different between the three and the likely cost for each of them i would also like to know if there are telnet or kermit for windows please reply to me via e amil as well as bulletin my internet account is u sparc ncu edu tw tim chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth help hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq i believe there is a file on the diamond bboard that explains how to sort this out but with no manual i don t know the bboard number if you can please help me with as many of the following as possible a send me the diamond bbs number b e mail or post the dip switch settings for the card or fax them to me at c tell me what i m doing wrong so i can magicly get everything working any help at all would be much appreciated thanks in advance red
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work in article ut emx uucp reza magellan ae utexas edu alireza vali writes hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for this is pure bull i ve had the bit mode x and x working since the version before bld added the bit option to flexpanel try getting the drivers from ftp cica indiana edu or wuarchive the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build mine is gateway dx lb megs ram ide hd ati gup w mb installed upgrade myself bld drivers cannon lobby ti com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q scsi ide i e or more hard drives in article apr news cs brandeis edu wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i would like to know as well since i just bought a mb seagate ide drive and want to add it to my computer a four year old gateway which currently has an mb seagate scsi drive the scsi controller is such that the docs told me not to specify it in the cmos setup i e both hard drive settings are listed as not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders i wondering if this is a problem also i remember how when i helped my cousin install his second ide drive we had to define a master slave relationship for them do i need to do something similar here i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive same here any help would be appreciated since i intend to install this drive asap i d like to know what to do and what not to do before i start thanks i have been using both ide or mfm and scsi drives for years i have ide and scsi on one system and the other with ide scsi disk and scsi cdrom i currently using always in scsi card but i also have a future domain a western digital scsi card and i work with an adaptic before as i recall all these cards can support boot and floppy drive however to use with other controller ide mfm the boot drive has to be the ide or mfm you can not boot from the scsi if you have other controller in the system if you guys only have drives ide scsi just set up the ide in your cmos setup make sure you can boot from it then set up the scsi controller irq dma etc set the scsi drive to id just plug and play for all the cards i seen so far only if you have more than drives then you need driver for the third drive and so on if you have more question email me i will try to answer it good luck william
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re the p t in article r td r usenet ins cwru edu rrn po cwru edu robert r novitskey writes has anyone out there heard of any performance stats on the fabled p t i was wondering what it s performance compared to the and or pentium would be any info would be helpful an advertisement in microtimes a bay area mini computer shopper from ency systems in fremont has a graphic for the p t performance based on mips power meter v the dx raked in about the dx got about and the p t got about tom tom barrett tdbear sr engineer tom barrett amd com v amd pcd ms e ben white austin tx f don t take no take hold don t leave it to chance tasmin archer my views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem windows problems in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki a stassen lantz writes what a weekend i replaced my motherboard upgraded to dos ms windows and now experience lockups in any windows application using the modem dx dxl cpu amd ami bios i o card with serial parallel and game ports generic cheapo ide controller two hd two fd internal packard bell modem mouse the mouse is set to com irq via jumper on the i o board and parms on the mouse driver the modem is set to com irq jumpers on modem board in addition i think i have disabled the second serial port on the i o card since it is unused mouse works fine here s the deal procomm dos version works fine through the modem procomm for windows cim compuserve for windows and terminal all lockup when i try to do anything with the modem the screen just freezes no sound comes from the modem nor any messages on the screen i m getting real frustrated could the second port on the i o card still be enabled would this cause a problem i ve been through most of the software routes so i m beggining to believe that maybe this is a hardware problem anybody been through a similar experience anybody have any ideas i could try please thanks in advance n a stassen lantz i ran into the same problem when i upgraded from a modem to a modem any time i give the modem a reset command atz while in windows the computer locks up if i give the atz command in dos it will work my solution was to not give the modem the atz command thru windows in the procomm install process i told the program i have a hayes compatible modem atz was not included in the initialization string it works fine i called ms about this they didn t have a clue as to what the memory interupt conflict could be the lockup accures using any windows comm program that gives the atz command
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re g k jumbo backup problems i have been told by several people that sony data cartridges don t quite cut it in the jumbo tape drive lots of bad blocks if you re using sony tape try switching to something else like maybe m mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	plus hardcard owners help hi there i have a problem here i ve lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard can someone email me the files or let me know if plus development were they bought out by quantum has a bbs or phone i have a hardcard ii xl thanks in advance eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx math co pro vs dx in article r vs innnr lynx unm edu teague us mdc com chris teague writes which cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs a dx or a dx dx is faster for this if you are using dos pc mag reviewed a bunch of dx and a dx and the dx was faster the review was in the last month of two thanks in advance chris teague guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com w r volz writes in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i have several questions what do i gain with this new bios how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back how do i install the new bios i d like to enjoy but need answers first it fixes some problems with microprose games after leaving f iii it would in vain try to find a floppy in drive a this has been fixed i don t know what other corrections were made it comes with an image of the original in case things don t work download glb exe format a bootable floppy disk and don t put a config sys or autoexec bat run the self extracting archive so all the files explode to the disk run the file fsh exe it should be self explanatory from there dan p s i was feeling extraordinarily generous once again so i uploaded the file to ftp cica indiana too daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hardware for image processing we are doing a research about a passive dynamic vision guided vehicle completed the first theoric part we have to make the effective realization of this vehicle we need the necessary hardware for image acquisition from a videocamera and for their subsequent elaboration tipically edge detection we ask for informations about available products in the market for this purpose in real time frames second hence we need frame grabber cards and or dsp cards for sun or pc platform we are also very interested in receiving comments and suggestions from users of these cards especially about programming tools furthermore we are looking for the same kind of informations about digital controlled pan tilt devices thanks in advance best regards enrico fedrigo fedro paola dei unipd it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conflict controller grafic card i upgraded my old with dx local bus motherboard two month ago and with it i bought a controller card local bus and a grafic card diamond stealth vlb but when i try to put my new grafic card and my new controller together my system don t want to boot up it stop after controller card checking i have try to change my ami bios setup but nothing works just one thing when i disable my rom bios adress on my controller card my system do one more step checking all system and cache memory but nothing more thanks for answer chrobert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	experience buying from tc computers i m planning to buy a computer and i like tc s ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also if anyone has a company they would prefer please let me know thanks carlisle thacker miami fl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos i have a dx clone with a dtc esdi controller and toshiba mbyte drive since installing dos when i tried to re install software from or disks when i mount the second third fourth disks dos doesn t recognize that i have changed floppies if i do a dir i see the contents of the previous diskette the only way to get dos to recognize that diskettes have changed is to do a label and then to not label them buying dos has been a colossal mistake dos was stable and worked well with my equipment i have superstor pro and desqview x with qemm manifest etc so there aren t any features of dos that i am using i guess i should roll back to dos but i am wary of what will happen when i do it besides like a fool i don t have a dos bootable disk anymore i ve made the same mistakes i caution my users not to make like sheep i joined the crowd flocking to dos baaa baaad system administrator phillip culver silicon graphics inc mtn view ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	achieve multi io card jumpers needed i need the jumper settings for the achieve io card usually found in xt s it is affecting my video card and forcing the machine into col mode any help the ghoul hath spoken on a small obscure world somewhere in the middle of nowhere in particular nowhere that is that could ever be found since it is protected by a vast field of unprobability to which only six men in this galaxy have a key it was raining ii d a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted floppy controller that can handle multiple floppies i need to duplicate a bunch of floppy disks and ideally would like to be able to keep to floppies busy simultaneously on a single pc yes i know that services to do this exist i know that standard isa bus floppy controllers can only have one drive active at a time i know that some controllers are available that can handle floppies with serialized access i know that microchannel machines can keep more than one floppy active simultaneously but does anyone have a controller for an isa bus pc that can simultaneously keep to floppies going how about for an eisa machine if the limitation is a software limitation i can work around that by using os on my pc new or used i m interested orville orville r weyrich jr weyrich computer consulting certified data processor pob scottsdale az certified systems professional voice certified computer programmer internet orville weyrich com no freedom without responsibility uucp uunet weyrich orville
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm pc xt switches i have an old ibm pc xt motherboard which has two banks of dip switches eight switches per bank i need to know which switch is required to install a hard disk does anyone have any archived documentation that would help me thanks jim jimd cae prds cdx mot com jim duda email x ljd email mot com motorola codex a k a jimd cae prds cdx mot com m s c voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke regards b j guillot houston texas usa i don t believe in coffee
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	internet servers for university d our university is wanting to buy a couple of servers to provide email to students and faculty two servers are being lokked at for one to provide news service and one mail service from a proposed internet connection are there any foreseable problems with this proposed set up provided that ihets is providing an ethernet line from a cisco router into our network x dx mhz smc elite or tp eisa nic dual duplexed gb scsi with yr parts and labor on everything but the hard drives running univel unix for application servers we will run cc mail on a campus wide novell network to access these hopefully is there any other aspect i should be looking at which nic do i use is this enough disk space etc any help would be greatly appreciated christopher h meyers uunet meyers evansville edu university of evansville academic computing technician let s not and say we did
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cryix dlc cpu to all netters in my last post that concerning about the cyrix dlc cpu i said the benchmark program comptest stated there is a bug in cyrix cpus this is not true and i must apologize to the author of comptest the actual program that gives this report is f prot a virus detection and removal program the report stated there is a bug in the cx slc but not dlc sorry sorry sorry desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good build causes exceptions when i exit windows in fact i have had this happen on all builds after which shipped with my gateway system am i doing something wrong or is this problem commonly overlooked bob hofkin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ip numbers on ethernet cards hi is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card thanks in advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave c johnson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi and ide what s the difference stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway what is the difference between ide hd and scsi hd the gw dx v comes with a mb western digital ide drive i asked how much more for the seagate mb scsi drive the guy asked me why are you going with scsi i was lost for an answer i just said i know seagate better as a company from a satisfaction point of view are scsi drives faster than ide i m not buying my gw for another months or so but this is a question that has bugged me for a while tom n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	feature connector on vga cards would someone please post or email the feature connector pin assignments this is sometimes referred to as the aux video connector in some documentation thanks astrachan austlcm sps mot com paul astrachan motorola telecom astrachan austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	i ve lost com help i have a clone and an internal modem set to com it worked fine until i upgraded to dos and at the same time reloaded windows now the system can t find com msd says com is n a and three of my four comm programs say hardware not present or some similar error message procomm however finds the modem no problem and works fine curiouser and curiouser any hints help thanks mike m mwvm mitre org these are my opinions only
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article mtc fnnews fnal gov uchima fncrdh fnal gov mike uchima writes i also am having a problem with com on a g k system i have a gateway k dx system with the ati ultrapro video card identical to the system mentioned in the original posting except mhz instead of for some reason the system refuses to recognize com for example if i configure the on board motherboard com ports for com com everything is fine if i configure them for com com com works ok but com is not recoznized the diagnostics shipped with the system the msd utility windows all act as if the port isn t there it s not an irq conflict because i can swap the irqs for com and com and com still works and com still doesn t i actually noticed this problem when trying to install additional ports a boca high speed s p card the behavior with the boca card was exactly the same e g it would work as com com or com but not as com this has the smell of an i o port conflict but i can t imagine with what there are no other expansion cards installed in the machine other than the video card and gateway would have to be pretty stupid to have the on board com conflict with something else on the motherboard has anybody else had this problem i ran into this about six months ago my system is a gw dx v megs ram meg ati gup vlb it seems the problem is that the ati graphics ultra pro card consumes the com port for some reason so only com are available i believe this is documented somewhere in the system manuals but i can t recall where dave peterschmidt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card does anybody have a data sheet handly for the above mentioned card i bought one sans manual at a local surplus shop and want to try it out with the crywyr packet driver suite the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but i don t grok the settings of w w also labelled a through a could somebody tell me which settings of these four jumpers correspond to what i o addresses is there anything else about this card i should know before i plug play dave platt voice domain dplatt ntg com uucp netcomsv ntg dplatt usnail new technologies group inc embarcardero way palo alto ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cmos checksum error recently i have been getting a cmos checksum error when i first turn on my computer it doesn t happen everytime i turn it on nor can i predict when it is going to happen i have an ami bios and all of the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct if anyone knows what can be causing this please let me know thank you mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	my power supply fan makes an awful din what to do hi all of late my computer s power supply fan has begun to make a lot of noise what can i do about this if i had to get new power supply or get a new case where is a good place selling good tower cases and ps i know there are a couple dozen listed in the computer shopper but i was looking for personal experiences and recommendations divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx math co pro vs dx which cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs a dx or a dx thanks in advance chris teague
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem problem no dialtone i have a dx isa pc compatible insight with an infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when i first put the modem in i pulled a phone out of the jack in another room and ran a phone line extension to my surge protector and then my computer the modem worked fine then i split the line from the jack in the other room ran the line into my room into the surge protector and up to my computer then i got a regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack in the modem now when i try to use the modem quicklinkii says no dialtone the phone plugged into the back of the computer works fine i tried unplugging the phone but still no dice is it that the phone line was split too many times i don t understand how this could be a problem since the phone worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need spec of miniscribe hard drive i need info regarding a miniscribe half height drive there is a sticker on it with the following model hda pcba unique tda f aa ab aa but the sticker on the biggest chip on the mfm interface has this model pcba tda fxx ab what is the spec of the drive of cyl heads etc how fast is this drive can i use it as a rll drive i also have a scsi interface that seems to match all the connectors for this drive it has this description model pcba e p tda axx a a can i replace the mfm interface by the scsi interface and use the drive as a scsi drive what would the drive size be there is a set of jumpers on the scsi interface with sel besides it what is the use of it could someone also send me specs for seagate st full height drive my e mail is zhang whbws ms ornl gov thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used help me please at ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin p s i m intending to use the cable for pc to pc transfers via lap link or telix ideas and info gladly accepted i do not have specific knowledge of lap link or telix but my recommendation for any package is to follow each one s instructions for making the null modem cable the reason is that each one may be different since there isn t really a standard for pc to pc communications the following is a tutorial i wrote up that will give you an understanding about rs and null modems but you should still check your software i will eplain a couple of details of rs rs is a commumications specification for communicating between a computer and a modem actually it can be between any end system and any communications hardware the terminology used is data terminal equipment dte and data communications equipment dce rs spells out the voltage levels the connector type the pinouts and the signal protocols the connector is a db but ibm has set an alternative standard of db the primary signals are transmit data td recieve data rd and signal ground sg there are other signals that provide control between the dte and the dce for example the dte announces that it is powered up and ready to participate in communications via the data terminal ready dtr signal dtr is an output on the dte and an input on the dce similarly the dce announces that it is ready to participate in communications via the data set ready dsr signal dsr is an input on the dte and an output on the dce ok that s five signals there are only four more of interest the request to send rts signal is an output from the dte and an input to the dce that is used to ask the dce permission to send data if the dce agrees it sends an ok via the clear to send cts signal for completeness the cts is an input to the dte and an output from the dce the other two signals of interest are ring indicator ri and data carrier detect dcd these are both inputs to the dte and outputs from the dce ri is just what you would expect a signal to the dte saying that someone is attempting to establish a connection to the dce this is rather specific to the modem telephone line setup dcd is a way for the dce to announce that the connection has been established i e the local dce is talking to some remote dce there that s it oh there are many other rs signals defined but they are obsolete i have explained the nine signals that are on a pc the pinouts are as follows name db db sg td rd dtr dsr dcd rts cts ri now to address your problem at hand when you connect a pc to a pc a dte to a dte there is no dce pair in the middle and therefore the rs signal definitions don t work out quite right there is no dce to assert the cts dsr dcd or ri so the common thing to do is to not use these signals at all and also forget about the dtr and rts outputs as well if this is done you simply make a null modem a cable that passes through sg and crosses td and rd i e pin of one end connects to pin at the other end etc the problem with this solution is that a pc that wants to send data has no way of knowing if the other pc is ready it would have to just send the data and hope it got through therefore a better null modem would include the dtr dsr pair crossed a particular point a confusion is in the software area just because you run the wires does not mean that the soft ware will use them if you are using the built in bios to control the serial port then the bios dictates what wires you need and how they are to be used but if you have a comm package such as brooklyn bridge or lap link or telix then those packages dictate the cabling requirements the only thing you can guess reliably is the sg td and rd the dtr dsr is also fairly common there is one more issue that needs to be addressed here and that is flow control in the rs scenerio the dce s are responsible for flow control and it is assumed that the dce couldn t possible over run the dte by this i mean that as long as the dte has its dtr line asserted the dce will send data without requesting permission first note the contrast to the other direction of data flow the dte must request permission by asserting the rts line and it must wait for the cts signal before it can send and now in the dte to dte scenerio the question is do you need flow control the answser is usually but how for non binary communications one common technique is xon xoff which is implemented in software no wires are dedicated to flow control the td and rd carry the xon and xoff commands this type of flow control can be used in addition to hardware flow control but the problem is that you can t send binary data because your data might include the xon or xoff codes and cause erroneous conrol signals a work around is to have the software insert and extract escape codes but the hardware flow control is prefered the problem with hard ware flow control is that there is no standard there are lots of ways to do it and i bet they have all been tried one cornerstone of all the methods is to use the rts cts for one direction but beyond that anything is fair game again you must look to you comm package for cabling requirements but i bet you ll find that one cable if wired properly could work with all of the packages as long as they are of the same vintage by the way i am familiar with one package that uses rts cts and dtr dsr for flow control the rts is request to send and the dtr is ready to recieve the cts is the clear to send and the dsr is the request to recieve this does not mean a differnt cable it is just software the clincher to all of this cabling stuff is that it is common to have the uart directly controlled by the cts signal which means that the cts must be present even if you are not support ing it in software for these cases you will find cables that short the rts to the cts at the same end or perhaps the dtr to the cts other possible shorting might be done just because the software expects certain signals that you don t have or don t feel like providing because it would mean additional wires specifically i am talking about the dsr shorting the dtr to the dsr is not a good idea in general but you may find cables like this it is a bad idea because it defeats the whole purpose one more gotcha signal is the dcd some software including the pc bios expects to see the dcd before it will work this signal sometimes gets shorted with the dtr but my favorite null modem has the rts and cts shorted at each end but the rts is also connected through to the other end and connected to dcd and of course the dtr dsr are crossed as are the td rd and of course the sg must pass through this null modem works with most software the flow control if any can use the rts dcd with the dtr dsr if your comm package does not specify the cable required for pc to pc connection then i suggest you use this one td rd rd td dtr dsr dsr dtr dcd rts rts dcd cts cts gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server a and s on wayne mcdougall had the unmitigated gall to say this wm the software is netware level ii and i can see burnt on to the wm screen sft netware level ii v a however to configure netware wm for level ii mirrored or duplexed disks requires a second disk yes yes mirroring requires a controller that is capable of writing to two disks at once duplexing which is the preferred way of mirroring uses two controller cards and two disk drives duplexing requires a special card and two identical disk drives in most cases duplexing can sometimes be pulled off with slightly different drives controllers as long as the sizes are the same wm so how is the novell server a normally configured the configuration is completely up to the user wm can i install sft netware level ii v a as level i or is this wm what is causing my serialization error if you only have one disk then you can t use level ii sft however the osobj disk has a serial number on it and if this disk is for a different version of netware then you would get a serialization error make sure that this disk actually belongs to the rest of the set of floppies in the netware installation set wm is the novell server a normally equipped with two hard drives wm one of which has failed two drives could be either two netware volumes at sft i or one volume mirrored using sft ii impossible to tell with the network being down wm would this mean i can not install the network software because it wm will not be serialized for this hardware with a failed drive try disconnecting the failed drive using a standard disk controller and installing the software as one volume under sft i if the software will install and if the one disk is functional then it should be able to work in this configuration wm what else can cause a serialization error see the comment concerning the serial number on the osobj installation floppy wm what happens if the keycard fails what is the keycard attached to line noise provided by south central bell blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck on john bongiovanni had the unmitigated gall to say this suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos jb did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like jb a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock jb hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance jb automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag jb has been set and then then advances the date when a program uses a dos call to get the system it resets the flag that tells the bios that it has passed midnight it then uses this flag to increment the date if the menu does a call to the system to get the time before midnight before the bios sees the midnight flag then bios will not know that the day passed and the date will not get updated i might have some dos s and bios s mixed up darned cold messed up my brains but this has been a well documented problem for years i don t know of a workaround hope this helps two most common elements in the universe hydrogen stupidity blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link to imagewriter on larry henson had the unmitigated gall to say this lh hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone lh i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how lh can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but lh it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx lpt ports don t recognize baud parity etc settings you might be tring to connect a serial printer to a parallel port try this attach the serial port of the printer to a serial port on the pc use the mode command to set the com port settings try c mode com n to set the port parameters then use the mode command to redirect the printer port lpt like this c mode lpt com this should work good luck time flies like an arrow fruit flies like a banana blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck on michael shapiro had the unmitigated gall to say this ms the dos system date has a twenty four hour clock and a rollover bit ms when the system crosses midnight the rollover bit is turned on ms subsequent reads of the time add one there s no change possible ms this information was current up through dos i ve not checked to ms see whether it applies to later versions just a small tidbit with the advent of dos and later versions ms added a small feature to the dos time function if a program sets the dos clock via dos system services then dos will set the bios clock to the same value this breaks the isolation between the two clocks that used to ensure that errors in the dos clock did not bleed over into the bios clock sometimes the microsoft people just don t think fact mickey mouse wears a al gore wristwatch blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how do i put an hd on an on r x getter had the unmitigated gall to say this rg this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my rg father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but rg how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you rg set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i most xt ide controllers are responsible for keeping track of the drive geometry and getting the information to the computer the controller may come with software to update its on board bios or may be designed to work with a particular drive seagate drives usually have special controllers for use on xt s and these are tailored to the drive also you cannot low level format an ide drive the low level format is stored on specal magnetic areas on the disk surface called servos not like the electronic use of the term that need a higher recording bias than the drive s recording heads can generate don t try to low level format an ide drive p e t a people for the eating of tasty animals blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can i buy a bios on ikos had the unmitigated gall to say this ik i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard ik disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like ik know where i can purchase one of these things call phoenix they can put you on line with replacement bios chips i had to do this when i upgraded a emerson to an ide drive also if you are installing an ide drive and there is a bios setting that has a total volume the same as the ide drive s volume try using it the ide drive can usually respond to a variety of different geometries as long as the setting that you use is equal to or smaller than the drive s actual size the controller will do the necessary translation automatically in most cases warning do not use a bios setting that is even one byte larger than the actual size of the drive a smaller setting will not harm the drive but you will be sorry if you go even one byte over drive damage will not result but headaches will backup not found a bort r etry p anic blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines on juan carlos leon had the unmitigated gall to say this jcl i just got a problem i have a cheapo bps modem which i use to jcl connect to my university but i get too much garbage on the screen i jcl do know it s because the noise in the line i can actually hear it jcl so my question is will an error correction protocol help to eliminate jcl this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a jcl software implemented protocol do the trick there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you are connecting to doesn t support mnp then it won t help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only id there are error correcting modems on both ends of the conncetion the added soeed is much worth the price of error correcting modems baud v bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems on the market my hard disk is full maybe i ll try this message section thing blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting fr on tim king had the unmitigated gall to say this tk accidentally discovered that if a have a floppy from one particular tk box of diskettets in the a drive when i boot up rather than getting tk the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos tk gets overwritten luckily gateway sends a print of the standard just a wild thought here but how about this there is a small boot program on every formatted diskette whether or not it contains system files it is this small program that prints the non system disk error not dos if this program tries to transfer control to a bios location that is nonstandard on the gateway then it could clear the bios i don t think that the bios is overwritten there is usually a small routine to clear the cmos area in case an invalid configuration prevents the machine from booting i think that the boot code on the fuji disks may inadvertantly call this routine just a thought don t hit me mr moderator i ll go back on topic i swear blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports on mark had the unmitigated gall to say this ma does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports ma through if there is a standard of any sort there are no standards for pc com ports above com while there are de facto standards for com they are not guarenteed to work the ps can use up to ports i think but i don t know the specs good luck i tried to contain myself but i escaped blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help info on hard drive terms hi all i ve been installing a new hard drive recently and have run into several terms that i m not sure about hard sectored soft sectored what s the difference how do i know which to use head skew cylinder skew i understand that these are related to performance how do i know what s optimal my drive is an esdi drive if that makes a difference in discussing these terms any info help is greatly appreciated david carlson ucunix san uc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more than type of controller is it possible to put more than controller in a pc by this i mean of different types ie rll and mfm if so how do you access the drives in the cmos setup do they just show up to be configured or do you have to do low level writes to the controller as an example put rll controller with drives in a machine put a mfm controller and more drives connected to it i now have drives with controllers of different types also can you put controllers of the same type into a pc and again how do you access them i was asked this question and never tried to do it so if anyone has done this and can supply me with info i would very pleased thanx in advance for any info philip r spagnolli actor telerama pgh pa us aliases actor mentor poet relfkin hobbies rpg writing computers acting reading philosophy mudding disclaimer since i can only know my own existance i can offend no one
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted hi i need some advice opinions regarding which pc would best suit my needs i want to use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot v under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can be large say k x k bits pixel using the pc as an xterminal running desqview x and sun pc nfs talking to our network of sparcstation s this is where a lot of the images data come from and is the most demanding of these tasks i ve read read read pc magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that a nice system price performance would be dx k cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor x ni com etherlink iii bit maxtor mb ide hard drive however the parts don t fit our local retailer apparently put one of these together only to discover that the ati card wouldn t run at mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group i m surprised that they even have a mhz local bus running i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks any help would be greatly appreciated i need to decide quickly so any speedy help would be appreciated even more btw we have a system now to perform these tasks it has the following configuration dx k cache isa meg ram ati graphics ultra meg ram monitor x ni smc ethercard bit maxtor mb ide hard drive we re quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets to it slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen or been uncovered there doesn t seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview x its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take a long time even when the images fit entirely in ram there s not enough memory in the system desqview x and a meg smartdrive don t leave much room for other apps photostyler will page to disk with medium size images i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only k sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain k sec on the same network going to the bit version of the smc card increases transfer rates to k sec still very slow especially when moving large images is there such a thing as a local bus ethernet card coming will it make a difference i m hoping so and leaning towards the dx choice above for that reason also are there dx s on the horizon what about dx s dx s any information is greatly appreciated ross mitchell imaging research lab rmitch irus rri uwo ca john p robarts research institute p o box perth drive office london ontario canada n a k home
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital ide hd s what are peoples opinions on the above make of hard drives i seem to have found a really good bargain on a meg drive but i thought i d check if anyone had any comments to say on this make also i m a bit of a novice with pc s but an experienced computer user when connecting and fitting this drive into one of my spare bays what extras will i need a cable for starters i guess but what about brackets etc also i think i might have to change some jumpers on the drive and my original connar meg one i ll be attaching the second drive to a seperate ide socket on my controler card what will i need to change yet again many thanks to all that have answered me in the past and to any that answer me in the future me the artist has produced all this with my own imagination and skill oi yes you at the back stop laughing jat uk ac cov cch is mirrir skippy jase slarts pick
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can you put an isa card into an eisa slot howdy netlanders can you put an isa card into an eisa slot also can you put a bit pc card in an isa slot please e mail if possible thanks ahead of time david munoz munoz bcstec boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floppy only reads what it wrote in article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes i have a gateway with a floppy the drive only reads files it wrote to the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written by this defective floppy drive a long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like a head alignment problem how does one go about fixing it are there alignment screws that you can adjust thanks in advance for your responses peter a friend of mine had the same problem it turned out that his floppy was set up as a mb drive instead of mb might help matt crowley just remember i ll have known that deep down srg uk ac coventry cck inside you were just enough of a bastard to be worth liking
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	identify this hd actually from alistair scott afs tauon ph unimelb edu au i have come across a old external hard disk and i can t find any specs for it anywhere it is made by nec yes i tried tech support no help and it has a model number apc h c and is labelled expansion hard disk can anyone help me out with figuring out what this beast is the external connector looks like a scsi plug and the date on the drive chassis is os it s pretty old i just want to see what it is before i deep six it or rip it apart for bits thanks alistair afs tauon ph unimelb edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate hd jumper schematics i am trying to setup two seagate tech hard drives as master and slave in the same system what i need to do such is the jumper schematics of the two hard drives that i have my two seagate hd st a mb st a mb i need the jumpter setting schematics for these two harddrives thanx for you help in advance aj ajp uxa cso uiuc edu an ideal wife is the woman who has an ideal husband
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be the temp on my dx is over c measured with a k type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this is an idle temp not doing lots of bus i o not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this is in a micron computer without heatsink i recently put a heatsink fan on the chip but i might take the fan off it makes a horrible whine at times and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed in article r r jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter i know you work at sun but that s really no reason not to like fast computers i suspect a conspiracy here are you trying to drag intel through the mud at a con or something i really wish you guys would make your own computers faster instead of degrading others why don t you go straight for the top and run a pentium at mhz while you re at it seriously though why in the bleeding hell do you want a to run at mhz insert smiley where appropriate mail mail gunnarh sofus dhhalden no snail mail gunnar horrigmo gunnarh fenris dhhalden no oskleiva n norway disclaimer the above posting may seem like insignificant rubbish at first glance but if you read between the lines you will be surprised to discover the annals of burt bacharach world peace oxford advanced readers dictionary quantum physics made easy and an easy to use step by step walkthrough on how to make a time travelling device that actually works
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes wayne amtower spacecoast org writes ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi no the simple style ide controller does not use dma the cpu performs the data transfer with a string move instruction this requires that the cpu stop what it had been doing and transfer the data only the smart drive controllers be they ide or scsi can transfer via dma these controllers tend to cost the same wether they are ide or scsi to get the dma benefits ide must sacrifice it s price advantage on the controller for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that if dos had a few more brains it could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support it but dos at least won t again this has nothing to do with scsi floppies aren t on the ide bus your arguement makes no sense this isn t an ide issue the floppys have their own processor on their controller board which handles all of these commands the difference between ide and scsi is that all scsi peripherials are intelligent they each have their own controller they depend on the cpu to do fewer things for them i e ide drives needing a processor to transfer their data its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide and if you stick with dos you ll wonder why you can t multitask again i ask why can t a unix or os type os do all the miraculous things with an ide harddrive that it can with a single scsi hard drive the dettach callback mechanism alows the cpu to make requests of the devices on the scsi bus and then dettach and go about its business later when the device is done it issues a callback to say that the data has arrived or the function has completed most scsi cards will also dma the data into memory without the interupting the cpu therefore allowing it to continue working uninterupted ide supports no such concept as dettach callback can you see how this would be a win in any multitasking system david willmore willmore iastate edu death before dishonor better dead than greek david willmore ever noticed how much they look like orchids lovely
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how do i put an hd on an xt many all xt drive controllers have their own bios on board to handle low level formatting the bios also allows you to set up the drive properly of cylinders heads etc andy robinson cs psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about irq and irq i have an bit serial card with two ports each port has the option of using irq or i also have two serial ports on a multi i o card and the ports can be set to irq or from other posts i ve read i get the impression that irq on the bit card is the same as irq on the multi i o card am i right eric dittman texas instruments component test facility dittman skitzo dseg ti com disclaimer not even my opinions i found them by the side of the road
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where can i buy a bios in article ikosc t lt j r netcom com ikos netcom com ikos writes i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things so can anybody help me out on this quest pick up a copy of pc magazine or byte and look in the classifieds and small print ads in the back there are a handful of shops that specialize in bios upgrades mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how do i put an hd on an xt in article apr ultb isc rit edu rxg ultb isc rit edu r x getter writes this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i thought it might be software with the controller card but the ide card for xt s that i saw didn t come with any also how do i low level format it once it s on the computer assuming a drive which needs formatting since there is no bios support for st interface hard disks in an xt that support must come from a bios extension rom on the mfm rll hard disk controller usually the controller has a rom based low level format program a common jump address is c you can type g c from debug to see and a small table of drive geometries it knows about sometimes these are selectable using jumpers on the card sometimes you can enter them manually in the llf menu failing that you must use a third party hd prep program like speedstor disk manager or the like ide drives come formatted already and since the is controller part of the drive mechanism itself concerns about geometry are irrelevant plug it in and go to fdisk mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd rom drive help hello all i recently acquired a cd rom drive a mitsumi mfg feb hey it was free i m quite pleased with the performance but it seems to crash a lot when i use playcd exe that came with it a desqview thoughts this mainly happens when my bbs is running in the background and i load the program up if i load the program it doesn t crash and i start the disk stop the program and start the bbs its ok but otherwise i have big problems ie they can only be solved with a cold boot if anybody can mail me to help me i would be eternally grateful unfortunately my feed to this group is a little unreliable so i would appreciate if you could mail but by all means post it too because i m sure somebody else would like to know cheers wes wes garland at queen s university terminal velocity kingston kingston ontario canada fidonet usenet access free jeff lab queensu ca school v bis bps wes garland tvk gtm inc com home send email to set up full access account
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes in article hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card no vl bus ide is no faster than isa ide the ide interface is fundamentally nothing more than an extension of the isa bus and if you hook it to vl bus it ll work as fast as the slower of the two meaning isa speed it s not true ide bus uses signals which has similar name and same meaning to the counterpart of isa bus but its ide bus signal timing doesn t have to be same to isa signal timing my vl ide bus card has a set of jumpers to set its transfer rate from mb sec up to mb sec the manufacturer might have to correct these numbers as milion byte sec and milion byte sec respectively you cannot transfer data at a rate of mb sec on the isa bus i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller on the other hand i wouldn t expect it to be slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading the processor on machines in case anyone was wondering about upgrading their or class machine without spending a lot of money i looked into replacing the processor on those machines and here are the facts as i understand them if you have a ps model or model you can replace the i chip with either a cyrix dlc chip for which will increase your processing power by about for normal fuctions and not at all for math functions this chip will only run at your original clock speed ie if you have a mhz machine the cyrix dlc will run at mhz note windows does not use the math functions so it is a good upgrade if you are running windows or you can get a kingston now platform for with a mhz i sx on it which will increase your normal processing power by about if you were running at mhz originally but again it will not increase the speed of your math fuctions i think that it will continue to run at mhz even if your original processor runs at a slower speed there is also the kingston now platform for with a mhz i dx on it this might speed up your math functions as well but i am not sure if you have a ps model b or other ps machine with either an i sx or a non clock doubling i dx ie it runs at either or mhz in it then you can get an intel overdrive chip which is really an i dx chip and replace your chip with it you should get about better preformance for both normal and math functions the mhz version of the overdrive chip costs and the mhz version costs the replacement for the mhz sx chip is an espeacially good deal as it provides the math coprocessor which the sx does not have note that the speed ratings on the overdrive chips are the maximum speed at which they can run if you have a mhz sx then the overdrive chip will run at mhz ie mhz externally and mhz internally there is no reason to buy an overdrive chip which is rated at faster then your machine you will not get faster performance you should be able to buy these chips from any of the microchip merchants that advertise at the back of pc magazine or pc week you might want to shop around as prices do vary if you need a name phone number for a source for a particular chip e mail me and i will respond with a couple of sources lawrence khoo khoo husc harvard edu lawrence khoo computer consultant khoo haavelmo harvard edu econ dept harvard u
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on wd i need to find how to program the wd faast scsi controller a bit dma scsi controller for the pc isa bus can somebody point me in the direction of some low level docs on the net or will i have to get hold of the manufacturers who did actually make this anyway who will have the docs tia ps i don t ant the bios docs i want to know how to attack this sucker from the ground level ie send my own scsi commands out it from os hamish marson computer services university of waikato hamish waikato ac nz fax computers are only disclaimer remember you heard it here first human facts are stubborn but statistics are more pliable
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help second hd install i am considering adding to my system equipped with a meg maxtor hd a second maxtor meg hd i assume this will not be a problem however i remember reading somewhere that to do this you needed to reformat your original drive is this true if so why my drive is full and i really don t like the idea of to re installing everything from floppy please e mail me or post to the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader p entered at crs canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cfv comp publish cdrom hardware multimedia software c a l l f o r v o t e this is the official call for a vote on the creation of newsgroups for those engaged or interested in all areas relating to the publishing of any sort of cdrom material please repost this cfv to any newsgroup listserver or reflector that you think might have a group interested in this subject in order to reach as broad an audience as possible every vote counts so make sure you register yours if you want these groups to be created proposed groups comp publish cdrom hardware comp publish cdrom software comp publish cdrom multimedia status unmoderated voting period from the appearance of this posting to est may how to vote all votes must be emailed to manaster yu yu edu or sent as a reply to the originator of this cfv manaster yu yu edu to vote simply copy the example below and delete either the yes or the no before each group to register your vote for or against the creation of that group a line containing yes no as in the example below will be considered an abstention with respect to that particular group note that each group will have its own separate vote count and that you may split your vote for the groups or abstain as you will please provide your name and e mail address as shown in the example below email your vote following this example subject re vote on comp publish cdrom i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom software i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom hardware i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom multimedia last name first name e mail address voting rules only one vote per user two different people cannot vote under the same user name any votes which are received before or after the voting period will be discarded anyone who wants to change their previous vote may do so by voting again they must indicate that they have previously voted and are changing their mind in a footnote a changed vote will discard your previous vote email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for against newsgroup creation as proposed conditional votes will not be accepted only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted mailed replies to this posting will be discarded in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual only the first vote will be counted unless it was changed as above no information will be supplied as to how people are voting until the final acknowledgment is made at the end at which time the full vote will be made public ambiguous votes ambiguous votes those who do not follow the specified format or do not make clear the voter s intent will where possible be returned to their senders for clarification ambiguous votes which cannot be returned to their senders or for which no clarification is provided will be identified in the final vote tally every vote counts feel free to flood my mail rationale the rationale for this proposal is a need for those interested or involved in the publishing of cdrom materials to have a forum for the discussion relating to their needs at the moment the main fora for such discussion are in alt cd rom and comp multimedia neither of which have publishing as their focus some lists serve the general cdrom community with focuses on library government and network usage and until several weeks ago none were devoted to publishing cdpub has just been setup in any case a list is not and ought not be a replacement for regular usenet newsgroups the reason for the division into three groups is a natural partition of interest between the hardware and software topics and between the two main focal points of software i e fulltext and multimedia publishing topics such as cdrom xa cdi cd r photo cd and other related formats would be included as well topics related to cdrom publishing that are neither clearly hardware or software related such as books copyright issues and other legal matters packaging distribution could be included in the purvue of comp publish cdrom software as would any other nonhardware or multimedia topic that relates in some way to cdrom publishing in any format and is appropriate to the internet the main focus of comp publish cdrom software would be topics such as index and retrieval software premastering software cdrom simulation software hypertext sgml scanning and imaging software data capture software data clean up compression encryption etc as relates to publishing cdroms the main focus of comp publish cdrom multimedia would be software that aids in the multimedia authoring and publishing process audio and video the main focus of comp publish cdrom hardware would be hardware that relates to cdrom publishing as well as hardware for data capture such as all sorts of scanners and data capture hardware as well as information that publishers need to know about the hardware that the intended enduser will utilize the hardware that will eventually play the published cdrom including networks for cdrom notes these groups are not to be used for topics such as reviews or questions relating to already published cdroms or reviews or questions relating to general purpose cdrom drives and the like requests for help in installing a cdrom drive and other general topics should be directed to other fora questions about cdroms mounted on lans should be directed to bit listserv cdromlan charter proposed charter comp publish cdrom software the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom software will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them index and retrieval software authoring software scanning and imaging software ocr and ocr cleanup hypertext sgml premastering and simulation cdrom software copyright and legal issues related to publishing cdroms other nonhardware topics related to cdrom publishing proposed charter comp publish cdrom hardware the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom hardware will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them cd r equipment data capture hardware scanners video and audio capture hardware networking hardware midi hardware photo cd hardware publishing systems cdi and dvi hardware compression and encryption hardware keyboarding other hardware publishing topics proposed charter comp publish cdrom multimedia the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom multimedia will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them multimedia authoring software imaging software audio and midi software color control software video editing software audio editing software multimedia utilities useful for publishers integration of text image audio and video compression and encryption of multimedia multimedia copyright and related legal issues multimedia databases and hypertext other multimedia publishing topics henry manaster email manaster yu yu edu brooklyn ny disclaimer the above is not necessarily my opinion nor that of anyone else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help dip switch settings on an ast hot shot could someone please tell me what the dip switches on the back of the ast hot shot accellerator card do i recently acquired the card and did not get any docs any information will be appreciated rob robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any body have more than meg ram on a leading edge i have a leading edge sx with megs of ram that are in the forms of meg simms each simm has two chips on it they are manufactured by samsung and are ns a salesman told me that the leading edge cpc motherboard has the extra parity bit built in and reccomemnded i use mac simms i tried using megs pulled out of a mac si these are chip simms but i got too many windows protection faults and parity errors i guess i should use the same simms as the ones i have but i can t find any most of the places i have called carry only or chip simms so if anybody knows where i can get memory that is good with my computer or if you have any suggestions at all please let me know any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wincim at baud i ve had similar problems downloading using wincim i discovered that if i disabled data compression on my modem it works fine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with et hicolor modes can any body tell me where the most significant bit of the total horizontal width hides out on the tseng labs et with a bit dac i am trying to use the x x m mode under unix so i cant just call int h i have a program which dumps the contents of the card registers under dos but i am not sure i trust it for the extended registers of the et anyway the problem is that in this mode the horizontal total register d h index is apparently set to x but d h index the displayed clocks is set to xef so x is nonsense a resonable value would be x so is there a high bit and if so where is it also how does one set the video dot clock to the appropriate frequency and what would be an appropriate frequency the documentation isn t really very clear tseng txt from vgadoc zip from some ftp site about this my card is a megavga mb card seems to have a tseng labs bios ver i think works nicely under dos and very well under unix linux in all the non hicolor modes great for running x windows in up to x x ni if your monitor will take it only just in my case please email the answer as i can t read news very often thanks very much david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	programming the beeper i need to be able to cause a beep but without using any interrupt routines as i cannot use the bios i believe that the pic might have something to do with it but i m having troubles deciphering the information i have on it to figure out how to program it i m programming all of this in turbo c if that makes any diference at all please can anyone help me thanks nicola
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now i have a fg and think it is great i haven t seen the nanao s so i can t compare but the fg image is very sharp and the color contrast is extremely good i ve used other trinitron monitors e g a sun ss color monitors which is a trinitron and think the fg is at least as good perhaps brighter and has none of these silly horizontal lines running across btw i could be wrong but i thought that the fge is slower as well as missing accucolor it may not be able to handle x the way the fg can cheers dan ts o div neuroscience baylor college of medicine baylor plaza s houston tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	speed led s for a gateway motherboard hi i recently got a tower case for my gateway file server mostly because we needed the extra drive bays and better power supply this case has led s for the processor speed i e is there a place to plug this in on the motherboard if not is there anyway to hack something to make it work tia eric eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren t my rules come to think of it i don t have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re archive controler frederic pierre fred sobel u strasbg fr wrote hello i m looking for a supplier of archive tape drive controlers european preferred who could provide me an sc s card for my old l drive who knows where i could find such a beast i thank you in advance for your attention i m similarly looking for controllers for archive c even the number to contact archive or whatever the company is called would help gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines on apr gmt chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you are connecting to doesn t support mnp then it won t help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only id there are error correcting modems on both ends of the conncetion the added soeed is much worth the price of error correcting modems baud v bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems on the market what is mtez a dealer a repository any details penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans n p just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the n p cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a n p fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read n p somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc n p slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot n p chip goes off spec sooner n p has anyone out there got a cpu fan i work for a small pc oem we offer both a personal and professional system line our pro machines always have a cpu cooling fan on dx and dx units n p is there more than type there are several manufacturers n p do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan sometimes depends on the specific fan model n p do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines all the ones i ve seen do many come with a y connector so you don t have to have a spare connector n p anyone had any trouble with cpu fans none n p does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money touch a dx chip after its been running a few minutes you won t feel the fan is a waste n p how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese depends on the model many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money n p roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without an advert i ve read claims f vs f tough to tell i do know the chip sheds a lot of heat slmr a murphy was an optimist is your data backed up via dlgqwk v a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re laplink serial parallel cables serial cables there are only three output signals td dtr and rts there are five inputs signals rd dsr dcd cts and ri there are many differnt null modem requiremts as dictated by the software the ibm bios requires asserts dtr and rts and then waits for both dsr and cts before sending when a bios recieve call is made it asserts dtr and waits for dsr to become true times out after a while and returns with an error if dsr never becomes true it requires cts to be true for sending and recieving most communications packages bypass this and replace it with their own protocol the key is that each comm package could very well have different requirements my favorite cable works in many cases short rts to cts at each end but also run rts through to dcd at the opposite end td runs through to rd and dtr runs through to dsr from both dte s and of course sg goes through to sg i have never had trouble with this null modem even though i have used it with a comm package that was expecting rts to go to cts instead of dcd the advantage of this cable is that it also works with the ibm bios gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it works very well under os so i know that the drive is not faulty in my config sys i have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys in my autoexec bat i have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems to find and install the drive as drive f but when i switch to that drive and try a dir i get an error message telling me the drive is not ready or something like that the cdrom is locked too and the adaptec utilities don t seem to recognize that i have a cdrom at that point the current adaptec drivers do not support the toshiba you should get the corel scsi drivers which do support it this is the method that i used and it works well corel s phone number is just a satisfied user jb jonathan bayer intelligent software products inc winthrop rd jbayer ispi com edison nj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted on thu apr gmt ross mitchell rmitch irus rri uwo ca wrote i want to use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot v under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can be large say k x k bits pixel using the pc as an xterminal running desqview x and sun pc nfs talking to our network of sparcstation s this is where a lot of the images data come from and is the most demanding of these tasks i ve read read read pc magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that a nice system price performance would be dx k cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor x ni com etherlink iii bit maxtor mb ide hard drive however the parts don t fit our local retailer apparently put one of these together only to discover that the ati card wouldn t run at mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group i m surprised that they even have a mhz local bus running i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks having in mind the size of the images my opinion is to go with vlb it has much more bandwith that eisa which in fact can be utilized by the craphics card i have not made measures so someone else may share experience on that also the dx is faster in the operations that run off internal cache slightly slower off the external and about the same off memory so my advice is the vlb we re quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets to it slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen or been uncovered there doesn t seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview x its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take a long time even when the images fit entirely in ram there s not enough memory in the system desqview x and a meg smartdrive don t leave much room for other apps photostyler will page to disk with medium size images have you tried running photostyler without the cache no need to have paging and cache both well you might argue that the paging is cached my belief no measurements is that apps left with more memory will manage it better than smartdrv exe sys i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only k sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain k sec on the same network going to the bit version of the smc card increases transfer rates to k sec still very slow especially when moving large images is there such a thing as a local bus ethernet card coming will it make a difference i m hoping so and leaning towards the dx choice above for that reason the bandwidth theoretical of isa is over mb s which is far from mb s i tried my isa ide hard drive maxtor mb and got the same results mb s regardless of the isa bus speed mhz so i guess that just the card drivers combination is lousy also are there dx s on the horizon what about dx s dx s the rumors are that dx if any is the most likely chip to come out but note that ibm is closest to the technology an it will only sell whole motherboards so you ll have to upgrade the mb any information is greatly appreciated just some view not much figures penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi on mon apr gmt wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wrote in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus as an earlier post noted through dma ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time any one time means imho a single byte xfer if i have four sources of dma requests ready the dma would service the one after the other if the bandwidth for the four together is lower than the isa dma bandwidth this will work note that the bus mastering here is the priority mechanism in the dma controller penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio thinking of buying from midwest micro of ohio think very carefully unless you are absolutely sure you won t have any problems you may want to trade elsewhere despite the fact that they answer the phone hi i m whoever and we re having a great day they weren t quite so happy when i wanted to return a modem that didn t work as i expected it to the details i ordered one of their house brand infotel df internal fax modems in reality it was a twincom lightning fax that had a paper sticker over the name given the poor reports on the net about this modem i would not have ordered it had i known this in advance it arrived on time the documentation stated that it would work and was preconfigured as com providing that com was not in use at the same time for several reasons i have a serial card configured for com com at the time i installed the modem nothing was connected to com although the modem appeared to work during every connection at or it would randomly break the connection and hang up the phone after spending some time on the phone with midwest s tech support they suggested disabling the com port this appeared to solve the disconnect problem but was an unacceptable long term solution i had to have com and available even though they both would not be in use at the same time as the modem i called back minutes prior to their closing and waited in voicemail hell listening to repeated advertisements for midwest micro products i was then promptly disconnected apparently it was quiting time and they didn t want to be bothered with callers that had been waiting on the line i called the next day and asked the customer diservice agent for an rma number she promptly switched me to a tech support rep that implied that it was my equipment at fault and that he wasn t going to give me an rma number he suggested i use some nonstandard irq settings a solution i was not happy with the modem should work as originally configured conclusion i m not sure the modem would work ok in a basic system but it clearly does not work in a multi port system like mine since my time is worth more than the aggravation or the cost of the modem i gave it to a local charitable organization with a description of my problem and ordered a practical peripherals mt from pc connection for more i have a solid external modem built by a company i know will support their users and sold by a company based on personal experience will treat me right if there is a problem i should have known better
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi and ide what s the difference in article apr ac dal ca tominatr ac dal ca writes stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway retching noises talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire are scsi drives faster than ide i m pretty sure scsi is faster along with a lot better compatability alex jhereg iastate edu up the universe no damn sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster note followups to comp dcom modems for obvious reasons in article r mb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and the sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatically dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier the courier is their top of the line product thus the higher price i ve never taken a real look at the sportster line only couriers but from what i ve gathered it s basically more of an entry level modem probably doesn t meet the same specifications that the courier does i m not sure if the sportster line is fully dsp driven like the more recent courier modems are so upgrades in the future may be an issue again take all of the above with a grain of salt i ve never evaluated the sportster so i m going by bits and pieces that i ve heard if you want a real answer post the question in comp dcom modems and you ll find people who have worked with the sportster personally though if i were going to look at the courier modems i d buy the dual standard then i d get both hst and v bis in fact this is exactly what i did i m sitting here looking at my usr ds right now and now to correct a few very incorrect statements folks if you want to get reliable answers to modem and or uart questions post them to comp dcom modems if you post in other groups you never know what you ll get in the way of an answer you may very well get a good answer or you may get something like the one below at least in cdm if someone posts complete and utter bs you ll see a flurry of folks correcting them to avoid spreading faulty info the sportster at has v error control and v bis data compression just as it does at lower speeds too there is absolutely nothing in either ccitt recommendation v or v bis that says that they can only operate on modems that are running v bis v bis of course is currently only standardized for operation on top of v in its primary mode of operation lapm but that s about as far as that goes and just in case there s some confusion on this v v bis are also supported by the courier line unless you have a really ancient one the difference with the courier is that it can run at and only in the hst mode take a second look at the original question in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external see the v bis up there the question was not about the courier hst modem or about the courier dual standard it was about the courier v bis modem the modem in question does not support hst period it therefore does not support the kb hst also not all courier hst courier dual standard modems support the kb version of hst my dual standard only supports hst at kb there are even older models that only run hst at kb this is a proprietary mode of usr and it will only connect to another of the same type unit to achieve this speed hst is usr s proprietary modulation scheme but we re not talking about hst we re talking about v bis v bis is most definitely not a proprietary modulation scheme the sportster will do asynchronous transmissions as well as synchronous the hst is one way only i do hope you didn t mean for these two sentences to be related in some way first off v and v bis are both synchronous and asynchronous this is part of the ccitt recommendation i e part of the standard it isn t a feature unique to the sportster i just looked at the appropriate chapter in the courier ds manual second hst is not one way only more correctly put it is an asymmetrical modulation scheme meaning it doesn t work at the same speed in both directions hst operates at in one direction and has a low speed back channel in the other direction the high speed channel goes in the direction of the higher data flow this is fine if you re logged on to say a bbs and type one letter and get screens of info back transfer files not using bimodem etc there is of course a penalty for turnaround time when the high speed channel needs to reverse directions v and v bis are both symmetrical meaning they do transfer the full data rate in both directions at the same time third synchronous vs asynchronous has absolutely nothing to do with symmetrical vs asymmetrical they are two completely different topics the hst s will be upgradeable to the v fast spec when it is available again more correctly put some of the courier line will be upgradeable to whatever v fast is called when it s complete if you have the large footprint courier modems like i do you re s o l there was an upgrade plan a while back to upgrade to a small footprint variety which could eventually be upgraded to support v fast but the cost of the two upgrades together pretty much put it higher than just buying a new modem later jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts in article apr ncsu edu rjbaucom eos ncsu edu ryan jeffrey baucom writes i have a couple of questions what is a uart and so on see my response in comp dcom modems all of your answers are there btw next time if you must cross post into other groups cross post instead of posting multiple copies that way only one copy of your article must be transmitted by the network and only one copy is stored on people s disks except in the case of brain damaged news software jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au shaw goh writes uwovax uwo ca wrote i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve me too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au in a pin serial loopback plug you need to connect the following pins pin to pin pin to pin pins and together pins and together pins and together pin to pin that should do it note that a lot of these pins are redundant in many implementations phil phil burg computer unit csiro division of entomology australia life a sexually transmitted disease with a mortality rate
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth help article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from redmond cs cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq shown press space for more q to quit or h for help i believe there is a file on the diamond bboard that explains how to sort this out but with no manual i don t know the bboard number if you can please help me with as many of the following as possible a send me the diamond bbs number b e mail or post the dip switch settings for the card or fax them to me at c tell me what i m doing wrong so i can magicly get everything working any help at all would be much appreciated thanks in advance red end of file press return to quit date thu apr to redmond cs cmu edu subject re diamond stealth help diamond bbs baud baud voice fax sam press return to continue gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re any info on cyrix dru chip it seems that there are a lot of questions regarding the cyrix compatible dlc and dru my info comes directly from cyrix s fast fax service and also from installing one of these chips in an ibm model the dlc is a instruction set compatible cpu which fits into a dx socket pin grid array or pga the dlc currently is available in speeds the the and the they do not have a coprocessor on board but any software query will return coproc as present i guess they emulate the coproc instructions math functions are on the dx level without the actual coprocessor the internal cache on the dlc is k cyrix literature claims a hit rate my informal tests show that the cache accounts for a performance boost when it is enabled by software overall performance boost from a dx to a dlc is about the benchmarks i used were nu si and qaplus dhrystones and whetstones the performance with the cache enabled is about on a par with my dx with k external cpu cache which is around the performance for a sx the computer runs noticebly faster and dos with dblspace is not complaining the company claims os compatibility but i didn t test it the dru is not a chip as commonly thought the dru is actually a small daughterboard slightly larger than the dx which contains the logic to manage the clock doubler this board plugs into the dx pga and the dlc or plugs into this board i guess the board doubles the frequency apparent to the cpu and insert wait states when access to the rest of the system is required there are no info available from cyrix there anyway the dru is available for dx and dx only double these clock rates and you get the mhz and the mhz dlcs if cyrix is planning to do the same thing for the dru then they need to put out the mhz dlc first i also tested a dlc motherboard along with a cyrix coprocessor with k external cache performance were about faster than the but still significantly slower than an actual intel dx imho the dlc is a great low price upgrade for people who can t afford or can t install a new motherboard it is definitely worth what i paid for it but if you need dx performance the dlc won t cut it i m not sure about the dlc but i think even if it matches the performance it won t beat it in any significant way the last time i posted info about the dlc people sent quite a bit of mail asking where i got it so here is where i got mine treasure chest peripherals they advertise in the computer shopper the dlc kit was but i liked the chip so much that i found the supplier and became a dealer if you are interested in the chip e mail me and i can fax or mail you more info i m well aware of the net s policy against commercial use so i can t post anymore info here however if there are more questions regarding the dlc itself i ll post what i can jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from scholten epg nist gov robert scholten subject re how hot should the cpu be date wed apr the temp on my dx is over c measured with a k type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this is an idle temp not doing lots of bus i o not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this is in a micron computer without heatsink i recently put a heatsink fan on the chip but i might take the fan off it makes a horrible whine at times and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov end of file press return to quit rob don t worry about the whine of the fan it will go away in about weeks of use mine did as to the vibration well that something i thought about to as i have a tower case and the mb is mounted vertically so i mounted the fan on the case so that it just blows air at the cpu and its heatsink instead work just like a charm but the realy biggy to think about is after the whine goes away on the fan if the fan should stop burn out how would you ever know this before the cpu goes up in smoke thats what you should be thinking about i have the parts together but have not had the time to assemble them as yet but you build a thermistor controlled circuit that will turn on a pesso speaker and a led when the temp goes above the normal operating range c or there abouts cheep to do if you use radio shack junk under think about that one for a while sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q pc ip mit how to get info and how to install netters i have seen some postings on pc ip from mit this package out of should be a full tcp ip fro the dos machines is there anyone out there that s using it i want to connect a dos machine to my os machine tell me what the dos machine should run sample config and autoexec would be great and where i can find a nfs client i understand that a telnet and a ftp client are part of the package i ve got the crynwr package drivers but that s it please point me to a good source of information if you cannot help me yourself regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re upgrading the processor on machines boy am i glad that i didn t start out with one of thos ps computers i started the upgrade operation out by spending for a amd dxl forex upgradable mother board from midwest micro when it was time to upgrade i bought a intel dx cpu for and was finished i still don t see why they ever made the cpu at all its to fast for both isa and lb and vesa boards some test results taken on my mb and dx cpu and some others x tal upgrades specs turbo mode tests with fan heatsink kit isa bus x tal mhz cpu mhz cpu speed mhz fpo mhz video chr ms and mhz amd mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz with all tests the dx ran ice cold not even up to room temp did it go dx dx cpu isa bus x tal mhz bus speed mhz speedstar x video card amd dxl mhz inoperative amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz chr ms gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help led connectors for motherboard i bought a dx motherboard for no documentation at all everything appears to work except i m having trouble getting a few of the led connectors working i ve looked at the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn t look anything like what is on this board does this pin arrangement look familiar to anyone out there any hints on where i can find this information speaker keylock j the board came with a jumper vertically across these two pins i can get the power keylock to work across pins reset across pins and but would prefer not to blow something up by further experimentation the date on the board itself is opti chips i would really appreciate any help and thank you in advance n a stassen lantz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth help in article r ep e usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from redmond cs cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq remainder deleted i don t have my copy of the manual with me right now but i can offer the following in the interim the card uses port addresses x e and x e which are not configurable these addresses incidentally were inadvertantly omitted from my version of the manual i believe there is a dip that controls whether or not to enable irq for cga or ega support lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vcpi memory standard i just read an article in another group that mentions this i have never heard of the vcpi memory standard can someone explain what this is thanks greg cisko
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i must say that i have been a customer of midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care of on each purchase i have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they do have some experience with setting up modems so there have been no problems in of them that i know of the fact that your time to valuable for you to spend on the modem is where you went wrong why you say because i must tell you of the yes i say ppi modems that i have had in the past that i was trying to use on my bbs they all were junk and were replace times each to ther point that i just said forget it and i wanted my money back ppi s teck even said that they didn t even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest of the modem i think it was more your fault than midwest mirco s faulkt sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway dir in article apr hpcvca cv hp com scott hpcvccl cv hp com scott linn writes while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck directory pd msdos sysutl filename type length date description clkdev zip b keep dos time in synch with battery clock chip an index of all files in the wsmr simtel army mil ms dos collection is available in two formats directory pd msdos filedocs filename type description simibm zip b comma delim list of all msdos files w descrip simlist zip b text format list of all msdos files w descrip these files are updated every days see aaaread me in that directory for details simtel allows only nine anonymous ftp logins during weekday prime time am to pm mountain time gmt but otherwise simtel files are also available by anonymous ftp from mirror sites oak oakland edu wuarchive wustl edu archive orst edu ftp uu net nic funet fi src doc ic ac uk nic switch ch archie au nctuccca edu tw by e mail through the bitnet earn file servers or by uucp from uunet s got srcs see uunet file uunet info archive help for details oak oakland edu is the primary mirror site for wsmr simtel army mil all other mirrors except wuarchive and all listserv and trickle servers get their simtel files from oak instead of simtel because it is much faster and allows more simultaneous ftp connections oak is always in sync with simtel because i maintain it in addition to my duties at simtel i run oak s mirror program whenever new files are added at simtel msdos ann tacom emh army mil is a one way moderated mailing list which is used by the internet ms dos archive managers to announce new additions to their collections the announcements posted to this mailing list are also posted to usenet newsgroup comp archives msdos announce if your host has usenet news please do not subscribe to msdos ann to add yourself to the mailing list send e mail to listserv tacom emh army mil with this command in the body of the message subscribe msdos ann to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from such as a local redistribution list then add that address to the subscribe command for example to subscribe local msdos ann subscribe local msdos ann your domain net msdos ann please do not include a signature because it may confuse the server send mail with the word help in the body of the message to get a complete list of commands and their syntax if you later change your mind and wish to unsubscribe send e mail from the same address where you were when you subscribed send to listserv tacom emh army mil with this command in the body of the message unsubscribe msdos ann this server is only for mailing lists and information files it will not send program files keith keith petersen maintainer of the ms dos archive at wsmr simtel army mil internet w sdz tacom emh army mil or w sdz vela acs oakland edu uucp uunet umich vela w sdz bitnet w sdz oakland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i ran out of time on my last reply to this string and i don t know if it was sent or not but i have never heard of anyone that had to return something in the grace peried that had a problem at all with midwest micro they may of thought that you didn t know what you were doing and suggested how to correct the problem but it sounded as you didn t give them much of a chance to correct things at all the fact that the ppi worked okay for you is because it is setup more for the no nothing user that can t understand the instruction and the commands to configure it to his her system when you find out things like the fact the the ec led that looks like you have connected to another ec modem doesn t realy say that but that it only tells you that you have ec turned on on your modem i think that these led are nothing more that just light to hype up the product just like i bet someone took home a few extra in the last year for giving the ppi modems the pc magazine award of the year not so for the stash of them that i saw on my test bench i could go on for hours at no end as to all of the problems that i found with the ppi modems but i will try to control myself i will not even go into the weeks it took ppi to credit my card back for the modems after they had received them back no i will not go into that one nor will i go into talking to the parent co co from hayes i ll just say i hope you like your new modem and maybe someone that can understand how to setup a modem will get the one that you sent back maybe a good friend of mine i hope gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed videotaped pc output i m in need of a videotaped copy of a pc pd program please let me know if you can do this marc dna ucs usl edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help eisa board configuration problems i just bought a new amiecu eisa motherboard and an adaptec a fast scsi controller i wanted to install the aha a and did as written in the amiecu manual but the cfg utility told me to get a newer version of the adaptec configuration overlay file named adp ovr because the old one is not compatible to my motherboard the adaptec driver utility is version can you help me please do so name frederic tschannen adress university of fribourg iiuf misericorde ch fribourg switzerland e mail tschannen cfruni bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on i o port h requested all during my attempts to find out how the at harddisk controller works i stumbled across i o port h the normal controller ports are in the f h f h range so what does this port do the only information i have upto now about this port is that it is a write only port and the information you have to write in it is related to the number of heads on the disks could somebody shed some light on this and give me the missing info thanks engelbert torremans at t ns nl huizen the netherlands email etorrem cbnewsj att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article c rajn cbnewsh cb att com k bnc cbnewsh cb att com john a siegel writes i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card it s the video card it s a compatible which means it uses the same i o addresses as com jh john hood cthulhu just imagine it jhood smoke marlboro vt us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products as well as some others that may fit the bill i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i m envisioning using this monitor on an amiga or amiga w a graphics board like the retina and or on a sun like the sparcstation lx basically i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic ok stuff i d like to find out how can i get ahold of nanao what are the products in their line what are the technical specs esp what scan freq and max resolutions can they handle what s list and street cost if avail from a third party and where can i get ahold of them same info for sony and hitatchi thank you very much john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise a right today
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	h e l p how can i get my com port working hello for months i ve unsuccessfully attempted to get either a rd or th serial port working on my system various systems diagnostics e g msd norton tell me it s there but anything i hook up to it can t use it i have two serial ports on the motherboard if i set my internal fax modem for com the utility programs report a com i ve checked to make sure all the irqs and addresses are correctly as listed in most manuals set am i missing something very basic where should i go from here any help even a point in the right direction would be most appreciated david besonen davidb student umass edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re unix and dos talking on qic tapes kdq quest uucp kevin d quitt writes i have a system with a scsi drive i want to get a qic tape unit to attach to it and then run software that will read and maybe even write unix tar tapes or at least just read a stream and dump it to file i ll take it from there why is this impossible it isn t use tar on the un x box and gtak zip on the dos box needs aspi driver ralf ralf g r bergs aachen university of technology ee comp eng student snail h uckeswagener str d w gummersbach fed rep of germany phone answ mach note new zip as of july st email rabe pool informatik rwth aachen de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov you can configure devices for the same irq as long as you don t use them simultaneously under dos at least both lpt and sb just sit there until you tell them to do something you can t configure a soundblaster for irq if you got an ethernet card which hits that irq a thousand times or so per second markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity lino montuno montuno physics su oz au wrote this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job lino montuno i totally agree with your friend since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception to this is for cpu s used in laptops where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again victor buttigieg e mail victor uk ac man ee comms communications research group university of manchester
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch settings for bondwell hi i recently got hold of an old obsolete pc first thing i am trying to do with it is making it work seems the switches in the back have been toggled since last it was used and i do not have the manual can anybody help me to identify this beast and mail me the prober switch settings all i know is that is is a bondwell made in most likely a can be toggled between and mhz and looks like no changes have been made any information would be appreciated terje johansen at trondheim college of engineering norway my conscience once became so bad that it died
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	always in decent i ve got an in working in a wimpy sx presently in a few months i m getting a motherboard and probably a toshiba e cdrom and a sbpro will i need special drivers for getting all this to work do they exist basically is this feasible or should i expect to be getting a newer faster scsi card thanks bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fooling check for existance of keyboard with resistor hi i have the following problem i have to use a computer for special purposes that doesn t have a monitor and keyboard connected no monitor isn t a program but no keyboard i can t disable the keyboard from bios setup in fact there is no setup i spoke to someone who said that he had fooled the bios with simply using a self made connector that connects two pins via a resistor pity pity i lost contact to the person before getting more detail so does anyone of you experts can help thanks for any hints even vague ones thomas thomas s opheys mutter beimer erich robert engel tanja opheys kirk fmi uni passau de schildknecht klausi onkel franz rehlein franz stockbauer weg pichelsteiner walze else kling iffi w passau germany ich liiiiiiebe euch echt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off setup the bios to recognize the drive as the second drive what type of drive is this i don t have the numbers for this drive instructions for drive type are included with the controller with some it may be a type no matter what the disk is with others it may be a type i had one controller that i had to tell the bios that no hard disk was installed format and create partitions on the drive do i use format or fdisk i think that ide drives can t be low level formatted is it the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work i have a reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there is no mention of fdisk ideally i would want the drive partitioned in to two partitions d and e how do i do this do not low level format a scsi unless you have the scsi low level format program first use fdisk to set the partitions then use format well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dont have harddisk type hello a friend a mine has a commodore sx and we ve put in that machine a second harddisk he now has mb but the problem is that the mb harddisk isn t supported in the bios alas there s no user type in the setup at the moment we use it as a mb type but there are getting bad blocks on the harddisk question who knows a solution to this i ve seen a small program for this once in the byte but i haven t been able to find this would speedstor or diskmanager work for this i used these programs quite a lot in the xt days but i don t have these anymore seagate used to ship diskmanager with each drive they sold help will be greatly appreciated ronald schalk r schalk uci kun nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	v a what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore ie wild hamsters or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell funny how we like to watch others sweat while our butts take root on the sofa i m don t think hamsters sweat i ll go shave one and get back to you robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	v fast what s taking so long why is it going to take a year for v fast to become a standard are there technical problems to work out or is it just bureaucratic slowdown thanks the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore ie wild hamsters or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell funny how we like to watch others sweat while our butts take root on the sofa i m don t think hamsters sweat i ll go shave one and get back to you robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	teac sd harddisk jumper setting please hi i have bought a new harddisk and want to use it with my old teac sd mb harddisk unfortunataly i do not have any documentation with this harddisk could someone please tell me how i should set the jumpers for master or slave thanks in advance robert tenback rhtenbac cs ruu nl robert tenback rhtenbac cs ruu nl utrecht the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drdos vs msdos i m using drdos with superstor for nearly years now and i m wondering if msdos could keep up with it at last is there anybody who tried out both what about this double disk had lots of problems with sstor too how much memory do you get i ve got k with emm and sstor what about the on line help really great in drdos any help appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	qic streamer software prolem i m using a qic compatible mb streamer and i really like it but now a terrible typo in an archive description drives me mad ervery time is there any software which can rename or even better delete such archives any help really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc diy and dx pcs i m interested in building my own pc can anyone recommend a uk available book on the subject and or sources for parts alternatively can anyone recommend a source for a dx mhz pc again uk available i ve just seen in computer weekly that the march price for these has fallen to sterling including os monitor keyboard delivery and vat but i can t find a single advert that would give me a system at that price many thanks for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trakker backup to those who own cms s trakkers please email me with your thoughts on your machine and specifics such as avg file access etc ben ng beng dorsai dorsai org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	windows virtual memory i ve got a dx mb and i m using windows sometimes i wondered why windows worked endlessly on my hd when i was doing nothing execpt having lunch or something like that then i turned this virtual memory swapfile off and windows became quite faster but now having less memory free and so i m still wondering why windows is reading everything from virtual memory when the convertional is sufficient any common sense explanation is really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	delayed write caches i m using norton cache which is really nice but horrible incompatible some games won t work it my streamer software won t work with it and windows doesn t like it at all but when copying or deleting lots of small files only ncache is really fast you see to write a file the fat must be changed but to write files the fat must be changed only once is there any cache program out there which is smart enough to do the same and good enough to run with all my applications any help is really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	don t buy from t c computers i m planning to buy a computer and i like tc s ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also if anyone has a company they would prefer please let me know yes they are nice ads and even better great prices but this is all on the outside the consumer sees this and orders little do they know they will get poor service very poor when i ordered a mb hard drive from tc about months ago i received it in the mail installed it and discovered it didn t work i sent it back to them and they said they d send me a refund check it took many many many phone calls and hate mail as well as threats of lawsuit to get back my in fact it took two whole months of calling and threatening every time i d call i would be put on the run around until i finally wound up on an answering machine i d leave my name and phone but i didn t even get called back once i am one pissed off t c customer and if you don t want to get ripped off or if you want decent service do not i repeat do not buy from this company the money saved is not worth the ulcers you will get pass this word around to your friends companies like this do not deserve to stay in business so let s not give them out hard earned money discount micro systems powerhouse and gateway all have given me excellent service and speed in the past i highly recommend them to anyone mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hp lj i fonts i have a friend with an original hp laserjet the nameplate does not specify a number but since the lj ii followed later one assumes that he has a lj i his problem is a tax program which requires a cpi font to print the forms properly this unit came to market in versions the plus version supported dowloadable fonts you can guess which one my friend has the plain not the plus the printer does though have a slot and he has a small selction of cartridges including a cpi but none with a cpi font can anyone suggest a source for a cartridge with a or cpi font alternatively is an upgrade to the plus version available at reasonable cost any suggestions would be welcome thanks winqwk b seattle rain festival jan to dec canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed in article r r jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter this is normally the case but make sure you get a board with a plug in oscillator as you will screw up your warranty if you start to solder the board mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help second hd install in article apr dosgate mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com writes i am considering adding to my system equipped with a meg maxtor hd a second maxtor meg hd i assume this will not be a problem however i remember reading somewhere that to do this you needed to reformat your original drive is this true if so why my drive is full and i really don t like the idea of to re installing everything from floppy please e mail me or post to the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader p entered at crs canada remote systems toronto ontario no you do not need to reformat your old hd mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wincim at baud in article slc uucp kaw slc uucp ka workman writes i ve had similar problems downloading using wincim i discovered that if i disabled data compression on my modem it works fine what string did you use to do this john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve plano tx fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on the power pc by ibm apple motorola begin repost ibm apple motorola ready to unwrap powerpc processor the wraps will come off the powerpc processor this week as motorola corp ibm and apple computer inc detail the results of their yearlong effort this first in a series of powerpc processors will be a bit processor with a bit memory interface much like intel corp s pentium with the capability of performing as many as three instructions per clock cycle according to sources familiar with the chip motorola is expected to release the chip in volume by year end in two configurations running at and mhz with performance of and specint marks respectively sources said floating point performance for the volt processors will be even better as their specfp performance will be and respectively the a scaled down version of the power chip developed by ibm for its rs workstations will also include a k single buffered cache on the chip with protocols to support motorola s bit multiprocessor bus built in the chip which is being designed initially to support the micro channel architecture is bus independent so vendors could develop powerpc based systems using a number of different architectures including isa eisa or sun microsystems inc s s bus design one source noted according to sources familiar with the development effort motorola has been extremely successful in developing the powerpc as an inexpensive architecture despite a complex design made up of more than million transistors using a micron technology initial chips are expected to be priced from to only slightly higher than intel corp s processors but could be sold profitably for less than one source said end repost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi david c cat uucp dave write are we talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller or are we talking about a scsi controller that had a chip upgrade using the same chip that is on a scsi controller board we are talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller here is a rewrite of my mac info sheet scsi section scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom normal asynchronous scsi is mhz fast synchronous scsi is mhz difference between these modes is mainly in the software drivers main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi bit devices per scsi controller asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfers bit scsi is often mistaken for a fast version of scsi see scsi for details scsi fully scsi compliant scsi mode devices per scsi controller bit scsi is implimented as a very fast scsi since it can run using scsi hardware and software drivers which limits it to devices which results in it sometimes being mistakenly consitered part of scsi bit and bit scsi require different ports electronics and scsi software drivers from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces bit scsi seems to run only in synchronous mode hence term wide and fast scsi transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit bit scsi is the biggest headache due to the fact that it is the only scsi that i know of that can pump scsi speeds through scsi devices and software controlers its main implimentation is on the mac though you do see adds for scsi at mb s maximum throughput for pcs since bit scsi does not need all the hardware including electonics and software of bit and bit scsi it is the cheepest of the scsi interfaces just pop out the scsi electornics and pop in bit scsi electronics some people consider bit where scsi really starts i used to be one of them but mb s average though put with a theoretical burst of mb s is not scsi but is bit scsi rule of thumb if it is scsin and over mb s then it is some type of scsi bit scsi can use part of scsi electronics which further reduces its cost compared to and bit scsi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article apr mfltd co uk nmp mfltd co uk nic percival x writes just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got a cpu fan is there more than type do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines anyone had any trouble with cpu fans does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without an advert i ve read claims f vs f any info appreciated nic percival well that was a piece of cake eh k micro focus newbury piece of cake master radial slice of baked ext confection coefficient of relevance to nmp mfltd co uk key to time zero dr who i own a pc fancard ii which is a slightly different beast it s a long card that plugs into an or bit slot and contains two muffin fans it requires no extra cabling i had a that was experiencing some problems due to heat the fancard made the system run cool enough so that the problem no longer appears it s supposed to keep the internal temperature in the range of degrees fahrenheit according to the maker s m s tech advertisements the us army used a bunch of these to keep their pcs running w o a c in desert storm i can t vouch for that however i am a satisfied customer and i have no other connection with the maker or the mail order house lyben hope this helps george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi and ide what s the difference jhereg iastate edu writes in article apr ac dal ca tominatr ac dal ca writes stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway retching noises talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire what cpu does this use i need the info fro my thesis are scsi drives faster than ide i m pretty sure scsi is faster along with a lot better compatability half right scsi is slower than ide mb s vs mb s maximum scsi bit has a faster burst rate than ide quarda scsi and bit are much faster than ide cyclone in june
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i m envisioning using this monitor on an amiga or amiga w a graphics board like the retina and or on a sun like the sparcstation lx basically i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic a good look i have seen it side by side with an old viewsonic a mag a nanao not the trinitron one and a sony oem which does have a trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all of them easily in terms of picture quality and i think it is far superior to the sun that i am staring at now the place asks for it i would have bought it if i had not just bought a nanao f iw a week earlier keh cheng
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts in article jester gun de michael jester gun de michael gerhards writes universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have a or uart on board those chips generate an irq for every char they received the uart has an internal byte buffer so with the right software installed it generates an irq every chars close universal asynchronous receiver transmitter is it necessary for k or higher throughput if you ran dos you don t need a because dos runs only one task at a time and the whole cpu power could be used for the transfer even if you are running dos if your cpu can t handle the speed of the interrupts you will still lose characters i have one machine with an external bps modem attached and can t drive the serial port any faster than k without losing characters michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice rob robert a schrack systems administrator ras ultb rit edu salesbook systems voice tobey village office park pittsford ny fax we wrote the book on sales force automation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted loading logitech scanman driver in high memory i am having troubleloading my logitech scanman driver latest version into high memory with the devicehigh command in msdos it gives me an invalid parameters message is it necessary to change some of the scanner driver parameters when loading high any help would be appreciated ronel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any stb powergraph users out there that know about it help i am trying to view jpg files with my sx mhz machine i have a stb powergraph graphics card with x by colors with meg ram on it i have tried cview with windows extremely slow and dvpeg dvpeg doesn t work even if i pick a lot of the modes that are supported by powergraph so it says in the manual it doesn t work when i try to view a picture it only buzzes anyone out there that can help me give me suggestions i would really appreciate it thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote jcl this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a jcl software implemented protocol do the trick there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you there s also a program called odyssey modem directory on the simtel archives that emulates mnp and others too i think but these were what i was interested in i was getting a lot of garbage when i called one number and mnp cleared it up completely on my ordinary modem fortunately the remote end had an mnp modem i tried mnp too but it seemed to lock up the computer your mileage may vary ed haymore ed byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide low level format in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu shenx helium gas uug arizona edu xiangxin shen writes in article c h yl f news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar drive is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow me to fix it thanks i am no expert on this but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives when you low level format it the information itself is gone as well i don t think you can get it back unless you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you jim well i have a different story to recount i attempted to low level format a wd mb disk about a year ago when i understood my error i contacted wd they told me that i hadn t hurt the drive and that i should just run fdisk and format s on it it was fine also i understand that western digital s bbs may have some low level formatting routines specifically available for ide drives you probably need to talk to them and get the straight scoop george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re delayed write caches andreas kuehnel idler cs tu berlin de wrote i m using norton cache which is really nice but horrible incompatible some games won t work it my streamer software won t work with it and windows doesn t like it at all but when copying or deleting lots of small files only that s surprising i haven t seen any incompatibilities with mine version the version that came with my upgrade to had some problems but symantec fixed those and i ve haven t seen anything wrong since i m not running windoze by the way ed haymore ed byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ide drive installation problems i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re v fast what s taking so long in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ry ns cc lehigh edu robert yung writes why is it going to take a year for v fast to become a standard are there technical problems to work out or is it just bureaucratic slowdown thanks don t even get hyped up they are still accepting submissions from the members for various proposals of how to implement the standard you don t seem to realize that while v bis was just an extension of v which took years to pass implement and finally sell at a reasonable price v fast requires all new technology not just faster dsp chips etc to achieve its performance wait until next spring for the final ratification and modems coming shortly after that bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university of california at berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	at t dataport k fax modem special for sale at t dataport internal k fax modem the modem is an internal at e isa bit card just a little longer than a half card it has v bis for kbps data bps fax v v bis and mnp for error correction and data compression so you can get error free links up to bps on a conventional phone line they will fall back to any speed down to bps and even disable compression and error correction if necessary in order to connect with slower and older modems it has a buffered uart for better compatibility with multi tasking operating systems windows os unix etc they use a patented technology called optical line interface oli which reduces noise generated by the modem to assure the fastest and cleanest connection possible these modems come with a lifetime warranty and free lifetime tech support and the call is free too from at t they also include the lovely and talented quicklink ii for dos and the new quicklink ii for windows communications and fax software which will let you conveniently sent faxes from any dos or windows application just by printing the windows version will send faxes of any font and can include graphics etc the dos version can fax graphics and a limited set of fonts i believe that there are or so as well as any hp laser ii resident fonts i m asking for this modem plus utah tax this is at or below the prices of any other reputable manufacturer of an equivalent modem including zoom us robotics etc and it is backed by a company that will never go away this price will include delivery if you live within miles of downtown slc i can also arrange shipping or you can stop by my home to pick it up if you re concerned about installing an internal modem let me know and we can discuss an arrangement for including installation if you re interested please let me know this is an excellent modem at an excellent price they normally list for and retail for about i installed one of these last week and it is very nice if you have questions about this at t has an info number at or you can email me and i will attemp to answer them the modem will go to the highest bidder i get within the next week thanks pete
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re atari mono and vga arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes in article apr tdb uu se m max tdb uu se max brante w have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used i wish i could help i posted a similar question about two weeks ago i got no response at all i ve asked locally at my friendly atari store i was told that it should be possible but that they had no idea how it might be done nor did they particularly care to investigate ok here s my results so far you have to define the monitor as lcd it doesn t really support analogue video input it works but isn t very linear the incoming sync pulses need inverting this is best achieved with either a cmos xor package or a transistor inverter if you don t know how to do it don t even contemplate it it ll only work in standard vga mode ok having said that i m trying to either find a circuit or ic which will act as a universal sync decoder i want somethikng which basically only detects the leading sync pulse edge and doesn t care about the polarity outputting the ve going pulses that the atari monitor requires there are reasons for doing this vga cards change their sync polarity depending which mode they re in herc emulation is while mvga is for example it means i don t have to put a toggle switch on the back of the monitor in order to be able to run it off both the atari and my ibm currently i have yes monitors sitting on my desk and i want to get that number down as much as possible being able to use the atari monitor as a paper white vga will cut things down to if i forget about atari colour i can get down to ultimately the best course of action is to get a multisync monitor but i m as pressed for cash as anyone else so it ll have to wait alan brown dogbowl dogbox acme gen nz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trying to find a pc e mail network i am desperately trying to find a pc based e mail wide area network service or the necessary network software to establish one myself while i am aware there are various bbs s and other similar services avalible like compuserve canada remote systems etc i require fairly specific criteria in approximate order of importance they are the mail files news are read written locally and batched to the network server ie no continuous on line connection note all users are remote and will use modems over conventional phone lines simple the users i have for the system have very little computer knowledge have never heard of unix and have very little interest in learning it is essential that the client software is completely pain free cheap we would prefer not paying high connect fees to an established commercial network just so we can send large files between members of the group hence in addition i would like the network server to be something small simple and inexpensive like a there are only about people in the group so it is not a huge network the capability for internet access for news mail internet style id s eg pwood math uwaterloo ca if anyone knows of a system similar to what i am describing even if it doesn t sastisfy all my criteria and i don t care where it is please please e mail me and tell me about it we are not adverse to making alterations to an existing system if necessary thanks peter wood internet id pwood math uwaterloo ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway dx v too high a price i asked for opinions yesterday on gateway machines all the e mail i received indicated that they were solid reliable machines and technical support was very good well gateway faxed me a price sheet just now it seems to be on the higher side but then again maybe not dell s price for a similar price is a whole lot more is this a decent deal please advise via email dx v dx mhz desktop case k sram cache ns mb dram ns simms expandable to mb mb and epson diskette drives mb western digital ide ms mb dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus with mb vram and bit drivers crystalscan fs color monitor phoenix bios clock calendar bit isa slots with bit vesa local bus slots parallel and serial ports intel overdrive ready upgradeable to pentium technology key anykey programmable keyboard dos windows microsoft mouse diagsoft qa plus one of excel ms word paradox project etc all for s h an nec fgx minitor upgrade would cost more please advise thanks vasudev vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl dl nec com my own and have nothing to do with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem thanks again josh smith live now make now always the most precious time reply to now will never come again picard the inner light jlredd bach udel edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ide drive installation problems in article apr sunova ssc gov qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann writes i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy did you make the other drive a master drive did you partition format
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to add another ide hd with stacker hi can somebody tell me step by step how to add a mb ide kalok hd to an existing mb ide maxtor hd with stacker and dos i know how to set the jumpers on the m to be slave and the settings for heads wpcom sectors etc i also know that i have to do some cmos settings and fdisk the problem is what letter will the cmos give the new drive if it s d what will happen when stacker creates d and swap can i tell cmos to make it e so that if i stack it i will have c d e and f i know this could be an faq or in a readme somewhere but i want to hear from somebody who ve actually done it thanks romy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	everex cubes has anybody seen empty everex s being sold i want the cube not the computer inards will it take standard at size motherboards thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article c t gs v news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes in article id xnfz vj nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks brian j schaufenbuel i don t see this as a problem with the chip set a mistake i see this as something that was designed in intentionally so it would seem that to enhance the design from to bit eisa dma would require an update to the chipset an update to the chipset may begat an update to the motherboard board design what i m saing is the motherboard manufacturer seems to be passing this off as a simple fix in my mind the fix is a updated chipset from hint along with a possible motherboard layout update this is not simple if i were you i would be cautious about this you might look into the advanced integration research air vl eisa motherboard all slots are eisa isa capable or of the slots are vl bus capable the air people confirmed this board supports real bit eisa dma i called them pentium p capable less expensive than equivalent ami or micronics vl eisa board look in computer shopper april the zenon ads show the air mother board a associate bought the air board and is pleased with it i m attempting to get the local dealer to trade out the hawk board for the air board model number of air board with dx is b ei you can call motherboard warehouse for example for a price phone s included below air motherboard warehouse gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ll format utilities in maxitor bbs what is the bbs number due to some problems with my ide drive i ll formatted the maxitor at now it started to give me some errors in some applications i was told maxitor has a utility called ide int in their bbs anyone tried it can some one tell me what that bbs number is or better can i find the file in some ftp site or perhaps someone can email it to me thanks feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re v a what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks bugs without the a would sometimes get extra characters in the fifo this renders the fifo useless only get the a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re trident cs drivers for win in apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca writes you can find the drivers at wuarchive wustl edu in the msdos windows sub directory i think the files are called tvgawin a zip and tvgawin b zip those are the latest drivers available as far as i know i downloaded these files a couple of days ago and they appeared to be incompatible with this particular card none of the svga drivers worked they re probably for the newer and series jm jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comparisons dlc amd intel i am thinking about buying a new motherboard and a cyrix dlc or mh z it will be an upgrade from a sx i was wondering if anybody has any facts they can fill me in on if anybody has one what do you think about it i will also get a cyrix math co with it i have benchmarks for the two chips a nd they look very good for the price if anybody responds please send me email because i usually don t check the mail very often but i check my reader daily thanks for your info and remember only respond if you have legitimate comp laints or praise not just to cyrix amd bash i know about what byte computer shopper pc computing and etc have said and that is why i am considering the cyrix chip thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading an xt hi all netters if i upgrade my xt with a motherboard will i be able to use the old bits and pieces like hd fd graphics card and i o card etc thanks for you info p s i am sorry if my question is on some kind of faq regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks the april issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running on both vlb and eisa x x x x eisa vlb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios timer interrupts hello i m trying to use the bios timer interrupts which occur every seconds or times a second to time people s response times in a psychology experiment and the response times are on the order of seconds is there any way i can get better precision than by counting ticks or can i make the ticks occur more frequently i m trying to do this in dos on a and it would be nice if this could also work on our old machines running dos i know i know i don t like them any more than you do but this is by no means a requirement just a possibility so basically any information on the bios tick scheme and the related inrterruots would be appreciated as well as any information on alternate ways of improving accuracy email is preferred as i m planning on posting this to a few boards and i don t read all of them thanks joe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide eric bosco ebosco us oracle com wrote first of all please edit your postings wading through lines of quoted crud which people have already read makes people much less likely to help you of course if you don t want to be helped that s your problem is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together no it s not true you can get scsi and ide to work together but there are restrictions at least with the adaptec you must boot from the ide drive there is no way to boot from the scsi drive if you have both ide and scsi drives you must disable the scsi rom bios i m not sure about this though and so you must also use some special drivers to access the scsi drive hmm i know that you have to disable something related to the scsi bios but i m not sure if it is the rom itself back in february someone asked about ide and scsi this question gets asked again and again at the end of this message i ve included an edited copy of my reply you might find it interesting darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer this message is the author s personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion or policy of hewlett packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day is it worth it to get scsi over ide will there be a noticable decrease in access time increase in xfer rate for msdos applications isa based scsi and ide controllers generally have comparable throughput you might get slightly higher throughput with a scsi disk but you ll also pay more for the disk and up in some cases you ll also pay much much more for a good scsi controller note that good scsi controllers really show their power if they re used with a good multitasking operating system like a pc unix unfortunately neither msdos nor windows is a good multitasking operating system the performance advantage of scsi controllers is mostly wasted with these which leaves the advantage of being able to connect multiple devices to the scsi bus as the only advantage however note that you can expect to pay a premium for scsi devices if you re only going to be using msdos stick with ide it s cheaper and you ll have less headaches will virtually any scsi device chain into the controller for my hard drive bernoulli box cd rom tape drive etc note the following is true for msdos windows only who knows what the future holds for windows nt and unix no generally you have to find drivers for each scsi device which probably don t exist unless you re using one of the better high performance scsi controllers these are typically bus mastering scsi controllers that cost around street prices and up and drivers that allow you to connect these controllers to popular name brand scsi devices either come with the card or can be purchased for under list price examples of such driver kits are adaptec s ez scsi kit list this works only with adaptec scsi controllers corelscsi from the same people who make coreldraw list this driver kit will supposedly work with any scsi controller card that has an aspi driver like the adaptec central point s pc tools for dos supports a number of scsi tape drives the documentation lists tape drives unfortunately it works only with adaptec controllers are there likely to be other problems incompatibilities with a scsi controller and sound cards video accelerators and similar equipment yes you will run into problems if you re using a high performance bus mastering scsi controller this doesn t sound right doesn t it it s true though with one of these controllers you ll probably have to tweak your system to get it to work with sound cards floppy controller based tape drives like the cms jumbo and windows i know i ve been to h ll and back getting my scsi controller to work with various hardware software thank god for tape backups if you want a copy of my adaptec hints and tips file send email these problems aren t really the fault of the scsi controller card the problems are really with the general hardware and software design of the pc e g no standards however adding a bus mastering scsi card is what brings these problems to the surface and makes them visible scsi holds a lot of promise but you can run into a lot of pc compatibility problems if you re planning on using only msdos windows stick with ide if you want to use windows nt or a pc unix you ll have to make some hard decisions a good scsi controller and more than one scsi hard disk will probably give you excellent performance at the possible cost of msdos compatibility i say probably because while i know this to be true with a pc unix i don t know if this really will be true of windows nt i suspect that it will but i don t know for sure
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments on gateway s nomad i am looking at getting a laptop for work and i was trying to decide between the toshibas and gateway s nomad the price is about the same but the gateway has significantly better performance mb vs mb hard drive mhz dx vs mhz sl and much cheaper accessories extra batteries modem the concern i have about gateway is the durability and reliability does anyone out there have any experience with the gateway nomad thanks denis lambert denisl col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos dos need new mouse driver i recently installed dos on a few machines and the users claim that when they use the mouse often the screen will blank and the machine will lock up there are no viruses they are not running any tsr s the mouse is a logitec button anybody got any ideas thanks mark mark cs msstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes clip clip interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone running ms dos or a derivative os obviously please take note that the following is not what exactly happens but a slightly simplified explanation technically the irq line is only a means for the device printer adapter soundblaster modem hard disk to signal the cpu that something s happening here please take note how the cpu is programmed to handle this signal is usually up to the operating system in ms dos the interrupt vector is used to store the address of the function that handles each interrupt now basic dos doesn t care whether the printer reports that it s ready to print some more stuff or not it simply ignores the interrupt when dos prints it looks at the lpt buffer if there s a character there wait a while and check again if there s not copy a new character to the lpt port since the irq is ignored as a printer interrupt it s free for use for any other adapters in this case the sb with any multitasking or otherwise advanced os this kind of printing approach just doesn t work or more precisely it wastes a lot of cpu cycles hence you can t share the irq with lpt and sb if you re running unix or os or whatnot another issue with the sb is that only the digitized sound uses interrupts when the sb plays plain music the cpu simply tells it what to play until told otherwise with digitized sound the interrupt is required to notify the cpu when the output ends and new data is needed you can however hook two or more com ports to one interrupt but use them only one at a time this is because the interrupt handling routine is same for both ports and it can see from which port the data came from this of course applies for some other devices like lpt as well remember this was greatly simplified in parts but i think gives the general picture correctly enough cheers juha liukkonen aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university of helsinki dept of lost souls trust me i know what i m doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products how can i get ahold of nanao nanao call ask for a catalog what s list and street cost if avail from a third party buy a copy of computer shopper and take a look one place with reasonable prices and good service cad warehouse in sububurban cleveland ohio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with speed my dx has mb of ns ram and a trident svga card sometimes i feel it runs very slowly especially when running windows i m planning to buy an ati graphic ultra next semester is that all i need to get the problem solved is ns ram chips too slow for my machine do faster ram chips make a big difference i use cad software on my computer as well do those up grades good enough to speed it up a lot any one experienced the difference between isa bus and vl bus both with a graphic accelerator a scsi controller may not be appropriate since i may have to replace my hard disks as well however sometimes i do have huge files on my computer does it really worth to use a scsi interface i can t spend too much on it t he any help will be appreciated thanks in advance dennis dpang uafhp uark edu p s man i hate the stupid text editor is there any way i can type my article in a dos word processor and load the file into usenet thanks in advance again
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle in addition to the facts that a the modems i had ordered two wouldn t work as documented and b the tech person had no clue as to how it should work it also turned out that c one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and d the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent is one thing but that they sell used stuff as new and won t even apologize for it is another stay away from these crooks bob wilson wilson math wisc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card in article apr ntg com dplatt ntg com dave platt writes the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but i don t grok the settings of w w also labelled a through a could somebody tell me which settings of these four jumpers correspond to what i o addresses the u b pcnic also oemed by ibm for a while is the only ethernet card i know of that doesn t use i o addresses it only has interrupts and shared memory the jumpers you see control bits in the base address of the shared memory i can t recall which is and which but that s easy to determine with debug james b vanbokkelen high st north andover ma ftp software inc voice fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio in article c usq mpr wybbs mi org ken wybbs mi org writes i m not sure the modem would work ok in a basic system but it clearly does not work in a multi port system like mine since my time is worth more than the aggravation or the cost of the modem i gave it to a local charitable organization with a description of my problem and ordered a practical peripherals mt from pc connection for more i have a solid external modem built by a company i know will support their users and sold by a company based on personal experience will treat me right if there is a problem i should have known better but but but how does buying an external modem solve the problem of wanting more than serial devices at once and since the pc only supports two why are you blaming a modem vendor for the problem i don t see how your experience could have been different with any internal modem les mikesell les chinet chi il us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pinout for standard mono vga monitor the subject line says it all thanks l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	check switches on ibm xt ok this might seem a bit odd how do check the state of dip switches on the mother board of a ibm xt without using the bios thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	error beeps on boot i am servicing a machine hp and whenever the thing starts up i get beeps on powerup does anyone know what error message that signifies i don t seem to have any problem with the machine but the lady who is using it is very concerned about it don t you just love hp computers preferr responses by e mail but i read the net so you can post it here andrew acs micro computer network technical support university of maryland baltimore county andrew hotelca tech umbc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vlb bus master problem in article rkimball athena rkimball athena qualcomm com robert kimball writes specifically i am interested in the ultrastor f vlb scsi controller before i shell out the bucks for this thing i would like to get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with it i had one and on three different motherboards it didn t work with nt and in some cases dos i sent mine back but it is my understanding that on some systems such as micronics motherboards it is necessary to shut off the internal cache on the to have it work i ve yet to hear from someone running a f on any motherboard with nt without shutting off the cache if you get one my advise it to be very sure you can return it first ralph
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari sell or trade for pc i am considering selling an atari and purchasing an ibm compa tible i need to know what kind of money or trade i can expect to get for the atari before i bother i am about to start graduate school and that means i m about to be poor there s a price list for used synthesizers on rec music makers synth but no equivalent list for computers this system is tailor made for a midi musician details follow atari st tos mb ram k floppy drive supradrive mb external scsi drive months old atari monochrome monitor generic baud external modem software all software is registered and comes with manuals passport s master tracks pro version sequencing software dr t s copyist professional scoring software first word word processor not the pd version megamax s laser c version programming language vip professional spreadsheet package low tech lotus clone partner st desk accessory with integrated calendar cardfile etc migraph s easy draw an early pre postscript release neodesk improved desktop for atari st universal iii improved file selector for atari st miscellaneous software including uniterm communications software i will consider all prices above i am also willing to trade the atari system for a quality or pc including lap tops i own some pc hardware so a complete system may not be necessary john j ladasky ii ii ladasky netcom com great composers do not borrow talking about music is like they steal john ladasky dancing about architecture quote stolen from stravinsky who o o elvis costello laurie stole it from a statement made by anderson frank zappa pablo picasso about painting who stole it from property is theft groucho a man w o charity in his heart what has he to do with music confucius
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comtrade has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when i asked about tc i got one reply describing problems returning a defective hard drive should i expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami fl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed maybe i should have been clearer i have a intel dx that i would like to use to put together a system however all the motherboards that the local vendors are now selling are running either at or mhz i guess i can cross my fingers and hope the cpu runs at that speed i think i ll take mark s advice and see if any of the boards have a socketed oscillator and head down to the local electronics store thanks for the info b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	questions on installing pas in gw k dx v i went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed it into my gateway dx v i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma and irq the default and then the pas side with dma and irq my question is how should i configure for mpu compatibility the manual and installation program recommended irq but on my machine it is configured to cascade to irq so can i still use irq or should i choose a different one right now i have the mpu emulation mode turned off actually what is this cascade to irq business a related questions to other gw or vl bus machine owners i was told that only dma are bit dmas and are bit dmas now what about bit vl bus mastering dmas which dma channel s is used by the vl bus extension to do bit dma yet another question after installing pas my links golf game will hang the machine when i select sb mode and run but works with adlib mode civilization however works fine at least so far any body knows what i might have done wrong thanks i am obviously a newbie john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans jim johnson abcd houghton mi us jim johnson writes speaking of cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money do these cpu fans also have heat sinks do you recommend using both on the same chip i e heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan if we are just talking about a cpu fan blowing directly on the cpu chip i can t see how heat sink grease is necessary or even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	has anyone heard of syntrex a friend recently bought a used the brand is syntrex it didn t come with any documentation and i am trying to find some information about the computer so the question is has anyone heard of it if you know anything about these please drop me a note thank you diana sartorius dsartori u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx vs dx would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem problem no dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes i have a dx isa pc compatible insight with an infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when i first put the modem in i pulled a phone out of the jack in another room and ran a phone line extension to my surge protector and then my computer the modem worked fine then i split the line from the jack in the other room ran the line into my room into the surge protector and up to my computer then i got a regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack in the modem now when i try to use the modem quicklinkii says no dialtone the phone plugged into the back of the computer works fine i tried unplugging the phone but still no dice is it that the phone line was split too many times i don t understand how this could be a problem since the phone worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do try swapping the phone cables in the back of the modem the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel of the american prison system president bill clinton on living in the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator in the washington d c area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments on texel cd rom drive sought anyone have any recommendations warnings about the texel cd rom drive or about any of its competitors i m looking for a cd rom drive for connection to a pas scsi port hal r brand llnl brand addvax llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how well do the voicemail modems work hi i ve seen alot of ads for voicemail fax data modems this would be way cool if they work well i don t want to have someone call me and get the connecting sound of a fax machine do they work very well has anyone out there played with one if so please tell me what brand and other info like that thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive a couple of points in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money i have an adaptec b and am very happy with it connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off not so i have both ide and an adaptec b in the same box and can use both disks at the same time eg ide to scsi disk copy well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem well one statement and one correction guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together no i m running both at home ok to the cumpter is turned off right now but i did boot bsd from an ide drive most of the system is on a scsi drive i m using an adaptec b and a no name el cheapo ide card well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hercules vlb a couple of months ago i tried out a hercules graphite card a pretty nice board fairly fast and seemed quite compatible even seemed to handle the svga modes i have whined about here on occasion at the time i was just buying a vlb system so after checking out the card i sent it back i wanted a vlb card and purchased a fahrenheit vlb card this card is fairly fast will do hz refresh at x but is not compatible with my cd roms the svga thing i think i have merely conjectured that is the cause of an old graphics board being able to run in a higher resolution with those programs than the modern boards i have tried i have not gotten a straight answer out of anybody the monitor i am using it with is a magnavox which also tops out at x x hz so its really a pretty good match but that is for my wife i just purchased a viewsonic for myself and am looking for a graphics card to drive it i want hz refresh and would really like it to handle my cd roms i tried the orchid p which did neither of those things though robert at wietek did say that the hz was possible if i modifed the driver data base so my thoughts go back to hercules they were supposed to be coming out with a vlb version of the graphite around the end of march i have heard precisely zero about it since then does anyone know if the card was actually released and what capabilities and price it has any info would be most appreciated geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vlb bus master problem rbrown spchp bbn com ralph brown writes i ve yet to hear from someone running a f on any motherboard with nt without shutting off the cache consider it heard ami enterprise iii eisa vlb w ultrastor f edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	anybody heard of an asus brand dx motherboard hi all has anyone heard of this board it s a dx if so does anyone know if it will work with bsd or linux a local pc vendor has this he says it s a u s brand please e mail if possible thanks david munoz munoz bcstec ca boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding a second ide drive i just bought a western digital caviar mb ide drive and i want to add it to my system which already has a wd ide drive the controller says it supports hard drives but when i plug in the cables do the bios setup and try to start the system it pauses and then i get an invalid drive d error message the system boots but i cannot access the new hard drive there are jumpers on each drive that must be set for both to work the c drivemust be set to be the master drive and d must be set to be the slave drive the actual settings should be in info with the drives or is available from western digital
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i also noticed this was out the readme that comes with it doesn t tell you squat except to warn you that bad things may happen anyone have any idea what these can do for me in terms of say performance tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos adding a rd drive does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found argh ideas anyone thanks in advance mike migkiller figueroa sun microsystems computer corporation e mail maf corp sun com work n x x x x sierra hotel and check six f falcon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article kehchengc w x f o netcom com kehcheng netcom com keh cheng chu writes in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic a good look i have seen it side by side with an old viewsonic a mag a nanao not the trinitron one and a sony oem which does have a trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all of them easily in terms of picture quality and i think it is far superior to the sun that i am staring at now the place asks for it i would have bought it if i had not just bought a nanao f iw a week earlier keh cheng what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cardinal vl bus graphics card does anyone have any experience or is familiar with the cardinal p vl bus graphics card would appreciate knowing what you think of its capabilities thanks keith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm colordisplay for pc i have one of these monitors it appears to function ok but is unhookable to anything standard cga ega vga it will plug in but gives fuzzy diagonal noise i also have a graphics board that is apparently a graphic board double card with bit bus connectors and a pin female connector with a picture of monitor i tried plugging these two into a standard at to no avail how can one connect these to the monitor seems to be of relatively high quality so i m curious any special drivers and or setup needed i can t locate any jumpers on the card
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway zeos compare i am think of buying a new computer through the mail order i am looking at the gateway v systen and the zeos s system which is better in terms of value price ungrade service because i am in canada i wonder can i have the same level of service as in the states thank you for any advice thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	magitronic bbs hm i ve found the dtk customer support bbs anyone know if magitronic run one too hands up all those that have possibly useful cards made by either manufacturer and no docs or drivers g please email me directly if you happen to have a number lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et linear mode hi i have heard about a linear mode for the et in which the mb video memory in linearly accesibly instead of the usual k pages does anyone know more about this how can i enable it and to what address is the video memory mapped to a mostert stellenbosch rsa mostert cs sun ac za
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade daniel m coleman dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu wrote gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i blindly installed it and i haven t had any problems or noticed any differences yet note that i did not backup my previous bios you can with the tool that they ship rob i live on the edge laddish robert laddish at t hewlett hp packard hp santa rosa ca telnet mail stop usr robl sr hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article r hvd gazette bcm tmc edu tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu dan ts o writes in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now i have a fg and think it is great i haven t seen the nanao s so i can t compare but the fg image is very sharp and the color contrast is extremely good i ve used other trinitron monitors e g a sun ss color monitors which is a trinitron and think the fg is at least as good perhaps brighter and has none of these silly horizontal lines running across btw i could be wrong but i thought that the fge is slower as well as missing accucolor it may not be able to handle x the way the fg can i believe pc mag said fge can t do x cheers dan ts o div neuroscience baylor college of medicine baylor plaza s houston tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu newsgrazer a nextstep tm news reader posting m uqr p n ve o g t fq c fuo r b w r r wt ua m f l p eqm g c r i r qt dv qt y c r p x m s t qt x u s p x c r qt v x c p x p m qf qb qi qu g r b a g i vqe pq c r d d a m f t n f m g m rye s t c h qo fye c f c yt n m u a x g rd w i s ep b b a g i vqe q w n m w x s fuc vel yc x v r d w n g ql f a a m te m r m w fet z h xn bx d r h w f w m l v a qa fqe h m n d ef f r yc m q cx fyo u tq b i b yy x r n v s r p m yi vys r vt o qe h r h e s cx g h m o qd e p e vea d i f e d v n t r g m vye i vat f r h ym e m r a f ql o f ee m b a f u a e l g o n w i ep b cx d v a m r a f ai fl w e n d v xg s n h m ya r s o e cx v n w v m r p g t h u d ua m v f r s r a f ae o r o g r t es h m ie r ue dj o v n dg f e o ae b fen r vx m n o g n rx x u r o r h uo fet w s w m ec i r a y b fen r vxi a f ai fl ae r i m r a l s a r g v d p b p h s r h r a f m s in vye b o b t s s ql h w i f n l qi f s u m fyi f r w s ep b e o qd e r vyg b m t u vat h ae v vqo v r s e q cx m es ven r t t u n et ua n w f l t r h m yd x q t h w d ae up b c xn h p m i e ee f g a c xg d r q c p p m c n i ep cx d vae s p b e x g up b m n ye o v i yc w m m sdx q cx f y r m o qe v v d i f cx m el w qa f s p up b m w s n s p s t v v p l ryn s ryb vtn uc f d cx h h
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor with rgb sync to vga yes but what if my monitor only has bnc s on it and is expecting to get a composite sync signal on the green there ought to be a little black box that takes the vga signalling which has horiz vert and composite sync on different pins plus the r g and b pairs and merges the green and composite sync together in the output it s all v analog as far as i know i can build this with op amps but i don t think i can get the shielding done well enough to handle the frequencies involved without lots of shadows and junk on the screen does anyone know of a vga rgb composite sync on green converter paul vixie dec network systems lab palo alto california usa don t be a rebel or a conformist vixie pa dec com decwrl vixie they re the same thing anyway find paul vix com vixie paul your own path and stay on it me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be kushmer bnlux bnl gov christopher kushmerick writes how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i keep a big fan blowing on it but am considering using a heat sink any advice don t hold your finger on it when cooking with it use a very small pan and be sure to not spill liquids on the components if you do not plan to cook with it there are a number of small cooling fans designed to mount on the chip and plug into your power supply look in consumer shoppers now if only some innovative person could design and produce a heat sink which could be used to keep my coffee warm why i might even buy a pentium
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck with your date time problems you might have a problem with the dallas clock chip i m making a possibly bad assumption that your system has a clock chip and that it s the standard dallas clock chip i always look at the battery and the clock chip when such things go wrong at least as the first course of action mel white data services city of garland texas mel white l dragon tworaven lonestar org two ravens bbs asp member bbs fidonet your window to the world mbas listserv tworaven lonestar org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hercules vlb in article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes that is for my wife i just purchased a viewsonic for myself and am looking for a graphics card to drive it i want hz refresh and would really like it to handle my cd roms i tried the orchid p which did neither of those things though robert at wietek did say that the hz was possible if i modifed the driver data base so my thoughts go back to hercules they were supposed to be coming out with a vlb version of the graphite around the end of march i have heard precisely zero about it since then does anyone know if the card was actually released and what capabilities and price it has hmm your cd rom program must be using some oddball vga modes i think they are trying to get it out by the end of this month when it is released though it ll be in limited quantities i think they have quite a back order right now the megs version will come out a bit later since you have a viewsonic i think it has a khz horizontal frequency right you re gonna love the megs version it can do x x at hz x x at hz x x at hz x x at hz it can also do x x mil and x x bit at hz too bad i don t have such a high bandwidth monitor like yours most of those modes need a khz monitor otherwise you ll have to use a lower refresh rate if you want more info about the coming graphite vl you should go to the ibm hardware section on compuserve ibmhw in the video sig there re several hercules reps there that are very helpful stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re promise techhnology caching ide controller in article c t q iq dove nist gov livigni bldrdoc gov david livigni writes looking for help in just the right place does anyone have experience with the promise technology caching ide controller dc m i just ordered one with k installed and have a few questions is it easy to use does it need any kind of tsr s or is it completely transparent to the system board so that i won t have to change the bios configuration yes it s easy to use it s just like an ordinary controller you don t have to change the bios config is it transparent to the ide drive will it work with any drive or does it have to be configured explicity for the type of drive installed it s transparent it works with any drive if you change the drive you only need to change the bios config as usual will it work with a dual drive system master and slave yes no problem with it will i need smartdrive or dos buffers that depends you will get a little better performance if you use smartdrive and buffers in addition that s because access to the card through the isa bus is slower than access to system ram i don t use smartdrive myself but i have a few buffers is the promise technology controller a good one any information would be greatly appreciated thanks david livigni livigni bldrdoc gov anything stated here is my opinion only y d rule of the great when people you greatly admire appear to be thinking deep thoughts they probably are thinking about lunch stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phone number for mitsumi i m trying to get in touch with mitsumi anyone have their number frank pikelner technical assistant department of computer science v v york university toronto canada internet frank cs yorku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ultrastor ultrascsi hi any body has experience with the ultrastor ultrascsi driver package i also need the phone number for ultrastor it s not in the book and i cannot find them in the company listing in computer shopper thanks in advance tony kwong
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on motherboard warehouse can anyone share their experiences good or bad with a tempe vendor named motherboard warehouse i m considering purchasing one of their dx boards one of the selling points is their day full money back guarantee thanks in advance dave masten beta lanl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together i have had a scsi and ide drive working together for some years now scsi is supposedly pretty transparent to other types of drives esdi rll ide etc but oftentimes you need to get the correct drivers to get it to work with odd environments for information purposes i had st card st n drive and a maxtor a drive with generic ide controller running together i have also had the same scsi setup work in combination with a rll drive the st drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help i need a mac se modem port to pc way serial port cable i m trying to connect a mac se modem port to a pc way serial port can someone provide me with a wiring diagram for a null modem lead for this setup please use email since my news feed is a bit quirky thanks in advance sean gordon sean gordon dundee ncr com include stdio h ncr e m ltd long a b c d e f g main for b c tel f b a for d g c c printf d e d a fax e d a for b c d f b a f b d g d g b d b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans nmp mfltd co uk nic percival x wrote just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a stuff deleted my dx is about a week old and is custom built by me and for me i am using the pc power and cooling cpu cooler this one has precision ball bearings in the motor it has a pretty substantial heat sink so if it happened to fail it would still probably dissipate more heat than the bare chip it attaches with peel off adhesive this is a full size at case so the fan has gravity in its favor i would be a little nervous about finding the fan at the bottom of a tower case if it happened to let go all of the cpu fans that i know of are powered from a drive cable there are other board type fans which are isa boards with a couple of fans mounted on them they are powered by the slot i don t know how effective they are maybe someone else could comment the cpu is cool enough to touch with the pcp c unit pc connection at has them for next day delivery the y cord is if you don t have a spare lead off the power supply pcp c make the best power supplies available imho channel r cambridge ma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with parallel i o i writing a program that uses the parallel port my problem is that i need to generate an interrupt when the ack line is pulsed i can get this to occur once but am unable to generate succesive interrupts can someone suggest how i may resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	canon canada would someone please leave me the full address for canon in canada thank you via uci v c net amiga uucp apapouts lotds uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer what is this slot for hi i bought on the net here a mini tower dx system it works fine but i have no docs on the motherboard does anyone know who a manufacturer named wpi is that is the only marking on the board that is not related to a chip connector name it says c wpi also this board has a connector at the other end of the motherboard it looks like this batt socket for math coprocessor chip is about here j signs are the isa slots m p jumpers for turbo kb etc are where e marked r s signs are banks of simm sockets these connectors are the mystery connectors what is this connector is this a place to plug an extra memory board in i ve seen thatr mentioned in some motherboard docs some allow an meg card and meg in simms is this what it is for phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new windows drivers for cirrus gd graphic cards i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer owners please read i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao i use a nanao multisync and switch between a windows x and a sparc display works quite well at these resolutions michael c busby unix system support system engineer sr design environment automation compaq computer corporation internet mcb compaq com p o box m s uunet uunet cpqhou michaelb houston texas usa phone armadillos texas speed bumps views opinions are mine alone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com card shows up as com with com s address and irq i have an internal modem that i configure as com with irq but when i insert that card into my dos pc it shows up as com with irq and com s address e when i get into debug and dump the data at it shows the address e as belonging to com even though the modem should be at com now i know the modem is working correctly since i have tested it in a different pc and it shows up correctly as com e irq to make it work in the dos pc i have to configure the modem as com e irq but though i have a comm program that allows that the fax program that came with the modem does not work anyway i would like the computer to display the modem as it is set as com i did run a few diagnostic programs and they did not help at all a few displayed the modem as com and others displayed it as being com i am not using windows this is just a dos problem any help or pointers appreciated for various reasons i must have this modem work at com thus switching com ports is not an answer last time i posted this i did not get any dos specific answer this time i have included all the specific information please help avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash genesis nred ma us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new gig scsi rpm drives ratings i ve noticed a recent proliferation of gig scsi drives in particular the fujitsu and the micropolis there is also the maxtor lxt s rpm gig drive they are all quite cheap and have nice year warranties my questions are is there a catch which one is better what type of scsi do these drives use is the service generally better for one of these manufacturers are prices likely to go down soon for any reason thanks michael taylor
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article aa mosque cs huji ac il dny cs huji ac il danny halamish writes well i ve installed dos in three different systems with and without stacker a friend installed it in two other systems both with stacker not a single problem except perhaps some minor bugs with config sys menus he s right ya know i ve helped to install dos on about computers now mine included on one he bought the stacker to doublespace converter and it worked fine rather he sent in the coupon for the converter in other cases i ve run the doublespace installation without a problem when compressing a new drive compressing free space or whatever else seems to work for me ofcourse we did not repeat not run any program called install or setup or a very sophisticated ai auto configuring setup installation program that will think for you and do what you never wanted to do but couldn t stop it from doing well i ran the normal setup thing and it worked fine for whatever that s worth also dblspace is crap it writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk no cache and the same big files were used couldn t agree more on my i don t miss the speed it s still faster than a normal disk read would be as for the less compression i ve sacrificed that in favor of the convenience of having the dblspace bin load before anything else with stacker any changes to your config sys or autoexec bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those personally i m waiting for stacker to come out and implement those hooks and stuff plus the defrag that comes with dos is okay but i much prefer compress from pc tools for sheer bells and whistles plus defrag is sooooo sloooow on a dblspace drive but dos is quite good reformat disks i honestly don t understand why you had to do this ditto koberg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed on installing nd ide hd greetings i m a novice in messing comp hardware my original ide hd is a mb western digital which came with the system when i bought it and i just got a mb ide hd maxtor that i wanted to add as a slave drive i did change the jumper settings on a maxtor to configure it as slave drv but i didn t change anything on my m western dig since i didn t have any doc on it and as i predicted it just beeped and gave me an error message about hdd controller so i had to take my m off install my a to be my only hd any help on this matter would be much appreciated before i trashed my mb thankx much handy trisakti uc mizzou missouri edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi or ide the bottom line which would you choose and why like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and a standard ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the best system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floptical drives anyone just curious why floptical drives never seemed to catch on remember those mb disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both kb and mb disks sounds to me to be one great product for the pc market are the prices really that unaffordable compared to cd roms which are currently not rewritable i know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony to develop the first mds for the computer my question is why isn t there any substantial interest in developing the flopticals just a thought kin chan sparrow cmu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help promplem with panasonic kx printer in article apr vill edu vill edu dharmesh chovatia writes i have a panasonic kx just inherited with no documentation which is giving me a problem that i cant resolve is this the kx p you re talking about or is there a kx too i ll assume you just forgot the p the paper out light refuses to go out this light is also the power light on not blinking just means that the power is turned on if you look at the panel it should read power paper out right it starts to blink when ever i turn the power on which beeps don t know why it would do this unless you re out of paper that is it does allow be to go on line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but is does not blink when you power up the printer assuming it does have paper the red power light which when flashing doubles as paper out should light and a few seconds later the green online light should come on hope this helps jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ez scan ii model i have recently picked up a page scanner by the name of ez scan ii model the software for it was made for per windows x windows and will not work with the newwer windows does any one out there kow were i could find the company that made this beast copyrights say and the name gms a division of dest does anyone know if these companies still exist and if they do do they have an email address or if anyone knows of a freeware shareware programme that is able to access this scanner thanks in advance and please email this group scrolls way too quickly akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca aka alexander kasacous master s of public administration programme carleton university the opinions expressed above are mine like anyone else would admit to them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted hard drive buy trade mb or more greetings i am looking to upgrade my hard drive to a much bigger one since i find myself kinda cramped on space althuogh i have never filled it i would like the extra comfort of megs or so if anyone would like to sell trade a newish meg or bigger hard drive for straight and with a trade please e mail me back at johng matt ksu ksu edu with an offer i would also sell my hard drive for about if you really want it it s a mb western digital ide other than that i am not sure what the transfer rate is but it is pretty fast faster than my roommates teac drive i have addstor running on it now and have had it for about months i have never had a problem with it and would guarantee it works upon deliveree thanks john p s i would love a maxtor hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted dx motherboard are there anyone who wants to sell used dx motherboard if you have one please let me know the price and the specification i am also interested in buying trident vga card meg park
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted on thu apr gmt glen osterhout glen tegra com wrote in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks the april issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running on both vlb and eisa x x x x eisa vlb this a wightened speed avarage for many windows tasks the original poster ross mitchell was primary intersted in manipulating large images which implies moving a lot of data from memory to the card does anyone have the benchmarks on this particular task penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ip numbers on ethernet cards in article apr uvm edu djohnson moose uvm edu writes is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card the ethernet card doesn t use the ip number bits usually it uses the ethernet address bits usually i have never run across an ethernet controller that cannot be programmed to use an address that is not assigned to it decnet requires this feature however that said there is no reason to ever change the ethernet address they are globally unique the first three bytes being assigned to the manufacturer by the ieee and the last three by the manufacturer russ nelson crynwr com what canst thou say crynwr software crynwr software sells packet driver support grant st voice lpf member ask me about potsdam ny fax the harm software patents do
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what about dell ariel design austin insight royal hd computers ok so i ve heard about comtrade gateway tc and various others what about your impressions dealings with dell ariel design austin insight royal and hd computers responses by e mail are preferred because they reduce usenet bandwidth i will summarize the responses with another posting in a week blake buhlig colorado state university bb longs lance colostate edu electrical computer engineering
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advic a humble response to a letter by g scott braley written gsb a upgrade would probably cost about about or so gsb coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much tis true i just saw an add for motherboards for i have seen whole systems complete with case power supply keyboard floppy and mono card monitor going for he was a man all and all i shall not look upon his like again blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a null modem c a humble response to a letter by gordon lang written gl i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null gl modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last gl statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are gl it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of gl buying one i don t even know what port is used you may want to save yourself the trouble and go to radio shack they have a null modem adapter which is a pin connector that swaps the necessary pins to allow two machines to communicate these are a lot easier than soldering the connections yourself and usually a bit more reliable p e t a people for the eating of tasty animals blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re questions on installing pas in gw k dx v on thu apr gmt john ngai ngai nova bellcore com wrote i went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed it into my gateway dx v i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma and irq what is pas any articles or reviews describing it penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will my ram work in a i am wanting to upgrade from a sx to a dx and are looking at a cheap quote from someone offering me a dx motherboard with no ram in it i will probably sell my old m board off somewhere now i have meg of ram in my which consists of x module kb simms running at nanoseconds would i encounter problems with the pointed out areas by throwing these from one computer to the other any comments gratefully e mail preferred appreciated brett paterson no i am not dyslexic email s giaec cc monash edu au leongatha victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card the max vesa vl video controller cirus logic chipset mb ram bit color x ni does xfree or support this card markfried please post email
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities as far as i know only diamond has this propriety on it s info mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot on fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins j mdw cc monash edu au wrote if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities considering the above and some postings about diamond s bad attitute towars customers i ordered and actixge vlb m card it will arive these days penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi dos adding a rd drive in article r fr d jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found argh ideas anyone thanks in advance i have got an adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version of fdisk the problem with dos is that it will only see two hard disks any more need to be done by device drivers mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re chaining ide drives in article badry cab badry cs ualberta ca badry jason theodore writes hi i am trying to set up a conner and a quantum at drive i have the conner set to the master and the quantum set to the slave doesn t work the other way around i am able to access both drives if i boot from a floppy but the drives will not boot themselves i am running msdos and have the conner partitioned as primary dos and is formatted with system files i have tried all different types of setups and even changed ide controller cards if i boot from a floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn t report an error message or anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions or has somebody else run into a similar problem i was thinking that i might have to update the bios on one of the drives is this possible any suggestions answers would be greatly appreciated please reply to jason badry badry cs ualberta ca make sure that the hard disk you want to boot from is set as active using the fdisk program that comes with dos mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com w r volz writes what do i gain with this new bios it fixed a problem for us of getting divide errors that were caused by the gw bios overwriting some interapplication memory area our problem was with clarion database programs but i also heard that it fixed the same problem with brief pat gleason maybe something good maybe something pgleason ncratl atlantaga ncr com bad i guess we ll never know
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re funet fi on apr gmt perry wswiop win tue nl perry egelmeers said perry nntp posting host wswiop win tue nl perry artieb vnet ibm com writes i saw a posting earlier that refered to funet fi directory pub msdos however when i log on to funet fi i cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell me what i m doing wrong perry perhaps you should try nic funet fi instead of funet fi another possibility is that you did not give your email address as password for the anonymous account if you that you see following message you entered an invalid inpropable password and are now accessing restricted subset of files please read readme for more information we have special access features see file readme it was last updated tue apr days ago this can happen if your terminal emulator does not generate the character as you think it is hard to see since passwords are not echoed arto v viitanen internet av cs uta fi university of tampere x s av ou cs o ut admd fumail c fi finland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where s the best place to find used pc s usenet or otherwise where is the best place to find classified type ads for used pc s several other computer makes have their own wanted sections on the usenet what about pc s and compatibles where s the cheapest place nationally to buy used pc systems and laptops gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help in c wave asg news udel edu jlredd ravel udel edu joshua smith writes once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem try removing the monitor extension cable reports are that the extension cable is causeing these problems
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price well gateway faxed me a price sheet just now it seems to be on the higher side but then again maybe not dx mhz mb dram ns simms expandable to mb mb western digital ide ms mb dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus with mb vram and bit drivers crystalscan fs color monitor all for this isn t at all too high of a price keep in mind that you get meg of ram a local bus ide and svga card a mb hd and a monitor the local bus ide and svga really kick butt in windows i have used a couple of machines with vlb in the past and all i can do is praise gateway mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer does anyone out there have at hand the phone or fax number for tech power who are a pc motherboard manufacturer may be known as tech power enterprises thannks in advance chris e mail chris forker newcastle ac uk dept marine technology voice newcastle university fax newcastle upon tyne
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phillips monitor conversion hi peeps here s another of those any ideas type queries i ve been given an oldish phillips televideo terminal type thingy without a keyboard but no problem so far when i dismantled it i discovered that it is really just a standard rgb monitor with built in modem rom software etc phillips kindly labelled the circuit board with the rgb inputs so i connected it up as a monitor and he presto it worked sort of the problem is that i have no idea where to connect the sync lines the display rolls continuously but does change modes ok only to cga but useful for my laptop any of you wonderful people any knowledge of phillips monitors i ve tried phillips in the uk and a very helpful guy told me that he has had several enquiries of this sort but phillips computer is now under the auspices of dec at least in the uk dec said sorry phillips don t make it any more what is it anyway a uk support dealer said circuit diagrams sync so any ideas john quote computer scientists are not boring they re wonderful exciting interesting people who just happen to like talking to inanimate objects as if they are human by me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem problem no dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard i m arguing with the phone company about a similar problem we installed a second phone line in our home for our kids and whenever one of them is on their line the modem returns no dial tone on its line when we pick up the phone and listen we can hear my kids voices bleed through whenever we can hear this the modem won t dial even though the dial tone is loud and clear through the modem speaker i think it s the phone company s problem but they say they can t won t correct the problem i m still working on them reid r buyaky sysop heartland multiline bbs micro resources inc dublin ohio unix systems integrators net rbuyaky mr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q internal modems without uart seeing all these questions about uart types their availability and their relative merits wouldn t it be fine if for internal highspeed modems there were a mode of operation bypassing the dull and stupid uart interface and instead accessing directly the relatively large send receive buffers of the modem thus eliminating all problems with interrupt latencies just an idea wolfgang r mueller dvs ze rz uni duesseldorf de computing centre heinrich heine university duesseldorf germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need rules for floppy and twisted cable installation in article apr ncar ucar edu fredrick acd ucar edu timothy fredrick writes i am looking for information on how to install a floppy as drive a a floppy as drive b a twisted cable with the twist between the two floppy connectors and a controller for example should both drives have drive select depends on the fdc but generally no the drive at the end after the twist should be set as drive what about the terminating resistor pack that s in the floppy which connector should go into which drive since you re using the as drive a it should be at the end after the twist with the resistor pack fitted does pin on the connector always correspond with pin on the floppy drive yes stuff deleted hope this helps i had exactly the same problems unfortunately when i changed to different machine the problems started again because of a different fdc seems don t flame me this is mainly guess work from practicle experience that some fdc s do different things with the select john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to change the cluster size wondering if somebody could tell me if we can change the cluster size of my ide drive normally i can do it with norton s calibrat on mfm rll drives but dunno if i can on ide too glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi vs ide randy msc cornell edu writes do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up no all that i ve seen have also an on board bios which enables you to use up to hard drives directly under dos drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than disks will this also be true of the bit os s obviously these are not able to use the bit real mode bioses that are written for dos so you need software drivers that s not a big deal as long as the drivers are available because you won t have to fight with any low memory problems either segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips pro cm monitor hi guys does anyone could tell me at which resolution can work this monitor of course it support x but at x and x with a cirrus card it seems to don t work any clues written by max rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks in article netnews upenn edu balog eniac seas upenn edu eric j balog writes when posting winmark results it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers doesn t anybody actually read the licence agreement of winbench before blindly running it the licence agreement very clearly says that details about hardware configuration driver resolution and other relevant facts must be included when giving winmark results ziff davis wants everybody to do this and that requirement makes sense really plain numbers are useless when resolution driver and machine are unknown pekka taipale hut fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under the original poster john navitsky said that he might use the monitor on a sparcstation lx the lx is able to generate a picture at at hz not officially but i tried to set this resolution and refresh rate and the lx came up with a non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn t handle this speed at hz it worked perfectly when buying a third party monitor that s going to be used on a sparcstation lx you might consider a monitor that s fast enough to do at hz i don t know for sure whether the lx supports this sun certainly won t tell you so you ll have to check adrie koolen adrie ica philips nl philips consumer electronics eindhoven the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	l b vs vesa l b and hi folks i have a mhz and now i m buying a new first question which is the best way to share hard disks and printer p s my two pc will be far about meter and i like to use a parallel port or ethernet card and i like to share resource under dos linux os and windows nt which i think to buy dx mzh local bus but i heard that some board coulnd t work properly cause some incompatibilites is that true should a dx mhz a better solution in case i buy local bus it s better to buy an accelerated svga card with a normal local bus ide controller or it is better to buy a local bus svga card non accelerated with a normal ide controller is there any accelerated local bus and possibly true color svga card at which price i need to buy a cd which is the cheapest that is able to read musical photo kodak and computer cd rom i have heard about a sony and a mitsumi which is best and which controller work with its thank to everyone anserw me rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks micronics ami came out with eisa vlb motherboards byte mag tests indicate that vlb is faster for video but eisa is faster for disk ops so i ll wait for gw k to hopefully start using the micronics board mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	archive vp and qic hi just a quick question reguarding pc tape backup i own a dos box and have an archive vp interface card connected to a qic tape drive now the simple question is does anybody in netland know were i can get some software for msdos ver to run this setup freeware or shareware preferred thanks in advance darryl sorry for the repost but i m still getting to grips with pnews darryl cross inmos ltd mail uk darryl inmos co uk bristol uk or ukc inmos darryl tel ex us uunet inmos com darryl fax internet darryl inmos com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	using xt pwr spply i am planning on upgrading my old xt compatible system with a new motherboard hard drive and mb floppy i am interested in using my old power supply w to power the new hardware if possible i have been told by the motherboard vendor that i could probably use the supply if it had twelve wires going to the motherboard apparently some xt vintage supplies had only wires the th wire is a v line used to charge the motherboard battery my question is has anybody tried bringing an additional wire out of an wire supply or using an auxiliary power source to charge the motherboard battery i do not wish to buy an entirely new power supply if i can make use of my existing one with simple hacks thank you for any information an email reply to rarbanas rcsuna gmr com would be fine larry arbanas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed for the past week or so i ve been trying to install a qic tape drive and an everex bit full size controller in my dx eisa system with no luck i end up getting an error miscompare during the streaming read part of the test i am pretty certain that the port setting irq dma are set properly since the tape responds properly to all commands rewind retension write and erase i also booted the system clean and still the same proble so i also tend to eliminate any memory conflicts it has been suggested that my bus speed is too fast and that i need to slow it down my system has an ami bios and i don t have the advanced chip setting option that i have seen on other systems so i cant do this am i going to have to accept that this set up won t work or can anyone suggest a work around i will be glad to hear your advice suggestions tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi dos adding a rd drive in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article r fr d jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found i have got an adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version of fdisk the problem with dos is that it will only see two hard disks any more need to be done by device drivers odd fdisk works fine for me with ide drives and a scsi drive on my ultrastor f only with the device driver loaded though
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q address for zoom i own a zoom v bis modem and i am having some strange problems i would like to contact the manufacturer but there is no address on the box does any have their address or telephone number thanx don smith don smith djs ultb rit edu djs ritvax bitnet finger djs ultb rit edu for pgp public key
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and t sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatical dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier the sportster at has v error control and v bis data compression this is becoming standard on all these high speed modems the difference with the courier is that it can run at and only in the hst mode the courrier will not run at only the dual standard hst the usr modem over my courrier will do up to and with compression error correction much more it will do v v bis v v bis v etc etc and asl too whatever asl is david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings discussing the use of irq in recent article msprague superior mcwbst b mike sprague writes i as a number of poeple in this thread have already written i can t prove it s true but i believe it lpt does not actually use irq even though that interrupt is supposed to be dedicated to lpt to put it a little differently irq is the de facto standard interrupt assigned to be used by the printer adapter to announce its completion of some activity dos doesn t monitor irq it uses other means to determine when it s time to send out another byte to the printer most all hardware printer adapters have the ability to disable the use of irq usually by merely breaking the connection between the isa pin and the associated driver other adapters control the irq line by a tri state driver and by programming just leave it in the high impedence mode unfortunately there are a lot of adapter cards which use bistate drivers i e either assert high or assert low for the irq lines rather than tristate drivers assert high assert low or don t assert anything the presence of such a card on an irq line precludes the use of that irq by any other adapter unless it is physically disconnected by a jumper incidentally note that there s no requirement that a card hold the irq line low when no interrupt is desired if that were true you would have to somehow tie down all unconnected irq lines and that certainly isn t a requirement non dos operating systems os nt various unices or whatever the proper plural of unix might be require the use of irq for performance reasons and the sb alas is one of the cards which uses bistate drivers joe morris mitre jcmorris mitre org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao there is a good report list on most all of the good monitors in this months issue of computer shoppers magazine with their phone munbers and all april issue sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb scsi card suggest gisie wam umd edu satan wrote can someone recommend a decent vesa local bus scsi controller card i saw a post for the ultrastor something or other and was wondering if this would be a good choice i need a supported card that software like the march nt beta will recognize buslogic just announced the bt fast scsi vlb interface as of april this always happens to me i have a one week old bt s which is the isa version i am enjoying spectacular performance with a micropolis mc mb ms hh rpm drive i ll be changing to the bt very soon though it is difficult to imagine even higher transfer speeds with the bit vesa support you can call buslogic and ask em about the nt question i hear that the support is excellent i have not had to call them myself yet regards channel r cambridge ma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes in article aa mosque cs huji ac il dny cs huji ac il danny halamish writes also dblspace is crap it writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk no cache and the same big files were used couldn t agree more on my i don t miss the speed it s still faster than a normal disk read would be as for the less compression koberg i recall reading a review article in pc computing wherein they reported a reduction in the loading time for lengthy programs using stacker this was not due to the compression algorithm per se but to the fact that fewer fetches were required during the sequential file access does anyone have any actual performance numbers relating to speeds of stacker and dblspace bs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article z zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx one of the things going for the dx over the is that it s clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but most fellow diamond video board owners with whom i ve corresponded may or may not share your opinion about the proprietary clocking scheme but all of those with whom i ve chatted have not been thrilled with the window s drivers either some modes work fine but others cause strange misdrawn objects trails etc many have also voiced their strong discontent to diamond s ambivalent attitude toward os drivers come to think of it though i hear and see a lot of complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better does anyone have an accelerated video board with drivers for windows os where all the modes function properly anyone anyone lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floptical drives anyone kin chan sparrow cmu edu wrote just curious why floptical drives never seemed to catch on remember those mb disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both kb and mb disks sounds to me to be one great product for the pc market are the prices really that unaffordable compared to cd roms which are currently not rewritable i know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony to develop the first mds for the computer my question is why isn t there any substantial interest in developing the flopticals certainly in the uk the mb flopticals are about the same price as a cheap cd rom now you seem to be able to get them for around gbp however the bigger optical drives e g mb are much more expensive around the gbp mark a couple of questions that someone may be able to answer the mb flopticals are they direct drop in replacements for a floppy or do they need driver software etc i e do you just rip out the floppy drive plug the same cables into the floptical stick in a flopti disk and hey presto you have a mb floppy this sounds far too easy on the subject of sony developing mds for computers i have reread a pcw article on this subject and there it says that sony have been doing optical drives for other people for some time and may be about to do a product themselves from the article it seems that the audio md format is a byproduct of their computer storage work the md mechanism is identical to their mo computer optical drives a sony spokesman was quoted as saying that a md disk would hold about mb of data though he refused to comment on any possibility of this being productized the article said that one of the problems holding back development in this area was lack of sensible standards plus there are at least distinct optical storage mechanisms around at present given that it probably needs mds being used as a distribution medium to get it into the market and since this has already been cornered by cds it probably needs someone to come in with a very strong marketting lead to get mds accepted david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol bs sq they didn t like the rates they don t like the poll tax and they won t like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cached hardrives after reading many postings concerning hard drives i m still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate like on the controller or something thanks to anyone who can clear this up tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for comments on compaq deskpro s hello if you have any experience knowledge comments advice etc about compaq s eisa deskpro machines please reply preferably via email i m thinking of getting one and am looking for any all user comments thanks ps i m looking at a m
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help led connectors for motherboard article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki a stassen lantz subject help led connectors for motherboard date thu apr i bought a dx motherboard for no documentation at all everything appears to work except i m having trouble getting a few of the led connectors working i ve looked at the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn t look anything like what is on this board does this pin arrangement look familiar to anyone out there any hints on where i can find this information speaker keylock j the board came with a jumper vertically across these two pins i can get the power keylock to work across pins reset across pins and shown press space for more q to quit or h for help but would prefer not to blow something up by further experimentation the date on the board itself is opti chips i would really appreciate any help and thank you in advance n a stassen lantz end of file press return to quit nicji it would realy realy help if you said what chipset and if the board was an upgradable or not board and how old it and the bios is sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ide drive installation problems article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann subject help ide drive installation problems date thu apr i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy end of file press return to quit krispy lets start with what promise controller that you have ther are only about or of them made the one that i have the dc m needs nothing done but install it as stated as to the th hd you do know about running fdisk on it and partisitions and then formatting it after your finished with the fdisk operation right sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway zeos compare in article yetti uucp cs cs yorku ca chin h lam writes i am think of buying a new computer through the mail order i am looking at the gateway v systen and the zeos s system which is better in terms of value price ungrade service because i am in canada i wonder can i have the same level of service as in the states i don t know about canada but i have heard from people doing translation work in papua new quinea that they like them and have had good response on service another is seriously considering buying one john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve plano tx fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help did you ever notice that of all the problems are from people that run windows thanks ms gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios passwords i hope that there s somebody out there that can help us some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always what we d like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password we have tried switching bios but to no avail the battery is soldered to the bord an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can t remove the batteries thanks isak isak venter itbijv puknet puk ac za money can t buy happiness but surely pays for the illusion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards that is if the special software is free like xfree there are vendors that sells diamond x drivers for commercial unices but then they charge this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements i think they only need a signing i e no paying this still violates the fsf s policy of publically available code this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities while this is true there are fixes for those who have already bought diamond cards in linux for example there are utilities that will put the card in vesa mode before invoking x of course this means no fine tuning of diamond cards but at least this will allow those who re stuck with them to use linux x i agree with mark s suggestion if you are buying a video card for specialized free software avoid diamond but if you already have one there may be a fix that can help you james jjctc chevron com the shortest distance between jtsiao netcom com two puns is a straight line ask me about linux the freely distributable unix clone for the
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio re midwest micro article is last newsgroups comp dcom modems comp sys ibm pc hardware misc consumers from wilson schaefer math wisc edu bob wilson subject re consumer warning midwest micro ohio date thu apr i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle in addition to the facts that a the modems i had ordered two wouldn t work as documented and b the tech person had no clue as to how it should work it also turned out that c one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and d the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent is one thing but that they sell used stuff as new and won t even apologize for it is another stay away from these crooks bob wilson shown press space for more q to quit or h for help wilson math wisc edu end of file press return to quit bob i have walked into micro center here in the cleveland area and bought a new track ball and picked the only one that was sealed in plastic rap only to get it home and oped it up to find a good year old used dirty old track ball with a warranty card for some software package i would never even think of installing anything that looked like it was used at all you should of called medwest micro and made them do a pus pull tag on it they would of picked it up and sent you out a ner one the same day things get better in knowing how to but equipment after the first try gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao adrie koolen adrie ica philips nl wrote in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under the original poster john navitsky said that he might use the monitor on a sparcstation lx the lx is able to generate a picture at at hz not officially but i tried to set this resolution and refresh rate and the lx came up with a non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn t handle this speed at hz it worked perfectly i don t know which tube the viewsonic uses but it has an khz horizontal bandwidth so you can go pretty high i ran mine at x x which was as fast as the orchid p could drive it also the does claim to be able to support x but i have no experience with that since i have the spec sheet in front of me i ll type some in crt mm dot pitch deg deflection rgb mediou short persisance tint tm anti static anti glare anti reflection input signal rgb analog vp p ohms also has setting for vp p sync h v separate ttl composite sync on green horizontal freq khz vertical freq hz compatibility pc from vga to x non interlaced mac iici and above controls contrast brightness position size degauss p p voltage color temp sync select color tuning moire on off video band witdth mhz max brightness cd m at white flat field misconvergence mm max at center mm max at corner dimensions x x weight lbs i don t know what some of those mean and don t verify their accuracy i just typed them in other things they hype on the sheet are a double quaduple dynamic astigmatism focus right they mean they use two lenses advanced invar shadow mask viewmatch color control which they claim is and easy to use system that adjusts colors to closely match printer output as near as i have been able to figure out this translates to separate controls for red green and blue how this makes it easy to match for printer output is beyond me but beyond the hype the monitor is very pleasant to look at sharp clear and isn t nearly as bad as the nec s for reflections geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re bios passwords some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always what we d like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password we have tried switching bios but to no avail the battery is soldered to the bord an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can t remove the batteries as far as i know there is no way to get around the bios password except by shorting out the power supply to the cmos memory thereby erasing it this will remove the password but it will also destroy all the previous bios settings so then you ll have to go and set them all up again on my there is a jumper on the motherboard which is provided for the purpose of shorting the battery you just short this jumper briefly and it interrupts power to the cmos long enough to erase it i would imagine there is something like this on your board too in the future i would suggest that you set the password and leave it on setup only that way no one else can go and reset it or set it to always unless they know what password you used they had to do this over here too when they got a bunch of new s for just the same reason dale dale m nurden nurden elaine ee und ac za technical co ordinator dept of electronic engineering durban youth radio university of natal durban durban south africa south africa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt end of file press return to quit yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa graphic card info source hi that might look like a dull request but i have been following this newgroup for a couple of weeks and it didn t help me make my mind i bought a new machine not long ago after being disconnected from the pc world for a while i have been running on an xt mhz till last january the machine i bought came equipped with a ati vga xl graphic card it gives a very nice picture and the windows drivers are pretty stable the only problem is that it is quite slow i would like to go for a faster card not in the range i saw a lot of comments on many products over the last weeks but didn t get an overall picture clear enough to make a choice my question is could somebody direct me to a source of information which would help me in my quest i would like to get information about the refresh rates the various cards provide quality of windows drivers standard vga performance non windows stuff direct me to a magazine article or something like that i got winvid zip info but it is not enough if you have an isa card you are really satisfied with it let me know if this information is of any use here is my system configuration fujikama mhz isa system contaq motherboard monitor darius non interlaced multisync up to x can reach khz horizontally i would also like to know if it is a standard for video drivers to allow screen dimensioning and screen positioning by writing on the eprom of the graphic card this is the case with my ati card and it is very convenient when changing graphics mode since my monitor is not intelligent enough to record settings merci a l avance for any information you would be kind enough to provide me guy lamouche lamouche ere umontreal ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes with stacker any changes to your config sys or autoexec bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those this is not necessary all you have to do is modify the config sys on d or the real boot up partition disk then you can manually copy it to c or allow stacker to do it on boot up likewise with the autoexec bat private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	subject re v a in article apr ns cc lehigh edu you write what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks the difference is that the got bugs while the a can be used whithout problems even in fast serial communications other sources say that only the afn from nat semi i e not second sources is really ok best wishes oliver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help i believe i have the same monitor problem i have a system from micron computers with the mag the same monitor as the gateway and am having the same symptoms what s this with removing the monitor extension cable thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price then again maybe for the gateway system isn t too cheap i have a system from micron computers meg ram maxtor hd local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came to i sold the sx chip that came with it and bought a dx total price
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article r s mec usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam this isn t quite true depending on the number of local bus slots and whether or not the device is integrated into the mother board it is possible to run local bus at up to and mhz i ve also spoken to a few people who run standard local bus video cards at mhz without trouble and a couple of people who couldn t get a lb card to work at that speed brian bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article apr mfltd co uk nmp mfltd co uk writes just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got a cpu fan yes is there more than type yes seen glue on tape on clip on one inch square and larger my favorite is the inch plastic u s toyo fan i use just plopped down on top of the chip during open case service do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan depends on the mounting do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines only if the manufacturer was smart anyone had any trouble with cpu fans only if it goes out got that blanket effect which doesn t help chip life does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money longer system life makes good economic sense to me how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese yes well not the melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without lets you touch the surface the rule of thumb for cooling solid state an advert i ve read claims f vs f any info appreciated the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing i prefer to put a stock fan off the drive brackets or front panel to blow air across the cpu depends a lot on case and board layout though on chip fans from fry s electronics in the sf bay area are about i get the stock power supply fans for about steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help how to have a quiet pc the fan in my power supply like most is distractingly loud has anyone found a solution to running a pc with peace and quiet short of buying a notebook pc i don t know what to do oh yeah i did hear about a power supply called a silencer which is supposed to be more quiet has anyone had experience with this i was quoted a price of for a watt silencer i ve even considered stuffing my pc case in one of those acoustic printer enclosures but that wouldn t be the most elegant solution also i m guessing that would also cut the ventilation any other ideas thanks in advance for any suggestions please e mail whatever you post alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ad lib wav driver i currently have a ad lib card it can play mid files in windows but it cannot play the startup wav files i called microsoft no help i cannot call ad lib since they went belly up does anyone know if there are special drivers that i need for this if so where are they thanx in ad libvance c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	notebooks i posted this once but didn t receive any responses i ve been looking for a good notebook for about my two favorites are the zeos freestyle sl and the micro something or other winbook the one with the apple powerbook style trackball and handrest and the slc any suggestions on others i d love to hear from someone who has one of the two mentioned above too thanks in advance jrl james r lendino computer science i phone columbia s e a s internet jrl cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa can t use over megs ram o k i am not a computer literate but what can cannot be done with the ram over megs in an isa machine please e mail thanks in advance charley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor at jumper settings i need to know the jumper settings for master and or slave operation on a maxtor at mb ide hard disk thanks in advance erik svensson ers skanska se tel skanska data s danderyd sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans russest ampex com steve russell writes deletions the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this is a valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units i ve seen it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all in other words if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily i prefer to put a stock fan off the drive brackets or front panel to blow air across the cpu depends a lot on case and board layout though my zeos dx tower case has a passive heat sink on the cpu and it s located so the front fan which sucks air into the case blows right on the heat sink if that fan stops the heat sink is still cooled by convection air flow so should not see too dramatic a temperature rise essentially the arrangement you re talking about and a good idea imho on chip fans from fry s electronics in the sf bay area are about i get the stock power supply fans for about steve al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios replacement my pc is a dx isa with ami bios and opti chipset i am thinking of replacing the ami bios chip dated with an up to date one not for any reason just messing around my questions are do i just take out the old one and plug in a new anything else i have to take care of what precautions should i take where can i get the new bios chip compusa mailorder or what i live in orange county california what is the most up to date version very important how much would it be thank you for your help paul
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help com port problems and mouse hello i want to know if a spoilt com port will create problems with mouse my mouse just gets stuck on the screen for a while and i have to press its button to be able to move it around again is there a shareware utility program to diagnose my com ports thanks ming
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding a second ide drive in article c r ur d r ulowell ulowell edu mcook cs ulowell edu michael cook writes i just bought a western digital caviar mb ide drive and i want to add it to my system which already has a wd ide drive the controller says it supports hard drives but when i plug in the cables do the bios setup and try to start the system it pauses and then i get an invalid drive d error message the system boots but i cannot access the new hard drive the new drive works fine as drive c if it s all alone but i am not able to get both drives working at the same time any help is appreciated thanks mike you need to run fdisk eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help floppy problem my floppy drive stopped recognizing low density k floppies the controller and drive works fine in another system i was told it could be the dma chip the system is a dx using chips technology chip set i m open to all suggestions please send your replies to ken jazz concert net thanks in advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t set com g ks answer gateway service has confirmed my suspicion echoed by a couple of people who responded to the original request for help the ati vlb video board uses the addresses for com they could suggest no work around i will be returning the df io card they supplied for com even though it could not possibly work for credit against a bus mouse this will free up the com port i need too bad the original salesman who suggested either the df io card or the bus mouse would solve my need for a port didn t know enough about the hardware otherwise i must say that the dx system has worked very well no problems with any other hardware or software john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article c xwri npe austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes come to think of it though i hear and see a lot of complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better build still has a number of problems sheared fonts for instance if you have crystal fonts enabled some other problems color darkening and some others i don t use the drivers in any mode other than x x so if there are bugs in the other modes i can t say does anyone have an accelerated video board with drivers for windows os where all the modes function properly anyone anyone to be honest up until now i have only found one bug in the diamond viper drivers and it seems innocuous that is under microsoft word select format border click shading and take a look at the patterns the pattern has been swapped with the and so on the whole list is completely reversed looks right onscreen but take it to another machine i e a gup or ss x machine or print it and iy shows badly keep in mind that i use mainly x x k mode so i can t speak for the others but otherwise these drivers seem pretty solid what s big noisy and has an iq of operation rescue
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller which one is true the vl ide adapter can be much faster then the normal ide it depends on the drive you use and the board you use i am using a noname vl ide i o contr it is tested under coretest with kb s using a cheap seagate and nearly kb s using a wd caviar you have figure out the jumper setting on the controller to get reliable diskaccess fastest setting gets kb s under coretest but does not work reliable you have to shadow the adapter bios to get the fast speed i haven t used a vl ide cache controller yet but it might speed up twice dieter dieter fritzsche dieter dischw toppoint de maehlsweg d kiel germany master of the wom tel voice fax box zyxel v fast waffle fax compuserve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comtrade in article apr enh nist gov thacker enh nist gov writes has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when i asked about tc i got one reply describing problems returning a defective hard drive should i expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami fl i purchased one personal computer and three for business from them no problems the only time i called tech support was for a minor question about a video driver and i had no problem getting through all four machines seem to be high quality and well made a dx eisa machine has been our network file server running hrs per day since last summer with no problems i hope this is helpful allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help joshua smith jlredd ravel udel edu wrote once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem i have the meg card with the crystal scan inch also i see very faint shadows on the left side of the screen only in x mode but not enough to really bother me the characters on the screen are clear until i turn on the crystal fonts then they become blurry i have a friend who has meg on the video card who has the same shadows but says the crystal fonts are well crystal clear we are both using build of the mach drivers neither of us has a monitor extension cable i tried the build driver and found no difference tim king tcking uswnvg com us west newvector group inc bellevue washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ibm link to imagewriter in article uupcb ozonehole com chris crayton ozonehole com chris crayton writes on larry henson had the unmitigated gall to say this lh hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone lh i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how lh can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but lh it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx lpt ports don t recognize baud parity etc settings you might be tring to connect a serial printer to a parallel port try this attach the serial port of the printer to a serial port on the pc use the mode command to set the com port settings try c mode com n to set the port parameters then use the mode command to redirect the printer port lpt like this c mode lpt com this should work good luck first you need to connect them with a null modem cable atleast thats what i ve heard dave
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used db db pin pin name eia ccitt dte dce description fg aa frame ground td ba transmitted data rd bb received data rts ca request to send cts cb clear to send dsr cc data set ready sg ab signal ground dcd cf data carrier detect positive dc test voltage negative dc test voltage qm equalizer mode sdcd scf secondary data carrier detect scts scb secondary clear to send std sba secondary transmitted data tc db transmitter clock srd sbb secondary receiver clock rc dd receiver clock dcr divided clock receiver srts sca secondary request to send dtr cd data terminal ready sq cg signal quality ri ce ring indicator ch data rate selector ci data rate selector tc da transmitted clock from another posting in c s i p h sorry don t know the author connecting devices normally a wire connection is used connect gnd to gnd rxd to txd txd to rxd dtr to dsr dsr to dtr rts to cts cts to rts if a modem is connected add lines for the following ri dcd if software wants it connect dcd to cts and dcd to cts beware while pcs use pin for rxd and pin for txd modems normally have those pins reversed this allows to easily connect pin to pin pin to pin etc if you connect two pcs cross rxd and txd if hardware handshaking is not needed a so called null modem connection can be used connect gnd to gnd rxd to txd txd to rxd additionally connect if software needs it rts to cts dcd rts to cts dcd dtr to dsr dtr to dsr you won t need long wires for these the null modem connection is used to establish an xon xoff transmission between two pcs see software section for details remember the names dtr dsr cts rts refer to the lines as seen from the pc this means that for your data set dtr rts are incoming signals and dsr cts are outputs end michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	low emission monitors who besides nec does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how do they compare to necs quality and emission wise tia les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re plus hardcard owners help in article r o m c usenet ins cwru edu evw po cwru edu eric v wong writes hi there i have a problem here i ve lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard can someone email me the files or let me know if plus development were they bought out by quantum has a bbs or phone i have a hardcard ii xl the quantum bbs number is good luck les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick again my disk that had my joystick code that some of you were kind enough to mail me puked specifically i am looking for c code to read the position of joystick without using int h i e accessing port x x directly i need it in c becaues of memory model considerations i only need to be able to read the x and y position also brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this is a valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units i ve seen it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all in other words if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily a suggestion slave hook in series a small pilot light off the fan circuit then if the light goes out you know your fan is not working tom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature vs cpu activity organization compact solutions canberra act australia this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job from what i ve seen in coursework most cpus never actually idle they will continue to service interrupts etc etc the clock will always be running at n mhz no matter what it s doing i suppose depending on the instruction the cpu may use circuitry which has more transistors than other instructions but if you consider the additional heat generated by only a handful of additional tiny resistors and then spread that heat dissipation over the cpu s packaging the change in temperature to the immediate environment ie the surface of the package will be negligible cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk caching organization compact solutions canberra act australia has anybody every come across a problem whereby a hard disk locks up ie crashes the system when attempting to load disk caching i think the logic board may have been buggered but the drive works perfectly without a disk cache i tried hyperdisk and various versions of smartdrive all to no avail any advice would be much appreciated i need a cached drive but i need the extra space of my second drive just as much thanks cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	read only harddrive on a few computers which we have here at sheridan college there are files which we would like to make read only i have used the dos attrib command but some people who carry around the attrib program in their pockets have still been able to erase some of the more important files are there any software packages which would make an entire drive read only an example partition the drive into two partitions and have the first drive contain the important files which can be only read and the second drive you could both read and write any and all enquiries or help would be appreciated thanx mark zander sheridanc on ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help bios upgrade on compaq deskpro howdy i recently upgraded the original bios in a compaq deskpro with a phoenix replacement bios in order to support an ide hard drive and a high density floppy i assumed that this would be a plug and play procedure but i have encountered a problem that phoenix and compaq are unwilling to admit responsibilty for and i was wondering if anyone else had seen it everything is hunky dory except the floppy which will read but not write diskettes any write attempt merely corrupts both fats i have tried everything i can think of any takers micah h lax ab freenet carleton ca micah bnr ca on internet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy problems organization compact solutions canberra act australia i have a floppy drive which has developed general failure errors it s a teac mb drive i took it out of the machine and noticed it was very dusty i used a high powered air can to blow all this dust out and it s quite clean now however it didn t help the problem i ve also identified that when the machine boots and the drive seeks for a boot disk the head movement during this process is now approximately half the length of the original time what i mean is the period when the drive light comes on and the heads move from their retracted position out to the track containing the boot sector is there anything more i can do to try and save this drive i d prefer not to shell out for a new one if i can help it thanks cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth pro mb vram i want to have some info about diamond stealth pro mb vram what graphics modes does it support are hi color modes included to vesa bios for use with dos programs any experiences yet bugs advantages how fast is it under windows and dos price thanks lasse mits mdata fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help i m afriad that s not true the monitor problem seems to occur whenever the mag monitor is put into x mode i m running os at and the same symptoms appear it does not seem like a video card problem as the cirrus logic chip and the ati gup seem to cause these problems two very different cards glenn
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need specs for a western digital ide hd a friend of mine needs spec for a used hard drive he just got it is a western digital ide meg with cylinders and heads we believe the model number is wd a but we can t be sure it is a ms model any info would be appreciated either from somone who knows or maybe western digitals phone number thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re or grayscale displays below is the list of large at least inches diagonal monochrome monitors which computer shopper lists as pc compatible i ve omitted radius because radius states that they no longer support the pc you will notice that nanao is the only one which supports a khz horizontal frequency which is the frequency normally used by vga cards at boot up my guess is that all the other monitors come with their own graphics cards i ve left voice mail with nanao asking them to send me some literature and will report back to the net after i ve studied it the prices given appear to be list prices and have little relationship to reality kenneth almquist cut here cornerstone technology concourse dr san jose ca dualpage diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps dualpage diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps ikegami electronics u s a inc brook ave maywood nj dm ad diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc image systems corp k tel hopkins nm or m lmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac m lv max diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc ps mac m pmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac m pmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac nanao usa corp telo ave torrence ca flexscan diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac ran ger technologies inc address unknown the genuis model m diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc sampo corp of america p o box atlanta ga imagepro diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc officepro iie diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price advertized pg april shopper compatible with pc samsung electronics america inc address unknown you could try samsung information systems inc n st st san joes ca pagemaster mu a am diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc mac sigma designs inc bayside pkwy freemont ca l view diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac l view multimode diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac multimode diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price min compatible with pc silverview diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price min compatible with pc ps mac
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article apr nessie mcc ac uk victor comms ee man ac uk victor buttigieg writes lino montuno montuno physics su oz au wrote this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running i totally agree with your friend since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception to this is for cpu s used in laptops where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again actually the iapx family has a halt instruction that causes the cpu to cease processing instructions the cpu resumes processing either by being reset or by receiving an external hardware interrupt this is different from the power management facilities victor mentions of course whether an operating system s idle loop uses the halt instruction is another matter entirely kenneth r ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge ma internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi or ide the bottom line in article apr msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes which would you choose and why i have both i have ide only on my dros box and ide and scsi on my unix box ide on the dros box cos it only has a hard disk scsi on my unix box cos it has a scsi hard disk cd rom and tape i bought scsi as it makes adding many devices easier for the price of one irq and dma i have three different types of device connected up faster drives are also available for scsi i have a dec dsp s that realy does have a ms average seek time i e it finds data faster than my ms toshiba drive like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and a standard ide controller card on my isa i don t think that scsi will increase your data transfer much on an isa bus i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu kb s is pretty good how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the best system i could hope for many state of the art scsi disks use the same mechanicals as many state of the art ide drives only the interface electronis differ look at the mb fijitsu drive for an example obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost i use an adaptec b on my unix box and no name ide cards on both along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost caching controller why what does it give you that smartdrive for dos does not about kb extra lower memory that s about it a properly configured main memory cache will produce better results than a caching controller my unix reads reads data from its main memory cache at mb s that s faster than the standards isa bus can ever sustain thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article r s mec usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt end of file press return to quit yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam which bus i think there are several reasons mhz motherboards are harder to get right mhz need a fast l cache ns is a good idea mhz needs to be slowed down to make a compliant vesa bus mhz dx chips are faster for a lot of things with a good fast l cache a dx is going be be faster than a dx what do i have a dx of course gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa bus scsi or ide in article apr msc cornell edu randy msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes questions deleted i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi does any one know what the pas scsi port is i counted the pins on the board displayed in their ad and it only got what happened to the other did they junk a whole bunch of grounds or what thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster in article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster ca cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes perhaps this is a silly question but here goes what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and the sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatically dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier i d really appreciate your comments before i decide on which one i buy thanks in advance and thanks again to those that replies to us robotics info wanted kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca the courier looks a lot cooler the courier is upgradable to vfast you have to give usr more money for that tho the sportster is able to be modified to be a dual standard if you want to void your warantee and totally piss usr off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	artec monitor does anyone have a manual for an artec ni monitor i need the specs thanks rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re will my ram work in a in article apr monu cc monash edu au s giaec cc monash edu au brett paterson writes i am wanting to upgrade from a sx to a dx and are looking at a cheap quote from someone offering me a dx motherboard with no ram in it i will probably sell my old m board off somewhere now i have meg of ram in my which consists of x module kb simms running at nanoseconds would i encounter problems with the pointed out areas by throwing these from one computer to the other there should be no problem with this just remember to get the number of wait states correct any comments gratefully e mail preferred appreciated brett paterson no i am not dyslexic email s giaec cc monash edu au leongatha victoria australia guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes on fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins j mdw cc monash edu au wrote if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities i don t think the two main free x systems xs and xfree are part of the fsf as such considering the above and some postings about diamond s bad attitute towars customers i ordered and actixge vlb m card it will arive these days does anyone know of an e mail address for diamond to which penio could forward his purchase information penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cached hardrives in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes after reading many postings concerning hard drives i m still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate like on the controller or something thanks to anyone who can clear this up i have two scsi hard drives each has kb of cache there several reasons for this when the drive has read requested data from the disk the scsi bus may be busy this data needs to be stored some where until the bus is free and the data can be transmitted when the drive receives data to be written the data can come down the bus faster than the drive can write it to the disk it needs to be stored somewhere while the disk is writing it out in these situations the memory is being used as a buffer not a cache may be the drive does some read adead caching as well tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hp laserjet fax opinions needed has anyone tried this hp laserjet fax it receives faxes and prints them on your hp iii also from your word processor you can print straight to the fax has anyone had any problems fonts not working
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone simple first andrew is correct although i can see where there might be some confusion it is indeed possible to have two cards configured to use the same interrupt they can not share the interrupt in the sense that it is not possible to have both cards active at the same time here is an example for some time i was short of free interrupts i had a tape controller not a floppy tape that needed one of irq irq it s an old tape drive my solution was to use irq also used for com where my modem is i did this because i reasoned i would never be using the modem and the tape simultaneously when kermit runs it installs its own interrupt handler for irq and uses the serial port if the tape drive were to generate an interrupt kermit would not have a clue what to do with for the tape controller and since the tape controller would not be serviced it would most likely hang likewise when the tape backup software runs it installs an interrupt handler for irq that handler won t do anything for the serial port under dos printing is not interrupt driven instead the bios polls the status of the parallel port to determine when another byte may be sent that s why you can have your sound card and lpt both configured to use irq try that on nt and see how far you ll get kenneth r ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge ma internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need specs for a western digital ide hd the number for western digital is albert dirr internet address dirr tsclion trenton edu tsc student bitnet address dirr tscvm e s major phone x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	epson action printer new for sale i have two un opened new epson action printers for sale list price at compusa is i m asking shipping for each my friend and i got the printers at a promotional event at one of the compusa stores near our area we didn t need printers so we re selling it specs for printer pin dot matrix printer cps draft cps nlq sheet paper tray does single sheets prints on letterhead small footprint can be used either flat or upright quiet operation can support an optional tractor feeder comes with full year manufacturer s warranty if interested reply to phillyg acs bu edu trades are welcome khoa nguyen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks i just purchased and installed a mb quantum hard drive model lps a and have a concern about its behavior although the disk drive itself seems to behave properly with respect to file i o it performs what i call phantom seeks when the pc is absolutely idle i can hear a spurt of activity in the drive every seconds lasting seconds this activity seems to be initiated strictly within the drive itself since the disk led never comes on the disk led is attached to the disk controller card not the drive my other hard disk a seagate st a does not have this kind behavior can anyone comment on this strange phenomenon steve harrold swh cup hp com hpg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem i have a ibm clone with two serial ports com com and mouse port both the serial ports are directly sitting on the mother board i tried to install a buad hayes internal modem but it doesnt work once i dial any number the system locks i do not hear any click or ring before it the system hangs the modem has a pin dip switch to select the appropriate port once i change the settings on the dip switch the system starts working again then i bought a baud hayes external modem and checked the system it works fine with both the serial ports the internal modem has been checked on another machine and it works fine but does not work on my machine can anyone please help me to find the problem thanks narm gadiraju ngadiraj infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi vs ide in article iisakkil apr beta hut fi iisakkil beta hut fi mika iisakkila writes randy msc cornell edu writes do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up no all that i ve seen have also an on board bios which enables you to use up to hard drives directly under dos drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than disks no the always in among others requires no drivers for up to scsi hard drives dos does not have a drive maximum as i already have all is done in hardware there s no software drivers at all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help is a samtron sc interlaced or non hello my colleague has a samtron monitor on the manual cover it says sc and sc for model numbers the manual does not specify if it is interlaced or non interlaced so does anyone know what it is thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks this is normal behavior for these drives and many other models the drive is doing a recalibration adjusting for temperature changes if you leave the machine on the frequency of the recalibrations goes way down
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	writing emm driver i m writing a driver that needs to remap some i o ports this means virtual mode unfortunately virtual mode means it won t get along with expanded memory managers so i need make it an emm driver too does anyone out there have emm code can any point me to an emm code source thanks morgan morgan dl bc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et w chip graphics accelerator i got a et w card which is made by cardex yesterday and ran a winmark test on it the card is a vl bus card which can display million colours in x mode with mb dram it comes with et w window drivers and a normal et drivers the et w drivers handles x x x in colours also in x and x it supports hicolor k and k colours here is my winmark result running on a mb dx eisa vl bus system using hint chipsets winmark from zd lab using et w drivers x megapixel sec k k x k k kx using et drivers x m x colours kx from the result the et w drivers are specialized to use the hardware feature of the et w chip whereas the et drivers are just normal driver for et based graphics card the price of this graphics card that i got is from a local dealer it may be less from mail order it has os drivers comes with it which supports colors on all resolution from these results it has double the performance of a et ax based card in colours mode philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington it is all my opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article c xw x btb austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance har tmann writes in article z zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writ es would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx one of the things going for the dx over the is that it s clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com a couple other problems with the dx system manufacturers had major problems solving the electromagnetic interference problems with dx systems getting an fcc b home use certification required additional shielding in the system heat a lot of people seem to be installing heat sinks and or cooling fans on their dx chips i would guess that the dx ran temperatures inside the case even hotter and heat is the enemy of system reliability ed any above opinions are the sole property of the below named person edward k jen ejen magnus acs ohio state edu academic computing services the ohio state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio in article r jqm ebm usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i must say that i have been a customer of midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care of on each purchase i have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they do have some experience with setting up modems so there have been no problems in of them that i know of the fact that your time to valuable for you to spend on the modem is where you went wrong why you say because i must tell you of the yes i say ppi modems that i have had in the past that i was trying to use on my bbs they all were junk and were replace times each to ther point that i just said forget it and i wanted my money back ppi s teck even said that they didn t even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest of the modem i think it was more your fault than midwest mirco s faulkt sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash what ever happened to the idea that the customer is always right joe p s i consider midwaste micro s technique of slapping their own name on a product to be misleading especially if it was not originally manufactured with that intent in mind
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products as well as some others that may fit the bill from the may computer shopper magazine nanao f i nanao t i tube manufacturer mitsubishi sony trinitron active screen size diag maximum resolution x x video bandwidth mhz min max vertcl scan rate khz min max horiz scan rate khz dot pitch mm sugg list price street price both have brightness contrast h v positioning h v size h v convergence and color front panel and digital also a front panel degaussing control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under do you mean the viewsonic it uses a matsushita tube the computer shopper review faults it for having below average sharpness and for lacking some controls pincushioning degaussing convergence and color it was the lowest priced monitor in the test and did have good center to edge focus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mhz standard pc won t run windows in turbo mode i have a standard computer dx mhz eisa tower with mb ram a quantum mb hard drive and mb floppies and a colorado mb tape drive i also have a sound blaster pro and a com ethernet card c installed the machine is completely stable in non turbo mode in turbo mode windows for workgroups crashes or won t come up at all if windows does come up i get general protection faults and divide by zero system errors is there a problem with memory keeping up with the speed of the cpu o n these machines i have tried to reach standard computers but their phones have been disconnected does anyone know what happened to this company yamohs yet another mail order horror story i d prefer e mailed responses as i don t get to read this newsgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	headland video vramii k ver upgrade info needed i have a headland technologies video seven vramii board that only came with k at the time this was ok but i need info or help with upgrading this board to mbyte there are rows of pins over the vram chips i think for a piggyback board of vram i would like to hear from anyone that may be able to help me upgrade this board maybe someone from headland who maybe read ing this has one of these piggyback boards just laying around please please please does anyone know of where i could maybe buy the upgrade for this i would sure love to use this in x color mode but for the time being i can only get of the screen with the bottom part a white strip obviously because of the missing vram actually i m surprised it even works to this degree at all as a last resort i will wind up selling this board and probably be getting a mb et based dumb frame buffer this vramii was editors choice in the pc mag so if anyone has any info please email or as a last resort post to this group thanks in advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx the mhz external bus speed provides a hell for cache designs most of the dx boards have too slow caches that make them effectively dx s also as someone else pointed out local bus boards are better off at mhz bus speed the k internal cache allows the dx to be generally faster anyway segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need an esdi hdd for posessed system ahhhuuurrrrgggghhhh spinrite says sectors marked bad in the fat initially returned to active use new sectors marked bad following successive runs of spinrite i think i need a new esdi hdd controller i know that these two will work dtc adaptec b others that might work dtc ultra store wd v if you own one and will sell it cheaply i ll buy it thanks greg bishop gt a hydra gatech edu gt designing tommorow the night before with yesterday s technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hawk motherboard has anybody ever heard of hawk eisa vlb motherboards net computers international from computer shopper has the version w k cache for i m trying to decide between this motherboard and the nice motherboard thanks ps the hawk motherboard has eisa slots two of which are vlb the spec sounds identical to the nice tim m it cs nyu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price gkoh athena mit edu glenn koh writes then again maybe for the gateway system isn t too cheap i have a system from micron computers meg ram maxtor hd local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came to i sold the sx chip that came with it and bought a dx total price i think you got something wrong here you state that the system was a dx then say that you sold the sx chip that came with it this does not make sense scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re low emission monitors who besides nec hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov les hartzman writes does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how do they compare to necs quality and emission wise les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca les i am right now working on an mpr ii certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor it s x up to hz at that res and it got a good write up for image quality in a recent feb issue of pc magazine as far as i know very little fully matches a nec in image quality at least according to the mags i can t tell any difference between the two but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types there s vlf very low frequency and elf i think that s extremely low frequency the mpr ii standards set strict limits on both but many comapnies nec included according to one article i read i get a bunch of mags so it s hard for me to remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr ii compliant or mpr ii certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other so the nec probably has higher overall image quality i consis tently hear it rated as the best or close to the best but not as low emissions as the hitachi i like my image quality but for all i know you may be more discerning good luck mitch v kcbp ubvms cc buffalo edu oh yeah i got my hitachi superscan from insight for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway dx v update i just ordered my dx v system from gateway thanks for all the net discussions which helped me decide among all the vendors and options right now the dx v system includes mb of ram the mb upgrade used to cost an additional mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re low emission monitors who besides nec in article c yp c kt acsu buffalo edu v kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mitch writes i am right now working on an mpr ii certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor it s x up to hz at that res and it got a good write up for image quality in a recent feb issue of pc magazine as far as i know very little fully matches a nec in image quality at least according to the mags i can t tell any difference between the two but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types there s vlf very low frequency and elf i think that s extremely low frequency the mpr ii standards set strict limits on both but many comapnies nec included according to one article i read i get a bunch of mags so it s hard for me to remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr ii compliant or mpr ii certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other nanao s f series e g f i and t series e g t i monitors are mpr ii compliant according to my little pamphlet the t series monitors are also tco compliant whatever that is mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et w dbench due to the large amount of request for dbench of et w i finally can get a dbench v from a ftp site the dbench of et w in my cardex w card with mb dram has superscape benchmark of frames sec hope it will satisfy people curiosity of this et w performance what other benchmark program result you would want to know philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington it is all my opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in reply to johnn eskimo com s message of apr gmt newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp sys amiga hardware comp sys sun hardware subject re monitors nanao references c uw t hi eskimo com distribution text follows this line i have a nanao f on my ipx i prefer it to my sun trinitron at work with all those vertical jitters and the two horizontal shadowmask thingies i got it from one of the folks advertising in computer shopper et al for plus about shipping i bought a cable which goes from the sun s w connector to the monitors xrgbs for about from a macintosh mailorder shop relax technologies i d do it again happily chris shenton gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck i ve posted a couple of notes about encountering this problem based on some suggestions from mark aitchison university of canterbury new zealand and chris a larrieu cs wm edu i think that my problem is a screen saver that also outputs sound to my pc speaker i m still looking at some of the other screen savers that i use with a randomizer but this one definately caused the loss of several minutes over night but not the date this time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com card shows up as com with com s address and irq in article c x fe cie genesis nred ma us avinash genesis nred ma us writes i have an internal modem that i configure as com with irq but when i insert that card into my dos pc it shows up as com with irq and com s address e when i get into debug and dump the data at it shows the address e as belonging to com even though the modem should be at com this is a common misconception shared my many manufacturers programmers and users alike com for example is simply the third equipped comm port not necessarily the one with i o address e the bios just searches sequentially through a set of potential comm port addresses the first equipped port it finds will become com etc if you re playing by the rules you can t have a com unless you have a com equipped the set of standard whatever that means port addresses merely reflects the order in which the bios searches the i o address space in its search for serial ports so what you have is indeed com at the non standard address e were this address in the th table slot instead programs which query the bios to determine the number of installed comm ports would not find it as the field in the bios data area which contains this number would indicate that there are but comm ports installed frankly i don t know of a simgle program that would actually have a problem with this bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide in zenith okay anyone have experiences good or bad with replacing the mfm controller and drive with an ide controller and drive in a zenith i had heard some rumors about bus mastering problems on some cpu board revisions shamus mc bride tecslm sdc boeing com boeing computer services tecslm sdc atc boeing com uw beaver bcsaic sdc tecslm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what exactly is the ibm made slc or slc processor could someone please tell me if the slc and slc processors ibm is putting in their thinkpad s and other pc s is a real with a math coprocessor or if it is really some kludge that should not be called a at all thanks eric eric w braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte am ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted faults on ide drives i have a mb ide drive and am having a few problems i get data error on drive c messages when reading some files the problem is also steadily getting worse i have run some diagnostic software pctools v and it says that the drive is ok but it does have to retry some sectors and it briefly flashes up an error message which is too quick to read does anybody know of any cheap or free software which could mark these sectors as bad dos doesn t or preferably perform a low level format i have heard that the latter is possible on an ide technical answers would be appreciated it would be nice to be able to use the disk again i am running ms dos on an at clone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article edm wrs com edm wrs com ed mcclanahan writes jim johnson abcd houghton mi us jim johnson writes k speaking of cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money do these cpu fans also have heat sinks do you recommend using both on the same chip i e heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan if we are just talking about a cpu fan blowing directly on the cpu chip i can t see how heat sink grease is necessary or even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com i have a pc power and cooling fan and it is a heat sink with a built in fan that glues on top of the cpu even if the fan quits you still have the heat sink fins to aid cooling the glue of course is the type that has high thermal conductivity
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comdex atlanta ga info wanted i know this is the wrong newsgroup but i was wondering if anyone knows the date s of this year s comdex convention in atlanta ga or has it passed already e mail if possible thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tower without a fan i originally posted a complaint about how noisy my pc was i got several useful suggestions but was the most seductive run your pc in silence by removing the fan altogether two variables i always run my pc without the cover and i d be willing to attach a cpu cooler if that would make a difference should i try to run my pc without a fan i know it sounds like utter folly so i m asking has anyone done this succesfully or tragically you re answer may save my pc thanks alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	strange disk behaviour i have a with a western digital wd a hard drive this drive is cylinders with read write heads physically but logically it is cylinders with read write heads in the cmos setting i am instructed to set it to type ibm cyl read write heads the problem i was sent western digitals ispfmt low level program from the manufacturer and was instructed to run it on the hard drive with the cmos setting set to type this worked o k and i verified the disk using the same program i then reloaded dos which did a high level format again no errors no bad sectors etc but when i run norton speedisk or any other disk optimizer with the verify option set on i get error verifying sector nnnn where nnnn can be any number not the same all the time any ideas as to what is going on here would be appreciated thank you steve hamilton nbb dsacng dla mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx chips i have a dx motherboard in my pc that i d like to speed up i d rather not replace the whole motherboard instead i d like to know if i can use a dx mhz cpu the bios is late model ami circa and the system crystal is approx mhz my question is can i just replace the original mhz cpu with the new dx cpu if its possible will there be a need for extra cooling devices such as heatsinks and or muffin fans mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re spigot on lc iii in article apr aristo tau ac il isaaci ccsg tau ac il barash isaac writes a friend of mine has problems running spigot lc on an lc iii his configuration is spigot lc lc iii system video spigot extension i would appriciate if i can get any postitive negative experience with this setup somebody in comp multimedia was also having trouble using a spigot in his lc iii it turned out he needed the latest version of screenplay which fixed things lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook sleep init request someone asked me if i there existed an init that removes the dialog you re gonna disconnect all apletalk users or something like that when the powerbook falls asleep he said he was sure that such a thing existed and he thought it was freeware can anyone help me out with this btw where can i get switch a roo or something of the kind but schareware or freeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need a card for sony i recently made the mistake of purchasing a sony cpd monitor for my mac iici the monitor is very good however it seems that the iici does not support vga then why did you buy it you ask i am stupid i reply what i am looking for is a video card preferably bit which supports vga i am interested in any information i can get offers for the sale of applicable cards will also be considered thanks in advance jim pyke
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook serial ports hello i have a question or two about the serial ports for the powerbooks specifically the with system is there a difference between the serial ports on the powerbooks versus any other mac say plus or ii i have heard though not confirmed by apple that the serial ports have problems at high speeds i also heard that sys s new power manager fixes this problem allowing speeds just as any other serial port my particular use is that i have a evb board that i need to interface with my powerbook via the modem port at baud currently we are interfacing using mac pluses i set everything up just as in lab and nothing in fact the powerbook locks up can anyone help inform advise i would appreciate it i would prefer email since i don t read the news at all i will post a summary if enough response is generated thanks faisal m bhamani faceman ccwf cc utexas edu ps if this topic has been discussed already please excuse me and direct me to the appropriate places thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem ejbehr rs cmp ilstu edu eric behr writes just a quick summary of recent findings re high speed modems top three contenders seem to be at t paradyne zyxel and us robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can be had for under but i ignored it because i need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking you shouldn t have ignored the zyxel it can be purchased with a mac bundle which includes a hardware handshaking cable and faxstf software the bundle adds between and to the price of the modem depending on the supplier it is true that the modem has no mac specific docs but it doesn t require much tweaking aside from setting d in the init string to enable hardware handshaking for more information on the zyxel including sources look at various files on sumex aim stanford edu in info mac report disclaimer i have no affiliation with zyxel though i did buy a zyxel a u e modem
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix last week s macweek article by ric ford indicated that david ramsey s mac iix has been running nicely with a mac iici rom in it offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused by apple s bit system enabler does anyone know of a source for these roms is it okay for a remanufacturer to resell only rom chips from used machines i know that copies cannot be made but it seems to me that it would be okay to resell the original used rom after all reselling a used computer involves the sale of the rom anyway so what s the difference needless to say i m interested in purchasing such a rom what would be a reasonably price to offer morgan davis group internet mdavis crash cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ethernet card that uses a rose in apr csu edu au mantolov golum riv csu edu au michael antolovich writes in article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a rose extension hey what does the a rose extension do anyway newsgroups comp sys mac system from probulf informatik tu muenchen de frank probul subject re a rose with centris and quadra models organization technische universitaet muenchen germany date mon apr gmt a rose apple real time operating system environment this is a system extension for these nubus cards using the mcp macintosh coprocessor platform the mcp cards are nubus cards with a motorola processor and kb ram expandable to meg mcp is a development platform for hardware designers so they can use a card with an own processor and thus the main processor isn t needed for these cards currently the only cards i know are the apple tokenring card the new apple ethernet card the apple nubus serial card perhaps there are some third party cards but i don t know frank probul emanuelstr d munich germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university of technology department of computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix in article mdavis crash cts com mdavis crash cts com morgan davis writes last week s macweek article by ric ford indicated that david ramsey s mac iix has been running nicely with a mac iici rom in it offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused by apple s bit system enabler this would make me a bit suspect of mr ramsey s qualifications as a self styled expert in fact when i read about anybody using virtual memory regularly i kind of wonder yes one can sometimes get away with running a newer rom of the correct size obviously in an older machine but one should be prepared for problems if running software that checks for machine type rather than rom trap availability and then draws incorrect conclusions when special casing especially timing dependent and driver related stuff in this particular case i see no reason to go to the trouble of rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and does anyone know of a source for these roms sure buy a used iici motherboard call pre owned electronics shreve or other parts dealers see the back of computer shopper or one of the mac trades for phone numbers and ask for a price on a iici rom everything has a price if you happen to find somebody who salvaged a iici with a dead motherboard you might get a decent price there is probably a market for used mother boards as well so they might sell a rom anyway needless to say i m interested in purchasing such a rom what would be a reasonably price to offer ask for a quote and then try offering less pre owned and shreve have been known to dicker their ads in various trade magazines often list considerably different prices for the same items and their phone quotes tend to vary as well still i m not aware of any technical reason for upgrading the rom in a iix bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris font problems i recently got a centris on my desk it s a vast improvement on my previous machine a iisi however i ve encountered a problem with fonts entries in a filemaker database which looked fine when printed from my previous mac using system now look wierd spacing between characters has increased greatly causing lines to be truncated i m using plain and bold helvetica in various sizes the increase in character spacing seems to occur for all sizes and styles i m using a mixture of truetype and fixed size fonts exactly as on my iisi when things worked perfectly we ve managed to get similar behaviour using word apple uk adopted their usual friendly approach and told us to call our local dealer god help us any ideas dr pete edwards department of computing science king s college university of aberdeen tel aberdeen ab ue fax scotland email pedwards csd abdn ac uk artificial flowers pieces of plastic and metal crudely fashioned to bear a limited superficial resemblance to real flowers but with no credible attempt to match their internal complexity in terms of form function or behavior artificial intelligence really smart computers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa or lc hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article baa e c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu writes why no it is a little known fact that no macs have a cpu they are all connected via a cellular network to the cray supercomputer in apple s garage that s right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don t you know the only division at apple allowed to use the cray is the legal department gordon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for magneto optical drive advice i m currently trying to select which magneto optical drive to purchase i m primarily looking at mb drives although i might consider mb ones when looking through macworld and macuser ads the prices for the mb drives seem to range from just under for the dgr rem portable magic mb portable fujitsu or nudesign mb from macdirect to about for the fwb hammerdisk and mass microsystems datapak mo different drives use different mechanisms most fujitsu sony epson probably some others my problem is that after reading the nov macworld and apr macuser reviews of these drives i m still not sure what to get so i m asking if anyone has had good bad experiences with any mb m o drive or can shed some light on the wide range of prices is spending more really buying me much reliability of different drives compatibility between them or anything else i should probably know thanks john sasinowski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	personal lw ntr serial hookup can anyone tell me the procedure for hooking a personal laserwriter ntr serially to a mac the documentation says it can be done but i m not sure of the correct switch setting to use out of the given non appletalk switch options also will i need to install a new driver so that the chooser knows the printer is hooked up directly not networked thanks a lot ross
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article apr bmug org david a schnider bmug org writes the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i recall there being a conversation here that a running windows benchmarks at about the same speed as mhz in system i don t know if that is true but i would love to hear if anyone has any technical data on this david that seems about right i have a mac iisi with k cache card running system my roommate has a sx running windows and from what i ve seen my iisi is faster in some operations in others they are comparable but keep in mind i m strictly speaking of operations on the desktop level of windows and system not actual computational speed in other programs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks cam daly phone f internet cam athena mit edu memorial dr he who fights and runs away cambridge ma lives to nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need modem software recommendation i am planning on buying a modem and related software what are some good products out there that won t cost me a lot of money but will still do the job any help will be appreciated i am looking for something in the baud area kenneth kenneth david suzan internet kdsu ltd uhura cc rochester edu c p u box wrur fm rochester ny cast weatherline university of rochester rock from the reagan years pm f r i d a y s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	selling of powerbook s i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly phone f internet cam athena mit edu memorial dr he who fights and runs away cambridge ma lives to nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare david a schnider bmug org wrote the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i stuff deleted david even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga sure there are other considerations but it goes to show you how proper design from the beginning in hardware and software can give you great returns as well as showing you that if you don t have a marketing department to speak of no one will care how good your system is i m still happy with my ci but i don t understand why the performance is so bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn t of course dos and windows are nothin to write home about either oh well y all got worth for the price of peter pundy email jeff lab queensu ca i ve got no witty wisdom to share but have a nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking macs and a pc at work we have a small appletalk network with macs and couple of printers we also have a pc that has some specialized accounting software that we would like to operate from any of the macs we have soft pc and i have found that the software works just fine under it but i would like to have all of the data for the program reside at one place the pc hard disk so my question for you is actually questions is there a board for the pc that will allow you to hook into an appletalk network if is possible is there any software hardware combination that will allow me to mount the pc hard disk as a networked disk on the macs so i can use soft pc to run the application if or is impossible is there any other way to accomplish what i am after chris parrish university of oklahoma to share is to split cmparris essex ecn uoknor edu kmfdm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot and display the desktop but it is only a matter of time before it reboots again at times the frequency is as high as several times a minute i wonder if your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac or mabey those switches are bad and need replacing i wish i caught the original post but anyway the problem is that the plus s poor old power supply sometimes referred to as the analog sweep board is on its way out apart from a board swap bikkies to apple there s not much the average joe can do to fix it you can of course try and re adjust the voltage levels the v rail should be as close to v as you cn get it but this is more often than not a temporary fix a copy of larry pina s macntosh repair upgrade secrets is a worthwhile investment for the serious do it yaself er geoff peters mididoc cola flash pax tpa com au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare i guess the real question is who asked the original questions and why was it so broad are we talking pure processing power what kind of processing btw isolated from every other factor and influence in the system or are we shopping for a home computer based on the cpu specs yuck i just finished a project that involves real time processing of serial data and discovered that the programming interface assembly has a lot to do with the power of a cpu in a particular application if what you want to do is easy to code with the instruction set given then not only is it easy but it s cheap and quick if you have to fake things like resolving indirection without a lea instruction then your cycle count goes through the roof well let s not start a flame war about whose computer is better than whose the orginal question was about classifying micro processors having re read the entire thread i don t think much more can be said without getting down into specific proposed systems with important details given that s it for another cheers everyone peter pundy email jeff lab queensu ca i ve got no witty wisdom to share but have a nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat in article jartsu apr lk hp hut fi jartsu hut fi jartsu wrote hi there what is your recommendation for a good hard disk driver software for non apple drives i would mainly need it for a syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too fwb distributes hdt personal edition hdt hard drive toolkit which is what i own this is less fancy than the full version but good enough for what you and i want to do casa blanca offers drive but i m not that familiar with it i think that both drive and hdt pe can be had for around us i ve used silverlinging at work v and i like hdt pe much better imho it has a better interface and easier to understand any drive users james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in r d r baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes btw i ve heard that the system install cd can be used to boot the mac however my drive will not accept a cd caddy is the machine is off how can you boot with it then the supplemental manual that comes with the quadra explains it i don t have the manual in front of me but as i recall you insert the cd while the machine is running select restart from the special menu and then hold down a special sequence of keys to force it to boot from the cd instead of the hard disk i think the key combination is command option delete or command ctrl del
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re calling all mac gurus in article qvs t q f usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever does it make any difference which slots you put the simms in the vram simms go in the slots at the back closest to the power supply david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right in article apr tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay i will poke around in the u of m archives and see if i find something if anyone else finds this please post the location horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc u of m computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive or quiet and dead makes no difference to cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer component source inc phone number i would like to know the regular international phone number of a computer supplier called computer component source their free phone number is this number is no use to customers outside the us i wish to upgrade the power supply on a couple of mac plus computers and would like to make contact with computer component source bruce muschamp crop and food research srchbgm chv lincoln cri nz
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin out of imagewriter ii serial port hi could some kind soul please e mail me a copy of the pinout for the serial connector on an imagewriter ii printer we have one that we d like to hook up to a pc and it seems that nobody sells the proper cables anymore no problem i can make one but i need to know the pinout first thanks in advance joel kolstad kolstad cae wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	harddrive does anyone out there know how to add an additional internal hard drive to a mac iisi not to replace the already existing hardrive i was think of hooking to internal drive together or any other ways to add internal harddrive beside replacement i just don t wanadd an external harddrive i m open to any suggestions please response to the address below thanks internet yolo utkvx utk edu bitnet yolo utkvx
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right in article r p r gv umcc umcc umich edu chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu shawn fitzgerald wrote in article apr tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay i will poke around in the u of m archives and see if i find something if anyone else finds this please post the location i think i found what your looking for on ftp apple com in the dts mac sys soft video directory and is called virtual monitor switch hope this helps charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial pinout to connect to pc sorry this must be a faq but it s a quick fix that i need to take care of before a demo in less than hours from now couldn t think of a better place for a rapid answer than comp sys mac hardware i need to connect the serial a of a compac pc to the printer port of a mac iici does anyone have handy the pin pin routing for the cable that would allow this connection the serial port on the compaq is a male db how would this map to the din of the mac serial i tried one of those really short femaledb maledin cables that apple sold as adaptors to plug in macintosh serial peripherals from the pre macplus era this cable didn t do it do i need a null modem adaptor as well on the db side of things i just need to be able to map the data tx and rx pins correctly thanks kindly atau tanaka tanaka ircam fr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do i expand ram on a plus i have a mac plus with mb ram i have just bought an extra mb so that i can have the max mb ram that a plus supports however i can t get it to boot after i install the extra simms instead i get a sad mac sorry but i can t remember the code looking at the motherboard i can see that resistors have been snipped off where it says kb path row i assume that was done when the first mb simms were added so my question is are there any other resistors that need snipping or do i have bum simms which need to be exchanged any and all advice will be appreciated chris gatenby gatenb mrisun med yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot well this threads been going long enough i ll add a diferent twist i found that the constant rebooting was due to overheating we had added mb ram and were operating in a non ac environment adding an external cooling fan fixed it right up over a year ago george jefferson george mech seas upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pc logitec hand scan on mac i have a logitech grays hand scanner from a pc i m wondering if anyone has been successful in connecting the scanner to a mac it has the same connector and is a serial device on the pc i can imagine the pins coniguration would need to changeed but i m not sure if the signal levels would be correct and if the mac s w would work with it of course the manuals say nothing about the interface connector layout or anything h w ish any ideas thanx steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction in article r a vinnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks it already happened as far as i know i got some email about three weeks ago saying it was coming and sure enough a week after that the duos dropped in price i think the duo is now around us xx the educational prices have dropped and i imagine others as well but i haven t really checked around since i boycott the local necrocenter for reasons that extend over the past years jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip in article c syk js ie utoronto ca andy ie utoronto ca andy sun writes hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax i believe the fpu on the lciii is always supposed to go on the logic board not in the pds board i have heard of crashing problems with pds based fpus on the lciii asante may have fixed them but why bother why bother building an lciii card with an fpu anyway the extra circuitry gives the card one more chance to fail i say fpu on main logic board in socket ethernet alone on pds card in slot mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction in article r a vinnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly wrote someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes local la stores have already reduced prices by on most duo configurations although apple dropped the list price by dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit on lcii is there any third party video ram adapter for vewing bit color on lcii i heard that apple is selling it aroung please e mail me thanks young youyj mace cc purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii in article apr microsoft com v cckch microsoft com kenneth charlton writes apple dealerships once had kits to replace the soldered in batteries with a battery holder real easy to install but it does require some soldering yes points in really big holes which are fairly clear of most of the other stuff on the board if you can replace the battery you can install the battery holder matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do you use dat tape backup i have access to a dec tlz dec dat tape backup what do i need to interface my se to the tape backup the tape backup is a scsi will norton utilities be sufficient to interface the two jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re selling of powerbook s in article r aaainnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago i bought a pb with external floppy appletalk remote access a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition used for us i considered it a very good buy and am very cosy with my little baby now murray murray m altheim ils ont l orteil de bouc d un chevreil l oreille instructional consultant la corne d un chamois la face vermeille csu sacramento comme un rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans un carrefour ou pres d une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article r d r baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom my cd external just arrived has plus cinderella game demo derek pinghua pinghua young department of economics pinghua econ berkeley edu university of california at berkeley pinghua econ ucbcmsa bitnet berkeley california u s a c z k sv sq co qnf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dat drives kelly roy heth kheth uhunix uhcc hawaii edu wrote hey i m about to purchase a dat drive does anyone know which mail order vendors offer dat drives with hp s mechanism what other mechanism is available out there good bad points we bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly so it didn t work at first and the software they shipped with it was incompatable with the drive it was the new compression model and worst of all when i opened the drive up to fiddle with the jumpers i found the inside of the case covered with metal filings sorry to shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes in the case they forgot to clean it before putting the drive in this was a hp drive by the way and is now working fine knock on wood no thanks to relax technologies hey your mileage may vary but let me suggest that you not buy from relax technologies even though their prices are usually about the lowest dave dave schwarze schwarze delphi nosc mil or next mail schwarze isenext saic com opinions expressed are just that
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac lc for sale for sale apple macintosh lc mb ram mb hdd fdd applecolor hi res rgb monitor keyboard mouse microphone kensington masterpiece mac ii running system all documentation and manuals symantec greatworks mac tools deluxe loaded on hdd all disks and manuals included all hardware in mint condition used a total of minutes there is absolutely nothing wrong with this system i just can t get used to a mac after using a pc shipping costs non negotiable also as an option only to the person who purchases the above apple stylewriter printer with accessory kit brand new never used in factory sealed carton shipping costs reply via e mail to david morgan hal k ann arbor mi us and leave phone number fast or call hr voice mail faster serious inquiries only please first come first served this ad was originally posted to this conference a couple of weeks ago but the first buyer couldn t finance the purchase and i accidentally killed all other replies sorry hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii logic board re work i purchased an lciii recently and had heard a bit about a re work of the logic board i opened mine up and found the same re work with a small chip glued to the board and a couple of green wires running from it to two other chips i d like to know more about it could anyone with any or all of the following information please post it thanks a bunch what does the re work accomplish i e what does it fix what are the technical details of the re work i m looking for things such as the purpose of the chips with the new wires connected and the pin outs for those chips is a board with the re work any different functionally from one without could the re worked boards be incompatible with future releases of the operating system and finally should i even be concerned about any of this keith folsom folsom cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	is this a swim or a iwm it used to live in a se and is marked and the roms that go with it are is this the solution to the person who wants to upgrade to fdhd cheers mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter ii problem urgent help needed daughter has se and imagewriter ii worked well until yesterday now when she tries to print from macwrite ii or acta the printing message comes on but not printing bought new cable still no printing moved cable to modem port still no printing i m a dos person and don t know where to begin are there diagnostics for a mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also horton what sps mot com david horton writes bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation as a data point i m using a centris with the apple monitor and do not have these problems i can produce similar artifacts i am using a centris with an apple monitor i got the cd configuration so there is on board ethernet and megabyte of video ram the effect only occurs in color and grey modes any vertical scrolling operation whether with a scrollbar or say using vi and inserting lines will produce a scattering of horizontal flickering lines on the screen they do not persist each is visible for perhaps one refresh and then that part of the screen is back as usual they seem to always start at or about the th pixel from the left and are maybe pixels wide this is certainly not preventing me from using my macintosh but it does seem to be a sign of something perhaps grounded incorrectly in the video circuitry i went ahead and called the apple customer assistance center at or more direct the person who answered was polite i also took the chance to complain about my mouse button sticking and about the mac hanging on boot after a hard killed macsbug crash which left a cd in the drive i had to play with a paperclip for about minutes to get thing to eject after which the mac booted fine garth dickie dickie math wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc ii slowdowns i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace these lc iis have mb ram k vram and a quantum lp s hd installed i have reformatted the drive with hard disk toolkit and it gives a very respectable overall rating to this drive so it s not the drive i have reinstalled system ms word a ms works and so on all from the master disks in short i have done everything i can think of in software i am not a hardware hacker though i pop cases fairly often but nothing works the problem is intermittent and unpredictable the mouse always moves smoothly floppies always run at the same speed but occasionally for about hours at a time a machine will run like it was running on a mhz not a mhz it is very frustrating and makes it nearly unusable it does seem to worsen with increasing disk activity has anyone encountered this problem before has anyone got any ideas they would be much appreciated andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system l y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	check your purchase was re dat drives schwarze delphi nosc mil david schwarze writes we bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly so it didn t work at first and the software they shipped with it was incompatable with the drive it was the new compression model and worst of all when i opened the drive up to fiddle with the jumpers i found the inside of the case covered with metal filings sorry to shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes in the case they forgot to clean it before putting the drive in this was a hp drive by the way and is now working fine knock on wood no thanks to relax technologies i have found that you should observe the following with almost all new equipment check for warrany tape if none carefully open unit inspect for loose wires jumpers screws and other trash clean up these manufacturing mistakes now power up the unit and check it out i can t think of how many things i ve bought that weren t okay right out of the box due to sloppy qc jonathan ps this goes for any manufacturer i m not picking on anyone internet musjndx gsusgi gsu edu fidonet jonathan deitch jdeitch gisatl fidonet org bellnet atlanta play pinball don t panic i hate it when i can t trust my own technology thrills chills magic prizes hurricane geordi laforge gene roddenberry isaac asimov jim henson dr seuss mel blanc sigh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re system l lines y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs nice train wait this is mac hardware does it have a mac in it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer repairs does anyone out there know where some one can become educated in the art of repairing macintosh computers also how does one gain the prestige of being refered to as a authorized apple service person has anyone out there actually done any of this or maybe even know someone who did i would appreciate any and all comments on this subject ben roy internet br a american edu pcs poor college student
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi i ran speedometer s tests all of them on my iisi first with the k cache enabled then with the cache disabled i put both runs in this uuencoded machine record the numbers favor the cache mostly for benchmarks with a lot of memory throughput eric stadtherr help room consultant durham storms sage with a smile upon my face home ames ia i never want to leave this place gnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system on a macintosh iifx cannot run multifinder beeps my friend has a macintosh iifx on which he is running system not enough memory yet to run sys adequately and he noticed that when he tries to use multifinder on this machine the machine will beep every few seconds incessantly nonstop now this friend has a tendency to install things on his machine rather haphazardly but he did rebuild his system from scratch and it still occurs does this problem sound familiar at all to anyone for all i know the problem is caused by something really obscure but if this is a known simple thing yeah right that someone is familiar with like system multifinder doesn t run on a mac iifx or if someone here knows what he should be looking for please send e mail either to me or to him smh vaxf acdnj itt com thanx in advance digging in the dirt stay with me i need support digging in the dirt find the places i got hurt rich rosen open up the places i got hurt rlr panix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq archive name macintosh general faq version last modified april copyright elliotte harold changes where can i ftp macintosh software i added the ftp site anl anl fr what is bin hqx cpt image etc disk doubler will decode packit archives binhex will decode macbinary files not stuffit files as the last version erroneously indicated i added the question how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc comp sys mac faq part an introduction to the macintosh newsgroups i introduction how do i use this document what other information is available which newsgroup should i post to someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen megabytes on their iicx shouldn t i display my knowledge to the world by posting the seventeenth response to their question ii ftp where can i ftp macintosh software can i get shareware by e mail where can i find application x can someone mail me application x what is bin hqx cpt image etc how can i get binhex stuffit etc how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc iii troubleshooting what to do when things go wrong identify the problem read the read me file check for viruses reinstall the application and all its support files reinstall the system software isolate the problem contact technical support iv preventive maintenance trash unneeded files reevaluate your extensions rebuild the desktop zap the pram and reset the clock resize the system heap reinstall the system software disk utilities backing up disk defragmentation reformatting and partitioning your hard disk other faq lists currently available b comp sys mac system i memory why is my system using so much memory what is mode the bit enabler do i need them cache and carry how much memory should i allot to my cache ii system software why does apple charge for system what does system give me for my that system doesn t where can i get system how can i use system on a system only mac non us scripts and systems what is system tuneup do i need it why do my da s disappear when i turn on multifinder do i need system how can i get system on k disks iii hard disks filesharing and the file system help my folder disappeared why can t i throw this folder away why can t i share my removable drive why can t i eject this syquest cartridge cd rom etc why can t i rename my hard disk iv miscellaneous what does system error xxx mean what is a type error what is a rose easy access or one answer many questions c comp sys mac misc i viruses help i have a virus reporting new viruses ii printing and postscript how do i make a postscript file how do i print a postscript file why won t my postscript file print on my mainframe s printer why are my postscript files so big how can i print postscript on a non postscript printer how do i make my imagewriter ii print in color why doesn t printmonitor work with the imagewriter why did my document change when i printed it how can i preview a postscript file how do i edit a postscript file iii dos and the mac how can i move files between a mac and a pc how can i translate files to a dos format should i buy softpc or a real pc iv security how can i prevent users from changing the contents of a folder how can i password protect my mac v no particular place to go miscellaneous miscellanea are there any good books about the mac how do i take a picture of the screen how do i use a picture for my desktop can i replace the welcome to macintosh box with a picture what is autodoubler spacesaver more disk space are they safe how do they compare to timestwo stacker and edisk where did my icons go where can i find a user group this work is copyright by elliotte m harold permission is hereby granted to distribute this unmodified document provided that no fee in excess of normal on line charges is required for such distribution portions of this document may be extracted and quoted free of charge and without necessity of citation in normal on line communication provided only that said quotes are not represented as the correspondent s original work permission for quotation of this document in printed material and edited on line communication such as the info mac digest and tidbits is given subject to normal citation procedures i e you have to say where you got it disclaimer i do my best to ensure that information contained in this document is current and accurate but i can accept no responsibility for actions resulting from information contained herein this document is provided as is and with no warranty of any kind corrections and suggestions should be addressed to erh tesla njit edu apple macintosh laserwriter imagewriter finder hypercard and multifinder are registered trademarks and powerbook is a trademark of apple computer inc linotronic is a registered trademark of linotype hell ag inc postscript is a registered trademark and illustrator and photoshop are trademarks of adobe systems inc microsoft is a registered trademark of microsoft corporation pagemaker is a registered trademark of aldus corp autodoubler and diskdoubler are trademarks of fifth generation systems inc stuffit and stuffit deluxe are trademarks of raymond lau and aladdin systems inc stuffit spacesaver is a trademark of aladdin systems inc more disk space is a trademark of alysis software corporation timestwo is a trademark of golden triangle computers inc unix is a registered trademark of at t all other tradenames are trademarks of their respective manufacturers this is the first part of the this faq the second part is posted to comp sys mac system and features many questions about system software the third part is posted every two weeks in comp sys mac misc tables of contents for those two pieces are included above please familiarize yourself with all three sections of this document before posting all pieces are available for anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers macintosh except for this introductory faq which appears in multiple newsgroups and is stored as general faq z the name of each file has the format of the last part of the group name followed by faq z e g the faq for comp sys mac system is stored as system faq z and the faq for comp sys mac misc is stored as misc faq z rtfm stores files as compressed z binary files if you leave off the z at the end of the file name when getting the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you you can also have these files mailed to you by sending an e mail message to mail server rtfm mit edu with the line send pub usenet news answers macintosh name in the body text where name is the name of the file you want as specified above e g general faq you can also send this server a message with the subject help for more detailed instructions i have a question congratulations you ve come to the right place usenet is a wonderful resource for information ranging from basic questions how do i lock a floppy disk to queries that would make steve jobs himself run screaming from the room in terror i used resedit to remove resources init wdef and nvir from my system file and used the hex editor to add code string a b as a patch to the sfgetfile routine so the standard file dialog box would be a nice shade of mauve everything worked fine until i installed supercdevblaster and now when i use the aldus driver to print from pagemaker d to a linotronic my system hangs p s i m running system on a powerbook since the macintosh newsgroups are medium to high volume we ask that you first peruse this faq list including at least the table of contents for the other pieces of it check any other relevant on line resources listed below in question especially the faq lists for the other macintosh newsgroups and rtfm read the friendly manual before posting your question we realize that you are personally incensed that the system is taking up fourteen of your newly installed twenty megs of ram but this question has already made its way around the world three hundred times before and it s developing tired feet finally before posting to any newsgroup macintosh or otherwise please familiarize yourself with the basic etiquette of usenet as described in the newsgroup news announce newusers how do i use this document where can i get it comp sys mac faq is currently divided into multiple pieces a general introduction which you re reading now and specific lists for the newsgroups comp sys mac system and comp sys mac misc faq lists for comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac apps and comp sys mac hardware are in development when ready each part will be available in its respective newsgroup all pieces are available via anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu in the pub usenet news answers macintosh directory except for this document itself which is named general faq z the pieces are named as per the last part of the newsgroup they cover followed by faq e g system faq z misc faq z the z means the file is stored compressed so you ll need to ftp it in binary mode and use either maccompress stuffit deluxe or the unix uncompress command to decompress it however if you leave off the z extension when you get the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you this introductory document is posted to all of the concerned newsgroups the tables of contents for each of the specific faq lists are at the beginning of this file so you should be able to get at least some idea whether your question is answered anywhere else in the faq even if you don t have the other parts at hand it s not always obvious especially to newcomers where a particular question or comment should be posted please familiarize yourself with the faq lists in all the major macintosh newsgroups before posting in any of them which questions appear in which faqs can serve as a basic guide to what posts belong where to jump to a particular question search for section number question number enclosed in parentheses for example to find where can i ftp macintosh software search for the string to jump to a section instead of a question use a zero for the question number what other information is available comp sys mac faq provides short answers to a number of frequently asked questions appropriate for the usenet newsgroup comp sys mac misc and comp sys mac system four other files are worthy of particular note daryl spitzer maintains a faq list covering macintosh programming for the newsgroup comp sys mac programmer it s posted to that group weekly and available for anonymous ftp from ftp cs uoregon in pub mac eric rosen maintains a frequently asked questions list for comp sys mac comm available in that newsgroup and from rascal ics utexas edu in mac faq where the file you re reading now is also irregularly archived this list answers many frequently asked questions about networking unix and the mac telecommunications and foreign file formats norm walsh has compiled an excellent faq for comp fonts that answers a lot of questions about the various kinds of fonts and cross platform conversion and printing it s available in comp fonts or by ftp from ibis cs umass edu in pub norm comp fonts faq finally jim jagielski maintains a faq for comp unix aux covering apple s unix environment a ux it s posted every to weeks in comp unix aux and news answers it s available for anonymous ftp at jagubox gsfc nasa gov which newsgroup should i post to there are no stupid questions but there are misplaced ones you wouldn t ask your english teacher how to do the definite integral of ln x between zero and one would you so don t ask the programmer newsgroup why your system is so slow when microsoft word is in the background ignorance of basic netiquette is not an excuse if you want people to help you you need to learn their ways of communicating posting questions to the proper newsgroup will fill your mailbox with pearls of wisdom and maybe a few rotten oysters too posting to the wrong newsgroup often engenders a thundering silence for instance the most common and glaring mispost one that seems as incongruous to dwellers in the macintosh regions of usenet as would a purple elephant to aleuts in the arctic asking a question about networking anywhere except comp sys mac comm normally produces no useful responses posting the same question to comp sys mac comm ensures that your post is read and considered by dozens of experienced network administrators and not a few network software designers please post to exactly one newsgroup do not cross post if a question isn t important enough for you to take the extra minute to figure out where it properly belongs it s not important enough for several thousand people to spend their time reading for the same reason comp sys mac misc should not be used as a catch all newsgroup the breakdown of questions between different newsgroups in this document can also serve as a reasonable guide to what belongs where specifically questions about productivity applications software you bought your macintosh to run not software you bought to make your macintosh run better should go to comp sys mac apps unless the application is covered in a more specific newsgroup communications programs games hypercard compilers and databases all have more topical comp sys mac newsgroups post questions about non communications hardware including questions about what software is necessary to make particular hardware work to comp sys mac hardware questions about macos system software belong in comp sys mac system questions about utilities and extensions normally belong in comp sys mac misc questions about a ux go to comp unix aux detailed questions about appletalk belong in comp protocols appletalk direct questions about hypercard to comp sys mac hypercard non hypercard programming questions and questions about development environments should go to comp sys mac programmer resedit questions may be posted either to comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system or comp sys mac programmer but generally the netters who inhabit the darker recesses of comp sys mac programmer are considerably more practiced at the art of resource hacking a general exception to the above rules is that any very technical question about an application that actually begins to delve into the how s of a program as well as the what s recent example how does writenow which is written entirely in assembly compare to other word processors written in high level languages might be better addressed to the programmer newsgroup for sale and want to buy posts should go to comp sys mac wanted and misc forsale computers mac only we understand that you re desperate to sell your upgraded k mac to get the for a powerbook but trust me anyone who wants to buy it will be reading comp sys mac wanted political and religious questions the mac is better than windows is not is too is not is too hey how bout the amiga what about it is not is too belong in comp sys mac advocacy anything not specifically mentioned above probably belongs in comp sys mac misc finally don t be so provincial as to consider only the comp sys mac newsgroups the appropriate forums for your questions many questions about modems in comp sys mac comm are much more thoroughly discussed in comp dcom modems questions about mac midi are often better handled in comp music even though it s not a macintosh specific newsgroup shop around usenet s a big place and not everything relevant to the macintosh happens in comp sys mac someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen of their twenty megabytes of ram shouldn t i put my brilliance and wit on display for the world by posting the seventeenth response no frequent answers are just as boring and uninteresting as frequent questions unless you really have something new to add to the traditional answers such as the recent discovery that fonts in system could eat memory private e mail is a much better medium for answering common questions like this one you might want to add a mention of this faq in your e mail response and a polite suggestion that your correspondent read it before posting future questions i do read all the newsgroups covered here and have written a small script in microphone ii that lets me send pwfaq s people with frequently asked questions the section of this document that answers their question with just the click of a button so please don t feel obligated to respond to someone who cares so little about the answer to their question they can t be troubled to read the faq list to get it ftp where can i ftp mac software the three major north american internet archives of shareware freeware and demo software are sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu and wuarchive wustl edu which mirrors the other two sites and several others wuarchive often holds on to files after other sites remove them for space concerns and still has files that were deleted from the formerly important site rascal ics utexas edu rascal was notable for storing its files in macbinary format rather than the less efficient binhex format common at the other archives unless otherwise noted shareware and freeware mentioned in this document should be available at the above sites to keep traffic on the internet manageable scandinavians should try connecting to ftp funet fi ftp lth se or sics se instead those in the u k should look first at src doc ic ac uk continental europeans can try nic switch ch ezinfo ethz ch and anl anl fr australian users should try to find what they want at archie au which mirrors info mac and mac archive japanese users will find sumex mirrored at ftp u tokyo ac jp a fourth very important site is ftp apple com this is apple s semi official repository for system software developer tools source code technical notes and other things that come more or less straight from apple s mouth some material at this site may not be distributed outside the u s or by other sites that don t have an official license to distribute apple system software please read the various readme documents available at ftp apple com for the detailed info if you re connecting from outside the u s or if you wish to redistribute material you find here can i get shareware by e mail the info mac archives at sumex aim are available by e mail from listserv ricevm bitnet alternately listserv ricevm rice edu the listserver responds to the commands macarch help macarch index and macarch get filename mac archive files are available from mac mac archive umich edu send it a message containing the words help and index no quotes on the first two lines of your message for instructions on getting started and a list of the files you may request you can retrieve files from other sites by using the server at ftpmail decwrl dec com for details send it a message with just the text help no quotes where can i find application x if you can t find what you re looking for at one of the above sites try telnetting to your nearest archie server or sending it an e mail message addressed to archie with the subject help archie servers are located at archie rutgers edu america archie mcgill ca the original archie server in canada archie au australia archie funet fi scandinavia and archie doc ic ac uk the u k and the continent these sites index the tens of thousands of files available for anonymous ftp login as archie no password is needed and type prog filename to find what you re looking for or type help for more detailed instructions for instance you would type prog disinfectant to search for a convenient ftp site for disinfectant if the initial search fails to turn up the file you want try variations on and substrings of the name for instance if you didn t find disinfectant with prog disinfectant you might try prog disi instead substring searches often hide the gold in a pile of dross to avoid many erroneous matches add a hqx to the end of the substring e g prog disi hqx most mac software available on the net ends in hqx but almost no unix or pc software does please check the above archives and archie personally before asking where you can find a particular piece of shareware if you follow the above advice you should almost never have to ask the net where to find a particular piece of software can someone mail me application x no nor will anyone mail you a part of a file from comp binaries mac that was corrupt or missed at your site please refer to the first questions in this section to find out about anonymous ftp archie and automatic e mail servers what is bin hqx cpt etc most files available by ftp are modified twice to allow them to more easily pass through foreign computer systems first they re compressed to make them faster to download and then they re translated to either a binhex hqx or macbinary bin format that other computers can digest the macintosh uses a special two fork filing system that chokes most other computers binhex files are bit ascii text files while macbinary files are pure bit binary data that must always be transferred using a binary protocol how a file has been translated and compressed for transmission is indicated by its suffix normally a file will have a name something like filename xxx yyy xxx indicates how it was compressed and yyy indicates how it was translated to use a file you ve ftp d and downloaded to your mac you ll need to reverse the process most files you get from the net require a two step decoding process first change the binhex hqx or macbinary bin file to a double clickable macintosh file then decompress it which programs decode which file types is covered in the table below also note that most macintosh telecommunications programs will automatically convert macbinary files to regular macintosh files as they are downloaded suffix sit cpt hqx bin pit z image dd zip uu tar extractors stuffit x x x x x compact pro x x packit x uutool x maccompress x suntar x x x x binhex x binhex x diskdoubler x x unzip x diskcopy x macutil x x x x a few notes on the decompressors stuffit is a family of products that use several different compression schemes the freeware stuffit expander will unstuff all of them versions of stuffit earlier than stuffit stuffit classic unstuffit and stuffit deluxe and will not unstuff the increasing number of files stuffed by stuffit you need to get a more recent version of stuffit or stuffit expander stuffit lite and deluxe consistently makes smaller archives than any other macintosh compression utility to allow maximum space for files on the various ftp sites and to keep net bandwidth down please compress all files you send to anonymous ftp sites with stuffit uutool maccompress and suntar handle the popular unix formats of uuencode uu compress z and tar tar respectively the unix versions are often more robust than the mac products so use them instead when that s an option translators that allow stuffit lite to expand uuencoded and tar files are also available by anonymous ftp macutil is dik winter s package of unix utilities to decompress and debinhex files on a workstation before downloading them to a mac since unix stores files differently than does the mac macutil creates macbinary bin files which should be automatically converted on download it can t decompress everything in particular it can t decompress the new stuffit archives however if you need only one or two files out of an archive for instance if you want to read the readme to find out if a program does what you need it to do before you download all of it macutil is indispensable it can be found at sumex aim in the info mac unix directory a few notes on the compression formats bin these are macbinary files always use a binary file transfer protocol when transferring them never ascii or text most files on the net are stored as hqx instead only rascal stores most of its files in bin format most communications programs such as zterm and mackermit are capable of translating macbinary files on the fly as they download if they know in advance they ll be downloading macbinary files image this format is normally used only for system software so that on line users can download files that can easily be converted into exact copies of the installer floppies instead of using diskcopy to restore the images to floppies you can use steve christensen s freeware utility mountimage to treat the images on your hard disk as actual floppies inserted in a floppy drive mountimage has a reputation for being buggy so you should have some blank floppies and a copy of diskcopy handy just in case sea x x sea files don t merit a position in the above table because they re self extracting they may have been created with compact pro stuffit or even diskdoubler but all should be capable of decompressing themselves when double clicked for some unknown reason alysis has chosen not to use this industry standard designation for self extracting archives created with their payware products superdisk and more disk space instead they append either x or x to self extracting archives how can i get binhex stuffit etc by far the easiest way to get these programs is to ask a human being to copy them onto a floppy for you if you re at a university there s absolutely no excuse for not finding someone to give you a copy and if you re anywhere less remote than mcmurdo sound chances are very good that someone at a computer center dealership or user group can provide you with a copy of stuffit once you have stuffit any version you don t need binhex if you re such a computer geek that the thought of actually asking a living breathing human being instead of a computer terminal for something turns you into a quivering mass of protoplasmic jelly you can probably download a working copy of stuffit from a local bulletin board system if you have religious objections to software gotten by any means other than anonymous ftp then i suppose i ll mention that you can in fact ftp a working copy of stuffit though this is by far the hardest way to get it ftp to wuarchive wustl edu and login type the word binary hit return type cd mirrors rascal ics utexas edu compression and hit return then get stuffit expander sea bin and hit return of course it s always possible that by the time you read this stuffit expander will have been updated and the name changed so if this fails look for something similar if you ve ftp d straight onto your mac you should now have a self extracting archive which will produce a working copy of stuffit expander when double clicked if you ve ftp d to your mainframe or unix account first you still need to use a modem program to download it to your mac just make sure that the mac is receiving in macbinary mode and the mainframe is sending in binary mode if you need more details on the last step consult the faq list for comp sys mac comm and the manuals for both your mainframe and macintosh telecommunications software how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc you can t there is absolutely no way to get an executable macintosh file from an ftp site onto a pc and then onto your mac without some software obtained by means other than anonymous ftp you must beg borrow or steal the necessary software such as binhex or stuffit lite from another person i realize this may terrify those among you who haven t left your parents basement since you got an apple ii in but eventually you re going to need to link up with some human being other than your mother though i suppose if you re this much of a nerd you could send your mother out to get it for you while you re gathering your nerves for a venture into the strange and terrifying world of daylight please don t bother the net by asking this question again there simply is no way to move executable macintosh programs from a pc or other non macintosh computer onto a mac without software that is not bundled with most macs troubleshooting what to do before posting when things go wrong while the various faq lists cover a lot of specific problems there are far more problems that aren t covered here these are a few basic techniques you should follow before asking for help you should probably also perform the ten step preventative maintenance routine described in section four especially rebuilding the desktop and resizing the system heap following these steps may or may not solve your problem but it will at least make it easier for others to recommend solutions to you identify the problem microsoft word is crashing doesn t say much what were you doing when it crashed can you repeat the actions that lead to the crash the more information you provide about the actions preceding the crash the more likely it is someone can help you the more precisely you ve identified the problem and the actions preceding it step the easier it will be to tell if the following steps fix the problem for example sometimes quarkxpress crashes with a coprocessor not installed error is not nearly as helpful as quarkxpress crashes when i link two text boxes on a master page when copies of those text boxes already contain text the former will leave you wondering whether the bug remains after a given step the latter lets you go right to the problem and see if it s still there or not read the read me file many companies include a list of known incompatibilities and bugs in their read me files often these aren t documented in the manual read any read me files to see if any of the problems sound familiar check for viruses run disinfectant or another anti viral across your disk virus infections are rarer than most people think but they do occur and they do cause all sorts of weird problems when they do reinstall the application and all its support files for half a dozen reasons external magnetic fields improperly written software the alignment of the planets a file on a disk may not contain the data it s supposed to contain this can cause all types of unexplained unusual behavior restoring from original masters will normally fix this reinstall the system software bits are even more likely to get twiddled in the system file than in the application and the effects can be just as disastrous see question for a detailed procedure for performing a clean reinstall if the problem continues to occur after you ve taken these steps chances are you ve found either a conflict between your application and some other software or a genuine bug in the program so it s time to isolate the problem you need to find the minimal system on which the problem will assert itself here are the basic steps of isolating the cause of a system or application crash a run only one application at a time occasionally applications do conflict with each other if the problem does not manifest itself without other applications running simultaneously you can begin launching other applications until you find the one that causes the crash b if you re running system turn off multifinder if you re running system allot as much memory to the application as you can afford sometimes programs just need more memory especially when performing complicated operations c if you re running system turn off virtual memory and bit addressing there s still an awful lot of system hostile software out there including some from companies that really have no excuse can you say microsoft word boys and girls i knew you could some of this software only expresses its incompatibilities when certain uncommon actions are taken d boot from a virgin system floppy if the problem disappears you likely have an init conflict you need to progressively remove extensions until the problem vanishes use a little common sense when choosing the first extensions to remove if the problem occurs when you try to open a file remove any inits that mess with the standard file open procedure such as super boomerang first if the problem remains after the obvious candidates have been eliminated either remove the remaining extensions one at a time or if you have a lot of them perform a binary search by removing half of the extensions at a time once the problem disappears add half of the most recently removed set back continue until you ve narrowed the conflict down to one extension when you think you ve found the offending init restart with only that init enabled just to make sure that it and it alone is indeed causing the problem contact technical support by now you should have a very good idea of when where and why the conflict occurs if a tech support number is available for the software call it if you re lucky the company will have a work around or fix available if not perhaps they ll at least add the bug to their database of problems to be fixed in the next release preventive maintenance you wouldn t drive your car miles without giving it a tune up a computer is no different regular tune ups avoid a lot of problems although there are mac mechanics who ll be happy to charge you or more for the equivalent of an oil change there s no reason you can t change it yourself the following nine step program should be performed about every three months trash unneeded files many of the operations that follow will run faster and more smoothly the more free disk space there is to work with so spend a little time cleaning up your hard disk if you re at all like me you ll find several megabytes worth of preferences files for applications you no longer have archives of software you ve dearchived shareware you tried out and didn t like announcements for events that have come and gone and many other files you no longer need if you re running system you may also have several more megabytes in your trash can alone throw them away and empty the trash rethink your extensions some macintoshes attract inits like a new suit attracts rain seriously consider whether you actually need every extension in your collection if you don t use the functionality of an extension at least every fifth time you boot up you re probably better off not storing it in your system folder where it only takes up memory destabilizes your system and slows down every startup for instance if you only read pc disks once a month there s no need to keep accesspc loaded all the time cutting back on your extension habit can really help avoid crashes rebuild the desktop the desktop file database holds all the information necessary to associate each file with the application that created it it lets the system know what application should be launched when you open a given file and what icons it should display where depending on its size each application has one or more representatives in the desktop file as applications and files move on and off your hard disk the desktop file can be become bloated and corrupt think of it as a congress for your mac every so often it s necessary to throw the bums out and start with a clean slate fortunately it s easier to rebuild the desktop than to defeat an incumbent one warning rebuilding the desktop will erase all comments you ve stored in the get info boxes under system maurice volaski s freeware init commentkeeper will retain those comments across a rebuild commentkeeper also works with system but only if apple s desktop manager extension is also installed to rebuild the desktop restart your mac and as your extensions finish loading depress the command and option keys you ll be presented with a dialog box asking if you want to rebuild the desktop and warning you that this could take a few minutes click ok it will take more than a few minutes the more files you have the longer it will take if you re running system you may want to turn off multifinder before trying to rebuild the desktop if you re experiencing definite problems and not just doing preventive maintenance you may want to use fifth generation s freeware init desktop reset desktop reset completely deletes the desktop file before rebuilding it thus eliminating possibly corrupt data structures zap the pram and reset the clock all macs from the original k thin mac to the quadra contain a small amount of battery powered ram to hold certain settings that properly move with the cpu rather than with the disk such as which disk to boot from unfortunately this parameter ram can become corrupted and cause unexplained crashes to reset it under system hold down the command option p and r keys while restarting your mac under system hold down the command option and shift keys while selecting the control panel from the apple menu click yes when asked if you want to zap the parameter ram since you ve erased almost all the settings in the general control panel you should now reset them to whatever you want the one setting that zapping the pram does not erase is the date and time but since the internal clock in the macintosh is notoriously inaccurate you ll probably want to take this opportunity to reset it anyway resize the system heap even after rethinking their extensions as per step two most people still have at least half a row of icons march across the bottom of their screen every time they restart all these extensions and most applications too need space in a section of memory called the system heap if the system heap isn t big enough to comfortably accommodate all the programs that want a piece of it they all start playing king of the mountain on the system heap knocking each other off to get bigger pieces for themselves and trying to climb back on after they get knocked off all this fighting amongst the programs severely degrades system performance and almost inevitably crashes the mac if you re using system your macintosh will automatically resize the system heap as necessary but if you re running system it s important to set your system heap size large enough to manage all your extensions and applications by default this size is set to k way too small for most macs with any extensions at all the system heap size is stored in the normally non editable boot blocks of every system disk bill steinberg s freeware utility bootman not only lets you resize your system heap but even checks how much memory your heap is already using so it can tell how much needs to be allocated if you re running system get bootman use it and be amazed at how infrequently your macintosh crashes reinstall the system software system files can become corrupt and fragmented especially if you ve stored lots of fonts and desk accessories inside them merely updating the system software will often not fix system file corruption i recommend doing a clean reinstall here s how boot from the installer floppy of your system disks copy any non standard fonts and desk accessories out of your system file into a temporary suitcase trash the system file on your hard disk also trash the finder multifinder da handler and all other standard apple extensions like control panel and chooser these will all be replaced in the new installation if you re running or installing system move everything in the extensions control panels and preferences folders into the top level of the system folder rename the system folder any name other than system folder is fine double click the installer script on your system disk then choose customize select the appropriate software for your model mac and printer you could do an easy install instead but that will only add a lot of extensions and code you don t need that waste your memory and disk space once installation is finished move everything from the temporary folder you created in step into the new system folder if you re asked if you want to replace anything you forgot to take something out in step you ll need to replace things individually until you find the duplicate piece reinstall any fonts or da s you removed in step reboot you should now have a clean defragmented system file that takes up less memory and disk space and a much more stable system overall disk utilities much like system files hard disks have data structures that occasionally become corrupted affecting performance and even causing data loss apple includes disk first aid a simple utility for detecting and repairing hard disk problems with its system disks it s also available for anonymous ftp from ftp apple com in the directory dts mac sys soft hdsc even if you have an earlier version you should get the latest version from ftp apple com and run it on all your hard disks several companies have released payware disk utilities that detect and repair considerably more problems than disk first aid though interestingly none of them detect and repair everything that disk first aid does the three most effective for general work are central point s mactools deluxe fifth generation s public utilites and symantec s norton utilities for the macintosh a department or work group should have all of these as well as disk first aid since none of them fix everything the others do for individuals mactools street is about half the price of norton street or public utilities street so features and ease of use being roughly equal i recommend mactools all of these products occasionally encounter problems they can t fix when that happens it s time to backup and reformat backing up this is one part of preventative maintenance that should be done a lot more often than every three months the simplest back up is to merely copy all the files on your hard disk onto floppies or other removable media if you keep your data files separate from your application and support files then it s easy to only back up those folders which change frequently nonetheless every three months you should do a complete backup of your hard disk a number of programs are available to make backing up easier apple included a very basic full backup application with system with the performas apple ships a new apple backup utility that can backup the entire disk or just the system folder onto floppies the previously mentioned norton utilities for the mac and mactools deluxe include more powerful floppy backup utilities that incorporate compression and incremental backups finally if you re lucky enough to have a tape drive network server or removable media device to use for backups you should check out the more powerful payware utilities redux street doesn t support tape drives and diskfit pro street there are no freely available backup utilities other than the old hd backup from system disk defragmentation as disks fill up it gets harder and harder to find enough free space in the same place to write large files therefore the operating system will often split larger files into pieces to be stored in different places on your hard disk as files become more and more fragmented performance can degrade there are several ways to defragment a hard disk the most tedious but cheapest method is to backup all your files erase the hard disk and you might as well reformat while you re at it see question and restore all the files a number of payware utilities including norton utilities for the mac and mac tools deluxe can defragment a disk in place i e without erasing it although the ads for all these products brag about their safety once you ve bought the software and opened the shrink wrap they all warn you to back up your disk before defragmenting it in case something does go wrong there are no freeware or shareware disk defragmenters so please don t annoy the net by asking for one reformat your hard disk just as a floppy disk needs to be initialized before use so a hard disk must be formatted before it can hold data you don t need to reformat every three months but when your system is crashing no matter what you try reformatting is the ultimate means of wiping the slate clean reformatting your hard disk may even gain you a few extra megabytes of space not all hard disks are created equal some can hold more data than others to facilitate mass production and advertising without a lot of asterisks megabytes is the average formatted capacity your mileage may vary apple often formats drives to the lowest common denominator of drive capacity when you reformat there s no reason at all not to reclaim whatever unused space apple s left on your disk unlike floppies hard disks need a special program to initialize them most hard disks come with formatting software apple s disks and system software ship with hd sc setup a minimal disk formatter which will format apple brand hard drives only most other manufacturers ship appropriate formatting software with their hard drives normally this will be all you need to reformat your hard disk a number of general purpose formatters are also available which go beyond the bundled software to include features like encryption password protection multiple partitioning faster disk access system compatibility and even compression two of the best are the payware drive and hard disk toolkit personal edition street for either while there are one or two freeware formatters available none are likely to be superior to the ones bundled with your hard disk powerbook users should be sure to turn off sleep and processor cycling before reformatting their hard drives no matter what software they use otherwise disk corruption crashes and data losses are a very good possibility elliotte rusty harold department of mathematics elharo shiva njit edu new jersey institute of technology erh tesla njit edu newark nj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file sharing magneto opticals hi my co worker has just attached a magneto optical drive to his mac works great for him however he tried to turn on file sharing but it wouldn t work had some message about not all volumes are shareable so has anyone had success in sharing mos if so please tell me how jann vanover atc boeing com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple monitor woes i have a month old that seems to have acquired the jitters of late the apple color monitor that i m using with an lciii sort of jiggles to the left and right all the time now i have attempted to relocate the monitor to make sure the problem isn t interference from something else but the problem seems to remain no matter what i do has anybody encountered this problem thanks jeff budzinski jeffreyb netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in a previous article glalonde watson ibm com says as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup access to memory takes longer when you have a cache card and get a miss thus a small cache card of k may be worth i don t know what kind of numbers k cards get you also i found it interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about it in the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze thought you might be interested chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	virus centris wierdness i ve been getting seemingly random disk accesses on my centris with a quantum lps but this is not the regular recalibration it has been doing since i got it this is sometimes short sometimes long accesses that sound like there is some read writing going on i have sam and disinfectant but neither picks up anything any ideas jason titus ecosys drdr virginia edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor jitter several weeks ago i described a problem with my apple high resolution monitor and promised to summarize replies received by e mail to recapitulate occasionally every two or three hours or so my monitor momentarily loses sync the entire raster image bounces down about an eighth of an inch or so then rights itself this usually happens right after i close a large window highlight a large area or do something that radically alters the image on the screen sometimes though it happens with no provocation whatsoever i have received a bewildering range of replies at one extreme was a man clearly quite knowledgable about monitors who said that the problem was that the monitor s power supply simply couldn t always keep up with sudden changes of the raster image the rapid change from a largely light screen to a largely dark one overtaxed the monitor s power supply there was no fix available he said because nothing was really wrong i guess he meant that the flaw was so fundamental that it had to be endured this seemed quite persuasive and i would have been tempted to adopt an attitude of stoicism except for a reply from a monitor owner who discovered that this very problem is documented in the apple service technical procedures volume under the heading jitter correction the section describes a fix involving the replacement of a capacitor the adjustment of a potentiometer or failing that the swap of a circuit board i would be grateful for a discussion among those who have had experience with this sort of thing
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article apr pasteur berkeley edu mohr cory berkeley edu gordon mohr writes in article baa e c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu writes why no it is a little known fact that no macs have a cpu they are all connected via a cellular network to the cray supercomputer in apple s garage that s right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don t you know the only division at apple allowed to use the cray is the legal department gordon um they ve sold the cray they realised that spending two years on numbercrunching the finite stress analysis figures for the complex injection molded cases was not the way to go and was holding up development work especially when the first fea model for the portable left out the battery cover and it had to be redone that s why the portable was about three years late designing metal cases is easier they re managing with the calculator da now it can compute correctly any other suggestions l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sony reliability was re musings on pb durability in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes that was my point sony did manufacture the powerbook under license from apple and it actually works yup i bought the darn thing cause it was sturdy i carry it around in an unpadded unless you consider all the papers and files and folders bookbag shoulder strap little job from eddie bauer i ve travelled cross country several times with walkman discman and tapes books and computer all piled in their my pb works happily and i m typing on it right now it has a global village teleport v internal send receive fax modem and i just love it unfortunately i have seen a new duo that a friend bought as a primary computer i have a mac iisi and se as primary home computers and quadra and iici at work in the lab and while amazed at the lightness of it i was kinda shocked at the flimsiness of the screen i m sure it d break real easy sorry but other than my trinitron everything else i ve ever bought from sony has failed why did i keep trying because i m tupid aw c mon i ve got a sony vcr a sony tv both must be over two years old by now a sony camcorder five months old and of course an apple rgb monitor with a sony tube that i m never going to part with and the cd i drive in my month old centris is in fact a sony maybe it s a question of personal compatibility maybe your body puts out the wrong polarity of static electricity or something geez we are a sony familly our neighbor works for zeinth and hates it always asks why we didn t buy zeinth products nice guy nevertheless we still have two working sony color trinitrons from and older one is on it s second picture tube but both work now they re relegated to the old bit atari computer and atari game machinces as well as our not that old younger sister s nintendo game machine sony doesn t make tv s like they used to though the newer mexican assembly line tv s are not that reliable or sharp anymore dad also just got a direct view sony god the thing weighs a ton still where would we be without trinitrons cd players or the veritable walkman shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price cuts i heard that the magic date for price drop in a number of apple products will be june th can anyone second this rumour a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drops i heard that there will be an apple price drop coming june th can anyone second this rumour a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re selling of powerbook s in article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes in article r aaainnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago i bought a pb with external floppy appletalk remote access a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition used for us i considered it a very good buy and am very cosy with my little baby now murray put me down for a pb with ext floppy appletalk remote acces ac adapter and fresh out of box was used but buyer switched to on arrival and sold unopened box purchased last october for later i bought a used powerport v bps internal fax modem for something like i m using right now works great no real complaints i love my portable system got a color home setup also mac ii reasoning was that matlab programs at school and other simulations of dynamic control systems sometimes took hours or overnight to run tying up my mac ii i got the pb with fast modem to do light work and on the run stuff i figured i d give it to my little sister next year when she goes to college it s running system now without any problems also i sometimes do dec terminal emulations with matlab on our university s vax vms nice thing that it benchmarks itself as an average of times faster than a mac iifx so the pb just does graphical output and terminal emulation not too hard at all for it it was a fabulous setup weeee by the way all matlab software was on class accounts i was also the ta for a class that used simulab simulink we had site license and take home then destroy later site release licenses no pirating there incase you re wondering great program just like to add whatever future system you get you can almost never get enuff memory buy it while it s cheap that is buy it when you get the computer since it s usually cheaper than upgrading i always run out of disk space but i have a syquest on the mac iisi so i never worried about space before got several carts shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ouadra cache problems hi mac fans i have some problems with my new quadra several programs mathematica afterdark mandelbrot module causes a systemcrash if the cache is active do anyone have a list of programs which are compatible and which are not do anyone have some hints for the use of the quadras perfomence thanks joerg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how fast is m ll a apple fpu what is the maximum rate of the fpu that apple sells directly apple part no m ll a the apple literature labels the fpu for classics and lc iii s so i assume it will do at least mhz my question is can i put it in a performa mhz the apple price is cheap at compared to from mail order houses any one know the answer to this one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s needed for cd rom on a mac does system x support all scsi cd rom drives or are specific drivers needed for each different make model specifically i m looking at getting a nec cdr mainly because they are cheap i know its a slow drive but multimedia isn t my interest i mainly want it for extracting software distributed on cd will i need to get a specific driver to use this drive on a mac thanks charles charles carlson umcarls ccu umanitoba ca warning this article contains flammable material that may ignite without prior notice read only with protective eyeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cards for duodock i just got a duo and a duodock and am quite happy with it all except i need to use the dock with a two page grey scale monitor apple b two page color monitor apple what is net wisdom on which vendor video card would be preferable thanks in advance jon jon sticklen tele ai kbs lab comp sci dept fax a wells hall office in a eng bldg michigan state university east lansing mi home tele
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare also amiga comparisson david a schnider bmug org wrote the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running sy stem on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i stuff deleted david even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga sure there are other considerations but it goes to show you how proper design from the beginning in hardware and software can give you great returns as well as showing you that if you don t have a marketing department to speak of no one will care how good your system is i ve had the same experience actually i love the mac interface and any number of the features but am sorely dissapointed with the speed i use macs daily and am a moc consultant for osu statistics department i m familiar with almost every model out there and my experience is that both the amiga and the atari st simply blow the mac out of the water in terms of performance at this time i would in general say that the other advantages of the mac outweigh the advantages of the amiga or the st and falcon but i really wish apple would get their heads together on speed they could take a real lesson in muli tasking from the amiga os or the multitos in the atari falcons too i m still happy with my ci but i don t understand why the performance is so bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn t of course dos and windows are nothin to write home about either i just hope that someone comes out with a machine that does everything well someday if i had my choice i would go with mac in most aspects but add the speed and superior multi tasking of the other platforms as for the original topic trying to compare just the chip in a machine seems almost worthless a fast with a wiz bang graphics accelerator will be faster in productivity for many applications than a even a stock quadra add a graphics accelerator to a and you really fly of course add one the the quadra and then you re blowing the away etc oh well y all got worth for the price of i think mine was only worth david butler dhbutler magnus acs ohio state edu this is not a novel to be tossed away lightly it should be thrown with great force dorothy parker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius pivot le card with bit adressing hello out there my mac iisi runs a radius pivot le monitor with the pds card as i wanted to try to switch to bit adressing i couldn t startup my mac anymore what is the trick to zap the pram so i won t have to take out the battery next time is there any trick that could allow me to switch to bit what does bit adressing bring to me as an user faster work any chance to have more than mb of adressable memory with bit adressing thank you a lot for your answers via mail or reply ralph schwegler university of st gallen switzerland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac lc does anyone know it the macintosh lc has pin the pin that enables better flow control i know the lc doesn t have it but what about i have had conflicting reports so far please help thank you btw do you use reznova s novalink yes e mail me via uci v c net amiga dennis t cheung the dtc tm corporation of america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn t exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for lc ii info needed hi folks subject line says it all which accelerators can you recommend for a mac lc ii sorry if this a faq cheers steffo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ii vi to be discontinued good buy a local dealer is offering mac ii vi machines equipped with kodak multi session compatible cd rom drives for what seems like an attractive price i ve used many other models up to a ii ci but this would be the first i could have my own mac is it safe to buy an about to be discontinued model such as this i d like to yank the cd rom drive out put it in a housing and share it with my pc is this feasible the only info i have on the ii vi is that it is relatively slow mhz has an chip with a math coprocessor i want to add a non apple portrait monitor and use this machine for hypercard stack design is this a good buy or would i be wasting my money i would appreciate some advice thanks robert matthews grfg twnmoe bitnet edu tw taiwan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi re methods for attaching heat sink to processor go to radio shack and buy a tube of heat sink compound it comes in a little blue and white tube with a black screw on cap at radio shack it s catalog number it s a mix of silicone and zinc oxide and conducts heat very well plus it s tacky usually you would smear a bit between the chip and the sink and then bolt or clamp the sink down but if you don t move your mac gravity and the stickiness of the goo should be more than suffcient to hold things in place just make sure you remember it s in there in case you tilt your mac and jar it hard enough to shake it loose you wouldn t want a loose piece of metal running around inside your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	important se users only we are having problems with a bunch of se s in one of our labs the fault is that the machines either bomb or freeze when attempting to write to their internal floppies the internal floppies have been tested on their own and are fine which means that it is a main board fault the machines all come from the same batch the date code on the back of the machines is december do you own a machine from this batch has any user had experience with this fault was it a warranty repair any feedback would be appreciated and i will post the results to the net bill mail william a russell computing science dept tel x glasgow univ lilybank gardens glasgow g qq uk arpa bill dcs glasgow ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk usenet bill dcs glasgow uucp janet bill uk ac glasgow dcs usebangnet mcsun ukc dcs glasgow ac uk bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article r nb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu charles g williams writes so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze actually the is for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can be had for about still not a bad deal i believe the powercard is one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference is that the powercard is machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based i m not sure if the hardware or software with the powercard is otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten me i would also add that i called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel md x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in article ingemar isy ingemar ragnemalm ingemar isy liu se writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver is pretty ok since it s fast sound manager used by the book is useless disposing of sound channels as soon as sound has completed is out of the question for games with smooth animation it s too slow why would you dispose a channel if you are going to play more sounds soon if you are trying to write a game you shouldn t be using sndplay instead make a channel and use buffercmds to play sounds on it it works great you can add callbacks to the channel also to let you know when the channel is getting empty before it gets empty the sound driver is so much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports it poorly making programs crash occasionally the moral of the story is to developers don t cheat well i want my code to work on old systems too i don t know about sys but at least on there are bugs in the sound manager that causes channels to hang with no error message this happends when i keep a channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not to be reliable then only way i can safely tell if a sound has stopped playing is to inspect private variables in the channel qhead i think it was and the only way i have found to tell if a channel is hung is to inspect an undocumented flag and modify it callbacks are very reliable i found them reliable even under system i was doing continuous background sound with interrupting sound effects on system with the im v documentation you probably were cancelling your callback commands out of your channels of course you didn t get called in general if you have problems with sounds working when you play one per channel and then close the channel with the related slowdown but then when you play more than one you don t work then you are adding more than one synthesizer to a channel possibly the same one multiple times this might be because you are calling sndplay on a preexisting channel with a sound resource which adds the sampled sound synthesizer to the channel first thing before it plays most sampled sounds have this command at the start of them you need to resedit the sound and remove that command then when you create your channel specify the sampled sound synthesizer to be the channel s synth then you can use asynch sndplay s all you want you ll probably want to switch to buffercmd s since you are going to have to use snddocommand anyway to add callbacks now before you go ahead and tell me i am full of it and the sound manager doesn t work for games remember spectre uses it and it works great if spectre can spare the cpu time you can too one little disclaimer there are some out there who say the sound manager in the iisi can t be made to work right i m not sure either way but i know for sure that you can make your sounds work correctly on every other machine using the sound manager steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	running mathematica on a pb here s another question by a hesitant powerbook purchaser i want to be able to run mathematica and would like to hear some comments from the gallery about this how much slower does the program run on a machine without an fpu namely a pb versus a machine with an fpu namely a pb what types of calculations get bogged down the most i primarily due moderately simple algebra integrals which can be dealt with analytically and plotting including d plots i don t do a lot of numerical work would a pb with a lot of memory and the very nice video port be sufficient or should i really try to get an fpu for this type of work is a pb with mb faster than a pb with or mb all comments appreciated please respond by email ross sbphy physics ucsb edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris to mhz or mhz i just put a mhz cpu into my centris now i have a math coprocessor but is it possible to speed up the centris to run at either mhz or mhz i didn t see any oscillators on the motherboard like the ones on the iisi s motherboard where is the oscillator for the centris any ideas thanks saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q ehman monitor service i recall that ehman died can anyone suggest what the problem is when the picture jumps about an inch any direction two page monchrome monitor connected to newlife accelerator and video board in an se at the end of the work day several hours with power on the picture will occasionally jitter a couple of times and then remain calm for a few minutes then it does more shaking the environment around the computer appears to be stable nothing newly introduced near the computer any ideas please e mail to carsona sfu ca or reply here also has anyone used ehman two page with powerbook video what was required just a cable adapter thanks for any help dale carsona sfu ca ps i think the monitor is a zenith mechanism
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet questions my school is settin g up a new network with bothe macs and apple ii s i m used to ethernet and don t know mu ch about localtalk two things first in macwherehouse bthe y have poweruser network connectors and the caption leads you to bel ieve that you can plug them into the phone lines in the building and have them work is this true i ve seen it done by running sep erate phone cords but never with real lines second if that does work could you use a modem hooked up to that same line while the network was active help would be greatly appriciated btw running seperate phone line is out of the question the network wil verry spread o ericronin bringing a kind word and a helpful spirit wherever we can we are the association a multi line macintosh bbs in grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet k plus gb files at hst v bis testify eric cronin internet eric cronin f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	carrying case for centris does anyone know if there is a carrying case for the centris thanks for any info saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax i keep my apple trinitron and iisi on for months at a time doesn t seem to cause any problems tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	datadesk keyboard centris fix i posted on here about a problem with a datadesk e keyboard that failed to rebuild the desktop with the command option keys pressed or to shut off inits when pressing the shift key after absolutely no help from datadesk i called macconnection tech support they tried it out on their centris and had the same problem they immediately offered to get a new keyboard try it on their centris and ship it to me overnight if it worked i could send them my keyboard back after i got the one that worked this is from a guy in tech support named dave it turns out that the keyboard will wrok if you wait for the smiley face before pressing the shift key to disable inits and wait for the inits to start appearing to rebuild the desktop by pressing command option i really like this keyboard so i was glad to be able to keep it on the other hand datadesks tech support sucks while macconnection s is great terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks hi i posted that article unfortunately i haven t seen any further notice of it they advertize cheaper duo s at the u here for next wek according to the articel though the price cut had to be effective the same day newsbyte is a group of news like clarinet peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according to macweek of the cyclone will come in the same metal minitower case as the quadra while the tempest will share the low slung case of the centris apple will offer a miniature video camera that can be mounted above the user s monitor or moved about on the end of its cable to take pictures of objects or documents taking advantage of the bit digital signal processor dsp built into the systems logic boards the camera will be able to put an image measuring by pixels with gray levels on the screen users will be able to install supplementary lenses that can record detail as fine as the wire bonds on an integrated circuit the camera is expected to cost between and the systems will ship with all the software needed to put apple s casper voice recognition technology to work users apparently will have to purchase an operational high fidelity microphone the two models will talk as well as listen a new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent by applications to phonemes and then pass them to a speech synthesizer the cyclone will include a mhz three nubus slots and support for up to mb of ram the tempest will use a mhz lc lacking an fpu and hold up to mb of ram it will have a single slot that will require a nubus adapter and have room for only inch nubus cards users will be able to update the tempest s process but not the cyclone s for more get the issue of macweek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help fdhd failure in iicx repost due to net problems hi i have problems with the fdhd on a iicx that ekg reports is rom revision i had reports that this mac was having trouble formatting disks and by the time i got to it the fdhd just would not respond although all other functions were fine i checked the voltages on the db external drive connector and pin showed no volts with and giving volts unloaded the power supply is an astec and i sent it away for repair with the power supply reinstalled i now get the following error with the internal fdhd connected the mac boots fine but on completion of boot cycle an alert displays the disk is unreadable do you want to eject it for every combination of response the alert reappears within approx seconds and this error is continuous the fdhd does spin but there is no head seeking and the fdhd is incapable of ejecting the disk this error sequence occurs regardless of whether there is a floppy in the drive or not pin on the db external connector shows v pins and show v with the internal fdhd disconnected the mac boots fine and works great macekg reports no errors the db external connector now shows no voltage on pin but pins and show v now the internal fdhd may be fubar but i have an apple k external drive that gives exactly the same symptoms as the internal drive when connected to either the external db or the internal connector at j after suitable surgery to the external drive the voltages at j with the internal fdhd disconnected are as follows pin volts pin volts this machine has a swim which i don t think ekg tests i have tested all diodes and pica fuses and can find no problems does anybody have any ideas best wishes woody paul woodman praxis plc the software engineering company of touche ross manvers street bath ba px uk tel xt fax woody praxis co uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	number for applied engineering anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call steven langlois slang bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to change default paper cassette on lw pro hi i want to change the default paper cassette on our laserwriter pro from the sheet cassette to the sheet cassette right now we all have to change it manually on the print dialog each time we print if we forget the document is printed on the letterhead paper we have in the sheet cassette any ideas michael michael p hecht internet michael hecht mac sas com sas institute inc cary nc usa applelink sas hecht
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi in article c ufzp btp willamette edu thomas a herzog therzog willamette edu writes so i finally decided to risk this upgrade faq in hand i ve gathered the pieces together the only problem is that i haven t been able to find anyone who s even heard of thermal tape glue which is what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink i am just tempted to use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for me for attaching the heat sink to the processor much thanks just use a thin film of epoxy that s what i did epoxy conducts heat fairly well and my heat sink gets warm to prove it i looked for the stuff myself my local ee jocks said to use epoxy have fun ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fast modems slow macs 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted audiomedia card wanted digidesgn audiomedia card for the mac email if you have one for sale thanks ee fcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan wrote yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more turn it off when you re not using it it ll save you money and the world a few more resources the problem with turing your computer on and off constantly is not due to the power surge at start up it is due to thermal fatigue you turn on your computer it heats up and everything expands you turn it off it cools off and everything contracts there is a limited number of cycles of this that any component can take before it fails modern electronics are much more robust in this respect than their predeccesors in fact portable computers are designed with this in mind since the sleep function that extends battery life also greatly increaces the number of thermal cycles that occur as a rule of thumb if i am not going to use my computer and this includes the monitor in the next hours i turn it off i always dim the monitor when not in use to prolong the life of the phosphor i tend to think that with the pace of technical innovation in the computer industry you should be much less concerned with the fatigue life of your equipment and more concerned with how long your particular architecture will be supported by hardware and software vendors charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	extra monitors hi netters for my home computer i have a humble maclc with a color monitor the majority of my work is writing therefore i would love to have a b w portrait monotor conected to the lc however i sometimes do need the color monitor my question is this is there a good cheap way to hook up two monitors to my lc and is there anyone out there that has done this how do you like it please respond here or to me directly thanks for your time hope to talk to anyone soon jerry salem jerry slack med upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks for unlockfolder sorry all the personal replies i sent about help with unlockfolder got eaten by my mail program my fault so i d like to thank everyone who sent me info kristen lepa origin leo technology hst v
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis writes ns i have negotiated a ns good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it ns but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal ns i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better ns deal i don t know of a better deal but would you be willing to share your deal with the rest of us that certainly sounds like you re getting a great deal i d be interested in that deal too deluxe b s microframe the best in price and performance qnet the pipeline atlanta ga echo mail from around the world ok if i post where this comes from will people stop sending email asking where i negotiated the deal the deal is from international computer and networking in ca i saw the ad int he back of macworld and macuser phone number is and the deal may have changed since a few weeks ago since they change prices about every ten minutes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip ok there ya have it but if i were you i would wait untill the cyclones come out and buy a quadra nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime resolution anyone happen to know what the max resolution for quicktime is i m trying to determine if a maxed out system using quicktime could produce and edit broadcast quality video including bringing the video in via video spigot etc so far i have yet to see anything that s even close to s vhs in quicktime but it d be great to hear that it s possible thanks for the help alex bratton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i want macweek how do i get a subscription to macweek i want one but i don t seem to be able to find a subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	c ugradable to tempest is it going to be possible to upgrade a c to tempest if so how motherboard switch probably gonna be expensive right dt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appleone scanner and printing quality we just received an appleone color scanner for our lab however i am having trouble getting reasonable scanned output when printing a scanned photo on a laserwriter iig i have tried scanning at a higher resolution and the display on the screen appears very nice however the printed version is coming out ugly is this due to the resolution capabilities of the printer or are there tricks involved to get better quality or should we be getting something like photoshop to pretty up the image i will appreciate any suggestions thanks in advance kris kris schroeder schroede cps msu edu ai kbs lab michigan state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article c u l m i netnews jhuapl edu richs aplcomm jhuapl edu rich spiegel writes in article r nb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu charles g williams writes so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze actually the is for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can be had for about still not a bad deal i believe the powercard is one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference is that the powercard is machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based i m not sure if the hardware or software with the powercard is otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten me i would also add that i called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel md x as a side note in that same ad macworld they are selling the mhz powercache for the iisi with fpu for for those thinking of upgrading to the mhz turbo an upgrade costs direct from daystar this comes out to about cheaper than what most mail order companies charge jon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day jim smyton smytonj alleg edu sometimes ya just gotta grab we re not hitchhiking life by the teeth and yank anymore we re riding as hard as you can ren weird al
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re using setwutime with a pb in article c s u l p world std com andrew e page aep world std com writes one way to tell is to go and open the powerbook control panel there is a setting there that allows you to set the time to wake up the mac if it is present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work gee nice of them to tell us like how about a gestalt response bit for the gestaltpowermanagerattributesfoodspreadproduct selector well at least now i know why it doesn t work i assume i m using a pb kevin boyce lheavx gsfc nasa gov argle bargle morble whoosh moxie or was it pepsi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desi pb upgrade david a schnider bmug org writes does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting to me that some chips may not be able to perform at mhz is this true and if so how does desi deal with that would you believe that there is a letter in macweek this week from one of the hardware types at digital eclipse he says that they run tests on all of the components to see if they will perform at the upgraded speed if they do not then desi replaces them with ones that do hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes in the official paper i got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called it the duodock plus what paper is that it s been on the price list here at dartmouth since they released it and it has never been called the duodock plus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what was the in light of the letter over what was the lisa i thought i d start a new one what was the iivx i hear it was some machine that predated the main line by about mos but used obsolete tech rumor has it that several were sold for those iivx owners whose panties are in a bunch now this is just a joke really i m just tired of the repetitive nature of this type of dialog plus flaming is stress relief
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ii slowdowns in article l sb b w w tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace this happens intermittently to macs in our department ranging from iisi s to a quadra i can end the slowdown immediately by unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac it seems that something on the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect of making our macs slow down to a crawl david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter i vs ii does anyone know what the differences are between the stylewriter and the stylewriter ii please respond via e mail to l d sanders larc nasa gov thanks lyle d sanders l d sanders larc nasa gov unisys government systems inc mail stop b voice nasa langley research center fax hampton va i do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who endowed us with sense reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use galileo galilei
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice well the monitor is consistently the largest power drain on your electric bill when you are looking at your computer set up especially if you have a large or greater color monitor generally what i do is leave my mac on all the time except for the occasional resart or syetem crash but i turn my monitor off each night before i leave my office i also turn off after dark when i do this since there is no reason to have the screen saver running when there is no picture being displyed on the monitor s tube actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day really what makes you think this the q file server in my office has been on for the last months straight and it hasn t had any problems note i also keep the monitor for the file server turned off when i m not actually working on the server itself hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what was the apple li in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis writes the lisa was originally introduced in or i forget now and sold for with k floppy drives and mb memory it didn t do too well grin close but no cigar the lisa was introduced in january at the same time as the apple e i ll have to check to see if the hard drive came bundled for the k the floppy drives were initially the infamous twiggy drives chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se bit card does not work with mb hello i have a se and a generation systems bit pds card for a screen it worked great until i upgraded from to mb ram now with sys and mode or enabler it does not boot a tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works ok with the mb and full graphics what s happening thanks a lot for any advice please answer by mail ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse d berlin germany tel or email ossip cs tu berlin de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on is this true i thought that this was disputed peter peter white internet pw uacsc albany edu state univ of new york at albany bitnet pw albnyvms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi so i finally decided to risk this upgrade faq in hand i ve gathered the pieces together the only problem is that i haven t been able to find anyone who s even heard of thermal tape glue which is what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink i am just tempted to use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for me for attaching the heat sink to the processor much thanks tom therzog willamette edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	inexpensive frame grabbers for macs are all the there pc news any mac se that fit or on tv classic v frame video grabber mac llllll board vision i know of several nubus frame grabber boards but wonder if there might be similar ones for the lesser macs those without slots something permitting instant freezing of a video picture pal and feeding it in without jaggies to a simple digitizer like macvision which takes secs to scan a picture so a frame grabber is a necessity the objective is bit pixel b w pictures stored in hypercard have tried using top quality vcr with freeze frame function but the screens come out full of streaks and garbage please reply only to ianf random se and i ll summarize to the net cannot read such high volume group as is c s m h thanks ian hit r now feldman ianf random se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac code f hello i am the proud new owner of a mac k upon power up and insertion of the sytem disk i get sad mac code f can anyone give me a clue to what this means thanks steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more turn it off when you re not using it it ll save you money and the world a few more resources kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb and extended keyboard hello i saw this question posted a week or so ago but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd if this would be too much of a load for the pb and as i want to connect just such a beast i am curious i haven t got a pb yet so i can t rtfm but i assume that a standard keyboard with a mouse would be ok as the spec sheet i read mentioned connecting an external keyboard but is the extended plus mouse pushing it any help gratefully recieved i will summarise to the net if necessary thanks john collins p s i am thinking of a pb but i assume that this would apply to all pb s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed in article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes the two models will talk as well as listen a new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent by applications to phonemes and then pass them to a speech synthesizer now to make it perfect apple ought to run right out and license the voice of a certain mrs roddenberry for the speech synthesizer scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se accelerator i m trying to find some information on accelerator boards for the se has anyone used any in the past especially those from extreme systems novy or macproducts i m looking for a board that will support extended video especially radius s two page monitor has anyone used connectix virtual in conjunction with their board any software snafus are there any stats anywhere on the speed difference between a board with an fpu and one without please send mail directly to me thanks bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re extra monitors jerry salem writes is there a good cheap way to hook up two monitors to my lc and is there anyone out there that has done this how do you like it jerry slack med upenn edu the only way to do that would be to add a video card to the lc expansion port this doesn t have to be that expensive several companies have portrait monitor video card bundles available check a current macworld macuser nizam nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with duo does anyone know how to zap the pram on the duo inaddition i have recently noticed that checking the ram left in the finder on the duo reveals the normal k for the system file but only about to of the bar is actually highlighted implying that only k is being used for the system what gives i have had no crashes yet or other software problem thanks arun mathur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple gc video card a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance joe kasanic
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info request hp deskwriter mathematica has anyone else gotten a system error when trying to print from mathematica to the hp deskwriter i m using a pb with megs ram sys tuneup hp print drivers etc it works find on an imagewriter i i d like to get as much information as possible before i send a bug report to wolfram thanks kurt whitmore iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vx centris upgrade price anyone have a price quote vendor for the vx to centris upgrade i ve been quoted a price of till august th after which it will cost this of course doesn t include the trade in rebate of for the vx board thus for one gets a centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price is from the university of illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices johann j beda uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sad mac code f in article apr desire wright edu cse desire wright edu writes hello i am the proud new owner of a mac k upon power up and insertion of the sytem disk i get sad mac code f can anyone give me a clue to what this means bad system disk possibly too new a version for your historical curiosity h h h h h h h h hfat mac matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want macweek you can call macuser magazine number i guess they will give you the info
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet pc anyone have any experiences to report using phonenet pc we re thinking about investing in one of these cards for our lone pc at work ken gantz kgantz cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi info needed hi everyone i just had a quick question does anyone know whether or not the maciivx supports the new scsi form or do any macs support it thanks for reading wes wes houghton internet whoughto diana cair du edu denver co
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac os does anybody know where i can get a copy of system l it is a modified version of system that will work on the newer mac models y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed in article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according to macweek of description deleted any idea on prices thanks jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mon for duo s the duo s can drive apple s monitor at x resolution and colors i think what non apple monitors can also be used would a multisync nec fg work as well at the same resolution what are the outstanding points of the apple monitor when compared with these other monitors denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lw select doesn t work out of box hello net people we have a laserwriter select standard mb ram connected to an lc iii the print driver cannot find any adobe type fonts or any truetype fonts in the system the connections to the printer and the driver installation are correct but this printer still refuses to find fonts and work correctly out of the box imho an apple product not working out of the box is a shameful event the installer disks for the printer install lw select driver v printmonitor v and backgrounder v on a system lc iii has anyone else had similar experiences with this printer configuration because we really need some help on this one thanks anthony anthony medicine adelaide edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock modification long here is how i modified my quadra for higher speed previously i had been using a variable speed overdrive for accelerating my cpu but this modification is testing out as more stable at higher speeds your mileage may vary the top speed you achieve cannot be predicted before hand my personal q has tested fine up to mhz thus far i didn t have higher speed clock oscillators on hand to test higher speeds parts clock oscillators pin ttl variety you will need a selection of speeds beginning at mhz on up the cpu will run at the oscillator speed the original one is a mhz unit i recommend getting a mhz clock in case you damage the existing one i obtained my clock oscillators from digikey for less than each some of their part numbers are mhz ttl clock oscillator part x mhz ttl clock oscillator part x mhz ttl clock oscillator part ctx don t get the half size clock oscillators they won t fit there are also cmos clock oscillators i haven t tried one in a quadra they work fine in iisi s socket obtain a pin socket which is in the same form factor as a pin dip package alternatively use machined socket pins from an augat style socket just cut them out of the socket cooling fan a very small volt fan to keep the cpu cool is a must my vso came with a specially modified heatsink which had a fan built onto it it had a pass through connector which tapped into the hard drive power cable you should rig up something similar or risk frying your cpu procedure insert usual disclaimer and antistatic warnings here remove the top lid of the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this unplug all cables wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release look at the rear of the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section of the plastic tower a phillips head screw is at the base remove it taking care not to drop it into the case a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful here remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case remove the interrupt switch assembly it is a strangely shaped plastic device at the left front edge of the motherboard pull the middle rear plastic prong up and forward the entire device will release unplug the speaker cable squeeze the plastic tab on the speaker to free it then swing it backwards to free it from the case remove the motherboard form the case lift the front right corner of the motherboard about mm this allows it to clear the clear plastic power light guide slide the motherboard forward about cm the motherboard then comes directly out locate the mhz clock crystal it is a small metal box near the cpu chip note and remember its orientation the new clock oscillators must be aligned with pin in the same orientation very carefully desolder and remove the old clock oscillator some of the pins may be bent over simply desolder then unbend them be sure your desoldering iron is hot enough before heating the board i used a suction desoldering iron to accomplish this task this is not appropriate for a first soldering experience the motherboard is a multi layer design with very fine traces easily damaged without proper care install your socket or socket pins where the old oscillator once was put a mhz clock oscillator into the new socket you could use the old clock but it has solder on its pins this may come of inside the socket and cause corrosion problems later i suggest using a new mhz clock install your cooling fan system to complete the modification reinsert the motherboard and slide it into place snap in the interrupt switch assembly and speaker to lock the mother board firmly plug the speaker wire back into the motherboard reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about cm posterior of its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables dont t forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount reattach your cables and power cords cross your fingers and turn on the mac it should make the usual power on chord if it doesn t something is amiss immediately turn of the power and recheck your handiwork if all is not well you have my sincere condolences hopefully all will work normally turn the machine back off and replace the mhz clock oscillator with a faster one reboot and be astounded you will need to fully test the machine for many hours before deciding a particular speed is truly usable with my vso a machine lock up might take hours of operation to occur in the brief time since modifying my clock oscillator hours i have not had a single problem good luck to all who attempt this modification there is a small but real risk but you could well reach quadra speeds or higher with less than in parts guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone tempest price any idea on the price range of the cyclone or the tempest compared to current line of computers where will the new ones fall in price keeper heh heh stop what is your name arthur it is arthur king of the britons keeper what is your quest arthur to seek the holy grail keeper what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow arthur what do you mean an african or european swallow keeper what i don t know that auuuuuuuugh bedemir how do know so much about swallows arthur well you have to know these things when you re a king you know brian lee smith blsmith eos ncsu edu north carolina state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help on gcc plp ii laser printer i have a plp ii laser printer make by gcc technologies i have problem with a dirty first page the top portion of the first is always smeared with black toner across the page if i print more than one page at the same time the problem does not occur on other pages i cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions or know the phone to gcc technologies thanks in advance charles cng me utoronto ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for mac ii batteries hi i am looking for a source of lithium batteries for an original mac ii the number on the battery is er aa local electronic shops computer stores freak when inquire the fastest any of them can get a battery to me is weeks for about anything faster and or cheaper is welcome please respond to me via e mail and i will summarize to the net note my e mail address differs from the return address of this posting thanks in advance for your help michael stovsky mps cbvox att com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade an se for a color mac ok i want to get a color mac i don t care if it is an lc or a mac ii or what but i want to go to a color machine i d prefer to trade my present mac se system plus some cash or other equipment for the color system as right now i m not full of the to buy a color system outright here s what my mac se system has mac se with internal k drive meg external external k drive imagewriter ii with color ribbon stuff that can go with it i m willing to include both of the modems and the baud modem if the deal is right keep in mind that both the modems are less than a month old and the multitech modem sells for about or so multitech multimodem ii data fax u s robotics sportster data microcom qx k normally will connect at only as highest but it will do faster if connected to another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new if interested send me e mail at dleonard wixer bga com primary judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com to cats to baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard at dleonard wixer cactus org this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock poll results long this poll was conducted to help users decide whether or not to alter their iisi clock oscillator i have attempted to gather as many case histories as possible to find some estimate of success and risk the number of replies probably shows how rare this modification is but give the impression that success rates may be higher than the previous estimate of machines were able to run at mhz when no add on boards were present this is not a scientific survey but it is the best we have to work with thanks to all who contributed to this poll issues speed mhz to mhz appears to be the norm for machines without add on cards all reported machines were able to use mhz as long as no add on cards were present several apple nubus cards were in use no machine with the nubus adapter was able to go faster than mhz one wasn t even able to achieve mhz with the nubus adapter in place at speeds of and mhz the startup sound is distorted and hi density floppy disk problems have been reported note unless specifically listed below machines were not tested with a higher speed clock to failure hence the mhz operational machines may well work at higher speeds damage one user reported pulling out the plating of one pad this was repaired and the machine is operational one other reported pulling the pin out of the original clock oscillator during desoldering there is one second hand report of a user putting a gash in the motherboard with a slipped soldering iron no reports of static discharge damage no reports of high speed operation causing damage then again i also don t have any reports from users of defective parachutes add on boards compatibility appears to be a problem with apple nubus adapters several other add on boards have been used with success see case histories heat sinks virtually all modified machines had a heat sink installed these were often the to style power transistor type some used epoxy some used a dab of heat sink compound with a dab of cyanoacrylate glue there was also use of a clamp with a bolt through the hole in the motherboard case histories all speeds are the effective cpu speed of clock oscillator all reported cpu versions were mhz mhz operational ran for minutes at mhz before crashing no fpu or other add on card heatsinked cpu only on hours day no damage during installation mhz operational without apple nubus adapter mhz top speed with apple nubus card installed heatsinked cpu only on hours day no floppy problems no damage during installation mhz operational unable to boot at mhz heatsinked cpu only no floppy problems no damage during installation mhz operational works with the following two configurations a realtech fpu adaptor card realtech cache card supermac pdqsi b supermac fpu adaptor card supermac video spigot supermac pdqsi mhz operational fuzzy startup sound problems with hi density disks mhz operational fuzzy startup sound heat sink on cpu and chip to right of cpu mhz operational occasional crash at mhz mhz operational using fpu rated at mhz without difficulty mhz operational pds adapter with a spectrum pdqsi graphics card and a videospigot a mhz fpu heat sink on cpu mhz operational mhz failed after several hours mhz operational quicksilver fpu only upgrade mhz operational tried mhz system won t start heat sink on cpu configured with realtech fpu adapter card supermac pdqsi realtech cache cpu on continuously no problems floppy works fine at mb mhz mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu on hours per day mhz operational heat sink on cpu cooling fan no floppy problems at mhz mhz operational bombed soon after startup at mhz with nubus adapter mhz rated cpu ram ns in slots on motherboard mhz operational heat sink added to cpu later no damage while unheatsinked apple nubus adapter with fpu installed mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re number for applied engineering anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call ae is in dallas try or tech support may be on their own line but one of these should get you started good luck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article quod i n menudo uh edu ln sdm sdcc ucsd edu writes the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare i ve seen them listed for around at local computer stores and the campus mac reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s i had mention in a previous article that i was searching for the external drive i did call apple catalog as recommended and they told me the drives were back ordered until may i placed an order anyways and two days later i had a visit from federal express well you can guess how i spent my weekend of course i ended up paying list price but you do get a free copy of pc exchange when you order from the apple catalog you may want to check if they have any internal drives btw an older version of gatekeeper i don t recall which version hung up my mac when trying to access a photocd or audio disk i got the newer version which did mention a conflict with the apple xx cd driver
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted macintosh powerbook looking for a mac pb that s in good condition brand new w warranty would be ideal it should also include the external floppy drive and have at least a meg internal hard drive with meg of ram so if you have a pb that you d like to turn into cash please write me thanks very much billy irvine com billyb bouncer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec on tim keanini was heard to say regarding mac scsi spec tk from blast nntp crl com tim tk keanini tk tk i have a maciifx and i know that it is wired about its scsi chain tk tk i just bought a drive and i need to find out a few hardcore scsi tk question tk tk does the iifx scsi chain want to see active or passive termination tk tk does the iifx scsi spec want me to enable the initiation of the sdtr tk message tk tk what does the iifx scsi spec want as far as parity checking tk tk these are some very good questions for the faq if someone does not tk have time to answer these questions but does know where i can look tk them up please let me know and i will repost the answers for everyone tk to see tk read technote it deals with more than any sane person wants to know about the iifx s scsi tk thanks tim keanini timk broder com or blast crl com tk sound engineer broderbund software tk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chip followup my recently modified quadra with a socket for clock oscillators has now completed nearly hours of error free operation at mhz with a mhz clock oscillator i have also tried a mhz cmos clock and that works as well on the more stupid side i ve discovered you can use a mhz clock and make your q as slow as a centris however a mhz clock which would have yielded a mhz quadra who d want one didn t work at all impatiently awaiting a mhz clock guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	supercard cdrom i need help finding xcmds to control a cd rom drive from aldus supercard the apple hypercard cd rom toolkit does not work aldus has no clue apple has no clue berkeley mug and boston mug won t return any phone calls my local user group has no idea help commercial or shareware is fine please reply by email clee theporch raider net thanks chris lee macintosh consulting america online chris po box graphics interface design compu erve nashville tn digital audio clee theporch raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction yes duo prices have dropped i don t have the msrp reductions though you can find it in a recent tidbits archived at sumex but here s the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem so there joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime jpeg expansion source needed hello we need the code for decompression of quicktime jpeg pict files as they don t conform to usual jpeg compressors which are available in source the code should be in c pascal or modula the code will be used on several platforms to view pictures over isdn perhaps a special hardware will be put around it much less then a mac perhaps only a dsp with some support chips if the code is not available perhaps the algorithm is available to decompress them christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want macweek in article apr leland stanford edu smashman leland stanford edu adam samuel nash writes how do i get a subscription to macweek i want one but i don t seem to be able to find a subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu i just ordered my subscription today call macweek s customer service dept at and quote some plastic if you forget the number it s included in the statement of ownership which is on the contents page of the copy i have a one year subscription costs in the u s canada or mexico i was told my first issue would arrive in weeks leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when he s not using it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony dat retrospect ci problems hi i m having problems tying to get a sony dat drive to work i m using retrospect ci and my only luck with getting the drive to work has been with a mac iici which has now unfortunately gone to another department ideally we want to attach it to our quadra setup i can t seem to get the retrospect software to recognize the media at all when in the devices dialog it can see the dat device but comes up with firstly running secondly media failure and then immediately contents unknown this does not happen with the mac iici setup which simply says ready i m hoping someone else will have had similar problems but found some solution i know some others who have had problems with dat devices and their quadra but they have a mac iici which they can use the symptoms system software is also didn t work with i have tried the following turn off all extensions except retrospect scsi required tested on a variety of machines quadra iisi and lc at least connected no other scsi devices tested all varieties of scsi termination etc replaced the dat unit with a new one yes we got that desperate read the retrospect manual even more desperate replies via email would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance i ll post any solutions to this group cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty of science fax university of melbourne australia my opinions are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article kluskens istari nrl navy mil michael s kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil writes the problem mentioned last is a known quadra scsi problem it was heavily discussed last year and an apple employee pointed out that there was a one byte error in the scsi driver routine for the quadra s at least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was to get an updated driver from the drive manufactor in my case mass microsystems wrote a new driver which fixed the problem on my quadra all that occured early last year anyone know if there is an updated driver for sony dat drives i can t get mine to work with our see sony dat retrospect problems posted in this group but i m also having problems with other new macs cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty of science fax university of melbourne australia my opinions are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading pb i read in a recent tidbits about the possibility of putting a in a pb i am interested in doing so but would like to know more about it does it involve just replacing the that is on the daughterboard or does it involve getting a new daughter board also would the be able to run qt with the pb s screen not pretty i know but possible and of course what would the damage be any info would be appreciated thanks in advance jay fogel
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help on gcc plp ii laser printer cng me utoronto ca charles ng writes i have a plp ii laser printer make by gcc technologies i have problem with a dirty first page the top portion of the first is always smeared with black toner across the page if i print more than one page at the same time the problem does not occur on other pages i cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions or know the phone to gcc technologies the phone number for gcc is i believe i don t have the number for tech support handy alan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra clock chip followup i have replaced the osz to mhz yesterday and no truble at all my quadra now works at mhz stable for more than hours i have also tried a mhz osz but after hour my quadra died i am not sure what was the reason for that but it is to risky to run it to fast most of your quadras should work at mhz without any problems but a safety tip do a backup from your harddisk befor you start to upgrade during my mhz test i damaged my harddisk and had a hardtime to get it working again so once again do a backup befor you start now the speedometer results after replacing the osz speedometer report for menes rainer prepared april machine record version user comment quadra mhz and ram disk mbyte ram mbyte vram system information computer mac quadra cpu mc fpu integral fpu mmu integral mmu color quickdraw bit qd system version finder version d appletalk version laserwriter version d laser prep version not found imagewriter version d rom version c rom size bit depth horizontal dpi vertical dpi primary screen size x physical ram k logical ram k p r results uses mac classic as cpu graphics disk name of hard disk tested ram disk math performance rating pr benchmark results uses mac classic as kwhetstones dhrystones towers quicksort bubble sort queens puzzle permutations fast fourier f p matrix multiply integer matrix multiply sieve benchmark average fpu tests uses mac ii as ffpu fast fourier fpu kwhetstones fpu f p matrix mult fpu test average color tests uses mac ii as black white colors colors colors color test average very interesting are the graphics results graphics couldn t belief this but it is true two points which my cause problems are the mbyte ram solder on the board the are only ns rams and run at the upperlimit with mhz the next part which may cause trouble are the video rams i have the orignal ns vrams from apple in my quadra here you are also at the upperlimit where most of the chips running but it isn t garantied to run most of the other parts on the quadra board running on there o wn clockspeed so they wont make truble the most importaned question is do i neat a new heat sink i would say no after running my quadra for more than hours the heat sink is really cool a mhz with heat sink is mutch warmer than the in the quadra so i didn t see any problems the room temperatur was celsius f if you living in a area were it is hot f c and your room temperatur is not mutch below i would suggest a new heat sink with a ventilator to stay on the safe side hope you will have the same success than i had rainer email menes statistik tu muenchen de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra in article apr yuma acns colostate edu df lance colostate edu daniel philip fagan wrote does anybody know the difference between the quarda and quadra quarda is a popular misspelling of quadra which has a mhz processor the has a mhz and some local buses on the motherboard run faster the video is different also the can run a and i believe a monitor in bit color without a vram upgrade besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video to a monitor with meg of vram and bit with meg hope this helps anand armani edgeway wimsey bc ca edgeways infolink armani edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs anand the views expressed here are mine from firstclass tm by postalunion lite tm from north vancouver bc canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with laserwriter print driver and printmonitor we are having problems with our laserwriter print drivers going bad on various people s machines on our appletalk network on our network people have and versions of the laserwriter print driver we have been solving the problem by reinstalling the print driver but it is time consuming and a real pain the printmonitor software also seems to go bad frequently we have also just been replacing it over and over it seems to keep things running does anyone out there have any ideas about what may be causing the printing software to go bad are there known init conflicts or network conflicts i would appreciate communication about any similar experiences you may have had or ideas you have you could send me an email directly to karens edc org thanks karen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nec fge vs nec fg we were told that the resolution on the fge could only go to x and that the fg could go to x has anybody tried running these higher resolutions somewhere i thought i read that the x on a monitor may make the type too small to read any help would be appreciated steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms where in article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu smedley ecst csuchico edu steven medley writes i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible st tech corp technology blvd suite po box austin tx fax monty solomon po box framingham ma monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available there are no minidocks with math coprocessors available right now and i am not aware of any in development demand appears low for such a device right now but i m sure some enterprising vendor would create one if there were sufficient demand lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re driver for dataframe xp b log onto supermac s bbs and download the drive manager software you will find there if you can t or don t want to call their bbs call their tech support number lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting in article netnews upenn edu jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot well this threads been going long enough i ll add a diferent twist yet another twist i m expiriencing the same kind of problem with my se although not as frequent any suggestions karl johan olsen internet karljo imv aau dk dept of information and media science university of aarhus denmark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip actually there such a thing as an without a coprocessor it s called the lc this is a redesign of the full which people are calling the rc although i have been told by a number of people that motorola doesn t call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware it just isn t there
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes in apr leland stanford edu stchang leland stanford edu steven kuk jin chang writes there seems to be some confusion about educational discounts true apple has different dealer price for educational and retail vendors but those price differences are not that great about maybe but the end user price is more like less it is here in canada anyway for what it s worth my experience has been that the educational discount which my s o has taken advantage of as a teacher is roughly equivalent to the corporate discounts that i m able to get as an employee of a fairly large multi state corporation which is usually at least as good as what one can get at one of the discount computer chains e g compusa for purposes of budget estimation around here we usually just knock around off srp the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc nubus rumors i read in macweek that some developers are getting nubus cards from apple with pre release powerpc chips on them does this mean that when the chip is released those of us with old apples will be able to take advantage of the powerpc risc technology just by inserting a card i don t know anything about hardware so can someone tell me how much of a cludge this would be archon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	internalizing removable drive is it possible to rip an external syquest removable drive out of its external casing and install it into the empty bay slot on a centris i know a special bracket would need to be purchased but is there any power hookup scsi constraints that would prevent it if anyone has done it could they mail me some instructions it doesn t seem to be that overwhelming an undertaking nicholas lamendola he who controls the fork controls the meal of his choice npl lingo psych rochester edu npl merlin cvs rochester edu lard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul i vote for turning them off at night the stress of off on is a little harmful so don t turn it off then back on an hour later etc but turning them off for hours or overnight is a good idea the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat we have a lot of year old machines in the basement that still work but who cares they are off hours a day
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day stubbs hawk cs ukans edu jerry stubbs writes the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time this is pretty standard in portable machines and the same kinds of tricks could be played spinning down disks turning off screens reducing clock speed etc the advantage of this over just turning the thing off would be you don t have to remember to do anything and the machine is still available over the network the tricky part might be in defining what constitutes inactivity certainly you don t want to wake up from sleep mode just because somebody pinged you but you do want to wake up at least the cpu if somebody logs in via a telnet connection i wouldn t worry too much about wasting electricity in the winter months that energy is just getting turned into heat it may not be as efficient a way to heat a building as the central heating plant but it s not too bad in the summer though it s a disaster not only are you wasting that power but you re probably also running the air conditioning to get rid of the waste heat roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu wrote yes duo prices have dropped i don t have the msrp reductions though you can find it in a recent tidbits archived at sumex but here s the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires b ll a mac pb duo bundle w flpy adpt m drive internet michael kwun umich edu i speak only for myself bitnet userw za umichum support a local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disk mount problems i have an external drive connected to my iisi this is never recognized and mounted on system startup i can mount it with the scsi control panel i m running system and everything is properly terminated would anyone have a helpful idea at to the problem douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed since image writer lq was discontinued there is no apple talk printer with continous paper printer i would like to know is there are any possibility to connect an ibm compatible printer to an apple talk net directly or with a net serial hardware and if i need any other software to do it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat i need to add to your message i have a major problem on my hands i have a rodime series ro t external hard drive rodime is out of business and not writing any more drivers in particular drivers compatable with system after talking to rodime they recommended the following hard drive manufacturers and their driver software that were compatable scsi hard drive manufacturer driver software fwb hard disk tool kit fwb hard disk tool kit personal la cie silverlining or higher casa blanca driver software drive if anybody has experience with these driver software packages please reply if there is shareware out there i would like to get my hands on it i would much rather send a good developer the or so because most of the software i mentioned if purchased would cost and respectively thanks in advance bob dohr the association bringing a kind word and a helpful spirit wherever we can we are the association a multi line macintosh bbs in grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet k plus gb files at hst v bis testify bob dohr internet bob dohr f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra clock chip followup i have also moved on to a mhz clock thus far not problems i m not totallysurprised as i ve had q run at mhz cpu clock speed using a vso my mhz rated daystar quadracache got very hot at mhz and would fail previously i glued on a piece of aluminum stock to the hi speed ram chips and it runs cool without problems at mhz the combination is faster than a q
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms for q be careful before buying i purchased x mb pin ns simms for my quadra from chip merchant i ve been very satisfied with them in the past either one alone works but both together fail i called apple for advice and was told that there was a problem with composite simms only non composite simms should be used with the q chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms so q simms need to be both ns and non composite marty sachs usda ars agronomy uiuc msachs ux cso uiuc edu internet s turner hall msachs uiucvmd bitnet s goodwin ave phone urbana il fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter ls driver i have heard that the version printer driver is out for the apple laserwriter ls has ayone heard of how or where to get this driver please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day from article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu by nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax well i don t exaclty know what should be done but what i do is keep my cpu on and turn my monitor off when not in use i do this as much for easing power consumption as anything though turning off the monitor when not in use has the advantage of requiring less ram than a screen saver but it requires more of my memory to remember to turn it off pretty easy to remember to turn it on though instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan d oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re c ugradable to tempest david tsai dt n andrew cmu edu writes is it going to be possible to upgrade a c to tempest that s the current rumor that was started by macweek last month if so how motherboard switch how else would you accomplish this kind of an upgrade probably gonna be expensive right of course this is apple we are talking about here hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris to mhz or mhz paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid paryavi writes i just put a mhz cpu into my centris now i have a math coprocessor but is it possible to speed up the centris to run at either mhz or mhz not without replacing most of the chips on the motherboard the c isn t like the iisi was meaning that the motherboard of the c is actually designeds to run at the speed of the cpu and not designed to run at a higher speed like mhz but be forced to run at the speed of a slower cpu mhz i didn t see any oscillators on the motherboard like the ones on the iisi s motherboard where is the oscillator for the centris there is more than one oscillator if you are talking about the cpu oscillator chip i think that it is located under the socket for the at least this is what i have read in some other posts in this group hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	third party monitor on iisi so what s the deal with the pds slot in the iisi i recently purchased a mac iisi i want to add a non apple monitor to the system i was told that you could buy a degree angled pds to nubus adaptor card so you can fit a standard nubus card into the computer am i mistaken or do have to buy a pds monitor card specifically for the iisi i ve seen the pds monitor cards for the si but they seem expensive and i m not exactly made of money any ideas help clue me in randy l riegsecker barney must die i need somebody to shove disclaimer the opinions expressed here are mine and not anyone else s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction kwun css itd umich edu michael kwun writes and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires by then it might be already cheaper b ll a mac pb duo bundle w flpy adpt m drive same here at the u of mn for that bundle peter internet michael kwun umich edu i speak only for myself bitnet userw za umichum support a local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time i believe that apple sun and a number of other desktop machine manufacturers have agreed with the government to incorporate power saving techniques this is also something that governments in other countries are likely to require in the future so expect to see it this may include the ability for the system to fully power down the monitor via a controllable power outlet and power it back on automatically is this a sell on screen saver software companies goals for idle power consumption have been set at something like watts for the system not including the monitor don t quote me on this note that in many businesses the savings will be substantial especially if you factor in reduced load on air conditioning systems sun did a study that indicated that simply powering off monitors for the night would save the company sun itself on the order of m per year putting other and automatic power saving features in would probably have greater than double that value given that we are seeing more and more reason to leave our work and home computers on getting faxes automatically getting email building power consumption control into all machines has a potential to cut off the national power consumption based on data i heard btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that monitors with power switches on the rear are not designed to tolerate lots of power cycling this may only apply to the monitors we use but might be worth checking if you happen to have a monitor with the switch in back
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts mike having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer is yes at least for the x configuration you can get an adaptor called mac vga q from james engineering and this will let you display x and x if the monitor is capable i think the x requires khz horizontal sync i use this on my sony gives a slightly wider screen than the x adaptor hope it helps a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within in article c w ol if dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip actually there such a thing as an without a coprocessor it s called the lc this is a redesign of the full which people are calling the rc although i have been told by a number of people that motorola doesn t call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware it just isn t there that s what the pseudo disclaimer is supposed to say sorry for the confusion nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question about laser printers there is a bancrupcy sale coming up soon and i wonder if anyone know about these printers olivetti pg canon lbp r nec silentwriter s kyocera laser f which of the above if any has postscript and an appletalk interface builtin please reply by e mail tommy nordgren what is a woman that you forsake her royal institute of technology and the hearth fire stockholm and the home acre f tno nada kth se to go with the old grey widow maker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading a mac plus or se to use a superdrive hello out in networld we have a lab of old macs ses and pluses we don t have enough money to buy all new machines so we are considering buying a few superdrives for our old macs to allow folks with high density disks to use our equipment i was wondering what experiences good or bad people have had with this sort of upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min chung yang leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when he s not using it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re vx centris upgrade price jebg uxa cso uiuc edu johann e beda writes anyone have a price quote vendor for the vx to centris upgrade i ve been quoted a price of till august th after which it will cost this of course doesn t include the trade in rebate of for the vx board thus for one gets a centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price is from the university of illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices falcon microsystems of landover md the sole apple authorized reseller to the federal government has similar open market prices the upgrade is too new to be on general services adminsitration schedule yet joe gurman j b gurman solar physics branch nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt md usa gurman uvsp gsfc nasa gov federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the hatch act therefore any opinions expressed herein are somebody else s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	moniterm vcx on mac which card to use i have a nice vxc moniterm in b w monitor formerly used on an atari st i think such monitors are have been used on macs can someone tell me what mac can use it what card i should get to use it etc this monitor also has a label on the front saying viking and has a db connector
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors factoid fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information diluted ok dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer at large when every one is dead cameron st the great game is finished alexandria va not before hurree babu kim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix in c sku l l news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in this particular case i see no reason to go to the trouble of rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and still i m not aware of any technical reason for upgrading the rom in a iix other than getting a bit clean rom what other features would a iici rom in a iix provide if any there is probably a market for used mother boards as well so they might sell a rom anyway shreve sells them for about i can t justify this for bit cleanliness when mode works
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hook mac modem to ps has anyone ever hooked a hayes macintosh modem up to the serial port on a pc what are the pin outs to do this i have a mac printer cable to hook a db to the mac serial port can i hook the two mini ports together do i have to swap pins thanx in advance scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q way to connect pb iisi p lw ls is there a way to connect a powerbook mac iisi and personal laserwriter ls so that i can not necessarily silmultaneoulsy print from either the iisi or pb and file share between the iisi and pb i know i can get the expensive lw nt upgrade for my ls but i can t afford that thanks mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need latest model developer notes hi does anyone know where i can get the developer notes for the new mac models like iivx lc iii centris thank s for any information please reply by email iwan k gunawan oo internet gunawan envmsa eas asu edu gunawan enuxhb eas asu edu gunawan enuxva eas asu edu uu uu arizona state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms for q be careful before buying in article c w v fce news cso uiuc edu marty sachs msachs ux cso uiuc edu writes i purchased x mb pin ns simms for my quadra from chip merchant i ve been very satisfied with them in the past either one alone works but both together fail i called apple for advice and was told that there was a problem with composite simms only non composite simms should be used with the q chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms so q simms need to be both ns and non composite mb simms do not have to be composite simms although many most mb simms are pin simms allow two memory banks per simm thus permitting the use of mb dram devices the same ones used on mb simms to be used for two mb banks on one simm i can t imagine that it would be cheaper to build an mb simm using mb drams as the mb parts reached and exceeded bit for bit price parity with the mb parts some time ago it s probably possible to build a single bank mb simm using mb parts this could cause problems in a q i m not sure why you d want to do this though as a dual bank mb simm would be cheaper to build than a single bank composite one dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time apple and several other manufacturers have already committed to a monitor design that does just that it was announced along with the new administration s efforts to cut waste and fuel consumption i know that in the buildings where i work gigawatts are wasted by unused always on machines and monitors kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pb and extended keyboard y in article apr otago ac nz grads otago ac nz writes hello i saw this question posted a week or so ago but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd if this would any help gratefully recieved i will summarise to the net if necessary the general consensus seems to be that an extended keyboard or the new ergonomic keyboard with mouse is ok the pb is rated for ma which is apparently identical to the lc and the lc works fine with said attachments thanks very much to those who replied i am now on my way to order a battleship and a mouse john now i wonder about my electric toothbrush p s i am thinking of a pb but i assume that this would apply to all pb s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa or lc in article apr tolten puc cl rcvillab isluga puc cl rodrigo carlos villablanca writes hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic ii performa lc ii performa xx lc iii performa well nothing the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more the computer itself uses far less electricity than a tv monitor depends on the size but one thing not to do is use a self shutdown or power shutdown iron appliance on the same electric line after a new monitor and power supply and modem my wife still doesn t think her iron is at fault she should know better being a bio med engineer brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass
comp.sys.mac.hardware	really stupid monitor question i have a iisi a portrait display and i love it i m using the built in video support so its slow and deals with colors grays so i m wondering if i get a video card how much does this tend to speed up things and will i be able to get more than bits oh i have combicache w fpu does this limit my choices of video cards thanks peace fighting for peace is like f cking for virginity don t just adopt opinions some of you are homeboys develop them but only i am the homeboy from hell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story in article moyman jonathan ecn purdue edu mike moya moyman ecn purdue edu writes what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts first of all i wouldn t advise wasting your time with apple they ll treat you like an idiot and you won t get any answers a personal opinion the safest thing to do is match the svga monitor s scanning rates with apple s rates i don t know apple s video scanning rates but i use the micron xceed s rates as they re a good approximation about cables you just have to go out to someplace like fry s and get a few mac vga cables and try them out i have a viewsonic e and i use an nec adaptor other monitors may use other adaptors i also have a mac x adaptor that tricks system into thinking the monitor is an apple i need to readjust the vertical and horizontal sizes but it works fairly well just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems sideways hd s in article qmir l usenet ins cwru edu kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu t kephart writes in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i asked this question a while ago while contemplating placing my on it s side i received a response from someone at seagate sorry i trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates at the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that a horizontally formatted drive can be later placed vertically with no data integrity problems so is there any problems putting a drive formatted vertically on its side horizontally i got a drive a few years ago with the rubber feet on the side etc and have used it like that since obviously designed for that orientation however it doesn t fit under any of the clever places i can think of to place it so i would really like to lay it flat and put it under a low shelf this is probably not a newer drive and it is only meg but when i bought it it was a large drive for an average user comparable to buying a meg drive today so is my old meg drive as fragile or not as a new meg drive just curious jim melton novice guru email flash austin lockheed com so far as we know our voice mail computer has never had fax an undetected error
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ the most likely explanation may have something to do with the fact that a greater density of information exists on the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one if your running the drive on a mac i would recommend a shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter drivers how to install can someone tell me which of the files that come with dw go where and for what purpose what can be left out for instance if you don t want to do background printing as far as i can remember all you need to do to get your deskwriter up and printing using the driver is to drag the driver itself either serial or appletalk depending on your needs to the system folder you don t need the fonts or anything else if all you want is straight forward bare bones basic printing i don t have anything else installed and can still print on a deskwriter using sys and hp driver tony the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with hp backgrounder help hi everyone i m experiencing a very annoying problem with background printing on the hp deskwriter sys deskwriter driver powerbook when i print from say ms word i see the message spooling to disk but sometimes nothing prints checking my memory map thanks to now menus i see that hp backgrounder has not loaded restarting fixes this it seems to me that hp backgrounder is quitting unexpectedly and that its status as multifinder not aware allows it to do this without my being informed by a message such as hp backgrounder quit unexpectedly have you ever seen this problem before there may or may not be a related problem i have experienced problems in putting my computer to sleep choosing sleep from the finder menu sometimes does nothing today on a whim i checked the memory map and i discovered that hp backgrounder was not loaded restarted reloaded hp backgrounder and i was able to put my machine to sleep as usual just a mere coincidence or is the hp backgrounder crash preventing my machine from going to sleep has anyone seen this problem i m seriously considering the purchase of a stylewriterii because of the poor quality of the hp software please send your answers directly to me and post to the net yours truly marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra in apr edgeway wimsey bc ca armani edgeway wimsey bc ca writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video to a monitor with meg of vram and bit with meg actually the quadra and both have the same scsi controller running at different speed they are not scsi but can support certain scsi commands that take advantage of faster drives the i o processors are present on both machines the q runs its i o bus at mhz while the s i o bus is mhz the quadra supports bit color on all monitor sizes as well as bit up to x resolution it also supports x resolution the supports supports bit at x and does not support x at all vram on the is ns or faster and ns or faster on the john rutirasiri
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macwatch has anybody heard about a thing called a macwatch i saw it on tv a couple of years ago it is a watch with a reviever and a transmitter for your mac the practical upshot is that your mac can page your watch and display a small message my flatmate is off to the states for a week or two soon and i am interested in getting one any info would be appreciated thanx in advance glenn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se bit card does not work with mb in r kve cl news cs tu berlin de ossip cs tu berlin de ossip kaehr writes i have a se and a generation systems bit pds card for a screen it worked great until i upgraded from to mb ram now with sys and mode or enabler it does not boot a tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes i guess he is right early versions of the rasterops cards did not either but they fixed it and people with problems can get a free rom upgrade from rasterops but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works ok with the mb and full graphics what s happening very easy if you boot without the mode control panel then it will disable or rather not reinstall the bit clean patches so when you run ok you must be in bit adressing mode check about this macintosh and see if you havce a mb system thanks a lot for any advice please answer by mail sent seperately ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse d berlin germany tel or email ossip cs tu berlin de povl h pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau dk povlphp uts uni c dk finger me at pope imv aau dk for pgp public key
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra armani edgeway wimsey bc ca anand mani writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions mostly the q does have a scsi controller chip as it s scsi chip but it does not have the chips to use the wide or fast scsi modes and therefore doesn t offer much more in the way of scsi performance over the q it does howrever have a faster i o controller than the q this is where the real speed boost comes from hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good aps experience i just thought i would pass along my experience with aps i recently ordered an external quantum the salesperson was friendly and knowledgeable the order came when promised and the invoice was at the price quoted installing the drive was simple i didn t even have to read the manual the scsi address is set by a pushbutton arrangement i daisy chained the drive from my syquest also from aps and booted up with no problems i m still going through all the shareware that comes on the drive it s a pretty good assortment the drive fan is a bit noisier than i would like but i think it ll be ok the speed seems very good although i haven t run any objective tests it also seems to spin up pretty quickly i can hit the power switch for it and almost immediately power the mac without any problems booting from the drive some observations the case is plastic good quality though while my older syquest case is metal there is one led which is normally green and flickers red as the drive is accessed just a data point rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed go decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that deleted this is a pet peeve of mine i wish companies would put power switches on the front of the equipment if my apple monitor had the switch on the front i would happily power it off at night almost every piece of computer equipment i own use has the switch on the back including external hard drives and modems why i hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed go decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ii slowdowns drg biomath mda uth tmc edu david gutierrez writes in article l sb b w w tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace this happens intermittently to macs in our department ranging from iisi s to a quadra i can end the slowdown immediately by unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac it seems that something on the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect of making our macs slow down to a crawl thank you very much these computers behave exactly like what you re describing now my question i am running on the lowest of all budgets public education how can i analyze this all i need is some sort of packet counter do any exist and where are they thanks again andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day long in article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david p murphy wrote a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors factoid fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information diluted ok dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer at large when every one is dead cameron st the great game is finished alexandria va not before hurree babu kim bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors kept on hrs day long in article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david p murphy wrote a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones here s something to add to the discussion newsgroups misc activism progressive from james p reynolds jpr lehigh edu subject when you re not using it turn it off date mon mar gmt lines research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not actively being used in addition to percent are left running at night and on weekends computer equipment is now the fastest growing private sector use of electricity computers alone are believed to account for five percent of commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent by the year if you are one of those who leave them on after you re done it would be a big environmental benefit if you would just turn it off when you re not using it it only takes a second or two to do also the majority of the power your computer uses is not consumed by the computer itself but by the monitor if you can t turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused by power generation these new computers will save enough electricity to power both vermont and new hampshire and save up to billion u s dollars in annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should be available in one to two years according to the epa studies the energy saved will prevent co emissions of million tons annually the equivalent of five million automobiles also tons of so and tons of nitrogen oxide emissions will be saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please do your part be responsible if you re not using it then just turn it off information herein is partially taken from the information please almanac page and the u s envirnomental protection agency s environmental news please redistribute this message to every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think of archive it and post it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds end
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r tscinn bd srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min none of the suns decs or rs s i ve used have turned off the monitor automatically matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iif iig slot there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers what is it mark law aukuni ac nz m perry faculty of law auckland university new zealand
comp.sys.mac.hardware	active matrix clr pb i know that apple is working on an active matrix color powerbook when is it going to come out i heard on rumor that it will be in two months and another that it will be seen at the macworld expo in boston what s the word jon hutchison jh r andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day from james p reynolds jpr ns cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you re not using it turn it off to multiple recipients of list c l c l psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not actively being used in addition to percent are left running at night and on weekends computer equipment is now the fastest growing private sector use of electricity computers alone are believed to account for five percent of commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent by the year if you are one of those who leave them on after you re done it would be a big environmental benefit if you would just turn it off when you re not using it it only takes a second or two to do also the majority of the power your computer uses is not consumed by the computer itself but by the monitor if you can t turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused by power generation these new computers will save enough electricity to power both vermont and new hampshire and save up to billion u s dollars in annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should be available in one to two years according to the epa studies the energy saved will prevent co emissions of million tons annually the equivalent of five million automobiles also tons of so and tons of nitrogen oxide emissions will be saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please do your part be responsible if you re not using it then just turn it off information herein is partially taken from the information please almanac page and the u s envirnomental protection agency s environmental news please redistribute this message to every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think of archive it and post it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university of michigan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s that chime it happened to my classic ii once at startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like do st mi st sol st do nd or st c st e st g nd c on the music scale and it hanged before giving the happy mac i had to re powerup this was asked before but i can t remember the answer i ve tried to find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but to no avail can anyone tell me what those unusual chimes mean a spurious memory check error thanks willie
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris clock adjustment i was reading a review of the centris in this months macworld and the reviewer said that for you could make an adjustment on the clock speed of the chip and change it from mhz to mhz i haven t heard of this before and i don t think that this is the chip replacement with fpu that i have seen so much talk about anyone have any ideas cwera du edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris clock adjustment the article was probably referring to changing the clock oscillator in a manner similar to that done on quadra s and iisi s i haven t read a report of this actually being done on a centris but supposedly this also works on q q and centris machines
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rgb owners what kind of power cable came with your monitor here s the scoop for the past two years i have been using an se with a sony s and a lapis video card this past month i bought a quadra and am now using the sony on it my se has been shipped home to my father who is planning on getting an apple monitor the trinitron one my question is this what kind of power cord will he get with the apple monitor does it come with two types as i recall one can hook up the power cord of an apple monitor to the back of a machine such as my quadra however for my father s se there is no extra plug which allows use of the se s power supply he needs to plug it into the socket separately so does the monitor come with a cable that will allow him to do this will have to buy a different cable if yes where can he purchase such a cable or apple kind enough to provide both types of cables thanks in advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept of physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg a clark laboratory massachusetts institute of technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge ma woods hole ma x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks in article c wdmk jrn hawk cs ukans edu s abg hawk cs ukans edu unknown class user writes i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass looks like someone left their terminal unattended tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where to get power cord to plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply i have a sony s whch i would like to hook up so that i get its power though my quadra s power supply ie if i had an apple monitor i could plug the monitor directly into the computer so that when i hit the power button the keyboard both the monitor and computer go on and when i shut down both go off is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into my quadra any thoughts and comments would be appreciated thanks in advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept of physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg a clark laboratory massachusetts institute of technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge ma woods hole ma x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r fp innsua mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes in article r tscinn bd srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min none of the suns decs or rs s i ve used have turned off the monitor automatically maybe you should contact your schools officials and make them consider installing the necessary softwares or hardwares that allows the unix works stations to shuts off its monitor when left untouched it does save a lot of energy chung yang matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story the origional bit is missing but long short follows the origional poster asked if he she could use any old vga svga monitor with a centris hence title the answer ot this question is an unqualified yes you can use any old vga svga monitor with a centris you do need an adaptor i use a mac vga q from james engineering to run between the two machines the adaptor i have mentioned will convert a centris to a three row vga svga pin adaptor for your monitor now the special interest disclaimer the above answer is correct for using a vga monitor at x resolution if your monitor will sync to khz horizontal the above adaptor will allow you to choose x resolution i prefer this on my s then you have the question of matching adaptors and sync rates i would advocate calling james engineering because they seem to have a clue as to the comment by the person who said don t bother calling apple because they will treat you like an idiot this is totally untrue apple will treat you like a f king assanine idiot for even considering going third party and if you want this treatment wants you to pay for their thech support line the supposedly compitantly one and then still has no fu clue personal experience also the tech suppport for the vga monitor makers doesn t see to extend to macs sony magnavox in addition to this to find out the info you will have to call dealers unless you can find the sync rates elsewhere as ads like hardware that fits that rate monitor resolutions give the most favorable rating which usually means you can get this if you use a specialized application video card i e well you can get a resolution x on this super smelly sock monitor that will let you display two full pages side by side all you need is our reasonably priced oder eater video board for and it will give you an ultra fast horizontal sync rate of six fast kilohertz and three khz vertical note with the sony at least on the centris built in video board using an x adaptor there is a boarder of an inch to the sides of the image after adjusting the horizontal width as favorably as possible using a x adaptor this can be reduced to about half an inch a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c x x vp usenet ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu cliu silver ucs indiana edu writes from james p reynolds jpr ns cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you re not using it turn it off to multiple recipients of list c l c l psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not more quote deleted it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university of michigan ok i have a question why why do people copy the article and the only new thing they add to the post is there name i m not picking on this person i ve seen a few of these is it just a mistake am i missing something is it some unknown net equette i missed somewhere i skip over all the quoted material since i ve already read it and look for the non quoted material and all i get is the name addition is this supposed to me i agree or i second this or what sorry just wondering if i missed something somewhere along the line
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo memory system slow hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit it s still slow when plugged into a duodock anyone know in general what kind of shortcuts notebook manufacturers take when making notebooks i heard of a dx notebook getting a whopping mips rating a similar desktop machine should be getting about times that i guess avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra marginal video we are having a problem with a quadra that has stumped a couple of techs sent to us by the vendor as well as us this quadra is stuffed with mb ram mb vram and some large disk mb i think what happens is that after a certain variable interval of time the video circuitry loses vertical sync it is quite apparent that the mac cpu is still ok and the problem really seems to lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display is scrolling lik crazy so it s pretty hard to hit menu items we had the original logic board replaced twice now and the same problem has been occurring on all boards although the inteval between occurrences has varied the first board had this problem every about hr more often if the cache was turned off yes off this is the only symptom that is not obviously related to the video circuitry after all the cache is on the cpu right the second board had the problem every about minutes we did not keep it rather we put the original back the current board we have has this problem a lot less often has gone about a week without doing it but did it twice within an hour yesterday the technicians that have come out to try to figure it out seemed pretty sharp and tried a number of sensible things most of which we had previously tried ourselves anyway these included swapping the ram swapping the vram swapping monitors different apple rgb and apple rgb swapping cables disconnecting hd and booting from floppy sacrificing various small mammals here are some other facts when we put a rasterops procolor on the nubus the problem is fixed it does not occur with the internal video or the procolor video out the vendor cannot reproduce the problem back in their shop on the boards that exhibit it in our lab apple is said to be getting a little bit pissed off at shipping us boards that they cannot find anything wrong with and getting them shipped back as faulty according to us here are some speculations i bet that neither apple nor the vendor has tested these boards with that much ram and vram on them simultaneaously which may have something to do with their finding it hard to reproduce the problem though we can reproduce it with just mb of ram so this is probably a red herring the vendor s representative blames metal in your walls claims that our walls have metal in them which interferes with the mac s operation we have another in the lab which works like a charm though it s not in the exact same spot please don t tell me this is probably it i do not want to believe it it s probably not poltergeists since they do not have badges to get past security at the entrance to our site has anyone any ideas please please email as well as posting cause i seem to be spending a lot of time rebooting my mac lately and have a lot less time available to read news thank you in advance carlo tiana nasa ames research center carlo vision arc nasa gov carlo cvs rochester edu carlo white stanford edu we always remember you have a choice carlo vision arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rgb owners what kind of power cable came with your monitor in article r sshinnpvq senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong wrote what kind of power cord will he get with the apple monitor does it come with two types no i recently bought an lc ii with a monitor the monitor comes with the type of power cable that plugs into the switched outlet on the back of most larger macs since the lc ii doesn t have one of these outlets there was an extra standard power cable included with the computer for use with the monitor but it was in the computer box not the monitor box it s not as if the cables are particularly expensive though at the most john werner werner soe berkeley edu uc berkeley school of education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip in article c syk js ie utoronto ca andy ie utoronto ca andy sun writes hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance from what i ve heard the pds slot clock is only mhz to be compatible with the old lc style boards while the fpu socket close to the cpu is clocked at mhz i guess a board designed for the lciii can get a mhz clock from the extended pds socket real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re where to get power cord to plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply in r t finnq c senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong writes is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into my quadra there are two approaches if your power cord is the kind that detaches from the back of the monitor most common you can get a replacement power cord that will go from the monitor to the back of the computer you can get an adpater that connects to the plug end of the existing power cord and provides the proper end that plugs into the back of the computer both cost about the same aprox and are available from many computer stores clone dealers are usually better at having these things and at good prices power cords are standard so you don t have to go looking for some special thing at a mac store
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hardware that fits mail order have anyone dealt with hardware that fits before i have seen their ad in both macworld and macuser and decided to try them when i needed a new disk the result was not satisfactory and i was just wondering if i was just an isolated case i like to send a letter to the president of hardware that fits do anyone know the address is it the same address as the one i return the products to mei mei su software engineer email mms ltx tr portal com ltx corporation meisu netcom com disclaimer this is a personnal statement only nothing official
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius videovision i have an opportunity to buy a radius videovision board for about of normal street price which i believe is due to a change in the board architecture i vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind of serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam to s video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about it in the april th issue does anyone have any information on this board such as is it the one which has been superceeded what about an upgrade if so etc i d be very curious to hear from you thanks b w insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos brian v hughes hades coos dartmouth edu wrote bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes in the official paper i got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called it the duodock plus what paper is that it s been on the price list here at dartmouth since they released it and it has never been called the duodock plus it was a paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one of them and the paper arrived before it showed up on the price list i don t know if it s still called the duodock plus in the price list it could be a mistake by someone at apple sweden mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed hello new to this area so i have read about some upgrades for the lc ii doing some modification to make the thing run faster is the performa about the same as an lc and if so would the homemade speed upgrade work thanks brad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers eric choi p f n z fidonet org eric choi writes can the internal hard drive of the macportable upgraded to larger capacity w is there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option p s i notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org psi makes an internal fax modem for the map portable but asks too much for it retail i d buy an external and save about there is a manufacturer that still makes internal hd s for the portable they re listed in some of the catalog magazines for apple stuff you can find at bookstores if i see it again i ll post it but again you might want to just add a small lightweight external hd built for the powerbooks you d be able to use it with a new computer some day any other mac portable questions i ll have to cry uncle don t blame me i voted for xxxxxxx gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	outbound laptops questions looking for answers since the demise of the outbound company what options would exist for me if i were to buy one of their laptops since the outbounds e etc use mac plus roms won t that severly limit using future applications what is a reasonable price for one of their laptops the prices i ve seen seem extremely high considering the limited choices now how reliable have they proven any answers would be helpful gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in apr gallant apple com steve bollinger buzz apple com writes use the sound manager and work fine on all machines the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it don t be silly using the sound manager on a quadra is very well but using sm on any of the low end machines doesn t simply work for a decent action game since it just steals too much time from the cpu this is a fact by writing directly to the hardware on an se it is possible to have simultaneous channels of sampled sound khz for a cost of approx cycles exactly how would you do that using the sm pray tell the correct thing to do is to use the sm on the machines that can carry that extra load using the sm means and to write directly to the sound hardware on the machines that can t it s not the politically correct thing but from the developers point of view it is christer ericson internet christer cs umu se tel department of computer science university of umea s umea sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires hmm new duo machines to be released sincerely lars lars sundstrom email sund tde lth se lund university phone int dept of applied electronics fax int p o box s lund sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help identifying this card i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots what s that other conncetor on the card is anyone interested in it i can ship it to any cee country sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks from article c wdmk jrn hawk cs ukans edu by s abg hawk cs ukans edu unknown class user i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass saying things like that incline one to believe that you can t get it scsi to work for your setup too bad i ve daisy chained scsi devices off my mac without a problem limit is scsi devices in the daisy chain if it isn t working for you it s really better to state the problem unless all you really intend to do is try to get nasty e mail in that case perhaps you would be better off posting to alt masochistic type of newsgroup callan csd csd uwm edu joel e callan hey why do you think i have the answer n th street may you sit on the tack of success milwaukee wi and rise to the occasion callan csd csd uwm edu joel e callan hey why do you think i have the answer n th street may you sit on the tack of success milwaukee wi and rise to the occasion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simms prices i m looking for the best source for simms in the usa i m not looking for the lowest prices but rather for the best quality simms and the one with the lowest rate of defective simms i know the chip merchant has good prices but they seems to have a high rate of returned simms does anyone know how many simms you have to purchase to obtain quantity discount thank you sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare jeff lab queensu ca peter pundy writes even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga a similar reason is why people at work used to seeing sco unix running on a are suprised when they see my sun at home running faster w a mhz the sun was designed from the ground up for unix the pc wasn t this is why you need a gargantuan processor to run windows the basic design of the box is all wrong would ve been better if ms had put most of windows on a plug in rom card from day one priced at or so people woulda loved it apple had the right idea just stumbled a bit in the execution pete peter l wargo wargopl sun soe clarkson edu e mail saves trees documentation it also makes the enable software x world smaller
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra marginal video in article apr galileo cc rochester edu carlo merlin cvs rochester edu carlo tiana writes we are having a problem with a quadra that has stumped a couple of techs sent to us by the vendor as well as us this quadra is stuffed with mb ram mb vram and some large disk mb i think what happens is that after a certain variable interval of time the video circuitry loses vertical sync it is quite apparent that the mac cpu is still ok and the problem really seems to lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display is scrolling lik crazy so it s pretty hard to hit menu items other info deleted has anyone any ideas please please email as well as posting cause i seem to be spending a lot of time rebooting my mac lately and have a lot less time available to read news are you sure it s not a problem caused by software i ve seen this sort of effect when a runaway program which could be caused by an init conflict for instance accidentally wacks on a register in the video hardware have you tried booting with no extensions and then letting the q just sit there in the finder you might also want to try changing to bit addressing yes i know you can t access your full mb of ram it s just an experiment as the video hardware registers can t be accessed then another thing to try as a recovery measure is to use something like quickkeys to change the pixel depth of the display this reprograms some of the video hardware registers and may allow sync to be restored dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple gc video card a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance joe kasanic i ve had similar problems w other board types and the problem is not a result of the gc board try zapping the pram by holding down command option p r durring startup you will have to reset everything to your previous preferences the date time remain intact but the video board will start remembering it s previous settings anthony d saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hardware that fits mail order i ordered an external floppy drive from them years ago when i placed the order they said it was in stock and would ship the next day a week passed and no drive i called them up and they said they were out of stock and my drive should ship in weeks or so since i needed the drive right away both my internal hard drive and floppy were dead i cancelled my order and haven t dealt with them since chris kidwell ck andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed in article apr dcc uchile cl bherrero cec uchile cl beltran herreros t writes since image writer lq was discontinued there is no apple talk printer with continous paper printer i would like to know is there are any possibility to connect an ibm compatible printer to an apple talk net directly or with a net serial hardware and if i need any other software to do it i ve have not found quite the solution yet the following comes from macuser s minifinders the grappler iisp is a dot matrix printer interface cartridge that emulates the imagewriter lqs includes networking and spooling software that allows multiple users orange micro if you find out any more information please let me know because in the future i have the same problem or if anyone else has the information please post thanks al
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommendation for laser printer i m looking for recommendations for a laser printer it will be used mostly for text by a single user it doesn t need to be a postscript printer any advice would be appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time about as hard as it was to design the color classic since it s monitor behaves in just this manner hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa or lc demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes performa classic ii performa lc ii performa lcii with monitor modem and software performa lcii w monitor modem and software performa xx lc iii performa lciii with monitor modem and software do we detect a trend here people the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc the performas are made to be low cost widely distributed sold at sears home machines not business machines they were developed to compete with the retail outlet home computer market because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around sears is probably going to have the best price around most of the time based on the number they can purchase and stuff like that as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper not really the newer peformas come with what is really a third party monitor that apple has put their name on and called it the performa plus display essentially it is a vga monitor quite cheap hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple gc video card in article apr tcs las vegas nv us elenay creations tcs las vegas nv us anthony d saxton writes a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance you may have been emailed this but the iisi s power supply is not rated to handle the gc board remember when the si came out and everyone complained about it s power supply this is one result of apple providing a low cost computer and i think they got a lot of flack for having a relatively high end computer at the time anyways that couldn t even support their own video board even if this isn t what is causing your problems you might develop one later eric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes it was a paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one of them and the paper arrived before it showed up on the price list i don t know if it s still called the duodock plus in the price list it could be a mistake by someone at apple sweden ah ok i didn t realize that you were talking about an apple division other than appleus appleus being the main division is the one that contains what most people feel are the correct names and configurations for the majority of apple customers and it is generally assumed that you are talking about appleus when you just say apple at least that s how it has always been in this newsgroup all other apple divisions are apparantly free to change names and configurations if they feel like it i know that apple canada does this kind of stuff all the time it s not a mistake it s apple sweden giving a different name to an apple product other than what appleus calls it hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted adb mouse keybd wanted apple adb mouse and keyboard contact paul gribble at above email address asap paul g
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iif iig slot in article apr ccu aukuni ac nz mark perry markp ccu aukuni ac nz writes there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers what is it it is a factory testing slot the test rig connects to the connector and verifies proper board operation kevin s kevin hester disclaimer nothing i say has anything to do kevinh apple com with apple computer the red zone is for portable beer brewer loading and unloading of passenger vehicles only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple s new keybd what can people tell me about apple s new keyboard the one that is designed to be more ergonomically friendly i have begun to experience wrist and hand pains using a standard keyboard and using a powerbook what can people with similar experiences tell me replies to email please paul g
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor pinouts needed i was wondering if someone could send me the pinouts to the apple and rgb monitors those parts of the docs seem to have been misplaced around here thanks a lot for your help kevin kevin o lepard internet lepard mayo edu disclaimer these opinions are mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of the mayo foundation mayo clinic or any other person or institution
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day gary sager gsager heliacal eng sun com wrote btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that monitors with power switches on the rear are not designed to tolerate lots of power cycling this may only apply to the monitors we use but might be worth checking if you happen to have a monitor with the switch in back i m not an expert but having spent much too much of my life looking for the power switch or the brightness control or the de gauss etc etc etc it is my firm belief that the only reason any controls switches knobs whatever in places where they are hard to reach is because the designers put them there deliberately the real question is weather this is because of stupidity or maliciousness charles herbig unable to locate coffee operator halted masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not more quote deleted ok i have a question why why do people copy the article and the only new thing they add to the post is there name i m not picking on this person i ve seen a few of these is it just a mistake am i missing something is it some unknown net equette i missed somewhere i skip over all the quoted material since i ve already read it and look for the non quoted material and all i get is the name addition is this supposed to me i agree or i second this or what sorry just wondering if i missed something somewhere along the line i copy relevant articles like this and post em on local bbses not everyone has newsgroup access kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ in article apr mcontent apana org au thomas n a krebs mcontent apana org au writes the most likely explanation may have something to do with the fact that a greater density of information exists on the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one if your running the drive on a mac i would recommend a shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoriaus first iconic bbs larger drives tend to have multipule platters which can allow adjacent bits to be read in parallel resulting in higher throughput they also have higher spindle speeds which leads to both increased throughput and reduced seek times due to reduction of rotational latency erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter driver v problems in article byrne husc harvard edu laurence byrne byrne scws harvard edu writes has anyone had any success or experience with the hp deskwriter v drivers the new driver has a nice save as default option which claims to record your paper size font substitution settings etc for future has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort such and such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory or am i the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd question hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd any comments thanx michael m savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr d hamburg germany internet h sav dsyibm desy de decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help identifying this card in article c xpzk f imag fr ibaa oueichek oueichek imag fr writes i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots it probably won t work with any other lc the ones i have for the lc ii are rev d no it won t work in the iisi s pds slot since it s a pds while the lc has the pds the iisi and se share the same kind of card what s that other conncetor on the card that s the baset ethernet connector chad e jones these are the days you might fill with network manager laughter until you break these days you ucla physiological science might feel a shaft of light make its way cjones physci ucla edu across your face and when you do you ll voice know how it was meant to be see the signs fax and know their meaning maniacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime in article apr nmt edu changw nmt edu willie chang writes it happened to my classic ii once at startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like do st mi st sol st do nd or st c st e st g nd c on the music scale and it hanged before giving the happy mac i had to re powerup this was asked before but i can t remember the answer i ve tried to find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but to no avail can anyone tell me what those unusual chimes mean a spurious memory check error thanks willie those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight
comp.sys.mac.hardware	swii on se system or i m planning on getting a stylewriter ii for my mac se mb ram hd two k floppy drives do any of you out there have any recommendations as to whether running system is better or worse than switching to i don t do much real work on this machine any more but would like to keep it for word processing using word and don t see much advantage to going to word since it is slower any help or comments would be appreciated thanks in advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due in article apr msc cornell edu maynard leah msc cornell edu maynard j handley writes does gx take the place of bit qd or add to it right now bit is kinda aesthetically a pain in a few places because of hacks upon hacks to maintain compatibility with original qd i think of things like where you have to cast cgrafports to grafports and such it would be a lot cleaner to ditch this entire mess and start over do we get that maynard sorry for the delay in replying your message only showed up today apr on apple com quickdraw gx is not a replacement for quickdraw the two of them live quite happily together you may write an app that only uses gx if you want or you may write a hybrid app that uses both suptayoo dave
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hp deskjet c will it work i am boring my sister hp deskjet c for the weekend and i was wondering in their was any drivers for it available some where that would allow me to use it with my mac se i have a copy of macprint but i do think that i have a driver for the c i would be happy to get it working in black white but if there is away to get the color working that would be better any ideas someone regards robert r hardesty hardesty meiko com customer support engineer tele meiko scientific corporation fax trapelo rd waltham ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re upgrading a mac plus or se to use a superdrive in article apr andromeda rutgers edu murray andromeda rutgers edu murray karstadt writes hello out in networld we have a lab of old macs ses and pluses we don t have enough money to buy all new machines so we are considering buying a few superdrives for our old macs to allow folks with high density disks to use our equipment i was wondering what experiences good or bad people have had with this sort of upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu murry why don t you just shell out a couple more dollars and get a floptical they can read high density disks mb as well as flopticals mb the price of flopticals right now range from s s sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question double speed performance from a cd drive does not require scsi interfacing the resultant kbps speed is well within the transfer rate of an lc in other words i believe you have been given incorrect information
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski writes hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi wrong the cd external is just a plain ol scsi device the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need no multisession capability and double speed are two different thing its just that the newer cd rom drives have both capability multisession means that when you put more pictures on a photo cd after the first session the drive can read and display them double speeds just transfer any type of data excluding sound at around double the speed which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd cd is not multisession capable this means that you lose the ability to add any more pictures after the first time must buy a new cd finally since the cd is not a double speed drive it will require twice as long to transfer data excluding sound michael m savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr d hamburg germany internet h sav dsyibm desy de decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems in those area codes macvalley online burbank ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca bps hollywood ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca and here is all of california unformated sorry middle earth anaheim ca byte out of the apple benecia ca planet bmug berkley ca macvalley online burbank ca gentle rain forum claremont ca cyberspace bbs culver city ca allnet cupertino ca the boy s club cupertino ca meme net fresno ca sierra mouse trap grass valley ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca the public bbs half moon bay ca bps hollywood ca imagine net irvine ca enet la canada ca guerilla symbiotics la verne ca macrocosm livermore ca onenet los altos ca macisland los angeles ca macshasta mt shasta ca foundation newhall ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca gooey bbs point mugu ca servant christian bbs redondo beach ca sbamug redondo beach ca a ez ok san diego ca this is not emptv san diego ca harry s bbs san francisco ca bare bones bbs san jose ca city connection san jose ca macdaze santa barbara ca mac magic santa barbara ca crumal s dimension santa clara ca casa del cyborg santa cruz ca beacon comminque simi valley ca channel z simi valley ca jake and the mac man solona beach ca iguana bbs sunnyvale ca vizability walnut creek ca jason the author s opinions are independant of those of adrenaline online adrenaline online firstclass charlotte vt adrenaline com fido onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs of files dedicated to mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due in article r bi s b apple com opstad apple com david opstad writes sorry for the delay in replying your message only showed up today apr on apple com quickdraw gx is not a replacement for quickdraw the two of them live quite happily together you may write an app that only uses gx if you want or you may write a hybrid app that uses both suptayoo this is something i asked before but i don t think i got an answer or maybe i lost the answer or maybe it s just an obvious question will the gx stuff on line docs etc be available on the develop cds or will it only go out to people in the developer s program and such just curious steve lane
comp.sys.mac.hardware	first tech has anyone dealt with first tech based in austin tx if so what has your experince been thanks james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski writes hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi this is completely false the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need this is also false what you need for multisession capability is multisession capability which is based on the firmware and electronics not the drive speed i ll admit though that i have not seen a multisession capable drive that isn t double speed which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd the above proves to be false any comments the apple cd is an excellent double speed multi session photocd capable drive so are drives based on the slightly faster toshiba xm some companies selling such drives are spin peripherals a bargain at and pli a company i hate and relax technologies a company i know little about other than that they are a longtime player in mac mailorder which is usually a good sign the nec cdr is also a good choice nec s own mechanism i think clubmac sells it for around thanx your welcome ooh but now i see your from germany most of the mailorder info does you little good i guess if not spin peripherals club mac relax tech nothing wrong with the apple though which is based on a sony mechanism and speed identical to the nec the toshiba s speed advantage is very slight in average access time a minor plus and in data transfer rate a slightly more important plus good luck mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my is working great i haven t heard of any problems sounds to me like your dealer doesn t know what he s talking about it s pretty irresponsible to not reccomend the centris on the basis of problems with one machine recommending the iivx over the lciii doesn t make a lot of sense either if this person is so convinced the is buggy have they talked to apple about it or are they just assuming it s a problem with all of them terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	unknown mac board national instruments nb dma i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out thanks a lot kevin um i forget kmradke iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple s new keybd i use the new keyboard with a iifx and i like it i am not a touch typist so some of the advantage is loss on me but there is difference and less stress on my wrists dan dan stratton stratton cwis unomaha edu macs mercedes and money too much is not enough my views are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple mb hd in powerdrive ext case i d like to install an apple quantum mb hard drive taken from a iisi in an external powerdrive box from hard drives international that currenty has a dead conner mechanism in it have you done this or do you know how if so could you please walk me through it in as much detail as possible please email me directly if anyone else is interested in this email me and i ll forward responses to you if enough people want instructions i ll post a summary within a week or so thanks in advance bill krauthammer f ehg umiami ir miami edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski wrote hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd any comments thanx your source is wrong the double speed cd is still slow compared to a typical hard disk the lc can easily handle the scsi transfer rate of the cd none of the current macs even the quadras support scsi unless you get a scsi nubus card you don t have to have double speed to use photocd it s just faster reading images off of a disk i think that the cd can handle photocd but only single session the cd can do multisession photocd paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine deleted so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too a lot of the time when you re dealing with someone who has no financial interest in selling you the machine you get a lot of opinion as opposed to factual information etc what it sounds like to me is that this guy has had an experience with one flaky centris and formed an all encompassing opinion on the rest of the s i ve seen lots of people who frustrated me to no end because they refused to believe any other mac xyz would be any good since their experience with one machine with a mac xyz had been bad their loss eh andrew w duthie aduthie css itd umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re radius videovision in article wier csci wiermac etsu edu wier merlin etsu edu bob wier wrote i vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind of serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam to s video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about it in the april th issue oops got home and re checked and found out that it isnt the radius video vision which was mentioned as having problems none the less i still have a chance to buy one relatively cheap can anyone say how well it seems to work and if there has been a newer model introduced accounting for the price reduction thanks and thousands of apologies to radius insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	none i would like to find out about the adb connector on the back of the macintosh powerbooks after seeing several products that use it for powering devices on the powerbook i also thought up of something to power from the adb connector the keyboard mouse connector does anyone have spex on it i know it has voltage on it and a serial i o of some sort if some kind soul could tell me the way you talk to the mac through it ie packet info it would be appreciated greatly on a second note what are the pin outs of the mac powerbook modem connector i have would like to know which pins are v data etc again thanks charles charles purwin internet purwinc woods ulowell edu actually unix is a very user friendly system its just that it is particular about which users it chooses to be friendly with the oracle programmers and programs alike need die gracefully upon failure and exit with no system disruption
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re datadesk keyboard centris fix hi terry its me again i couldn t agree with you more i finally received my datadesk keyboard a month after sendng it to datadesk to have it checked they didn t tell me over the phone that you had to wait before pressing the shift key to disable extensions actually they did but not until a day before my keyboard arrived but a month earlier they were of no help at all i really think they need to put a disclaimer on their keyboard manual david
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz clock oscillator where in my quest for speed i ve run into a problem mhz and mhz clock oscillators are available but i haven t found any speeds between and mhz for further testing fox electronics can make custom oscillators but if anyone knows a source cheaper than osc please let me know some and mhz units would complete my speed trials on the old q guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r gis e calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith wrote i wouldn t worry too much about wasting electricity in the winter months that energy is just getting turned into heat it may not be as efficient a way to heat a building as the central heating plant but it s is there any such thing as in inefficient heater chris ellens ellens bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo memory system slow in article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit huh where did you get this idea from i think you got this backwards the duo s memory is faster than its equivalent desktop machine by and the rest of the powerboks i think the explanation for this was that it can refresh faster in instead of cycles i believe things that could affect performance would be factors such as use of functions enhanced in the fpu which the duo doesn t have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences in speed are likely to be influence by the software you are running what kind of screen depth you are running etc espen ps the duo is bit through out
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss in article apr adrenaline com hyerstay adrenaline com jason hyerstay wrote i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems in those area codes macvalley online burbank ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca bps hollywood ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca don t forget the lamg los angeles macintosh group bbs it s the bbs for the largest mac only user group in the country now that bmug is multi platform the number is macs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi cable for sale i have a brand new never used inch mac to scsi cable for sale i m asking for shipping tell me if this is too high i don t think it is tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need device ntsc video scsi bus has anyone heard of a scsi device that can capture video we need some sort of device that can capture about frames or so per second and work off the scsi bus the idea is to use it for some sort of video conferencing application if i told you all that went down it would burn off both your ears these thoughts are only my own chbeck anl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc logitec hand scan on mac i have the logitech hand scanner for the mac it uses a scsi interface box that the standard scanner unit plugs into i have tried my friend s ibm hand scanner with the scsi box and it works see if you can get logitech to sell you the scsi box by itself warning most of the cost of mac handscanners is contained in the scsi interface box so it could run up to around when i upgraded my old style scanner to the new gray scale model it cost they just gave me a new scan head and software the box was the same the gray scale scanner interface runs about making it around for the interface collin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical kills superdrive i recently bought a pli mgbyte floptical drive and i was very happy with it until i tried to use it to format a hd diskette i put the hd floppy in my superdrive to check that the floptical had formatted it correctly and now my superdrive refuses to recognize any floppy it says this disk is unreadable and asks if i want to format it even original systems floppies from apple nor will it format the disks if i try to initialization failed strangely enough the floptical still reads both the mb and hd disks but i cant look at my k floppies and if i have a crash i m screwed because the floptical can t be used as a start up disk pli has been unresponsive any ideas has this happened to anyone before i was looking for an inexpensive storage solution and now i am looking at an expensive repair help respond to this thread or email mfeldman acs bu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front this is a pet peeve of mine i wish companies would put power switches on the front of the equipment if my apple monitor had the switch on the front i would happily power it off at night almost every piece of computer equipment i own use has the switch on the back including external hard drives and modems why i hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon it is just extra wire and work to put the switch in front usually the easiest place to put the switch is wherever the power cord enters the machine and people hate power cords on the front i prefer a power strip
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter ii dying i bought a stylewriter ii a couple months ago and lately when i print something i notice white lines or gaps running through the line being printed it s almost like the paper is advancing a smidge too far when advancing lines i replaced the ink cartridge thinking it might be the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what s the best way to get rid of it brian s davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu rochester institute of technology bitnet bsd ritvax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within the price you have on the seems very good i too would like to know where it is from if it is not giving away secrets thanks alan from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi i have done several of these upgrades about iisi s and quadra and the best thing to use would be some sort of heat sink compound if possible you should look for the silicon free stuff there s a comany who makes the stuff called tech spray their address is p o box amarillo tx you should be wary in using most kinds of tape and definately don t use duct tape that stuff is for ducts when using the heat sink glue or compound only use enough to fill the small space between the heat sink and the cpu mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sad mac code f i believe that that would be the same as a system error since there is no error then i would guess that it would be a error which is a font manager error of error during font declairation i would assume that the system that s on the floppy that you are trying start up on has a corrupted font in it or something like that mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i ve turned my monitor on and off with the cpu running many times each time i wonder what i am doing to my cpu by directly hooking in such a high current draw on its lines while it is running does this put a substantial spike on the power line could one possibly lose data or damage equipment
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms for q be careful before buying i have already purchased pin simms for a quadra from memory direct on march how can i tell whether or not they are composite simms as a rule does memory direct ship composite or regular simms thank you gary l gray engineering mechanics astronautics university of wisconsin madison gray cmgroup engr wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re unknown mac board national instruments nb dma in article c ygdq mi news iastate edu kmradke iastate edu kevin m radke wrote i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out it s made by surprise national instruments bridge point parkway austin tx anonymouse ftp at ftp natinst com their catalog lists the nb g as follows fetch and deposit dma controller channels ieee interface with data rates up to kb sec with dma and programmed i o transfers bit counter timer channels rtsi bus that s the connector on the top of the board it links it with other national instrument boards list price of the board isn t in later catalogs it has been superceeded by the nb dma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my centris is working perfectly there is one problem that i have noticed fastback ii backup utility does not work the strange thing is that it works with my friend s most of the time however it never works with my machine i assume it is some sort of software problem and not hardware related saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re unknown mac board national instruments nb dma kmradke iastate edu kevin m radke writes i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out thanks a lot kevin it is a data aquisition board for the mac ii series it is called the dma board with gpib interface you may call ni at ieee to find out more about it hope this helps saiid paryavi saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	in defense of performas was re performa or lc from article apr desire wright edu by demon desire wright edu not a boomer in article apr tolten puc cl rcvillab isluga puc cl rodrigo carlos villablanca writes hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic ii performa lc ii performa xx lc iii performa well nothing the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert hmmm that s not quite right the performa is real darn close to the iivx but a better buy imo i also don t think they are so much a low cost business solution but a low cost home solution why else bundle at ease among other things hardly a business application what do you mean by no retail price quite the contrary i think the price is darn near the same all across the country that again imo was one of the selling points of the performas ie no haggling required kinda like the saturn car of the computer set one price medium performance ready to go when i shopped for my performa cd the difference between sears sigh montgomery wards silo sigh circuit city sigh and bizmart sigh couldn t have been why i chose one over the other was based solely on availability and a friendly salesman who went the extra mile when did you last hear that about someone who sells apples admittedly except for montgomery wards and i suspect i was just lucky all of the salesfolk i spoke to didn t know didly about the computers peecee or mac but then neither did any of the apple dealers i spoke with if you would ve told me a year ago that i would buy a macintosh from montgomery wards i woulda laughed for a long long time go figure i m real happy with my performa oh and i bought the apple performa plus monitor vs buying rd party happy with that decision as well i walked in plopped down some cash and walked out with a spankin new computer the day before christmas instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan d oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article apr alleg edu comp sys mac hardware smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day nope i keep my mac running all the time since it also acts as a usenet node and exchanges mail and news every half hour i run uaccess and receives all my faxes i do turn off the monitors hooked up to it they produce more heat than i want it can be warm in my garage office in the summer i ve got one of those handy power control centers at fry s to i just flip the switch in front when i start or stop working by the way this strategy seems to be somewhat endorsed by apple since their new color classic will turn off its own monitor after a certain length of idle time michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers of voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in r oqcinnh c stimpy css itd umich edu aduthie mudskipper css itd umich edu andrew duthie writes in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes is your c working just great or is it buggy too a lot of the time when you re dealing with someone who has no financial interest in selling you the machine you get a lot of opinion as opposed to factual information etc what it sounds like to me is that this guy has had an experience with one flaky centris and formed an all encompassing opinion on the rest of the s i ve seen lots of yes that is what it sounds like to me too but before i spend da bucks i want to make sure i m right i do have e mail from a self confessed apple hater listing a few common problems with the c but nothing i can t get fixed under warranty so anybody else great or lousy jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu mine works great so far hasit s mehta university of rochester primus sucks hm b uhura cc rochester edu i do believe in captain crunch for i am the frizzle fry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga and powerbook ok here is my question i want to hook up my powerbook to a svga monitor but i do not want to buy the powerbook dos companion can anyone tell me the exact cable i need to connect them if there is such a cable can i purchase it from macwharehouse or some computer store if i must buy the cable from james engineering how much do they run and how can i get a hold them i guess that was more than a question thanks in advance for any replys john schrieber e mail schriejh cnsvax uwec edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desi pb upgrade couldn t replacement become expensive david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi modem problem ii the first problem was the sound i tried the m but then even the logon was muted i don t want that any other suggestions for that hissing the second is really strange first i kept mentioning that fc slowed down all the time and took too long well i just logged on with extensions off and i didn t have any slowdown also last time i was online i quit which usually disconnects and quits it disconnected but it wouldn t quit i had to force quit and then when i launched fc again it said the modem port was in use this is really strange i thought it might have to do with fax software or the restart could have reset the modem port a more likely explanation so any suggestions david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help on gcc plp ii laser printer the tech support line for gcc is from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re torx t screwdriver in article c j k o austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago when i owned a plus and wanted to upgrade its memory i just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like it included an anti static i ve had success just jamming a standard screwdriver in the slots banging it in with a hammer and twisting away then i throw the darn things away and put real screws in there methinks they did this just to sell us the damn screwdrivers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors but when i m not using it i m using it in article c x x vp usenet ucs indiana edu cliu silver ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu writes the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used this is a bad idea my machine is on hours a day but it s actually doing things hours a day i use it as an all purpose alarm clock scheduler i ve got routines that run in the middle of the night phone calls it makes during the day when i m out if your machine is on hours a day then you can count on it to be working hours a day i could call it from work and download a file that i might need i could call it from work and have it turn the lights on if i m going to be late oops more wasted electricity but conversely i could have it turn the lights off heck i suppose i could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when i get there oh well nevermind i m just babbling
comp.sys.mac.hardware	which powerbook to buy hi i own a iisi and i m considering buying a powerbook can anyone give me a listing of all the models and tell me what i m looking for i e passive matrix vs active memory sizes upgradeability internal modems disk size if you could provide some prices too that would help i m not informed enough on powerbooks to know how well they operate i have been following the posts on some of the problems that have been encountered such as the trackball not working in the horizontal i would appreciate the list as well as any advice you may have thanks in advance kordi a wichita state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can mac superdrives read unix disks does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix i e next in disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi re the mhz iisi i used the radio shack heat sink compound solution with no clamps works fine the caution holds though don t tilt your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky i ve been playing with a centris for the last couple weeks the only problem that i have seen is that a couple of the applications i run are incompatible with the s processor cache so i have to run with it turned off actually the main thing i don t like it is that it doesn t have a software powerup powerdown and the power switch is directly under the floppy drive i haven t hit it thinking it would eject the disk but some tired night i m going to be really upset with that design decision in all no problems with it floppy and printing have been just fine printing is done across a localtalk net not a directly connected printer bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info wanted upgrading se power supply hello netter i want to uprade the power supply of my se in which a bit color card is installed i know crc components inc deals the compatible power supply of se manifactured by power plus systems does anyone know their phone or fax number of them please reply me by e mail thanks kensuke nakajima
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my is working like a charm in fact if s are flaky i would consider it a great computer even if i had to return a couple to apple to get a good one samuel christian zehr zeh midway uchicago edu bio computing labs whitman e th st chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	building a simple appletalk repeater i have a small network running in my dorm at school and i am kind of worried about the length of the wires and the way that i have run it i was wondering if anyone might have some schematic or at least some ideas on how to make some sort of simple appletalk repeater i m not so interested in making actual zones and zone names just a way to isolate different branches of the network does anyone have any ideas on what could be done thanks alot dave sugar udsugar mcs drexel edu st rjr dunx ocs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tones o death hi i just test installed kanjitalk on my iici and got a black screen a way sick looking mac icon and when hitting the programmers reset a tone sequence that i guess is the infamous tones of death i was able to reboot off a floppy removed the japanese system and set up the system folder on the hard drive to get system back now have no overt problems with the mac any idea what caused the tones i forget the numbers but fff comes to mind if it is some self diagnostic why would an older system version catch it and not i ll be moving up to and worldscript by and by thanks in advance hiroki hiroki morizono department of biochemistry university of minnesota fax gortner avenue hiroki limerick cbs umn edu st paul mn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stylewriter ii dying in article apr ultb isc rit edu bsd ultb isc rit edu b s davidson writes i bought a stylewriter ii a couple months ago and lately when i print something i notice white lines or gaps running through the line being printed it s almost like the paper is advancing a smidge too far when advancing lines i replaced the ink cartridge thinking it might be the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what s the best way to get rid of it brian s davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu i had a similar problem with my stylewriter i the original have you tried cleaning the print heads with the swii driver it s and option in the print dialog box sometimes i had to do it several times to get the crud out yes it wastes ink but it beats those white annoying lines another idea is to print a couple of pages with just a big black box it can help to get the ink flowing good luck beth corbo corbo lclark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime in article r dcm nac fnnews fnal gov b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight i remember a simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that is this was circa i think cheers e eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren t my rules come to think of it i don t have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lab help interesting delema for all those out there my school is discussing installing a mac lab of to stations for our bio to classes to do a study with pig disections no joke here is the deal we can get this grant to do a study on if it is more feasible to do a disection via the computer or via the real thing my problem is i was somehow drawn into this project being done by students who want to go mac but know nada about them being the man mac man on campus guess who they came to so i wnt to know what would probably be the best hardware to fill the follwoing list right now we are looking at the c and the vx platforms ok here it goes we are using cd rom so ought we go with the internal apple cd roms offered as options in the and vx or go external it is a matter of price and reliability the second being very important how much ram i was thinking more leaning towards what do you think ok called apple educational discounts and they said their keyboard extended is is it better to go with the apple and their long time great wear and tear record or is there a rd party extended keyboard that is just a reliable price printers one color printer we are presently leaning towrds the thermal wax tektronic e or i probably the e as we are going to limit access so we don t needed the i s networkability so what do you think in terms of color printers different brand kind dye sublimation ink jet price companies s also we are looking to get a laser printer or such to network into the whole lab for noraml printing the fornt runner is the apple pro is that right don t have my notes here at suggestions we have kids using these things all day if this lab goes through and they know nothing about it for the most part it has to be reliable easy to maintain and economical ie not high priced paper cartidges etc finally and this is my little dig into the project what about netting these things we have ether nearby and i would like to slap the macs on the net but server individual ether forget about it it is going to be astronomically priced and the school is going to laugh at you when you ask them little more info i am a poli sci major who just happens to know alot about macs but this is a bit out of my league not to mention i don t have the time to go and look for all of this stuff so i am hoping the collective resources and intelect of the net can help has before shameless plug buy empower great security program disclaimer this post is not and will never be supported by my university they do not condone in any way my using this media to illict info this is a proj by bio majors so they re the real persons anyinfo please send to the email above or to make it real clear rmwbb wittenberg edu and damn i hope my editor is alive when i get done typing s there is not another stupid blank post i reserve the right to claim all this info as mine and use it to get everything i want form my universities red taped administration this info may be used for blackmail purposes and for obtaining undo amounts of praise and god like status this info may also be used to get credits i probaly really don t deserve that is the ned of it any questions and thanks ahead of time once again taping the collective genius of the internet scott d sauer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	flaky large memory simms on s in the last two weeks i have the following problem on two s has a mb simm and the other a mb simm both are about months old bought from different vendors and installed by different people both computers begin crashing frequently locking up and ultimately the memory chimes crashes would almost always occur if you moved the screen and sometimes would occur when you weren t even touching the computer in both cases taking the machine apart taking the memory out and putting it back in solved the problem for awhile but then it would comeback my marginally educated guess as to what s happening is that larger simms are lopsided in that the insertion point is sort of a pivot point and after time they begin to move about possible because of pressure on the keyboard or something anyway has anyone else had such a problem or solution if somehow you could support the other end of the simm to prevent it from moving i ve had no problem for the past weeks by replacing my mb simm with a mbsimm although this is not desireble solution please email any resp and or post if usefull to the rest of the world ted ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recs on mac video system cards software what would be a good platform for some fairly basic video work of the following nature reading real video in for playbak in various app s minnutes in length basic editing features for said video rearange sequences adding grapic slides from something like power point etc i m not to familiar with this stuff but would like a good system with crisp performance it s for educational promotional things so the video quality should be decent i m thinking tempest or cyclone big drive loads o ram floptical or mb optical however i m not to sure of the various cards and software thats out there please email any responses thanks ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii or used iici which should i get i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here s what i ve thought of the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower so which should i get erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here s what i ve thought of the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower so which should i get erik erik cheshire oxy edu yes the iici has bit clean roms either model would be a good choice another option get a new iici from a dealer that hasn t sold out yet also don t forget the performa which i believe is the same as an lc iii but may be packaged with more goodies for a better price
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity how important is this how many nubus cards do you have plan to acquire how much memory do you really need i ve got a ci and mb of ram that s plenty i also have a bit graphics card on the nubus i m a sucker for pretty pictures i think the lciii can have a bootable ramdisk in memory which a ci can not have at least not out of the box the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case the ci is bit clean i solved the sound input problem with a macrecorder but that s gotten to be a fairly expensive solution now that macromind owns macrecorder performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower the actual difference is probably not worth worrying over so which should i get depends on the price you can get the ci for educationally speaking the lciii here at fsu can be had at just under add in roughly for a monitor last i d heard an mb lciii simm went for i think you re in a win win situation no matter what you decide you ll most likely be happy with it james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	chosser gives blank screen i am running system on a centris i have not been able to setup my printer yet because when i open chooser i get a blank screen i do have all kinds of print drivers but none shows up i even do not get a port iconn either it is just one big blank screen your help is very appreciated btw i did rebuild the desktop but that did not help either bizhan bizhan netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	newlife and hard drives giday netters just got a used newlife accelerator with fpu and i was wondering about a few points anyone know the current driver version for it can it handle the bit grayscale card if i get the video option why would it be hating my hard drive can t use the accelerator and hard drive at the same time do i need a new driver on my drive what make thanks jason blakey ug cs dal ca he s big he s purple he s your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	oops probably should of been more specific on the newlife here s my system desc megs on the main board on the accelerator board mac plus with the most recent roms d trying to run system but would like to run the hard drive is a jasmine works fine if i start up with the accelerator disabled i also seem to get the problem of when i try to start up from floppy with the hard drive disconnected all i get is the disk loading but the screen is black except for a happy mac in the middle and it never gets anywhere jason blakey ug cs dal ca he s big he s purple he s your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get according to what i saw in a store today the performa is not the same as an lciii it only has a mhz while the lciii has a mhz correct me if i am wrong because it is possible that the dealer may have forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer dealers who sell the performa are known to have about as much knowledge about macs as i do about dos machines saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need a button mouse help can anyone recommend a button mouse that is compatible with macx and quadra if so can the buttons be programed to say cut paste etc can anyone suggest a supplier the only button mice i know exist are logitek aust injan anorus aust mac direct are these ok for the above configuration please reply me directly regards christopher welsh deakin university chris welsh department of computing and maths cris aragorn cm deakin oz au everybody has enormous potential if only you could see what i can see
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iifx for sale for sale mac iifx with the following config mb s ram mb hard drive mb floppy drives extended keyboard mouse apple bit video card or best offer all you need is a monitor to complete this system thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story in article ofpiuyk wc a aw g andrew cmu edu am o andrew cmu edu alexander samuel mcdiarmid writes having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer is yes at least for the x configuration you can get an adaptor called mac vga q from james engineering and this will let you display x and x if the monitor is capable i think the x requires khz horizontal sync i use this on my sony gives a slightly wider screen than the x adaptor i am using a nec fg with my centris the cable adapter was provided by nec you have to call to get this free adapter i am also sharing it with my using a switch box and extra cables my questions how do you tell if it is x or x that was displayed or how do you change the mode resolution is there sw for this or something i have to do with the hw i am assuming i am getting x since i have m vram and the fg can display x with my nicholas pang nyp cd amdahl com amdahl corporation nyp outs ccc amdahl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can the iisi do it yourself acceleration be done on a iici i was wondering if what many of you did to accelerate your iisi s from mhz to mhz and beyond can be done to a iici ie from mhz to mhz stephen tseng st cornell edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where i can buy a new lcii i want to buy a lcii yes lcii not lciii none of the dealer seems to have them anymore does anybody know where i can buy this beast i wanted with standard keyboard package please let me know thanx aravind s melligeri system administrator asm mevax psu edu dept of mechanical engg off pennsylvania state univ res
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd audio cd scsi commands hi does anyone out there know how i would get started on writing a device driver for the apple cd cd rom drive which can read audio cd formats out through the scsi bus thanks avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare the at the same clock is not as fast as the at the same clock speed the also has much better floating point unit now the dx is faster than the at mhz but for your reference the at mhz gets mips while the at mhz gets mips
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modems simple question d i am going to purchase a modem with a s r fax capability currently i d am considering suprav bis or global village teleport gold d d the global village averages about more is there an advantage d d concerning fax do i need to be present when there are incoming fax d i e will the modem software recognize an incoming fax and store the d information once received can i use mac applications on the image d my telephone line seems pretty stable and i have the supra as well works great but with every passing day i fall behind on how many great s are out zoom is out of the question from what i m hearing at t has a great product from what i hear and the sportster is really cheap now too if you want to receive a fax your computer will have to be on but not the monitor and of course the modem you can set the number of rings that will receive the fax on a specific ring you set with fax stf software it s entirely up to you how to arrange that i ve had faxes sent to me which is great but i ve been home to set it i don t have a need to set fax receiving up all day also i hear there is a device that can channel all incoming phone signals for about rumor also that the phone company can hook you up with the same gizmo for about if that s what you need best of luck and write back if you d like more feedback freddie clinton the tax man cometh cometh cometh keeps on coming roman brice internet roman brice f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can mac superdrives read unix disks in article apr news yale edu warren delano warren laplace biology yale edu writes does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix i e next in disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu i don t know the answer to your direct question but if the mac superdrive can read ms dos disks can it then you can transfer files between the next and a mac by using ms dos formatted disks since the next can read write that format and if you re interested in transferring files you can also do it over the serial port using kermit cheers avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo memory system slow in article c yj l lc dartvax dartmouth edu espen h koht dartmouth edu espen h koht writes in article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit huh where did you get this idea from i think you got this backwards the duo s memory is faster than its equivalent desktop machine by and the rest of the powerboks i think the explanation for this was that it can refresh faster in instead of cycles i believe things that could affect performance would be factors such as use of functions enhanced in the fpu which the duo doesn t have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences in speed are likely to be influence by the software you are running what kind of screen depth you are running etc espen ps the duo is bit through out thanks for the enlightening post is there a technical note on this the desktop machine i was referring to was actually not a mac but rather any of various workstations that use the mhz such as old suns or old nexts i used to own a next cube but i will try rebooting without extensions to see what kind of a speed difference i get with my powerbook duo i did notice an extreme slowdown to unusability with a mac plus after installing system on it why does the os suck up so much cpu power also you re right software does make a huge difference i have the misfortune of using ms works on my duo when editing relatively small k files cut or copy takes several seconds often more than seconds this happens with power cycling turned off as usual ms software is maggot infested feces i m getting nisus to replace it for my text editing avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter driver v problems in article ut emx uucp marc bizer mlbizer bongo cc utexas edu writes has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort such and such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory or am i the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer this can be solved by going into your system folder and do a get info command i on the finder and give it more memory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy cassidy elan rowan edu writes this is a bad idea my machine is on hours a day but it s actually doing things hours a day i use it as an all purpose alarm clock scheduler i ve got routines that run in the middle of the night phone calls it makes during the day when i m out if your machine is on hours a day then you can count on it to be working hours a day i could call it from work and download a file that i might need i could call it from work and have it turn the lights on if i m going to be late oops more wasted electricity but conversely i could have it turn the lights off heck i suppose i could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when i get there oh well nevermind i m just babbling all of those things that you ve mention can still be accomplished when the machine is power down when the previous poster said power down it doesn t mean turning off the machine it just means that the machine is in an energy conserving mode that sucks up least electricity
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes story about dealing having problems w c s deleted so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too i ve had my c for about six weeks now with no problems whatsoever it s been customized with replaced the apple quantum drive with a connor drive installed a tandberg scsi tape drive in the internal bay which works just fine though apple doesn t seem to be supplying front panel bezels w a standard cutout it s hooked up to an apple laserwriter plus and has no printing problems at all tested printing complex photoshop graphics it has expanded vram and extra meg simm no problems so in sum i have no idea what this dealer is complaining about fred fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adapter for iisi and a vga monitor in article apr midway uchicago edu choi gsbsrc uchicago edu dongseok choi writes i understand that if i have a correct adapter then i can use a vga monitor with my iisi are those adapters working with specific brands is adapter for nec or sony working with other brands i will be using a vga monitor with iisi for a month soon i don t have any clue what monitor will be here s the story the iisi cannot supply a vga output however some vga type monitors can adequately deal with the video signal the mac uses to drive the apple or inch high resolution color display i e apple s own x mode so if you wish to hook one of these monitors up to your iisi you need a an adapter that converts from the mac db connector to the vga style high density db connector but tells the mac to use it s own x mode not the vga x mode and b a vga monitor that can deal with the higher bandwidth of the mac x mode over the vga x mode which as i stated in above the iisi cannot produce as far as a above is concerned contact james engineering inc fairmount ave el cerrito ca fax they can probably get you the right adapter remember you do not want the run of the mill mac to vga adapter because it will try to have your iisi produce the vga mode which it cannot the computer will just fail to produce any video signal at all instead you want an adapter that connects between the mac style and vga style connectors but tells the mac to use the apple x mode sorry for the poor terminology available for describing this distinction as far as b is concerned make sure to get a monitor that can deal with a horizontal bandwidth of khz and a vertical retrace rate of hz these are the spec s of apple s x mode for comparison the vga standard x mode uses a khz horizontal bandwidth and a hz vertical retrace rate the monitor will probably need to have auto synch ing capability as the apple mode you ll be using isn t one of the set of standard modes in the pc compatible world good luck fred martin fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article c no jst mailer cc fsu edu stricher masig ocean fsu edu char aznabul writes in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity depends on the price you can get the ci for educationally speaking the lciii here at fsu can be had at just under add in roughly for a monitor last i d heard an mb lciii simm went for i think you re in a win win situation no matter what you decide you ll most likely be happy with it james yes and one thing to think about is the pricing on the m harddrive configuration when i got my lowly classic ii the options were or m harddrives and it was clear that buying another m of harddrive space would cost much more than the difference in price between the two config uartions there is an analogous break in the lciii and prices and you will not regret spending the extra money for a larger harddrive particularly if you ever wind up wanting to use softpc which sets up a several mb up to partition or if you are generating large files with dtp software or if you might ever want to check out a mac unix like os like machten having the extra space will be helpful when you are pricing used iici s look at the harddrive size they come with and how much it would cost you to add more storage down the road might be a useful bargaining strategy even if you see no reason to go over m though i must admit that i am such a packrat that within months of getting my computer i was backing up a lot of stuff to floppies that i rarely use to because i was running out of space without having started using dtp stuff softpc or trying any unix os peter bell minerva cis yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sound recording for mac portable in a previous article aa freenet carleton ca david a hughes says does anyone know what hardware is required and where i could find it for sound recording on the mac portable thanks all you have to do is buy a macromedia macrecorder this plugs into your seril port and acts as a microphone north star computers should be able to order you one liam morland ad freenet carleton ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re syquest in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu anthony s kim wrote i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli bernoulli also offer mb floppy drives that read mb floppies their mb multidisk reads all formats and writes mb bernoulli s are installed in industrial computers much more rugged than syquest you get what you pay for i guess haven t heard about mb syquest thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro on ca ontario hydro automated ndt welding r d fax toronto canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	two internal disks i d like to put internal disks in a mac ii i understand that ones needs a special jumper cable to acheive this does anyone know a source for these thanks mike pazzani pazzani ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help identifying this card chad jones cjones physci ucla edu wrote in article c xpzk f imag fr ibaa oueichek oueichek imag fr writes i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots it probably won t work with any other lc the ones i have for the lc ii are rev d no it won t work in the iisi s pds slot since it s a pds while the lc has the pds the iisi and se share the same kind of card ok i see does asante propose any upgrade for their cards do they have an email adress so i can ask them directly their phone number will be ok even if i pay the overseas call i m really willing to know what to do with this card sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good aps experience i thought i d share a good experience too i bought the aps quantum zero footprint drive in may back when they still used two separate leds on the front panel and the case was metal while traveling with it it was in my se mac bag on top of the mac this past winter one of the plastic tabs holding the front panel on broke so that the right side of the front panel was coming forward away from the rest of the drive i lived with this situation until it became completely intolerable which more or less coincided with a network shutdown at school and a trip out of town i had to take which gave me some dead time during which to have the drive sent out i called aps for an rma and got one with no questions asked about how the tab got broken it was handled a little roughly by airline baggage handlers though nothing else was damaged well except for the internal speaker in my modem which wasn t that well glued down to begin with yeah yeah i m never flying with my se again and when i called back to ask whether i could send it in a little later rather than right away they had no problem with that even when i exceeded the normal valid period for an rma by a day they re usually good for days the front panel was replaced under warranty and the drive was shipped back quickly i mailed it first class insured on a saturday by noon from l a to missouri and it came back by fed ex by friday i don t know exactly what day it came back because i was traveling that week from wednesday afternoon to sunday afternoon the only thing that could ve been bad was that the first service rep i talked to in an attempt to prevent jeopardizing my data suggested that i take the drive mechanism out and send just the case unfortunately i discovered the day i was mailing the thing that would necessitate breaking the little seal and thus voiding the warranty oh well al albert seas ucla edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help how to test simms well you can always try and find a pc dealer who sells guaranteed memory i work at a company growing at a year we have on order hundreds of computers per year it never fails machines come in with bad simms now for those of you who are wondering just why your pc or mac just crashed i can tell you i always thought it was the incompetent ass who wrote or designed the software well i don t think that way anymore especially with the results i have gotten with replacing bad simms in my own machine and others at work the moral to this story is to make sure your memory is good i would be willing to bet lots of you out there have simms with either soft or hard errors on them and you don t even know about it but every once in awhile those bad simms just makes your life hell i just got plain sick of dealing with peoples complaints that thier machine just crashed and they lost thier work in case your wondering or if you haven t already guessed i work in an is department service is a do or die perogative in this line of work so the moral is have your memory tested with a simm hardware tester and no i don t mean the simple little software programs that you can run in your machine simms are complicated little beasts and they needs special hardware to test them effectively if any of you are interested in getting one of these nifty little devices which are not cheap write me back they make life a little bit easier and besides they pay for themselves in a short time from the loss of productivity people would have to deal with when thier machine commits suicide greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help scsi woes on mac iifx in article apr news unomaha edu salmon cwis unomaha edu david salmon writes according to the official documentation failure to use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this is your problem or not i don t know i have had sporadic scsi problems with my iifx since i bought it i cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing to do is to try to reformat your drive on someone elses system if you continue to get errors it is probably the drive if it formats fine then i would try to format it on your system with no externals if this fails then the scsi controller on your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu have you tried having your scsi bus balanced greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article qpc g mr bigboote wpi edu bchase bigwpi wpi edu bret chase writes in article c mqk f liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk mr w i sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus i got this from a technote that i reada couple of weeks ago well almost nubus anyway comprehensive bus contention between processors is not supported in the current macintoshes could be wrong however i know for a fact from seeing the cyclone data spec sheets myself don t ask macintosh cyclone models will provide full implementation of the nubus standard very interesting possibilities indeed other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article qqla inn ho srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward m tecot writes a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt well here is my worth advice from a grad student i agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before me the important thing is pick what ever interest you the most and learn as much as possible about it in my five years of education in this field though brief compare to alot of people i had to think about this kind of question a lot did i make the right decision in going into electrical engineering as opposed to computer engineering or cs the more i go thru school the more i believe that this kind of question is irrelevant interesting as i think computer technology is now becomming widespread enough now that it is no longer a position which must require a degree i know of several people i work with that make just as much as i do and they don t even have a bs degree in comp sci yet they make a year they also didn t have to pay grand to thier local university either i think computer programming is being reduced to a trade practice than a truly specialty field it will be even more so in the future if your interested in cutting edge type of stuff and you choose cs as i did i suggest checking out the emerging field of software engineering the difficulties for example of designing scaleable design environments for individuals so that a single person can handle to million lines of code all by himself in a reasonable manner and then incorporate that into a teamwork enviroment is truly a gigantic problem not going to be solved any time soon unfortunately but hey you could be the person that provides the missing key for some good groundwork i have come to believe that choosing cs because one does not like hardware or choosing hardware because one does not like to program is really doing an injustice of building and computer and making it useful for something everything is interwoven and inseparable cs ce and ee are all a part of a really great discipline and do depend on each other my advice is don t limit yourself but make a decision based on which major will give you the best opportunities to learn that of course depends on the curriculum at your persective school i would choose a major that allows me to explore as much as possible beside i don t know why the school would make a student choose a major before her his sophamore year hey you may be so interested in this field that you decided to learn all about the making of computers in which case you suffer a little more and go to grad school about the money don t look at the averages if you are good you are going to earn more money than anyone else if you are a superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise if you are a hotshot computer designers well if your like the poor slobs in the world like me you are in no financial position to continue graduate work right out of a top comp sci school the trick is to find some generous inc you work for to pay for the rest of your education trust me its the best way to go even if you don t get a top salary which i have always been a poor slob throughout school but if you follow this rule book salary food shelter you should always have a computer and you won t go hungry what else could a man want chung yang greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	softpc question could someone give me some info on soft pc how does it work what kind of performance can i expect can you run windows under it adequately any info if appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb memory for sale two meg sim that came from a pb for sale i am asking postage included if you are interested please e mail me via internet if you do not have internet availability you may contact me at reply to donald lyles internet dcl his com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerated mac plus problems hello i recently accelerated my mac plus micromac mhz accelerator and now i can t get my mac to boot off of the hard disk it boots fine from a floppy and i can mount the hard disk using scsi probe but i cannot get it to boot from the hard drive i installed a new driver so i don t think that is the problem this poses a rather large problem i only have meg of ram and i need to run mathematica which requires meg i was hoping to use system virtual memory so that i could run mathematica however i can t run system from a floppy so i can t get enough ram any suggestions thanks for your time chrisw yang earlham edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can mac superdrives read unix disks there are several programs on sumex that allow macs with superdrives to read and write unix tar diskettes ronald h nicholson jr rhn netcom com rhn sigm com n ywu include cannonical disclaimer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime ejhupper rs cmp ilstu edu eric huppertz writes b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight i remember a simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that is this was circa i think a quick search of the index at mac archive umich edu shows the following as available by anonymous ftp from that site mac util developer diagnosticsoundsampler hqx binhex that chord you hear when you push the start up on your mac ii means more than just i m on it s passed it s internal test this utility explains what the various sounds stand for i e various stages of ram testing jonathan brecher brecher mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks unknown class user writes snip i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass anything you store in there will eventually cause some discomfort over time jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc and old macs what happens then i have a few questions that i would like answers to or opinions on since i m thinking about buying a lc iii q when the powerpc based macs are announced what will happen to the x based macs q is system the last word for x based macs will we ever get real multi tasking for the mac q will there be a way for nubus pds equipped macs to add a powerpc on a board to their systems i d hate to think that i m going to put my down on a machine that in months is now part of a dead end product line thanks in advance mike norman c o bell northern research p o box station c ottawa ontario canada k y h m s internet mwnorman bnr ca tel fax hasta la vista baby a schwarzenegger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re file sharing magneto opticals jann vanover vanover bcsaic boeing com wrote my co worker has just attached a magneto optical drive to his mac works great for him however he tried to turn on file sharing but it wouldn t work had some message about not all volumes are shareable so has anyone had success in sharing mos if so please tell me how hi he needs insert the mo before filesharing get turned on and the only one that can see the disk is the owner of the machine i m not sure but seems that the check allow owner to see entire disk should be enabled too a bad thing you can t eject the disk until fs is turned off hope that helps pablo a millan l mis opiniones son mias pero te las puedo vender email pablo ing puc cl seeds limitada santiago chile research is what i m doing when i don t know what i m doing w von braun
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks i d get the iici it s more expandable just as fast and preserves the option to run system david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hosed hd hey all we have an old external hd attached to the plus in our lab it had given us flawless service until last week the problem someone in our lab has an old that was upgraded a couple years ago to a plus with an aftermarket simm scsi setup digigraphics simmer the db scsi plug runs through the back of the machine and attaches to the board with a pin rectangular connector well this guy had removed the back from the machine to put more memory in and had disconnected the the scsi plug since the pin connector is symmetrical not keyed he may have reinstalled it upside down essentially reversing the pins on the db he came in and asked if he could try out our hd on his scsi port it had never been used naive fools that we are we said o k his computer failed to recognize the drive now none of the computers in our lab will recognize it we tried disk doctor and it doesn t recognize anything on the scsi chain could installing the scsi upside down have wrecked the hd s driver board the drive seems to spin up all right and unpark itself upon powerup the events are too coincidental to attribute the problem to stiction any help greatly appreciated james jak fff chem utah edu next mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple rgb monitor vs apple color monitor i have an old apple rgb monitor for a iigs which looks a whole lot like the monitor i have the sneaking suspicion that if i had the right cable i could use it on my mac does anyone know if my suspicions are correct or am i just full of it mkd
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re microphone in article rhp u q gazette bcm tmc edu chen nuclear med bcm tmc edu chenlin wrote i just got my new c it does not seem to come with a microphone damn the c comes with a microphone if you get the cd rom drive all other configurations don t include one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hardware that fits mail order in article unix andrew cmu edu christopher bruce kidwell ck andrew cmu edu writes i ordered an external floppy drive from them years ago when i placed the order they said it was in stock and would ship the next day a week passed and no drive i called them up and they said they were out of stock and my drive should ship in weeks or so since i needed the drive right away both my internal hard drive and floppy were dead i cancelled my order and haven t dealt with them since chris kidwell ck andrew cmu edu i too had a very unpleasant experience with hardware that s shi it featured repeated lies about when things had shipped a salesperson who was totally ignorant about what he was selling a charge for duties i had specifically been assured were not payable and then a monitor their house brand page monochrome that was the most unadulterated piece of junk it has ever been my misfortune to experience in the world of electronics i shipped it back and they refunded my money but it still cost me something over for long distance charges non refundable taxes and duties and lost time don t deal with them
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new powerbooks i used to hate it when people posted messages like this but now that i am contemplating a purchase i can see why they do so has anyone heard of any upcoming within the next months advances in the powerbook line can we expect to see a powerpc powerbook at some point in the future i assume an would take too much power and generate too much heat for installation in a powerbook thanks for your help
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed of a centris what is the actual clock speed of a centris mhz or mhz thanks in advance peter white pw csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	formatting more than k possible a friend of mine who owns a pc said that he recently got a program that can format a disk that can exceed the normal capacity of a hd disk apparently it rewrites the driver or takes or the driver or something that allows it get more space out of a normal hd floppy disk it supposedly gets upto megs so something like k i don t have the program since i can t use it and its supposed to be called something like form or something like that my question is whether its possible to do this on the mac and if its not possible is it due to hardware limitations a developer friend of mine said that it might be possible but he doesn t deal with this aspect of the field much thanks for any information contributed steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac scsi question i hooked up an old meg external mac hardrive to a powerbook i reformatted the drive copied all the files from the powerbook except the systemfolder deleted the files from the powerbook my biggest error sigh and then rebooted the whole set up and chimes of death i get the following sad mac error f i ran norton and it claims its a bad scsi driver and suggests replaceing it i used apples disk tools but i couldn t update the hardrives scsi driver as it claimed it was in use but i couldn t even mount the thing though i could see it when checking the scsi bus after turning it on after booting my machine first what does that error above refer to am i on the right track is there anything i can do short of intialising the drive since i need the data on there thanks ed bourne
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re formatting more than k possible applied engineering used to sell a disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg on a hd disk i wonder if the drive would work on a mac since i m using my old drive from my iigs on my iisi now just a thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu newsgroups comp sys mac hardware comp sys mac software subject re formatting more than k possible summary expires references c j n hpq csulb edu distribution organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa keywords in article c j n hpq csulb edu sluh beach csulb edu jeff masud writes a friend of mine who owns a pc said that he recently got a program that can format a disk that can exceed the normal capacity of a hd disk apparently it rewrites the driver or takes or the driver or something that allows it get more space out of a normal hd floppy disk it supposedly gets upto megs so something like k i don t have the program since i can t use it and its supposed to be called something like form or something like that my question is whether its possible to do this on the mac and if its not possible is it due to hardware limitations a developer friend of mine said that it might be possible but he doesn t deal with this aspect of the field much thanks for any information contributed steve applied engineering used to sell a disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg on a hd disk i wonder if the drive would work on a mac since i m using my old drive from my iigs on my iisi now just a thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	data transfer rate of the new series fs micropolis hd s i have a question for y all i m looking at an ad for the new fast scsi drives from micropolis in the june macworld i have seen similar ads for the ide versions in ibm pc magazines well the ad says that all three drives have a fast scsi interface but then it says that the dtr rate for each drive is megabytes second max how can this be i thought that if a drive was to be fast scsi it had to have a dtr of megs a second i am assuming the megs sec claim by micropolis is from the k cache i admit that i would be very impressed if the drive can read write data at megs a second thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problem printing quark on a swii iv e got a problem printing with a stylewriterii i am printing from a iivx with megs ram i am trying to print a quark file that has fonts a couple of boxes and gradient fills two things happen i get a disk is full error that i can t find documented i also have parts of letters that are over one of the gradient fills get cut off this only happens to the text over the fill text adjecent in a different box is uneffected any ideas thanks for the help karl jacobs jacobs cerritos edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra pds video cards a friend is heavily into midi and is using a quadra maybe with all but one nubus slot populated with arcane music hardware and a video card he reports bit video is too slow for good real time display of what he needs to see he also reports that the built in video is even worse he s not a mac guru and i haven t seen the system so this is about all i know i suspect that his nubus is heavily loaded and think improvements might come from a switch to an accelerated pds slot video card does this sound right who makes a pds accelerated video card for the quadra thats worth looking at any other suggestions thanks in advance email agorski mitre org arthur m gorski snail the mitre corporation nasa road one houston texas
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu sounds to me like your dealer really wants to get rid of the iivx s he has in stock i can imaging that they are getting hard to sell given that a c is way faster and is comparable in price an lciii is about the same speed and is way cheaper so your dealer may well be trying as hard as he can to convince people that iivx s are a much better buy than a c just so he can get rid of all his old stock no disrespect to dealers or the iivx intended jon nielsen jon cs uwa edu au department of computer science university of western australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling the eject on a mac se i m trying to find a program that will stop the macs from spitting out their boot disk i was told one exists but i can t find it anyone know where i can find it thanks robert harvey duty programmer information technology victoria university s valiant vut edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help formatting nt disk array i have a northern telecom disk array dated that has two mb drives units in it and i cannot get it formatted i set the scsi id on and my software recognizes the unit but i cannot mount it or anything do i have to use both drives in the array any help with these drives or possibly newer software than what i m using fwb hdt and will be greatly appreciated grey grey mull blaine catt ncsu edu smoke pot dodge the draft cheat on gbmull eos ncsu edu your wife become president ncsu catt program the american dream
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i have some questions about this subject i like to leave my computer on if i think i m going to be using it withing the next or hours but i get sick of my dad constantly coming up to me and asking why is the computer on if you re not using it i also wonder about my computer being harmed by fluctuations in voltage from other things garbage disposal etc here are my questions how much harm do voltage fluctuations cause my computer does not share a circuit with anything big but our my light dims when a refrigerator comes on or the garbage disposal is turned on whose doesn t and also when the washing machine does anything all these things cause a drop in voltage which is harmful to a computer right i also notice the fan in my system saver turning at different speeds is it safer to turn it off and back on when i want to use it or to leave it on how much electricity does my computer use i have an apple iigs ne flames with a kensington system saver gs electric fan inside an applecolor rgb monitor and an external hd fan and its own p s how do i translate this into kilowatt hours also how much of this is used by the monitor does the monitor use considerably less juice when the screen is totally black but still on many computers spin the hd up and down constantly to save power i always thought this was harmful to the hd and defeats the purpose of leaving the computer on in the first place except portables is this true thanks for the info i think this will help lots of people stacy
comp.windows.x	x server scanline padding question i am almost done porting xfree to a new piece of display hardware but have run into a snag i think may be somewhat commonplace so i m sending a net feeler i have a display that is a non interlaced memory mapped bit x display the server s view of the world obtained via xwd xwud seems to be exactly what it should be however the displayed version of the framebuffer gives the impression that the server is using scanlines that are too long after a bit of experimentation it seems that the problem was that the server was padding the line out to a word boundry but the scanline size in the buffer is bytes which isn t exactly divisible by four changing the following defines in mit server include servermd h define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad to define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad was not exactly the right solution how do i tell the server either a don t pad the scan lines at all cause this server is only being built to run on this particular display or to pad only to byte boundries i m using a customized version of xfree v under mach thanks brian
comp.windows.x	callback parameter problem after x r upgrade we ve just recently upgraded our x to r and are now running into problems with some of our applications that use motif it appears that pointer to the widget being passed to the callback function i e the w of w client call is nil the client and call pointers are okay in some instances but bogus in other instances we are running sunos on a sun after compiling x r and all patches with the motifbc flag set we recompiled motif and then we recompiled the application did we skip a step or leave something out is there a flag that we should have used should we have left motif alone any answers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks kathy kathy saint she s a witch she s a witch i m not dead yet how can you tell she s a witch she looks like one saint mitchell hac com monthy python the holy grail
comp.windows.x	request unsubscribe please remove me from this mailing list we finally got our news feed ron l ron lundstrom collaborative research inc x ron cric com main street fax waltham ma
comp.windows.x	connecting a digitiser to x repost hi there i posted this to comp windows x intrinsics but got no response so i m posting here i m wanting to connect a digitiser made for pcs into my workstation an hp it is my understanding the x windows can understand a variety of input devices including digitiser tablets however this digitiser makes use of the serial port so there would seem to be a need to have a special device driver the hp manual pages say that the hp x server will accept x input from devices listed in the usr lib x x devices file display number i shouldn t think i would be able to simply insert dev rs c as an input device in this file and expect a digitiser to work but maybe i m wrong am i what i would like to know is does anybody out there have a digitiser connected to their workstation for use as a pointer for x rather than just as input to a specific x application if so what were the steps required for installation did you need a special device driver did the manufacturer supply it are there generic public domain device drivers around i understand that digitisers generally use only a couple of standard formats any help would be greatly appreciated cheers vaughan vaughan clarkson email vaughan ewd dsto gov au engineering ph d student phone glider pilot fax
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse in ol v wm i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au hi with regard to i have the following lines in my xresources olwm keyboardcommands full olvwm keyboardcommands full olwm grabvirtualkeys true olvwm grabvirtualkeys true i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work cheers gary riseborough phone gary aodc gov au
comp.windows.x	problem with xterm no access to tty i m running xterm under x r motif mwm and unix svr on a unisys based machine my default shell is bin csh or the c shell whenever i run xterm i get the following message before the first c shell prompt warning no access to tty thus no job control in this shell after this i can t run any job control commands like fg bg etc also i can t run another xterm from the command line of this xterm i can only launch additional xterms from a mwmrc menu i d appreciate some help with this problem or pointers to where i can get some help by the way my environment variable term is set to xterm saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	how can i change sun cgthree fb writes to dword hello xperts out there i ve just built x r for sunos sparc i have gcc and i d like to use its bit capability to generate an x release which will render to the frame buffer using store double bit machine code can anyone tell me which directories source files compiler switches to begin with thanks in advance spencer greene nimbus technology inc sgreene nimbus com santa clara california usa sgiblab ub gate c tech sgreene patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel dr samuel johnson
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z before i even think about getting this is it going to be posted to comp sources x at any time in the near future greg greg sands department of engineering science university of auckland g sands auckland ac nz new zealand
comp.windows.x	re entrancy of xlib functions known problem i ve found a problem in the use of xlib functions regarding re entrancy i decided to implement an animated cursor using created cursors by calling xdefinecursor from a sig alrm signal handler this is used to indicate we are waiting for a operator request to complete on a production control system i was redrawing the screen underneath the animated cursor and then restoring the standard cursor when complete i found dumped core and upon analysis it was when the sig alrm handler was called during a xdrawstring call xdrawstring was doing a bcopy presumably an internal structure when the xdefinecursor was called presumably the internal structure that xdrawstring was manipulating was not in a stable state and sent xdefinecursor to where it shouldn t have been has anyone else experienced this is there any official documentation that says you should ensure this doesn t happen or should bcopy be atomic we are running on sgi irix with x r regards martin martin visser electrical software engineer engineering technology department bhp steel slab and plate products division p o box wollongong nsw australia phone ext fax e mail visser itwol bhp com au
comp.windows.x	re imake tex looking for beta testers in article rl efinnl p fbi news informatik uni dortmund de klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de rainer klute writes as i announced at the x technical conference in january i would like to make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex is in beta test here at the computer science department of dortmund university and i am looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations judging from the responses so far i have not made clear enough in my article quoted above that imake tex is not for installing tex but for using it with imake tex you will never again have to fiddle around with calling latex and its various utility programs makeindex bibtex simply type make and your document s dvi file will be up to date all you have to do is to write a simple imakefile and let imake generate a suitable makefile for you here is such an imakefile include tex tmpl paperformata simplelatextarget document the generated makefile provides the following commands make depend searching the tex source files for dependencies like input somefile make dvi generate an up to date dvi file make viewdvi display it on your screen make ps generate a postscript version of your document make viewps display it make clean remove unnecessary things make veryclean remove even the dvi file make makefiles generate makefiles in subdirectories if a this seems attractive to you b you are willing to test imake tex and send me a short test report c you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation however the german version is completed and included then you are invited as a beta tester i am looking forward to your e mail dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes from bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley subject xv has escaped date apr gmt no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	german keyboard alt gr hi ppl i am running xfree under linux sls and am trying to get the german keyboard working i have already recompiled my kernel and the german keyboard in the textmode works just fine i have found out that there is a preconfigured german keymap for x called xmodmap gr in usr lib x so i ran xmodmap usr lib x xmodmap gr my first impression was very good i was able to get z and y straight there s still a little problem i can t solve however i cannot get at the backslash bar brackets and curly brackets the alt gr key doesn t seem to work i tried xev to find out whether it produces an event at all and it does looking up its keycode in the xmodmap i found the entry mode switch which doesn t ring any bell the entries for the keys i cannot use seem to be correct example keycode xx ssharp questn backslash the first entries i can even get at the first one is the unmodified key and the second is the key with shift but what is the rd my guess is that it should be the key with alt gr but it isn t if anybody has run into similar problems and knows how to solve them help would be appreciated cu alaric
comp.windows.x	help anything about x from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb to status r hello folks i am doing a uni project and was wondering if you could supply with some specific info or references for info regarding considerations for installation of xwindows in a hp unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit x x r glossary of any term on x we considering this software for the project which deals in image analysis any info would be greatly appreciated please email to golum riv csu edu au
comp.windows.x	help anything about x from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb to status r hello folks i am doing a uni project and was wondering if you could supply with some specific info or references for info regarding considerations for installation of xwindows in a hp unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit linux x x r glossary of any term on x we considering this software for the project which deals in image analysis any info would be greatly appreciated please email to golum riv csu edu au
comp.windows.x	background processing in x applications i have written a server program which makes socket connections to many nodes and collects data from that nodes periodically i need to display this data on my x application i tried to invoke this server using xtaddapptimeout which works ok but the problem here is some time there is delay in collecting data so i doesn t returns to eventloop during that time and my application remains busy and it doesn t respond to users input i button press events are queued and exected after server finished its task now i am going to try appaddinput call so that it reads pipe only when there is something to read in pipe i am thinking of creating one pipe in which server will write and client which is my x application will read now i have some doubts which you may be able to clarify when i fork a process it will create to copy of my process right now what does this two copies mean two shells where should i fork my application what are the responsibilities of this processes how should i call this processes can i fork more than one processes so that i can read from more than one servers input thanks samir patel spatel cs tamu edu
comp.windows.x	sources for vuewm gadgets does anyone know any sites resources where i can find gadgets for the vuewm window manager such as types actions icons for the file manager and event manager etc tanks all input appreciated
comp.windows.x	re xsun not finding default font sol joel zodiac z code com joel reymont writes hi netters i ve just built x r pl under solaris i ve used the multi screen patch as well as the r sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives me upon startup it says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed if i supply the fp option it doesn t complain about the font path but still complains about the font i have symlinks from usr lib to the place where my distribution lives try to run xsun under truss the best way to do this is by logging in over the network and typing truss t open xsun open opt x r lib x fonts misc fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts speedo fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts speedo fonts alias o rdonly err enoent open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc x pcf o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc cursor pcf o rdonly this will give you and idea of where xsun things the fonts should be if you have defined a project root and done a make install everything should have gone right by default even without symbolic links casper
comp.windows.x	x audio extension is there an official extension to x which allows the use of audio most of the x audio programs use system specific ways to access the audio capabilities of the computer they run on is there a hardware independent way to do this like the video extension xv thanks for any help erik wilde wilde tik ethz ch swiss federal institute of technology eth zuerich laboratory of computer engineering and networks tik eth zentrum etz g ch zuerich phone fax
comp.windows.x	imake tex looking for beta testers as i announced at the x technical conference in january i would like to make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex is in beta test here at the computer science department of dortmund university and i am looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	re save under with x r hans bos hans xelion nl wrote i have the following problem on x r servers when a window of my is obscured by a pop up window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows of my window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets an expose event but because the save under attribute is used for the pop up window that obscured my window no expose event is sent we had the same problem and on most of our machines it works if we use backing store instead of save under marcus marcus schnell marcus iiasa ac at international institute for applied systems analysis iiasa a laxenburg austria phone fax vice commissioner of the australian rules internet football league arifl
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped it really bums me out that xv went shareware xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own what does this mean anyway can i sit in a company and look at pictures off the net in my spare time amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a real nice bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details now since universities are institutions right doesn t this mean that most everyone in the world is affected by this i don t believe there are that many running x windows at home yet relatively speaking can the author legally sell xv xv uses tiff and jpeg code developed by others did the author get permission to sell these works did the author also get permission from all the people who contributed to xv to sell their work as well my guess is that now nobody is going to want to help the author maintain the code anymore now that xv has become a commercial product and support for xv will begin to slide downhill if this is the case then that s a bummer i really liked xv chris sherman sherman lea csc ncsu edu
comp.windows.x	cannot create plane window hello x ers i have a problem i am not able to create a window with bit planes the following code illustrates the problem include stdio h include x xlib h include x xutil h main display display window win xvisualinfo vinfo colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attributes xevent event status status display xopendisplay null status xmatchvisualinfo display defaultscreen display truecolor vinfo if status fprintf stderr visual not found n exit colormap xcreatecolormap display defaultrootwindow display vinfo visual allocnone attributes colormap colormap win xcreatewindow display defaultrootwindow display inputoutput vinfo visual cwcolormap attributes xmapwindow display win for xnextevent display event i tried this with an sgi with plane truecolor server and with an hp plane directcolor server with the obviously neccessary change both running x r on the client side i have tried with x r xlib on hp and decstation and with x r xlib on decstation all the combinations gave badmatch error on the createwindow request as far as i can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give a badmatch is the colormap if it belongs to a wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched as i did not get the error message what am i doing wrong for information i can tell that xwud aborts with the same error karsten internet krs kampsax dk karsten spang phone kampsax data fax p o box dk hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff imakefile objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo all echo building xv echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building xv echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries xv h signal macros if defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse define pause sig sigpause else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif if defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom x srand x endif xcmap c include files include stdio h if defined sun defined sysv include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x xos h tiff imakefile tif compress o imakefile if hasgcc g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc traditional o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h else g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h endif depend g states h clean rm mkg states g states h dependtarget george lindholm phone university computing services ubc fax agricultural road vancouver b c canada internet lindholm ucs ubc ca v t z bitnet usergnl ubcmtsg
comp.windows.x	x server documentaion where can i get documentation about the x server internals btw i m also interested in documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re menubutton widget question scott evans server cs virginia edu writes i m trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget is this possible right now all i get is the bitmap no sign of the label that s expected the first sentence describing the bitmap resource in the menubutton section of the athena widget set c language interface documentation states bitmap a bitmap to display instead of the label one way round this might be to make use of the button s backgroundpixmap resource but remember that you or a user of your application won t be able to set it from a resource file also the button won t automatically be the size of the bitmap the bitmap will be tiled if necessary or you could set the button s dimensions to match its size jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john julian name julian g self phone ext email julian comp lancs ac uk fax post university of lancaster department of computing engineering building bailrigg lancaster lancashire la yr united kingdom
comp.windows.x	button sensitivity problem motif app under openwindows the motif application consists of multiple transient shells as children of a single toplevel shell appshell toplevelshell transientshell transientshell while a transient shell is popped up my application modifies the sensitivity of a button in the toplevel shell which is hidden by the transient shell window when the transient shell is popped down the button sensitivity is correct but the button text remains unchanged i e solid shaded subsequent selection of the button causes the text to revert to the correct visual state when tracing event messages sent to the application many of the events seen under mwm are not present under openwindows if anyone has any suggestions or solutions please post or send me mail thanks
comp.windows.x	re cannot create plane window summary in article apr nbivax nbi dk spang nbivax nbi dk karsten spang writes i have a problem i am not able to create a window with bit planes gave badmatch error on the createwindow request as far as i can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give a badmatch is the colormap if it belongs to a wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched i got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tv tv tek com i have just looked at the r server listings mit server dix window c and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error even though my o reilly book only says borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly if class inputonly bw depth find out if the depth and visual are acceptable for this screen if vmask cwborderpixmap cwborderpixel class inputonly depth pparent drawable depth if vmask cwcolormap class inputonly visual ancwopt visual ancwopt colormap none so case is inputonly which is not your case it seems to be the o reilly case case should not be the case since you got the visual for the screen case looks suspicious you are giving no cwborder in the attribute mask and since the visual is not the parent depth i would suspect you need to supply a border pixel from the new colormap you are going to use for this window case does not seem to be the problem since you do supply the cwcolormap in the attributes thanks for your help karsten internet krs kampsax dk karsten spang phone kampsax data fax p o box dk hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped sherman lea csc ncsu edu chris sherman gripes it really bums me out that xv went shareware xv s been shareware for about a year hadn t you noticed i don t have a problem with this john bradley has put a hell of a lot of work into xv and if he feels that it s time to get some monetary reward from it that s surely his right can the author legally sell xv xv uses tiff and jpeg code developed by others did the author get permission to sell these works had you bothered to consult the distribution terms of the ijg jpeg code which are right there in the xv distribution you would have observed that we specifically grant permission for use in shareware and commercial software sam leffler s libtiff copyright also grants permission for unrestricted use including resale my guess is that now nobody is going to want to help the author maintain the code anymore now that xv has become a commercial product commercial there s a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial it s illegal to copy this and we ll sic our lawyers on you software i do agree that john s readme file could be a little clearer about what he means by personal use regards tom lane organizer independent jpeg group
comp.windows.x	re xlib timeouts in article ccdw kudu ccdw kudu ru ac za dave wilson writes i am in the process of modifying an x application that uses xlib i d like to include a timer driven facility for network polling you have to do the same sorts of things that xt does with its main loop that is you have to rig up a timer queue and you have to put a select or poll call in your main loop you can obtain the file descriptor of the x display connection using fd connectionnumber display the functionality of the main loop dispatcher in xt is quite useful the good news is you can get the source and plagiarize
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm in article frolv awvi iv s andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db andrew cmu edu writes i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work where can i find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource it doesn t show up in my openwindows man pages s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.windows.x	re imake tex looking for beta testers in article rnodlinnlde fbi news informatik uni dortmund de klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de rainer klute writes if a this seems attractive to you b you are willing to test imake tex and send me a short test report c you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation however the german version is completed and included then you are invited as a beta tester i am looking forward to your e mail please don t respond anymore i have enough beta testers now thank you dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	need help with mit magic cookie i m trying to turn on xauthorization using mit magic cookie on my servers cpu heads hp rx xterminals but i m running into a couple of problems first at least one of our applications maple doesn t seem to understand how to deliver the magic cookie and won t run on a display with authorization turned on second we have people with client software on remote machines and i really don t want to hassle them with having to copy their xauthority file to the remote machine assuming that the clients there support xauthorization so what i would like to do is turn on mit magic cookie by default with non privileged users able to turn it off dropping back to host based authorization yes i know how to turn it off by changing the xconfig file for the heads and the client authorize setting for the xterminals but non privileged users can t do this i ve checked with the hp support line and there doesn t appear to be a way can anyone confirm this or do you know of a way to accomplish what i want btw i m running hpux and vue thanks in advance rick rick mcteague electrical engineering department speed scientific school university of louisville louisville ky internet sysrick starbase spd louisville edu disclaimer i m a stand up comedian if anyone takes me seriously i m doing something wrong
comp.windows.x	re overriding default wm behaviour specify ramdomplacement or randomplace in your tvtwmrc this places the windows not interactively in pseudo random positions on your screens
comp.windows.x	buttonpress buttonrelease events multiple clients how can i capture buttonpress buttonrelease events in multiple clients i want to know if the user is still at the display before locking the screen i can get keypress keyrelease and pointer motion events but if the user is pressing the mouse button in the same location the mouse doesn t move i can t capture the events the o reilly xlib programming manual vol says on page only one client can select button events on any one window at one time due to the grab that automatically takes place any help would be appreciated deryl steinert dus ornl gov
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation x motif on windows nt ok many people emailed me asking for information on congruent corporation s product which allows x motif unix applications to function on windows nt today i was sent a telephone number by a kind person by the name of sam i d give better attribution but the mail is in a different application on vms the number to call in new york city is the email address is info congruent com the product is ntnix other details i do not know they said they d send me email info but as yet it has not arrived more as i get it cheers folks snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation x motif more info here follows a headerless my editing email message in full except for the header sent to me by congruent corporation today i received it about minutes ago and still haven t read it have fun product overview allows existing unix x applications to be hosted on windows nt includes common x support clients supports x terminals provides multiuser nt facilitates porting unix x applications to window nt bsd behavior x programming libraries target market customers with unix x applications who want to standardize on windows nt allows hosting on windows nt with minimal effort permits x clients on single windows nt system to support multiple users x servers can be x terminals unix based nt based windows based bsd library behavior minimize unix porting effort layered above standard c libraries winsock nt registry path drive replacement bsd include file layout true berkeley sockets supplies common bsd functions missing from nt x programming libraries complete x v r libraries motif widget libraries motif uil registry based x configuration locator direct to windows gdi via local socket winnt x support applications includes full set of x client applications motif window manager mwm multiuser nt capabilities ntnixterm special adaptation of xterm special nt hosted command shell provides logname home facilities multiple users on multiple x servers can simultaneously access single nt system x terminal support bootp to boot x terminals tftpd for font loading font server for scaled x fonts xremote for serial slip x info com congruent congruent information snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	click to focus vs point to focus i am having the problem of ensuring point to focus when the mouse cursor enters a window in my application i m using interviews but that may not matter this seems to be a generic problem in x for example i use openwindows on a sparc with point to focus set and that generally works but not always depending on what was going on in some window when i move the cursor from one shell tool window to another or so it seems my question then is what can i do within x to guarantee point to focus within my application thanks for any response dave
comp.windows.x	x on amiga hi there were a couple of articles posted to this group the other day with the above subject heading unfortunately they expired before i could read them i could really use an xterm like thing on my amiga could somwone give me any information thanks larry r nittler
comp.windows.x	wanted diagram drawing program i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux system it must be free it must run on standard monochrome x with a small screen size x no motif openlook etc it must compile under linux with gcc g most generic unix software works ok it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable i know of several such programs idraw xfig tgif i have no experience with any of them features i would like in the programs are ability to draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects support for texts in any size ability to move copy resize rotate any part of the drawing ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component e g a transistor symbol composed of three lines an arrow and a circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid to align parts of the drawing less essential but in fact very handy preservation of connection if i move one part of the drawing the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing stay connected ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space memory and cpu usage are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x lennart
comp.windows.x	aix version of andrew the andrew consortium of the school of computer science at carnegie mellon is pleased to announce auis for aix the andrew user interface system version our cdrom version was developed for aix version on the ibm rs and many other platforms to accomodate aix version we have created a patch to the sources the patch and accompanying instructions for its application can be retrieved at no charge via anonymous ftp from the internet host emsworth andrew cmu edu in the directory aixpatch for those without internet access a diskette can be ordered for by sending or faxing a purchase order to the address below the base system can be ordered from us as a cdrom or ftp ed from the same host note that this patch adds no additional functionality but simply allows auis to compile under aix the andrew user interface system auis is a comprehensive environment on top of x windows in which you can create use and mail multi media applications and documents a major advantage of auis is the capability to recursively embed objects thus one can edit text that not only contains multiple fonts indentation and other typography but also contains embedded raster images spreadsheets drawing editors equations simple animations and so on these embedded objects can themselves contain other objects including text auis has three components the andrew user environment is an integrated and extensible set of applications beginning with the ez text editor a help system a system monitoring tool an editor based shell interface and other editors corresponding to the various available types of objects the andrew toolkit atk is a portable object oriented user interface toolkit that provides the architecture wherein objects can be embedded in one another with the toolkit programmers can create new objects that can be embedded as easily as those that come with the system the andrew message system ams provides a multi media interface to mail and bulletin boards ams supports several mail management strategies and implements many advanced features including authentication return receipts automatic sorting of mail vote collection and tabulation enclosures audit trails of related messages and subscription management it also provides a variety of interfaces that support ttys and low function personal computers in addition to high function workstations the current public release of andrew version includes support for the new internet mime multipurpose internet mail extensions standards for multipart multimedia mail a newer release for members of the andrew consortium has numerous additional features including new editors for drawings images fonts and user preferences remote andrew demo service you can try out andrew from your own work station via the remote andrew demo service you need a host machine on the internet running the x window system you ll be able to compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system to browse through a few of cmu s four thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups to get started with the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command on your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions more information about andrew is available from information requests andrew consortium carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh pa usa phone fax info andrew request andrew cmu edu contact info andrew request andrew cmu edu for additional information
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comp.windows.x	x r vs x r configure event handling repost i have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled i have an appl which uses window to draw in since i give the user the capability of scaling and zooming as well as allowing the window to be resized i made a translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls my redraw method while the configure event calls my rescale method the rescale method invokes a fake expose event actually just calls the redraw w an appropriate expose struct to draw the data quest when the appl is compiled linked w r running in either r or r env i get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered or the size is changed i assume i m getting cascading events is that right any suggestions as to how to handle trap events in a better way quest when the appl is compiled linked w r i get no expose events whatsoever do events and or translation tables act differently in r thanks in advance steve kelley umcp cs umiacs captain i protest skelley umiacs umd edu i am not a merry man worf
comp.windows.x	print from within an application hi i have an application which draws graphs bar charts etc i need to include print support for these from within my application i e a user can print the graphs from within the applictaion by clicking on a print button i am not sure if i can invoke xwd xpr from within my application and specify the window id to get my window dump and then send this file for printing or if there are other ways of doing this i would appreciate any help in this regard thanx mahendra ps please mail your replies to me as i am not a regular reader of this news group i will post a summary if there is sufficient interest mahendra chheda mmc cs rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept of computer science kimball drive rochester institute of tech rochester ny tel tel
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comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth christian mollard ec bull fr writes zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back any help in finding him will be greatly appreciated try david ap uucp david ap ztivax siemens com nope here i am david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer do not use v mail yet cccp x and object guru office c jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca that sun windows thingy what s it called you know its really awful x motif that s it motif yuck
comp.windows.x	subscrive please subscribe me e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in rmhiuinnh a skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff oops i didn t get the signal processing right thats what i get from doing the work on an ascii terminal here is the fixed patch the patches for xv h need to use ifdef svr rather than the overly complex if defined sun defined sysv in order to generically compile xv on i svr architecture also rand and srand don t work very well use lrand and seed to get better results otherwise xv compiles just fine on my esix system v box with xfree and gcc i just uncommented the gcc definition in the makefile added l usr x lib i usr x include to the copts line and modified libs to include lsocket lnsl really john if you just use the imakefile things like this don t even have to get mentioned xv h signal macros ifdef svr define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif ifdef svr define random lrand define srandom seed endif
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had the author file for xgif an early incarnation of xv reads in part as follows do whatever you want with this program though it would be nice if my name remained on it somewhere other than that it may be freely modified distributed and used to fill up disk space the readme file for xv reads in part as follows note if you like the program and decide to use it please send me a short email message to that effect be sure to mention the full name of your organization when our sponsors ask us what have you been doing it would be most handy to be able to come up with a nice long list of organizations that are using code developed in the grasp lab brownie points as it were the copyright notices as it appeared then was copyright by the university of pennsylvania permission to use copy and distribute for non commercial purposes is hereby granted without fee providing that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation the software may be modified for your own purposes but modified versions may not be distributed this software is provided as is without any express or implied warranty the readme file for xv reads in part as follows also if you find xv to be nifty useful generally cool and of some value to you your donation not tax deductable would be greatly appreciated u s is probably a fine amount to donate folks who donate and up will receive a nice bound copy of the xv manual printed on a spiffo dpi laser printer it ll look lovely mounted over your fireplace which looks to me as a suggestion see julian s comment above the copyright notices as it appeared then was copyright by john bradley and the university of pennsylvania the readme for xv reads in part as follows xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a printed bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge if you want one just ask be sure to specify the version of xv that you are using commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details the second paragraph to me says that universities must register and pay a potentially large sum of money the copyright notices now read copyright by john bradley was this developed on upenn s time equipment what do they and the grasp lab mentioned above have to say about all this richard bingle bingle cs purdue edu dept of computer sciences backbone purdue bingle purdue university west lafayette in
comp.windows.x	re how to mask the left button one way to mask the left button check the contents of the xevent that the xaddeventhandler send to your event handling function in your case it is the show mouse position function if the xevent arrive in this function as xevent p event then the value of p event xbutton button is the button that was pressed so you just do a switch on that value in order to distinguish between them in case it was not clear p event xevent button is an int by the way you mentioned the button motionmask and if anyone can help me with these motionmasks i would be grateful i can not figure out how do distinguish between motions by which button is pressed as the motion is occurring in essence i would like an seperate event handler for motion with each button unfortunately the xevent sent by a motionmask does not seem to contain the value of the pressed button any ideas eps
comp.windows.x	non roman font availability can anybody tell me anything about the availibility of non roman fonts for x windows especially unicode and or han idiographic fonts also how about conversion tools for getting pc macintosh fonts into a format suitable for x i would assume it is not too difficult for bitmap fonts the faq s for this group and comp fonts are not very helpful on these questions matthew m freedman u of washington information systems mattf cac washington edu th ave ne rd floor seattle wa
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff oops i didn t get the signal processing right thats what i get from doing the work on an ascii terminal here is the fixed patch imakefile objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo all echo building xv echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building xv echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries xcmap c include files include stdio h if defined sun defined sysv include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x xos h xv h signal macros if defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif if defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom x srand x endif tiff imakefile tif compress o imakefile if hasgcc g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc traditional o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h else g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h endif depend g states h clean rm mkg states g states h dependtarget
comp.windows.x	x face i m not familiar at all with the format of these x face thingies but after seeing them in some folks headers i ve got to see them and maybe make one of my own i ve got dpg view on my linux box which displays uncompressed x faces and i ve managed to compile un compface too but now that i m looking for them i can t seem to find any x face s in anyones news headers could you would you please send me your x face header i know i ll probably get a little swamped but i can handle it i hope rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	re x server documentation where can i get documentation about the x server internals btw i m also interested in documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co a the only book i know of is the x window system server x version release by elias israel erik fortune digital press copyright order number ey l e dp dp isbn ph isbn but if there are any more please post email me the names bkilgore thus spake the master programmer after three days without programming life becomes meaningless geoffrey james the tao of programming disclaimer any and all opinions are mine william bruce kilgore email bkilgore ws ips iacd honeywell com phone or smail n black canyon hwy phoenix az
comp.windows.x	getting openbugs for motif hello the title just about says it all i need a list of the bugs for motif thanks neal
comp.windows.x	xmtextfield truncation with lang bug i have found a situation which i think is a bug in x or motif but i m hoping is really just a mistake on my part does anyone know anything about this problem i am using an xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue to a hardcoded text string ascii or kanji either via xtsetvalues or xmtextsetstring the problem is that when the xmtextfield is displayed the text is getting truncated depending on the setting of the environment variables lang more specifically lc all when they are set to japanese the text gets truncated when they are set to english everything works fine i am taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding of text is not done in my actual application just in my sample code to make things easier i am running motif x r via hpux my test program is set up to handle bit kanji characters i have remembered to do xtsetlanguageproc prior to my mrminitialize and my font resources are set to japanese fonts don t know if this matters but my dialog box and textfield is initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts in my application is not an acceptable alternative way too much code to be modified while in beta i have a small test program which illustrates the problem if anyone wants it my best guess is that either the x code or motif is not properly allocating memory for japanese but since i don t have the source to look at it is just a guess please let me know if this sounds familiar or if you have a suggestion or if you want the sample program thanks susan swalker bbn com
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article apr alex com bryan alex com bryan boreham writes the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received this problem is caused by a bad interaction between the way olwm reparents windows a misfeature of the x protocol and a bug in the xt intrinsics the intrinsics bug is that it ignores the x y position given in reparentnotify events olwm is structured in such a way that when a window is popped down the last event the client receives is a reparentnotify event at this point the intrinsics notion of the shell s location is out of date if a setvalues is done using the same x y position the intrinsics thinks it needs to move the shell so it issues a configurewindow request to move it there however a mis feature of the x protocol is that a configurewindow request that has no effect will generate no configurenotify event the intrinsics thus waits for an event that will never arrive and times out after wmtimeout has expired actually things are somewhat more complex because the request is redirected to the window manager but the net result is the same the solution is for the intrinsics to note the x y positioning information in reparentnotify events this has been implemented and is available in x r public fix this is xbug for those of you who are interested in gorier details s marks stuart w marks stuart marks eng sun com window systems technology garcia ave m s sunsoft inc mountain view ca
comp.windows.x	xview window positioning problems i don t seem to be able to get window positions reliably through the xview xv get function x int xv get my frame xv x y int xv get my frame xv y for example if i set xv x xv y to the frame comes up in the correct position with the top left corner the size handle at xv get returns as well but later on xv get returns without any intervening xv set my frame xv my frame is fitted around a canvas and it turns out by measuring on the screen that is the position of the first pixel in my canvas relative to the frame s origin what gives any help most appreciated derek p s on a related subject is there any way of querying the window manager as to the thickness of borders it puts around frames etc derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	subscrive please subscrive me rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped i ve found that i have to add the option for displaying jpegs with the new version for some reason if i don t it goes into bit mode and the resulting image is displayed with colors from a x x array instead of and looks grainier since i m on the ubiquitous bit pseudo color display i would have thought it could tell that this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	x r support for i gx does x r support the graphics accelerator board in the sun i thanks in advance colin
comp.windows.x	repost cose gui this is a repost i like to find out more about this also message part text the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly do they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel do they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api do they mean both of the above is it possible that there will be a motif api complient toolkit with an openlook look feel how about an olit xview oi interviews api toolkit with a motif l f i know oi already does this but will this be considered cose complient will there be more than one standard toolkit api or l f supported how does using tooltalk fit in with motif this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free to e mail or followup gil tene some days it just doesn t pay devil imp hellnet org to go to sleep in the morning devil diablery a com
comp.windows.x	problem with german keyboard on a sparc yesterday i changed the us keyboard of my sparc with a german keyboard and now i cannot get any alt graph characters tilde usw when i exit from x i can get the characters but not under x can anybody give me some hints where to check for the correct installation of the keyboard martin kreutzer
comp.windows.x	what is second best answers please by e mail since not all groups in the header are carried here hi personally i like nextstep very much even more when i realise how much a burden ordinary x or windows programming is i also like objective c better than i like c but sometimes the restrictions are there for instance it sometimes has to be ms windows or x now i m looking for pointers to tools on those environments that come close to nextstep the appkit etc also environs that support rapid prototyping like with ib without producing spaghetti code as soon as you want to do real work maybe stepstone with some windows version of a kit of ui objects interviews what it is exactly i don t know i kind of lost touch with that world when i started with nextstep thanks gerben wierda nerd tel if you don t know where you are going any road will take you there from the talmud rephrased in lewis carroll alice in wonderland
comp.windows.x	sun with sunos as x terminal at the moment i am using a sun cgfour bwtwo with sunos and openwindows this configuration is slow and i can t run all the programs on ow for example when i start a mailtool from ow and display it on my ow display i can t open the compose window i want to install an x r or x r server on my sun and use xdm yes we have xdm already running for other x terminals to log in and start the x programs is there a ready to go binairy of the x server for my configuration i have read something about xsun or must i compile the x stuff by myself any help is welcome v smeets vincent smeets competence center informatik gmbh smeets cci de software engineering ada whois vs meppen germany
comp.windows.x	preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp to exit x hello i am admin for an rs running aix x r motif and xdt i want to prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc to exit x i ve tried invoking x with xinit t but that doesn t work xinit appends the t to the call to xinitrc and not to the call to x the man page to xinit is no help in fact it tells me that xinit is a script when it is really a binary file so far the only way i ve been able to accomplish this feat is to add the t to the call to x in usr lpp x defaults xserverrc i would rather not do it this way does anyone have any other ideas brian deford internet deford netwrx nw com open networks inc usenet uunet netwrx deford commerce park dr tel reston va fax i want to prevent the
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv cheers christophe muller simulog fr are you the police no ma am we re musicians
comp.windows.x	colormap problem i am saving an image on one machine and redisplaying the image on another machine both are hp model s the image is created using xcreateimage and xgetimage and displayed with xputimage the image is redisplayed correctly except that the colors are wrong because the server on the other machine is using a different colormap i tried saving the colormap pixel and rgb values and on the redisplay performed a table lookup against the new colormap this didn t work because some rgb combos don t exist in the new colormap is there a way to force the server to load colors into set pixel values or is there a simpler way to solve this problem i tried using xinitcolormap but couldn t get that to work either any help would be appreciated don lemoine naval surface warfare center dahlgren division dahlgren va dlemoin xobu nswc navy mil
comp.windows.x	dce rpc threads x motif clients has anyone used dce threads with an x client is it possible to have one thread listening for incoming rpcs while another processes x events how do you set something like this up atul apara ctp com
comp.windows.x	glasgow rx remote execution of x programs part i posted this a few weeks back but all i got back was an error message pnews dev null permission denied yep dev null had a mode of arrghhh with renewed interest in setting the display variable etc i thought i would post my contribution this perl script is my solution it trys to be intelligent about what it s doing so that you should be able to type rx host domain etc and get a xterm running on host domain etc with all the difficult stuff taken care of in theory this program can do everything you ever wanted to do when you wanted to run a remote command in the background it doesn t even need to be an x program try a rx big machine make for instance for a backgrounded make on the remote big machine for more details and a full list of features read the readme file about lines below all comments welcome duncan bin sh this is a shell archive remove anything before this line then unpack it by saving it into a file and typing sh file to overwrite existing files type sh file c you can also feed this as standard input via unshar or by typing sh file e g if this archive is complete you will see the following message at the end end of archive of contents readme imakefile manifest makefile rx man rx pl wrapped by sinclair dcs gla ac uk on thu apr path bin usr bin usr ucb export path if test f readme a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file readme else echo shar extracting readme characters sed s x readme end of file x x glasgow rx remote execution of x programs version x xcopyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x xtrivial to install but there s an imakefile to make it even more trivial x xthe perl script needs some customisation before it is installed just xedit the rx pl file and read the comments once you ve done xthis you can xmkmf then make install install man x xfeatures x x does the right thing for off site remote execution including x setting up display to include domain names and passing x magic cookies or doing the xhost stuff x x allow different remote user name rx l user host x x smart quoting of arguments makes passing wild cards easy x x custom command execution link it to remacs to get a remote x emacs command x x automatic xterm options names the xterm according to hostname x and turns on login shell x x default command is xterm x x propagates x ish env variables to remote session user may x extend the list of variables to pass x x special handling for bourne shell users x x tries to do remote execution from same directory as local x that is it propagates pwd in an intelligent manner x x logs errors in a file x x overall intelligence tm makes reasoned decisions about what x you are trying to do and tries to do the right thing x x written in perl for portability and hackability x xfor more info read the man page or the source x end of file if test ne wc c readme then echo shar readme unpacked with wrong size fi end of readme fi if test f imakefile a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file imakefile else echo shar extracting imakefile characters sed s x imakefile end of file x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall programs x xinstall safe x xinstallnamedprog rx pl rx bindir xinstallmanpage rx mandir x xinstall x rm bindir rxterm x ln bindir rx bindir rxterm x xsafe x grep s debug rx pl false x xshar safe x makekit m p x perl pi e s sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x end of file if test ne wc c imakefile then echo shar imakefile unpacked with wrong size fi end of imakefile fi if test f manifest a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file manifest else echo shar extracting manifest characters sed s x manifest end of file x file name archive description x x readme read me first x imakefile x manifest this shipping list x makefile x rx man x rx pl end of file if test ne wc c manifest then echo shar manifest unpacked with wrong size fi end of manifest fi if test f makefile a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file makefile else echo shar extracting makefile characters sed s x makefile end of file x makefile generated by imake do not edit x xconsortium imake c v rws exp x x the cpp used on this machine replaces all newlines and multiple tabs and x spaces in a macro expansion with a single space imake tries to compensate x for this but is not always successful x x x x makefile generated from imake tmpl and tmp iif a x xconsortium imake tmpl v rws exp x x platform specific parameters may be set in the appropriate vendor cf x configuration files site specific parameters should be set in the file x site def full rebuilds are recommended if any parameters are changed x x if your c preprocessor does not define any unique symbols you will need x to set bootstrapcflags when rebuilding imake usually when doing x make world the first time x x x x site specific configuration parameters that need to come before x the platform specific parameters edit site def to change x x site xconsortium site def v rws exp x x x platform specific configuration parameters edit sun cf to change x x platform xconsortium sun cf v rws exp x x operating system sunos x x xconsortium sunlib rules v rws exp x x x site specific configuration parameters that go after x the platform specific parameters edit site def to change x x site xconsortium site def v rws exp x x shell bin sh x x top x current dir x x ar ar cq x bootstrapcflags x cc gcc fpcc struct return x as as x x compress compress x cpp lib cpp std cpp defines x preprocesscmd gcc fpcc struct return e std cpp defines x install install x ld ld x lint lint x lintlibflag c x lintopts axz x ln ln s x make make x mv mv x cp cp x x ranlib ranlib x ranlibinstflags x x rm rm f x troff psroff x msmacros ms x tbl tbl x eqn eqn x std includes x std cpp defines x std defines x extra load flags x extra libraries x tags ctags x x sharedcodedef dsharedcode x shlibdef dsunshlib x x proto defines x x instpgmflags x x instbinflags m x instuidflags m x instlibflags m x instincflags m x instmanflags m x instdatflags m x instkmemflags g kmem m x x projectroot usr x x x top includes i incroot x x cdebugflags o x ccoptions x x allincludes includes extra includes top includes std includes x alldefines allincludes std defines extra defines proto defines defines x cflags cdebugflags ccoptions alldefines x lintflags lintopts dlint alldefines x x ldlibs sys libraries extra libraries x x ldoptions cdebugflags ccoptions local ldflags l usrlibdir x x ldcombineflags x r x dependflags x x macrofile sun cf x rm cmd rm ckp ln bak bak o core errs a emacs tags tags make log makeout x x imake defines x x irulesrc configdir x imake cmd imake duseinstalled i irulesrc imake defines x x iconfigfiles irulesrc imake tmpl irulesrc imake rules x irulesrc project tmpl irulesrc site def x irulesrc macrofile extra iconfigfiles x x x x window system build parameters x xconsortium project tmpl v rws exp x x x x window system make variables this need to be coordinated with rules x x pathsep x usrlibdir usr x lib x bindir usr x local bin x incroot usr x include x buildincroot top x buildincdir buildincroot x x buildinctop x incdir incroot x x admdir usr adm x libdir usrlibdir x x configdir libdir config x lintlibdir usrlibdir lint x x fontdir libdir fonts x xinitdir libdir xinit x xdmdir libdir xdm x twmdir libdir twm x manpath usr x man x mansourcepath manpath man x mansuffix n x libmansuffix x mandir mansourcepath mansuffix x libmandir mansourcepath libmansuffix x nlsdir libdir nls x pexapidir libdir pex x xapploaddir libdir app defaults x fontcflags t x x instappflags instdatflags x x imake imake x depend makedepend x rgb rgb x x fontc bdftopcf x x mkfontdir mkfontdir x mkdirhier bin sh bindir mkdirhier x x configsrc top config x docutilsrc top doc util x clientsrc top clients x demosrc top demos x libsrc top lib x fontsrc top fonts x includesrc top x x serversrc top server x utilsrc top util x scriptsrc utilsrc scripts x examplesrc top examples x contribsrc top contrib x docsrc top doc x rgbsrc top rgb x dependsrc utilsrc makedepend x imakesrc configsrc x xauthsrc libsrc xau x xlibsrc libsrc x x xmusrc libsrc xmu x toolkitsrc libsrc xt x awidgetsrc libsrc xaw x oldxlibsrc libsrc oldx x xdmcplibsrc libsrc xdmcp x bdftosnfsrc fontsrc bdftosnf x bdftosnfsrc fontsrc clients bdftosnf x bdftopcfsrc fontsrc clients bdftopcf x mkfontdirsrc fontsrc clients mkfontdir x fslibsrc fontsrc lib fs x fontserversrc fontsrc server x extensionsrc top extensions x xilibsrc extensionsrc lib xinput x pexlibsrc extensionsrc lib pexlib x phigslibsrc extensionsrc lib pex x x xconsortium sunlib tmpl v rws exp x xshlibldflags assert pure text xpicflags fpic x x depextensionlib x extensionlib lxext x x depxlib depextensionlib x xlib extensionlib lx x x depxmulib usrlibdir libxmu sa soxmurev x xmulibonly lxmu x xmulib lxmu x x depoldxlib x oldxlib loldx x x depxtoollib usrlibdir libxt sa soxtrev x xtoollib lxt x x depxawlib usrlibdir libxaw sa soxawrev x xawlib lxaw x x depxilib x xilib lxi x x deppexlib x pexlib lpex x x soxlibrev x soxtrev x soxawrev x sooldxrev x soxmurev x soxextrev x soxinputrev x sopexrev x x depxauthlib usrlibdir libxau a x xauthlib lxau x depxdmcplib usrlibdir libxdmcp a x xdmcplib lxdmcp x x depphigslib usrlibdir libphigs a x phigslib lphigs x x depxbsdlib usrlibdir libxbsd a x xbsdlib lxbsd x x lintextensionlib lintlibdir llib lxext ln x lintxlib lintlibdir llib lx ln x lintxmu lintlibdir llib lxmu ln x lintxtool lintlibdir llib lxt ln x lintxaw lintlibdir llib lxaw ln x lintxi lintlibdir llib lxi ln x lintpex lintlibdir llib lpex ln x lintphigs lintlibdir llib lphigs ln x x deplibs depxawlib depxmulib depxtoollib depxlib x x deplibs deplibs x deplibs deplibs x deplibs deplibs x x x imake rules for building libraries programs scripts and data files x rules xconsortium imake rules v rws exp x x x start of imakefile x x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall programs x xinstall safe x xinstall rx pl x if d destdir bindir then set x x else set x mkdirhier destdir bindir fi x install c instbinflags rx pl destdir bindir rx x xinstall man rx man x if d destdir mandir then set x x else set x mkdirhier destdir mandir fi x install c instmanflags rx man destdir mandir rx mansuffix x xinstall x rm bindir rxterm x ln bindir rx bindir rxterm x xsafe x grep s debug rx pl false x xshar safe x makekit m p x perl pi e s sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x x x common rules for all makefiles do not edit x xemptyrule x xclean x rm cmd x xmakefile x if f makefile then set x x rm makefile bak mv makefile makefile bak x else exit fi x imake cmd dtopdir top dcurdir current dir x xtags x tags w ch x tags xw ch tags x xsaber x load alldefines srcs x xosaber x load alldefines objs x x x empty rules for directories that do not have subdirs do not edit x xinstall x echo install in current dir done x xinstall man x echo install man in current dir done x xmakefiles x xincludes x x x dependencies generated by makedepend x end of file if test ne wc c makefile then echo shar makefile unpacked with wrong size fi end of makefile fi if test f rx man a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file rx man else echo shar extracting rx man characters sed s x rx man end of file x th rx march x version x sh name xrx rxterm r remote command xterm anything execution x sh synopsis x b rx x x b l x i username x x i host x x i command x x br x b rxterm x x b l x i username x x i host x x ir args x x sh description xthe x b rx xprogram connect to the specified x i host xand executes the specified x i command xin the background returning immediately to allow the execution xof x programs it copies a number of environmental variables to xthe remote session if you omit x ir command xthen rx will start an xterm on the remote host the x b rxterm xvarient starts a remote xterm on a host and also passes x i args xto the remote xterm as arguments x pp xshell metacharacters which are not quoted are interpreted on the local xmachine while quoted metacharacters are interpreted on the remote xmachine x pp xif the name of the file from which x b rx xis executed is anything other than rx x b rx xtakes this name stripped on a leading r as the command xto run on the remote host using any x i command xparameters as arguments for the remote command x pp xif x b rx xthinks you are using x b xauth xbased x authorisation and you are calling to a off site host or xto a different username it will attempt to copy an authorization xkey to the remote account otherwise it will try to use x b xhost xto grant access to the remote host x sh options x tp x bi l username xuse x i username xas the remote username instead of your local username in the absence xof this option the remote username is the same as your local username x x sh environment xif set the values of path display xenvironment xapplresdir xxfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath openwinhome ld library path xand xauthority are exported to the remote program unless the xremote username is different or the remote host is off site in which xcase only display is exported with in all cases any variables named in the xvariable rxenv x pp xthe display variable is tweaked as appropriate to contain as qualified xa hostname as is needed x sh diagnostics x tp x ib command don t recognise my name x b rx xcannot decode the name it has been called under in this case xit prints a warning message and continues as normal x tp x b rx usage rx l username hostname args xthis means it could not decode the arguments given to it x sh author xduncan sinclair sinclair dcs glasgow ac uk july x br xoriginally based on a program with the same name from the x b gwm xdistribution to distinguish this rx from other programs xwith similar names you should refer to this program as the x b glasgow x br rx x sh see also xx rsh xterm xauth xhost gwm x sh bugs x b rx xmakes a number of assumptions about the relationship between the xlocal user and the remote one depending on whether the remote xhost is onsite or not and whether an alternative username was used xor not x pp xin particular if either the locally used shell or the remotely xused shell is the standard bourne shell x b sh xthen strange things are more likely to happen especially when xit s only one of them x pp xsometimes quoting can get messed up x pp xit s too easy to fool the smarts in x b rx xto make it believe something that is not true and fail because of it x pp xwhen x b rx xuses x b xhost xto grant access the x b xhost xcommand may fail silently x pp xif x b rx xtries to send to large a command to the remote machine it will xlikely fail with a parse error from csh if this happens you xwill probably have to reduce the size of the exported environment end of file if test ne wc c rx man then echo shar rx man unpacked with wrong size fi end of rx man fi if test f rx pl a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file rx pl else echo shar extracting rx pl characters sed s x rx pl end of file x usr local bin perl x config change the line above to point to your copy of perl x x glasgow rx version x x copyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x x last modified early april x x distribution limited as per the usual mit copyright x x remote execution of x programs based on a script in an old version of gwm x x to install put rx in your bin and make rxterm a link to it x some configuration will be necessary see config comments x x more and more this is less and less like the original x x major hacked to work for our my set up and also partly x re written to work with sh rather than ksh x x maybe i ll turn this into our first zsh script x x looks like it turned into a perl script at some point big improvement x x this code tries to be intelligent in the way it works this means there x are tons of implicit assumptions about the environment it is run in x these assumptions are all valid on the machines i use and in my x environment at the same time i try to make as few assumptions as possible x about the remote machine here s a list of all the more tricky ones x that the remote machine has csh linux x that rshell bin k sh remote shell bin k sh make same x if remote shell sh that path is compatible use csh etc x i pass a cookie to the remote machine if need be but does it x know what to do with a cookie eat it x there must be others x x why am i using csh to run the remote commands simply because it doesn t x interact badly with rsh and hang waiting for a file descriptor to x be closed i d rather use zsh or bash or even perl but they are not x as universal as csh x x xrequire stat pl x x what we called x x argv x argv s x x config x change these variables to be your domain name and a pattern that x will match all variations on your domain name you must include x those leading dots if your hostname includes your domain see x the code further down marked xxx x x dom dcs gla ac uk x dompat dcs gla sgow ac uk x x config x change this to your value of bindir or set the variable to if x you think your users are smarter than that x x xpaths usr x bin x x config x make this the name of your remote shell command x x rsh rsh x x end of config x x some variables we ll no doubt use sometime x x usage argv usage argv l username hostname args n x rshell getpwuid bin sh x home env home getpwuid x xauth env xauthority home xauthority x logf rx log x stuff x debug x x before anything else close stdin this might stop rx hanging x due to rsh weirdness x xclose stdin x x do a l flag x xif argv eq l x shift x user argv die usage x luser l user x shift x x x pick a host any host x x mach argv die usage xshift x x things to think about for the remote machine x x mach s dompat x offsite mach x x where am i seems we can t trust the dumb user to set hostname right x x hostname env hostname hostname current host x hostname hostname current host x hostname s n x x if all your hostnames include your domain comment out the next line x xif offsite hostname hostname dom xxx x x now we know where we are and they are are they different x x diff hostname ne mach x x what is the display going to be x danger heavy regular expressions follow x this needs to be re written to be modular and can so be extended to x support resetting host to unix as required x x display env display x display s dompat x display s unix d d hostname if diff x display s d d dom if offsite x env display display x x here comes the hard bit in sh quote our args x also have to quote quotes to cope with csh braindamage x quotes are quoted thus x so for an arg foo bar we get foo bar x xforeach argv x s g x s x x x so what we doing x xprog x if argv eq rx last prog x if argv eq rxterm x unshift argv ls if diff x unshift argv xterm ls n mach x last prog x x if argv r unshift argv last prog x warn argv don t recognise my name x x x if nothing else become an rxterm x xif argv x unshift argv ls if diff x unshift argv xterm ls n mach x x x some special considerations if we are not ourselves on the other side x xif offsite user x x we want to pass a cookie here x x if e xauth x x this is going to be unsecure as the cookie will appear in a number x of command line args but at least it ll work x this will need enhanced if we ever fix the code above to x set display to when we return to the server x x cookie path path xpaths xauth list display x chop cookie x cooks split cookie x shift cooks x unshift stuff xauth add display cooks if cooks x else x x yuk what a crock i hate doing this x x system xhost mach dev null dev null if diff x x x we really only want to pass a value for display x x vars display split env rxenv x else x x some variables we wish to export x x vars x display x xenvironment x xfilesearchpath x xuserfilesearchpath x xapplresdir x openwinhome x ld library path x manpath for rxman and bourne shell users x xauthority x split env rxenv x x x braindead bourne shell needs to be given a path x we would rather not pass the current path because it might not work x on the destination machine i d rather it was set by the user s x remote shell during the rsh x fortunately all my x programs are in an arch independant place and x so it shouldn t cos a problem locally x we check against rshell because they might be running another shell x differant from their login shell i know sounds weird but it s too x common round here x i ve also included ksh in the brain damage cos i can t see an easy way x to pass throught env env without it being too late we only have x one person who has ksh as a login shell anyway x oh yeah we are assuming that if it s bourne shell here then it s x bourne shell there much more important than this is that it it isnt x bourne shell here it better not be bourne shell there x x if rshell m k sh push vars path x x x validate pwd routine x xsub validate pwd x local pwdstats dotstats x local pwd x x unless defined pwd return undef x unless dotstats stat return undef x unless pwdstats stat pwd return undef x if pwdstats st dev dotstats st dev x pwdstats st ino dotstats st ino return undef x pwd x x x try and find a nice valid pwd x xpresent x if pwd env pwd x foopwd pwd x foopwd s tmp mnt export x pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd x x unless pwd x chop pwd pwd x foopwd pwd x foopwd s tmp mnt export x pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd home x x x pwd s x x try to find somewhere nice to live on the other side x xunless offsite x unshift stuff test d pwd cd pwd x x x start building the full command x xforeach var vars x val env var x unshift stuff setenv var val x x x some commands to do on the other side x xunshift stuff set nonomatch only if we are using csh x x build the remote command x x remote umask join stuff argv dev null logf x remote s g x remote remote x x build the arg list for the exec x x comm rsh luser mach csh fc remote x x do it x xif debug x print comm n x else x exec comm x x x rsh doesn t return any indication of how it went over x on the other side but that s ok cos we aint going to x wait around to see what happened x xexit x x the end end of file if test ne wc c rx pl then echo shar rx pl unpacked with wrong size fi chmod x rx pl end of rx pl fi echo shar end of archive of cp dev null ark isdone missing for i in do if test f ark i isdone then missing missing i fi done if test missing then echo you have the archive rm f ark isdone else echo you still need to unpack the following archives echo missing fi end of shell archive exit duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs would the real unix operating system please stand up
comp.windows.x	subscribe me please subscribe me e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john it s a request to personal users it s a requirement for commercial government and institutional users someone else asked whether the authors of the jpeg and tiff software had given permission to incorporate their code into a commercial product i found the following in jpeg readme we specifically permit and encourage the use of this software as the basis of commercial products provided that all warranty or liability claims are assumed by the product vendor and the following in tiff copyright permission to use copy modify distribute and sell this software and its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee looks like he s ok on that account barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	buying x terminals we are planning on buying x terminals i have the article from jim morton regarding prices etc and am looking for any other information that will help me decide which to buy the terminals will be connected to a dec axp with mb ram running osf from what i have found out so far it would be best to run as much as possible in the terminal itself x window manager xterm etc and that in order to do this we need n mb ram in the xterminal where n ranges from to depending on who i talk to what should i be looking for what sort of questions should i be asking the salespeople thanks trevor j smedley smedley tuns ca school of computer science technical university of nova scotia
comp.windows.x	multiple not simultaneous server connections hi we have a requirement for dynamically closing and opening different display servers within an x application in a manner such that at any time there is only one display associated with the client assumming a proper cleanup is done during the transition should we anticipate any problems kartik kartik hls com
comp.windows.x	re xmtextfield truncation with lang bug in article lttm linnrli news bbn com swalker bbn com susan walker writes i have found a situation which i think is a bug in x or motif but i m hoping is really just a mistake on my part does anyone know anything about this problem i am using an xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue to a hardcoded text string ascii or kanji either via xtsetvalues or xmtextsetstring the problem is that when the xmtextfield is displayed the text is getting truncated depending on the setting of the environment variables lang more specifically lc all when they are set to japanese the text gets truncated when they are set to english everything works fine i am taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding of text is not done in my actual application just in my sample code to make things easier i am running motif x r via hpux my test program is set up to handle bit kanji characters i have remembered to do xtsetlanguageproc prior to my mrminitialize and my font resources are set to japanese fonts don t know if this matters but my dialog box and textfield is initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts in my application is not an acceptable alternative way too much code to be modified while in beta i have a small test program which illustrates the problem if anyone wants it my best guess is that either the x code or motif is not properly allocating memory for japanese but since i don t have the source to look at it is just a guess the problem was that textfield was improperly walking the string it used the character count instead of the byte count a significan oops the problem has been fixed and the patch is included in the latest periodic patch from hp support services tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped the copyright notices themselves seem to be making conficting restrictions i do not know how to reconcile copyright notice copyright by john bradley permission to use copy and distribute xv in its entirety for non commercial purposes is hereby granted without fee provided that this license information and copyright notice appear in all copies with xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a real nice bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details it strikes me that the first part gives you the right to use without fee the program for noncommercial purposes if the info appears in all copies this seems to cover educational institutions despite what the rest of the notice says and the first part doesn t say subject to the conditions outlined below chris christopher robin thewalt thewalt ce berkeley edu dept of civil engineering these opinions are not necessarily university of california berkeley shared by my employer
comp.windows.x	xio fatal io error problem posted for a friend without posting access but with e mail access help anyone i have a x client that is abnormally terminated with the following message xio fatal io error invalid argument on x server xxxxx after requests known processed with events remaining it has been known to occur when displaying on the xsun x r server it occurs with a higher frequency when the client displays on the xdomain x r server running on domainos on an apollo anybody know why this may be happening any suggestions would be greatly appreciated reply to has been set to me i ll summarize to the net doug leary redars software development boeing computer services dcl luey ca boeing com tim gentry boeing computer services gentry bcstec ca boeing com this posting in no way officially represents the opinions of boeing boeing computer services or possibly even the poster for that matter
comp.windows.x	image data format question i am posting this for a friend please respond to vaughn sonatech hub ucsb edu i m working on an application where we are creating a dither pattern and rendering it in a window by applying it to the stipple pattern of the gc the following code segment almost works if the window width is an even multiple of if it is not an even multiple it skews the pattern towards the right another problem whether it is an even multiple of or not is a series of vertical lines spaced pixels apart extern display dpy extern window xid extern gc gc extern int max x max y set in resize handler dither pixels char pixels dither pattern data char bm bitmap data char bmp long i arraymax arraymax max x max y bm char malloc arraymax bmp bm for i j i arraymax i if pixels i dither bit bmp j pixel on else bmp j pixel off if j bmp j stipple xcreatebitmapfromdata dpy xid bm max x max y free bm xclearwindow dpy xid xsetstipple dpy gc stipple xsetfillstyle dpy gc fillstippled xfillrectangle dpy xid gc max x max y xsetfillstyle dpy gc fillsolid i suspect the answer is to pad the data mike vaughn sonatech
comp.windows.x	re keyboard mapping and window placement questions if i use xt all o reilly has to say is is automatically handled by xt if i use xlib ala xnextevent i get nothing this all stems from problems with users of the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements that s not all it says the coverage of modifiers is in chapter of volume four or chap in older athena editions where there is about pages on how to specify translations to capture various combinations of keys or buttons the xlib route uses xlookupstring and there is a lot of coverage of how that works in volume one chapter you should read this to understand how all the mappings work before trying to do anything complicated adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped julian g self julian comp lancs ac uk wrote wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john yeah i agree i am very impressed by the kind of effort that has gone into the lastest release some people are just looking for excuses to gripe i personally feel that the work is worth much more that after seeing the kind of things people get paid for d
comp.windows.x	gui tools we are making a transition from nextstep to x windows i am trying to find the best gui tool for our needs i have looked at several tools but they all seem basically the same each salesman will beg to differ i realize that there are differences but i don t have an infinate amount of time to discover what they are the tools i have looked at so far are uim x x designer tele use tcl tk interviews and suit so far i ve drawn the following conclusions the builder for interviews is not very mature bad docs tele use is very expensive and uses a proprietary toolkit uim x x designer seem about the same even though x designer does not have a interpreter i ll by centerline if i need one tcl tk is a little buggy i know very little about the ics builder just have the sales info due to a corporate agreement x designer is much cheeper than any other comercial product for the time i m spending i could have bought all of them well different money we will have to live with any shortcomings and make it work this type of tool seems great but noone seems to talk about them on the net is there another news group for this suit cost too much for comercial development i m hoping someone out there has a strong opinion on at least one of these products thanks bruce trvalik aoa check your mind at the door the band that time forgot moose aoa utc com aoa moose bbn com
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped alas we too will have to stop using it brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va
comp.windows.x	re r table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry i just got a bug report and a fix for this exact problem from fisher iscp bellcore com greg fisher the most serious problem i have identified has not been incorporated this problem occurs when the table widget s geometrymanager is invoked by a child this will work correctly if the table widgets parent complies with the xt protocols however if they do not as is the case for some motif widgets and they ignore xtcwqueryonly then the sizing will be incorrect in order to see this problem the following events must happen a child of the table widget must request a new size the table widget must query its parent for a new size having set xtcwqueryonly the parent must ignore the xtcwqueryonly bit and resize the table widget as part of the resize xmptableforgetproposedlayout is called this will set tw table current cols and tw table current rows to zero the table will continue setting up the new size working under the assumption that it is working with a proposed and not actual layout at the end it will call xmptablesaveproposedlayout this will save tw table cols and tw table rows and restore their values from tw table current cols and tw table current rows however these have already been set to zero since the table widget has already been resized it will not need a second resize next another widget managed by some ancestor of the table is resized this results in the parent of the table requesting the tables preferred size since tw table cols and tw table rows are zero this will return x as the preferred size the parent is very likely to grant this request resulting in a loss of the whole table from the display he isolated the problem a proposed a workaround which seems precisely correct here is the new implementation of xmptablenewproposedlayout which will be released with the next update in weeks xmp table c void xmptablenewproposedlayout tw xmptablewidget tw xmptableconsidersamesize tw xmptableproposedcolsandrows tw xmptablequeryparentforresize tw query only no resize since we only made a query we should still need to continue however motif is broken so that we actually may already have been resized in that case the proposed layout is already forgotten so we should just quietly exit if tw table resize status rsduetorequest xmptablemakecolsfitquerywidth tw xmptablemakerowsfitqueryheight tw xmptablegetproposedchildsize tw xmptablesaveproposedlayout tw else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten in the process the xptable the fix is identical except of course for the names xp table c void xptablenewproposedlayout tw xptablewidget tw xptableconsidersamesize tw xptableproposedcolsandrows tw xptablequeryparentforresize tw query only no resize since we only made a query we should still need to continue however some manager widgets are broken so that we actually may already have been resized in that case the proposed layout is already forgotten so we should just quietly exit if tw table resize status rsduetorequest xptablemakecolsfitquerywidth tw xptablemakerowsfitqueryheight tw xptablegetproposedchildsize tw xptablesaveproposedlayout tw else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten in the process david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer do not use v mail yet cccp x and object guru office c jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca that sun windows thingy what s it called you know its really awful x motif that s it motif yuck
comp.windows.x	re overriding default wm behaviour just create the window in the place you want it and set the program position field in the wm normal hints property then map it then assuming they have a non brain dead window manager the user can say whether they want to us program specified positions or not for tvtwm the usepposition command in the tvtwmrc will do this now i m sure that by the time this message gets out of our local news timewarp someone will have advised you to set the user position bit in the wm normal hints do not do this it s evil it s a disservice to your users offler the tusked crocodile god will come in the night and remove your vital organs with a blunt spoon if you even contemplate it rjc cogsci ed ac uk o
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars hi i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables i used the displaymanager userpath resource in usr lib x xdm xdm config to succesfully pass the path variable but i am having problems passing anything else i tried execing home login in usr lib x xdm xsession but that didn t help i also tried using displaymanager exportlist helppath manpath arch which didn t work either i would appreciate any help on this matter thanks in advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	action translation table implementation hello our application requires us to capture keypad presses for all windows in a number of applications we are trying to use action translation tables to implement this we have only succeeded by assigning the translation table to every individual widget in all windows in a single application the xt calls we make are included below it would be much more convenient if we could assign the translation table to a class of widgets rather than individual widget instantiations and also accomplish it for multiple applications if someone could describe how do this it would be greatly appreciated platform sun sparc w x r motif static xtactionsrec actionstable up do up right do right middle do middle left do left down do down bye quit static char defaulttranslations key kp up n key kp right n key kp middle n key kp left n key kp down n key kp bye xttranslations trans table trans table xtaddactions actionstable xtnumber actionstable trans table xtparsetranslationtable defaulttranslations widget xtcreatemanagedwidget msg xmpushbuttonwidgetclass form wargs n xtoverridetranslations widget trans table
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc and network traffic in article rkloc k picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes in article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it well i can buy a bigger and more powerful server machine because of the significant drop in price year after year the link i want to use though isdn k is costly and the bandwidth limited that s why my interest lies in seeing if such a link can be used and see what traffic goes through it since i don t think tom always gets time to read this group i ll take the liberty of responding to some of this if you really want tom to reply you should send mail to support qdeck com a k line is certainly going to restrict you far more than the mbps ethernet that we typically run how restrictive it will be depends on what you run and how you run it i would think that a couple of instances of some really nasty program like smoking clover would make the link useless for anyone else on the other hand probably xclocks quietly updating every seconds or so wouldn t impact it too much in the real world you will be somewhere in between these two extremes going by the way i personally use x on a daily basis i wouldn t want to have to share that k link with more than other people having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone at your centre monitored the traffic at all are you running any standard ms windows programs like word what sort of packets go blazing through what size link do you have mb or mb what is the average traffic flow going through your network or do you have few high peaks and then many low points our corporate wan is as unique as any other the usage patterns are not very good predictors of how yours will behave the only one of our low bandwidth links that normally get used in this way is a k link to ireland that they often use to run a dos text based client end of a client server database remotely from the dvx machine behind me since the server end is or was always at this end california it is faster to remotely run the client via desqview x and have a short hop to the server than running the client locally and having a long hop to the server as i warned you this tells us very little about how you usage pattern will fill a k isdn link running word for windows remotely is going to itself be very usage dependent let s break it into pieces and look at it tracking the mouse pointer is easy and efficient to translate from windows calls into x popping up a menu is a little more involved and will generate some traffic restoring the screen that was covered by that menu may be easy and may not be does the server that it s displaying on have backing store if so and the server had enough memory the display can be updated locally and will generate little network traffic if no backing store then what was being covered up if it was a solid colored rectangle of space we can tell your xserver to draw that quite easily if it was a full color backdrop of ren stimpy we may have to send it back to the x server bit by bit dvx will do its level best to only redraw that small area but in some unusual cases the entire screen may need to be repainted assuning a x screen with bits per pixel that s bits that has to be sent worst possible case you re looking at about seconds in reality it would never be this bad since the screen will always have parts that will be tranlatable into higher level x calls it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also what do you mean by network things i vision using ms windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running on the server and all i am getting are the displays i am wondering how good is the x and subsequently dv x protocol in transferring these images with x calls and displaying them on a client s machine x was designed from the ground up to be efficient across a network it s pretty good for this x programs are best dos text programs are almost as good since we conert them to x easily something like winx is a hybrid we intercept the calls windows makes to it s graphics driver mouse driver keyboard driver and convert them to x the calls windows is making are in no way designed to be efficient on a packet switched network we go to a lot of trouble to convert them to the highes level xlib calls we can but we are somewhat limited because we only know what windows and its applications tell us quarterdeck office systems gary rich problem resolution dept anonymous ftp site qdeck com for write to pricing ordering info info qdeck com technical questions support qdeck com quarterdeck bbs
comp.windows.x	re wanted diagram drawing program in article roouu gdj tuegate tue nl lennart blade stack urc tue nl lennart benschop writes i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux system it must be free it must run on standard monochrome x with a small screen size x no motif openlook etc it must compile under linux with gcc g most generic unix software works ok it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable i know of several such programs idraw xfig tgif i have no experience with any of them features i would like in the programs are ability to draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects support for texts in any size ability to move copy resize rotate any part of the drawing ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component e g a transistor symbol composed of three lines an arrow and a circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid to align parts of the drawing less essential but in fact very handy preservation of connection if i move one part of the drawing the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing stay connected ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space memory and cpu usage are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x in the list you mentioned tgif handles everything except rotation and any size text it only supports degrees rotation currently it supports x r standard font sizes however it allows arbitrary scaling of the entire drawing effectively it allows any font sizes but you can only have different sizes per drawing tgif takes up k compiled with o option on a sparcstation i was told that it compiles under linux but i haven t tried it yet it works with both color and monochrome x bill cheng ucla computer science department c boelter hall los angeles california usa william cs ucla edu uunet ucbvax cs ucla edu william
comp.windows.x	xdm xkernel and olwm greetings we have a network of sun workstations running sunos and openwindows of these are sun s that we have modified to run seth robertson s xkernel image effectively turning them into xterminals we use xdm x r to manage the displays when we had xkernel machines things worked fine but when we installed more last weekend we appear to have found a weakness with clients to sparc the sparc window manager is eventually getting munged let me try to be precise the user sitting at the machine that does all the actual processing for these xterminals is having control of his keyboard and screen yanked away when this was the department chair it was kind of cute we poked at xdm for a few days and are satisfied that it is not at fault our current theory is that olwm the sun version was not meant for running multiple copies on one machine which is what happens the console user runs olwm and every xterminal logged in has olwm running on the xterminal server has anyone had any prior experience with this sort of behavior can anyone shoot obvious holes in this theory how about obvious gimmes and of course any ideas on how to solve it any ideas are greatly appreciated greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c m m s g w w x email for explanation if interested
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm in article cas org lwv cas org larry w virden writes in article frolv awvi iv s andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db andrew cmu edu writes i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work where can i find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource it doesn t show up in my openwindows man pages virtualgrabkeys is not an ow resource it belongs to olvwm mats larsson email mats larsson eua ericsson se ellemtel telecom systems labs phone s alvsjo sweden fax
comp.windows.x	malloc problem how do you solve the problem when the message cannot perform malloc shows for xtcreatemanagedwidget call i have the application written in x r running on decstation using athena widgets as soon as i added codes to do remote procedure call the program refused to work i also have my program working using just xlib calls with rpc my executable code is about m and i don t have any idea how much memory is the decstation any help will be appreciated thanks man l li manli cs uh edu dept of computer science univ of houston houston tx
comp.windows.x	xdm configuration hello we want to configure our x r sytem i mhz running bsd like unix comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it works an then connect to them but the only connection works is localhost an x indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm at boot time with no servers specified in xservers starting the x server at boot time with x indirect localhost the chooser menu appears with the machines named in xacces bye chooser machine machine broadcast the number of users on this machines and the load is displayed correct selecting an other machine than my own host the x server starts and nothing happens after a time out the chooser menu appears again i know the xdm bug in x r but all machines running x r please help lars lars koeller e mail uphya odie uni bielefeld de universitaet bielefeld germany uphya dave hrz uni bielefeld de fakultaet fuer physik d phone universitaetsstr fax bielefeld telex
comp.windows.x	efficient pc clients we re looking at various x clients for pc s and we re looking for some information about the relative efficiency of different products are any notably efficient fast are any notably inefficient i assume that a graphics accelerator makes them significantly faster right now i m looking at ico running on xoftware for windows sitting on the distinct tcp ip platform and it s not surprisingly much slower than ico running on the sparc s console what are the key ways of improving performance for pc presumably windows clients also what about async solutions yes i appreciate that it will be much slower even with v bis i m in the process of installing ppp with header compression how does that compare to cslip i ve seen a product called xremote by ncd that promises to be pretty efficient but are there comparable products out there if we re looking for efficiency for async pc clients what should we be looking at in addition to standard ppp w compression and xremote any information would be greatly appreciated i m still taking in all the information in the faq but any tips about the relative efficiency of various product offerings would be great i get the impression that discussions about speed are largely application specific but that not withstanding any comments would be appreciated thanks rob rob ryan system constructs inc rryan panix com
comp.windows.x	x design choice for color handling question most graphics systems i have seen have drawing routines that also specify a color for drawing like drawpoint x y color or drawline x y x y color or fillrectangle x y x y color with x i have to do something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint d w x y why split this into two functions why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john the fee is a suggestion for an individual but licensing is mandatory for commercial government and institutional users i wonder how many users of xv own the system that it runs on michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	encapsulated postscript and x how do i view eps files on x i have an image in color encapsulated postscript and need to view it on my screen are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv cheers christophe muller simulog fr are you the police no ma am we re musicians just use xloadimage instead or xli ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	re x server scanline padding question figured it out the answer lies in mit server ddx mfb mfbcustom h brian
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables one usual suggestion is to put everything into your every time shell rc file instead of your login only one which is fair enough if you only have a few users who know what they re doing if you have several hundred users who do what the books tell them though then it s confusing at best another is to have your xterms run login shells but that still leaves the window manager and the things that get started from its menus with the wrong environment our alternative is that instead of having xdm run the client startup scripts it runs the user s favourite shell as a login shell and has it then run the rest of the startup scripts that way the user s usual environment gets set up as normal and inherited by everything you can find an almost current copy of our scripts and things in contrib edinburgh environment tar z available from the usual places george d m ross department of computer science university of edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland eh jz mail gdmr dcs ed ac uk voice fax
comp.windows.x	xvertext version released now available xvertext another day another xvertext release summary xvertext provides you with several functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text what s new since o existing bitmap fonts can be magnified to give reasonable fonts at large sizes o bounding boxes can be obtained o the gc s stipple bitmap is honoured o font ids can be cached when font names are unavailable o an imakefile is present o the demos are better including a ransom note like the comp sources postscript one where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	help badmatch making bit win on bit server i m trying to make a bit window using xcreatewindow on a bit pseudocolor server as far as i know this should be possible if you server supports a truecolor or directcolor visual i m using a sun ipc with a rasterflex card running xdpyinfo gives screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch depths root window id x depth of root window planes number of colormaps minimum maximum default colormap x number of visuals default visual id x visual visual id x class pseudocolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x a class truecolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x b class directcolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits in color specification bits my code looks like this if xio dspptr xopendisplay null null logexit cannot connect to x server s xdisplayname null xio scr defaultscreen xio dspptr use this screen if xmatchvisualinfo xio dspptr xio scr directcolor xtern colorinfo memset setwinattrib sizeof xsetwindowattributes xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr x y w h inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results in a badmatch error can anyone please tell me why henrik winther nielsen ccccccc ii basic development cc cccc cci europe mail hwn cci dk cc cc ii oester parkvej phone cc cccc ii dk hoejbjerg ccccccc ii denmark e u r o p e
comp.windows.x	re x design choice for color handling question in article lu oftinnnfk cascais cs utexas edu sirosh cs utexas edu joseph sirosh writes why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on in x the drawing attributes were bundled into drawing requests that is the server s drawing model was stateless this caused problems with performance and network traffic so the x redesign included the graphic context to codify the drawing state most application designers who want to draw things in several different colors create a gc for each color during initialization then pass the gc id in each drawing request for more information see scheifler and gettys s article in the acm transactions on graphics
comp.windows.x	x perfcomp visualization hi is there any script program thelike already existing which could transform the output of x perfcomp a huge table into a nice d ish diagram or graph by producing postscript output from x perfcomp input maybe someone has already written such beast o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr cv ruu nl rvloon cv ruu nl ronald van loon writes in sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv we too will have to stop using it shame really it was rather nice still i have no objection to the owner claiming money for legit work he s put in we ll just go back to the older versions of xv simon
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped will there be no chance to get the author of this really superb program to remove the institutional point in his license statement or at least to say except educational ones at this i understand that use of this software by either commercial or governmental users should be result in a donation to its creator but the everytime rare on money universities schools or whatever else institutions should not be restricted if the situation stays as is and the author explicitely states that he treats universities and schools as institutions in this context i ll have to fallback to xv here maybe our disk capacity will soon be dead when every user has a copy of xv in his home dir o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re encapsulated postscript and x how do i view eps files on x i have an image in color encapsulated postscript and need to view it on my screen several ways are available pageview which i think came with our system so i can t point ghostview with ghostscript and the new xv package all do so i recommend the latter two especially xv if you want to do any conversion are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript i m not sure offhand but i will attempt to mail you the comp lang postscript faq which has a list of utilities greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c m m s g w w x email for explanation if interested
comp.windows.x	encyclopedia directory of widgets is there such a document either in the bookstores or possible on an ftp site somewhere nothing really fancy just something that gives a listing of the available widgets and the resources that are pertinant to them and what flavors of motif they occur in andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.windows.x	chars of big fonts are shown partially hi all i wrote a small application which uses pixmaps copied into a window to show some drawings this works perfectly for all kind of objects expect large fonts what happens on the screen is that the right half of the font is not shown the way i create these things is quite simple some aggregated code xfillrectangle disp pixs anycolor width height xdraw line rect string xcopyarea disp pixs win width height i am using a rs k with bos the question is is this a bug in the aix x server may be some ptfs or did i do something wrong within my code sorry for the cross posting but i really do not know what kind of error it is juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn germany tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	extension to damaged chars of big fonts sorry about the garbage code the following is used of course xsetforeground disp pixgc backgroundcolor xfillrectangle disp pixs pixgc scr width scr height xsetforeground disp pixgc foregroundcolor xdraw line string rectangle disp pixs pixgc xcopyarea disp pixs win pixgc win width win height juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article bglenden apr colobus cv nrao edu bglenden colobus cv nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas we too will have to stop using it brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va it says in the licence that non profit organisations have the rights to copy use distribute etc does that not cover nrao i sure hope it covers us please someone let me know if i have to buy a licence best regards ata mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine prince consort road london sw bz england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae uucp usenet atae spva ph ic nsfnet relay ac uk
comp.windows.x	need patches to use dev cgtwelve the good news is we just got two sparc s the bad news is that dev cgtwelve is apparently not supported in x r or x r does anyone know of a patch and how i can obtain it to either x version that will enable us to use x on our sparc s adthanksvance gina
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm regarding re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm euamol eua ericsson se mats larsson adds virtualgrabkeys is not an ow resource it belongs to olvwm not only that the olvwm version man page says it s called grabvirtualkeys boolean this resource controls whether the keys below marked as involving grabs will be active or not if this resource is set to false then none of the bindings marked below with an asterisk will ever be active default value true
comp.windows.x	geometry option greetings i need some help with the detail of geometry specification i have a program that uses xlib to create a simple window i tried to hard code the x y location in xcreatewindow but it didn t work i also tried xsetstandardproperties xsetwmhints with no luck could somebody enlighten me on this subject hans hans dulimarta dulimart cps msu edu pattern recognition image processing laboratory department of computer science michigan state university
comp.windows.x	re x design choice for color handling question in article lu oftinnnfk cascais cs utexas edu sirosh cs utexas edu joseph sirosh writes most graphics systems i have seen have drawing routines that also specify a color for drawing like drawpoint x y color or drawline x y x y color or fillrectangle x y x y color with x i have to do something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint d w x y why split this into two functions why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on for flexibility anyway what you say is not really true the color information is associated with a graphicscontext not with a display and the gc is a parameter to the drawing routines so if you need to fast switch between green dotted lines and blue ones of width you can make gcs for those cases and then simply do xdrawline dpy win gc red x y x y xdrawline dpy win gc blue x y x y for this effect this is eventually more complicated to do for the programmer but also much more efficient and flexible you would not include all the other parameters like line pattern with cap and joinstyle drawmode and so on in every drawing call so why do it for color btw stay away from xdrawpoint if you don t really need it to draw random points for image transfers there are image routines o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re encapsulated postscript and x eps is plain postscript it is only wrapped by some comments and stripped of any dubious commands for compatibility you can simply do save gsave showpage def include eps file here grestore restore showpage end of file and this way show it on it s natural page position and size programs may use the boundingbox comment in the eps file to do arbitrary scale rotate and translate to include it in more complicated ways than above o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	how can i get a window to draw in i have the task to program a x application for the first time and have some severe difficulties creating a window in which i can draw something unfortunately some basic books on the topic of x application programming are not available to me for the moment i am running a hp with hpux vue and x r using xt anbd xaw what i did until now i initialized the x intrinsics cxreating a top level widget with xtappinitialize i passed as a application class name commandwidgetclass then i set the argument values for window height and width using xtsetarg and passed it to the toplevel widget with xtsetvalues when i call xtrealizewidget i get a window of the specified size but i have no idea how i can draw something in it can anybody send me some help and perhaps some basic information how to use the widgets in which situation it is useful to use them and in which not thanks very much in advance soenke soenke voss faculty of economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld de university of bielefeld germany
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article bglenden apr colobus cv nrao edu bglenden colobus cv nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas we too will have to stop using it brian we where following version of xv and i have been very surprise to discover that the new version is a shareware what a pitty what i found on the inthernet was the freeware i make myself a freeware and i spent long time on it but i don t plain to make paid to use it i think if evrybody spent some time to make freeware evrybody will be paid by the use of other freeware here we will stay with xv and drop xv s meunier e mail meunier inf enst fr
comp.windows.x	re encyclopedia directory of widgets the only directory i know of that lists commercial and non commercial widgets is the ics widget data book ics sells the widgets for various prices there are also some public domain widgets in the delivery the ics widget databook is a subscription kind of thing where you pay some nominal fee get a cd with the widgets and then you can use the public domain widgets freely and selectively activate widgets which you want to purchase the right to use from them the nice thing about this is that you can purchase whole sets of widgets such as those used in dataviews i dont know there pricing schemes but it is often better to buy than to redevelop the more complex widgets especially if you only one customer to distribute to this is the extent that i know about them except that i got their databook catalog and it looked impressive lots o widgets there i dont work for ics or have any widgets being sold by them hope this helps you brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	compiling mh and xmh on sco i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile bin usr local bin debug off etc usr local lib mh mail usr mail mailgroup mail mandir usr man manuals gen chown bin chown editor prompter remove bin mv f if no tcp ip sendmail is available change mts entry to sendmail mts sendmail smtp bboards off bbdelivery off bbhome usr spool bboards mf off pop off options see below cc gcc ccoptions o ansi d stdc dsysv dsysv dsco d svid curses lcurses ldoptions s ldoptlibs lex lex sprintf int sharedlib off slibdir usr local lib oldload off ranlib off define bind only of the bsd named tcp ip is used define sockets only if the system has bsd sockets tcp ip options atz bind dumb mhe mhrc more usr bin more options overhead shadow sockets sys sys dir options tzname whatnow jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details i would have appreciated an announcement of the policy change dartmouth will not be able to run xv and i m probably going to have to take v off line i somehow missed the shareware designation in the readme of v and didn t realize that we were supposed to register i also debate whether this with the new institutions must pay policy belongs in the contrib directory on export to me contrib means contributed i e no strings except copyright attached pat wilson systems manager project northstar paw northstar dartmouth edu
comp.windows.x	multiple heads on sparc i have a sparc with cgsix cards in it i d like to have the r server recognize the second card i mknod created a dev cgsix device but when i brought up the server the second device was ignored how do i setup the second card note if i borrow a cgthree card and put a cgthree and a cgsix card in the same sparc box the r server finds the second card i then set the display to the second card and start a second window manager worse case is i trade cards with someone but maybe someone out there has seen this problem already email is preferred post if you must thanks in advance jim jim brandt hughes lan systems hughes network systems south winchester blvd suite san jose ca email jbrandt hns com email jbrandt hls com voice fax vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
comp.windows.x	re xdm configuration in article c adru jpf hermes hrz uni bielefeld de uphya odie uni bielefeld de lars koeller d writes hello we want to configure our x r sytem i mhz running bsd like unix comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it works an then connect to them but the only connection works is localhost an x indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm at boot time with no servers specified in xservers starting the x server at boot time with x indirect localhost more deleted you need to start the x server with indirect its name if you start it with indirect localhost it use the loopback adress as it s adress so when it try to contact another host this one try to answer on its loopback adress not good remember that every machine has the adress on the loopback network pierre verpeaux dmt semt lams
comp.windows.x	re encyclopedia directory of widgets i forot to mention the free widget foundation which maintains a freely available set of widgets info on this group can be gotten from free widgets request kazoo cs uiuc edu this list is maintained by volunteers and you may subscribe to a mailing list which discusses various aspects of using and abusing these widgets brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	need x win popup menu package rather than write my own can anyone direct me to a package that will let me create cascaded popup menus in x windows for reasons of portability the package should not rely on any x toolkit other than xlib and the xt intrinsics something written in c would be nice too thanks
comp.windows.x	re cannot create plane window summary i got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tv tv tek com i have just looked at the r server listings mit server dix window c and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error even though my o reilly book only says borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly as of the third edition june the o reilly book vol under xcreatewindow says badmatch any invalid setting of a window attribute attribute besides win gravity event mask do not propogate mask override redirect or cursor specified for inputonly window depth non zero for inputonly parent of inputoutput is inputonly border width is non zero for inputonly depth or visual invalid for screen width or height is adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	re looking for drawing packages in article greg greg software mitel com gregory lehman writes path wrdis gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn nott uotcsi geovision software mitel com greg from greg software mitel com gregory lehman newsgroups comp windows x comp windows x motif subject looking for drawing packages message id greg date apr gmt organization mitel kanata ontario canada lines xref wrdis comp windows x comp windows x motif greetings i am developing an application that allows a user to interactively create edit view a visual model i e topology of their network and i was wondering if anyone knew of any builder tools that exist to simplify this task in the past i have used visual edge s uim x product to develop other guis so i am familiar with uimss in general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology is created i want to provide the user with capabilities to support grouping zooming etc i am looking for some form of a higher abstraction other than x drawing routines to accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming if i have to roll my own suggestions greg greg software mitel com you don t mention your platform but digital has a custom widget neted which does exactly what you want to do cost is nominal or so call your local office the widget is supported on a variety of platforms and i heard rumblings of porting to sun etc so it may be worth the check charlie gilley digital equipment corp
comp.windows.x	porting athena widgets to xview i checked the faq on this first and no luck i need to convert the r tree widget for use with xview v the problem is the fact that xview uses their own event loop system and i was wondering if anyone had any tips or converted source on converting these pups thanks sean wipeout cmu edu
comp.windows.x	xarchie icon problems hi i ve just installed the new xarchie and it all works fine except on our grayscale xterm the custom icons compiled into the program don t work at all but on the bw terminal it works fine i can set the icon to an xbm file with twmrc but that doesn t give the neat o change when busy action other programs with similar actions e g xmail xbiff work fine the x interface author george ferguson suggests it might be a problem with the x intrinsics but isn t willing to hack around to fix it himself but i know zero about x programming so i don t think i can find it does anyone out there know an obvious fix for the problem andrew andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep t of astronomy and astrophysics u chicago s ellis ave chicago il fax
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables you should try having a xsession script in home to do these things xdm will start up your process using the system version usually usr lib x xdm xsession which should check whether you have your won and change to that if you do take a copy of the system one and edit it note that this file requires x access to be set gordon lack the contents of this message may reflect my personal opinion they are not intended to reflect those of my employer or anyone else
comp.windows.x	re compiling mh and xmh on sco jesse w asher jessea u me vp com wrote i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile bin usr local bin cc gcc ccoptions o ansi d stdc dsysv dsysv dsco d svid i think the traditional option to gcc would help personally i used traditional o funroll loops to compile it on sun hope this helps gonzalo gperez dcc uchile cl
comp.windows.x	how to make your own x face in x c easy steps will someone who can see the x face included in this header please reply and tell me if it turned out okay i m not all too sure about my viewing software i hand converted this thing in vi from a sun rasterfile what a pain for folks who haven t the slightest it went like this how to make your own x face in x f easy steps scan my drivers license into a pcx file use wingif to trim my face out of the license reduce it by half and convert it to bmp use paintbrush to touch up manually use wingif to reduce it by half again use paintbrush to touch up again use wingif to reduce it by half again and convert it to gif now over to the unix side use snapshot to convert the gif to a sun rasterfile use iconedit to touch it up and convert it to an x bitmap use vi yes a text editor to manually convert the rasterfile into the uncompressed x face format lots of global ed commands and by the time you re done you ll mirror hex bytewise in your sleep now over to the linux side a use compface to convert it to what you see here a m dob bo e eeqgbn qy en as u k g hiby x pd szf vvxcxsn mw g nvhe w x j s r zs o hfu lwzygh b try viewing it by whatever means you have available c go back to step but do it right this time rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	axe is available i have placed a new release of my axe editor in axe tar z on export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk the significant change this time and the justification for the hike in the major version number is o undo has been implemented by default only the last change can be undone but a resource is provided to allow the user to specify how many including unlimited levels of undo information should be kept also undo of undo is supported there is no truth in the rumour that the next version will be emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here is a summary of what it is all about axe is a simple to use text editor for x that represents a significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget it features amongst other things o multiple windows o multiple buffers o default menu interface o optional button interface with choice and layout of buttons under user control o minibuffer for expert use and access to external filters o provision for defining a keyboard macro o geometry specification and resizing in terms of characters o file selection via a browser o knowledge of line numbers o parenthesis matching o regular expression searching o restricted or unlimited undo o ability to change font o easy entry of control codes o xterm like keymap feature o easy runtime setting of selected preferences resources o both brief and comprehensive on line help o server mode with cooperating client programs o optional extension language using tcl o optional xaw d widget set compatability o collection of reusable widgets that embody the functionality of axe i have personally built and run core axe i e without the tcl and xaw d options on the following systems sun sparc sunos x mit x r sun sparc sunos mit x r encore multimax umax mit x r dec ultrix mit x r hp hp ux mit x r mac iici au x mit x r but not all have been subject to the same level of testing i have only tested the tcl and xaw d options on the first a number of ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back to me have been incorporated into the code and a possible scandir replacement is provided for those systems that do not have one although axe will probably build under r run time problems have been encountered in the past i have not bothered to try this version under r and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore if you are at r you very much take pot luck if it doesn t work the only alternative is to try the last release of version which should still be around it doesn t have as many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that it requires an old version of wcl or version of axe was nearing completion when version of wcl came out so axe never got converted to make use of it axe is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk initially and probably in due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie if you can t ftp try sending email to ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone in your message body you will receive instructions on how to ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	pixmap standard our group is interested in using a pixmap format for multi colored icons buttons etc that is easily converted to and from other format from resource files using pbmplus we can easily move to from xpm to our other environments of ms windows and os pm we were wondering if xpm or some other format is under consideration to be used as a standard by the x consortium for r as we would prefer to use whatever will be best supported by x along the same subject line is the reason the standard x pixmap is not used because it doesn t have an associated colormap and other attributes or is it more involved just wondering why there aren t editors for pixmaps out there for the original format email replies preferred thanks in advance john sigler texas instruments email sigler hp itg ti com standard disclaimers go here
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comp.windows.x	xcutsel or xcb question i want to do something like this date xcb s xcutsel to get the output of the date command put into the xprimary selection unfortunately xcutsel is an interactive little bugger and there isn t a command argument to tell it to just do it and not put up its little window so is there some other command that i can use like this or is there an analog to xcb that will put stuff in xprimary instead of cut buffer david schlotzhauer phone sas institute inc e mail schlotz unx sas com
comp.windows.x	help with xcleararea hi could some please tell me the errors of my ways i am trying to update a drawable this drawable happens to be a pixmap on a button the problem is that after i do the xcleararea xtdisplay m usr xtwindow m usr true this appears to work i then do sprintf tmp str r d fun xdrawstring xtdisplay m usr bmaps my gc tmp str strlen tmp str the problem is that the new info is drawn but the old info is still there even if i pass xcleararea a false and see it clear when it redraws the new info the old info is still there help please thanks randy paries rtparies turq b ingr com x cr intergraph huntsville alabama
comp.windows.x	x windows extensions for perl using the usersub stuff in perl you can incorporate things like curses for use in perl i was wondering if anyone had done this with x preferably motif and if so where i could get the source for it jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	re compiling mh and xmh on sco in article apr vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile here s the one that i used id mh v sources exp sco v bin usr local bin bboards on etc usr local lib mh mail usr spool mail mailgroup mail ldoptlibs lsocket lcrypt i mandir usr man cc gcc ccoptions traditional manuals none chown bin chown mts sendmail smtp pop on debug off sharedlib off signal void sprintf int options attvibug bind dpop dumb rename sockets sys sys dir vsprintf fcntl mhe mhrc mime more usr bin more popservice pop rpaths foldprot msgprot sbackup shadow curses lcurses ltermcap ranlib off you may want to use a different locking style my mailbox is mounted over nfs so i use fcntl style locking i also applied the following tweak to sbr makedir c src public mh sbr makedir c tue dec sbr makedir c tue apr include sys types h include sys stat h endif sys dir if defined svr defined ncr include unistd h endif include sys types h include sys stat h endif sys dir if defined svr defined ncr defined sys define maxpathlen include unistd h endif that took care of everything but the man pages which i installed by hand good luck steve steve alexander lachman technology inc stevea lachman com x fax sun ico laidbak stevea
comp.windows.x	desqview x over tcp ip how reliable how is it implemented three q s is it reliable how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x protocol does it just draw everything as graphics into one window or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly if i want to run ms word for example remotely do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely and then start ms word from that or can ms word be started remotely on its own thanks a lot ethan
comp.windows.x	none we are adding a motif wrapper to a family of data display programs these programs are each written as a main loop with these steps use semop to check a semaphore and if true access new data otherwise block new data comes quite often use msgop to check for messages and if true read them otherwise continue messages are user commands and not often update the display according to latest data and messages we typically have several of these running in windows plus a data producer serving some device and setting the flag everyone blocking makes sure the device server gets to run xt and xm also have a main loop model that we must fit into o reilly vol iv ch discusses adding a file watcher and also how to add workprocs that are run during idle time we can open up our existing main loop and call it as a workproc the problem is our blocking until new data is no longer appropriate neither is letting the program free run because others are hurt the unix select call lets you block until any of several i o are ready we want that for the x main loop except not file i o any suggestions or examples most welcome we run sgi personal iris and indigo systems morris hirsch aka morris sg nusc navy mil or
comp.windows.x	prereq public patch in the r file fix there is the line that reads as the subject line here i don t see a file fix when i got a few hmmm lines putting on fix it made me wonder if i has missed am i off the mark thank you ray stell stellr smyrna cc vt edu they call stephen the first martyr hadn t lazarus the rawer deal c s lewis
comp.windows.x	re preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp to exit x hi hello i am admin for an rs running aix x r motif and xdt i want to prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc to exit x try dontzap in usr lib x xconfig cu styx free software association of germany great software should be free software phone data
comp.windows.x	scrollbar in xterm is it possible to get an xterm scrollbar to come out on the right side instead of the left ron shenk shonkwiler r w georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism ma rs arpa ma rs prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	using xterm to display output hello i am writing a program which forks of a number of child processes and each of the children printing things on the screen quite messy in one window the xterm sxxd option seems to be the solution to opening up slave windows only to display output and i use the following code to open up a pty taken from stevens and manage to open up an x term successfully the problem however is how do i write into this x term please help static char pty name int pty master void int pty master void int i fd char ptr struct stat statbuff static char ptychar pqrs static char hexdigit abcdef for ptr ptychar ptr ptr strcpy pty name dev ttyxy pty name ptr pty name if stat pty name statbuff break for i i i pty name hexdigit i if fd open pty name o rdwr return fd return vinod email vinod ee wpi edu an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind mohandas karamchand gandhi
comp.windows.x	re keyboard mapping and window placement questions in article apr news mentorg com darcym fpddet mentorg com darcy mccallum writes these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions question deleted i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window i want it at the same y coord and their right left sides touching what i need to ask for is the x y coord of the window manager s border for the main window this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the x y after the move and seeing that it is right and in their next callback asking for the x y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border any help would be most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com i have done this before but i m not sure i used the best approach although i tried several methods you have to run up the window heirarchy using xquerytree until you get to the root window now this is not so simple because some window managers slap a window over the root window that is the same size as the root window so be sure to take that into account for further calculations calculate the position and width height offsets for each window using xgetgeometry be sure to take the border width into consideration remember a windows border width is on the outside of a window so the windows x y width height must be adjusted accordingly all of this should give you pretty good numbers for how much space the window manager is using now to place the new window you have to use the same numbers to calculate where you want to place it because the window manager will re parent it on the outside of where you place your window if i remember correctly disclaimer all of this is from memory and i no longer have the code but i did get it working under several window managers correctly feel free to call or e mail for further info mcgary mike d mcgary voice intellection fax lbj freeway suite arpa mcgary intellection com dallas texas uucp intellection com mcgary cs utexas edu
comp.windows.x	x server only on sun i have been using a hds x terminal and really like it what is really powerful is that it can run the x server without running a window manager one can then run a special client x program called a window manager either run motif or openlook from it s own firmware limiting the network traffic but having no home or run motif or openlook from some home place like a sparc or vms this is powerful especially since i can exit one window manager without killing windows and then start up another manager some of my vms tools need special meta mouse combos that work in one manager and not the other well the question is on a sparcstation running openlook does anyone know how to break apart olwm from the olwm slave program basically i want to run only the server and go somewhere else to run the window manager please respond my e mail as well as posting because of the large volumes in window x thanks scott moody there are no answers just cross references scott shuksan boeing com uunet bcstec shuksan scott
comp.windows.x	re desqview x over tcp ip how reliable how is it implemented in article c bflb kem cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes three q s is it reliable i use it all day every day maintaining our ftp site and answering mail via support qdeck com and i can honestly say that in the last few months i ve never had my machine go down due to any sort of tcpip network manager instability of course i ve crashed my machine quite a few times on purpose during beta testing and that sort of thing but the tcpip portion is quite stable however keep in mind that dvx and the network managers are only going to be as stable as the software they sit on top of so if your underlying network kernel is flakey you can t expect dvx to be terribly stable how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x protocol does it just draw everything as graphics into one window or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly it just goes as a window that has graphics drawn into it to vastly over simplify what goes on we just take the windows graphics api calls and translate them directly to x protocol unfortunately windows was not really written to be network aware so sometimes we see a speed penalty when an app does something stupid like sending a big white bitmap to erase something rather than just drawing a white box fortunately that sort of thing is rare if i want to run ms word for example remotely do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely and then start ms word from that or can ms word be started remotely on its own you need to run ms windows which word then runs inside you could run multiple windows programs within the one winx window and windows has ways to automagically start winapps when you start windows so in practice it s not really a major problem i have my system set up so that i can run winx which automatically starts word full screen for windows so i never see any part of windows but word quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address as password
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes hi i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables i always use the following in my t cshrc f login then source home login endif and in login setenv login so i don t need to set all environment variables in my cshrc but they get set if i login via xdm or xon xrsh rx and so on hope this helps bernward bernward averwald heinrichstr d dortmund voice fax e mail bernward moepi do open de b rcc de i think i need a lear jet
comp.windows.x	help building xview on sparc classic can anyone help with this system sparc classic solaris gcc x r when i try to build the xview libraries xview patched with the patch from the x r solaris kit i get the following error rm f ndet loop o shared ndet loop o gcc fpcc struct return e o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop c xstr l libxview xstr c gcc fpcc struct return fpic o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap c x c o shared ndet loop o in file included from build include xview notify h from build include xview private ntfy h from x c usr include sys ucontext h parse error before sigset t usr include sys ucontext h warning no semicolon at end of struct or union usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class usr include sys ucontext h parse error before usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from build include xview private ntfy h from x c build include xview notify h parse error before build include xview notify h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x c usr include sys user h maxsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c nsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning data definition has no type or storage class ndet loop c in function ndet fig sig change ndet loop c nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop c each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet loop c for each function it appears in ndet loop c in function ndet signal catcher ndet loop c parse error before ucontext t ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c in function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c at top level ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c storage size of ndet sigvec isn t known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop o rm f ndet loop o shared ndet loop o gcc fpcc struct return e o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop c xstr l libxview xstr c gcc fpcc struct return fpic o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap c x c o shared ndet loop o in file included from build include xview notify h from build include xview private ntfy h from x c usr include sys ucontext h parse error before sigset t usr include sys ucontext h warning no semicolon at end of struct or union usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class usr include sys ucontext h parse error before usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from build include xview private ntfy h from x c build include xview notify h parse error before build include xview notify h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x c usr include sys user h maxsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c nsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning data definition has no type or storage class ndet loop c in function ndet fig sig change ndet loop c nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop c each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet loop c for each function it appears in ndet loop c in function ndet signal catcher ndet loop c parse error before ucontext t ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c in function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c at top level ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c storage size of ndet sigvec isn t known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop o obviously most of this is due to the problem encountered while including sys ucontext h i ve tried several approaches but can t get past this point any help would be greatly appreciated mahalo nui o kakou henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts of beauty n a ohoku place hilo hi hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	resolution bitmapped fonts device independence i recently corrected the resolution on my sparcstation by changing usr lib x xdm xservers from local usr bin x x ar dpi to local usr bin x x ar dpi i determined that my x monitor was dpi by measuring the active screen area and dividing by resolution however this has caused my application fonts to behave strangely after some research i believe this is caused by my applications requesting fonts by family weight slant and pointsize i believe that x is grabbing the first font on the path with these characteristics and displaying it since i have only dpi and dpi fonts on my path the results are inaccurate i do have some speedo fonts but not for the family i am using helvetica i think this is incorrect the fonts should always be provided in the resolution of the display this never seems to happen unless you explicitly request fonts by xres and yres this is true of both the scaleable and bitmapped fonts for instance the command xfd fn bitstream charter will invoke a dpi font despite the fact that this is a speedo font the command xfd fn adobe courier will invoke a dpi font or a dpi font depending on my font path despite the fact that x knows my display is dpi and that it can generate an dpi font for me unless i my applications specifies a resolution x appears to pick a stupid default is this a bug is it a feature if so why is there anything i can do to get around this problem people have suggested that i lie about my resolution and specify a single font path or not both this would at least make my app consistent but i like being able to look at rulers that appear in my paint application and say yup thats an inch anyone have a set of dpi bitmapped fonts i can use system info sun sparc w mb sunos xdpyinfo version number vendor string mit x consortium vendor release number screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch xset q font path usr lib x fonts misc usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi thanks rbroders oracle com bob brodersen applications architect applications technology group applications division oracle corporation redwood shores ca
comp.windows.x	re help badmatch making bit win on bit server in article apr cci dk hwn cci dk henrik w nielsen writes i m trying to make a bit window using xcreatewindow on a bit pseudocolor server as far as i know this should be possible if you stuff deleted xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr x y w h inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results in a badmatch error can anyone please tell me why the colormap element of setwinattrib must be a legitimate truecolor colormap so use xcreatecolormap with the proper visual and use it in setwinattrib and don t forget the mask and the inevitable caveat i usually use widgets setting the visual and colormap resources rather than direct x routines so i could be wrong but i think this is the general difficulty allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed to use her account
comp.windows.x	the andrew view v no the latest issue of the andrew view newsletter of the andrew consortium is available the simplest way to get it is via ftp from emsworth andrew cmu edu in directory newsletters subdirectories ascii and postscript contain the newsletter in those formats if you have requested it in the past you will receive an email copy you may request to be placed on the mailing list by sending your request to info andrew request andrew cmu edu fred hansen
comp.windows.x	axe is available i have placed a new release of my axe editor in axe tar z on export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk the significant change this time and the justification for the hike in the major version number is o undo has been implemented by default only the last change can be undone but a resource is provided to allow the user to specify how many including unlimited levels of undo information should be kept also undo of undo is supported there is no truth in the rumour that the next version will be emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here is a summary of what it is all about axe is a simple to use text editor for x that represents a significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget it features amongst other things o multiple windows o multiple buffers o default menu interface o optional button interface with choice and layout of buttons under user control o minibuffer for expert use and access to external filters o provision for defining a keyboard macro o geometry specification and resizing in terms of characters o file selection via a browser o knowledge of line numbers o parenthesis matching o regular expression searching o restricted or unlimited undo o ability to change font o easy entry of control codes o xterm like keymap feature o easy runtime setting of selected preferences resources o both brief and comprehensive on line help o server mode with cooperating client programs o optional extension language using tcl o optional xaw d widget set compatability o collection of reusable widgets that embody the functionality of axe i have personally built and run core axe i e without the tcl and xaw d options on the following systems sun sparc sunos x mit x r sun sparc sunos mit x r encore multimax umax mit x r dec ultrix mit x r hp hp ux mit x r mac iici au x mit x r but not all have been subject to the same level of testing i have only tested the tcl and xaw d options on the first a number of ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back to me have been incorporated into the code and a possible scandir replacement is provided for those systems that do not have one although axe will probably build under r run time problems have been encountered in the past i have not bothered to try this version under r and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore if you are at r you very much take pot luck if it doesn t work the only alternative is to try the last release of version which should still be around it doesn t have as many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that it requires an old version of wcl or version of axe was nearing completion when version of wcl came out so axe never got converted to make use of it axe is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk initially and probably in due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie if you can t ftp try sending email to ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone in your message body you will receive instructions on how to ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	xw widget set ported to x r i m trying to compile xftp which uses the xw widget set and i m having problems we re using motif and x r and it seems that my version of the xw stuff was only ported to r are there patches out to port this to r or a newer port altogether or perhaps a newer port of xftp for use with r thanks in advance jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	hummingbird software query hello i am considering buying the hummingbird x windows software for a ms windows pc mhz ne ethernet board would anyone tell me if they are using this package in a similar environment and if they are happy with it i will be connecting to sun sparcstation running sun os thanks very much jim ennis university of central florida
comp.windows.x	none ubject subscrive please subscribe me e mail min stella skku ac kr
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article c c r so cs cmu edu tgl cs cmu edu tom lane writes commercial there s a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial it s illegal to copy this and we ll sic our lawyers on you software there is then why does the documentation say commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal it doesn t sound like a voluntary donation to me dave system administrator penn state population research institute define enotty not a typewriter
comp.windows.x	redirecting stdout stderr of a program hi does anyone know how to redirect the stdout and stderr of a program to a callback function in x the program does not fork a child process so i guess i can t use pipes can anyone help thanks deepak
comp.windows.x	wanted rolling demo creator wanted i have to produce a rolling demonstration of some x window motif software does anybody know if there is some public domain software to record playback x window events or similar thanks in advance paul bamborough bamboroughp logica co uk i must protest captain i am not a merry man worf sttng
comp.windows.x	netvis for xfree chad dougherty tv sucks case western reserve univ i know you re upset right now boy crd po cwru edu so i ll pretend you didn t say that slayer b student cwru edu homer simpson to bart
comp.windows.x	choosing a window manager a while back i e several months someone posted a method for allowing a user to choose via xmenu and something else a window manager interactively at x startup time could the original poster or anyone else please email a copy of the method to me as i have lost the original posting thanks henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts of beauty n a ohoku place hilo hi hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	vitex rasterflex experience i m going to be purchasing one of these soom for my ss does anyone have any experience with this card positive or negative comments welcome please respond immediately thanks joe joe mcguckin joe islandsw com island software oilean joe sgi com
comp.windows.x	planet x does any one out there have experience with planet x i am considering buying it to use on a sparcstation ipc in this way i can run mac programs from the sparc would you recommend buying this piece of software and what is the emulation on the sparc like does it give a window of a mac or does it give a window of just the individual programs any information would be greatly appreciated thanks dean institute of human genetics i university of minnesota i box umhc i if all you have is a hammer harvard street at east river road i you tend to look at every minneapolis mn i problem as a nail i voice i maslow fax i email dean lenti med umn edu i
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek the fastest way is to use an x server with shared memory extension it uses shared memory if it is a local x server hence images don t have to be duplicated and defaults to the regular image routines if either the shared mem extension is not available or if it s not the localhost sriram
comp.windows.x	xcomm in imakefile files i ve installed many x apps and have that many of them imakefiles that have lines startingwith xcomm in them when i do a xmkmf to create the makefile the makefile also has the xcomm comment lines in them i always have to edit out these lines because the make command barfs on them i was wondering what these lines were for and what i might be doing wrong that causes the make command to dislike them thanks
comp.windows.x	x meta file anyone hi i m working on a project that involves storing an application s rendering to an x display and then playing it back again rather than reinvent the wheel it like to find a file format for saving x protocol software that saves and replays such a session any ideas out there i ve heard that there is a version of xscope that will save and replay sessions i d be willing to share much of the code i develop back to the x community axel axel cv hp com
comp.windows.x	xv author is on vacation till may or so for all those people flaming john bradley the author of xv he s on vacation till may or i don t remember maybe we all should slow down and wait to hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc amir j katz amir matis ingr com or ingr matis amir system specialist voice see technologies ltd fax to boldly go where no one has hacked before
comp.windows.x	xview question yet another xview question is there an easy way of detecting when a user has resized a frame externally by way of the window manager e g grabbing and letting go of the frame resize corners under olwm if so please let me know derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	tn support for xterm is there a tn program which support xterm i don t like x at all you can t copy with other windows thanks
comp.windows.x	re tn support for xterm in article changj qucdn queensu ca changj qucdn queensu ca writes is there a tn program which support xterm i don t like x at all you can t copy with other windows thanks the x at export lcs mit edu supposedly does i use another x that was cleaned up by brian ward ward math psu edu which adds better color support and cleans up lots of bugs as well as cut paste i just put it on export lcs mit edu as x v beta tar z dave system administrator penn state population research institute end of article of what next npq
comp.windows.x	re xv author is on vacation till may or so amir matis ingr com writes for all those people flaming john bradley the author of xv he s on vacation till may or i don t remember maybe we all should slow down and wait to hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc while i have respect for john s ability and integrity i really regret his leaving just after a major release or more accurately making the release just before leaving several of us are having problems with xv and in particular i have issues with all the fixes that have so far been made to the imakefiles and xv h without john to adjudicate and everybody posting fixes that work for them chaos is inevitable let s hope it is temporary john guile skywalker brooks using his dad s account
comp.windows.x	source code of x dear netters could you mail the source code of the book advanced x window application programming by johnson and reichard to me if you need any source code just ask me thank you very much sincerely zeng qiyong zeng qiyong suny at buffulo
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped given that all the source code contains explicit permission to use or modify the code without fee in addition to the shareware notice i would say that the shareware notice is unenforceable all you need to do is make minor changes to create a derivative work which is explicitly allowed under the first part of the copyright notice of course this would be circumventing the author s wishes on the subject but i d say if you re not going to pay him no matter what you d be on relatively safe ground with that approach in fact given the internal contradictions of the copyright notices i d guess none of it could ever be enforced but not being a lawyer i can t be positive regardless the fees he s asking are not excessive and i would encourage anyone who wants to use the program to pay them if at all possible even though it is unlikely that you have actual legal obligations to pay the author it would be reasonable to do so to support his efforts if nothing else brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv xli and xloadimage have a goto flag graeme gill
comp.windows.x	x on intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix x faq last modified mar note this is a major re organization and replacement of my frequently asked questions about x faq list this article includes answers to i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options commercial options ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree what oss are supported what video hardware is supported what about accelerated boards why doesn t xfree support color vga modes what other hardware or software requirements are there where can i get source for xfree where can i get binaries for xfree iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers to general x questions since these are already covered by the x faq that is regularly posted by david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net if you have anything to add or change on the faq just let me know especially if you had a problem that someone else was able to help you with send changes to steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere in the subject line so that my mail filter will put it in the correct mail folder please do not ask me questions that are not answered in the faq i do not have time to respond to these individually instead post your question to the net and send me the question and answer together when you get it frequently asked questions about x on intel based unix with answers i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options the best option is xfree which is an enhanced version of x any other version of x will have slower performance and will be more difficult to compile information on how to obtain xfree is listed below x is the port of the x server to system v that was done by thomas roell roell sgcs com it supports a wide variety of svga boards there are major free versions x is based on x r x is included in mit s x r distribution ie you don t need to patch it into the mit source any more x is the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link w mcnab road pompano beach fl fax email sales metrolink com summary os qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview x venix isc solaris pyramid sunos hw ega vga svga tiga targa a mach s wd fujistu matrox microfield graphics r other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension xv video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino ca fax email info sgcs com or mips zok info summary os svr svr hw a ati ultra s diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker rd universal city tx phone fax email info consensys com summary os consensys v consensys version of unix system v release hw x r server support for vga svga other moolit motif x r clients the santa cruz operation inc p o box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary os odt odt sco unix v hw x r server support for svga a s tms x wd c xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting p o box columbus ohio xlab email sales x coher com summary os coherent r or greater hw works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including os vendors describing bundled software are welcome to submit summary information summary information such as the above ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree xfree is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r this release consists of many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights of the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai is an integral part of xfree selectable at run time via the xconfig file some speedups require an et based svga and others require a virtual screen width of the speedups suitable to the configuration are selected by default with a high quality et board vram this can yield up to improvement of the xstones benchmark over x the fx packages from jim tsillas are included as the default operating mode if speedup is not selected this mode is now equivalent in performance to x b x r and approximately faster than x support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients or both this support is for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga c and tvga svga chipsets refer to the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt s code from the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and is compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts in the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server s drivers and font renderers to be reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux a monochrome version of the server which will run on generic vga cards is now included the following key features were added with the release of xfree they were not in xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced to do bank switching of available svga memory to allow virtual screens up to x see the x manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added to the monochrome server and with it the ability to support a two headed server one vga and one hercules so far this has only been tested on svr it is also reported to work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations to consider due to new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for ps mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions of these devices were not previously compatible a new tutorial on how to develop correct video card and monitor timing data written by eric raymond derived from previous documentation and a lot of experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation of the compose key functionality found on many vendor servers see the x keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored at accuracies of mhz users may want to consider removing an existing clocks line from their xconfig file and re probing using the new server many enhancements in error handling and parsing of the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation is done there are many new options that can be enabled in the xconfig file see the x manual page for more information on the format of this file plus a number of other small things refer to the changelog file in the source distribution for full details also included are a tutorial on monitor timing by eric raymond and the current x mode database and a sample xdm configuration by david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys v svr microport dell esix isc at t mst consensys uhc svr isc at t linux mach bsd bsd is not supported but it should work the most active bsd person is greg lehey grog lemis de note that esix d and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free to submit patches if you are interested in tackling this send mail to xfree physics su oz au what video hardware is supported at this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng et tseng et paradise pvga western digital wd c wd c wd c these are supersets of the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga c tvga ati all of the above are supported in both color and monochrome modes with the exception of the ati chipsets which are only supported in color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using k of video memory in a single bank and the hercules card on the et only k of video memory is supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than k it appears that some of the svga card manufacturers are going to non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies to avoid having to modify the server to accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using an external program to select the pixel clock this allows programs to be written as new mechanisms are discovered refer to the readme clkprog file for information on how these programs work if you need to write one if you do develop such a program the xfree team would be interested in including it with future xfree releases if you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose of using xfree it is suggested that you purchase an et based board such as the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won t provide programming details in fact the xfree project is actively not supporting new diamond products as long as such policies remain in effect contributions of code will not be accepted because of the potential liabilities if you would like to see this change tell diamond about it some people have asked if xfree would work with local bus or eisa video cards theoretically the means of communication between the cpu and the video card is irrelevant to xfree compatibility it could be isa eisa or local bus what should matter is the chipset on the video card unfortunately the developers don t have a lot of access to eisa or vlb machines so this is largely an untested theory however we have yet to see any reports of things not working on one of these buses and we have several reports of xfree working fine on them what about accelerated boards at this time there is no support in xfree for accelerated boards like the s ati ultra a tiga etc this support is available in commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr an s server is available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd or jon robots ox ac uk for linux a beta a server is available for linux contact martin cs unc edu or jon robots ox ac uk note these servers are not part of xfree why doesn t xfree support color vga modes the reason that this is not supported is the way vga implements the color modes in color modes each byte of frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented as bit planes each byte of frame buffer memory contains bit from each of each of pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code is not designed to deal with this if vga handled color modes by packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could be modified to support this or it already may i m not sure but for the vga way of doing things a complete new frame buffer implementation is required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing is yet available from the project what other hardware or software requirements are there obviously a supported svga board and os are required to run x efficiently mb of memory should be considered a minimum the various binary releases take mb of disk space depending on the os e g whether or not it supports shared libraries to build from sources at least mb of free disk space will be required although mb should be considered a comfortable lower bound where can i get source for xfree source patches for the current version based on x r pl from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics su oz au under xfree ftp win tue nl under pub xfree for the rest of this faq these location will be called ftp refer to the readme file under the specified directory for information on which files you need to get to build your distribution where can i get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics su oz au svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue nl svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange ma utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr isc binaries under pub pc isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages x agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries under i ensure that you are getting xfree some of these sites may archive older releases as well each binary distribution will contain a readme file that describes what files you need to take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory is specified by the projectroot usr x by default variable in config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed in projectroot bin include lib this can be changed when rebuilding from sources and can be modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory is nonstandard and was chosen this way to allow xfree to be installed alongside a commercial vendor supplied x implementation configuration files the xfree server reads a configuration file xconfig on startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented in the server manpage which should be consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david e wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains a database of known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database is installed in usr x lib x etc modedb txt and is in the source tree under mit server ddx x etc this database is also available from him for the latest copy and is kept on export lcs mit edu in contrib x modedb z which is updated occasionally obtain a copy of this database it just might have the settings you need if you create new settings please send them to david for inclusion in the database if this doesn t help you the videomodes doc by eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials on how to come up with these timings it may be helpful to start with settings that almost work and use this description to get them right when you do send the information to david wexelblat for inclusion in the database note the old clock exe program is not supported any more and is completely unnecessary if you need to determine dot clock values for a new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file if present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values to put a clocks line into your xconfig file which is not necessary but will speed up starting the server in the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit if you have installed the server binary link kit it is possible to reconfigure the drivers and font renderers in the server this is fully explained in the readme file that is available with the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree first of all the server must be installed suid root mode svr why won t my xterm run properly if your kernel is not built with the consem module you should define consem no in you environment otherwise xterm won t run csh users should use setenv consem no the esix console driver patch is known to cause keymapping problems with xfree it recommended that this patch not be installed alternatively they keymap can be fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look at ftp readme isc if that s what you are running bsd make sure you look at ftp readme bsd also a separate bsd faq is maintained by richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should be available in the file xfree bsd faq at the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon fr pub bsd ports xfree linux you must be running linux pl or greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries x x mono xload and xterm are setuid root if your kernel doesn t have tcp support compiled in you ll have to run the server as x pn the default startup configuration assumes that tcp is not available if it is change the two files usr x bin startx and usr x lib x xdm xservers removing the pn argument to x make sure dev console is either a link to dev tty or has the major number minor number also note that if dev console is not owned by the user running x then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won t when running xdm from rc local you will need to provide it with a tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution on tsx mit edu mach make sure you look at ftp readme mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since it is fully explained in ftp readme and the os specific readmes please look at those files for information on building xfree vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library a lot of clients make use of bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set up to link with libxbsd a which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed a better way of providing the b functions is to include x xfuncs h in source files that call them xfuncs h provides macro definitions for these in terms of the sysv mem functions if you are linking with a vendor supplied library which calls some of these functions then you should link with libxbsd a ansiccoptions this is something that was added to allow a developer to get rid of the ansi ness defined in the default ccoptions without having to rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you d see something like ccoptions ansi o fwritable strings and to get rid of the ansi ness the developer would have to put ccoptions o fwritable strings in his imakefile with this change you would see a default of ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o fwritable strings and all the developer would have to put in the imakefile is ansiccoptions to get rid of the ansi ness many x clients will die a horrible death with ansi the effect is even more dramatic in practice because ccoptions is actually quite complex the other issue is that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions to a passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support is coordinated by the xfree core team at this time the core team consists of the original gang of four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux e mail sent to xfree physics su oz au will reach all of the core team thanks to all the people who already sent me corrections or additions especially david wexelblat one of the major contributors of updates steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university of toronto phone
comp.windows.x	open look gui frequently asked questions frequently asked questions about the open look graphical user interface if your question isn t here please try at least man openwin man xnews man xview and looking in the appropriate manuals listed in the bibliography below before posting to the comp windows open look comp windows x or alt toolkits xview newsgroups and or their corresponding mailing lists special notes i have not updated this faq for the recently announced openwindows due to ship later this year yes sun is moving to motif along with all of cose but the motif to which they move will be a new motif with some of the open look ui features added yes openwindows will use dps instead of news news is dead this means tnt is dead too xview and olit will be supported but probably not enhanced after the next release i don t know if there will be a source release of xview or not the cose environment will include at least some of sun s deskset ported to motif look for calendar manager and mailtool at least yes the new mailtool will be mime compliant frequently asked questions for x are posted to comp windows x monthly this is version revision last posted version contents in rn and trn you can use control g to go to the next topic subject terminology open look openwindows x xview mo olit motif subject window managers olwm olvwm subject openwindows terminals and other displays subject configuration files getting started with openwindows subject key bindings cut and paste subject applications finding out subject deskset calendar manager etc subject trouble shooting strange error messages subject trouble shooting it won t let me type subject trouble shooting not authorized to use display subject trouble shooting other common problems subject trouble shooting xview problems subject fonts subject environment variables subject where can i get it ftp implementations etc subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats subject getting this file revision history recent changes subject terminology open look openwindows x xview olit moolit motif what is open look open look is a specification of a graphical user interface gui a gui determines the look and feel of a system the shape of windows buttons and scroll bars how you resize things how you edit files etc the open look gui is specified developed and maintained jointly by sun microsystems and at t or usl see also bibliography what is openwindows openwindows is a windowing environment that conforms to the open look graphical user interface specifications it s compatible with the x window system from mit as well as currently sun s news and sunview so you can intermix programs written for any of those systems it comes from sun and also with system v release from certain vendors openwindows is sometimes also called openwin or xnews after the program used to start it and the main executable itself respectively it should not be called windows or open look or openlook as these terms are either wrong or apply to something else a commerical openwindows source licence costs about for the server plus about for deskset and another for tooltalk the current versions of openwindows for various platforms are sunos on sun solaris x sunos x on sparc solaris sunos on sparc see also mixing x and openwindows where can i get it what are olit xview and tnt these are all toolkits for programmers to use in developing programs that conform to the open look specifications see the bibliography for documentation on the individual toolkits here s a brief summary olit was at t s open look intrinsics toolkit for the x window system it used a widget set and was probably the easiest for people who were already x xt programmers to learn you could buy the source from at t although you didn t get the same version tht sun ship sun includes the olit library in openwindows q v it is also often included in system v release it was written in c the release of olit in openwindows was olit olit support passed to usl then a division of at t now owned by novell who replaced it with moolit q v note that because of the nature of xt subclassing you will probably want or need olit source in order to develop a large application or anything else that uses subclasses see the proceedings of the x technical conference xview is sun s toolkit for x written in c xview is similar in programmer interface to sunview there s even a shell script to help migrate source code from sunview to xview xview is often said to be the easiest toolkit to learn if you are not familiar with x windows the xview toolkit is included in openwindows and full source is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere the current version of xview from sun is despite rumours to the contrary some even from within sun the xview toolkit is not about to be dropped by sun xview will be included in the next release of openwindows unlike news on the other hand the xview toolkit is not likely to receive as much attention from sun in the future as olit the news toolkit tnt was an object oriented programming system based on the postscript language and news tnt implements many of the open look interface components required to build the user interface of an application it s currently included in openwindows the current version of tnt from sun is release contains some incompatibilities with tnt and tnt but sun are committed to supporting the api at least until they stop news support some time later this year and replace it with display postscript wail you might ask what is committed to means in this context the answer seems to be that it means absolutely nothing sun currently asserts that it is committed to olit however the c user interface toolkit uit consists of an object oriented c class library layered on top of xview and a tool to generate code from devguide gil files the uit also includes features that simplify event management and the use of postscript and color it is said to be compatible with openwindows v and v and presumably v since the release mentions that it works on solaris uit is not an official sun supported product but an ongoing project of various people within sun it can be found on export lcs mit edu in the mit contrib directory as uitv tar z use binary mode where does motif fit in it doesn t motif is an alternative graphical user interface that is being developed by osf it has a look and feel reminiscent of microsoft windows and the os presentation manager there are no non commercial motif toolkits available although the motif source is sold reasonably cheaply by osf although motif is currently available on more platforms than openwindows the open look gui is almost certainly used on many more machines simply because sun and sysvr have such a large installed base sun s cd ware volume contains a roadmap for improving motif applications by converting them to olit there are also notes in the periodic table olit demo openwinhome demo olittable what is moolit moolit is a version of olit from at t usl that lets users choose between a motif and an open look ui feel at run time it will be part of system v release contact joanne newbauer jo usl com what about that display postscript thing sun and adobe have agreed that sun will include the dps extension to x in the next release of openwindows dps is essentially a badly designed hack on top of a slow level postscript interpreter intended to give a very small subset of the functionality of news whilst simultaneously being harder to use as i understand it the only real advantage it has over news is that the manual is much smaller being generally less complete dps is also available on more kinds of machine performance on our rs is not suitable for interactive work what it will be like on the sparcstation remains to be seen note that whereas x news fonts are shared by both subsystems the dps extension to x does not make type postscript fonts available to ordinary x programs it is not like atm on a pc in this regard there is at least one third party version which does make fonts available however subject window managers olwm olvwm what are olwm and olvwm they are window managers a window manager is the part of the x window system e g x that is responsible for deciding how to lay out windows on the screen and for managing the user s interaction with the windows olwm is the standard open look window manager it s included with all of the openwindows q v implementations and you can also get the source by ftp since sun donated it olvwm is a version of olwm that manages a virtual desktop hence the v in its name it shows a little map on the screen with the currently displayed area represented by a little rectangle you can move around by dragging the rectangle or with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one to the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm by scott oaks you need to have xview to compile it get olvwm from an ftp site such as export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory there are three patches can i use my favorite window manager with openwindows instead of olwm yes if you use twm for example or mwm you won t be able to use the pin and unpin feature of olwm and you probably won t see the footers some windows use to display certain messages if you use twm you ll want to use the f delete function to unpin menus and get rid of programs that don t have a quit button when not run under olwm for twm put this in your home twmrc lefttitlebutton target f delete where target is a x icon from usr include x bitmaps alternatively try add a menu to each window managed by twm or tvtwm lefttitlebutton menu f menu ol menu menu ol menu quit f delete for mwm you can double click on the menu icon on the left of the title bar to dismiss a pop up window i am told see the manual page for your window manager twm etc subject openwindows terminals and other displays can i use olwm and olvwm without openwindows or on an x terminal the openwindows xnews server combines sunview news postscript and x this means that it can run programs compiled for any of those systems unfortunately it means that some openwindows programs need either news or sunview support and thus won t run on an x terminal this includes pageview in particular you can use olwm or olvwm see above on an x terminal or a non open windows display and most open look clients e g olit or xview ones will work perfectly well you may find that you get complaints about fonts not being found if so see the fonts section below if you are running the window manager built in to an ncd terminal you may have problems with input focus setting input true in the terminal s xdefault file in usr lib x xdm may or may not help subject configuration files getting started with openwindows what configuration files do i need to know about xinitrc and xsessionrc the first time you run openwindows a xinitrc file will be created in your login directory home if it already exists you might have to edit it somewhat it s simplest to move it and any other old x files you have to another directory and then merge the old and new files if your site uses xdm you should use xsession instead of xinitrc since xdm doesn t look at your xinitrc file openwin init openwin menu and openwin sys these are optional files you can create in your home directory depending on which version of olwm or olvwm you use look in openwinhome lib normally usr openwin lib for these files without the leading and copy any you want to change you may need to edit your xinitrc to get them recognized if you are not on an x terminal you will want to run a console window such as cmdtool c shelltool c xterm c or chuck musciano s contool program so that system output will be directed there instead of writing over your screen note that openwin sys is not executed unless you edit xinitrc xdefaults you can put x windows resource specifications in here in particular it is a good idea to include at least openwindows focuslenience true input true these allow non icccm compliant programs to receive input even if they forget to ask for it props the program that runs when you select properties from the default root menu under olwm or olvwm writes your choices into xdefaults don t put comments in xdefaults since props deletes them startup ps this is the news user profile file read by openwindows actually xnews on startup this is documented in the news programming manual near the back the most useful thing to put here is postscript code to change the keyboard repeat rate although you must be very careful since a syntax error in the postscript means that xnews will either not start up at all or will get broken in strange ways the news manual gives code that is both incorrect and insufficient warning things in this file rarely work on both openwindows and note that the mouse speed is best set in your xinitrc with xset m see the man page for xset man xset and xset help for more information here s what home startup ps should look like if you want a delay of about a third of a second microseconds and a repeat rate of twenty or so keys per second microseconds between repeats for openwindows you ll have to experiment a bit because the repeattime is the delay between keys sent and thus doesn t include the time to process each key which is probably higher on my than on your supersparc gti injection again this is for openwindows don t want the demos see p xxxii of news toolkit reference manual includedemos false def userprofile begin keyrepeatthresh timeval storetimeval def keyrepeattime timeval storetimeval def note and differ greatly end you must also have a user ps file in the same directory like this news findpackage beginpackage tntcore findpackage beginpackage tnt findpackage beginpackage classrepeatkeys pop force repeat ps to autoload endpackage endpackage endpackage if you change these parameters you can test them without restarting the openwindows server like this psh i startup ps welcome to x news version psh i welcome to x news version classinit classrepeatkeys send now press control d you can also either of these two files startup ps and user ps to make the root window be retained so that a postscript drawing on the background won t be erased when you move windows frambuffer retained true put will do this note that this may increase the amount of memory used by the news server xnews dramatically see also trouble shooting it won t let me type trouble shooting is there an easy way to edit xdefaults environment variables how can i configure open look for a left handed mouse and keyboard you can use xmodmap to change the mouse buttons but be prepared for one or two occasional surprises see also man xview for a list of keybindings you can change at least for xview programs with openwindows you can use defaultsedit to set the mouse mappings and then let sunview handle them the status returned by svenv should tell you whether your server is running under sunview or not put this in your xinitrc if eval svenv env then xmodmap e pointer input from defaults else xmodmap e pointer fi how can i get the screen to go blank when the system is idle run screenblank from etc rc local if you can it s a boring but effective screen saver see man screenblank under solaris you ll need to copy screenblank from an older system as it s not supplied then add a new file in etc rc d to make the system run screenblank automatically subject key bindings cut and paste how do i cut and paste between xterm and openwindows programs to go from xterm to textedit say select the text you want to copy by dragging the select mouse button in xterm press copy in the xterm this key is l or meta c the o reilly xview manual gets this wrong move to the textedit window and press paste l or meta v if this doesn t work see trouble shooting cut and paste to go the other way from textedit to xterm select the text in textedit no need to use copy move to the xterm window and press adjust the middle mouse button you can also use the copy cut and paste buttons copy paste is boring what short cuts are available quick copy within textedit mailtool etc click select to get a text caret where you want the copied text to go press and hold down the paste or cut button select the text you want to copy move you ll see that it s underlined or crossed out as appropriate in the jed demo it goes grey let go of the paste or cut button the text you underlined or crossed out appears at the insert caret drag and drop to move a selection select the text you want to copy or move by dragging or multiple clicking the select or adjust mouse button put the mouse pointer anywhere within the selection press and hold down down the select mouse button and move the mouse pointer a little to the right you ll see the cursor changes to be the first letters of the text or some other icon still holding select down move the mouse over the point where you want to drop the text you may see the mouse pointer change to a rifle sight or target to show that it s ok to drop things here let go of select and the text is moved this works in text fields of dialogue boxes as well as in text subwindows drag and drop to copy a selection this is the same as using drag and drop to move a selection except that you must hold the control key down as well as the select mouse button what are the default key bindings in textedit and elsewhere see the man page for textedit for some of them in general the editing moving commands go in the opposite direction when shifted e g ctrl w deletes a word and ctrl w deletes the word to the right of the insert point meta i include file meta f find selection forward backward ctrl a start of line ctrl back word ctrl e end of line ctrl forward word ctrl w delete word ctrl u delete to start end of line ctrl return move to end start of document see the o reilly xview reference manual for a list of some of the default keys see also the olwm or olvwm manual page what can i put in my ttysrc where is it documented see the manual page for shelltool subject applications finding out contact sunsoft or sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages of applications and also the huge catalyst listing of products for suns updated six monthly sun s free cdware cd roms each contain demo versions of several popular open look applications often you can simply contact the vendor concerned to have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation sunpics produces a cd rom for newsprint users printer s pallate which contains newsprint drivers for a variety of printers and plotters as well as scaleable fonts that you can license there is a separate faq posting in comp windows open look that lists a number of free and commercial aplications mail lee sq com for a copy including open look ui application list in the subject for a faster reply subject deskset mailtool calendar manager etc is there a tty based interface to cm calendar manager yes cm delete cm insert and cm lookup these all have manual pages if man cm delete doesn t work or gives strange messages see under trouble shooting strange error messages below how can i arrange to have my signature included in my outgoing mail the best way is cd cp usr lib textswrc chmod w textswrc edit textswrc use vi textedit or whatever you prefer add the follwing key right filter cat signature you might need to change to home now pressing r will insert your signature file subject fonts does openwindows support type postscript fonts yes under either solaris or i m not sure which or not yet in other words if you have framemaker there is a utility to import them i m told the fonts supplied with openwindows are fully hinted though and comparing them to the microsoft windows and apple truetype fonts is interesting the f font format is described in a publication from the sun openfonts group listed in the bibliography below documentation on the unbundled version of typescaler is also available from sun openfonts you can buy f fonts from sunpics monotype linotype urw and probably other major foundries sunpics newsprint software supports type fonts improving font rendering time although the sun type renderer typescaler is pretty fast it s not as fast as loading a bitmap you can pre generate bitmap fonts for sizes that you use a lot and you can also alter and access the font cache parameters if you have a lot of memory you might want to increase the font cache size psh i welcome to x news version psh will say this at you currentfontmem type this line and here s whai my server was using kbytes setfontmem just to check currentfontmem see pp ff of the news programmer s guide you need to say psh i so that the postscript packages are loaded see the psh man page making bitmap fonts for faster startup mkdir home myfonts cd home myfonts makeafb m openwinhome lib fonts bembo f b creating bembo afb convertfont b bembo afb bembo afb bembo fb chars parameter greater than number of characters supplied ls bembo afb bembo fb synonyms list bldfamily bembo bembo ff encoding latin cat compat list no such file or directory xset fp pwd xset fp rehash if you want the server to see your new font directory every time add this directory to your fontpath environment variable in one of your start up files e g login or profile converting between font formats convertfont etc you can also use folio fonts with an x server by converting them to a bitmap x bdf format first your licence forbids you from using the fonts on another machine and unless you have newsprint you shouldn t use them for printing having said all that you can use makeafb and convertfont to generate bdf files that you can compile with bdftosnf or bdftopcf use mftobdf from the seetex distribution to convert tex pk fonts to x bdf format which you can then use with either x or oenwindows you can also use der mouse s getbdf to get bdf fonts from a running x display server ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu x getbdf xview olit fonts at dpi there aren t any more precisely the various text fonts such as lucida typewriter sans are available at dpi and in fact are scalable under openwindows the glyph fonts are bitmaps and don t scale very well subject trouble shooting strange error messages no manual entry for cm lookup if man doesn t seem to find openwindows commands even though you are running openwindows try setting the manpath environment variable manpath openwinhome share man usr man export manpath or setenv manpath openwinhome share man usr man for csh users openwinhome should be usr openwin on most systems window window creation failed to get new fd window base frame not passed parent window in environment cannot create base frame process aborted these messages all come from sunview programs sunview was an earlier windowing system for suns and was not networked some of the sunview programs are still around in usr bin and have names that are the same as their openwindows counterparts you almost certainly want to run the programs in openwinhome instead set your path so that openwinhome bin and openwin bin xview for openwindows come before bin or usr bin they re the same or you ll get the sunview versions of mailtool cmdtool shelltool etc memory fault core dumped if you get this from the binder or if binder vanishes suddenly get the following patches binder cetables tooltalk trouble compiling xt xmu or olit programs get wmshellwidgetclass if you are using openwindows x r based xt contact your local sun office and request the following patches x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu if you can t install the patch a workaround is to add u get wmshellwidgetclass u get applicationshellwidgetclass on the link ld or cc o line an alternative is to add assert nodefinitions to cflags in your makefile or even in imake tmpl subject trouble shooting it won t let me type when i try to type into some programs i just get beeps or nothing happens it is a good idea to include at least openwindows focuslenience true input true in your xdefaults file as these allow non icccm compliant programs to receive input even if they forget to ask for it see the next item for editing xdefaults subject trouble shooting cut and paste not working i can t paste from xterm to xview including sun deskset programs under openwindows you need to add the following either to your home xdefaults file or to openwinhome lib app defaults xterm instead xterm vt translations override key l select set clipboard n key l insert selection clipboard you must not move the mouse between ending the selection and pressing l the paste key under openwindows this is already in the app defaults file so if it isn t working check that xfilesearchpath is set to usr openwin lib t n s and if it isn t either set it or copy merge the above lines from openwinhome lib app defaults xterm into usr lib x app defaults xterm see also environment variables this version automatically puts each xterm selection onto the clipboard xterm vt translations override n ctrl meta btn up insert selection primary cut buffer n ctrl meta btnup select end primary cut buffer clipboard n keypress l insert selection clipboard note be sure that the n is at the very end of the line there must be no following spaces and any or signs showing that this faq file was altered must also be removed if you are using x r you may find that adding the lines key l start extend select end primary clipboard cut buffer n keyrelease l kill selection n before the keypress l line will make l cut work as a cut key if you alter home xdefaults instead you must use what x calls a more specific resource name xterm vt translations will do i can t paste from xview including sun deskset programs to xterm if you don t have the sun l keys on the left of your keyboard you can use meta x meta c and meta v for cut coy and paste respectively you can change the keys by adding the following two lines to your xdefaults file edited as you wish the values shown here are the defaults openwindows keyboardcommand copy c meta l openwindows keyboardcommand paste v meta l lists of resources are in the manual page for xview and also in the thinnish blue book companion to volume xview reference manual from o reilly and also in the olwm and olvwm manual pages i always get the same piece of text when i press paste l meta v remove the file tmp textsw shelf and see if that helps see also the next item cut copy and paste don t work at all openwindows only oh dear use ps xuaww grep xv to check that sv xv sel svc is running and that either you or root started it depending on whether you started openwindows with openwin or by logging in through xdm if not start it if it dies check that there is no tmp sv xv sel svc before restarting it you may need to be root to remove it or you can reboot your workstation check that there is space in tmp use df tmp and also see if there are a lot of files there with names like tmp tty txt a if there are several hundred of them cut and paste may take so long that it times out quit any deskset tools such as mailtool filemgr and cm calendar start a terminal emulator and remove and tmp tty txt and tmp text files that are still there it s simplest to quit openwin and start it again after doing that if cut and paste was broken but if it starts working again you can just carry on note that files in tmp not owned by you might be in use by another worker comrade so don t remove those without checking first subject trouble shooting not authorized to use display if you get error messages that look like xlib connection to refused by server xlib internal error during connection authorization check error can t open display try on the machine running openwindows or x xhost machine where machine is the computer on which you ran the command that failed if you want to let other users run programs on the same machine as you using your display you will have to type the bizarre looking xhost hostname or xhost happyboy if happyboy is the name of your workstation this lets any user on happyboy access your display with openwindows you can also use xauth and the programmer s guide describes how to do this in chapter p this is more secure also check the man page for fbtab to stop other users accessing the framebuffer directly also note that there is a sun patch for openwindows under sunos to fix a serious security problem it is available through your local sun answer center as well as through anonymous ftp from ftp uu net system in sun dist fix patchid filename checksum loadmodule tar z on an x terminal there may be a setup menu that lets you change or disable the list of hosts that can access the display if you start getting this message after you ve been logged in overnight there might be a cron job that s removing the unix sockets in tmp that are used to communicate with the server when display doesn t have a hostname before the or is empty have the system administrator change the cron script to skip sockets subject trouble shooting other common problems i get console error messages on my screen and they don t go away sun or if refresh makes the messages vanish but new ones come along later you need to run xterm c from your xinitrc or start one up in the background and then choose save workspace from the workspace utilities menu better still pick up contool and run that get it from export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory it will monitor the console and open flash its icon or beep when a message appears it s very easy to configure if refresh from the workspace utilities menu doesn t make the messages go away a sun with a cg frame buffer has two screens you can move the mouse off the right hand by default edge of the screen and onto a whole new but monochrome display called see the man page for openwin i have a shell script that checks for this and if there s a dev cgfour does openwin dev dev cgfour dev dev bwtwo if you are running x or openwindows you might need to add this to your xinitrc or other startup file eval svenv display unix env olvwm display unix later releases of olwm and olvwm do this automatically you can also run switcher e to get rid of the messages also see the note about contool above is there an easy way of editing xdefaults use props which appears in the default root menu as properties this starts props a property editor which will re write your xdefaults after removing comments it then applies any changes keep comments by using comment instead of for example comment font palatino italic how do i get the file manager to use emacs instead of textedit set the default editor to sh c exec emacs font lucidasanstypewriter file you can change the font if you prefer a smaller one how do i run openwindows in inverse video this tends not to work under openwindows with opwnwindows there are various ways including using bg and fg options if you re using openwindows on a sun probably the best you can do short of upgrading the workstation to a sparc is to use xterm instead of cmdtool why don t flat check boxes work a known bug may make guide s output dump core if you use these a workaround is to edit the guide output as it s only guide s output that s broken not the actual check box code this applies only to versions of devguide before devguide if you re still using an ancient devguide you should upgrade as soon as possible the new one is fantastic when i leave openwindows my screen goes blank or my mouse cursor stays on the screen try running clear colormap if this helps put it as the last line in the shell script you use to start openwindows e g openwin when i use snapshot the system crashes or the server hangs or something this was a bug related to some systems only the only work round was to use some other screen dump program such as xwd xv or xgrabsc why have some of my function keys stopped working keys f and f changed from sunf and sunf to sunxk f and sunxk f respectively in openwindows applications must be recompiled or you might be able to use xmodmap or the public domain xkeycaps program to change your keyboard layout back again when i type shelltool or cmdtool or textedit i get the sunview version see under trouble shooting strange error messages below see also next item mixing x and openwindows see also next item note that openwindows includes the x r core distribution to patch level but not the contrib directory these notes apply to openwindows although you could also the do same sort of thing with openwindows and x r install the x libraries in usr lib x you can intermix openwindows and x r or x r they re all compatible in this respect put the x binaries in for example usr bin x put usr bin x last in your path so that you get openwindows versions of programs instead of x ones where appropriate although this is a matter of preference in any event put the openwindows bin directory first see the preceding item for more details on that if you have bin or usr bin they re the same directory on sunos earlier in your path than openwinhome bin xview you ll get sunview programs instead of openwindows ones set ld library path so that usr openwin lib is last after the x library directory this doesn t matter with openwindows but with older versions you ll get error messages from x programs if you don t do this the messages are generally harmless see next item although xdm core dumps if this isn t right set openwinhome to the directory containing openwindows if it isn t usr openwin see also environment variables especially xfilesearchpath i get error messages on my screen about ld so libx so not found set ld library path to be usr openwin if you also use x use usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib if you put this in a shell script or your profile use openwinhome usr openwin lib instead of usr openwin this is for bin sh for csh it is different i launch my filemgr and i get ld so map heap error at dev zero your system needs to be patched look in openwinhome lib ospatches and install the patch why doesn t answerbook run for me you must be running openwindows to use answerbook it won t run under x on an x terminal or on anything else because it uses news to draw the postscript text and pictures if you are using openwindows you need to use the openwindows compatible navigator it s called navigator ow on the answerbook cd rom if all answerbook users are using openwindows you can replace navigator wih navigator ow altogether rename the old one first to satisfy your sense of paranoia the navigator ow binary is also on cd ware vol note that the data files are in postscript so you can look at them with a postsript viewer q v why aren t there any fish in realxfishdb a fixed version of realxfishdb is available by ftp from ftp eng auburn edu as pub realxfishdb z why is the properties choice disabled in the window menu it isn t implemented yet many programs do respond to the properties key l though or have a pop up menu with properties on it file completion in the c shell is broken in cmdtool sadly true but use shelltool or xterm instead and it s fine it also works if you run command tool on a remote machine fixed in openwindows shipped with solaris when i run olit programs some of the widgets are red release of olit added mouseless operation action widgets can be selected via the keyboard the currently selected item is highlighted in red the red stain to show that it has the input focus to disable it in most places add this to your home xdefaults file traversalon off textedit traversalon on textfield traversalon on you can change the color using for example inputfocuscolor grey input focuscolor green list inputfocuscolor your background color see the man page resources w at the start of the olit widget set reference manual included in the openwindows programmer documentation meanwhile contact your distributor and ask for patch id the olit cte jumbo patch when i run several programs the colors on the screen all change when i move into a different window colormap flashing this is becasue most hardware can only display a few colors at a time however you can minimise the effect with the following procedure start all the applications with colors that you wish to reserve run cmap compact save to create the owcolors file put the line cmap compact init near the start of your start up file xinitrc exit and then restart the window system cmap compact init will push those colors owcolors to the end of the colormap and reserves them also note that control l locks the colors of the current window and control l unlocks them this is described in the olwm manual page pageiew uses the wrong colors or makes the colormap flash see above this problem was reported by people for some reason running the motif window manager mwm with openwindows try running pageview like this openwinhome bin reservecolors svmono openwinhome bin pageview openwinhome bin reservecolors discard xdm breaks things command tool doesn t like being run without a unix controlling terminal use etc setsid to start your command tools and all will be well sunview applications may need to be run with svenv as in svenv exec usr bin traffic because xdm won t set the necessary environment variables note that the mit xdm starts up the x server as root which is a security hole for openwindows use the openwindows xdm or be aware that your users can access files and start unix processes ass root function keys and stopped working in openwindows the x names keysyms for these keys was changed to sunxk f and sunxk f code which uses them should be recompiled or you might be able to get away with xmodmap e keysym sunxk f sunf subject trouble shooting xview problems this section is here only until an xview faq appears which has been promised but hasn t reached here note that there is also a usenet newsgroup alt toolkits xview although it doesn t sem to have very wide distribution and has triffic of the order of one or two articles per month you should also look at the faq in comp windows x how do i set the font of individual scrolling list items panel list font takes an int row number and an xv opaque font handle panel list fonts take a null terminated list of xv opaque font handles there is no easy way to make an entire list fixed width font you have to make sure that you always specify panel list font when you insert a new row into that list or write a convenience function insert row list row string that hides the nasty bits how do i keep an xview pop up window displayed after a button is pressed in the button callback do xv set button panel notify status xv error null this will keep the window visible you might also need to investigate the menu notify status attribute how do i make an xview button look pressed call panel begin preview and panel cancel preview these are documented in er the xview source openwindows imake doesn t work properly here is greg earle s patch to be applied in openwinhome note that you should edit lib config sun cf afterwards to get osname and osminorversion right minorversion is in sunos for example i have edited the patch a little so any bugs are mine lee sq com bin xmkmf orig wed sep bin xmkmf tue aug elif n openwinhome then args duseinstalled openwinhome lib config else elif n openwinhome then args i openwinhome lib config duseinstalled dxcomm else lib config site def orig wed sep lib config site def tue aug define bindir openwinhome bin define libdir openwinhome lib define incroot openwinhome share include define installnonexecfile file dest install file install c instdatflags file dest define nullparameter note the patch is new but i have not marked each line with a liam subject environment variables environment variables and plausible values to use this list doesn t take into account any local changes that you might have made of course this list is for openwindows differences for openwindows are marked and i ve added some comments for users of x r and x r too display the name of the x windows display to use on the local machine the one actually running x or xnews on some machines for a second monochrome screen machine running unix on other machines you may need to do xhost other machine to let programs on other machines use your display see also under trouble shooting and see the section on xauth in the openwindows version programmer s guide pp ff see also console messages under trouble shooting fontpath where xnews searches for fonts usr openwin lib fonts you can also use xset fp dir to add a directory to the font path but you may have to do xset fp rehash afterwards this is fine under openwindows but many x servers have font problems helppath where xview looks when you press the help key or f usr openwin lib locale usr openwin lib help on sunos or with openwindows omit the first entry which is for sites using a local other than c or usa ld library path where to look to find shared c libraries usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib usr cc arch the usr cc arch lib entry is only needed if you use c programs openwinhome where openwindows lives usr openwin keyboard mouse serial devices to use instead of the console don t set these for normal use dev kbd and dev mouse path where the shell searches for programs to run openwinhome bin openwinhome bin xview usr local bin home bin arch usr ucb usr bin usr bin x usr hosts you will certainly want to change this example there is no openwinhome bin xview in openwindows xfilesearchpath where programs look for app defaults files usr openwin lib t n s this is set automatically by openwin in openwindows you might want to use usr lib x t n s or perhaps both separated with a for example for sh users xfilesearchpath openwinhome lib t n s usr lib x t n s export xfilesearchpath if you use x r you might instead want usr lib x l t n c s usr lib x l t n c s usr lib x t n c s usr lib x l t n s usr lib x l t n s usr lib x t n s openwinhome lib t n s put all this on one line though with no spaces together with the following in lib xinitrc xrdb merge end xrdb customization end xrdb xrdb merge end xrdb ifdef color customization color endif end xrdb you automatically get a color oclock editres bitmap xcalc and xlogo since they use the customization resource appearing as c in the xfilesearchpath see oclock n according to rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh ch subject where can i get it ftp implementations etc xview is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere moolit can be bought from at t in source form openwindows can be obtained from sun or you can get the source from interactive systems inc it is also included in some vendors system v release implementations although that s not always the latest version the current release of openwindows from sun for supported architectures is for the sun series it is frozen at openwindows note that sun includes openwindows with sunos and it is also included as the windowing system for solaris there are said by sun to be over ports of openwindows either available now or in progress unfortunately none of them seem to be available from anywhere contact anthony ovi com for more information subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats the open look tm graphical interface is documented in two books sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface application style guidelines addison wesley and sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface functional specification addison wesley the main documentation for the x window system comes from o reilly associates in about nine or ten volumes the most useful for open look users are volume xlib programming manual volume xlib reference manual volume x window system user s guide an open look edition of volume should appear later this year volume xview programmer s manual dan heller make sure you get the rd edition for xview companion to volume xview reference manual ed thomas van raalte the companion to volume is an expanded version of the attribute summary from the previous edition of the xview programming manual together with other reference information so that in practice you have to buy both books o reilly also have a thinnish orange book on the differences between x r and rx olit programmers will also want the xt books volumes and there is a new big fat green vol updated for x r a journal the x resource may also be of interest o reilly associates morris street suita a sebastopol ca or in the usa and canada only fax email nuts ora com or uunet ora nuts for other distributors mail fax or call some of the o reilly examples are available fro ftp from export lcs mit edu in the contrib oreilly directory the system v release documentation from prentice hall may also include a section on openwindows david miller describes programming with olit in his an open look at unix m t press nabajyoti brkakati gives an excellent introduction to x and to olit programming as well as setting up and using x and openwindows in unix r desktop guide to open look sams isbn you can get the examples from this book as export lcs mit edu contrib naba olguide examples tar z also about using olit and xt in particular the x window system programming and applications with xt open look edition doug young and john pew prentice hall isbn x there are also hp widgets and motif ugh versions of this book the example source code in this book can be obtained by ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib young pew olit z there is an introduction to xview in writing applications for sun systems vol a guide for macintosh r programmers sun microsystems pub addison wesley to learn more about the news and postscript languages see the news book springer verlag sadly a little out of date postscript language reference manual second edition adobe systems inc addison wesley the red book note that openwindows is a level postscript implementation with certain level features such as composite fonts to some degree postscript language tutorial and cookbook adobe systems inc addison wesley the blue book there s at least one book on using solaris i e sunos sun also supplies a large amount of documentation with openwindows although you may have to order it separately here s what i have they are each a little over cm square wider than a paper and vary from about cm to about cm thick they say user s guide or programmer s guide on the front the user manuals have a red stripe on the bottom and the programmer ones have a green stripe openwindows version release manual openwindows version installation and start up guide openwindows version deskset reference guide openwindows version user s guide desktop integration guide also available in bookstores programmer s guide openwindows version reference manual the man pages the news toolkit reference manual news programming guide olit widget set reference manual xview reference manual converting sunview applications f font format specification order separately there are also some other sets of documentation including the typescaler documentation from the openfonts group for example there doesn t seem to be a complete list anywhere tooltalk setup and administration guide sunsoft tooltalk programmer s guide sunsoft there might be documentation about the link manager somewhere too at t includes several large thorny bushes worth of paper with olit sun s answerbook cd rom contains a lot of the above documentation including some of the o reilly books not the xview volume though volume of the o reilly series is about x administration and mentions openwindows although it is primarily aimed at x r several other books are in the works subject getting this file revision history recent changes mail lee sq com to ask for it douglas n arnold dna math psu edu keeps an up to date copy on ftp math psu edu currently in the file ftp pub faq open look the net answers archives and servers may or may not know about this file since they ve just changed hands and this file was previously in one archive but not the other id open look faq v lee exp acknowledgements andrei arkhipov andr elvis sovusa com feb binder patch douglas n arnold dna math psu edu feb various changes ian darwin ian sq com christopher davis ckd eff org paul eggert eggert bi twinsun com feb screenblank on solaris r stewart ellis elliss frith egr msu edu feb assert nodefinitions jeff fleck jefff meaddata com feb the colormap stuff rick heli rick heli eng sun co feb including signature nicholas hounsome nh cbnewsg cb att com feb xt olit cc workaround larry matthias matthias artos larc nasa gov feb news colormap flashing john b melby melby yk fujitsu co jp fai com feb south paws christian sebeke sebeke frodo lfi uni hannover de feb xt jumbo patch kevin w thomas kwthomas nsslsun nssl uoknor edu mar olvwm patches larry w virden lvirden cas org mar various comments and many others you get deleted from this list after a while liam quin manager of contracting softquad inc lee sq com open look ui faq metafont list hexsweeper news game lq text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	list of programs with open look user interface id open look programs faq v lee exp locker lee contents subject applications application builders subject applications graphing tools subject applications utilities subject applications other subject tools terminal emulators subject other commercial applications subject applications toolkit extensions subject openwindows ports subject xview ports subject xview ports subject games free and commercial subject applications application builders commercial devguide contact sunpics lets you use drag and drop to create an open look application with xview olit uit or tnt very easy to use free dirt there might be an olit port of this ui builder commercial exocode contact expert object one of the first third party gui builders to support open look using the xview toolkit it was reviewed in sunexpert magazine in commercial objectbuilder contact parcplace debra frances debra parcplace com uib is a user interface builder which supports building applications that support both open look and motif it generates code for parcplace s oi c toolkit and can make use of user created subclasses note oi can also display an osf motif gui at runtime free wcl uses x resources to specify an xt widget hierarchy and actions to user defined callbacks uses olit xt or motif commercial xvt contact xvt systems lets you write code to a common subset of open look motif microsoft windows the macintosh gui and even terminals using curses you buy an xvt toolkit for each environment subject applications graphing tools free dstool xview based program that plots lorenz attractors and other chaotic things in real time also includes a mathematical expression interpreter ftp macomb tn cornell edu free ace gr graph and analysis program xvgr ftp ftp ccalmr ogi edu xvgr tar z in ccalmr pub acegr handles x y scatterplots lineplots bargraphs fft analysis running averages polynomial fits etc free robot a scientific graph plotting and data analysis tool contact robin corbet corbet astro psu edu description graph plotting in various styles axes data manipulation arithmetic functions smoothing folding sorting fitting to data using gaussians polynomials lorentzians and or user defined functions annotation of graphs log files commands with loops etc colour postscript output ftp astrod astro psu edu in pub astrod ftp files robotx tar z everything ftp files robotmanual ps z just the documentation ftp files robot sun z binary built on a sparcstation requirements robot is xview based user interface portions of code are written in c data manipulation code is written in fortran hence a fortran compiler is also required or the public domain f c package alternatively a sparc binary is available by anonymous ftp subject applications utilities free boss description an open look ui to the casio boss scheduler free props ftp export lcs mit edu pub r untarred contrib lib xview clients props description this is the openwindows properties editor that appears when you choose the properties item from the workspace menu free contool ftp from export lcs mit edu description a special purpose console window that can filter out or take special action on specified console messages written by chuck musciano requirements xview free faces description displays pictures of people who have sent you electronic mail violates the data protection act in the u k subject applications other commercial bimail contact bim pge sunbim be x address c be a rtt p bim o horizon s geurts g patrick notes bimail is a complete x electronic mail system it consists in a user interface which gives access to all x services with a consistent look and feel a message transfer agent mta system which can transfer messages over x tp and tcp ip using rfc a gateway to smtp mail is also available free calentool description a day week month year at a glance calendar and almanac ftp export lcs mit edu contrib calentool xp tar z contact bill randle tektronix inc billr saab cna tek com free emacstool description a sunview program that was converted to xview and is included with the gnu emacs distribution free genix contact ian darwin ian sq com a genealogy program written in c using guide incomplete as of jan inquire for details free workman audio cd player for x sun ultrix requirements xview libraries ftp ultrix binary ftp hyperion com in workman ftp ftp ucsc edu in incoming database of over cds contact koreth hyperion com steven grimm free pan postit notes free wais ftp sunsite unc edu description networked distributed text retrieval system olit based front end notes you might to need to add lce to the makefile free xrolo rolodex card index address book free xv display description an xview program for showing a text file like more commercial searchit contact sunsoft or sunexpress us uk germany france platforms sparc solaris x price notes searchit is a full text search and retrieval application designed to improve individual and group productivity it makes an index to files and can later retrieve documents by words or phrases ranking the results in relevance order commercial showme contact sunsoft notes conferencing software that lets multiple connected users share the same drawing screen with bitmap capture and moveable pointer requirements you can only run one showme per computer so you have to have a cpu per conference member free xvman man pages viewer free xvtdl todo list manager ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xvtdl tar z contrib xvtdl readme requirements xview libraries contact mike jipping jipping cs hope edu bitnet jipping hope organisation hope college department of computer science free name finder contact richard elling eng auburn edu ftp ftp eng auburn edu pub name finder tar z patches pub name finder compile patch requirements openwindows c or greater to recompile description name finder was orginally designed as a replacement for the name finder missing from the openwindows version mailtool it has since grown into a tool for several electronic mail related activities including interaction with local listserv robots for handling mail lists requesting full name style mail aliases from your local postmaster and providing mailbox status information ala finger name finder is written in c cfront using gxv version if you don t have access to a c compiler a precompiled sparc executable is included in the distribution free bibcard interface for bibtex databases requirements xview ftp iamsun unibe ch in x bibcard tar z ftp includes source and sparc binary for sunos version description gui for mantaining bibliography databases which can be used with latex tex and framemaker free moxftp interface to ftp ftp ftp chpc utexas edu as file packages x xftp tar z contact bill jones jones chpc utexas edu requirements x olit or motif or athena widgets notes formerly called xftp compiles under at least ultrix aix aix convex os sunos unicos and irix uses olit bug can also use osf motif and athena widgets free olvwm open look virtual window manager contact scott oaks ftp export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory patches there are two patches requirements xview description olvwm is a version of olwm that manages a virtual desktop hence the v in its name it shows a little map on the screen with the currently displayed area represented by a little rectangle you can move around by dragging the rectangle or with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one to the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm free ftptool open look front end to ftp requirements xview ftp export lcs mit edu in contrib free hyperlook contact the turing institute requirements openwindows running the xnews server not x hypertext package written entirely in news runtime from turing com in pub or ftp uu net graphics news hyperlook runtime tar z maestro ftp from sioux stanford edu multimedia authoring tools including support for sound text video xvnews ftp from export lcs mit edu an xview based newsreader for netnews free xvttool ftp cs dal ca pub comp archives ftp nuri inria fr x contrib clients ftp lth se pub netnews alt sources volume dec xvttool z ftp src doc ic ac uk usenet comp archives x terminal xvttool description a vt emulator in both xview and sunview versions includes buttons for the pf keys etc subject postscript and graphics viewers commercial pageview postscript previewer contact included in openwindows as part of deskset notes type support only in openwindows under solaris antialiasing support with colour openwindows try pageview aa dpi note that pageview uses the x news server to interpret the postscript and thus won t run on an x terminal or other non openwindows server it s not enough to be runing an open look ui tm window manager such as olwm commercial xps postscript program editor and previewer contact included with openwindows under demo and share src notes only runs under openwindows commercial psh contact included with openwindows simple interface to news and the openwindows server free ralpage ftp export lcs mit edu in contrib clients notes crispin goswell s postscript interpreter much hacked not open look compliant no type font support there are other versions of this called xps postscript etc don t confuse this xps with the one mentioned above free ghostscript from the free software foundation supports type fonts not open look based subject tools terminal emulators free cmdtool shelltool requirements xview toolkit notes these are included in the xview source distribution from export lcs mit edu in contrib they re also included with sun s openwindows commercial switchterm contact micro resources inc columnbus ohio usa notes a version of xterm with an open look ui print interface ansi x colour escape sequences etc commercial isoterm contact the bristol group ltd and germany requirements openwindows other products isotex isofax power base notes an olit based terminal emulator i couldn t get the demo version to give me a shell prompt although it did look like it was a pretty fll vt emulation with double height characters colour fonts grahics and so forth with the union flag the british flag as their logo i somehow expected an english address perhaps in bristol subject other commercial applications contact sunsoft or sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages of applications you can also get the free cdware cd rom which contains demo versions of several popular open look ui applications once you ve done this you can often simply contact the vendor concerned to have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation product name author editor sgml based text editor word processor company name softquad inc mail sq com description word processor or text editor that manipulates iso sgml documents interfaces open look ui xview osf motif mac ms windows subject applications toolkit extensions product name xtra xwidgets company name graphical software technology e mail info gst com phone fax keywords graphics library widgets spreadsheet help interfaces open look motif platforms sparc hp s ibm rs interactive requirements x xt xol or xm libraries and headers x price single user network source support price calls source available yes description the xtra xwidget library contains a set of widgets that are subclassed from and compatible with either olit or motif widgets the library includes widgets that implement the following spreadsheet bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart xy plot hypertext hypertext based help system and data entry form widgets have been successfully integrated with both teleuse from telesoft and builder xcessory from ics a free demo is available for any of the supported platforms product name xrt graph company name kl group e mail sun com suncan klg info info klg com phone description xrt graph is a graph object that extends the xview toolkit there are also xt versions for olit and motif xrt graph supports line plots scatter plots strip charts bar charts stacking bar charts pie charts and filled area charts singly and in combination it supports real time updates true postscript output and intelligent user feedback it comes with builder a graph prototyping tool which supports code resource file generation a free demo vmgraph is available there are free integration kits for uim x teleuse and builder xcessory others in progress availability xrt graph for xview and olit are only available on sparc xrt graph for motif is available on a dozen or so platforms free slingshot xview extension slingshot provides rectangles like the xt intrinsics rectobj gadget drag and drop support images icons and text trees lines arrows get it by ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib slingshot tar z remember to use binary mode in ftp you can also get it by sending mail to archive server gazooch eng sun com with the body of each message containing a line like send sspkg part part going up to send sspkg part part send sspkg docpart docpart docpart send sspkg docpart docpart docpart you can ask for one file at a time to reduce the impact on intermediate mail sites ask the mail server for help with the subject line help a human can be reached at archive manager gazooch eng sun com add a line in the message path your mail address if you think the normal automatic reply address might not work ada bindings for xview sun ada includes among other things an ada source code generator for devguide it uses the verdix xview ada bindings it does not yet july support gfm the guide file manager c bindings for xview qualix s xv uit subject openwindows ports sun sparc sunos sun sparc solaris actually others none so far there are said by sun to be two or three ports of openwindows either available now or in progress contact anthony flynn at open vistas international anthony ovi com for more information originally they said but perhaps they meant openwindows source is available commercially it costs about for the server including typescaler and the toolkits deskset filemgr etc is another tooltalk is or so subject xview ports what xview system apple a ux porter lmj uncompaghre jax org lou jones ftp encyclo jax org notes the libraries and utilities olwm cmdtool etc are available for anonymous ftp from encyclo jax org i used gcc to compile the sources if there is enough interest i can make the diffs available system concurrent based porter sinan mtesol boeing com sinan karasu system decstation ultrix porter dscott ittc wec com dave scott ftp media lab media mit edu ftp xview ultrix mips tar z notes let me stress that this is not fully tested but seems to work pretty well please let me know about any problems you find problems i already know about large buttons under any non sun x server non xnews i e any standard mit x r server have the bottom of the button chopped off we re working on this one xview is also available on the dec freeware cd from decus actually this seems not to be dave scott s port please accept my apologies for listing this incorrectly a correct entry will appear as soon as i get the necessary information lee system hp porter ftp tesla ucd ie pub notes includes hp build hp xview patch file xvgr system hp series porter tjc ecs soton ac uk tim chown system hp xx series ftp ftp csc liv ac uk hpux x xview part tar z system intel sysvr i porter dawes physics su oz au david dawes ftp ftp physics su oz au suphys physics su oz au esix x r hierarchy notes his patches were for esix but should work on dell isc and intel svr with no worries the files are readme xview and xview diff z see also linux system ibm rs porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell compiler bsdcc ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview rs k unofficial patch z notes there is still a problem with tty support for the rs for instance the cmdtool will not work still most everything else works for those of you who have already installed my previous patch i have put a separate patch for just the shared library problem this file is contrib xview fixes xview rs k xview lib patch z system linux porter kenneth osterberg lmfken lmf ericsson se icompiler gcc libc ftp tsx mit edu pub linux binaries usr bin x xview l ftp sunsite unc edu notes inlcudes olvwm uit system sgi porter rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh ch ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview sgi unofficial patch tar z notes system solbourne series porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell subject xview ports in general there is no point in using xview if you have xview available it s a good idea to look for an xview port first moving from xview to xview is usually simply a matter of recompiling unless you ve done dirty tricks or used undocumented calls system stellar gs stardent and stardent porter arvai scripps edu andy arvai ftp perutz scripps edu in the pub xview directory notes stardent is now kubota pacific kpc system harris nighthawk system cx ux unix porter andy harris nl andy warner status commercial system sgi iris porter ftp wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics sgi stuff xview xview system vax vms porter tgv inc notes steven fenger svfenge afterlife ncsc mil wrote a company called tgv makes a product called xview for vms they made xview libraries i haven t seen them advertising xview libraries yet subject games free and commercial commercial aviator flight simulator for gx equipped sparcstations contact artificial horizons inc aviator interest ahi com requirements openwindows or sunos or later sparc gx or gxplus free hexsweeper minesweeper game based on hexagons contact lee sq com include hexsweeper in subject requirements openwindows or later toolkit tnt free free sidtool pacman game ftp ftp uu net usenet comp sources games volume sidtool an open look pacman tm surrogate that appears as a debugger the bad guys are code bugs that move around your screen you the good guy chase them with a monitor that eats bugs commercial simcity contact dux software los altos ca price us requirements openwindows uses news doesn t run on a with cg free spider included in openwindows under demo and share src a patience style card game with two packs of cards and excellent bitmap cards i suggest recompiling to allow the cards to have rounded edges free xblackjack ftp from export lcs mi edu as contrib xblackjack tar z a motif olit based tool constructed to get you ready for the casino liam quin manager of contracting softquad inc lee sq com open look ui faq metafont list hexsweeper news game lq text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	comp windows x getting more performance out of x faq archive name x faq speedups last modified how to maximize the performance of x monthly posting compiled by art mulder art cs ualberta ca more ram faster cpu s more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation well more hardware isn t always an option and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity this faq list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance is a highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features in order to come to a personal decision therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts this document is specifically concerned with x there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation however they are outside the scope of this document people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance might want to look at the o reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning by mike loukides imho it contains a well written comprehensive treatment of system performance i m unaware of any other similar books ed table of contents introduction administrivia what about the other x faq window managers the x server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources of information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document is posted each month on or around the th to the usenet news groups comp windows x news answers and comp answers if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may be outdated if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and or your site does not receive them and or this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from an archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites to find out more about them and how to access them please see the introduction to the news answers newsgroup posting in news answers the main faq archive is at rtfm mit edu this document can be found there in pub usenet news answers x faq speedups if you do not have access to anonymous ftp you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail server rtfm mit edu with the command send usenet news answers x faq speedups in the message body what about the other x faq david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net maintains the informative and well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document its focus is on general x information while this faq concentrates on performance the comp windows x faq does address the issue of speed but only with regards to the x server the gist of that topic seems to be use x r it is faster than r please see the x faq for complete details window managers there are a lot of window managers out there with lots of different features and abilities the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features at this point most respondents have agreed upon twm as the best candidate for a speedy window manager a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger is turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com i ve found that a good font for tiling is x aka misc fixed medium r normal c iso it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun x screen and still get two column terminal windows side by side on the display with no overlap other font suggestions will be accepted the x server which server make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware if you have a monochrome monitor use a monochrome x server on my monochrome sun i haven t noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging thanks to jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se how your server was compiled can also make a difference jeff law law schirf cs utah edu advises us that on a sun system x should be compiled with gcc version or with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect to get very large speedups in the server by not using the bundled sunos compiler i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high quality commercial compilers on the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged eg via a call to plock does this help performance at all i ve had one inquiry on this topic and a few pointers to the plock function call but no hard evidence from someone who s tried it i am not in a position to give it a try thanks to eric c claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx db sunbim be juan d martin juando cnm us es starting your server joe english joe trystero art com if you start up a lot of clients in your xsession or whatever sleep for a second or two after launching each one after i changed my xclients script to do this logging in actually took less time we have a heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but i have confirmed that it works warner losh imp solbourne com provided me with a good explanation of why this works which i have summarized here when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts this process touches a large number of pages any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu and more importantly memory if you put a sleep in there you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up similarly there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and so forth all this activity is typically memory intensive once this initialization is done the process has reached a steady state the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation s limited resources this is most definitely a your mileage may vary situation as there are so many variables to be considered available ram local swap space load average number of users on your system which clients you are starting etc currently in my xinitrc i have a situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve even tried sleep exec start x clients script and then in start x clients script i had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my xinitrc and had settled down into a steady state before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched all of these yielded fairly comparable results and so i just stuck with my current setup for its simplicity you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use you ll get speed increases in load up time one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients or at least all your heavily used clients to use only those few fonts client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu oz au joe english joe trystero art com eg my main xterm font is x so i also have twm set up to use x in all it s menus and icons etc twm s default font is x since i don t normally use x i ve eliminated one font from my server oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local to the workstation rather than loading them over nfs if you will make extensive use of r scalable fonts use a font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves on server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion in your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults in your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n the comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work ed so when xterm launches it loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them in app defaults xdvi and so on and so forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check in your system app defaults directory often usr x r lib x app defaults to find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this is all documented in the xt specification pg thanks to kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel ee cornell edu kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier to maintain more usable fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource manager property as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since it doesn t have to load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them it also has drawbacks the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up this doesn t seem to make that much of a performance difference and you might consider this a huge boon to usability if you are modifying an application s resource database you just need to re run the application without having to xrdb again xrdb will by default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs they will not watch out for this i had c style comments in my xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources xt did not provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files it simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss of preprocessing which can be very handy e g ifdef color is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in xdefaults when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov a possible compromise suggestion that i have and am planning on trying is to put resources for all my heavily used clients eg xterm into my xdefaults file and to use the separate resources files method for clients that i seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server in that situation rather than setting your display environment variable to hostname where hostname is the name of your workstation you should set your display variable to unix or by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests thanks to patrick j horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section of the x man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name i don t think it s stock mit but at least data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn t set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent me an xlib patch to change stock r to use local communication even if display is not properly set i don t want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non mit patches and so have elected not to include it here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves in the meantime if you want to try it yourself email jody ed clients if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running think also about the kind of programs you are running for example is there a smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately i haven t really noticed that programs advertise how large they are so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients eg xclock xterm xbiff are welcome ed i ve received some contradictory advice from people on the subject of x client programs some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based since xt xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries in this case using a non xt for example client program may actually increase the amount of ram consumed the upshot of all this seems to be don t mix toolkits that is try and use just athena clients or just xview clients or just motif clients etc if you use more than one then you re dragging in more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment thanks to rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs a better clock for x xcuckoo suggested by duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk available on export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mclock shar non xt based extensively configurable it can be made to look very much like mit oclock or mostly like xclock purely by changing resources of course the ultimate clock one that consumes no resources and takes up no screen real estate is the one that hangs on your wall a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope ye who enter here this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution ugly maybe but at my site it s still the most used i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many if not most sites laziness isn t there a better terminal emulator available see below if you must use xterm you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk xvt suggested by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk available export lcs mit edu in contrib xvt tar z if you don t need all the esoteric features of xterm then get hold of xvt it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog this was written as a partial clone of xterm you don t have to rename your resources as xvt pretends to be xterm in it s current version you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm i ve heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature but i ve not found any yet update march i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time dd if etc termcap bs and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements we don t have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm s paging requirements are not that major as an experiment he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but it made little difference since if you never use it it never gets brought into memory so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm in summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary if you can provide some hard data i d like to see it specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed of each mterm suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax i also have my own terminal emulator its major lack is scrollback but some people like it anyway tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes particularly the initial one in the field examining the what was going on with xscope i found it it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non zero and the focus is on a text field widget or even just a text widget the i beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets the widget code is making a request to the server copyarea the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to it is not noticeable on a mhz sparc but it does make a little difference on a slower system this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don t use large bitmaps gif s etc as root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows or redraw etc these take up ram and cpu power i work on a sun sparc and i m conscious of performance issues i can t comprehend it when i see people with a mb sun running xphoon as their root window i ll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation if you re anything like me you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and so rarely see the root window anyway thanks to qiang alex zhao azhao cs arizona edu for reminding me of this one ed a quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse i use xset m in my xinitrc file which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want to slow down your mouse tracking for fine work to cover my options i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager e g for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings f title very fast xset m normal fast xset m system default un accelerated xset m default glacial xset m programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com to speed up applications that you re developing there are tons of things you can do some that stick out for motif programs don t set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists et al use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest level manager widget again stick to as few fonts as possible better yet don t use motif at all it s an absolute pig don t create and destroy widgets on the fly try to reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use a line width of in gcs on some servers this makes a huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia ac be just a small remark i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but i didn t find the time yet i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation on this from anyone ed andre beck andre beck irs inf tu dresden de unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane as fastest blit routines but they forget to reset graphics exposures in the gc used for the blits this will cause a noexpose event every blit that in most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it s event loop again and again thousands of xchangegc requests this gfx context switching is also seen in most handcoded x apps where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again xt uses a definitely better mechanism by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection by moving it toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first david b lewis by day dbl osf org by night david craft uunet uu net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs on the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server i m not in a situation where i can easily try this but i have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion this helps a lot on my poor little ss with only mb it was essential when i only had mb casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the x server and the client are competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine not really a major problem except that the x client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy h panton thp westhawk uucp firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu s are mostly idle x s cpu usage is bursty so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive at the same time is small if they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor is that context switches are expensive using cpu s halves them you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network typically k vs k for a pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources of information volume in o reilly s x window system series x window system administrator s guide is a book all x administrator s should read adrian nye adrian ora com a lot more tips on performance are in the paper improving x application performance by chris d peterson and sharon chang in issue of the x resource an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition conference proceedings this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers author notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder art cs ualberta ca suggestions corrections or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak s too are also welcome currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions if you do not want to be credited please tell me speedup x faq is copyright c by arthur e mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don t try to make money off it or pretend that you wrote it art mulder art cs ualberta ca do not be conformed to this world department of computing science but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta edmonton canada of your mind romans
comp.windows.x	re resource widget toolkit required for x windows applications in article sijn mi werple apana org au jamie zikzak jamie scuglia writes does anyone know of any public domain toolkits for creating x windows applications i have used the xt toolkit but i would like to create pop up windows dialog boxes etc using some sort of drawing editor instead of trying to specify what i want sizes positions etc within actual source code basically i am looking for something similar to borland s whitewater resource toolkit for ms windows expect i need one for x windows instead any help would be much appreciated i recently found an excellent source for x windows programs i ve seen quite a few x windows toolkits up there the place is export lcs mit edu go to the contrib directory its full of x windows programs hope this helps
comp.windows.x	installing xdbx v on sgi did anyone install xdbx v on sgi workstation thanks for your answer gildas perrot gildas perrot associe de recherche ecole polytechnique institut de genie biomedical c p succ a e mail perrot grbb polymtl ca montreal h c a canada tel fax
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in c tgoj j inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix if you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this is an x window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but it s broken on ow it does not handle multiple pages well if you don t have the proper postscript commands it will draw the entire document on the same page instead of pausing after each page i haven t tried ow yet though v v v v v v v gordon t sasamori hc csic mcu design email gordons ai sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	re xfig pl on hp ux in article sp c t elroy jpl nasa gov urban sideshow michael p urban writes i have compiled xfig patchlevel with hp s x r from hp ux augmented by the athena and mu libraries from an x r distribution from iworks ecn uiowa edu it compiles nicely although for one file the preprocessor macro definition table size needed to be increased but when executed nothing happens at all except for ever growing memory requirements eventually climaxing in a core dump the binary of the identical program compiled on with x r has no problems other programs like xtpanel compile link and run just fine with the same libraries does this sound familiar or am i going to have to figure this one out on my own please see the post i made yesterday may which fixes the problem this was posted to comp windows x apps brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory i don t speak for lbl they don t pay me enough for that
comp.windows.x	x r on aix using cc i have gotten x r pl to compile on aix using cc but the server will not run it simplys starts and a couple seconds later exits no error are displayed my defines for compile are dsysv daixv dsysv wait dmalloc returns null could somewhere share some light or maybe the ibm cf file thanks malcolm c strickland martin marietta missile systems chuck strickland orl mmc com mail point phone pobox fax orlando florida
comp.windows.x	uimx a motif application generator i am looking of information regarding uimx i believe this is an application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given me a contact i need to get hold of the programmers guide or something like it paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone
comp.windows.x	some rookie questions im new to xlib programming im having a problem i hope someone here can help me with i create a window and i want it to have some background color say red and draw an oval in it further when i resize the window i want to be able to redraw the image so that is fills the new window whether it is larger or smaller im using aixwindows on an rs my problem is this when i resize the window only the original part of the window that was part of the window creation gets drawn into everything else is a grey the oval tries to redraw itself but gets clipped i can see that it would be the right size if i could see all of it but it only shows up in the region that was the original size of the window when created for example i start out the window at x in width and height if i resize it to x the only part that has any color drawn into it is is from the origin out to x the rest is grey further the oval only shows up in that x area what am i doing wrong how can i get a window to resize and redraw a re scaled image in it to take up the full size of the window second question could someone tell me what xaw and xmu are thanks chris
comp.windows.x	o reilly x adobe p script sun openlook books cheap i have some brand new copies of the following books for sale some are down rev don t know which or by how much look to of pages copyright date etc for clues postscript language reference manual adobe sys inc addison wesley copyr printed pages postscript language tutorial and cookbook as above pages i ll sell the above two books as a set for postage paid w in us openlook gui functional specification sun micro addison w copyr pages openlook gui application style guidelines pages i ll sell the above two books as a set for ppd w in us o reilly associates definitive guides to the x window system copyr for version revised and updated for release vol x protocol reference manual pages vol xlib programming manual pages vol xlib reference manual pages vol xview programming manual pages i ll sell the above four books as a set for ppd w in us due to the high hassle ratio i am asking for pre payment by check i ll be queing cashing packing and shipping so be prepared to wait weeks for your books to show up if you d like to pick them up i live in san francisco same prices though e mail me if you are interested thanks cornhead
comp.windows.x	printing xbm files hi does anyone know of a direct way to print an image of an xbm file please reply directly and i ll post a summary any opinion presented here is my own and does not reflect the policy of my employer nasa or the ames research center roger smith sterling software at nasa ames research center rsmith proteus arc nasa gov if change is inevitable predictable beneficial doesn t logic demand that you be a part of it one man cannot summon the future but one man can change the present kirk and the alternate spock mirror mirror stardate unknown
comp.windows.x	windows mfc motif tools sought i am looking for info on products that can take windows source on a unix box such as sparc and produce a motif executable another requirement is that mfc should be supported i already know of wind u by bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin by mainsoft are there any others i will post a summary if it s wanted daniel dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith autodesk sausalito california x disclaimer accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	re scientific graphing looking for run time library in may serval net wsu edu d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes in article c iem xi hawnews watson ibm com artg watson ibm com art goldberg writes x gurus i am looking for a scientific graphing run time x library i want my code to open a window and plot a graph in the window the library should manage plotting scaling of axes labeling etc can someone recommend a library to do this please respond via e mail i would also be interested in this information check into the vopl and vogle libraries i beleive that i still have them available on ftp c mols siu edu but i m not sure i haven t seen any new announcements for the software but i m sure it s still around i have used it to do real time data display and analysis as well as just for producing graphs after the fact it works well and supports numerous graphics output formats including x i tried it and liked it you may as well dan ellison network spec computing affairs siu c southern illinois university carbondale il fax phone
comp.windows.x	help wanted display stereo images with a gt accelerator hi friends our sparc workstation is now equippied with a gt accelerator we want to use it to display stereo images the accelerator has double buffers how can we access the buffers and switch between them with which functions can we do that with functions from xgl phigs xlib or xlib extension your help will be highly appreciated yonglong xu uni of hannover
comp.windows.x	scaling fonts in x x motif gurus how do you handling scaling of x text while performing zooming operations on figures is restricting user to select scalable fonts too restrictive and a absolute no no any books that have discussion on this topic should have really taken more of those computer graphics courses but now its too late i will summarize response thanks in advance subodh smn netcom com
comp.windows.x	re remote x across tcpip decnet does anyone know if the following is possible and if so how do i go about doing it i want to be able to display remote x applications on a vaxstation off of an internet node here is where the problem comes up the vaxstation isn t connected directly to the internet but is connected via decnet to a node that does have a connection to the internet does anyone know if it is possible to get the display to use tcpip from the remote internet node down to my local internet node and then send it via decnet down to the vaxstation for the machine that is connected to the internet what is it running if it is running vms then if you obtain multinet for it multinet comes with a tcp ip to decnet gateway for x patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	looking for x windows on a pc hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if anyone can e mail me any recommended packages horror stories etc i would be greatful thanks in advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england
comp.windows.x	xrastool part well thanks largely to subscribers of this group here s xrastool the animation package i started just over weeks ago a number of the solutions provided through discussions here have been incorporated in the code so have a look the full blurb has been posted to comp windows x announce this post is in two parts to unpack the source code extract the articles into file and file for example use a text editor to remove leading and trailing text at the cut here markers including the markers themselves next type cat file file file then uudecode file and zcat xrastool tar z tar xvf read the readme file for instructions on how to proceed from there enjoy derek p s the source is also available for anon ftp from export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory if there is enough demand a static binary will be provided for those without the xview libraries or include files derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	x and motif config file for hp ux hello everybody out there i m trying to compile x r pl and motif on a hp running hp ux but it seems to be not very succesful because i have only hp cf config files for hp ux i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won t run i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq but i cannot fix it the xkeysymdb file is at the right location and it works fine under sunos probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong config file please help me thanx in advance markus markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de rechnerbetreuung phone warburger str w paderborn germany markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de warburger str phone w paderborn germany
comp.windows.x	public domain or low price case for rs we are looking for a public domain or low price case running on aix and or solaris and or sun os for x motif and or x openlook i m not a regular follower of these groups so i would prefer an answer to this e mail thanks in advance regards osvaldo osvaldo gervasi centro di calcolo universita degli studi di perugia piazza universita i perugia
comp.windows.x	painting with increasing resolution some people working a few cubes over have come up with this need and it seems that someone out there just might have done it already and can point me to some tools that would help what they d like to do is given a window that is taking a long time to draw because either the data is arriving over a slow link or the display is across a slow link they would like to first paint a low resolution version of the picture and then repaint it in higher resolution thus the picture might first be generated in resolution with each x square of pixels being filled in with a single color next each x square would be replaced by x squares finally the x version would be painted since one of the scenarios is with the window being on the other side of a slow link the low res version obviously wouldn t be transmitted as a bitmap that wouldn t help at all instead there would have to be a process on the far end that receives the low res picture as a small bitmap and blows up each pixel into a square sorta like the magnifier programs do this brings up the question of whether the x server can help that is when a window is opened is there a way to ask that a filter program be run to process the pixels or is the only way to use something like rsh to start up a remote process permission denied and have it open a local window it seems the most likely scenario is a library routine that starts up such a program remotely and then accepts bitmaps compressing each one by some amount and sending them to the remote program to expand but if there is something that x itself can do to help it s be nice to hear about it i looked in several fms but if it s there i obviously don t know the keywords if someone has a nifty tool available that packages it all we might want to get a copy oh yes this is to run on some suns part of the idea is to build demos that can show such things as if this were run across say a bps link this is how fast the pictures would appear then the customer would get a feel for the speed that they need to pay for if the auto industry were like the computer industry a car would now cost would get miles to the gallon and at random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	re x and motif config file for hp ux on may raistlin uni paderborn de markus koch said markus nntp posting host samos uni paderborn de markus hello everybody out there markus i m trying to compile x r pl and motif on a hp running markus hp ux but it seems to be not very succesful because markus i have only hp cf config files for hp ux markus i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings markus the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won t run markus i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq but markus i cannot fix it the xkeysymdb file is at the right location and it markus works fine under sunos markus probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong markus config file markus please help me markus markus thanx in advance markus markus if you installed x lib xt by redefining projectroot you will find that during the install it recompiles one of the files in x lib that does the search for xkeysmdb and embeds the search path for the file based on whatever projectroot was defined to confirm this what happened because i m guessing go to mit lib x and do strings xstrkeysym o egrep xkeysymdb guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	wordwrap hello everybody does anybody know how to implement wordwrap with use of xdrawimagestring the problem is that i don t know how many characters can be drawn in a region have i to calculate character for character the width of the drawn text thank you in advance o o ooo ooo joerg mainzer internet mainzer darmstadt gmd de german nat research center x net mainzer ipsi darmstadt gmd dbp de for information technology voice dolivostrasse fax w darmstadt germany symptom bar moving fault you are being carried out solution find out if you are being taken to another bar if not complain loudly that you are being hi jacked
comp.windows.x	gc plane mask hi xperts where can i get a good example in which xgcvalues plane mask is used or who can explain how is it for and how to use it any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix reason i m looking for this utility is that i ve downloaded these large postscript documents and i d like to know how useful and how long they are before commiting them to the printer and potentially wasting pages of paper and hogging the printer for hour get ghostscript and ghostview ghostview is a postscript previewer that uses ghostscript from the ghostview readme ghostview an x user interface for ghostscript ghostview is full function user interface for ghostscript brief list of features ghostview parses any known version of adobe s document structuring conventions page size is automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user is able to override the values from the comments window size is set to the bounding box for encapsulated postscript figures default page size is letter and can be changed via xresources or application defaults file to a or any other valid size for our european friends scrollbars appear when necessary page orientation is automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user is able to override the values from the comments ability to view at orientations portrait landscape upside down and seascape for those who rotate landscape the other direction ability to preview in any supported visual can preview in gray scale or color on a color monitor ability to mark pages for printing or saving good for people that printed a page document and lost page due to a printer jam can popup zoom windows at printer resolution display dot printer dot the ghostview distribution includes a ghostview widget that people are encouraged to use in other programs ghostview is available via anonymous ftp from prep ai mit edu pub gnu ghostview tar z appenzell cs wisc edu pub ghostview tar z from the ghostscript readme this file describes version of ghostscript an overview of ghostscript ghostscript is the name of a set of software that provides an interpreter for the ghostscript language which very closely resembles the postscript tm language and a set of c procedures the ghostscript library that implement the graphics capabilities that appear as primitive operations in the ghostscript language the ghostscript language interpreter and library are written entirely in c with some assembly language accelerators for ms dos platforms currently ghostscript is known to run on the following platform families ibm pc and compatibles with ega vga supervga or compatible graphics under ms dos or a wide variety of unix systems using x windows version release and including sun sun sun i sun sparcstation generic machines running ix h p and decstation and vax running ultrix sequent symmetry convex c and c tektronix sgi iris indigo sun workstations sun sparc sun i running sunview vax vms with x r gcc and dec c compiler dec c compiler version or later is required get ghostscript from the same ftp site you get ghostview tim williams com night vision electronic sensors directorate dsn amsel rd nv vispd williams fax ft belvoir va e mail williams nvl army mil
comp.windows.x	re fax software in article snoqoinndh darkstar ucsc edu philb cats ucsc edu philip brown writes i d like to know if there is any free fax software for xwindows that i can use i have a sun running mit x r i checked the export lcs mit edu list and there didn t seem to be anything there tea a noxious brew of various oriental leaves containing toxic acids personally i rather like it paraprhased from dr who peter davidson philb cats ucsc edu philb soda berkeley edu check prep ai mit edu it s called fax tar z or something to that effect and is the software for netfax be forewarned that it requires at the moment a fairly costly fax modem with certain capabilities to use it doug hughes system net admin martin marietta aerospace valley forge pa doug happy vf ge com or doug land vf ge com
comp.windows.x	problem with r release ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass i use lxaw lxmu lxext lx lxt not in this order but in a proper order i am wondering if there has to be some changes in my link libraries or should i include some more libraries any help in this matter will be very useful and highly appreciated thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	re accented characters how i ve been able to configure xterm so that i can type in accented characters i m using x r with iso fonts my shell is tcsh with the following definitions setenv lc ctype iso stty pass then i add the following in my xdefaults file xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true xterm vt translations override meta key keymap aigu n meta key keymap grave n meta key keymap circ n meta key keymap ced xterm vt aigukeymap translations shift key e string xe keymap none n key e string xc keymap none n shift key c string xe n key c string xc xterm vt gravekeymap translations shift key e string xe keymap none n key e string xc keymap none n shift key u string xf keymap none n key u string xd keymap none n shift key a string xe keymap none n key a string xc keymap none xterm vt circkeymap translations shift key e string xea keymap none n key e string xca keymap none n shift key u string xfb keymap none n key u string xdb keymap none n shift key i string xee keymap none n key i string xce keymap none n shift key o string xf keymap none n key o string xd keymap none xterm vt cedkeymap translations shift key c string xe keymap none n key c string xc keymap none this makes the meta keys behave as dead keys of course this only works for xterm for emacs my solution is to install the lucid version of gnuemacs and to load the x compose library hope this helps eric eric dujardin eric dujardin inria fr inria rocquencourt projet rodin les bons gongs font bp le chesnay cedex les bonzes amis tel gotlib
comp.windows.x	pd apps for displaying d data sets the subject line says it all really i m looking for a pd application which will just handle the displaying of d data sets images in cross section or any pointers to code which will aid in the development of such a system thanks in advance keith marlow keith marlow sys p g uea norwich phone cyclone bbs on arc beeb norwich norfolk nr tj pc files fidonet echoes charts acorn archiboard central support area radio info archiboard s w voice tried ms dos once but didn t inhale
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work may i humbly suggest desqview x of course i m biased desqview x is a multitasker for dos computers that uses a standard x r server as it s display mechanism dos applications and microsoft windows standard mode are converted on the fly to x protocol allowing you to display them or any r compatable x program from any machine on the net to display to the pc s local display or to any other display on the net free tools are available for devloping x applications for the dvx platform many x programs have been ported between dvx and unix with little or no modifications often you only need to create a new makefile if you re interested in more details you can check out the usenet group comp os msdos desqview or just email me directly at support qdeck com and i d be happy to fill you in quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address as password
comp.windows.x	re type rasterizer where in article sofac m zebedee ingres co uk supp ingres com support account writes in article thomas tornblom may beck nexus comm se thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom writes i m trying to locate the type rasterizer that ibm donated to the x consortium i ve found patches to it but not the original source it s on the r contrib tape mike glendinning ingres uk mikeg ingres co uk yes i found it there thanks everyone thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc check out a program called pc xview i ve used it before and from what i can tell it s exactly what you re looking for last i checked you should be able to find it for about a copy eric schwarte cs colostate edu of course i m certain heisenberg schwarte lamar colostate edu he hadn t a single redeeming vice where does bob barker go when oscar wilde i watch vanna white wasting time is an important part of living
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if you already own all the clone equipment then there are lots of such programs see a current copy of unix world magazine but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone from experience you would be much better off with an xterminal if this is a new install the performance will be at least four times better in addition it would be much easier to install and use on top of that they will cost about the same price a clone with mb ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp ip for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend a whole lot of i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	twm greyscale as distributed twm thinks everything with three or more colormap cells must be a colour screen here s a patch to have it use the screen s visual class twm c dist wed may twm c wed may scr xorvalue unsigned long scr d depth ifdef oldcode if displaycells dpy scrnum scr monochrome monochrome else scr monochrome color else xvisualinfo template xvisualinfo visualinfo int nitems template visual defaultvisual dpy scrnum template visualid xvisualidfromvisual template visual template screen scrnum visualinfo xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask visualscreenmask template nitems if nitems switch visualinfo class case staticcolor case pseudocolor case truecolor case directcolor scr monochrome color break default scr monochrome monochrome break else void fprintf stderr d visual match es assuming mono n nitems scr monochrome monochrome assume endif setup default colors scr firsttime true george d m ross department of computer science university of edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland eh jz mail gdmr dcs ed ac uk voice fax
comp.windows.x	piping tail f to a widget how oh lord how i ve spent the past week tearing my hair out trying to get the output of a piped tail f to end up in a widget i ve managed to make it work in some ugly ways but either a x blocks on the tail and won t allow user input b the tail f functions like just tail and doesn t follow the expansion of the file c the tail f doesn t die after i ve closed the pipe and destoryed the widget or d pclose blocks forever waiting for tail to die i know this code has to exist anybody have it a general popen case would be perfered but at this point i ll take anything thanks greg knauss greg quotron com llamas dammit llamas
comp.windows.x	error building x r xdm hi there i m trying to build x r mit core distribution on a sparcstation running sunos the only thing i change is the projectroot in site def when the make world process goes to cc o xdm i get the following error ld undefined symbol c a a error code and the process continues to finish does anybody know what s wrong thanx for any info lei shao ls cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.windows.x	twm hey guys i run twm and would like to execute some program before leaving twm in other words i would like to run some program before i do f quit is it possible to make a menu section which would contain these two parts thanks in advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if anyone can e mail me any recommended packages horror stories etc i would be greatful thanks in advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england xoftware from age software has proven good by me runs under ms windows and is relatively stable techsup age com could probably help you out more andy andrew justin caird jobs nuclear engineering student university of michigan ring compton camera project dept of nuclear engineering parallel computing code work andrew caird umich edu acaird umich edu andrew caird um cc umich edu acaird engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	xwd and color anyone able to get xwd to dump anything that is not black white my text is not black all i get is window borders i tried the xy option only because i didn t know what it did still no effect any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	none mail relay hi people i m looking for x servers for dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but i d like to be aware of other choices is there anything on the public domain or shareware and in the commercial area is there anything with aggressive pricing what about incompatibilities window managers any info is welcome thanx in advance c u by e mario valente
comp.windows.x	re postscript viewer icons xbackground in article c rsjf em ccu umanitoba ca roholdr ccu umanitoba ca r ross holder jr writes ever since i started to use xwindows which is to say recently i ve accumulated a few questions about x applications three examples follow it was recently mentioned on comp os linux that there exists a post script viewer i am interested in this and any x editor that is an improvement on xedit which i find annoying try to get axe it s a wonderful x based editor and much simpler to use than emacs what is a overkill of course emacs is no editor but a religion at one point i was the proud owner of an amiga and have since upgraded to a workbench the point and click interface used info files to store the data for icons associated with applications on a given volume i have noticed no such architecture anywhere under linux how does xwindows associate icons with applications can one edit icons or generate new ones for applications somehow if it makes a difference i m running twm don t call going from an amiga to a ibm upgrade the amiga workbench did the job of a desktop manager and there is no really amazing good x desktop manager in the public domain i m currently writing one but it s in very early stage xdtm may be a medium good replacement x associates icons with nothing a number of x window managers associate icons with windows in a way to ease window management but this has nothing to do with icons of a desktop manager application the tool bitmap is there for simple icon drawing i ve noticed some people have somehow discovered a way to display gif or some kind of picture files in the background either replacing or overlapping some the usual grey background employed by xwindows i heard this was done using some application but i don t recall what it was xv root max quit whatever image file o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc long list of known servers markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work here s a listing that i came accross a while ago this question seems to come up often enough that i figured this would be of interest note that the server x appeal for dos is available in demo form on the internet via anonymous ftp this is one way of quickly checking out the feasability of using your system as an x server enjoy pete begin enclosure from mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel j mccoy newsgroups comp windows x news answers subject x servers for dos microsoft windows os macs amigas atari reply to mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel j mccoy organization i net inc summary this is a guide or list of x servers that can be used on nonunix sic networked machines to display x clients running on unix machines archive name xservers nonunix last modified version x servers for dos microsoft windows os macs amigas atari april volume author daniel j mccoy i net inc software technology branch information systems directorate nasa johnson space center post mail nasa mail code pt nasa johnson space center houston texas e mail mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov this is a monthly guide of x servers that can be used on non unix networked machines to display x clients running on unix machines i use the name unix loosely here i know others can run x the sources for this information come from many places the faq for comp windows x blurbs and info packets from the vendors user manuals for the products themselves conversations with sales representatives personal experience comp windows x articles etc please forward any corrections or updates to the above address this file is also available by anonymous ftp at export lcs mit edu in contrib xservers nonunix txt z ftp uwp edu in pub misc xservers nonunix txt msdos archive umich edu in msdos info xservers nonunix txt and msdos info xnonunix zip x servers for dos desqview x ibm x windows micro x dos micro x lite pc decwindows motif v pc x windows pc xsight pc xview sage adapter and x windows display server teemtalk x vista exceed x appeal xinet x station xnth xoftware for dos xoftware for tiga dos x servers microsoft windows desqview x excursion for windows exodus for ms windows hcl exceed w microx multiview x pc xview vista exceed x one x at xoftware xvision x servers os ibm x windows for os x servers macintosh exodus macx x servers amiga unknown x window system version release for the amiga computer x servers atari x tos window server and x tos window server color x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica ca tel fax price latest version cpu sx or higher version available memory mbytes operating system dos or higher dr dos or higher mouse optional ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a or color dgis ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds a graphical d look and feel to desqview gives users a choice of window managers look and feels provides a growth path from character mode dos to industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications up to gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and x clients either locally or remotely provides a simple port of applications from other x systems to desqview x and vice versa gives developers a choice of application appearances based on toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required by developers such as push buttons scrollbars pop up dialogue boxes etc adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos ibm x windows vendor ibm part price latest version cpu memory operating system dos mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x dos vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices unit ea pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades at of original price educational discount of latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ahead v ati everex vp vga genoa paradise c stb em trident cs tseng labs et video ht v vga western digital c zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr etc packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space mbytes mbytes for all fonts mbyte or mbyte needed features x r intelligent installation program tcp ip built in support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x lite vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ahead v ati everex vp vga genoa paradise c stb em trident cs tseng labs et video ht v vga western digital c zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte needed features x r intelligent installation program tcp ip built in clients on screen at time fixed font oriented variable fonts available support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc decwindows motif v vendor dennis giokas pc decwindows development digital equipment corporation porter rd littleton ma price latest version v cpu memory up to mbytes operating system ms dos mouse any pointing device with ms mouse v or later interface graphics ega color and mono mcga vga color and mono enhanced vga x color and mono a x color pseudo color visual ethernet card network software tcp ip and decnet disk space features x release server integrated virtual memory manager standard ibm compatible keyboards and digital s lk session manager client integrated into the server suspend session feature to run dos commands font compiler for adobe bitmap distribution files keysym compiler to customize the keyboard for default keycode to keysym mappings over pre defined keyboard mapping files configuration utility to define hardware environment and user preferences supports decnet and tcp ip available from dec dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc xdivision sw gemini drive beaverton or tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price pc xview for dos for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version pc xview for dos version cpu recommended memory mbyte mbytes recommended operating system dos or higher mouse graphics cga ega vga svga xga tiga a video standard supported with extended memory japanese graphics mode high resolution graphics boards compac dell hp nec spectragraphics squeegee and over other dgis based ethernet card over ethernet communications boards supported network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such as motif and open look off loads the graphics processing of unix hosts hot key to dos access to local peripherals and dos utilities easy and well documented installation procedures pop up control panel motif compliant local window manager ability to run in windows pif window hot key between x and dos no longer have to exit a tsr dpmi compatibility enhanced protocol tracing support xremote protocol dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc x windows vendor intelligent decisions inc weddell dr suite c sunnyvale ca tel fax price latest version cpu memory mbyte more recommended for hi res or lots of pixmaps operating system dos of higher mouse ms compatible mouse graphics vga some svga ethernet card network software ftp software s pc tcp wollongong s win tcp disk space mbytes on hard disk features port of mit x r server shape extension mit magic cookie xdmcp font compiler fonts supplied motif open look decwindows vms and ultrix demonstrated to work with this server at interop last year dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xsight vendor pc xsight locus computing corporation la cienega blvd inglewood ca tel ca uk price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory with kbytes available kbytes extended memory operating system ms pc dos or later mouse or button mouse and driver button mouse recommend graphics ega vga hercules or at t ethernet card excelan exos or t com c western digital wd e micom ni acer multitech network software disk space inch high density or inch diskette drive mbyte features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos sage adapter and x windows display server vendor sigma designs inc landing parkway fremont ca tel fax telex price latest version cpu memory operating system dos or higher or unix system v mouse graphics high end multiscanning or fixed frequency khz monitors ethernet card network software disk space features menu driven installation and configuration program x resolution tiga a ai emulation cga mda hercules vga pass through emulation modes colors displayable simultaneously from a palette of million dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos teemtalk x vendor pericom tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features for ibm clones allows toggling between x and dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover md tel price vista exceed vista exceed plus vista exceed plus a latest version cpu memory kbytes to mbyte for dos server mbytes for vista exceed plus and vista exceed plus a operating system ms dos or pc dos or higher mouse or button ms compatible mouse graphics ega vga or svga color or analog monochrome monitor ethernet card any supported by tcp ip transports listed below network software pc tcp network software for dos by ftp software inc pc nfs by sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos by the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos by the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system by novell excelan open tcp by com corporation hp arpa services by hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns pc by ungermann bass inc bwnfs or telnet package by beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may up to mbytes available for client processing emulates a button mouse with a button mouse full interactive support for x font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos x appeal vendor giovanni novelli xtreme s a s livorno italy fax xappeal xtreme sublink org before xappeal xtreme it after price with quantity discounts off for copies off for copies off for copies additional discount for educational institutions demo copies available through anonymous ftp at garbo uwasa fi pc demo xap exe zip readme and executables pc demo xap fon zip local server fonts pc connect drivers zip packet drivers latest version cpu sx or higher memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system ms dos or later mouse any pointing device with ms mouse compatible driver graphics most svga boards in color mode ahead v b ati chips technologies c genoa ncr c e oak technologies oti paradise wd c trident c tseng labs et et western digital wd c ethernet card any model compatible with packet drivers network software tcp ip included disk space at least mbytes features full x r server implementation including pex and font server support screen painting exceeds xstones in x resolution colors on a without support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor run time resolution switch and panning on a virtual screen emulates a button mouse with a button mouse fast cursor tracking full support for european keyboard layouts no memory limitation through use of virtual memory bit protected mode dos extended application built in tcp ip support using the packet driver for the ethernet board free packet driver collection included interactive configuration utility x display manager control protocol support for hosts running xdm x authorization mit magic cookie shape extension for non rectangular windows font compiler and rgb database utilities x fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such as motif and open look built in rcp rsh server to allow file transfers and the execution of useful dos functions without leaving the x environment dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xinet x station vendor xinetron ca tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features up to clients dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xnth vendor jerry norman nth graphics ltd tel this x server project has been abandoned price cpu memory operating system dos or higher mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip disk space features supports x or x resolution monitors at colors out of m with hardware acceleration for graphics and text operations dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ega vga svga or ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp of higher dec pathworks tcp ip of higher ftp pc tcp of higher novell lan workplace of higher sun pc nfs or higher wollongong pathway access or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys to dos and ms windows passive telnet rsh rexec or xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library in snf format bdf to snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for tiga dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics texas instruments tms based graphics accelerator with tiga or higher whith mbyte dram ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp of higher dec pathworks tcp ip of higher ftp pc tcp of higher novell lan workplace of higher sun pc nfs or higher wollongong pathway access or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys to dos and ms windows passive telnet rsh rexec or xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library in snf format bdf to snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service optimized for tiga graphics accelerators dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica ca tel fax price latest version cpu sx or higher version available memory mbytes recommended operating system pc or ms dos or higher dr dos or higher mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a color dgis ati x c t c x c t c x tseng et x tseng et x genoa x wd pvga a x wd c x wd c x some revisions of headland vega x and headland v vga x ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds a graphical d look and feel to desqview gives users a choice of window managers look and feels provides a growth path from character mode dos to industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications up to gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and x clients either locally or remotely provides a simple port of applications from other x systems to desqview x and vice versa gives developers a choice of application appearances based on toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required by developers such as push buttons scrollbars pop up dialogue boxes etc can run dos text and ms windows graphics programs locally and remotely adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows excursion for windows vendor digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts price latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos ms windows or later mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ms windows supported card ethernet card network software decnet with pathworks for dos tcp ip with pathworks for dos tcp ip tcp ip with pc tcp from ftp software inc tcp ip with com tcp with demand protocol architecture disk space mbytes hard desk kbyte or mbyte floppy drive features seperate application windows for each x applicatioon displayed by the x server excursion setup utility for installing excursion under ms windows control panes provides an easy way to start x applications and customize environment online help ability to cut and paste text or graphics between x and ms windows ability to compile new fonts ability to redefine keys on the keyboard personal password security access to excursion three button mouse emulation microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows exodus for ms windows vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua hn tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos ms windows or higher mouse recommended graphics ega vga svga dgis ethernet card most cards network software disk space features x r color and monochrome x screen support including bit truecolor backing store and save under options full xdmcp support access control support online help button mouse emulation text and graphics transfers between ms windows and macintosh clipboards microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows hcl exceed w vendor hummingbird communications ltd john street unit markham ontario canada l r g tel fax price copy copies copies or more copies latest version cpu memory mbytes or more recommended operating system dos ms windows version standard and enhanced modes mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga or vga ethernet card any compatible with the networking product you choose network software disk space features makes full use of and other high resolution graphics cards redesigned for ms windows not an implementation of mit x copy paste between x windows and ms windows interactive configuration utility full interactive support for font naming alias schemes font compiler log file of host generated messages backing store and save unders virtual screen support seven start up methods full support for european keyboards font host access rgb databases loading x protocol trace dissassembly functionality microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows micro x win vendor starnet communications lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices micro x win unit ea pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades at of original price educational discount of latest version for x release cpu memory mbytes operating system ms dos or higher ms windows or higher mouse or button with ms compatible driver graphics ms windows supported cards ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included lanera tcpopen winsock compatible network software supported ftp software pc tcp lanera tcpopen sun pc nfs winsock compatible tcp ip stacks disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte needed features x r integrated rsh rexec with displayed results auto start up with xdmcp or rsh rexec easy additional session start up panning supports motif open look and decwindows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows multiview x vendor jsb computer systems ltd cheshire house castle street macclesfield cheshire england sk af tel jsb corporation whispering pines drive suite scotts valley california tel fax price latest version cpu memory operating system dos ms windows mouse graphics ethernet card network software rs direct connections rs modem connections atlantix axcess beame whiteside tcp ip d link tcp ip for dos ftp pc tcp hp arpa services for dos ibm aix access for dos users icl oslan int b locus pci locus tcp ip for dos ms lan manager for unix ms lan manager for unix v ncr token ring novell lan workplace for dos sco xenix net sun pc nfs ungermann bass net one ungermann bassnet one netci int b wollongong pathway access dos wollongong win tcp for dos com open tcp disk space features provides a character server for character applications emulation for dec vt dec vt dec vt sco unix xenix console x open ansi interactive unix console at t unix console automatically invokes the x server when an x client is selected passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes supported full x r font library provided in standard windows format bdf to windows compiler copy and paste of text available single iconic desktop microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc xdivision sw gemini drive beaverton or tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price pc xview for windows for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version cpu recommended memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system ms dos or pc dos or higher ms windows or windows nt mouse recommended but not needed graphics any compatible with ms windows ethernet card network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features runs ms windows applications alongside x clients cut and paste between x clients and ms windows applications using the windows clipboard full support of x r features including the shape extension off loads graphics processing from host computers runs in both standard and enhanced modes of ms windows manages x clients with a standard remote window manager or with ms windows full x fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows windows based compiler that converts bitmap description format bdf fonts to ms windows format fon fonts windows based file transfer program prints files from a remote host on your local printer built in client starter windows based installation and configuration ddl support for network interfaces easy installation procedures x display manager control protocol xdmcp support support for multiple tcp ip network packages comprehensive and well organized user s guide graphics cut paste virtual screen support support the xremote protocol developed by ncd microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover md tel price vista exceed w latest version cpu memory mbytes for ms windows server operating system dos or higher ms windows mouse or button ms compatible mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ega vga or svga any supported by ms windows ethernet card any supported by tcp ip transports listed below network software pc tcp network software for dos by ftp software inc pc nfs by sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos by the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos by the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system by novell excelan open tcp by com corporation hp arpa services by hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns pc by ungermann bass inc bwnfs or telnet package by beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may up to mbytes available for client processing emulates a button mouse with a button mouse full interactive support for x font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x at vendor intergrated inference machines inc computer products division east katella avenue anaheim ca tel and fax price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory mbytes extended memory operating system ms dos or later ms windows or later mouse graphics any graphics card and that supports ms windows ega or vga resolution or better are recommended cga color graphics adapter compaq portable iii or portable plasma display ega with high resolution color display ega whith low resolution color display hercules with high resolution monochrome display ibm a display olivetti monochrome or pvc display olivetti oec display wyse high resolution monochrome moniterm viking monochrome vga video graphics array ethernet card also compatible with excelan com ungermann bass western digital tiara iim s x pac and others network software either excelan s tcp ip driver set or ftp inc pc tcp driver set not included with x at disk space at least mbytes of storage capacity available for x at software excluding optional x fonts to use all x fonts supplied with x at a total of mbytes is required features concurrent ms dos x windows operation concurrent x windows telnet operation cut paste utility ftp utility font compiler for user developed fonts telnet and ftp utilities included compatible with the following ftp software programs when not operated under ms windows ftp the file transfer protocol client ftpsev the file transfer protocol server interdrive the network file system nfs ping a network test tnvt the telnet virtual terminal client microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x one vendor grafpoint saratoga avenue san jose ca tel pst fax uunet grafpnt sales price free demo copies latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos or higher ms windows mouse or button mouse graphics vga super vga a tiga vga boards with s chip set ethernet card network software grafpoint s tcp ip included disk space features x r on screen setup builtin tcp ip supports local clients such as telnet vt window a setup window an rsh window a local window manager dos and windows versions in one product hot key to dos days of telephone technical support microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xvision vendor visionware limited white pine is re badging xvision as cardigan lane exodus for windows leeds ls le simon street suite united kingdom nashua hn tel tel fax fax sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine vware visionware co uk price users users users users users users users educational discounts available adding a user where at least are installed xremote support per pc bundled upgrade full documentation evaluation copy latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos or later ms windows or later mouse recommended but not required graphics ms windows compatible graphics ethernet card network software ftp pc tcp excelan lan workplace for dos locus tcp ip for dos ungermann bass net one tcp pc wollongong win tcp for dos beame whiteside tcp ip sun pc nfs hp lan manager arpa services for dos com open disk space inch high density or inch high density features copy and paste between x and ms windows use a host window manager or allow ms windows to control x clients support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor several user options for performance enhancement x release server fonts and server extensions including xdmcp icccm compliant x clients may also use ms windows fonts easy configuration of the system via dialog boxes provides the functionality of a three button mouse support for all international keyboards supported by windows host access control network aware setup and on line help iconic control panel for configuring xvision dynamic server optimizations xvision runs tests on the pc at install time to see how best to draw to the display support for ncd xremote decnet shape extension bit color ms windows font managers all color classes rsh rexec microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xoftware vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos or higher windows or higher mouse ms windows compatible mouse graphics card with ms windows driver ethernet card network software beame whiteside tcp ip or higher ftp pc tcp of higher dec pathworks or higher hp arpa services or higher novell lan workplace or higher sun pc nfs or higher ungermann bass net one tcp or higher wollongong pathway access or higher wollongong win tcp or higher com open tcp or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions context sensitive on line help system cut and paste between x and ms windows start x applications with ms windows icons single and multiple window modes ms window manager used with x applications virtual screen up to by passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes backing store and save unders motif openlook and decwindows support full font library in fon format bdf to ms windows fon font compiler log file optionally saves system messages tutorial on the x window system microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows os os os os os os os os os os os os os ibm x windows for os vendor ibm solutions center voice ibm call fax price plus for ibm tcp ip for os required latest version version part number g x windows g tcp ip cpu sx or higher memory mbytes recommended minimum operating system ibm os or higher mouse os compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a xga or other os supported card ethernet card compatible with os ndis network software ibm tcp ip required disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the os advanced pc operating system provides full x r server x font library x font compiler x client utilities runs as another object on the workplace shell wps desktop cut and paste between os dos and windows applications running under os full tcp ip implementation including ftp telnet lamail ping finger slip rsh remote printing bootp vt and many more other modules available including nfs programmer s toolkit includes kerberos rpc dpi ncs ftp api sockets api resolver api and more os os os os os os os os os os os os os macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh exodus vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua hn tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu all macintosh computers exodus ii runs on macintosh computers with a or processor and a floating point co processor memory mbytes operating system version or later version or later if you plan to use communications toolbox for network connections mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip mactcp by apple computer inc part of commsolutions tcp ip tcport lan workplace by novell inc formerly tcport host access decnet tssnet by thursby software systems inc a special version is distributed as part of commsolutions decnet community mac distributed by everex inc decnet decnet for macintosh part of pathworks by digital equipment corporation adsp pathworks distributed by digital equipment corporation appletalk disk space features supports multifinder under a ux clients and server run on the macintosh under macintosh operating system clients run on another computer conforms to the macintosh human interface guidelines user standard macintosh pull down menus functions as a macintosh program under the macintosh operating system handles macintosh events can use normal macintosh environment macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macx vendor apple computer inc cupertino ca tel tlx or any apple dealer businessland microage etc price macx order no m ll c macx manual set order no m ll b macx update product order no m ll a mac x and x site license order no m ll c latest version cpu any macintosh memory mbytes operating system system software or later mouse graphics bit and bit graphics ethernet card network software localtalk ethernet disk space at least two floppy disks for or later mbytes hard disk tor features x release server icccm compatible cut and paste of text and graphics between the macintosh and x shape extension including shaped windows on the macintosh desktop optional built in icccm compliant window manager built in bdf font compiler built in standard colormaps built in window managers support for system software version support for multiple monitors copy and paste text and graphics macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga unknown vendor price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features amiga machines offer an x server and open look tools and libraries on a full svr implementation amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga x window system version release for the amiga computer vendor gfxbase inc dale luck ellwell drive milpitas ca tel fax usenet boing dale bix duck amiga boing dale bloom beacon mit edu price yearly maintenance fee latest version cpu amigados computer a a a a a t a a a memory mbyte for server and x color display more ram required for local clients operating system amigados operating system v or later mouse amiga button mouse or optical button mouse tablet trackball or international keyboard graphics ntsc to x hz pal x hz overscan genlock and interlace supported a viking x hz x hz super screens to x scrollable on smaller display productivity screen x hz noninterlaced x interlaces two colors out of a palette of can be selected cursor has two separately controlled colors color server colors from a viking gray scales some resolutions restricted gda x x x noninterlaced m ameristar gx x x noninterlaced m ethernet card commodore a network software commodore tcp ip or syndesis decnet for ethernet and serial connections sana for local disk space mbytes features contains x r clients fonts etc amiga xpr uses the standard amiga printer device technology which supports more that different types of printers black and white of color xamiga r monochrome and color servers optional programmer s toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs optional mwm window manager optional toolkits widgets motif xview hp amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari x tos window server and x tos window server color vendor x software michael gehret x tos division marktstrasse w groenenbach germany tel fax email xtosinfo xsoft uucp price x tos window server for all tos computers dm x tos window server color for all tos computers dm option for or processors only dm x tos window server color option and option pex t b a overseas order handling dm none ec european order handling dm latest version cpu atari mega st ste tt to memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system tos or higher mouse atari mouse graphics x tos window server monochrome x x monochrome x x tt sm x tos window server color monochrome x x monochrome x x tt sm color x x color x x color x x color x x ethernet card atari card mega or vme bus riebl wacker mega or vme bus end enclosure peter j mckinney pm longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.windows.x	xview sun xgl performance problem i ve written an application for sparcstation gx under openwindows the application uses xview stuff to create my window and the sun xgl graphics library for rendering into the canvas the application does real time d animation but it does not update the the display fast enough i m using notify set itimer xview call to periodically kick off my update routine and it s not happening fast enough i want it to update times second it s only doing about also it appears to be compute bound because if i run anything else while my appplication is up the update rate slows down even more any ideas thanks
comp.windows.x	dump of login screen i m running hp ux with hp vue and i need a hardcopy of the login window the one asking for login and password to include in a manual i have tried xwd display hostname root out login xwd from a login on a remote terminal but it doesn t work xwd seems to wait for the window server but the window server doesn t answer any suggestions i must use xwd because i don t have access to ftp and i can t obtain another program to grab the screen thanks in advance nadia pitacco nadia pitacco siap sistemi s p a via g b grassi milano italy e mail morgaine siap sublink org
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone from experience you would be much better off with an xterminal if this is a new install the performance will be at least four times better in addition it would be much easier to install and use on top of that they will cost about the same price a clone with mb ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp ip for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend a whole lot of i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp i think your performance will depend upon the x server i m running linux and xfree on a mhz dx with mb of ram mb swap and it runs just fine its a lot better than some of the crappy old xterminals in the labs at school anyway you could probably outfit a sx with a minimal linux x setup for and be better off than with an xterminal imho scott j scott farrow student sysadmin programmer university of colorado computing network services boulder colorado usa phone internet farrow spot colorado edu linux users do it for free
comp.windows.x	re xterm fonts in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes i have a problem which many of you might have run into we use lots of ascii terminals and use them to the max meaning lots of attributes line draw etc now what i need to do is come up with a working xterm which will emulate our advanced ascii terminals as closely as possible this means needing all attributes to work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem to meet these criteria are a pairs of fonts in which one is bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like x and x b under misc they work great except i need a font one size larger x now x works well but there is no bold counterpart to make matters worse i need the fonts in some form i can use for tektronix xterminals it seems they like pcf format although i should be able to convert a bdf format anyone have any suggestions mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp this would be tedious but if you have the time you could get the bdf file i can email it to you if you don t have it or don t have easy access to the x source and could make your own bold font from this since each glyph is just a bitmap you could write a program to convert each glyph to a bitmap readable file use bitmap to make each glyph bold and convert the results back to bdf format then use bdftopcf to create the pcf file then stick the pcf in usr lib x fonts misc or wherever and include it in fonts dir and voila you ll have what you need ernie coskrey ncr corporation mcpd columbia ernie coskrey columbiasc ncr com platt springs road west columbia sc i m out there busting my buns every night tell your old man to drag walton and lanier up and down the court for minutes roger murdoch co pilot
comp.windows.x	re twm in article may samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes i run twm and would like to execute some program before leaving twm in other words i would like to run some program before i do f quit is it possible to make a menu section which would contain these two parts in your menu definition put quit twm f function execute and quit then define function execute and quit some program f quit barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	how to draw in invert mode with color how can i draw an object of a specified color over objects of varying colors and then erase it without having to redraw everything else what s happening is this if i draw it using gxcopy it is drawn in the specified color if i erase it using gxcopy with foreground and background reversed it erases whatever it overlayed i then need to redraw all of the items it crossed yuch if i draw it using gxinvert it is drawn in a random color nothing resembling what i requested it properly restores the color of underlying objects in erase mode what s the solution scott k frost uucp osu cis chemabs scott frost same mbox bitnet skf cas inet scott frost cas org personal shrewsbury rd upper arlington oh
comp.windows.x	syncronous modal dialog hi i have a lots of problems using xview libraries release in order to do the following i want to create a modal dialog which block the program flow a syncronous dialog ala macintosh as the notice panel does but with text item list item and other xview objects the modal dialog also must allows the timer to be called why notice doesn t do that the problems are using the xv window loop functions most xview objects dont work as the list item and the timers aren t called with the notify dispatch explicit i have problem because never attempt to do direct dispaching from within a callback routine as say the xview programming manual third edition on page uhm i know this number but i need to do dispatching just inside a callback routine help me please thanks in advance giovanni p s please send replay directly to my address belove i haven t direct access to internet giovanni beani list s p a p za dei facchini pisa fax my email address is list applelink apple com beware this address is shared by many users so put the word gbeani at the start of subject field and follow it by the real subject thanks
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes may i humbly suggest desqview x of course i m biased i have a weird oddball one of a kind video card it s an orchid fahrenheit i get to run it in x with dvx at least i don t have to worry about straining my eyes with that super vga stuff
comp.windows.x	re sun as x terminal xkernel is available for sun s is there a similar package available is this public domain if yes where can one obtain a copy from yes it is it is available at ftp ctr columbia edu probably in pub xkernel in response to the earlier gentlemans question you could theoretically recompile xkernel on a sun the binaries available are for the sun but the author says it could be used on most architectures and he does have a do it yourself type distribution we use xkernel for about machines here email me if you have any questions i can help you with greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c l m m s g w w t r x
comp.windows.x	re online help motif widget in article may serval net wsu edu d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes i am looking for online help motif widgets public domain or otherwise to run on a sun sparc i d be especially interested in help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc anybody know of any widgets like this text graphics bristol technologies has help clone of mswindows help frame makers of framemaker has frameview text only graphical software technology has xtra widgets includes help there are probably others check out ics widget data book i actually wrote one for the last company i worked for however it is locked in their internal reuse library it was a good one too imho and totally unbiased view of things bill scott bills feeninx metronet com hi graphics consultant wk american airlines
comp.windows.x	ics widget data book does anyone know how i can obtain information about the ics widget data book i only have their email address and they don t seem to be reading or replying to their mail jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore no drilling information services voice ringsveien box ext stabekk fax norway i don t believe in astrology but then i m a capricorn and capricorns don t believe in astrology jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore no
comp.windows.x	geometry in font units in place of pixels i am planning to convert my motif app from pixel to font units which would all be set in the app s resource file instead of hard coded in the program however the word here is from people who tried this already that for some unknown reason xmform offsets placed in the resource file are still interpreted in pixel units forcing people to code those offset font units into the program can somebody confirm this thanks joe pannon pannon bcsfse ca boeing com
comp.windows.x	button popup menus with athena widgets ok i m being driven batty trying to create popup menus ie button press and a menu appears i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded and a little twiddling but something is escaping me name david koblas domain koblas netcom com affiliation extra mile consulting phone quote time has little to do with infinity and jelly donuts
comp.windows.x	tool to convert a gif file to xpm pixmap format i need the tool described in the subject line is there such a tool available via ftp if so i d appreciate it if someone could e mail me the location and pathname thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	ignorant imake xfig question hi folks i m trying to compile xfig on a ss running sunos and ow and i m having a little trouble with make imake specifically make bombs when it needs to use any xaw file this isn t surprising since x files on suns with the standard ow distribution are in various places under usr openwin xaw files are in usr openwin share include x xaw actually the real problem is that i know squat about imake and i don t know how to tell imake where the x files are i can see from the makefile that it s looking in the wrong places but the first line of the makefile reads makefile generated by imake do not edit help is there some way i can edit the imakefile to tell it where to look i have set defines dopenwin bug as it said to in the readme file email and post are both fine thanks in advance dave
comp.windows.x	x r on solbourne hi netters having inherited a solbourne s sun compatible i was wondering if somebody has ported x r to this beast since solbournce computer inc folded up i don t know where i can get the kernel to move from r since they never joined the mit consortium the regular distribution doesn t work any pointers will be highly appreciated julian o julian anigbogu loria loria fr
comp.windows.x	x screen saver hi i have a question which is not directly related to x screen saver what x screen saver does is to blank the screen if it has been idle for some time i don t want my screen to go blank but to get locked or call xlock program is there a parallel call to xsetscreensaver which locks my screen or call my lock program after certain amount of idle time or is there a way to find out how long the server has been idle thanks vadi vadi csi com
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc i highly recommend starnet s micro x they have versions for dos and windows with support for pc tcp or the clarkson packet drivers i have used it successfully with twm mwm and olwm over both ethernet and slip and their tech support is top notch they really impressed me kevin kevin j jarnot jarnot kin lap upenn edu the monkey boys are evil lead programmer analyst keyboardist lord whorfin is supreme univ of pennsylvania language analysis center market st suite phila pa vita non jerk
comp.windows.x	re uimx a motif application generator in article may xact demon co uk ptm xact demon co uk paul thomas mahoney writes newsgroups comp windows x path linus mitre org linus agate howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet warwick qmw dcs qmw demon xact demon co uk ptm from ptm xact demon co uk paul thomas mahoney organization x act solutions limited x newsreader tin pl date tue may gmt lines i am looking of information regarding uimx i believe this is an application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given me a contact i need to get hold of the programmers guide or something like it paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone i went to the xworld convention in ny and talked to the people from bluestone who make uimx they sent me a huge ring binder of info and a demo tape let me know what you need steve chase schase xodus mitre org
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc pm longs lance colostate edu peter j mckinney writes price pc xview for dos for for ncd just announced a new generation of pc xview they changed the name a little though and i can t remember exactly pc xsomething it now supports windows and their press release implies that since it s still priced in the range and it s so feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this is not a direct quote from the literature but i think it sums it up also i have never used the product
comp.windows.x	how to make a window s input be all caps without caps lock an application we must use requires upper case input i d like to be able to simply move my cursor into the window where that application is running just a text window xterm or some such and have everything i type be entered as all caps when the cursor is in any of my many other windows i want to automatically return to normal functionality i have point to type set is there a way to do this in x specifically ow on sparcs is there a way to mess with xdefaults to make a category of window do this any hints would be most appreciated i program in c but not x although i can pick up somthing that s not too involved thanks kindly kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	resource listing for x r does anyone know of a source book file etc of all the standard resource names in x r a small description of what the resource is would also be helpful but not vital any help in which direction to go would be greatly appreciated thanks robin kinzy office home brigham young university college of engineering technology robin r kinzy clyde building e n provo ut provo ut phone phone email rrk bones et byu edu bruce owen lee we will pay the price brigham young university but we will not count the cost college of engineering technology email lee bones et byu edu rush
comp.windows.x	announce xm commoninteract ui development sys xm commoninteract another user interface development system if you would like to implement x toolkit applications with c in a style like this mini sample application class test public xmwindow void cmd char void quit void public test xmwindow xm test window void initialize void test initialize xmdropdownmenu menu createdropdownmenu menu addlabel file menu additems entry menu item one cb test cmd entry menu item two cb test cmd nullentry menu addseparator menu additem entry e xit cb test quit addsubpane edit myedit edit myedit settext hello world void test cmd char n edit myedit settext n void test quit void exit void xmapp initialize new test initialize then continue reading contents of the current release s readme xm is a user interface framework for the c language built upon x and the x toolkit it is designed to be a simple and intuitive programming interface to access the functionality of commonly used widgets xm was initially created for the motif widget set now support for the athena widgets was added applications created with xm run in both environments without changes although many nice features are only available when using motif in some situations xm extends the underlying toolkit i e providing a combobox borrowed from ms windows but never tries to replace it data of user interface objects is left to the widgets and only duplicated in rare cases xm has nothing common with motif besides the general idea to encapsulate motif widgets in c objects and the in it s name many ideas for the xm architecture came from digitalk s smalltalk version which provides an easy to use framework for windows pm mac applications in the very first time of development i used the windows dialog editor and a simple parser to create similar smalltalk and xm dialogs top level objects in xm windows systemdialogs and toolboxes which use the automatic layout feature of various composite widgets in motif and xaw userdialogs which can be individually laid out with a user interface builder a first version of such a dialog editor is included in this distribution controls children of top level objects statictext staticimage pushbutton checkbox radiobutton edit listbox combobox groupbox panearea drawing toolbar the staticimage and all the button classes can display b w x bitmap format or color gif format pictures as an alternative to a label text event handling is done by a simple but powerful mechanism which redirects xt callbacks to member functions of xm objects commoninteract ii is built upon the xm drawing class and provides components for building direct manipulative applications is is a very simplified implementation of some features from the commoninteract system research project of our institute in an approach to define a software achitecture for implementing direct manipulative applications with multiple interaction media i e sound alternative input devices if you are interrested look into the june issue of the joop sigs publications journal of object oriented programming there should be our paper about commoninteract but be aware that it is our state of the art from commoninteract ii is still undocumented and is included because it was used to implement the dialog editor it currently supports only drawing primitives lines rectangles circles but we plan to extend it to support bitmaps and some controls also known problem the xm drawing class has no redrawing strategy always redraws the whole window even after minimal changes like selecting an object this looks very ugly on slow displays and should be fixed about this first release xm is still incomplete and has a lot of bugs but we are using it here for smaller applications which are running without problems so i think i can call it a beta release which can be used to develop applications for any non critical purposes commoninteract may be called a pre alpha release it s development will be continued this year because we plan to use it for another research project here besides incompleteness and the redrawing problem it seems to be stable and can be used for experimental applications platforms this release was compiled and tested on hp running hp ux sun sparc running sunos release pc at running linux v pl caution although the whole stuff was initially developed using an at t standard c compiler this release is tested only with gnu g or above the next release will be tested with both compilers where to get it i have uploaded it on export lcs mit edu as contrib xm tar z send a mail if you cannot find it there e mail addr below where to find more information the doc directory contains install how to build the libraries and examples readme gnu problems and limitations when using gnu g read usersguide txt a tutorial how to use xm reference txt a first try of a xm class reference manual the readme files in the samples gives a brief description of each of the seven samples xm commoninteract is free software for any non profit purposes see the file lib copyright for details send any comments bug reports and donations to the author bernhard strassl vienna user interface group institute for applied computer science and information systems university of vienna lenaugasse a wien austria e mail xmplus ani univie ac at
comp.windows.x	q xterm s hello i m looking for a good explanation and example of the usefulness of the s option for xterm slave mode on file descriptor xxx sure but xterm sp does not seem to grab what arrives on my window where is my misunderstan ding tia fred frederic pierre ensps lsit rue de l universite f strasbourg france tel fax e mail fred sobel u strasbg fr hamradio fc hfd
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes farrow ucsu colorado edu j scott farrow writes mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones i m running linux and xfree on a mhz dx with mb of ram mb swap and it runs just fine its a lot better than some of the crappy old xterminals in the labs at school anyway you will not come even close to the performance of an xp series plus you excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt that your xp series gets commerical verions x servers for s cards can get k xstones so the performance is there and additionally since is running unix multiple users can use the system which i have done in my home setup maintenance is minimal if you can read readme files for the x servers and for bsd amancio hasty this message brought to you by the letters x and s and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository of all my work e mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm icon manager in article risky convergent com sxs extol convergent com s sridhar writes keywords tvtwm icon manager need help on resource bindings for tvtwm here s what i d like to see the icon manager do say i iconify a window and this shows up on the icon list now when i pan into another section of the virtual desktop and try to deiconify the window that i iconed sp earlier i d like this window to deiconify in the current region any resources that i can use to do this or more important can i do this rather find it painful to remember where i iconified a window go back there and deiconify or simply it is a pain to pan around to get to a deiconified window thanks ssridhar convergent com just opened up the distribution
comp.windows.x	any way to stop and application from re titling i m quite familiar with a variety of window title setting methods my question is is there any way via resources etc to stop an application s ability to re name it s own name iconname properties who cares if it s not nice to the application i want control mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer i represent myself only ncar po box boulder co so i ve got that going for me which is nice think clearly
comp.windows.x	help i am just beginning to try using the athena toolkit and am having some problems getting started i think that some files are missing on the system but there is the possibility that they are just in a different directory when i try to link my program it can t find xtinitailize xtrealizewidget xtmainloop xtcreatemanagedwidget or commandwidgetclass i ve included intrinsic h and command h i also had a problem on compile with xtncallback but replaced that with a null in order to compile and see if there were any other problems i haven t used a toolkit before and this is simply an example i got from the manuel can someone tell me where i might look for these calls that is in what file not what directory they are supposed to be under because the system manager doesn t believe in standard directories and generally does things his own way i am using unix thank you for your assistance t j adamsson
comp.windows.x	xdec x r server and decstation sans decnet has anybody built an x r server that can run on a personal decstation line with ultrix the only catch is that being personal machines we did not install decnet onto them which the xdec server on gatekeeper requires any replies welcome joe shelby stu jwshelby vax acs jmu edu
comp.windows.x	re uimx a motif application generator thanks for all the responses i ve made contact with the uk distributor paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in article may griffin itc gu edu au michaelw itc gu edu au writes does anyone have any ideas that may be implemented to help prevent users from losing sight of the cursor in an xterm window under certain circumstances where there are many screen based fields what i would like to do is make the cursor flash on or off but so far haven t found a way of doing so has anybody else had similar problems or fixes to make a cursor stand out more than the standard type users can t find the cursor run xneko it ll turn the cursor into a mouse rodent variety if your users still can t find it the cat will greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	re search for decent x based text editor in article lv sh innr e dimebox cs utexas edu spatel cs utexas edu semir patel writes ok i am looking for a decent x based text editor for the the following reasons o i hate emacs o i hate vi o i hate xedit coming from a pc based environment having been brought up on borland s excellent turbo c pascal environments something with the following properties would fit the bill o pull down menus o accelerator keys o multiple windows o mouse aware o regular exp support o mappable key bindings o easy to use o and most important of all free does such a beast exist sure sounds like axe to me michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in may ims com tonyf ims com antonio freixas writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes oh boy have i wanted this too however i believe that the cursor will be under the server s control could be wrong on an xterminal for example if the server was not the one controlling the cursor then trying to get the xterm application to do the blinking would cause needless and yucky network overhead consistantly most people who write cursor blinking code just implement the simple case a straight msec or so on off cycle however the cursor will work much better if cursor blinking is suppressed i e the cursor is made visible any time the cursor moves and for to sec thereafter if you don t do this the cursor will be hard to track when in motion you allways could port and use emu from export lcs mit edu contrib emu tar z we ve implemented a blinking text cursor for the very reasons people mentioned you can even configure the actual size of the text cursor horizontal ver tical line cursors smaller block cursors turn on and off blinking set the blink rate and so on you even get blinking text ok enough advertising i haven t looked at the xterm code in this respect but from the memories i have when we had to decide whether to start with xterm and make it do what we wanted mostly the blinking text i d say it won t be easy since xterm is a hairy mess understandable if you follow it s roots back to x the actual task to get the cursor to blink isn t that difficult if you provide the right hooks as antonio mentioned you ll have to show the cursor directly after it has moved or people will become confused since it s a good idea to take the cursor off the screen when you do anything on screen anyways this isn t very complicated you ll just have to start the blink process with the cursor showing directly after it s mapped as for the portability of emu and it s newest version the one on export is still the same as on the r contrib tape we wanted to get out a new release for over six months now but unfortunately we re drowning in work but since the changes aren t affectiong emu s behavior much i d say whoever wants to try emu shouldn t wait for a new version as is emu won t work on bsd derived systems e g suns with anything else than a csh there is a fix to this which is very short remove one line of code i ll put this on export today michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	re problems with xdm under x r solaris db sunbim be danny backx writes yes that is a bug in the x r port of xterm you sometimes get this when you start from xdm i have reported this to casper but don t know whether it made it into his set of patches yet basically in mit clients xterm main c there is a test at line which checks errno after attempting to open dev tty add the errno einval case to it and you should be fine it s actually a bug in the solaris kernel we could add a workaround to xterm open should never return einval but it does i didn t have time to update the r sunos patch lately but non of the existing problems seem to warrant a new set of patches since xsession is a bourne shell script anyway you might as well add a line etc timezone as it is done in etc profile xdm coulda also keep the xdm environment variable it should have inherited it from the environment casper
comp.windows.x	re patch for x r under solaris cfl buc edu au colin linahan writes hi sorry if this is a faq but could someone please tell me where i can get the patch es for x r so that i can compile it under solaris export lcs mit edu contrib r sunos patch tar z get xsun multi screen tar z while you re at it casper
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article boutilie graphite boutilie rtsg mot com eric boutilier writes pm longs lance colostate edu peter j mckinney writes price pc xview for dos for for ncd just announced a new generation of pc xview they changed the name a little though and i can t remember exactly pc xsomething it now supports windows and their press release implies that since it s still priced in the range and it s so feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this is not a direct quote from the literature but i think it sums it up also i have never used the product it s called pc xware it is based on ncd ware their x terminal software which imho is excellent pc xware will include x remote and be optimized for bit machines it s x r based it will support remote management etc not an ncd employee just a fan edward j gallant iii georgia tech station atlanta georgia e mail egallant cc gatech edu phone
comp.windows.x	x r pl and sun i works but not on the screen hello i have a problem with x r on a sun i an i hope that someone can help me with it i ve built x from the mit sources after applying all patches i have got i think building was easy after installing everything i started x but nothing happened but the screen and the keyboard freezed the machine seemed to hang i loged in from another machine an found the sun i running well ps told me that there s a x server and a xterm running and with some experimenting with the mouse and repeatedly pressing d i blindly hit the xterm endet the session and got my prompt back i guess it s a device problem but i did not find the correct device yet i ve got a sun i with a b w framebuffer ace v rev sunos and rom please help me i m able to run clients on the sun and send the output to other machines but that s not what i did it for thanks in advance stefan
comp.windows.x	monitor freq requirment for xfree repost i need some advice regarding monitor to use with xfree i have an et based graphic card with meg of memory i know this card is supported in xfree because a friend of mine has one of these in his pc his monitor is colour capable of displaying x resolution i cant afford this kind of expensive monitor i heard from somewhere that xfree requires multisync monitor with minimum horizontal scan frequency of khz is this true i would only like to use xfree at resolution of x in colours and so was thinking of buying a cheap svga monitor interlaced cheap svga monitors only have have maximum horizontal scan frequency of about khz will this kind of monitor work with xfree please reply by email thaks in advance arshad arshad mahmood tel siemens nixdorf information systems limited fax siemens nixdorf house email arshad sni co uk oldbury bracknell berkshire rg fz england
comp.windows.x	color tektronics term emulation does anyone know of an x based terminal emulator which can emulate a color tektronics graphics terminal such as tek or tek etc
comp.windows.x	x on dos or windows i m posting this request again since the last one had no title i m looking for x server software on dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but would like to be aware of other solutions namely public domain or shareware implementations i d also like to know in the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc if you have any experiences in this area please let me know c u by e mario valente
comp.windows.x	re button popup menus with athena widgets ok i m being driven batty trying to create popup menus ie button press and a menu appears i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded and a little twiddling but something is escaping me read the documentation for the simplemenu positioning the simplemenu the reference is to the r documentation i had not done this before but in less than mins i knocked up the following wcl application that does what you want using a command widget even if you are not familiar with wcl the example is so simple it should be pretty obvious what is going on the crucial thing is the use of the xawpositionsimplemenu and menupopup actions ari wcchildren app app wccreate command app wcpopups menu app translations override n btn down xawpositionsimplemenu menu menupopup menu menu wccreate simplemenu menu wcchildren one two three one wccreate smebsb two wccreate smebsb three wccreate smebsb jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	re copyrights there will always be a zillion lawyers who if they get paid well enough will sue your brains out gosh can t anyone send them off to another planet well maybe it would be better to just send apple microsoft and a few others that way we would get rid of some terrible products as well d jda nada kth se drag n drop dead johan danielsson
comp.windows.x	re seeking a simple wm in article may nenuphar saclay cea fr basile soleil serma cea fr basile starynkevitch writes i m seeking a simple window manager icccm compliant with a minimal doc i don t want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened to uwm is it still available in some form it s been years since i used it or heard anyone talk about it paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc hasty netcom com amancio hasty jr writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system show me the realistic price tag i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt nice but way over my point is price performance not just performance mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may labtam labtam oz au graeme labtam labtam oz au graeme gill writes in article hastyc zgqc fux netcom com hasty netcom com amancio hasty jr writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones you will not come even close to the performance of an xp series plus you excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt this is hardly apples to apples try running the benchmark over a network to the clone and and if you re still getting k xstones then you ve got a good machine x terminals aren t just a server you know graeme gill i would further add that a s mb mbdisk is going to cost way more than probably color makes it not apples apples too xterminals provide better price performance than pcs you can make a pc much cheaper and perform much worse and you can make pc s perform great and cost more you pay extra for the additional functinality and expandability of a pc for home user that extra functionality is worth the added cost kelly murray
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comp.windows.x	multi line greeting is it possible to have xdm put up a multi line greeting if so how do i specify such a thing in the xresources file i don t have much anything for x books so i can t look it up thanks mark van overbeke systems software programmer computing services bitnet mark umnmor bitnet vms university of minnesota morris internet mark caa mrs umn edu vms morris mn mark cda mrs umn edu ultrix success is the progressive realization of your worthwhile goal or dream
comp.windows.x	colors and x windows aicons extract from the color readme file for anthony s icon library for network discussion color coordination i tried to start a discussion in comp windows x at the start of the year about some sort of standard color table that icons should follow say to colors including colors for a small grey scale but no one responded at all the problem is that if the colors for icons are just used willy nilly you will soon find that the workstations color table devotes itself solely the window manager icons and other adminstrative tasks instead of applications that actually require the colors for proper working color needful applications such as picture and graphic displayers animation real time video raytracers etc the following is a suggested color table for icons and general use icons window managers and general applications should follow this table or something like it unless the application is color needful for each primary color red green blue three colors eg values and this results in colors representing most of the standard colors for use in icons two extra shades of grey eg vales black and white red other colors probably of some primary color to provide shading a and d look to buttons and titlebars in the window manager this table represents colors and represents a large range of posibilities for the above administrative services of the workstation anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit gu edu au a gods idea of amusement is a snakes ladders game with greased rungs terry pratchett wyrd sisters
comp.windows.x	re automatically configuring display variable ainman css itd umich edu andrew douglas inman writes does anyone out there know of a way to have a unix machine automatically set it s display variable to that of the xterm you re using when it s not the machine that s serving you x the best i ve been able to come up with has been a rather convoluted script that extracts your ip from the whos command and it frequently fails not to mention that it requires having your user name added to it andrew inman consultant itd consulting and support services ainman umich edu university of michigan from my own notes on this subject methods to automatically passwd authorization from one machine to another this also includes the problem of notifing the remote host of the current display that is being used use rsh rexec on the method in the xauth manual set up the your rhosts file in the home directory on the remote machine so that a password in not required to remotly execute commands xauth extract display rsh other xauth merge this method is also used by xrsh to pass authorization my vampire program also uses a variation however i wrap it as part of the remote command sequence eg xauth add auth included in this method is the use of xrlogin and xrsh to do this job for you these programs usally the newer ones that is allow you to pass a secified list of environment variables which includes the display and or a copy of the authorization code required the xon program available if enabled on sun machines will also pass environment variables as well as the current directory you will however be required to store the authority in such a variable for passing unless you are also have shared home directories warning environment variables and command line arguments are visible in ps listing with the appropiate flags as such passing authorization information in environment variables or as arguments is not recomended the recommended method as given in the manual shown above is safe from the view of other users wrap it as part of the term environment variable this method uses the fact that most remote command executors do pass the term environment variable to the remote host it is then a matter of an appropiate script in your remote login file to extract the information from the term environment variable and set up things appropiatly a version of the xrlogin script is available on the network which does this basically you change the term environment variable before the actual call to rlogin is performed to include your display and your authorization on the remote machine you then extract this information and return the term environment variable to normal before you use it for reseting or stty ing your terminal script for launching rlogin bin sh bin rl rlogin with display if n display then case display in display hostname display esac term term display xauth nextract display export term fi rlogin add to your cshrc or login if term then if echo term tr cd then echo term cut d f xauth nmerge setenv display echo term cut d f setenv term echo term cut d f endif endif xterm command to use xterm t hostname e bin rl hostname nfs write it to a file on a shared nfs partition you have access to note that if the home directories are nfs mounted then authorization is automatically passed hoever you will still have to pass your display environment variable via a file or other means ie login host echo display x host remote host setenv display cat x host finger for the info in a plan file this involves encrypting the information into your plan or project and having the remote machine finger for the information this has the disadvantage of having the information to anyone fingering the user thus requiring a encryption method that is uniq to each individual ie the method of decyrption must not be shared or known by others nor should it be easy to determine a improvment is to use the who fingered me technique to only give the information only to your own remote accounts and not just to anyone who is asking this last method was developed last year by a second year here untill i explained to him the need for the encryption at which point he gave up this method it is however a valid method it is easer than but less secure anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit gu edu au magic is real unless declared an integer john p melvin
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows on the subject of ghostscript it will also solve the earlier request of converting postscript to hpgl to filter into interleaf david warren internet warren atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu warren dept of atmospheric sciences ak university of washington decus e pubs library committee representative sealug decus vice chair
comp.windows.x	vxt windowing terminal help e g l i n a f b from dennis l hart date may pm cst hart tel no dept ccsg scwa sas to internet addressee smtp xpert expo lcs mit edu subject vxt windowing terminal help greetings we have several vxt windowing terminals and associated software on our network we are able to open a lat terminal window to any of our workstation nodes but we are unable to get a lat x session to work we have customized the terminal security to allow all lat connections trying to invoke a lat x session from the vxt results in the following message being displayed in the terminal manager window message area host does not support x sessions the host is a vax model and does support x sessions opening a lat terminal window and logging into the server node setting the display variable as follows set display create node lat transport lat and then trying to create a decterm on the vxt as follows create term decterm detach fails and gives the following error message dectermport failed to find language xopendisplay returned null decw f cant open displ can t open display the vxt is using its system defaults ie default font s language except for the security options to allow all connections and options enabling lat protocol we have vt windowing terminals and the above things were enough to allow lat x sessions vms version is running decwindows motif of vax model s please help dennis hart atlantic research corporation directorate of computer sciences eglin afb fl
comp.windows.x	need help compiling xtmenu i am having trouble compiling xtmenu i am running on a sparc ipc using sunos and openwindows i am getting undefined references to arguments to xtsetarg such as xttextedit xttextread etc am i using the wrong version of a library missing an include file any help would be greatly appreciated jeff jeff whitmire man is the best computer we email jwhit wbst e xerox com can put aboard a spacecraft phone and the only one that snailmail salt road c can be mass produced with webster ny unskilled labor wernher von braun
comp.windows.x	re seeking a simple wm pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes in article basile soleil serma cea fr basile starynkevitch writes i m seeking a simple window manager icccm compliant with a minimal doc i don t want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened to uwm is it still available in some form it s been years since i used it or heard anyone talk about it i m positive that uwm isn t icccm compliant if you want it the r sources are still available on export lcs mit edu in pub r kaleb
comp.windows.x	help with porting screensaver function this is a question aimed at those who have done some server code hacking i am attempting to add a working savescreen function to a new server i have been able to get the screen to blank out properly and through debugging i can see that my savescreen function is being called with on which for some arcane reason means to blank the screen my problem is that this function is never being called again with on even after i have moved the mouse and or typed some keys my question is what am i likely to be missing that would cause this problem i copied the basic design of my function from the existing versions static bool next savescreen scr on screenptr scr bool on this was copied from the omron server code is it the right way if on screen saver on nextsetlasteventtime if on screen saver on save user s current setting next save screen brightness nxscreenbrightness my eventhandle nxsetscreenbrightness my eventhandle blank the screen else unblank the screen nxsetscreenbrightness my eventhandle next save screen brightness return true i can see in the server os code where the screensaver is called to turn on the saver but i cannot find where it wakes up the server and unblanks the screen any tips help would be appreciated thanks douglas scott center for computer music research and composition university of california santa barbara internet nextmail ok doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald writes yes don t confuse the mouse cursor with the text cursor in the xterms the latter is only controlled by the application back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar xt app addtimeout doesn t work in xterm because despite appearances to the contrary xterm is not really an xt based application other sources like timeouts and inputs are never checked in xterm s main loop so don t be surprised when you try this and it doesn t work kaleb
comp.windows.x	re ics widget data book in article may nordic offshore no olav nordic offshore no jan olav eide writes does anyone know how i can obtain information about the ics widget data book i only have their email address and they don t seem to be reading or replying to their mail ics integrated computer solutions incorporated broadway cambridge ma vox fax email info ics com circle on reader service card mike mcgary mcgary intellection com intellection inc dallas texas vox fax
comp.windows.x	re xterm fonts bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes i have a problem which many of you might have run into we use lots of ascii terminals and use them to the max meaning lots of attributes line this means needing all attributes to work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem to meet these criteria are a pairs of fonts in which one is bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like x and x b under misc they work great except i need a font one size larger x now x works well but there is no bold counterpart you don t need a bold counterpart from man xterm fb font this option specifies a font to be used when dis playing bold text this font must be the same height and width as the normal font if only one of the normal or bold fonts is specified it will be used as the normal font and the bold font will be produced by overstriking this font the default is to do overstriking of the normal font i have tried that with one font if your xterm terminfos termcaps are set up to not remap bold which they are be default to reverse then nothing happens when bold is displayed it would appear at least in x r than you cannot display bold in an xterm without specifying two fonts a normal and a bold i wish someone would prove that incorrect mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	sun openwindows problem static linking and x libraries i build two executables for the same application let s call them papp uses shared libs and spapp statically linked the problem is that i get problems when trying to build the static one but not the dynamic one see the trace below btw the static one runs fine despite the ominous error message can someone clue me in as to why the static one bombs at link time thanks very much sandiway dr sandiway fong nec research institute inc independence way princeton nj fax here is the linking stage usr quintus bin sun ld e start bstatic papp o usr quintus generic qplib library sun libpl a usr quintus generic qplib library sun libplm a usr quintus bin sun libqp a lsspkg lxpm lm l usr local guide lib lguidexv lxvps lxview lolgx lx lxext lcps lc lpixrect o spapp undefined xesetcreategc xesetfreefont xesetclosedisplay xeseterror xinitextension xesetfreegc xesetcopygc xesetcreatefont xesetflushgc xeseteventtowire xeseterrorstring xesetwiretoevent error code make fatal error command failed for target spapp ldd spapp spapp statically linked the shared lib version is linked in exactly the same way save for the omission of bstatic ldd papp lsspkg usr local lib libsspkg so lxpm usr local lib libxpm so lxvps usr openwin lib libxvps so lxview usr openwin lib libxview so lolgx usr openwin lib libolgx so lx usr openwin lib libx so lcps usr openwin lib libcps so lc usr lib libc so lpixrect usr lib libpixrect so ldl usr lib libdl so
comp.windows.x	re online help motif widget d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes i am looking for online help motif widgets public domain or otherwise to run on a sun sparc i d be especially interested in help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc i know that some of the gui builders like galaxy come with online help widgets but i need to check into stand alone help widgets as well seeing as how we have not picked a gui tool yet anybody know of any widgets like this x resource issue thanh ma tma encore com
comp.windows.x	re any way to stop and application from re titling in article may colorado edu hoswell alumni cs colorado edu mike hoswell writes i m quite familiar with a variety of window title setting methods my question is is there any way via resources etc to stop an application s ability to re name it s own name iconname properties sorry that s a feature the icccm specifies how the app should set its title so the wm is obliged to do it if this bothers you complain to the app writer who cares if it s not nice to the application i want control write your own wm that doesn t support the icccm or write an program that you give a window id and a title the your program can set the windows title for the app and then if the app changes it your program switches it back again mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer i represent myself only ncar po box boulder co so i ve got that going for me which is nice think clearly carl schmidtmann faultline software group inc karo court cws faultline com apple decwrl gigo cws sunnyvale ca
comp.windows.x	gui builders for vms i am looking for gui builders uims s which run in a vms openvms environment i am interested in both motif tools and gui independent tools such as xvt my client also requires that the tool has been in production for at least months in the vms environment note that i have the list of tools from the faq but not the info on vms availability thanks mark d collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	xnlock xdm i am using xnlock as the screensaver for a pc based x server however after an interval of no activity my x session ends this does not happen when i use xscreensaver my screensave command is fired up from my xsession like this xautolock time locker xnlock corners cornerdelay my hypothesis is that xdm i use xdmcp to start my x session detects a period of inactivity from the server then terminates the session however for some reason this does not happen with xscreensaver is there a workaround i d prefer responses via e mail thanks economics is not for those who are atracted to real world problems which have simple and clear solutions for these individuals i recommend astrology hugo sonnenschein
comp.windows.x	detecting saving geometry changes hi i m trying to get my program to monitor resize position events so that when the program exits i can save the last known geometry in some sort of preferences file i am adding an event handler for structurenotify to the toplevelshell xtaddeventhandler toplevel structurenotifymask false configurecb mydata this works fine and my callback is called whenever the window is resized or repositioned using the window manager mwm however when i m just resizing the window using any resize handle on the window manager resize decoration the x and y are set to zero in the xevent passed to the event handler callback i m accessing the xconfigure structure like the x manual says xev xconfigure x xev xconfigure y the width and height memebers are correct when i reposition the window using the window manager the xevent s xconfigure structure contains all the correct x y width height member settings q anybody know why when just resizing the x and y are being set to zero q any other way to handle detecting and saving geometry changes i ve tried using xtgetvalues on the toplevel widget when exiting my application before destroying any widgets and all i get is garbage values for the x y width height resources thanks bob ross ross li loral com mr plow that s the name that name loral instrumentation san diego ca again is mr plow homer simpson
comp.windows.x	xkernel on sun has anyone built xkernel for s it works great on our s and i would just as soon kiss the entire sun architeture goodbye and reclaim a bunch of disk space email me direct i ll post a summary mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	re dump x window screen h j hong hjhong ev ev nctu edu tw wrote hi i m looking for a tool to dump a x window screen image any one can help me see xwd xpr even better grab xdump from ftp cs uwm edu it makes use of these programs as well but has a much nicer interface and can do more you can dump to postscript bitmaps etc mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	x terminal faq subject what is the current state of the world in x terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly to comp windows x a list of manufacturers and terminals it includes pricing information can somebody send me a copy of this faq thanks alot da
comp.windows.x	keycode wrong for xkeyreleasedevent i am writing a x based dosemu which requires xkeyreleasedevent i found the keycode of xkeyreleasedevent is wrong if i run the program on a linux host xfree with display set to the local linux and to the sun host x r the two keycodes from the two xservers are different of course the keycode of xkeypressedevent is o k can anybody verify this did i do anything wrong thanks edward der hua liu cs department national taiwan university taiwan dhliu solar csie ntu edu tw
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article gordons mon gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes in c tgoj j inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix if you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this is an x window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but it s broken on ow it does not handle multiple pages well if you don t have the proper postscript commands it will draw the entire document on the same page instead of pausing after each page i haven t tried ow yet though ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re imake rules problem under solaris dple lungta infores com david levine writes hey folks i m attempting to use imake to manage makefiles for a development effort and was curious to find out if anybody else is experiencing problems with any target that has subdirs generated by imake on solaris platforms for example make makefiles chokes in the very first subdirectory i e target subdirmakefiles not found you don t give the precise error message but i assume that the making of the target fails because make can t find the rules we ve seen this happen with sunos x make as well and aat this point i m not sure why it happens it seems to happen with large makefiles the entries near the end get lost small changes in the makefile will remedy this problem as it does in your example in the mit r distribution r sunos patch this can happen with the target makefiles in one of the doc directories at first i thought this was a bug with make on my sun but i built and used gnumake with the same results attached you ll find the first makefiles target rule from the generated makefile this is really weird are your really sure that you were using gnu make casper
comp.windows.x	somebody please help me hello i hope this is the right group to post this in i ve got a little problem i finally managed to get a real operating system linux as opposed to ms dos and i like it alot but when i try to run startx i get a strange response my monitor goes into graphics mode and i get this big white rectangle on the screen that s all nothing else now i ve collected almost every faq in the world to help me but either it s too confusing or i must be missing something my setup dx about mhz trident c svga w meg mb ram plenty of hd space any help is appreciated thanx
comp.windows.x	x shared libraries and replacing modules in them hi i m wonderring if it is possible to replace a single module as xkeybind o in a shared library as libx so in suns openwindows i tried to rtfm but i didn t get any wiser that way also can i do the same on an rs machine running if it is possible at all i know how to do it with real libraries ar i am trying to replace xlookupstring in the delivered libraries with another that does a few special things per per andersson ppan celsiustech se perand stacken kth se on free time managing networks and occasionally suns at but not speaking for celsiustech ab j rf lla sweden
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt brandon
comp.windows.x	re outline scalable fonts versus bitmap replicated scalable fonts after looking at the scaling code i realized the follwing my problem with the resolution x foints is due to an installation problem that the x server or font server will rescale the best font it can find to meet your requirements this means that if you server return a response like the following adobe helvetica medium o normal p iso you can ask for the follwogin adobe helvetica medium o normal p iso and it will generate it for you you should try to always use known pixel sizes bill jones
comp.windows.x	re c motif gcc silly messages thanks to everyone who mailed help unfortunately the end problem was a really stupid oversight on my behalf the code was perfect but it might help to add control c to my makefile anyway the mangled name was telling me it could nt locate the control constructor i just want to reaffirm what a valuable book this one is i m enjoying evry page
comp.windows.x	re x on dos or windows in article psg com mvalente draco lnec pt writes i m posting this request again since the last one had no title i m looking for x server software on dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but would like to be aware of other solutions namely public domain or shareware implementations i d also like to know in the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc if you have any experiences in this area please let me know c u by e mario valente try linux available on the internet
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken well that may be true however the man page for pageview for ow does not mention about dsc compliance in any event the point here is that if you try to display some ps files using pageview you will find out that it s not a practical tool v v v v v v v gordon t sasamori hc csic mcu design email gordons ai sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	including color pixmap xpm files in my application is there a portable and convenient way to use color picture files in the xpm format to define an x pixmap in a motif application any functions pointers tips etc would be most welcome saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	mswindows xwindows conversion hi all i ve heard of a commercial package named zink that could convert ms windows source code to xwindows source code c the only problem is the package isn t available in holland at least i can t find it anywhere is there another package preferrably free or shareware that can do the same thing and if so where can i find or buy it thanks in advance arjen
comp.windows.x	drawing networks graphs are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance o o o o o o o o o o just by giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation it would be nice if any node symbols could be used maybe even to insert widgets as nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations any information would be appreciated thanks in advance jorgen jorgen eriksson eua ericsson se
comp.windows.x	compiling ghostview under sun openwindows due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it peter
comp.windows.x	help needed callbacks actions and events i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window i want to connect this to a widget no problem so far i could use a callback function or an action to do this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while i want the application code sequence to be able to be interrupted by events then i want to handle the events and resume with processing the application code at the point it was interrupted it seems to me that this isn t possible but how can i give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed has anybody an idea please answer via e mail thanks in advance soenke soenke voss faculty of economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld de university of bielefeld w bielefeld germany the only difference between me and a madman is that i am not mad salvador dali
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in t dndinnmsd senator bedfellow mit edu steve mcmahon launchpad unc edu writes on fri may gmt me dude pcs com michael elbel said me as is emu won t work on bsd derived systems e g suns with me anything else than a csh there is a fix to this which is very me short remove one line of code i ll put this on export today it s more than that actually in the version on export one cannot just specify a posix tty behaviour the posix config files are incomplete without those of some specific platforms like suns and decs i looked twice at porting emu to linux but stopped short becuse of the tty part is there a cleaner version of emu that supports posix tty explicitly hmm depends on how you define clean jordan implemented the system dependent stuff in a way that you have basic implementations for call it operating system types then you go ahead and write a include file for your specific machine or operating system using the basic implementations since both jordan and i haven t encountered a os flavor yet that is fully posix we haven t gotten around to really implement and test a top level include file specifically for just posix the posix routines are used in the sun specific file tty sun i for example but here we also use some bsd stuff all in all it still is probably better to implement a include file for each and every operating system than ifdef ing in existing ones the type of mess that can result from that can clearly be seen in the xterm sources even if quite a bit of code gets copied almost unchanged a couple of times this only uses up some disk space since only the drivers actually included from the toplevel include file will be compiled into emu it shouldn t be hard to come up with a tty linux i file that fully relies on the posix stuff but unfortunately i don t have a linux system available to me so i can t do the port myself i would suggest you read the readme in term sysdep and if you have any problems or questions contact me and we could try to sort this out unfortunately we have to rely on help from the net on this part of emu since we just don t have access to that many different systems michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	creating your own colormap i e lookup table in x r hello below i have the copy of some source i am using to setup a user specified color map for x r v i am attempting to create user defined colors in terms of rgb color ranges the calls to xalloccolor prove ineffective variables are defined are as follows int i j k lut index color type min image max image color type image pixel value range last image start end jump lut unsigned long pixel double red green blue data structure used by color operations typedef struct unsigned long pixel unsigned short red green blue char flags do red do green do blue char pad xcolor xcolor rgbcolor hardwarecolor with color type defined as double red double green double blue what i need to know is how to set is it possible the values in hardwarecolor to work within the call to xalloccolor start red int min image red end red int max image red jump red int end red start red start green int min image green end green int max image green jump green int end green start green start blue int min image blue end blue int max image blue jump blue int end blue start blue lut index for i i i for j j j for k k k if i jump red lut lut index red start red else lut lut index red jump red i if j jump green lut lut index green start green else lut lut index green jump green j if k jump blue lut lut index blue start blue else lut lut index blue jump blue k hardwarecolor red short lut lut index red hardwarecolor green short lut lut index green hardwarecolor blue short lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index printf hw i d d d d pixel d n lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel status xalloccolor dpy colormap hardwarecolor printf hw i d d d d pixel d n lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel if status xsetforeground dpy gc hardwarecolor pixel xfillrectangle dpy win gc maxcolumn maxrow xflush dpy sleep printf d f f f at d n lut index lut lut index re lut lut index green lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index lut index thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this problem sincerely john f duggan john f duggan alias genghis khan engineering computer services internet duggan ecs umass edu univ of massachusetts amherst ma bitnet duggan umaecs
comp.windows.x	program to display gif files it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively if i could locate the specs for gif i don t suppose it would be too hard to write it myself but i have no idea where to even start looking for the spec well actually i do have an idea this newsgroup if the auto industry were like the computer industry a car would now cost would get miles to the gallon and at random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	svr xclients won t work under svr repost when i changed from svr to svr on my intel box i discovered that some of my svr xclients such as xload etc would no longer work they bomb out with the message error can t open display unix is this because they can t find the correct shared libraries they need to be recompiled or have i not used the correct options both systems use x r thanks jack
comp.windows.x	re mac x and sun openwindows benj ossa hq nasa gov benjamin jones writes i ve run into a bit of a snag while trying to get mac x up and running and would appreciate any responses from anyone who may have seen this problem on my local network i have a number of macs suns and sgi machines i have installed macx mactcp on all of the macintoshes and can run xclients on the sgi machines all the live long day the problem is when i try to run an xclient on any sun i setup the command in macx then execute it nothing happens i don t even get any command output now i thought it might be a routing issue but i can run remote xclients on the suns from my sgi machines as well as vice versa i can also run remote xclients on sgi machines that are not on my local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns as well i tried to send this as private mail but mail to benj ossa hq nasa gov was rejected so here it is here is an extract from the readme file that comes with macx users of remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear to do nothing and there is no output from the sun machine this is due to a feature of the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known to the sun s network address etc hosts or nis hosts database to successfully use remote commands with a sunos based machine there must be an entry in the network address database for the macintosh which is running macx stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	re drawing networks graphs in article may eua ericsson se tvtjet eua ericsson se jorgen eriksson writes are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance pretty picture deleted just by giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation it would be nice if any node symbols could be used maybe even to insert widgets as nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations check out the xmgraph library in the following location iworks ecn uiowa edu comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z skip montanaro crd ge com
comp.windows.x	internationalization hi is there anybody has some example programs about using the internationalization features in x r such as a small x program just to show chinese texts in wondows menu bar or icons thanks in advance michael c hung
comp.windows.x	dvi viewers i need some help in tracking down a dvi viewer for x i have xdvi but we have not got the x libraries and includes installed so i is there a way around this as we are trying to avoid installing the stuff space is at a premium ii would someone be prepared to make the binaries available we have a hp and a hp thanks for any help michael carley dept of mech engineering tcd
comp.windows.x	summary how to make a window s input be all caps thanks to bruce barnett who recommended xvttool and bernward averwald and liam quin who recommended modifying xdefaults to get the desired behavior for a class of xterms in xvttool simply create a key file that looks like a a b b c c and specify said key file on the command line this will translate any input into any other in my case lo case to up case works great and you get a customizable button pad on the right or left side to use an xterm solution add to your xdefaults capxterm vt translations override key a string a n or capxterm vt translations override n key a insert string a n key b insert string b n and invoke as xterm name capxterm thanks loads kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	re program to display gif files john chambers jc minya uucp wrote it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture xv
comp.windows.x	looking for article i am urgently looking for the following article but i can t seem to find it anywhere here the multi threaded x server john allen smith the x resource issue pp winter if anyone can tell me where to find it it will be much appreciated h f sadie departement of computer science university of stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
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comp.windows.x	faq s could someone repost the faqs for this group please thanks ladislas
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comp.windows.x	re colors and x windows aicons excerpts from netnews comp windows x may re colors and x windows a john cwikla morrison wri the problem is that we need solutions for applications now and although i would love to have most of the things mentioned here somebody has to write it what i d like to see is this scenario each widget view whatever describes it s colors via a palette palettes can be shared and they only contain descriptive information they are not directly tied to the object that uses them palettes are held in the server a palette can accomadate up to the number of hardware color cells of color descriptors when the input focus is in a particular widget that widget has access to all of the colors that are described in its associated palette all other widgets transiently get the closest approximation that can be generated by a union of the colors from the current palette and any free colors that are left over a widget specifies a color for imaging by providing an index pixel into its associated palette the bold part above is hard and would need to be done in the server
comp.windows.x	xterm slave mode i am tunning into this newgroup after a long time could somebody tell me what the slave mode in the xterm is and what can it be used for any info where i can get more info or examples i want to use a bunch of xterms and send the input from one application to these xterms and get the output on the xterms please email me any info thanks lourdu
comp.windows.x	motif and ow compiling xcoral i ve built xcoral on my system sunos x r motif ow and it builds fine but when i run it any child windows that xcoral opens locks the mouse into the window area doesn t accept any input from the mouse needless to say this is a pain in the ass as i have to go find an empty terminal to login and kill xcoral is this a problem with openwindows or motif is there a patch bob campbell crayons can take you where no system manager starship can go hao ncar guinan rsc hao ucar edu sttng disclaimer my views are in no way connected to my employer a closed mouth gathers no feet unknown it only requires a little thought and a little work don hicks managing editor amazing computing
comp.windows.x	re help needed callbacks actions and events i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window i want to connect this to a widget no problem so far i could use a callback function or an action to do this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while i want the application code sequence to be able to be interrupted by events then i want to handle the events and resume with processing the application code at the point it was interrupted it seems to me that this isn t possible but how can i give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed use a workproc see xtappaddworkproc xt you should split your drawing routnie up into small chunks this is the hard part then in the callback that starts the drawing you call xtappaddworkproc to call your workproc the first time your workproc should be a function that returns a boolean true when you are finished and false when you want to keep processing if you return false the workproc is automatically re installed note that this method is better that using a time out loop since events get processed in a more precedence oriented manner if you are using the same ada bindings i am however you are hosed and should look into xtappaddtimeout xt joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	any free x servers for pcs does anyone know of any free x servers for pcs preferably that run under ms windows thanks peter buttuls university of alberta edmonton canada e mail userpib mts ucs ualberta ca
comp.windows.x	x shared libraries and replacing modules in them i know nothing about sun s but replacing pieces of libraries shared or not is straight forward on rs s all releases extract the appropriate pierce with ar rebind the o and replace with ar see info for details
comp.windows.x	makedepend problem hi netters we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process if clause in c preprocessor statements it evaluates everything to true no matter what the conditionals are for example makedepend chokes on one of x include files as distributed by sun namely xos h if defined sunos defined stdc include string h define index strchr define rindex strrchr else bsd stdc include strings h endif sunos stdc here makedepend evaluates both if and corresponding else statements to true and tries to open the file strings h which doesn t exist under solaris we also have a lot of if statements in some of our legacy code we got and built makedepend off the net it didn t fix the problem in all fairness it should be noted that makdepend man page sun s distribution mentions this problem bugs if you do not have the source for cpp the berkeley c preprocessor then makedepend will be compiled in such a way that all if directives will evaluate to true regardless of their actual value this may cause the wrong include directives to be evaluated makedepend should simply have its own parser written for if expressions has anybody come up with some solution fix to makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing to share it with us since we often experience delays in our newsfeed please reply directly to my e mail address i ll post a summary thanks in advance michael turok information resources inc e mail mlt blues infores com fifth avenue voice ext waltham ma usa fax
comp.windows.x	key event window hi there do someone of you have a program for sending a key event to another window but it must appear in that window i have used xsendevent tar package but it does not do that for example if i get a program executing bin sh read something echo something and if i send the key event keypress a keyrelease a to that window then i will get something a thanks in advance gabriel iban ez c gibanez dcc uchile cl
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition in article may vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows jesse w asher yes xhibition is for the x window system the x window system conference remains the largest and most complete conference devoted to x nineteen full and half day tutorials and thirty six technical sessions over three days provide huge amounts of information for x application developers add vendor exhibits and a product presentation track to provide information on what folks can purchase today and you have a complete show focused on x speakers at xhibition include bob schiefler lu abel mark ackerman paul asente doug blewett donna converse jim fulton oliver jones keith packard ralph swick doug young and many others xhibition is growing fortunately for us and we have added some additional conferences surveys that we have given have indicated additional topics of interest these include object oriented technologies such as the object management group s orb and corba c as it applies to x client server technologies such as dce threads databases object oriented and relational and not surprisingly when you look at the audience windows nt with the bulk of the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for in house or custom use a new bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated with ms windows on so many desktops and the price of computing power dropping its successor needs to be evaluated as corporations begin to look at nt so must their developers and suppliers the mission of the xhibition technical conferences is to provide information to the application developer and to the technology planner the nt conference at xhibition is designed to do just that we worked with microsoft to provide the only conference this year specifically designed to show x and unix developers the capabilities of windows and nt if you aren t sure that nt has what you need for your application development or systems deployment this is the place to find out ask the folks from microsoft get them to show you what you need conference attendees will receive nt software development kits to bang on evaluate and generally to see for yourself i hope this doesn t sound like an nt commercial it should sound like an xhibition commercial i just want to reiterate that the xhibition audience is growing and xhibition is growing along with it the industry is a confusing place at the moment with unix cose nt dce corba and all of the other acronyms sprouting up xhibition can help sort out the confusion aub harden technical program manager harden ics com x h i b i t i o n the conference and trade show for corporate software development broadway cambridge ma windows on distributed computing june san jose ca xhibit ics com uunet ics com xhibit voice fax presented by integrated computer solutions inc
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt most dos x servers are terribly slow to use in my experience and no i guess performance would be pretty bad i believe the discussion is valid for an x server on a decent workstation the eno the trouble with new age janet da uk ac city music is that there s no eno uk ac city cs evil in it brian eno us da city ac uk cunyvm cuny edu
comp.windows.x	xdm x emul error when attempting to connect to an sgi indigo from a pc clone using a commercial x windows emulation package the x package hangs in a pre login x screen mode the login box won t display using the package in telnet mode i can logon to the sgi and run any none graphic type things on the pc i get an error read error on socket raw socket error on the sgi in xdm errors i get a termination error when i kill the stalled screen on the pc on the sgi in syslog date time sgi xdm hung in xopendisplay remote aborting server open failed for remote giving up i have all access control disabled i believe syslog message confirms this when i login on the sgi i believe i have the sgi set up properly as described in the x adm book by o rielly the x emul package tech support hasn t been able to solve the problem so what i m looking for is some suggestions on where to look for problems and possible tests to run to narrow down the questions thanks webster ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition harden skate ics com aub harden writes in article may vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows jesse w asher i was wondering this myself and not surprisingly when you look at the audience windows nt with the bulk of the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for in house or custom use a new bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated with ms windows on so many desktops and the price of computing power dropping its successor needs to be evaluated as corporations begin to look at nt so must their developers and suppliers what you need conference attendees will receive nt software development kits to bang on evaluate and generally to see for yourself i hope this doesn t sound like an nt commercial it should sound like an xhibition commercial unfortunately it does i don t agree with the logic of nt at an x windows conference perhaps some good will come of it but the two are so dissimilar and the nt marketing stuff is so large in the xhibition adds that i was coming to a similar conclusion as jesse mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	what is a client s display variable set to is there an easy ie via shell commands way to tell what the display environment variable is for any given client process sometimes i can get what i want by typing ps axe if a the client was invoked with a display argument or b display is one of the first few variables defined in the environment actually i ve never seen b but it s there to illustrate the type of thing i m looking for ultimately i wish to determine the number of displays that are simultaneously running a given x application my system sunos sun c thanks for any help ed posnak harris space systems corporation eposnak core hssc ksc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	multi bytes fonts i am wondering how to change the english fonts in an existed api to some multi bytes fonts such as chinese japanese someone told me x r supports some internationalization features but i cannot find any examples for my need is there anybody has done some similar jobs by the way all the english fonts should be replace by chinese or japanese fonts that means in windows menubar button that will be great if someone can share us what you have done thanks in advance m c hung
comp.windows.x	help w x r p w sun cg framebuffer xsun won t come up in color w this framebuffer i am trying to use xkernel on some of these s i have a freshly built statically linkes copy of xsun that works just fine on cg cg bw type of framebuffers but on the that have this type of frame buffer all i get is mono cgtwo at vme d x vec xa cgtwo sun color board fast read here is what i ve tried removing all the other dev cg dev bw and dev fb and then selectivly recreating dev cgtwo xsun comes up mono recreating dev fb comes up mono i ve tried xsun xsun dev dev cgtwo ps xnews will come up in color but it s not statically linked and the dynamically linked xsun comes up in mono also pps xsun was compiled on w gcc on a system running and the is also running thanks n advance the highway is made out of lime jello and my honda is a barbequeued oyster yum henry d reynolds hdr ross com or hdr nidhog cactus org fone x ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin tx
comp.windows.x	querying xdm to manage a remote display how under linux xfree we have suns running sunos and openwindows x r we have used xvision on a pc setup to broadcast query to the unix xdm servers and allow a user to choose a unix client in which to login xdm will then manage that display i would like to do the same thing with xfree running under linux but i don t know how i don t want to hardwire the unix xdm to manage the pc displays as the pc s are not always running linux let alone xfree i would like the same setup as provided by xvision can anybody help thanks dr roberto togneri phone centre for intelligent information processing systems dept of electrical electronic engineering the university of western australia fax v nedlands wa australia email robert swanee ee uwa edu au
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i can also live with a utility that converts postscript to plain text perferably retaining page counts so that i know how many pages the original document contains well i know of one hack to sort of do this conversion first get ghostscript and check out the gs asc ps file that comes with it it prints out some information about where each text string goes on the page and maintains page counts i ve written a little c program to massage the output of gs dnodisplay gs asc ps somewhat so that you can get all the ascii strings in the document no guarantees that it won t break up words sentences though i ve used it with varying degrees of success anyways try this out it may do what you want massager a filter for use with gs does crude postscript ascii conversion usage cat file ps gs dnodisplay gs asc ps massager i print a ctrl l after each new page put the following source into massager c and compile it include stdio h include string h main char line p while fgets line sizeof line stdin null if line p printf f n else if line s line if p strrchr line null continue p if p strchr line null continue for p p p if p p p putchar p putchar n return david wagner dawagner princeton edu
comp.windows.x	wanted an interactive gui builder for x motif hi there i m looking for tools that can make x programming easy i would like to have a tool that will enable to create x motif gui interactivly currently i m working on a sgi with forms a package that enables to create gui with no coding at all but the callbacks any help will be appreciated thanks gabi
comp.windows.x	how to program about wm protocols wm delete window in olit hi all i study about wm delete window atom in open look i study the book unix desktop guide to open look i run the example of chapter but it is not the result described as book s figure dose anyone read the book or run the example winprop c what is the problem i am curious about wm delete window programming anyone help me thanks in advance for any help iop
comp.windows.x	please this discussion on viewing ps files undex x seems rather interesting but i fail to understand the reason it is not contained in at most newsgroups i am subscribed to comp text interleaf and i could care less about ps viewing under x i am sure that members of this group interested in the topic can followup by looking at other newsgroups could you please remove the comp text interleaf from your distribution just as a nettish sort of courtesy best regards leo j irakliotis irakliot longs lance colostate edu electrical engineering l irakliotis ieee org colorado state u optical computing lab
comp.windows.x	x r on ibm rs how are you everybody i installed x r on our ibm rs workstation os version is aix there was no problem in installation but there was a problem in invoking xinit when i invoke xinit there is a error message as follows giving up xinit unable to connect to x server xinit no such process errno server error i m a navice so i don t know the reason why i get this message please help me i am waiting for your help thanks for reading this mail park jang ho jhpark kdb snu ac kr
comp.windows.x	xfig with open look problem i m a solaris user with a classic workstation i have compiled xfig version with dopenwin flag to use it with openwindows but when i run it the program runs and runs and runs minutes and never is ready to work with it the labels are not completed and i can t push any button i have no problem if i does not run the openwindows but x any solution thanks in advance and excuse for my english pedro antonio acebes bayon e mail pacebes cozuelos tid es x adress c es admd mensatex prmd iris o rediris ou relay dd rfc pacebes a cozuelos tid es
comp.windows.x	multi byte fonts i am wondering how to change the english fonts in an existed api to some multi bytes fonts such as chinese japanese someone told me x r supports some internationalization features but i cannot find any examples for my need is there anybody has done some similar jobs by the way all the english fonts should be replace by chinese or japanese fonts that means in windows menubar button that will be great if someone can share us what you have done thanks in advance m c hung
comp.windows.x	x r on ibm rs yes we have the same problem with xinit the problems seems to come from the fact that the xopendisplay fails if we try on our machine named godzilla setenv display godzilla xibm xterm it works fine but the following will not work setenv display unix xibm xterm did we set a configuration option incorrectly thank you for any assistance you can offer herb hasler herb iiasa ac at international institute for applied systems anaylsis iiasa a laxemburg austria ext
comp.windows.x	x windows on ms dos pc where s the faq i need to know where i can get a faq on xwindows for ms dos machines the usual faq just gave me a name of a file called xservers nonunix txt z which i cannot find anywhere i need to do x windows programming on a msdos pc does anyone know how to go about doing it
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt so what i m running emu on a mhz box i cannot make out any difference in performance whether the cursor is set to blinking or not if you think about it a bit a cycle of ms is a hell a lot of time for even the slowest pc since you would of course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application is active anyway to repeat it a blinking text cursor costs almost nothing in performance it just needs some thought when designing the xterm software michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	looking for article i am urgently looking for the following article can i cannot find it anywhere in our local libraries john allen smith the multi threaded x server the x resource issue pp winter if anyone can tell me where i can find it i will much appreciate it h f sadie departement of computer science university of stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
comp.windows.x	open look where where can i obtain a copy of the open look widgets is it obtainable on the net somewhere or do i need to order a copy if so how thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	re mac x and sun openwindows in article t o mrd ux cso uiuc edu kerr ux cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes benj ossa hq nasa gov benjamin jones writes i ve run into a bit of a snag while trying to get mac x up and running and would appreciate stuff deleted are not on my local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns as well i tried to send this as private mail but mail to benj ossa hq nasa gov was rejected so here it is same here here is an extract from the readme file that comes with macx users of remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear to do nothing and there is no output from the sun machine this is due to a feature of the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known to the sun s network address etc hosts or nis hosts database to successfully use remote commands with a sunos based machine there must be an entry in the network address database for the macintosh which is running macx i received similar information advice about what appears to be the same problem benjamin has and i still have nis has all the information about the macs i even put explicit entries in etc hosts to no avail monitoring with snoop on my classic the initial rexec packet is sent to the the sun which sends something to the correct mac but nothing appears at the mac rexecd is number one suspect but it s more suble than the readme suggests and i haven t yet looked into it further stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu callum downie brunel ac uk faculty of technology brunel university uxbridge ub ph uk x die meisten saetze und fragen welche ueber philosophische dinge geschrieben worden sind sind nicht falsch sondern unsinnig wovon man nicht sprechen kann darueber muss man schweigen
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article gordons mon sps mot com gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken well that may be true however the man page for pageview for ow does not mention about dsc compliance in any event the point here is that if you try to display some ps files using pageview you will find out that it s not a practical tool it is true that the man page for pageview does not say that the files need to be dsc compliant that is the fault of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing at sun i was informed by a sun employee that the pageview program does require dsc compliant postscript there was the possibility that it was going to be changed so that if the file wasn t dsc compliant that it would stop at each showpage i believe that this method would preclude being able to go backwards and forwards through the file i e you could only go forward to the next showpage this isn t in ow pageview but maybe it is in the solaris x version of ow ow in any event i find pageview extremely useful since all of the postscript that i produce is dsc compliant i don t have any problems harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	moving curosr with keyboard hi xperts how can i move the cursor with the keyboard i e cursor keys if no mouse is available any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re fitting straight line or curve to data points in article warda land vf ge com andrew ward writes i am looking for a graphing program that will fit my data to a straight line any program that estimates a closest fit curve or gives any statistics would be helpful many spreadsheets do regression analysis the topic is also well covered in most undergraduate statistic books cubic splines are usually well covered in any undergraduate computer science numerical analysis text i am sure ge mm has a well stocked library i have never used mathematica but i would be surprised if it could not do a spline edmond l meinfelder programmer virtual guy my aardvark is bigger anon hack for hire
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm me dude pcs com michael elbel writes in may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt so what i m running emu on a mhz box i cannot make out any difference in performance whether the cursor is set to blinking or not if you think about it a bit a cycle of ms is a hell a lot of time for even the slowest pc since you would of course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application is active anyway to repeat it a blinking text cursor costs almost nothing in performance it just needs some thought when designing the xterm software you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste i m not picking on you just people keep forgetting that there is a lot of life out there besides distributed or singleuser workstations mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition jessea u me vp com jesse w asher wrote i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows i had exactly the same feeling i was depressed if you ever programmed windows and x you d be depressed if an x conference touted its tutorials to show you how to convert from x to windows api sort of like how to convert your c classes to the new improved c what happened dan greening software transformation saratoga sunnyvale rd greening sti com x cupertino ca
comp.windows.x	cga for windows hi i m looking for some assistance in locating information on how to run win on a cga monitor the setup suggests you look at the manual but the guy i m helping is part of a large office and computer assistance must be booked in advance therefore he cant get windows onto his cga system thanx in anticipation neil
comp.windows.x	graphics text with x are there any graphics texts with examples demos projects directly in x the last time i taught the course i used a popular graphics text that uses its own graphics package with implementations available for x mac pc the problem was that after the course the students were good at programming in the artificial package but frustrated that they couldn t really use their skill for other work ken mandelberg km mathcs emory edu preferred emory university rutgers gatech emory km uucp dept of math and cs km emory bitnet non domain bitnet atlanta ga phone voice fax
comp.windows.x	x professional organization has anyone ever heard of the x professional organization is anyone a member is the membership worth the or so that they charge tim bomgardner
comp.windows.x	q whats vendorshellwidgetclass we tried to compile an old x r motif program with x and a newer version of motif but we newer succeed any ideas cc o xtrack new main o libxtrack a xutils libxutils a pmshort libpmshort a matrix libmatrix a otte lib otte a verb lib verb a tools newmotif lib libmrm a tools newmotif lib libxm a l tools x r lib lxaw lxmu lxt lx ll lm lxext cxm a lxaw lxmu lxt lx ll lm lxext l usr cc sun lc ld tools x r lib libxaw sa sharedlib o vendorshellwidgetclass multiply defined error code make fatal error command failed for target xtrack thanks fvd fvd markus weber fvd ma ws mathematik uni karlsruhe de sometimes there s nothing to feel
comp.windows.x	starting x windows as soon as i am logged into linux i type xinit setting tcp so linger protocol not available no siocgifconf xfree version x window system protocol version revision vendor release configured drivers vga colout svga et et pvga gvga ati tvga c tgva using vt number mouse type mouse systems device dev mouse baudrate font path set to usr lib x fonts type usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts bitstream usr lib x fonts misc vga et mem ok numclocks vga clocks vga clocks vga too little memory for virtual resolution a configured device found but display modes could not be resolved fatal server error no screens found giving up xinit interrupted system call errno unable to connect to x server xinit no such process errno server error why am i getting these messages when i type in xinit is there a configuration file for x windows like config sys for msdos how do i start the x session from shell subbarao chitturi schit ctp com
comp.windows.x	re makedepend problem in article cronos metaphor com mlt blues infores com michael turok writes we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process if clause in c preprocessor statements it evaluates everything to true no matter what the conditionals are has anybody come up with some solution fix to makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing to share it with us rewrite makedepend to use cc m or gcc m or gcc mm which is the one i prefer since system headers don t change that often for generating the actual dependencies you ll still need to write the parts that edit the actual makefile i think there s a program in the berkeley distributions called mkdep that will do essentially this vivek khera gradual student systems guy department of computer science internet khera cs duke edu box mime mail accepted durham nc
comp.windows.x	re makedepend problem we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process i m most of the way through adding a grammar for parsing the if expressions i don t know when i ll be able to get back to it you re welcome to what i have so far i haven t looked at other versions of makedepend which may solve the problem more elegantly david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition well i m glad that there s plenty of nt stuff at xhibition not because i want to use it instead of x but because i want to find out what the chances are that some time in the future i may not have any choice this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re cga for windows sat eng tridom com stephen thomas writes in article af uniwa uwa edu au ngolding tartarus uwa edu au neil golding writes i m looking for some assistance in locating information on how to run win on a cga monitor the cga driver for windows works fine with win oh no oh no they ve taken over comp windows misc and now they re coming for us berry berry kercheval kerch parc xerox com
comp.windows.x	re xquerytree xgrabserver and robustness in article may viewlogic com josh viewlogic com josh marantz writes i have an application that wants to walk the server window hierarchy looking for a window with a specific property i think what happens is that xquerytree gives me an array of n children but by the time i get to the nth child window it has been destroyed then i get a badwindow error and my application exits how can i make this robust i ve thought of the following set up an x error handler that longjmps back to where i made the offending call is this safe do i have to longjmp or can i just return badwindow is an x protocol error if you write a custom error handler which does not do exit the error handler will return and let your program carry on so using a xseterrorhandler is the way to go but never mind the longjmp register for destroynotify on all the windows returned from xquerytree too hard
comp.windows.x	problems with characters above hi all i ve read the faq i ve fiddled around but i am still having problems getting my poor old hp to let me input display characters above i have the following in my xdefaults xterm font adobe courier bold r normal m iso so i believe that i have the correct font selected to use in xterm i have not set my lc ctype environment variable because whatever i put it it tells me that that locale is not supported apparently we have no additional locales defined or at least lib locale doesn t exist i can get some of the characters above to print out but they are not where i d expect them for example alt v does not produce a u umlaut this leads me to believe that the fault lies with the stty settings which are as follows speed baud line susp undef dsusp undef intr c quit erase h kill k swtch eof d eol min time stop s start q parenb parodd cs cstopb hupcl cread clocal loblk crts ignbrk brkint ignpar parmrk inpck istrip inlcr igncr icrnl iuclc ixon ixany ixoff ienqak isig icanon iexten xcase echo echoe echok echonl noflsh opost olcuc onlcr ocrnl onocr onlret ofill ofdel tostop anyway i ve struggled with this off and on for a couple of weeks and any help anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated thanks brendan
comp.windows.x	windows motif tools summary i posted this may th i am looking for info on products that can take windows source on a unix box such as sparc and produce a motif executable another requirement is that mfc should be supported i already know of wind u by bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin by mainsoft are there any others i will post a summary if it s wanted i got a few requests asking for a summary so i ll attempt one here here s the ones i know of wind u bristol technologies hunter sdk hunter systems mainwin mainsoft libwxm visual solutions hunter the company is going through some big changes i expect to eventually see the hunter sdk pop up with a new name at the moment it is difficult to get phone calls returned and otherwise obtain info hopefully they will post something about themselves once things settle down visual solutions libwxm is a product that i just heard about they don t yet support mdi or mfc libwxm was used to port vissim a mathematical modeling package does native motif widgets like wind u from bristol contact carrie lemieux at for more info she s very helpful mainsoft this translates windows source to a unix executable that can switch off between a windows or quasi motif look and feel at runtime they skip the xt and xm motif x toolkit levels and go straight to xlib they don t yet support mfc they re at bristol this company that seems to be on the right track wind u uses xlib xt xm to give a real motif app they seem to be doing the most work in trying to support things like dde common dialogs and more on the horizon my contact there is knowledgeable responds to my email and wrote an example program for me showing how to obtain x widgets from windows handles they re at or you can email info bristol com dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith autodesk sausalito california x disclaimer accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	colorizing motif widgets using resource file i posted this question about colorizing motif widgets i got it working fine there was one bug in my xdefault file it should work fine in normal case thanks samir spatel cs tamu edu
comp.windows.x	wanted an interactive gui builder for x motif hi there i m looking for tools that can make x programming easy i would like to have a tool that will enable to create x motif gui interactivly currently i m working on a sgi with forms a package that enables to create gui with no coding at all but the callbacks any help will be appreciated thanks gabi gabi zodik ee room ph o o technion haifa israel interest mapping problem c e mail gabi techunix technion ac il
comp.windows.x	re hpgl to anything converter wanted in comp windows x doug happy vf ge com doug hughes writes i ve found an hpgl viewer for x and a converter from hpgl to postscript does anybody have anything that allows you to convert from anything into hpgl i m desperately in need of something like this hpgl does not support raster primitives so a formatter would have to punt on most popular image formats this probably explains the lack of translators out there what do you need to plot greg hughes gmh fc hp com
comp.windows.x	re compiling ghostview under sun openwindows in article c z a r curia ucc ie pflynn curia ucc ie peter flynn writes due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it sounds like you didn t load the support for those libraries when ow was loaded the xaw support was missing from ow but added in harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re program to display gif files in article minya uucp jc minya uucp john chambers writes it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively if i could locate the specs for gif i don t suppose it would be too hard to write it myself but i have no idea where to even start looking for the spec well actually i do have an idea this newsgroup get xv version it reads displays manipulates many different formats harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re problem with r release in article mcgary may mojo intellection com mcgary intellection com mike mcgary writes in article sr klinnauq news u washington edu pramod stein u washington edu pramod mahadev writes ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass i use lxaw lxmu lxext lx lxt not in this order but in a proper order i am wondering if there has to be some changes in my link libraries or should i include some more libraries any help in this matter will be very useful and highly appreciated we get this too if you put bstatic into your options it goes away things seem to run ok without it must not be called very often from the faq subject what is this link problem with libxmu on sunos in sunos sun fixed a shared library bug in ld which conflicts with the way x builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols notably to be undefined when building some x clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears to work to solve the problem if you are using openwindows x r based xt please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch i d description x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com a source patch for use with the mit x r libraries was developed by conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com it retrofits into r some fixes made in r to get around this problem the patch is on export in contrib x r sunos patch version z conrad kimball client server tech services boeing computer services cek sdc cs boeing com p o box ms a seattle wa
comp.windows.x	re ideas on xterm paste irritation in article eillihca grizzle stanford edu eillihca drizzle stanford edu achille hui the day dreamer writes read the xterm s manual pages for more informations about the avaliable actions of xterm read the faq and get a good book on customizing your x applications okay i will byte could someone provide more info on a good book on customizing your x applicaitons i am in search of one which does not expect the reader to have the x source code memorized or even available online s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.windows.x	resources and cpp help hi i am running x r on an ibm rs aix and x r on a sun sunos since i run x on both colour and black white displays i need different values for the same resource so i want to use ifdef color in my application defaults files however cpp is only invoked by xrdb and not when the resources are loaded on demand is there a proper solution to this so far the only proper solution i ve come to think of is to create different files in my app defaults say xterm and xterm color and set my xfilesearchpath to either home t n or home t n color but that does not always seem to work e g executing a remote shell command without reading the cshrc does not set xfilesearchpath furthermore i thought of using include xterm in xterm color however for resources in xterm that i want to override in xterm color things are different on both machines on a sun the first found resource is used i e the one from xterm the b w one while on an rs the last found value is used i e the one from xterm color what can i do about it i have one last question for the specification of xfilesearchpath i can use t n c and s t stands for app defaults n for the resource class but what do c and s stand for thanks in advance for replying marcel x drs marcel wijkstra aio visualization wijkstra fwi uva nl x faculty of mathematics and computer science ph x university of amsterdam the netherlands fx life stinks fortunately i ve got a cold
comp.windows.x	axe hp ux problem i ve been happy with axe under linux now i wanted to use it under hp ux too however my attempts have ended in core dumps this far bus error has anybody else been more successful jim wight s install file does say there have been problems with hp s data axe hp ux x r or x r doesn t seem to matter shared libs hp thanks in advance sakari aaltonen linux is an ftp able unix clone for pc s sakaria vipunen hut fi boggles my mind it does
comp.windows.x	looking for a file manager under twm hi out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes i m looking for a x file manager which can be driven under twm somebody told me last night there is one under openwindows and there certainly is one under ms windows but i d like an x one you know with icon s click and drag directory structures shown in a graphic layout a paper basket etc anybody got an idea please reply thso thorsten sommer better known as chiquita denn nur chiquita ist banane e mail sommer ips cs tu bs de transform and roll out bigtruck transformers
comp.windows.x	how xcreateregion works hi could someone explain to me what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion do or to suggest a ftp site where i can find programs using these functions ps the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis ln doc ic ac uk imperial college london uk dept of computing
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition mark mark a davis mark taylor uucp writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes mark we are the ones in control of what we use it is those who mark follow like blind sheep which cause the markets to skew i m sure mark there will be enough paid market hipe nt conferences without it mark needing to be in what was once a conference for open windowing mark enviroments i know that if i were planning to go i would cancel mark not because i have my eyes closed but because nt does not belong mark at such a conference i would however like to go to a closed mark environment nt conference to see the product because i am curious mark i doubt however based on the objective opinions of those i trust mark that i would be impressed why do many people believe that xhibition is one of the paid market hype nt conferences as you put it i for one am going because i too am curious about the technology i think this is a great chance to learn about nt mainly because it will be presented in x s home turf i believe that the attendees will mostly have x backgrounds biases thus i expect that the nt presentations will face a tough audience i can be there in person to judge for myself whether or not nt is what it is hyped to be this is as closely as i can get to in evaluating the nt technology without actually using it myself which i don t have the time to do if nt turns out to be a vapor technology and i get bored there will be many other interesting tutorials presentations that i won t have to waste my time in california just my thoughts ik su yoo rrc f x ik leis bellcore com
comp.windows.x	re mysterious xdm files x disclaimer all views are my own unless expicitly stated otherwise in may csi jpl nasa gov mwette csi jpl nasa gov matt wette writes i m getting lots of files in usr lib x xdm of the form abert a i m running xdm anybody know what these are and better yet how to move them i e what resource can i change to make them appear somewhere else that are the authorisation files for the server depending on what type of key your x supports they contain magic cookies des based authentication or sun des authentication the place is defined with the displaymanager authdir other things like the file name can be changed as well see xdm manual pages peter brouwer digital equipment enterprise net pb idca tds philips nl integration industry standard systems phone ext dept systems enginering bld v b fax ext p o box ae apeldoorn the netherlands
comp.windows.x	integration of hp a keyboard into sco odt sco odt allows to adapt the x server to any non standard at keyboard using the xkeyboard configuration compiler xsconfig sco provides some configuration files in usr lib x xsconfig kbd e g for siemens wx question is there anywhere a configuration file for the hp a keyboard available i am especially interested in using the hp specific keys such as insertline menu thanks ron
comp.windows.x	re how xcreateregion works in article td ininnl m finch doc ic ac uk ln doc ic ac uk leonidas nikidis writes hi could someone explain to me what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion do or to suggest a ftp site where i can find programs using these functions ps the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis ln doc ic ac uk imperial college london uk dept of computing i use those routines in a widget which only redraws exposed areas here s a small piece of code that uses those routines static void redisplay pw ev region xtpmanagerwidget pw xexposeevent ev region region pp exposure region is an xregion xtpmanagerpart pp pw plotter pp exposure region xcreateregion region is passed via an expose event if region null if ev send event synthetic event sent by widget it wants a full redraw exporect x pw core x exporect y pw core y exporect width pw core width exporect height pw core height else exporect x ev x exporect y ev y exporect width ev width exporect height ev height stuff deleted region now contains the exposure region xunionrectwithregion exporect pp exposure region pp exposure region else xunionregion region pp exposure region pp exposure region stuff deleted we need to clip on expose region for redrawing the grid xsetregion xtdisplayofobject pw pp plotarea gc pp exposure region stuff deleted check to see if child is exposed if xrectinregion pw plotter exposure region child core x child core y child core width child core height so i build up a region of exposures so that when i service my container widget redraw of rectobj children i only redraw what need to be redrawn it works for me hope this helps you brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re looking for a file manager under twm in article may ips cs tu bs de sommer ips cs tu bs de thorsten sommer writes hi out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes i m looking for a x file manager which can be driven under twm somebody told me last night there is one under openwindows and there certainly is one under ms windows but i d like an x one you know with icon s click and drag directory structures shown in a graphic layout a paper basket etc anybody got an idea i ve recently joined the motif world so i d like a similar tool for motif i ve bene used to the openwin one in the past and miss it cheers m a r c marc cr bouron desisco ltd harefield place the drive marc bouron ime mts dec com uxbridge middlesex ub aq
comp.windows.x	where can i find a list of toolkit options i ve just started messing with x windows under linux and i ve run into this toolkit options thing in the man pages of a number of x clients where can i get a list of these options is this only an xview thing if so would some kind soul show me how to set it up under linux rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm barmar think com barry margolin writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second this uses under k bytes second or about of the bandwidth of ethernet a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem but a couple dozen should be fine granted it s nothing to loose sleep over but this is ethernet s tragic flaw the more activity especially lots of tiny activity the more collisions happen and the performance gets exponentially worse i am just now opposing any kind of waste of bandwidth under ethernet although in a polling system it would not be so bad mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	eventhandlers on xmpushbuttons help i ve got an applications with a series of pushbuttons across the top a toolbar i wanted to add eventhandlers to these pushbuttons on enterwindowmask and leavewindowmask so that i can put up some descriptive text about the function of each pushbutton as the pointer crosses over it i ve done this fine but i ve turned up the following problem when the pushbuttons are sensitive i get callbacks on both of the above events but when they are not sensitive i only get callbacks on leavewindow events this seems odd i would expect this to be an all or nothing type of thing is this a bug if not can someone explain this behavior thanks mark
comp.windows.x	re gui builders for vms in article trident datasys swri edu mark trident datasys swri edu mark d collier writes i am looking for gui builders uims s which run in a vms openvms environment i am interested in both motif tools and gui independent tools such as xvt my client also requires that the tool has been in production for at least months in the vms environment note that i have the list of tools from the faq but not the info on vms availability thanks take a look at teleuse a complete uims from alsys formerly telesoft in the us you can reach them at alsys have an vms version of teleuse v for vms v or higher built using decwindows motif based on x r and motif v btw the vms port from the unix version was made at my company and was released in november thomas michanek dial infologics linkoping phone email thomas michanek direct lin infolog se l i n k o p i n g s w e d e n fax
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in article tbpi innfp early bird think com barmar think com barry margolin writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second this uses under k bytes second or about of the bandwidth of ethernet a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem but a couple dozen should be fine bandwidth is unlikely to be the problem except over a wet string network one of major flaws of x is the horrendous number of transactions and hence process switches that it forces upon a host actual measurements hourly average are per second per logged in user which can lead to or more process switches depending on whether each event is filtered by the window manager as well as the applications and how many processes are needed for each character while a blinking cursor needs only the application and the networking process and does not add any transactions it will add something like process switches per second per user this is a significant increase in overhead especially as the application may have quite a large working set if you want a rapidly blinking cursor there could be as many as if you want to go there i wouldn t start from here nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge cb qg england email nmm cus cam ac uk tel fax
comp.windows.x	xdm backgroundpixmap hi i ve tried to get rid off xdm s ugly login window by giving it a cool backgroundpixmap ressource as login is derived from core this should be possible anyway setting xlogin backgroundpixmap a b c xpm did not produce any message of the form cannot convert string to pixmap and explicitely registering such converter lead to nothing too any way to do it o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re athena tookkit help vck cs rit edu vidya c kayar writes i am currently programming on athena toolkit i am having problems creating a text widget any guidence or help will be greatly appreciated i assume that you are literally trying to create a widget of type textwidgetclass use the asciitext widget instead jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	looking for converters for xpm i am looking for utilities for converting gifs jpegs ps etc to xpm format any information appreciated thanks michael linehan
comp.windows.x	how to iconize a window i have an application running in one window in this application i d like to iconize this window and later deiconize back to window how could i do it your help would be appreciated tai thou siemens com
comp.windows.x	cool demo now available on internet bristol technology announces the availability of its hyperhelp tm and xprinter tm demo for downloading this demo showcases the two products in the form of a diagram editor called de download the demo and see some of these exciting features for yourself o complete on line context sensitive help system o printing support for pcl and postscript o rotated text support o source code for the demo is provided the demo is available via anonymous ftp from ftp uu net there are two versions of the demo located in the vendor bristol directory sun sun demo tar z sunos x hp hp tar z hp ux if you have any questions about the demo send an e mail to support bristol com if you want another version of the demo rs etc please send an e mail to info bristol com remember to use binary mode what are hyperhelp and xprinter read on bristol technology is proud to announce version of its popular hyperhelp product and version of xprinter hyperhelp hyperhelp is the de facto standard for on line context sensitive help in the unix marketplace through a one line function call application developers can access the full features of hyperhelp and cut down drastically on their development time hyperhelp can use the same rtf project and bitmap files as the ms windows help facility this allows a documentation department to maintain a single set of help documents portable between ms windows motif and open look hyperhelp can also be authored in framemaker and with hyperhelp bristol introduces its sgml compiler new features in hyperhelp include secondary windows a character based viewer segmented bitmaps sgml support and an improved history window xprinter xprinter allows developers to add sophisticated printer support to their existing new x based applications very easily xprinter uses the xlib api for both the display and printer this lets you use the exact same code for drawing and printing take a look at the source code for our demo and see xprinter in action if you are interested in adding postscript and pcl support to your application xprinter is the tool for you earlier this year bristola dn usl signed an agreement that resulted in xprinter becoming the standard printing technology for unix svr feel free to run the demo and let us know what you think about hyperhelp and xprinter if you have any questions or comments send them to us at info bristol com or call us at happy demoing the staff at bristol technology
comp.windows.x	re ideas on xterm paste irritation in c u q d d deshaw com wolf cs stanford edu writes moving the mouse out of the xterm window before clicking up will not abort the paste in fact once that middle button is pressed down the paste is inevitable so the obvious questions is there some way around this and do others feel that moving the mouse out of an xterm window before release should abort the paste i would have thought this would have been a common enough problem that someone would have changed xterm by now but maybe it s just me michael it is not just you i have been aggravated many times by the mouse making hay of my maladroitness and would be ever grateful to everyone who would make keyboard alternatives for all mouse actions lsrh
comp.windows.x	setting display i am working for a company which has only one connection to the internet this is through a firewall gateway unix workstation i would like to be able to telnet to a host outside the company and set the display to my pc which is running an x terminal emulator exceed w the display can be set to the gateway workstation with no problem but when i set the variable to my ip address i get a error can t open display message this can t be that hard to work around can it btw i have no trouble running x clients on local workstations in the company and having them display on my pc curtis wahlgren
comp.windows.x	tcpview doesn t read my xkeysymdb file howcum any tcpview for sun users out there i pulled down the pre compiled executables made for sun for tcpview but i m getting a whole slew of the following types of error messages when i try to start it up warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect but i know i have those in my keysym egrep osfactivate osfcancel osfselect openwinhome lib xkeysymdb yields osfactivate ff osfselect ff osfcancel ff osfselectall ff and if i take out the osf lines from said xkeysymdb my copy of wscrawl another motif compiled for sun program gives the same type of complaints as listed above any tips i m mystified kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	xod does it exist hello i was wondering if anyone knew of an interface to od octal dump i assume it would be called xod actually any viewer for a core file will do i looked at export mit in the index of contrib but didn t find anything relevant thanks i hate bama winter main superman msfc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	program wm protocols in open look toolkit hi all i am studying the book unix desktop guide to open look there is an example winprop c that demonstrate how to program wm protocols property in chapter it can run but only show the static text messages no notice pop up what is the problem thanks in advance for help iop file winprop c shows how to set properties on a window include x xatom h for definition of xa atom include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include xol openlook h include xol statictext h include xol oblongbutt h include xol notice h this file defines the atoms with ol prefix id of the top level and noticeshell widget static widget top level notice shell static widget make notice static char message clients use properties to communicate with the window manager this example illustrates how an open look application requests notification from the window manager when certain events occur the communication is in the form of a clientmessage event that the application processes in an event handler atoms used for inter client communication atom atom wm protocols atom wm delete window atom wm save yourself static void handle wm messages static void save and exit static void save yourself static void pop notice static void do exit string to hold comand line for use in responding to the wm save yourself protocol message char saved cmdline void main argc argv int argc char argv widget w int i save the command line for use in responding to the wm save yourself protocol message sprintf saved cmdline s argv if argc for i i argc i strcat saved cmdline argv i strcat saved cmdline create and initialize the top level widget top level olinitialize argv ol main null argc argv create a statictext widget w xtvacreatemanagedwidget stext statictextwidgetclass top level xtnstring message xtnwidth null create a noticeshell widget for later use make notice top level intern the atoms atom wm protocols xinternatom xtdisplay w wm protocols false atom wm delete window xinternatom xtdisplay w wm delete window false atom wm save yourself xinternatom xtdisplay w wm save yourself false add an event handler to process clientmessage events sent by the window manager xtaddeventhandler top level noeventmask true handle wm messages null realize the widgets and start processing events xtrealizewidget top level append the properties wm delete window and wm save yourself to the definition of the wm protocols property this step requires the window id of the top level widget the window id is valid only after the widget is realized xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom wm protocols xa atom propmodeappend atom wm delete window xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom wm protocols xa atom propmodeappend atom wm save yourself xtmainloop static void handle wm messages w client data p event widget w xtpointer client data xevent p event if p event type clientmessage p event xclient message type atom wm protocols if p event xclient data l atom wm delete window save and exit if p event xclient data l atom wm save yourself save yourself static void save and exit display a notice giving the user a chance to respond pop notice top level notice shell static void save yourself set the wm command property to the saved command line xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level xa wm command xa string propmodereplace saved cmdline strlen saved cmdline static widget make notice parent widget parent widget w n text n control n exit n cancel create a button and provide a callback to pop up a notice w xtvacreatemanagedwidget quitbutton oblongbuttonwidgetclass parent xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback w xtnselect pop notice null create the noticeshell widget note that you have to use xtvacreatepopupshell instead of the usual xtvacreatemanagedwidget notice shell xtvacreatepopupshell quitnotice noticeshellwidgetclass w null get the id of the text and control area widgets of the noticeshell xtvagetvalues notice shell xtntextarea n text xtncontrolarea n control null place a message in the text area of the noticeshell xtvasetvalues n text xtnstring please confirm exit from program null add buttons to the control area of the noticeshell each button has an appropriate callback n exit xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticeexit oblongbuttonwidgetclass n control xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback n exit xtnselect do exit null n cancel xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticecancel oblongbuttonwidgetclass n control xtnlabel cancel xtndefault true null return w static void pop notice w emanate w notice widget w emanate w notice xtvasetvalues w notice xtnemanatewidget w emanate null pop up the noticeshell widget the noticeshell widget makes sure that the aplication waits until the user selects from one of the buttons in the noticeshell s control area xtpopup w notice xtgrabexclusive static void do exit w call data client data widget w xtpointer call data client data xclosedisplay xtdisplay w exit
comp.windows.x	re motifbc in article h m vtserf cc vt edu stellr smyrna cc vt edu ray stell writes if i install x r with backward compatibility for motif will motif clients work on the x r servers it works for me i ve run motif and on an x r server with motifbc defined daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re compiling ghostview under sun openwindows in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes in article c z a r curia ucc ie pflynn curia ucc ie peter flynn writes due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it sounds like you didn t load the support for those libraries when ow was loaded the xaw support was missing from ow but added in harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu or the library might be there but not pointed to by ld library path michael
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad p floryan writes in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c however thad you should note that he said that he would like to use it on a pc not unix pc also note the strange cross posting as he probably did not so it is not sure exactly what sort of machine he intends to mount it on if it is a pc or clone then the c jumper would be the correct choice i ve left the cross posting in effect since i m not sure which newsgroup he would really be reading this in don email dnichols d and d com uunet ceilidh dnichols dnichols ceilidh beartrack com donald nichols don voice days eves black holes are where god is dividing by zero
misc.forsale	for sale misc computer parts a radar detector i have the following computer items for sale item condition price a color ega card and monitor working monitor made by zenith b mx ns simms by mt working each k ns simms by oki working each k ns simms by it working each k ns simms by motorola working each k ns simms by nec working each note all the above simms left over from numerous macintosh upgrade i did over the years if you have questions as to which one fits your mac please mail me back c ast fastram card with k working each could be upgraded to m with the dram in item d d k ns dram by ti working each k ns dram by oki working each k ns dram by hunydai working each e compaq classic portable computer working k floppy drives amber inch screen k ram f serial card working each g western digital disk controller working wd wah f x bit card for floopy and harddisk h logitech buttons mechanical working serial mouse i full size at case with working w power supply full size at case with working w power supply this is the original case for my ast premium computer it could have up to half height devices three of which could be floopy drives tape drive etc i am also including the original motherboard which condition is unknown j m floopy drive working each floopy drive working k adaptec b scsi adapter brand new l wangtek es scsi m working tape drive m height m mfm drive working by miniscribe height m mfm drive working by seagate st height m mfm drive working by seagate n prodigy start up kit for brand new pc with data fax modem the following items i am selling as is all the them are in unknown condition either i never get it to work or never try to hook it up o ega card unknown p multi function game clock unknown parallel serial port card q monochrome graphics columns unknown graphics card r cdc m scsi drive unknown q miniscribe m scsi drive unknown r prodigy start up kit unknown free s ast g plus chip unknown t seagate m mfm drive unknown model st i bought the radar detector a couple years ago for obvious reason s and i have never been ticketed for the past years and now i don t drive to work anymore so i would rather sell it u whristler radar detector working x k bands if you would like to buy any of the above items please mail me at jack acs bu edu also a automatic discount will apply if your total purchase price is or more except the two brand new items buyer s pay shipping if you think the prices i listed above is unrealistic please mail me back and i would take your advice into consideration and make the proper adjustments the reason i am selling this stuff is because i have decided that i had enough with this hobby of pc computing and i want to move on other interests one last thing if you know any non profit organization whom might be interested in my equipments please let me know because if no one wants to buy them i might as well donate them and get a tax break thanks jack jack acs bu edu bitnet ccjcc buacca jack c chan boston university arpa jack bu it bu edu internet jack bu it bu edu
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in apr d and d com dnichols d and d com don nichols writes in article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad p floryan writes in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c however thad you should note that he said that he would like to use it on a pc not unix pc also note the strange cross posting as he probably did not so it is not sure exactly what sort of machine he intends to mount it on if it is a pc or clone then the c jumper would be the correct choice i ve left the cross posting in effect since i m not sure which newsgroup he would really be reading this in sorry for any confusion i may have created the disk did come out of a vs and i would like to use it in a ibm pc clone the reason that i posted to comp sys b was because i saw the drive xt mentioned in a for slae notice i had asked for info before but didn t receive any replies thanks once again for the help colin
misc.forsale	sell chemical condensers condensers kimble modern liebig west jacket length mm all glass straight tubes plastic gasketed end caps exactly like central scientific s series condensers being sold in american science surplus s april catalog for each in original old packaging i have of these each volume discounts buy discount bonus free insurance free shipping and insurance for quality control all have been opened and inspected for damage buyer must pay for shipping insurance unless otherwise noted shipping should be about for one or two for three or four etc insurance should be about per tube sugarman cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
misc.forsale	cheap harddisk for your pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	genesis more games for sale updated and expanded sega genesis games for sale all these games just each galaxy force ii jordan vs bird one on one shoot outs etc powerball test drive ii the duel comes in box valis iii by renovation also for sale sportstalk football starring joe montana all games include manual and case shipping is per order nd day priority john baker
misc.forsale	re unix pc software for sale hello i have two b s for sale one of them is a mb ram and the other one is a mb ram system they are both running the m version and i have loaded lots of software on them from the network like gcc emacs tex latex and so on i am asking for the mb and for the mb model or best offer odysseas pentakalos odysseas umbc umbc edu or university of md electrical engineering dept odysseas polaris medinfo ab umd edu
misc.forsale	quantum lps at meg ide forsale hi netters quantum lps at harddisk forsale frame height ide format master or slave cyl hd s t real megs access time of ms k cache on the drive asking email me jakers uhunix uhcc hawaii edu
misc.forsale	bus tix for sale lehigh philly i have two bus tickets for sale from bethlehem pa lehigh university to philadelphia pa tickets good until august for both obo please email at tsai eniac seas upenn edu or call joe tsai tsai eniac seas upenn edu the wharton school a the school of engineering heels back to back and applied science the university of pennsylvania flowers often bloom at night r e m xx
misc.forsale	irwin tapes dc s for sale well if you have an irwin mb here is a great deal for you genuine irwin accutrak tapes ea m dc tapes ea all the avove tapes are new never used and factory preformatted email if interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	c computer disk drives mouse and software for sale all finally cleaned out the storage room and have the following items for sale c computer disk drives mouse all cables lots of software mostly games the computer and drives work hooked it to the tv to test except for sound evidently the sound chip is gone when geos was loaded the mouse would not respond so assume it is bad could be used for the games or for spare parts if interested would accept any reasonable offers send replies to ihlpl rsbrd or call ron byrd
misc.forsale	buing accelerator i had a deal on one but the buyer disappear so here we go again i am in the market for an inexpensive accelerator for series lucas frances a or similair preferred if you have something like this please offer me my address is hsneits nyx cs du edu and you propably can reach me at my home too
misc.forsale	for sale kenwood receiver for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver yrs old perfect condition still under year warranty watts x front x watts rear surround dobly surround video tape cd phono input full easy touch button control for all functions bass treble balance rear level knobs earphone input digital synthesized tuner with fm am presets full logic remote control with volume mute tuner and other controls has three outlets in the back can connect all your equipment and turn them on at the same time includes manuals cables and original packaging a great addition for anyone starting out a home theater or stereo system originally purchased at asking email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone thank you for your time
misc.forsale	sharp wizard oz for sale sharp wizard oz electronic organizer w k ram home and world clocks calendar schedular anniversary and periodic dates telephone directories business card directory calculator outliner memos x screen qwerty style keyboard alarms password protection pc computer interface requires cable software card slot w touch screen vt terminal builitin requires cable and modem i also have have an external battery pack that uses aa s mail order price sharp battery pak asking for the whole deal unit is in perfect shape i just don t use as anything but an address book duane fields friends don t work box let friends use home college station tx ms dos email duanef tamu edu
misc.forsale	wanted tb samplevision driver for smdi peavey dpm sp sx is there anyone out there with a copy of the driver for turtle beach s samplevision program that allows you to use a always tech in scsi card to do smdi dumps between your pc and your peavey dpm sp sx sx this is normally only available directly from turtle beach but i was just wondering if there was someone who got it and couldn t find a use for it if you have a copy let me know cg sad icogsci ucsd edu
misc.forsale	commodore amiga for sale for sale complete amiga computer system or best offer amiga k ram internal external floppy diskette drive detachable keyboard two button mouse rgb monitor all the above equipment is made by commodore send e mail to allen zansiii millersv edu or call
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc image valiant etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added oooooh the mr t premium comic title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism three amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same once daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb three mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comic book set sale a z i am selling the following sets of comics listed are the guide prices overstreet or comics values monthly or wizard if i couldn t find it in overstreet as well as my price feel free to ask me about single items from the sets as i often have extra copies of some of the items in the set all comics are near mint to mint unless otherwise noted set titles guide price adventure comics set vf nm unless noted f vf animal man set animal man animal man tpb reprint wonder woman re intro animal man avengers set avengers avengers annual fish police fish police green arrow green arrow infinity gauntlet infinity gauntlet legion of super heroes legion of super heroes legion of super heroes l e g i o n lone wolf and cub lone wolf and cub omega men omega men omega men annual outcasts outcasts ragman ragman retief retief volume mad dog retief volume adventure retief of the c d t silver blade silver blade slash maraud slash maraud sleepwalker sleepwalker star trek star trek marvel vg f vf star trek next generation mini star trek next generation series strange adventures vf nm unless noted strange adventures f vf g g f vf superman superman superman annual superman the earth stealers superman the man of steel trekker trekker trouble with girls apache dick trouble with girls eternity trouble with girls comico v for vendetta v for vendetta video jack video jack warlock and the infinity watch warlock and the infinity watch warriors warriors x terminators x terminators i guarantee comic grading satisfaction if you are not satisfied with the grade i ve assigned to the book you can send it back and i will refund your money minus shipping costs i have thousands of other comics so if you are looking for something in particular please let me know i might be able to help out i reserve the right to refuse any offer geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	electronic components etc a bunch of things i have too many of chips type new pull price desc ad n bit serial d a converter smt like pcm tms gbl p ti dsp chip mc rc p make your own mac z std n piggyback emulator for z family d p p nec s eprom version dsp chip mk p p you gotta really want em lm n hitachi bitmapped display lots of others including v c v l r other stuff includes cipher tape drives data i o device programmer dont go apple laserwriter a beauty only k page mac k int drives cheers mike
misc.forsale	reduced sony cd players sale item sony es cdpx condition mint age year old price item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape if you are interested or need any additional information please e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks pete p s yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are in perfect condition and used only in audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty if you are interested or have any questions please feel free to e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon
misc.forsale	pc games for sale jordan in flight td pc games for sale both games in original package and original docs jordan in flight s h test drive s h or obo contact bob at rwrona ihlpb att com
misc.forsale	looking for a teacher in miami sounds a little odd but i sold an amiga hand scanner to an elementary school teacher in south florida miami i think but i have just recently found that i still have the scanner manual the original shipment included the software manual disks packaging etc basically i have since lost the name address of the person i sold it to and i would like to get it to him if that person sees this please send me an email to dlneal cbda apgea army mil thanx and sorry for taking up net space dennis
misc.forsale	mazda high miles low price mazda dx or best offer nada blue book for mileage e mail or call ron at work or home miles all highway i used to commute miles day speed air conditioning am fm cassette stereo split fold down rear seat liter valve fuel injected engine roomy interior comfy back seats big trunk well maintained oil and filter every other maintanence as scheduled except for the timing belt which still looks new i did slip and went miles without changing the oil once tires have miles lots of life left probably to front brake job at back brakes are still good engine trans drive train in perfect condition everything works nothing needs replacing next tune up scheduled at body is good left tail light is cracked i m trying to find a used one dealer wants two long scratches and a ding on the hood vandalism a bunch of stone chips on the front of the hood official mazda touch up paint included in the deal this car is extremely reliable even better than the toyota corolla it replaced besides the tires brakes and maintanence items the only other parts that have been replaced are the headlight bulbs selling because my wife refuses to drive a car without an automatic trans and she wants a station wagon with a sun roof etc etc ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
misc.forsale	wanted beach rental nc seeking north carolina beach rental desire house for two families adults kids for one week in late june early july fred masterson fmaster ravel udel edu psychology department fred masterson mvs udel edu university of delaware gnm udelvm bitnet newark de usa
misc.forsale	sweet macintosh nu bus card forsale i have recently purchased a pb and have no more use for my rasterops xl it has been a great card i should have traded it with my iici but i forgot my forgetfulness si your gain great bit video that supports x apple x apple portrait x silly dos monitor resolution x hz hz x apple has hardware pan zoom and supports virtual desktops up to the size of newspaper pages includes standard apple monitor cable or card to bnc you choose i am asking it s still advertised in macworld for up to completely negotiable i can get a monitor and sell the pair i will accept offers for software or powerbook accessory trades make an offer rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	new young seagate mb hard drive greetings netters i have a seagate mb ide drive forsale i bought it yesterday and have been able to come across a mb that i am going to buy but i need to sell this one i guarantee that it will work there is still a transferable warranty i believe it was only used as a boot drive not a server source drive i just want my money back out of it thanks a lot and offers appreciated dave kari sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac software for sale claris filemaker pro database manager for sale still in package or best offer call ask for larry do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	for sale laptop pc bernoulli drive scanner desktop pc i am posting this for a friend please do not respond to this account if you are interested in any of the following ask for rob at laptop pc sx mhz cpu mb ram mb hard drive vga graphics greyscale lcd external vga port high density floppy drive removable key keyboard external keyboard port serial parallel and expansion ports expansion unit available which has full size card slots bernoulli drive dual mb disk drives mb cartridges comes with disks external unit scanner logitech scanman desktop pc dx mhz cpu mb ram mb hard drive math co processor super vga graphics key keyboard mouse high density floppy drive high density floppy drive serial parallel ports
misc.forsale	stereo gear for sale cambridge audio integrated amp p w stereo solid state w box list want cambridge audio tuner t presets list want cambridge audio preamp c list want klipschorns the klipschorns speakers legends in there own time list k want very big corner loaded will play to unbelieveable volumes with very little power arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix se for sale pontiac grand prix se door coupe white white rims gray interior k miles mostly highway litre v multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission one owner options include a c rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver s power seat comfort lumbar headrest both front seats trunk pass through for skis am fm cassette stero speakers electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot it has been garaged and pampered it gets an average of mpg highway sometimes better city is around mpg depending on how it is driven selling because of baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable or door pontiac grand am or similar american car i live in the boston ma area contact mike at home work or michaelq tlaloc sw stratus com
misc.forsale	mb scsi a friend of mine would like to sell his mb scsi drive for s h it is a full height drive and has been used for about one and a half years if anyone is interested please e mail me thank you jeffrey berthiaume s cs utexas edu
misc.forsale	wanted books i mposting this for my emplyer who doesn t have net access but you can reply here and i ll get the message to him my boss is looking for two books on the group mamas and papas papa john by john phillips california dreaming he told me who wrote it but i don t remember he d prefer hardcover but paperback will do if you have these and are willing to sell e mail me here and i ll pass the me ssage along thank you scott wilson
misc.forsale	hp laserjet iii for sale hi i have a hp laserjet iii for sale it s been printed for less than pages according the self test report i am asking for it if interested please e mail thanks
misc.forsale	v a power supplies f each shipping two lh research sm power supplies sm series w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high lo margin current monitor they both work list price from lh research is f qty asking each shipping steve
misc.forsale	furniture sale posted for a friend all in brand new condition less than years old full size bed mattress box spring frame white night table drawer x white dresser drawer plus mirror x x height white pantry entertainment center natural wood color coffee table glass top and base x two white floor lamps each one foldable table x four foldable chairs each if interested call lourdes soto pm x am pm
misc.forsale	dec lk aa pc keyboard for sale dec lk aa pc keyboard for sale automatically senses machine type and switches between at xt modes same exact key layout as dec s vt xx vt xx etc with dec names on keys as well as pc names standard at xt cable included great for use with a vtxxx terminal emulator all the keys are there and in the correct place i e gold pf pf etc perfect condition very good feel shipping dec price was around send email if you have questions thanks keith keith radio nl nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	paintball gun sale tippman special semi auto rifle round feeder inch barrel composite inch barrel composite inch barrel composite oz co tank silencer rounds of paint plus whatever else i have in the box all this for or best offer why you take the most gallant sailor the most intrepid airman or the most audacious soldier put them at a table together what do you get the sum of their fears winston churchill
misc.forsale	arcade video games for sale in northern virginia for sale in northern virgina arcade video games asteroids omega race both are upright video games in excellent condition robert w mangum ii email robert monster apd saic com hertford street work herndon va home
misc.forsale	for sale meg esdi drive and meg x dram for sale st e seagate esdi drive meg unformatted without controller a friend has tested this on his controller and says that it works as is meg kx ns dram each or please call or email thanks veenu
misc.forsale	for sale c system commodore d s disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter all necessary cables about a year old obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	wanted wwf album i am looking for a copy of the first world wrestling federation album in record format will pay for a good condition record and original album jacket and inserts the album i am looking for has a picture of a bunch of the wrestlers ina recording studio front and back with the good guy wrestlers and the bad guy wrestlers making faces at each other songs include land of a thousand dances or something like that please email me here at hsano cs ulowell edu same account that appears on the header
misc.forsale	re borland c w app frmwrks forsale in article apr ryn mro dec com shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes i have recently converted to microsoft visual c i no longer want my borland c w application frameworks product this version is about months old i have all of the manuals disks etc it is licensed to me but i will transfer the license to the purchaser under the accepted terms of the borland license agreement the list price for the product is about i have seen it advertised for as low as i will accept the best offer over plus shipping as described above which is the list price plus i m tossing in the books listed above which are a value i ll sell mine for o b o never used i ve decided i just don t have the time to get into c clarke w whitehead tscwhitehead cc weber edu
misc.forsale	color zenith tv for sale color zenith tv for sale remote control if interested please call or e mail peng ece ucsd edu must sell by apr thank you for you attention
misc.forsale	digital voice processor for sale hi all i have a korg dvp for sale for shipping for those who ve not had the pleasure it is a midi controlled no keyboard of it s own rackmountable digital voice processor what can it do with your voice it can pitch shift it change the notes you sing it can add harmonies to your singing up to parts at one time it can change your voice into a synthesizer s voice but leave what you say alone and intelligible this works well for a computerized sounding singer or robot voice for those of you who just thought about that yes you can do the voices from robo cop and the old elo lead ins with it and yes i m a little red faced to say that i tried those specifically for an input it takes both xlr prong mic and cables for output you can have a combination of the original input only and your choice of mix between the original signal and the effect can be effect only if desired it has preset setups which you can edit and save for your own preferences it has a couple of light scratches but does not look bad and works flawlessly even when we don t use it in my music it s been good for after hours fun in the studio the manual is included i never got around to getting rack ears for it but it has only gotten studio use from me no roading so it s not beaten oooooooo o o steve hitch oo o oo oo my opinions are my own nobody would want to oooo oo oo take responsibility for them anyway i will oooooooooooooooooooooooooo eventually hang for them but i m happy oo oo ooo ooo internet shitch imd sterling com oooooooo ooo ooo uucp uunet sparky shitch
misc.forsale	rock and roll cheap i have a stack of records lp that are from the early sixtys to mid seventys with groups like the beatles cream woodstock triple album etc etc that i would like to get rid of i would be willing to sell one or all for whatever resonable offer some albums still have the original wrapper and price tag i would like to get around for each or you can call and make offer on the lot i could list them all but i d be typing forever call
misc.forsale	anybody remember a few weeks back there was a post originating from russia advertising large quantities of red mercury for sale stirred up a bit of controversy at the time then this morning npr relates the news of a corruption scandal involving the russian defense minister among others selling defense items among which strangely enough was red mercury you don t suppose bill batty abekas video systems inc net abekas billb pyramid com
misc.forsale	printer for sale for sale pin printer alps allegra asking price shipped prepaid c o d orders pay c o d shipping features straight paper path won t jam paper saving tear off capability no need to waste a sheet to get a current printout programmable preferences you don t even need a computer letter quality dpi output epson lq emulation built in card slot for additional memory font upgrades printer ribbons easily found there are three or four sources for alps ribbons in every computer shopper fast cps output this printer has not even been used in the last two years three years old because i have a laser printer at work and use that instead originally i ll even throw in two ribbons may need simple reinkings tho adisak pochanayon university avenue apartment j madison wi cut here jeez it never fails get in the tub and there s a rub at the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all of silverfox software s releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	wanted fax machine the sub says it all thnx tatsuy
misc.forsale	sale bally s jack lallane membership two jack lallane gold memberships are for sale by the owners asking for for each membership please contact padma srini at for details thanks
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale hp b pen plotter fujistu m e meg scsi tape drive sony meg scsi disk drive sticks once in a while dead maxtor xt e meg esdi drive dead miniscribe meg scsi drive adaptac scsi to st interface board daughter boards from tape drives qic qic twist terms vt terms that the head twists on for x or x analog rgb color monitor khz works nice with amiga s spool with feet of conductor ribbon cable all prices are or best offer prices do not include ups shipping all items working except those stated as dead matthew
misc.forsale	volkswagon scirocco for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article of csc general newsgroups dc forsale dc general um general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message id apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park distribution csc um dc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission am fm stereo with cassette sunroof engine in good condition new tires needs work on front left control arm because of damage caused by pothole runs well asking as is obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	re toyota camry super deluxe k in article davidkc uucr h d netcom com davidk netcom com david kiviat write s toyota camry top of the line vehicle blue book asking k miles auto transmission has everything owned by a meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for a friend i have a toyota camry deluxe for sale k miles power everything grey years newer than above for k all highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu new jersey ask for bob fusi
misc.forsale	metallica cd one i have a jap import of one on cd single it contains one breadfan for whom the bell tolls live sanitarium live one demo make offer andy
misc.forsale	house for sale by owner house for sale by owner selling price owner steve and joyce harvey phone address ne ct vancouver washington legal discrition lot bush gardens recorded in volume g of plats page records of clark county builder triangle land built in leader us bancorp mortgage co fha loan balance assumable lot size ft deep x ft wide square footage improved living area of sq ft and double garage area of about sq ft taxes real estate taxes utilities water sewer city of vancouver electric clark county pud recycle garbage vancouver sanitary insulation clark county pud weatherization completed by taseca homes schools evergreen school district access shopping near i and vancouver mall home discription bedroom bath ranch with new roof new paint in and out new mini blinds sunken living room with vaulted ceiling corner fireplace with wood stove insert kitchen has refinished cabinets new sink new dishwasher drop in range and refrigerator has ceiling fans in living room and all three bedrooms well lit large double garage has new steel insulated door work bench shelves and space for washer and dryer yard discription nicely landscaped fenced yard with lots of trees and shrubs garden ft x ft storage shed concrete patio and security lighting trees include apple pear cherry plum and walnut
misc.forsale	vouchers for sale must sell items for sale nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual asking for or best offer i paid for the whole package and it is too late for me to get the refund i would sell it for for the whole package details could be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher price if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift some of you might receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	re us robotics dual standard modem sale in article apr samba oit unc edu sean donovan launchpad unc edu sean donovan writes us robotics external dual standard latest roms still under warranty v v bis v bis mnp hst compatible as well b o over sells for well over mail order sells for here southern california almost everywhere dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
misc.forsale	car for sale vw corrado i m posting this for a friend but you can e mail questions to me at gyeh cc bellcore com however the best way to get your questions answered is to call the phone number listed for sale volkswagon corrado coupe low mileage approx miles speed manual speaker factory blaupunkt stereo system new all weather yokohamas vr sun roof ac red speed activated spoiler extra set of tires pirelli p vr equipped with factory winter package heated seats mirrors and nozzles alpine security system with remotes all records documentation service pampered car mint condition must sacrifice at or best offer call
misc.forsale	re vhs video for sale is this not the same movie that sold at mcdonald s for new
misc.forsale	fs drum acc analog synth computer things cheap hitachi cd player needs cd spin motor shipped joysticks an ibm apple joystick three fire buttons apple joy stick c e kraft track ball make offers coleco vision items two working consoles w working controllers in great shape one roller ball controller two super action conrollers one standard joystick games sa baseball sa rocky sa football vic and c with powersupplies and rf modulators make an offer vic catridges raid on fort knox omega race early s epiphone acoustic guitar spruce top mohogany back sides and neck adjustable bridge plays very nice small hole in side for jack had a pickup at one time shipping yamaha cs analog synthesizer three octave keyboard vco single oscillator range from to tone sources saw tooth square noise and external sound vca can be modulated vcf cut off resonance lfo mod envelope generator depth pitch bend slider cv in and out trigger in and out external tone source in the keyboard is in perfect working order and is colored black and white shipping drum stuff north heavy duty hi hat stand older stand but definately in working shape could use a little clean up comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work on cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like a remo though shipping extra please email if you have questions about anything please email me stephen m jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org cs e
misc.forsale	ibm ps mhz adaptec scsi systm i would like to sell my ps model with its kingston sx now mhz processor a cyrix fasmath coprocessor cpu fpu landmark scores of mhz mhz meg meg total on a ast advantage board wait state original meg hard drive and a very fast adaptec scsi controller card worth around new with software to control any external or internal scsi device i m including dos or and keyboard the vga will drive any multisynching or straight vga cheap monitor please email me directly with inquiries offers so i can return my phone to you via email
misc.forsale	toshiba sl sl notebook for sale for sale toshiba sl notebook computer specs sl k cache mhz mb ram meg ms ide hard drive meg floppy lbs w nickle hydride battery installed edgelit greyscale vga display ps mouse port external keyboard port pcmcia port external expansion port external vga port serial parallel ports socket for sl numeric coprocessor user installable memory is expandable to meg voted editor s choice by pc magazine an expansion station is available from toshiba axionics also makes one that is more economical power conservation options user definable hard drive powerdown period screen dimming auto stepdown of cpu speed to mhz after definable interval etc comments purchased locally at micro center in columbus oh months ago all original packaging receipts and manuals are included under warranty the keyboard on this machine is the best i ve seen i prefer it to the keyboard on most desktop units i typically get hours of battery life the battery recharges in hours to full charge the machine is quite speedy i run os beta on it currently and will leave this operating system installed unless you prefer ms dos included i ll include a padded carrying case also made by toshiba price terms semi firm certified check if outside of columbus i will pay for cod shipping please respond with all queries to grichard cis ohio state edu or call golden richard iii osu dept of computer and information sciences grichard cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	tapes for sale the following cassette tapes are for sale each each for multiple orders shipping included trades can be arranged some of the cases are somewhat worn with a few cracks but the tapes are all in good condition and sound fine e mail to the posting account thanks the who who s greatest hits bachman turner overdrive best of bto so far van halen ou the doors the best of the doors the cars door to door the cars greatest hits phil collins face value no jacket required tears for fears songs from the big chair thanks dave david hillman nothing measurable matters the university of chicago a very good god damn dahillma midway uchicago edu e e cummings
misc.forsale	toyota camry toyota camry deluxe model sp power windows power door locks power steering power brakes am fm cassette k highway miles excellent condition day until pm after pm ask for bob fusi rob fusi rwf lehigh edu e mail or call for more info
misc.forsale	re vhs movies must sell because i am moving in article apr hiramb hiram edu koutd hiramb hiram edu dougla s kou writes those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks douglas kou how much room can videotapes take up in the moving van why not just take them with you bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	test test
misc.forsale	transformer wanted for my dead compacq vga monitor my compacq vga monitor id dead due to the transformer s failure if you have this part and would like to get rid of it pls let me know thanks eric
misc.forsale	sony amplifier and crossover for sale for sale sony car stereo amplifier model xm rated power wx into ohms from hz thd ohm stable short circuit and overload protected this is a great little amplifier that i picked up as a demo model at lechmere last spring and never got a chance to install it s been tested and it works great a perfect amplifier for adding speaker power to a system or for powering mids or tweets whatever mounted on a board complete with a rs amp noise filter with all connections made to barrier strips for easy screw type contacts lists new in crutchfield for am asking o b o complete sony electronic crossover model xec freq response hz db s n ratio db a wtd high pass x over flat hz db octave low pas x over hz db octave din size for in dash installation in many cars this to l is an exceptional unit which i found extremely useful back in the days when i had a car to put a stereo in two sets of rca type inputs f r and three sets of outputs f r sub each output with seperate level control variable low boost control db hz for extending low bass and seperate high and low pass crossover points make this a great unit for anybody who s interested in building a sub satellite type system used with orig box papers o b o both units work flawlessly and are in excellent shape cosmtically ie no scratches etc anyone who is interested please respond to coates wpi wpi edu i ll be happy to answer any questions you might have oh yeah if you want both i ll sell the amp with th x over for or so thanks jeff
misc.forsale	wanted sharp el im looking to but a sharp el scientific calculator the model is discontinued but if you know of any dealer which may have them around please reply jason does the word duh mean jason adam kahana anything to you kahana ils nwu edu northwestern university buffy the vampire slayer the institute for the learning sciences
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale large table four drawer dresser five shelf book case chair speed bicycle khs brand microwave oven call
misc.forsale	for sale hayes external modem personal modem for mac i have for sale a hayes personal modem external for the macintosh really nice small think plugs directly into a power plug ands has two long cables for to the phone and the other to your macintosh get back to me if you are interested with an offer thanks in advance khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale casio boss sf personal business organizer casio b o s s sf organizer k with casiolink hardware software nice personal organizer that is in excellent shape it allows you to store phone numbers addresses do searches etc business cards info schedules and calender and also provides home work time and calculator also has password protection and alarms nice line lcd screen and mini qwerty keyboard comes with casiolink that lets you interface it with your computer mac ibm and transmit receive data all forms i have the software for the macintosh that runs it nifty tool for people on the go if you are interested please email an offer thanks i have necessary instruction manuals and all cables thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi with a mac coprocessor on it as well if this what you are looking for let me know email an offer as well if you are interested thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale x meg simms ns for the macintosh for sale i have four meg simms ns for the macintosh if you want to upgrade that mac iisi iici or whatever email your offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale silverlining hard disk management software last two copies of silverlining from la cie for sale this is disk management software lets you evalulate test hard drive install and test drivers partition disks supports aux prodos etc nice piece of software to have around the house if you are interested please email your offers first good offer also gets mactree disk organization software free khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale x meg ns simms for the macintosh i have for sale two x meg ns simms for the macintosh aka fastones if you are interested please email an offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale practical peripherals external modem nice little really compact cream colored external modem good for the mac or ibm i will throw in a cable for an extra or so if you are interested email me an offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	amiga and hst for sale cheap for sale amiga megs ram monitor extra external hard drive much sotware games graphics productivity etc usr hst modem not dual standard amiga software usr hst modem price for both rrmorris midway ecn uoknor edu
misc.forsale	for sale cdrom searchdisc uswest phone directory i have for sale teh uswest searchdisc cdrom phone directory this has the names phone number address business residence information for all regions covered by us west states includes oregon washington colorado new mexico arizona idaho wyoming montana utah minnesota nebraska iowa north dakota and south dakota have have two cdrom disks one for june the other for oct if you are interested make an offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	genesis sega cd games forsale sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved in with some friends who have genesis cd player so i m selling my whole setup i d like to sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega cd joysticks pad sewer shark cd sol feace cd sega classics cd games on cd streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes cd cd g music graphics sampler john madden cart i m selling all of the above for plus i ll split shipping i don t want to sell things seperately please reply to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	sx for sale for sale sx mz meg ram meg maxtor ide hard disk ami bios stb powergraph svga mb up to x x loop color svga monitor dot pitch diskette drives desktop case turbo reset switches hard drive led keyboard serial parallel game port serial button fully ms compatible mouse everex bps external modem with mnp dos windows logitech scanman handscanner with all software docs box asking for system call norton si is in the range of
misc.forsale	many business books for sale good prices i have the following busines books best sellers for sale all in excellent order if you are interested email me an offer zapp the lightning of empowerment william pyham jeff cox harmony books beware the naked man who offers you his shirt harvey mackay william morrow co what they still don t reach you at harvard mark h mccormack bantam books megatrends new directions for the s john nisbitt p aburdene william morrow co phone power george walther putnam books what every supervisor should know liester r bittel j newstrom mcgraw hill maximarketing new directions in advertising stan rapps tom collins mcgraw hill outsmarting the competition john mcgongale jr sourcebooks professional speaking lilyan wilder simon schuster managing management time william ocken jr prentice hall getting praised raised and recognized muriel solomon prentice hall getting what you want how to reach agreement kare anderson dutton let s talk quality philip b crosby mcgraw hill frontal attack divide and conquer richard buskirk wiley den of thieves james b stewart simon schuster vision stanley davis bill davidson fireside simon schuster if you are intersted email please khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	items for sale less items for sale price listed or best offer kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix v unlimited user os has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo c turbo c the complete reference book serial i o card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	foot switches and guitar i ve got foot switches for sale they appear to be designed for studio use ie they re very well built in diameter cord i d like but i d also like to sell them so make me an offer also i just bought a new ibanez guitar so i need to sell one of my others it s a kramer with passive emg pickups single one double these pickups sound great and are whisper quiet i d like to get for it jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	hard drive m ide only months old i am upgrading my hard drive so i am selling this m drive it run great without any problem for and share the shipping eric
misc.forsale	software for sale ms window ms works pc tool dos i have the following software for sale prices are neogotiable ms window by gateway with manuals ms work with manuals pc tools with all manuals ms dos all softwares are almost new eric
misc.forsale	wanted hp calculator hello i am looking for a hp s or hp sx calculator if anyone has one they are getting rid of please let me know reply to jmparkin mtu edu thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy i d give my right arm to be ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	forsale searay hello my parents are selling a foot searay it is in excellent condition and runs great it has a mercruiser inboard outboard engine it is actually a chevy it is from the weekender class so it has a hard top over the driver has table stove water tank sink sleeping for much more it is a good all around or fishing boat if interested or for more info write tojmparkin mtu edu or call thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy i d give my right arm to be ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	m scsi hd for sale please reply to the seller below m formatted scsi hard disk rodime ts available new drives unused capacity formatted mbytes number of data heads number of cylinders track density tpi positioning times track to track ms average ms full stroke max ms rotational speed rpm avg rotational latency ms scsi bus transfer rate m sec cache k guaranteed against doa works with sun pc mac misc other workstations these are internal drives no external drive enclosure is included price each including cod insured shipping within the continental u s please email responses to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord cyl lx hatchback d speed miles with am fm stereo cassette clutch alternator battery carburator rebuilt registration expires feb asking price please call fulvio location stevens creek blv cupertino ca
misc.forsale	sony mm camcorder for sale for sale sony mm camcorder model pro v top of the line a few years ago autofocus with macro capability x zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for a mm camcorder av input output jacks all cables included rf convertor switcher for tv without av input ac adaptor charger a battery neck trap user s manual mint condition list price for this model was i paid mail order a few years ago will sacrifice for or best offer reason for sale upgrade to hi model john n le at t bell labs naperville il usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	sony mm camcorder for sale for sale sony mm camcorder model pro v top of the line a few years ago autofocus with macro capability x zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for a mm camcorder av input output jacks all cables included rf convertor switcher for tv without av input ac adaptor charger a battery neck trap user s manual original box packings etc mint condition list price for this model was i paid mail order a few years ago will sacrifice for or best offer reason for sale upgrade to hi model john n le at t bell labs naperville il usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	claris filemaker for mac claris filemaker pro database manager for macintosh still unpackaged or best offer please call do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	wanted pasadenas cassette or cd a very good r b group came out in called the pasadenas i bought their cassette single and fell in love with it i ve tried to find their lp or cd but have had no success whatsoever just wondering whether anyone out in netland had heard of them their song that hit the charts was called tribute thanks jay jhdickerson amh amherst edu or jhdicker amhux amherst edu
misc.forsale	sherwood am fm stereo reciever for sale for sale sherwood am fm stereo reciever memory presets i think may be watts per channel or best offer please reply to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	ms dos for sale for sale ms dos upgrade open but unregistered disks or best offer please mail replies to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	pc tools for sale for sale pc tools version all original disks and manuals included or best offer please send replies to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	for sale mazda mx mazda mx spd a c am fm cassette cruise tilt steering white w burgundy interior excellent condition k miles best offer rhonda rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc p o box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke va fax phone or x
misc.forsale	photographic stuff to sell photographic spring cleaning following is partial list with more to come soon for exakta tessar lens plus front cap case meyer oreston lens plus front cap spiratone telxtender model ii plus orig case piesker co berlin extension bellows x x in orig box entire package for plus shipping for pentax or other universal screw mount cameras spiratone lens plus caps fujinon lens orig case aetna coligon lens plus caps entire package plus shipping enlarging lenses prinz el nikkor rodenstock ysaron busch pressman model c x with wollensak velostigmat in rapax shutter hexacon slr with tessar plus case shutter is sluggish but it s a collectible thus rolleicord v synchro compur xenar with case orig lens cap some fool got oil on the shutter blades so shutter is sluggish olympus om n body oil in viewfinder appears to work fine other wise no lens cotact printing frame mm strips of lockdown plate glass cover excellent condition omega s s developing tank mm reels nikkor s s developing tank reels kodak polycontrast filter set prices above exclusive of shipping conserve bandwith and don t come back with petty offers however i will consider trades of interesting exakta equipment for or toward any of the above still digging out leitz reprovit iia minox enlarger busch pressman x nikkor reels and tanks some x lenses shutters x lenses shutters e mail if interested and thanks for reading this
misc.forsale	mother board sale c t chip set mother board c t bios with meg ram ns reply with reasonable offer if you are interested thanks james
misc.forsale	re for sale kenwood receiver in article r ual a u venus haverford edu jburgin ralph cs haverford edu joshua marc burgin writes for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver just a follow up note i have sold the receiver so don t e mail or call me anymore sorry to dissapoint anyone joshua
misc.forsale	pc tools pc tools all original disk manual registration card included disk size price shipping martin x mahdiarwi gw wmich edu
misc.forsale	mb scsi disk for sale i have a new opened box tested drive toshiba mk fb disk for sale mb formatted ms scsi year warranty i thought this would work but i need a larger drive for my system asking this is a great opportunity let me hear from you
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same three cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	metallica for sale addition sorry forgot to add its a jap import andy
misc.forsale	cameras for sale i have the following complete camera kits for sale minolta with three lenses ricoh with zoom lens nikon mm autofocus nikkor mint e mail for more details
misc.forsale	nikkor af for sale nikkor af for immediate sale excellent condition send e mail for details
misc.forsale	slr camera zoom for sale great slr camera ricoh for sale has all the nikon fe features and also shutter speeds form seconds and down excellent condition with accessories such as a zoom lens very reasonable price send e mail
misc.forsale	s vhs broadcast tapes forsale i have a fresh stock of s vhs broadcast master tapes in album covers forsale all unopened and still in plastic i will sell the lot for they are worth around at discount video warehouse fuji broadcast master send e mail
misc.forsale	an aircraft for sale or leasing our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair in terms of delivery the price of the aircraft is the price of leasing is per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes a the price of the aircraft b the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots the price of leasing does not include a the fuel price b the price of technical service c taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments of hangspace d loading unloading and insurance cargo e days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable if you are interested please contact at your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd co
misc.forsale	one way omaha seattle plane ticket female one way omaha to seattle ticket in my name jessamyn west for travel must be picked up at omaha airport or thereabouts on continental airlines make me an offer reply to jwest hamp hampshire edu
misc.forsale	supra modem for scale having upgraded to a supra fax modem my supra modem is for sale at s h approx years old excellent working condition send email rosen ringer cs utsa edu or call at bruce rosen
misc.forsale	ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap for sale ftp software inc pc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for c cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each
misc.forsale	co porcessor cpu hi fellows i still have got bunch of dx intel cpu and dx intel coprocessors buy a set for for shipping individually dx and dx if interested respond here or call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley ca
misc.forsale	x pcs hi fellows i have pcs x for shipping total if interested respond here or call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley ca
misc.forsale	nikon l camera nikon l af camera lens and camera case package send e mail
misc.forsale	texas instuments ti calculator texas instruments ti calculalor excellent scientific calculator best offer
misc.forsale	cds sale please reply to the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu the following discs are for sale all discs are postage paid camouflage methods of silence ppd revenge one true passion ppd cabaret voltaire technology western re works ppd soul ii soul keep on moving cd ppd soul ii soul vol ii a new decade ppd lee perry the upsetters all the hits ppd the daou head music ppd bizzare inc energique ppd the following cassettes are for sale minimum living in a box living in a box cs michael jackson thriller cs olivia newton john physical cs steel pulse reggae greats cs please reply to the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu
misc.forsale	wanted tandem bicycle i am looking for a tandem bicycle any make any model and any condition i would prefer a complete bike but just a tandem frameset is ok too please email me if you have one for sale p s i will pay shipping from anywhere in canada or u s john y ching jching watnow waterloo edu pattern analysis and machine intelligence group department of systems design engineering university of waterloo canada
misc.forsale	re genesis more games for sale updated and expanded i am selling joe montana sportstalk football for the genesis for bucksm which will include shipping firt come first some
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	desert storm cards for sale i have some desert storm cards for sale i have divided them up into two lots i will take the highest bid before just drop me a line with your bid lot desert storm coalition for peace topps cards s s s s nd series topps cards s lot desert storm pro set cards s sticker card sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	cs math physics gre books forsale most of these are c s books there are also some math and physics books for books marked as new the condition is perfect all other books are in good condition shipping buyer pays per book here is the list if you hate the prices email me an offer title author orig price asking price communication networks new walrand computer origanisation and architecture stallings nd edition ai and the design of expert systems lugar stubberfiled artificial intelligence new patrick henry winston nd edition operating system concepts silberschaltz peterson galvin a book on c kelley pohl nd edition teach youself c siegal understanding hard disk management new on the pc jonathan kamin math freshmen calculus big hard cover book discrete math with application susanna s epp a course in linear algebra new damiano little schaum s outline series linear algebra physics foundations of physics new halliday resnick rd edition also selling gre books both are brand new never used arco gre general test big red book arco computer science gre please send email if interested gewong orixa mtholyoke edu p o box germain wong gewong mhc mtholyoke edu mount holyoke college tel south hadley ma
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale cheap ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list reserved means that i have made a deal with a person and i am waiting for the check to arrive reserved comics are as good as sold sorry incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers reserved vs thing vs werewolf by night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved vs johnny blaze reserved copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual uncanny x men copies each copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	sale calculator sharp brand pocket computer model pc dimensions x x inches has digit lcd display rubber keys w alphabet built in basic prog language an pin socketed interface for optional cassette drive don t have slide over reversable plastic cover sorry no owners manual a program or two still in memory asking shipping about in u s thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	blondie card board jig saw puzzle for sale for sale king feature syndicate jaymar specialty company fifth avenue new york ny cardboard puzzle no box pieces worn from use no missing pieces size inches by inches puzzle pieces puzzle depicts dagwood blondie the kids and dog daisey with her puppies on a picnic with dagwood and alexander trying to get a fishing line out of a tree plus shipping charges i can be reached by email or call judy diehl
misc.forsale	cd s games books for sale i have the following cd s for sale for each plus shipping body count without cop killer yo mtv raps volume skid row st album bryan adams waking up the neighbours temple of the dog c c music factory gonna make you sweat ibm pc games eye of the beholder with cluebook pools of darkness jet fighter books ancient egypt a social history retail will sell for encyclopedia of ancient egypt hardcover pages encyclopedia of physics hardcover pages shipping also on books and games yes i haggle e mail offers to vormooth athena mit edu
misc.forsale	lynx games for sale trade i ve got the following lynx games for sale trade make an offer batman returns pinball jam paperboy gates of zendecon brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	tg games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer hu cards r type sidearms alien crush neutopia tricky kick ninja spirit somer assault cd lords of the rising sun sherlock holmes brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	game gear games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer crystal warriors junction revenge of drancon psychic world castle of illusion starring micky mouse chessmaster brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	genesis games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer trouble shooter where in time is carmen sandiego brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	lds forsale i have the following lds for sale for st each additional postage rd class paid project a ko japanese no english dominion act i japanese no english dominion act ii japanese no english far from the madding crowd lbx west side story lbx ben hur p s the dirty dozen p s star trek v p s the fabuluos fleischer folio vol tom and jerry classics bugs bunny classics brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	marx brother vhs forsale i have the following marx brothers tapes forsale i would like to sell them as a batch if possible all except are new carfully stored copies i bought i now own the laserdisks mgm ua a day at the races at the circus the big store mca hourse feathers the cocoanuts duck soup animal crackers brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	re m scsi hd for sale ops mgr georgian tigger jvnc net wrote please reply to the seller below m formatted scsi hard disk rodime ts available warning i have had bad experience with this model and i know several others who also have run into difficulties the drives will work just a limited period of time and after that the disk will report medium error dont ask me for details my disk is just stone dead david david jonsson voice fax p o box postal giro s uppsala internet e mail t djo tdb uu se sweden
misc.forsale	florida vacation package for sale hello this package is the right thing for you if you are planning a short vacation in central florida for you get four nights in first class hotels for two adults and up to three children two nights each in orlendo and daytona beach you will pay additional state tax of day required by law a great coupon book for major tourist atractions restaurants etc fully transferable it expires at can be extended for a whole year for only more you need to make reservation days in advance otherwise the availability of hotel is not ganranteed price negotiable the reason i am selling it is because i missed the deadline of using it for last chrismas if interested email ll midway uchicago edu
misc.forsale	for sale toyota supra toyota supra fully loaded automatic maroon color with leather interior alpine stereo system with cd changer alpine car alarm miles great condition one owner have to leave country in june asking o b o please call and ask for cary bernard lin departmental research assistant computing and information services columbia business school
misc.forsale	camera olymypus stylus pocket camera olympus stylus mm pocket camera smallest in its class includes time date stamp battery carrying case red eye reduction timer fully automatic rated in consumer reports obo jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	classic s rock tapes for sale hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid st class multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart of rock and roll heart and soul want a new drug walking on a thin line if this is it and more hooters nervous night contains and we danced day by day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in their st tape contains cry tough i wont forget you talk dirty to me and more hall oates big bam boom contains out of touch possession obsession and more ratt out of the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say it isn t so your love all the love in the world and more plant robert shaken n stirred contains little by little plus more journey raised on radio contains girl cant help it suzanne be good to yourself ill be alright without you why cant this night go on forever duran duran arena contains is there something i should know hungry like the wolf new religon wild boys planet earth and more monkees then and now the best of the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear us apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university of arkansas fayetteville i think someone should have had the decency to tell me the luncheon was free to make someone run out with potato salad in his hand pretending like he s throwing up is not what i call hospitality
misc.forsale	wanted gn r pay per view from paris i am trying to obtain a hi fi copy of guns n roses pay per view last summer from paris if anyone has a copy they would like to sell or could make me a copy please e mail me thanks
misc.forsale	mountain view house for sale three bedrooms one updated bath professionally lanscaped front yard w sprinklers utilities in attached one car garage recently painted inside convenient commute location schools whisman elementary crittenden jr high mountain view high for more information contact beverly morgan contempo realty
misc.forsale	machinist tools wanted i m looking to buy machinist tools of any kind if you have any or know of any for sale please leave me e mail and i ll get back to you promptly frank
misc.forsale	re os unleashed we have an copy of the book new not read plus s h dc if you can pickup the book has over pages and is quite heavy feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	probes and plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings i have sets of plugs for your oscilloscope or function hooks i also have sets of probes they have multipliers of x and x there is also an ref switch all these probes and plugs are in excellent conditions if interested please make me an offer i will respond to your replies by wed al
misc.forsale	re probes plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings sorry for the typos clipper hooks al the plugs are supposed to have a black and a red mini
misc.forsale	for sale scooter for sale red honda scooter cc need m c license max speed mph gas mileage mpg max wt lbs odo reading miles it has only been out of the factory for years very low mileage original owner all paperwork available very thorough tune ups quarterly year body not a scratch garaged and covered always cover and helmets included good for student or light commuter or for fun or best offer e mail or call in evenings susan hodapp i live in north carolina raleigh and will be moving to indiana may th so i could drop it off somewhere inbetween
misc.forsale	c language and other books for sale your price list price c memory management techniques len dorfman marc j neuberger includes disk borland c handbook second edition covers version chris h pappas william h murray iii converting c to turbo c len dorfman includes disk the art of c herbert schildt includes disk using turbo c herbert schildt c the complete reference second edition herbert schildt using c version bruce eckel advanced c herbert schildt second edition high performance interactive graphics lee adams examples done in basic high performance cad graphics in c lee adams pctools the complete reference second edition versions and hy bender dvorak s inside track to dos and pc performance john dvorak nick anis advanced quick c nd edition version werner feibel wordperfect the complete reference series edition karen l acerson using ventura publisher que this book covers the first version but it might be good for newer versions too using os kris jamsa this book is for version x obviously using generic cadd levels ray c freeman iii i will pay shipping only in the usa ekarabin magnus acs ohio state edu compuserve com ekarabin csi compuserve com
misc.forsale	used cds for sale nova mob last days of pompeii ppd overwhelming colorfast overwhelming colorfast ppd teenage fanclub bandwagonesque ppd tin machine tin machine ii ppd various teriyaki asthma i v comp ppd rob rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	comics for sale marvel dc some indie small comic collection for sale all issues are nm unless otherwise noted prices are flexible for large purchases buyer pays shipping nm means the comic was ordered and bagged with backing upon arrival and has never been read or opened numbers in parenthesis represent the number of multiple copies graded price fantasy masterpieces silver surfer second series nm firestorm original series f f the fury of firestorm second series human fly vf human torch vf indiana jones nm kazar legion of super heroes vf machine man g a space oddessy origin of f f micronauts vf new gods f f outsiders nm ragman f rom vf vf secret origins blue beetle secret wars ii vf nm shade the changing man original series vg vg thing vf thor vf the mighty thor dbl iss graded price ambush bug stocking stuffer avengers batman the outsiders beauty the beast issues nm cloak dagger vf nm daredevil nm nm deadman haney adams deadman helfer lopez issue limited series doctor strange fantastic four vf vf vf firestar iss nm hercules iss vf date stamp iron man f vf nm dbl iss laser eraser and pressbutton eclipse marvel fanfare epic marvel universe nm nm moonshadow epic issues nightcrawler iss squadron supreme iss vf vision the scarlet witch iss nm vision the scarlet witch iss nm x men alpha flight iss graded price alien legion epic issues alpha flight nm crisis on infinite earths daredevil miller written and drawn nm elfquest warp third printing nm hulk both byrne marc spector moon knight new mutants x factor x men vf serious inquiries only alpha flight x men crossover wolverine appearance daredevil nm miller plot nm miller script starts nm miller teenage mutant ninja turtles nm second printing comic size nm first printing magazine size nm first printing comic size michelangelo nm original printing fugitoid nm original printing raphael nm original printing x factor nm x men the new teen titans marvel d c crossover w darkseid nm rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	sale bulk enviro t shirts i am not a company thus this is not a commercial sale i purchased t shirts last fall for a fund raiser that fell through we didn t have the time to sell the shirts i have about shirts left and i am willing to sell them to you for a piece more than a dollar discount of what you would have paid the supplier for the shirts even in bulk that s for shirts these shirts are jim morris t shirts they are all cotton and most have more than colors they are clean and neatly folded in a box if any happen to be damaged i will refund your money for each damaged shirt or replace it your option you could sell them for at least to a piece the higher number is for the nicer shirts to raise money for a school event or a organization i realize it is a big investment but it could pay off big i would be willing to sell the shirts in lots of but only at a shirt i will pay shipping but prefer local buyers and will give them more bargaining power please help me i do not have the time to sell these shirts and i need the money i am taking a big loss by selling this cheap i will give you jim morris phone number so that you can varify the prices all prices are negotiable truman please email tf andrew cmu edu and tell all of the clubs in the area about this deal once they re gone they re gone cause i am not a business
misc.forsale	mac ke hd for sale for sale mac ke with mouse and keyboard functions fine hd serial hard drive plugs into floppy port and gives a mb hd make offers sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	for sale graphic equalizer for sale still audio source model eq eleven band stereo octave equalizer with specturm analyzer display digital readout left right controls over the spectrum great to boost all kinds of music signals fm broadcasts tapes cds makes even the weakest recording sound great purchased year ago asking includes original packaging manuals cables and warranty card email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone
misc.forsale	bps external modem i have a practical peripherals sa external modem for sale it s been used less than year and has a lifetime warranty i ve never had a problem connecting to any site something i can t say for the noname or third tier modems original box and manuals firm includes shipping anywhere in the continental us ken ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
misc.forsale	marvel x comics for sale these are comics i want to sell that are x comic mutant related all prices are at least off the overstreet price all are nm m condition bagged and backed if you don t like these prices make an offer title price alpha flight wolverine appears avengers st appearance x factor daredevil wolverine appears fantastic four art adams art wolverine fantastic four wolverine ghost rider appear fantastic four wolverinr ghost rider appear havok and wolverine meltdown epic comics marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider marvel fanfare x men ka zar team up deathlok app marvel team up st karma by miller byrne x men wolverine cover story new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable st app deadpool gideon domino st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear spider man mcfarlane liefeld art x force appears thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x men fall of the mutants inferno rob liefeld art jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new x men team st printing all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	self defense pepper spray for sale i have a few small cans of self defense spray for sale i m asking for one can it s about the size of a pen marker and works pretty good so i hear thanks noel
misc.forsale	pioneer mulit play cd player for sale pioneer pd m multi play cd player with disc magazine full function remote all the standard features including computer allocated program editing and time fade editing it is in excellent shape year old asking hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer double cassette deck pioneer ct w r double cassette deck auto ble tuning cd deck syncro recording music search high speed dubbing other standard features less than one year old excellent condition firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	kenwood w speakers kenwood ks h watt floor standing speakers for sale less than one year old brand new shape hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer audio video receiver pioneer vsx audio video receiver dolby pro logic surround ch logic studio and simulated surround playback video signal selector simulcast function two way vcr copying and monitoring acoustic memory function custom memory function sleep timer multi room remote jack av remote control unit less than one year old excellent shape firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	powerbook forsale i am posting for my brother but please reply to this account and i will forward the messages the powerbook is in excellent shape five months old and was purchased abroad i haven t seen it for details send e mail asking price best offer conditions immediate sale prepayment
misc.forsale	toyota tercel dr k good condition make me an offer hi i have a blue toyota corolla tercel for sale reason for seeling this great little car is my new celica car specifications toyota corolla tercel speed k miles door blue air conditioning heat am fm stereo well taken care off and maintained clean new battery timing belt and fan belt inspection sticker valid until a tough car generally go above k miles make me an offer e mail reddy ulysses att com phone work home kishore reddy include std disclaimer h kishore p reddy at t bell laboratories
misc.forsale	wanted airline certificate voucher i am willing to pay a reasonable amount for airline certificate voucher am looking for certificate voucher that is valid for a round trip ticket coast to coast or anywhere in us transferrable to my name please reply by e mail or phone anosh
misc.forsale	panasonic kx p pin printer panasonic kx p pin dot matrix printer cps in dot diameter character lcd super quiet mode draft letter quality super letter quality fonts rear bottom front or top paper feeding friction or tractor color compatible needs optional color kit includes windows panasonic printer drivers disk bought it in jan and have used it very little still has original ribbon cartridge this is a very nice printer and is in brand new conditio i just dont use it often enough and i need money i ll take for it hans meyer
misc.forsale	re an aircraft for sale or leasing in article aa kerhuz rtools msk su slavik rtools msk su writes our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair in terms of delivery the price of the aircraft is the price of leasing is per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes a the price of the aircraft b the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots the price of leasing does not include a the fuel price b the price of technical service c taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments of hangspace d loading unloading and insurance cargo e days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable if you are interested please contact at your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd co calling bill gates calling bill gates jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale in article mcshub dcss mcmaster ca cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes in article c qoby n utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes dx cpu chip for sale shipping if you like to pay for the chip you will get it immediately otherwise i will take the highest offer in a few days thanks please refer to he is selling for that cpu correct may be high now that amd has started selling clones you re both dreaming that guy who is selling at is ripping himself off and once those chips are gone it ll be a while before you see that price again amd or not a clone is still a clone if you want the genuine article then you pay for it just because one guy decides to sell at a ridiculously low price doesn tmean everyone else has to kevin heay bud get a life in the real world do you still play with your atari with the paddles geez man open your eyes on the technoledgy of today i have been quoted a price from a local dealer friend of mine that i could get a motherboard dx with k cache with meg base ram for here is some friendly advice go to your favorite book store walden book s and pick up a computer shoppers guide you think that was aa good price wait till you see some of the other goodies they sell james jeansonne aka the master
misc.forsale	hawaii tickets forsale hallo all my girlfriend and i will be travelling across the us this summer so we won t be using our tickets to return to hawaii please buy them the tickets are one way leaving peoria il on may it connects to the main route in minneapolis st paul and from there goes on to honolulu you ll be in honolulu at pm and flying via northwest airlines any offers will be considered but please make sure these are serious offers tickets to hawaii aren t cheap but we re aiming to make two people very happy this summer madkiwi camelot bradley edu
misc.forsale	re ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap in article br pct rlg stanford edu br pct rlg stanford edu peter c tam writes from br pct rlg stanford edu peter c tam subject ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap date sat apr gmt for sale ftp software inc pc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for c cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv correction i check the diskettes it only contains the pc tcp kernel no applications it is only good for people who needs to run their own lan applications that uses ftp pc tcp kernel calls but mot the extra telnet ftp etc applications
misc.forsale	forsale microbotics hardframe scsi controller forsale one microbotics hardframe scsi controller for the a make me an offer e malcolm crosby internet mcrosby bsa kent edu e mail emcamiga malcolm redpoll mrfs oh us e mail please
misc.forsale	wanted for polaroid palette manual newsgroups misc wanted misc forsale misc forsale computers subject wanted manual of polaroid palette distribution world organization clemson university clemson sc i need the polaroid palette model or similar model manual i am willing to pay for it plus the shipping charge via usps rd class i don t need the original one photo copyed manual will just fine for me if you have the manual please help me out thanks in advance eric newsgroups misc forsale misc wanted misc forsale computers subject wanted for polaroid palette manual summary distribution world organization clemson university clemson sc keywords
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your faithful pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	for sale monochrome monitor motherboard disk drive for sale or trade some combination for motherboard or v bis monochrome monitor pretty generic for ibm motherboard mhz built in monochrome and color support built in serial and parallel ports stick it in a robot use it to make a cheap terminal whatever internal low density disk drive baud external modem practical peripherals make me an offer or suggest a trade for whatever you have libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off
misc.forsale	wanted sega glasses i badly need a pair of sega d glasses for a cheap vr setup if you have a set and want to part with it i can arrange shipping etc and duty if necessary leave e mail to davecru ersys edmonton ab ca or call ask for dj dave cruickshank davecru ersys edmonton ab ca
misc.forsale	looking for mike damico i recently purchased an ibm monochrome vga monitor from mike damico the monitor arrived but it was missing it s power cable mike s address is apparently not a proper address because mail can t reach it if anyone knows how to contact mike and could help me find him i would appreciate it i am sure he just set aside the power cord as he was packing the monitor but it would be a lot more useful to me if i had the cord as well traci collins professor of computer education colorado mountain college tcollins bridget newcastle co us
misc.forsale	psychics look into the future discover what lies ahead in love health and finance speak live with a psychic of your choice extension you must be or over to call calls cost per minute after introduction
misc.forsale	books for sale just make offer someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord for sale dr steel grey honda accord k miles speed manual gives around mpg brand new clutch installed last month original owner am fm cassette doesn t work a c cruise control b o runs great reason for selling recently purchased a new car call raj ext days evenings or email sunil eng sun com
misc.forsale	usrobotics courier hst for sale us robotics courier hst k modem external volume control led display power switch cps compressed file transfers higher for uncompressed files all manuals and original packaging this modem ussually costs around v error control v bis data conpression mnp class error free throughput up to bps special price for you only please inquire with any questions email jmcneill sdcc ucsd edu or call voice james mcneill
misc.forsale	time line for windows for sale time line for windows by symantec never opened still in wrap retails for asking send e mail if interested jonathan internet ac cleveland freenet edu jonathan evans commlink wariat org
misc.forsale	stereo system for sale ken
misc.forsale	looking for technics sa gx if you would like to sell your technics sa gx receiver or know someone who would like to sell it please contact me i m willing to pay any reasonable price thanx davor dmatic athena mit edu
misc.forsale	for sale altos unix machine i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale ca i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup to distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale ca i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup to distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com steve scherf ceo moondog software steve zeppelin moonsoft com
misc.forsale	wanted ph for seagate i have a seagate hard drive that i need some info specific information on anyone have the ph for seagate technology inc or if they have a bbs setup that has all the drive info on it like maxtor does i ll take that thanks apple ii forever go bucks play lacrosse raging bullwinkle shane m zatezalo cis osu i net szatezal magnus acs ohio state edu root tap colum fnet org nextmail shane kiwi swhs ohio state edu gs call t a p a futurenet bbs k ds hst megs gs
misc.forsale	re nikkor af forsale price reduced asking only
misc.forsale	unix unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all of the floppies or tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems is about us if you are interested please contact me at canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	physically sound lp records sale trade or barter i still have about records left on hand all in pristine condition except where noted quite a few out of print and more than a few imports in the bunch rather than selling the majority for each i m looking to barter packages for stuff that you might be selling over usenet i ll also trade for other records in very good condition that you ve replaced with cd as well as pre recorded videos on beta or vhs in the past i ve been able to make deals based on the equivalent list store price e g cd movie in beta format to get around what you or i might have originally paid as if we can even remember at this time i m looking for a set of working aa nicad rechargable batteries if you have some lying around and they re sound rsvp so if you re curious rsvp for my list and if you see anything that you like send back a proposal for a record package and a copy of your ad for the stuff you re selling thanks gld i e the imports and out of prints are also valued at used cd i once got a baud external modem for records list anybody got a nice unused blender for making frozen margaritas ps there have been no additions since the last posting in february the list has only shrunk as i ve made a few deals since je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	wanted playboy campus girls issues i m looking to buy the annual playboy magazine issue featuring girls from colleges around the us specificly i want issues from and one of these features a girl i went to high school with so i m curious to see how it turned out all help is appreciated
misc.forsale	panasonic palmcorder i would like to sell my camcorder i havent used it much and i need the money panasonic pv vhs c palmcorder high speed shutter flying erasr head power zoom digital autp tracking audio video dubbing auto tracking digital automatic focus book mark search record review automatic white balance ccd image sensor hq system includes rechargeable battery battery charger vhs playpak adapter compact video cassettes all original docs cables box etc i got it new in sept and used it a total of about times the battery has been charged less than times this thing is in brand new condition i am asking make me an offer hans meyer
misc.forsale	cd player mg floppy k floppy rc rc car d d stuff lots please read immediate sale greetings netters i have the following items for immediate sale i need the money and if you need the stuff we can work out a deal sharp single disk cd player originally paid oodles but that was a couple of years ago it works well has all the standards remote sensor remote not included track pragrammable memory etc i got a new one and need to sell this one please email me an offer it s the standard black component style cd player meg floppy drive a real ibm floppy drive with cable and mounting case i paid a couple of months ago the drive works as last time in i would like to get the back for it but obo applies k floppy drive i m sure someone out there needs an extra k it works great and is nice and quiet again please email offer rc remote control car time world leader design it was just overhauled it runs great even though the body if not all that pretty has new engine in it as well as racing pinion the chassis is nicked up from hard running but it s still a great car does not include electronics comes with monster truck conversion kit wheel arms already installed virgin truck body and bumper etc car kit obo make an offer d d stuff you name it i probably have it please send email regarding what you want or a request for sale list i hate to part with any of it but needs are needs eh misc cd s alice in chains facelift skid row self titled both obo really box of computer printer paper paid for it make offer i might have meg ns simms forsale if i get a new motherboard if you interested the price is a piece sold as a set thanks in advance please respond as soon as conveniently possible dave kari sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac modem wanted i would like to buy a cheap modem for my mac did i mention that i would prefer it to be cheap baud preferred but when you re looking for cheap and i do mean cheap beggars can t be choosers e mail me oh i m in seattle so if you were also that would be a bonus
misc.forsale	intel i dx cpu shipping forsale intel i dx cpu price must sell immediately andie wei ku lin awlin eagle wesleyan edu
misc.forsale	re repost tape drives mm mm for sale in article apr dmc com munroe dmc com dick munroe writes acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression exabyte mm sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	nw chicago suburbs cheap car for sale toyota corolla d hatchback runs ok needs dents smoothed serious brake work and miscellaneous tlc excellent auto shop project obo see in algonquin or schaumburg or email johnson behind every absurdity there lies a basic truth johnson wes mot com behind every basic truth there lies an absurdity
misc.forsale	for sale hit movies on vhs i have the following prerecorded vhs tapes for sale all are in great shape and are being sold since i have replaced all of them with laserdiscs star wars the empire strikes back return of the jedi batman indiana jones and the temple of doom indiana jones and the last crusade e t if you are interested in any of these titles please mail me an offer
misc.forsale	last chance playboy magazines my roommate left me his playboy collection which he no longer wants so i m offering them to the general public that s you make an offer for the entire collection the current best offer is shipping i will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method of shipping from bethlehem pa february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november la toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price is right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls of the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from we got it made sex in cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january th anniversary issue collector s edition february year in sex rio s grand pom simone eden march la toya jackson pom laurie wood august women of wall st diana lee from license to kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex in cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls of the southwest conference pom shannon long november women of washington sex in cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars of lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex in cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	forsale wedding dress size for a size wedding dress with lots of beads inquire at mst utah oo paid asking o
misc.forsale	wanted k ns sips wanted k ns sips if you have any please tell me how much you want includding shipping
misc.forsale	intel chmos design kit i have this kit which includes the following c a c a chmos clock generator and driver for c processors c c k kx chmos uv erasable prom c l low power k x chmos dynamic ram c a chmos programmable interrupt controller c chmos bus controller fro c c processors c c bit chmos microprocessor c a chmos programmable peripheral interface c chmos programmable interval timer c chmos dynamic ram controller all these are chips with complete manual in a box i don t know whether they still work or not and i don t really know what they are so this is mainly for those who knows what this is and have use of it probably ee stuff since this used to belong to a ee student anyone interested please make me an offer jonina
misc.forsale	looking for diffraction grating glasses in quantity yeah that about sums it up looking for a place that sells diffraction grating goggles in quantity thanks
misc.forsale	hp plotters for sale new plotters of em straight out of the box but docs have all been lost make offer cod shipping jj uk mik uky edu
misc.forsale	mb western digital hard drive for sale wester digital caviar internal hard drive mb half height ide years old great shape or closest offer mike davi saturn rowan edu
misc.forsale	wanted portable color tv it seems i m in the fortunate position to desire what many people want to sell a miniature color tv i require color and input for cable or vcr i would prefer a inch diagonal and a tube television not lcd get paid the first make an offer by email marc
misc.forsale	for sale complete system i have the following system for sale dx mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor k external cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor svga graphics card tseng labs w meg awesome card key keyboard baud internal modem software ms dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other various utilities i m upgrading and need to sell the system is reliable and ready to go i ve never had any problems with it i m asking o b o if you re interested please respond by either e mail or phone tae zeus tamu edu or thanks andrew
misc.forsale	sony camcorder for sony ccd v mm camcorder originally bought for now only original box all accesories ja f andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	sun sparkstation laptop b o sun sparkstation laptop workstation for or best offer m ram expandable to m m hard drive floppy drive os open windows lcd display scsi mouse ac adaptor manuals carring case posted for a friend please contact him directly please call leonid
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale in article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off please tell me where i can get a cd on the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	meg seagate ide hard drive 
misc.forsale	apple ii clone for sale plus extras please take this system off my hands i no longer use it and it is taking up valuable room they system consists of a microcom pdos apple ii clone with k on board and pdos installed it comes with a load of boards including a disk drive board z boards a k board an column board a couple printer boards including the grappler ii it has height drives and a cooling fan attachement the keyboard is of the extended variety with builting keywords and a keypad all of it for brett maraldo plexus productions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	triumph spitfire convertible f o r s a l e triumph spitfire convertible k original miles burgandy color wooden dashboard no rust garage kept heater chrome bumpers not the black plastic crap brand new top asking negotiable mechanically the car is in a very good shape and it is running very very strong if you know what i mean plenty of catalogs and manuals are coming with the car if you are interested in the car please reply to this message i am not interested or willing to sell any parts the car is in a very good condition to strip it george georged astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	headphones akg s for sale i have a pair of akg s in nearly new condition for sale they have been used in my studio for mixdown monitoring i have the original box the s use both an electret element and a dynamic element in each ear cup with built in crossovers they have a very smooth frequency response and the electrostatic element gives clearer highs i am asking for the pair brett maraldo plexus prodcutions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	record singles for sale i m selling a bunch of my older records off they are sitting around collecting dust and i never use them i have used each of these records once maybe twice if i didn t record the song i wanted correctly the first time these records are in perfect condition please email me with the records you would want and what you think a fair price is i will probably give deals the more records you buy kinda capatalist isn t it well give me a yell at pagorm iastate edu with any comments see ya paul i have recieved a few questions as to what are i guess i should elaborate am i that old they are just maxi singles on wax if i am correct most beat mixers still use this form of record this is probably the kind of person interested in this colllect or parts of it any questions call thanks and see ya artist song soul ii soul get a life back to life back to life d mob put your hands together a rhythm from within c mon get my lovin janet jackson rhythm nation black cat milli vanilli blame it on the rain girl i m gonna miss you maxi priest close to you i know love quincy jones i ll be good to you inxs suicide blonde body wants u tonight babyface my kinda girl mc hammer turn this mutha out ring em madonna keep it together vogue lisa stansfield this is the right time all around the world affection stevie b love emotion depeche mode personal jesus dangerous policy of truth kaleid enjoy the silence mephisto england neworder world in motion snap ooops up believe the hype the power kyper tic tac toe rebel mc street tuff rob base turn it out mr lee get busy monie love grandpa s party i ll drive you crazy the time jerk out black box everybody everybody bbd do me johnny gill rub you the right way b s roam bushfire redhead kingpin do the right thing digital underground humpty dance technotronic this beat is technotronic pump up the jam tough jane child don t wanna fall in love world lullabye young mc i come off bust a move got more rhymes in a room wiggle it glenn medeiros she ain t worth it
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublet in dc wanted summer sublet in nw dc on red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment or room for or less move in memorial day weekend through end of august no smokers email prinaoa yalevm or rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	complete aix ps software and manuals best offer repost a friend of mine has a complete set of aix ps software and manuals for sale new all on meg floppies including base os development tools including c compiler administration extensions x windows motif tcp ip pc simulator dos merge etc etc this software requires a ps with processor or higher ample disk space and memory it can coexist with dos and os on the same machine and selectively booted at startup if you are interested email me your offer and i will pass it along keep in mind that the manuals and software fill up a x x box so shipping is a consideration please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
misc.forsale	at t unix sysv software for sale best offer repost here is your chance to have a full unix system at a small cost i have a full set of unix system for the at t for sale it is version the latest as far as i know and includes all the software meg floppies and manuals for base os development tools c compilers etc dos merge simultask etc i beleive the software requires a and will not work on any other machine i also have a few at t and manuals including the system programmers guide if anyone is interested drop me a line with your offer if you are interested please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
misc.forsale	wanted roller blades i m looking for a pair of inline skates aka roller blades new or used for less than including shipping size strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people v mhsk ubvms bitnet son i am able she said though you scare me watch said i beloved strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people v mhsk ubvms bitnet son i am able she said though you scare me watch said i beloved
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught a award give away company i attempted to cancel my order before i received the package but i was too late and the company refused to take the package back for refund i know the truth which i would never get my back but i wish to get my money back as close as possible here is the describtion of the package nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual i paid for the whole package so try not to be cold blooded when you make your offer details would be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher pric if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift if you receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	for sale for sale trident meg video card up to x in colors dollars or best offer e mail at dcassen mcs d cs umr edu
misc.forsale	re repost tape drives mm mm for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression sale pending exabyte mm sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	loaded apple e system for sale apple e system for sale apple e enhanced c cpu w k on motherboard apple extended column card expands memory to k total floppy drives apple disk s with apple controller card floppy drive apple unidisk with apple controller card apple monochrome monitor apple super serial cards baud external modem original documentation for all of the above prodos dos system software talk is cheap communications software original w docs isys forth original w docs fig forth w original docs super sunday footbal game original w docs tsushima game original w docs books systems programming apple graphics and arcade game design apple machine language for beginners all for shipping is probably more if you have any questions please e mail reasonable offers will be considered keith r frederick happiness is our moral purpose if you see dr fu manchu kill him scalawag carson u washington edu reason is our only absolute i m not a number i m a free man cis uwid on the road to cornell
misc.forsale	tandy wp word processor for sale i have a tandy wp wordprocessor for sale it has k due to a k due to a ram disk a word processing program a word spell checker a thesaurus is thin and weighs lbs it takes aa batteries alkaline or ni cad rechargable or uses an ac adapter in cluded it is a full size qwerty keyboard with an character by line lcd screen it also has a telcom program which allows transfers of files to an ibmpc with a null modem cable and shareware transfer program also included it has a pin serial port a parallel printer port and a tape recorder file save port the telcom program can also be with a modem not included to access services like compuserve this is great unit for a high school or college student to write papers and reports on it comes with the original manual you get all the above for plus shipping and cod charges send e mail inquiries to gilbert j gall internet guf psuvm psu edu penn state university a old botany bldg phone office university park pa
misc.forsale	sony watchman sony b w watchman tv sony b w inch tv it is in excellent condition it has not been used much at all thus why i am selling it it gets great reception it sells new for so i am asking it is small enough x x that you can carry it around anywhere please e mail to jbell eecom gatech edu john t bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta ga e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	word perfect offer word perfect v for the mac i have a brand new copy of word perfect it is the latest release it has not been used and is still in shrink wrap it is a student version so it is not upgradable to a newer version it sells for i would like to get for it please e mail to jbell eecom gatech edu john t bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta ga e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted transformers the toys hey collection i am interested in buying any in good condition i am particularly interested in any of the older exotic models eg five transformers into one etc i am looking at paying around depending upon the model size and original cost etc i will also pay airmail postage and packing i am also happy to buy any old sci fi related toys eg robots rocketships micronauts etc there is only one catch i live in new zealand so you have to be willing to post the items there i hop that someone can help me out cheers darren
misc.forsale	house for sale in sandwich ma for sale by owners who were also the builders contemporary cape house located in sandwich ma three bedrooms two baths one car oversized garage large eat in kitchen cathedral ceiling from to back living room deck off of kitchen and dining room sq ft sq ft living space full walk out basement creative financing a possibility contact peg moore or ron nordstrom
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint adapters i have two brand new dayna etherprint adapters baset for sale they convert ethertalk to localtalk this is useful when wanting to hook up a localtalk network printer to a ethertalk baset network they sell for each in mac warehouse will take each guaranteed email response to atg virginia edu todd gibson
misc.forsale	turbo grafx w games for sale base unit controller all cables and hookups games kieth courage legenary axe fantasy zone victory run wrestling challenge blazing lasers military madness bloody wolf asking for all the above will ship cod call mike day eve
misc.forsale	coleco unit w games for sale selling coleco base unit with controllers atari game adapter to play atari games games ms pac man smurfs etc will ship cod price make an offer call cheryl day eve
misc.forsale	re electronic components etc i said cipher tape drives what a silly boy i was now i have zillions of messages like does that include shipping is it scsi what rom version is it will it work on a maximegalon gargantuabrain ok the deal is this if you live in the twin cities email me and set up a time sure you can drop round and grab one for a tenner else min order drives shipping no guarantees they are good for any purpose at all they look newish clean no technical negotiations they are model floppytape part revision d pin floppy style connector on the back else they go in the bin life is too short for extended negotiations over items cheers mike
misc.forsale	airline ticket for sale airline ticket ata to cincinnati i have a friend who has one ticket from atlanta to cin oh it is one seat in economy class on delta the ticket is the return half of a round trip it is currently in a woman s name she does not need to fly back need to sell the ticket flyer would go standby because ticket is dated asking i am posting this for my friend please do not email responses to me instead contact rick at michael davis smith georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	computer equipment garage sale computer equipment garage sale i ve finally decided to clean out my closets and get rid of some of the stuff that is broken or not being used by me i ve put together a list and indicated what i think each item is worth this is just my estimate and i am very open to any offers including trades i m currently looking for some cd roms that will work with a mac cd rom player cd caddies hd floppy disks any used macintosh software a mhz co processor or basically anything you have lying around cans of soup the neighbor s cat etc make me an offer no offer will be overlooked i really want to get rid of this stuff ok here s the list meg scsi hard drive conner model cp i bought this from a guy at a swap meet to use with my macintosh unfortunately i can t seem to get it to work with the scsi controller in my computer the guy tested it with his pc and printed out a copy of the norton disk doctor report which says it has no bad sectors i ll send you a copy i was dumb enough not to get his phone number so i can t return it to him the drive has many jumpers on it which i don t know how to set so maybe that s the problem i was quite disappointed that it didn t work so i m trying to minimize my losses meg scsi hard drive conner model cp same situation as above i bought both of these drives from the same guy despite the different model numbers they are the same exact drive same report from ndd i have one for each drive will be included meg sony scsi hard drive sony model srd a the drive mechanism is completely trashed this hard drive was in my computer mac se and had a stiction problem well repeated banging on the side of the computer resulted in a head crash yes metal scraping metal which was not too pleasant to listen to still the scsi controller card is in good working order and can be used for parts or a project meg seagate hh scsi hard drive model st n i originally bought this drive because it had a small stiction problem and i though that i could fix it well i determined that the drive mechanism was fine and that it was a controller problem motor controller wasn t sending proper signals well after taking the controller off the drive looking at it and putting it back together i realized that i accidentally severed one of the small flat cables that connect the drive to the controller i tried to solder it but i m not that good at soldering so i couldn t do it worked perfectly before i messed up i used it as a temporary drive when the sony above crashed on me also loaded the drive with about twenty mac applications worth well over claris cad ms word think c excel and many others i think all it needs is a resoldering of that cable you also get all the software on the drive if you can accept being a pirate i only ask that you delete my data files from the drive i was really angry when i broke that connection and then couldn t fix it i just don t have time to play with it any more at t isdn modem this is for use on digital phone systems if you know what this is or would like technical information on it let me know i have some tech documents on it is supposed to be the same thing as an at t digital phone but without the phone part it seems to be in working order passes self test perfectly ok i have no idea how this is worth let me know if you re interested motorola coprocessor i haven t tested this one out yet but if anyone is interested i will get it tested out to make sure that it works i had trouble using it with my accelerator board but then i spoke to the manufacturer of the board and found out it couldn t be used without another controller chip when i was looking around to buy one new the prices were around i will guarantee this to work cga card half length bit wasn t working last time i checked although i think i was using a bad monitor k floppy drive ibm drive type guaranteed to work because when i took it out of the pc it was working k floppy drive toshiba model number nd de a guaranteed to work came out of same pc as above floppy drives can t guarantee that these will work i don t even know if they are low or high density drives i don t have any method of testing them panasonic model number ju acg there s another number on it panasonic model number ju agg there s also another number on it h toshiba model number nd de virtually identical to the one above each drive ps drive these things are proprietary so i can t test it but i think it works not sure if it s high density or low density but i suppose someone who is looking for one would know model number dfl c a i think these things are expensive to replace mfm hard drive controller cards i ve got three of these and i have no way of testing them two of them are bit cards and one is a sixteen bit card with a floppy controller built in for the bits for the bit card w floppy interesting cable seems to convert from a vga plug to an ega plug that is standard nine pin to vga pin made by hewlett packard part no d i ve sold stuff like this before and it was a huge success with many satisfied people trading or bartering stuff they didn t need anymore i usually ship through the u s postal service haven t had any problems yet and the shipping costs will be split or negotiated well that s all folks as i said before no offer will be refused if you can convince me to give ocit to you instead of throwing it out try i hate to throw away stuff wayne wdempsey athena mit edu
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article apr cabell vcu edu his rrb cabell vcu edu robert r bower writes didn t mcdonald s sell copies of dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes in toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru i ll take a mcrib a mcchicken and a copy of debbie does mcdallas to go do you want fries and napkins with that this makes perfect sense if you think about it cheap food and cheap movies on the cheapest format you feel full but the nutritional quality just ain t there feast a little buy beta bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post i m really going to start studying really greg ed beta simply the best ed beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available video magazine nov page manufacturers may have a point when they perceive the u s consumer electronics market as unsophisticated videomaker march page
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because i am moving those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the deal with me before so here i am trying to post another message againt i don t mean to waste your valuable time basic instinct born on the forth of july backdraft presumed innocent the prince of tides dance of wolves all the prices are including shipping you get all of them for package deals are very welcome so make me an offer douglas kou hiram college koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added cyberrad marvel presents spiderman special etc title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same twice cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	items forsale items for sale i will take offers for the following items i reserve the right to refuse any offers howard miller clock it chimes like a grandfather clock painting a tiger in the snow it is a beautiful painting the tiger looks like it can jump off of the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size a rows of diamonds b k gold call or email me donald walker hm wk
misc.forsale	adaptec scsi mc controller i m selling an adaptec scsi controller card i works with microchannel machines only the data transfer rate is very fast i get about meg sec with my scsi hard drive and that s with relatively slow ns ram on a card it s a scsi true bus mastering dma device and goes for around bought new i m including the new ez scsi software for speedy win performance and easy configuration i m selling it for and i ll pay the cod shipping please email me directly and either give me your phone with your offer or i ll respond with mine i hope we can both benefit from the sale of this microchannel device it s a great product
misc.forsale	pg min talaris laser printer sale talaris lazer printer pg min i have a lazer printer from talaris that suppose to printer pg min i have never set it up to use because i did not expect it to be any bigger than a lazerjet iip but i wrong it was purshase used when a company liquidated it i will sale it for shipping reply if interested obo email felicia csd csd uwm edu or phone leave message
misc.forsale	cs and misc books and ultrix manual for sale hi it s time to clean my shelf all price include shipping so you don t have to worry about it just pay the amount you see name cover publisher year origin now the ultimate dos heavy programmer s manual hard windcrest bit mapped graphics hard windcrest algorithms in c hard addison wesley file structure hard addison wesley programming with data structure pascal version soft prentice hall digital design hard wiley numerical analysis hard pws kent w disk batch files to go soft mcgraw hill advanced batch w disk file programming soft mcgraw hill computer graphics principle and heavy practice hard addison wesley structure and interpreter of computer program hard macgraw hill c an advanced introduction hard bell tele lab building c library soft windcrest x window system c lib and protocol reference soft digital press oh pascal soft w w norton differential equation hard pws kent applied discrete structure for computer science hard macmillan programming in c soft prentice hall using wordperfect soft houghton free with purchase linear algebra hard addison wesley dec station w disks ms dos binders and gw basic box digital the big gray book the next step with ultrix ultrix sql net user s guide database adminstrator s guide reference manual error message dictionary operation guide guide to diskless management services guide to server setup guide to remote installation service guide to bind hesiod service guide to the network file system guide to ethernet communication servers introduction to networking and distributed system service guide to the yellow page service guide to backup and restore guide to shutdown and startup guide to disk maintenance guide to kerberos gudie to the uucp utility guide to ibm terminal emulation for vax processors guide to configuration file maintenance guide to scamp guide to printer clients guide to adminstrator s security guide to the location broker guide to system and network setup guide to system environment setup guide to software licensing guide to system exercise guide to error logger guide to system crash recovery guide to the nawk utility security guide for the users kernal message reference manual reference page section special files file formats macro package and conventions asking for obo it s pretty heavy though please e mail if you feel interested thank you
misc.forsale	uk only wanted vectrex game system uk only title says it all i m after a vectrex system if you have one and want to get rid of it let me know i can offer cash or possible trades with megadrive and snes games cheers marc on the net no one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
misc.forsale	wanted technics turntables simple eh rather get em used than new must guarantee
misc.forsale	furniture need nice furnishings for your apartment or house we have glass topped wood sides and chrome edging coffee and end tables for sale the coffee tables are approximately five feet in length and two feet wide the end tables are ft x ft all the glass is clear no scratches first takes all thanks for reading art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem pa ma bell
misc.forsale	snowboard burton air snowboard multiflex bindings triple strap on back binding board bag and leash included recently toned and waxed firm rt albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	meg simms for sale hello i have simms for sale they are megabyte each and are of the chip variety these are very high quality simms and are nearly brand new best of all they are nanoseconds the fastest available please make an offer i prefer to sell all four simms to the same person to lessen shipping costs but if you just want one or two please make an offer anyway thanks a lot bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale in article apr en ecn purdue edu davisonj en ecn purdue edu john m davison writes in article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off please tell me where i can get a cd on the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu what s so special about this label that their discs are going for upwards of more than most retail outlets average prices for cds mark
misc.forsale	nintendo system w super mario shipping obo 
misc.forsale	jet ski forsale for sale kawasaki ts tandum seating color white with blue and red jet ski runs great and looks good ziemans trailer with locking utility box color black ziemans trailer is less than a year old both have been garaged kept and well maintained for both to be sold as a set only if interested call me at leave message i will return your call asap thanks tim ryan standard disclaimer applies
misc.forsale	tenor saxophone for sale selmer mark vii tenor saxophone used for college jazz band performances i will include a copy of the new real book whick is a collection of jazz classics and various other standards paid for it other extras included asking we can discuss shipping and cod charges send me some e mail or call me home or school davis jd longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	harsh environments was re nikonos iv etc etc in article apr leland stanford edu brett glass glass leland stanford edu writes this posting reminded me about a long standing question i ve had does it pay to consider an underwater camera for pictures taken on land but in harsh environments e g rain snow heat cold mud dust or are the lenses etc all tuned for the refractive index of water i have had a nikon l aw since unfortunately it is no longer made it is a p s sealed to resist water to a depth of feet it is not really an underwater camera but it has been great in wet and dusty conditions it takes aa batteries hooray it has the solid heavy feel of old style nikons and has taken all the abuse i have been able to give it this includes a lot of water rain river and sea desert and beach sand as well as being used as a weapon against a mugger shouting and swinging the camera by the strap didn t scare the mugger away hitting him with the flying camera did this is my never be without a camera camera the current water resistant sport touch i think is the name model is nothing like as solid or well sealed don mackie his opinions
misc.forsale	video tapes for sale adult i have the following playboy videos for sale email me if interested all are original tapes of course in original boxes video playmate calendar wet wild ii sexy lingerie ii sexy lingerie iii prices are each for for or all for i also have a bunch of magazines playboy penthouse hustler chic club and more email me if interested in those too i m willing to sell all or part of my collection cheaply justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu if builders built buildings like i write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	mac software for sale i have the following macintosh software for sale email me if interested or for complete descriptions all prices are negotiable but first offer at asking price gets it prices include first class day shipping outside u s extra oids expert color paint robosport harpoon stratego accolade version authorized by milton bradley one on one dr j bird original version machines only macfoxes adult game strip poker blackjack adult game justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu if builders built buildings like i write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	ski supplies we have the following ski equipment for sale cm poles white salomon boots sx size ladies to in womens size shoe two unused in soles included what s left of a ski set bought new hardly used excellent condition asking for the entire package you pay shipping and cod charges send me some e mail i will provide further discriptions upon request davis jd longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	new mitsumi mice for sale i have of these mice which are just taking up space in my office please buy them the price is only and it will only cost you to ship usps if you prepay here is all i know about them mice button high resolution cpi the mice are acutally quite comfortable much like the new hp ergo mouse snugs the hand scott harris sharris chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	turbo graphx games forsale revised list i have the following turbo graphx games for sale all have the cases and instructions i m asking a piece for the games and for s h you pay the for the first game only please email replies to jth bach udel edu alien crush world class baseball takin it to the hoop psychosis sidearms keith courage legendary axe legendary axe ii splatterhouse ninja spirit tiger road power golf world sports competition space harrier silent debugers cyber core final lap twin devil s crush keith courage galaga aline crush victory run blazing lazers i have the following tg cd rom games forsale i m asking each and s h for the first game y s book i ii cd final zone ii cd valis iii cd y s iii wanderers from y s cd dragon slayer cd rom r cosmic fantasy cd
misc.forsale	united nations souvenir folders cheap official united nations souvenir folders each contains all the stamps issued for that year along with descriptive information regarding each issue the stamps are mint never hinged the retail not catalog prices listed are from the leading united nations dealer mike armus the stamps were issued for use by the u n offices in new york and geneva switzerland price take the current retail price for any folder take or more folders take off the total take all folders take off the total in many cases these folders are priced at or below the face value of the stamps particularly the geneva ones year new york geneva shipping add cents per folder to cover actual first class shipping cost foreign orders i will charge the actual shipping cost airmail let me know how many folders you want thanks
misc.forsale	snes games forsale i have the following snes games forsale the ones with have instructions and the other ones have no instructions romance of the three kingdoms ii populous legend of zelda a link to the past soul blazer please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu i ask for for s h for one game if you buy more than one i still only need thanks jay
misc.forsale	laser discs forsale i have the following laser discs forsale all are in original covers they are all in excellent condition i ve watched them so many times and i can t see myself watching them again i m asking per disc terminator road warrior hook ghost robo cop repo man romancing the stone lost boys dark man robinhoood prince of thieves total recall i ask for s h for the first laser disc if you buy more than one the will cover them all
misc.forsale	radar detector forsale i have a uniden visor clip sized radar detector with x k and ka band forsale has city highway and audio mute options and comes with cigarette lighter attachment i m asking please e mail replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	hot shots adult cards for sale recently i got a case of hot shots cards unfortunately i had not planned on keeping all of them i sort of got stuck with the case i m not going to mention any names though so i am trying to sell off most or all minus a set for myself if you have any interest in a set a box or any singles please let me know the set has cards each card features a great looking woman in various stages of dress some nude semi nude lingerie dressed percent are gorgeous i feel there are subsets girl girl girls through promo cards through also numbered of through of emperor s all stars through stripping empress through also i am supposed to be getting some holograms soon as well oh and lastly i have a very few error cards and a few cards that were originally intended to be used as card but the company changed their mind none of these cards are easy to get anyway if you have some interest in any of these cards please drop me a line as i am most eager to sell a bunch off oh and if you are interested i also have set of hot shots left and about sets of california dreaming cards as well and lastly i have promo cards for all of the cards i have mentioned and holograms as well not a lot though john heiden al cleveland freenet edu john heiden al freenet cleveland edu
misc.forsale	sharp os s for sale i have an s i d like to sell now that i m finished with my taing i don t have nearly as many appoints to miss and i d like to put the money toward a laptop asking i bought it last christmas it s in great shape and includes as an added bonus a nice padded leather carrying case blair macintyre bm cs columbia edu cs department columbia university you drive you kill from the movie roadkill
misc.forsale	ibm hardware forsale i have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this is a great card it supports x colors x k colors and x million colors i found that it also speed up windows considerably i m asking o b o for this card i also have baud modems i have docs for both but i don t have the original boxes both work fine and i d like to get each or for both please e mail all replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	emu sampler for sale emu emax ii rackmount sampler w bit stereo sampling stereo inputs outs internal sequencer voice polyphony meg internal hd stock ram meg i think perfect condition months old obo
misc.forsale	sample cd s for sale i ve got sets of sample cd s for sale set one cd s geared towards house techno pop and rap the st cd is all drum loops and drum sounds over of them the second contains analog synths basses bass loops wavestations vox loops and much much more the second set a variety of different sounds from new age to rock etc kind of a sampler cd pardon the pun both have never been used and i can supply a list of categories for the sounds if someone is seriously interested i d like for all three as they were ish new michael mail for more info
misc.forsale	dx mhz motherboard for sale 
misc.forsale	lotus forsale i have an extra copy of lotus ver for dos i d like to get for it please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	re dx mhz motherboard for sale i hate it when my posts do that dx mhz mb w meg of ns ram make offer michael
misc.forsale	sale furniture keywords all items were bought in august they are undamaged and like new if you are interested in the following please send e mail to io on the main frame or car gandalf queen size box spring and mattress queen size pine headboard sofa slate blue three pillows foot seating area drawer chest drawer chest small kitchen table and four chairs thanks car
misc.forsale	syquest drive and cartridges lower price i will take for the whole package original post follows article of misc forsale newsgroups misc forsale misc forsale computers from wgs isis msstate edu walter g seefeld subject syquest internal drive with cartridges sale or trade summary will trade mb for mb ide or sell for organization mississippi state university distribution na date tue apr gmt this drive is less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all is in excellent condition and still under warranty due to a change in system use i now need a large contiguous drive offer includes sydos i internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over mb no bad sectors or defects the installation was a breeze on my clone i will trade for something near mb ide or sell for i will also consider trading for mx pin simms at ns walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	pc games forsale i have the following pc games forsale cyber empire vga disks prophecy of the shadow vga prince of persia vga gunship vga global conquest ega kings quest v vga kings quest iv vga ancient art of war at sea ega mech warrior vga champions of krynn ega test drive iii vga balance of power ega leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards vga sentinel world i ega the bard s tale i ega skyfox ii ega bard s tale ii ega modem wars vga hillsfar ega stunt track racer ega all of the games have original boxes and all instructions manuals and copy protection devices please respond by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	borland c w app frmwrks forsale howdy all i have recently converted to microsoft visual c i no longer want my borland c w application frameworks product this version is about months old i have all of the manuals disks etc it is licensed to me but i will transfer the license to the purchaser under the accepted terms of the borland license agreement i also have a copy of the books developing windows applications with borland c james mccord sams using borland c nd ed mark lee atkinson que i d like to do is sell it all to the highest bidder under the conditions listed below i ll ship c o d to anywhere in the u s via the shipper of your choice provided they are local to me and i will pay the cod charges you just pay for the shipping the list price for the product is about i have seen it advertised for as low as i will accept the best offer over plus shipping as described above which is the list price plus i m tossing in the books listed above which are a value i will hold the bidding open through the weekend and close it sometime in the evening of please reply via email only serious offers please apply no i will not consider anything for trade nor any offers less then as i consider it a fair price regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are my own and are offered as is steve shapiro f n z fidonet org bbs n
misc.forsale	cd s for sale i have the following cd s for sale at each for or more except where a special price is noted melissa etheridge never enough sinead o connor i do not want chicago peter cetera one more story eric clapton layla from unplugged cd single beverly craven beverly craven bobby mcferrin simple pleasures lynyrd skynyrd gold and platinum double set electric light orchestra greatest hits linda ronstadt greatest hits buster movie soundtrack pretty woman movie soundtrack candy dulfer saxuality yanni dare to dream chuck mangione feels so good bobby mcferrrin and chick corea play tangerine dream stratosfear ormandy and phil orch beethoven s ninth mehta and n y phil wagner the ring highlights mata and dallas symph ravel bolero albordado rapsodie espagnole mason williams and mannhein steamroller classical gas levi and atlanta symph hindemith symphonic metamorphosis wilhelm kempff beethoven piano sonatas all are in excellent condition email for details or songlists walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	wanted large dog cage i need a large dog cage the kind you use to housebreak a dog when you are not around i have been adopted by a month old non housetrained huskey i am in the pittsburgh area my number is
misc.forsale	human alpha fetoprothein for sale dear sirs commercial firm of lithuania polius is interested for new partners and establishing business contacts at present we may offer to you the following we have human alpha fetoprothein in liquit or leofil dried state with purity not less than price per mg every month deliveries in quantity mg for more information please contact e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt fax phone viktor olesov e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt vilnius lithuania tel
misc.forsale	ti electronic organizer model ps sorry if i posted this to the wrong place wasn t sure where this should go model ps k memory storage for telephone numbers addresses memos schedule calendar calculator password protection line display full keyboard characters per line search through all data storage areas for keywords transmit to or receive entries via ibm compatible computers with optional interface kit uses aaa batteries and lithium battery for backup also has world time sound still has year service merchandise warranty left with manual sells new for asking shipping included e mail mc andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	slc notebook deal i have forsale a slc notebook very small includes the following cyrix mhz proc fast midwest micro elite series meg hard drive w stacker inch drive serial parallel megs of ram upgradable to megs shades of grey vga built in trackball very fast machine loaded with windows stacker dos carrying case and power supply bought it just months ago for and realized i don t need this much power in a notebook i was asking now the first person with takes it io maine maine edu erik sette
misc.forsale	for sale snes star fox home alone ii snes games for sale home alone star fox will trade for a good condition copy must have box docs of one of the following snes only prince of persia gods batman returns super turrican cybernator all prices include shipping all games are in excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers only please all games will be shipped inside a box with packing priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual etc the first responder offering asking price is guarenteed to get the game those just asking questions get no priority until they offer to buy the game lower offers may be considered assuming no other offers at asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard co network test division smb col hp com colorado springs co
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale new list dimensions this is a reposting cause two of the bags are out the door and i took dimensions of and important to camcorder users large padded cordura bag maker unknown orange exterior black straps and interior five outside pockets plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can be repositioned held my whole bronica system metz flash etc main chamber not incl lid and pockets is w x h x d very strong bag good for medium format users or videographers small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shipped small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar in design to us army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom fixed lens lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black sorry sold shipped coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash film etc h x h x d plus x x front pouch it looks like gore tex but i don t think it really is terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash buyer pays shipping should go ups for the others send me an adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage please contact me by email if interested everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	turbo grafx turbo cd forsale i have a turbo grafx game system with the add on cd rom system forsale i want to sell the turbo grafx turbo cd turbo pad and y s book i and ii cd for i ll split the s h charges please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	tapes and serial cables it s basement cleaning time this stuff has got to go i have two boxes of track tapes around tapes box they are free to anyone who wants to come by and pick them up they ve seen very little use if anyone wants these bad enough to ship they re yours for the cost of shipping the cod charge and a nusiance fee i have a lot of serial cables i have all kinds ribbon shielded long short m m m f whatever you want most appear to work well with pc serial ports but i will not gaurantee that tell me what you want and i ll do the best i can to match ea or shipping included no cods under you want to pay a cod charge for a cable go buy the cable at your local computer store instead it ll be cheaper i believe these cables were removed from service at a computer center they appear to be in good condition and the ones i have used have worked well i also have a kva exide ups with batteries that needs minor repair probably a logic board it weighs about pounds and is inches high i think they used to run a prime system off of it best offer over but you need to come pick it up use this to run your house from your solar panels i will consider reasonable offers on any of this stuff paul amaranth manager user services office also voicemail internet amaranth vela acs oakland edu this space bitnet amaranth oakland temporarily uucp uunet umich vela amaranth empty
misc.forsale	wanted old s record i m looking for an old album or cassette tape the group is sanford townsend the name of the album is smoke from a distant fire i think this album came out somewhere around and i believe was the first album produced by kenny loggins after he and jim messina broke up if you happen to have this album and are willing to part with it great if you don t want to part with it but are willing to copy it onto cassette i d love that too thanks jk kaufmanj ucs orst edu
misc.forsale	exchange your segacd for my software if anyone would like to get rid of their segacd for software please get in touch ive got loads of snes and genesis megadrive software id like to trade for a segacd or even partially i e ill also pay some let me know if you are interested cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	more mm slide projectors for sale i have some more mm slide projectors for sale regardless for my first post all with new light bulb no lens no remote controller all inperfect working condition kodak carousel non af kodak carousel h autofocus singer caramate ii w built in lens casette player non af singer caramate sp w built in lens casette player non af yuesea
misc.forsale	two america west tickets for sale america west airline tickets for sale two vouchers on america west airlines which can be used toward the purchase of tickets to wherever that airline goes there are no restrictions and no blackout times they re legally transferable and can be used anytime before july asking each please respond with email or voice to cheryl mathworks com the person selling the tickets or spencer world std com the person posting this article or call cheryl at x
misc.forsale	forsale mag innovision mx f x mag innovision mx f fantastic multiscan monitor that can display up to x noninterlaced with mm dot pitch if you are looking for a large crystal clear super vga monitor then this is for you call scott at or email scotts math orst edu
misc.forsale	high end car amplifiers for sale posted for a friend please reply to him car amplifiers for sale i have high end car amplifiers for sale old style rockford fosgate s these are great amps and i ve never had a minute s trouble with either of them i ve been running them on high end for quite some time front rear and have been very pleased with them in that setup but i ve also run them on low end before and they perform quite well in that situation as well i m trying to sell them because i m considering upgrading to a rockford i already own a power and i ve always liked the way the combo worked in cars i m asking a piece and list on them when i bought them was if you re interested in both of them i d be willing to come down on the price a little bit precision power this great utility amplifier is rated at x and looks brand new the shroud is unscratched and it works great this is a great low end amp because of it s high power rating into channels however i ve also had it running front or back high end before where it did very well i m asking for this amp but feel free to make me an offer on it please direct questions replies to hacker krusty gtri gatech edu chase hacker fortune presents gifts not chase cc gatech edu according to the book dcd gt a prism gatech edu hacker krusty gtri gatech edu mike goldsman o o o o o ga tech station atlanta georgia pgp key available upon request just say no to brainwashing
misc.forsale	cd s for sale i have the following cd s that i d like to sell m o d gross misconduct metal giants at early metal compilation including aerosmith mountain blue oyster cult judus priest etc metal church blessings in disguise excellent slayer hell awaits anthrax among the living whiplash power and pain dream theater images and words pull me under exodus fabulous disaster heavy death angel the ultra violence hard to find all cd s are in excellent condition no scratches or skips after checking several similar articles it seems the going rate is hence cd s are postage paid please e mail me if you are interested as i rarely read these groups i ll ship asap after receiving cash check or money order e mail me for my snail mail address tlod ss uhura cc rochester edu rochester ny
misc.forsale	vesa i am looking for a vesa local bus card to control my ide drives floppies game port parallel port and most of all my serial ports the serial ports must have sockets for the uarts and non of this intergraded chipset that generic boards have on them message was posted at outlan ersys edmonton ab ca hst and v bis try it you ll like it
misc.forsale	put any printed book on disk yes we put any book on disk for you fast and accurate we can also put any typewritten or printed articles thesis term papers etc on disk for you interested reply for details
misc.forsale	bronica sqa more i have a bronica sqa medium format camera for sale includes lenses film back and a view finder firm contact me via e mail for info live to ride ride to live jsh suned nswses navy mil any statements made here are mine alone and not the navy s as far as they know
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	sams auctionless comic sale ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list reserved means that i have made a deal with a person and i am waiting for the check to arrive reserved comics are as good as sold sorry incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers reserved vs thing vs werewolf by night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved vs johnny blaze reserved copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual uncanny x men copies each copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	very cheap motherboard novell dx motherboard with cpu megs of memory and i o ports for shipping firm let me know if you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	re microwave convection oven forsale art cdin compu com art lekoff writes first grabs it it s a sears kenmore watt unit fyi art this unit has been sold thank you for your replies there is another oven available for those still interested my mother decided to sell her spare same price to the first taker her s is strictly microwave no convection and is in equally good condition same size as our s approximately cubic feet let me know art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem pa ma bell
misc.forsale	forsale fast star lv pin printer with extras as the title says i would like to sell my star lv pin printer its a narrow colum dot matrix supports both parallel and serial interfacing prints at characters per second has a k buffer and is very dependable drop some mail if your interested in it plus shipping get the printer and extra srink wraped ribbons parallel connection cable power cord manual and one sheet of paper smile roy
misc.forsale	cordless phone to all uniden cordless phone model xe perfect working condition but base station is missing its antenna the antenna mount is intact shipping included if prepaid do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	v internal modem to all gvc technologies v bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt v v bis v v full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication by crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt v bis v mnp module providing error correction and data compression to increase throughput up to bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	wanted ibm clone dx or better a friend of mine is in the market for a system should have m of ram m hd svga monitor and card fd s w ps if you have one for sale then email me and i will forward to him thanks jonathan johnw unixhub slac stanford edu
misc.forsale	for new opened softwares games i have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid d three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus on line help up to pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail d capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use book and disks including shipping dr halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program it s a complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping obo like new items package is opened but not registered jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f as well as f f f a and f disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak f a stealth fighter the definitive simulation of america s radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world s hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti t theatre of operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul f vietnam and the middle east awesome missions to challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik iv plus shipping quattro pro make an offer gem chart graphics word publisher v make an offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	dos or for sale cheap for sale dos with original manuals box and either or disks full version not oem including all shipping charges please respond bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	all kinds of computer items for sale for sale cga card road track s grand prix disks dos packard bell dot pitch vga color monitor k the max vga card please make offers for the above merchandise what do you have to lose go ahead make an offer thanks email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	forsale thule silca pump blaupunkt radar i m selling an assortment of goods they re all in excellent shape the amp and detector were rarely used thule rack with locks for vw gti or jetta yrs silca floor bike pump pink uniden radar detector x and k bands orig blaupunkt w car amp orig shipping included in all prices interested please respond by email whsld login or sldenton cbnewsj cb att com or phone office thanks sandy
misc.forsale	datsun car for sale i have a datsun hatchbak forsale it s a blue datsun two doors three since it s a hatchback miles automatic very good condition i hate to sell it but phila insurance is outrageous i also don t need a car right now i am asking or bo call ron at or email perrault a chem upenn edu
misc.forsale	sega d glasses wanted does anyone have a pair of sega d glasses they re willing to part with or know of anywhere to acquire a pair as they don t have them around here thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
misc.forsale	stering silver necklace for sale i have a few italian made stering silver necklace for sale size are or i have it as low as shipping less than cents rope design necklace weight around grams for or so rope desgin necklace weight around gram for or so i only have a few left please respond asap thnx tatsuya
misc.forsale	ensoniq sq cross wave synthesizer for sale ensoniq sq cross wave synthesizer i have an sq for sale the sq is a powerful performance oriented synth with a limited on board sequencer i bought it because it has a very large timbral repertoire it seems to do meaty analog synth sounds as well as sounds that are considerably more digital below are a list of features extracted from the owner s manual o eight voice polyphonic poly timbral synthesizer capable of playing eight different sounds at once with dynamic stereo panning for each voice o voice section employing cross wave synthesis combine different attack and sustain wave segments to create complex dynamic sounds o sampled waves includes a drumset serve as the sound source o dynamic voice allocation each sequencer track midi channel has access to all eight voices o a full featured midi controller keyboard capable of sending eight midi program and volume changes at once keyboard is velocity sensitive and transmits receives velocity and polyphonic aftertouch o powerful matrix modulation scheme allows a very wide range of modulation sources and routings o a floppy disk drive which writes reads ordinary ds dd disks allows fast and reliable storage of up to sequences and up to sound patches on a single floppy disk also has a ram cart slot for patches that is compatible with esq ram carts o does sysex dumps to its floppy disk for any sysex capable midi device o character fluorescent display and user friendly page driven programming scheme provides a fairly humane user interface o stereo line outs and stereo headphone jack for private listening o sound programs and sequences are upwardly compatible with the esq so that sounds and sequences created for the esq can be played on the sq this sq has been the main midi controller in my studio for quite a while now it has performed ably in that role and has also been a heavily used sound source at the same time the sq seems to have been designed with this role in mind and it works very well with my software sequencer wincake in its multitimbral mode from a synthesis point of view this machine is a hybrid it uses looped short samples there are of them as sources then these waves are processed with a sophisticated dcf dca arrangement the sq is capable of great things because of its pole analog lowpass filter simply put it makes fabulous analog synth sounds but unlike most good analog synths it has a very thorough midi implementation so that it works very well with a midi sequencer what i really like most about this thing is that it is capable of making a very wide range of sounds this sq is about years old mfg date it does have an track sequencer but like most on board sequencers it is a pain to use so i have avoided it reason for sale i am selling my sq because i recently joined forces with another individual here in boston and we have more keyboards than space to put them i recommend it for someone who is getting started in sequencing and needs a powerful but economical master keyboard pricing and terms i paid for this synth a few years ago i am willing to accept average r m m s asking price is i will include a bunch of patches on sq floppy disks for the buyer of this synth as well as the original ensoniq sq owner s manual price asking everything shipping split shipping ups surface cod anywhere in the lower states craig vanderborgh verbex voice systems e mail craigv rad verbex com russell street phone littleton ma
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale im interseted in buing some of those i am a student at r i t please reply saying how to contact you ed
misc.forsale	exabyte exb mm g tape drive for sale please reply to the seller below for sale exabyte exb mm g tape drive writes g per m mm data grade tape uncompressed latest eeprom revs fully compatible with sun machines black faceplate seen very little use due to the fact that i have no mm tapes decided that money is more valuable than quick and convenient backups list catalog specials your price shipping extra please email responses to lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	x terminal x mono forsale for sale graphon x terminal monitor adjustable between landscape and portrait orientation x landscape resolution x portrait resolution diagonal screen with very small footprint rs support thin and thick ethernet connectors vt and vt emulation additional software for sun machines provided price shipping extra heavy lbs send email offers flames to lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	maxtor mb scsi maxtor xt s mb scsi drive ms access time years old external casing ja f andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	cdtv acessories s monitor subject cdtv accessories s monitor because of the questionable bids being placed for the set up i am including some guideline prices in this repost negotiable of course in anticipation of the arrival of my new computer system i am selling my cdtv and accessories i am in no rush to sell this so if you don t have the money now but may be able to get it in a few weeks make a bid and let me know i am now willing to sell the pieces separately but i will wait to sell until they are all accounted for at least cdtv and keyboard kit i will sell the monitor separately cdtv months old mint condition comes with all documentation packaging receipt etc all in mint condition demo disc i will start bidding at for this cdtv keyboard package keyboard mouse drive comes with all documention packaging receipt etc months old mint turns your cdtv into a full fledged amiga computer i will start bidding at for this s monitor a couple years old very good condition comes with all documentation packaging and receipt if i can find it i will start bdding at for this software various titles games demos etc note i have no cdtv discs all software is disc based free with package deal please send your best bid to io maine or call ask for zero batzell you can leave a message if i m not in zero z batzell cdtv owner we come in peace shoot to kill iguana owner ncc u s s heart of gold university of maine video hobbyist live long and don t panic student with a star trek tng fan mostly harmless douglas n adams fan major life the universe transfer in mind orson scott card fan and everything the enterprise is not a ship for freeloading degenerate hitchhikers
misc.forsale	camera bag sale two left all are gone except and go ahead make me an offer i can t refuse large padded cordura bag sorry sold awaiting check small nikon shoulder bag sorry gone small nikon belt pouch khaki similar to an army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom lens cleaner etc great for your extra lens when you don t want to tote a shoulder bag i think it can hold a small walkman and some tapes postage domke belt pouch sorry gone coast camera bag tan brown strap trim main and front pocket x x and x x respectively can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash or even an mm or compact vhs video camcorder material looks like gore tex but i don t think it is i think it can also hold your portable cd player with a bunch of discs headphones ac etc postage terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	dana weick he is still out there l o o k i n g f o r d a n a w e i c k he is a crook don t deal with him please help i am looking for dana weick a month ago i made a deal with him over the net i was to sell him some memory in exchang for and a cpu i thought the deal was great so i went on with it i sent him the memory cod for he was then suppose to send me the cpu i receive his cod payment on he send me a message the he sent the cpu out it has been two weeks and i didn t receive the cpu i send him numerous message asking for confirmation that the cpu was ship or what address he send it to to make sure it didn t get lost in the mail he never reply my mail i finally resorted to calling him in arizona the first call didn t get throught i got an answering machine i left him my number he didn t reply i call again the next day and he pick up the phone i asked him if he had send out the cpu he said yes but he doesn t know what address he sent it to he said that you would check his record at home and call me back the next day to my suprise he never called i then send him some more email messages he never reply again strang when the deal was being made he reply to every of my message now that he got my memory he won t even reply to me now i am still calling him but he won t pick up the phone i am also still emailing him but he won t reply my mail so if any one know this dana weick please contact him he can be reach at dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az in the day time this is his business number in the evenings this is his home number his email address is weick master lds az loral com this is our deal from weick master lds az loral com wed mar pin simms aren t hot sellers i pick them up on the upgrade market for quite often best i can do is the dx and ok you got a deal i ll trade you pins simms for an intel dx and i need you address for shippment i will ship it via cod and i ll pay shipping handling when the simms arrive there will be a charge on your part you can send the cpu to me via cod if possible my address by the way is the cpu under warranty great you can send the simms to me at dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az days evenings i would prefer us mail nd day priority it only costs the cpu is brand new install it correctly meaning don t plug it in backwards or bend any pins and i ll warranty it for months thanks on i send him and said that i got the cod payment and asked if the cpu is sent out yet is the cpu sent out yet he replied on glad the cod payment got to you ok the cpu has been sent so keep your eyes out for it be very careful when you install it be careful of static discharge bending pins during insertion and above all make absolutely certain you plug the chip in the proper orientation the chip was checked out prior to shipping and if you cook it by plugging it in backwards i won t be real sympathetic if you don t know how to tell what orientation the chip should be installed don t guess dana weick update i call him sunday his wife debbie picked up the phone she said that he was busy with his kids and he would call me back in minuets half an house went by weick didn t called i called him again and his phone was discon nected since this post i have numberous people who mail me saying that this dana weick have ripped them off we got do something about this guy he has appearrently been doing this for a few years now and he is getting away with it minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	wanted chip megabyte simms ns i am in the market for megabyte simms these must be of the chip variety and also must be nanoseconds email bitzm columbia dsu edu thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	snes ranma pt ranma pt professionally converted to play on snes asking or willing to trade for snes simearth or dragonball z bill opferman my thoughts not my employer s email opferman jupiter fnbc com leave them out of it fax thanks enjoy the buffet
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because i am moving dk subject vhs movies must sell because i am moving n dk from koutd hiramb hiram edu n dk newsgroups misc forsale rec video dk subject vhs movies must sell because i am moving dk message id apr hiramb hiram edu dk from koutd hiramb hiram edu douglas kou dk date apr dk organization hiram college dk those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks dk and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the dk deal with me before so here i am trying to post another message dk againt i don t mean to waste your valuable time dk basic instinct dk born on the forth of july dk backdraft dk presumed innocent dk the prince of tides dk dance of wolves dk all the prices are including shipping you get all of them for dk dk package deals are very welcome dk so make me an offer dk douglas kou dk hiram college dk koutd hirama hiram edu douglas hi i d like to purchase basic instinct for all of my other notes to you have been returned i don t know why it keeps saying address unknown please let me know if this movie is still available thank you jordan mcauley in atlanta dita info gw blackwlf mese com slmr ed hopper s bbs ehbbs com berkeley lake atlanta georgia usr hst v bis home of uupcb usenet for pc board
misc.forsale	movie plan from outer space wanted i m looking for a copy of bela lugosi s last film if anyone has a copy of this stinker please e mail me also if anyone knows a better place to post this please tell me eric jaron stieglitz ejs cunixb cc columbia edu school you ate the only thing i ever loved home seymour lsoh
misc.forsale	unix books the following books are up for sale all are in good to excellent condition make offers rob phavl uucp uunet phavl rob robert ransbottom general supply metals inc voice index miscellany c c unix operating system intel processor ms dos miscellany algorithms nd ed sedgewick hardbound list programmers at work lammers list software reliability musa iannino okumoto hardbound list the users guide to small computers jerry pournelle list out of the inner circle bill landreth list elementary pascal ledgard singer list c language object oriented program design with examples in c mark mullin list c language variations in c schustack list programs and data structures in c ammeraal list turbo c programmer s library jamsa list advanced turbo c hebert schildt list understanding c bruce hunter list c database development al stevens list c programmer s library purdum leslie stegemotter list dr dobbs toolbook of c dr dobb s journal list c with excellence programing proverbs henry ledgard list c the pocket reference herbert schildt list c programming guide jack purdum some wear list c programmer s toolkit w disk jack purdum list c step by step waite prata list unix and operating system the unix system v environment s r bourne list unix papers michael waite editor list unix for ms dos programmers steven mikes list the business guide to the unix system yates emerson list unix programming on the alan deikman list unix the complete reference stephen collin list unix primer plus waite martin prata list unix for programmers an introduction daniel farkas list unix for super users foxley list unix communications henderson et al list microport system v made easy learning the unix o s o reilly sv list understanding and using coff gintaras o reilly assoc list operating system design the xinu approach p c ed d comer foosum hard list microcomputer operating systems dahmke list intel processor ms dos inside the ibm pc w disk peter norton list using turbo prolog robinson list using assembly language wyatt ibm pc orientation list compute s quick easy guide to learning lotus doug wolf list advanced programming techniques james turley list intel system software writer s guide intel corp list performance programming under ms dos michael young list programmer s problem solver for the ibm pc xt at r jourdain list rob robert ransbottom it is extremely important to maintain correct attributions anonymous
misc.forsale	wanted sim city for pc hello there i am looking for sim city for pc new used please make your offer to cchu udel edu thanks chu
misc.forsale	cd singles for sale here is a list of mostly european cd singles i have for sale all are brand new and some are still shrink wrapped please e mail if interested crowded house weather with you w remixes peter gabriel blood of eden digipak w pg booklet remix of mercy street genesis never a time w dreaming while you sleep live turn it on again live tonight tonight tonight full version live brian may too much love will kill you w too much love will kill you guitar version more r e m radio song live from green world tour r e m shiny happy people w secong song losing my religion live acoustic version r e m near wild heaven w tom s diner low endgame live r e m man on the moon w non lp tracks fruity organ new orleans instrumental arms of love r e m the sidewinder sleeps tonite w non lp tracks the lions sleeps tonight fretless r e m the sidewinder sleeps tonite w non lp tracks organ song star me kitten demo version r e m everybody hurts edit w new orleans instrumental long version mandolin strum r e m everybody hurts edit w non lp tracks chance dub dark globe sting if i ever lose my faith in you w songs from mtv unplugged all this time mad about you every breath you take sting if i ever lose my faith in you same as above but in digipak form u sunday bloody sunday w remixes of two hearts beat as one new year s day u the unforgettable fire ep w the three sunrises a sort of homecoming love comes tumbling bass trap u who s gonna ride your wild horses w paint it black salome zooromancer remix can t help falling in love triple peaks remix neil young harvest moon single edit w deep forbidden lake campaigner winterlong
misc.forsale	wanted searching for music videos i am currently searching for old video tapes of music groups of the early s to the late s at first i requested vhs formats but now i m accepting either vhs mm or beta the type of format i m interested in are the type that most nite clubs or trendy clothing stores play if you do have any of these tapes just send me a reply with a few groups listed i ll reply back if the groups listed are the type i m searching for i ll gladly pay you what they are worth or trade for other movie or music videos thanks tom you are now leaving the state of southern california please buckle up thank you for visiting the earthquake state inet tsmith cerritos edu
misc.forsale	supra fax ext stand alone modem forsale supra fax modem v bis external stand alone forsale external with digital status display fax speed up to send receive compat with class group data rate v bis v bis mnp hayes compatible at command with external cable to your serial port works with pc mac amiga
misc.forsale	tapes for sale each ppd hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid or best offer multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart of rock and roll heart and soul want a new drug walking on a thin line if this is it and more hooters nervous night contains and we danced day by day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in their st tape contains cry tough i wont forget you talk dirty to me and more hall oates big bam boom contains out of touch possession obsession and more ratt out of the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say it isn t so your love all the love in the world and more plant robert shaken n stirred contains little by little journey raised on radio contains girl cant help it suzanne be good to yourself ill be alright without you why cant this night go on forever monkees then and now the best of the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear us apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university of arkansas fayetteville you know some white coral painted brown and attached to the skull with some common wood screws can make a child look like a deer
misc.forsale	ibm hardware fosale lowered prices i have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this is a great card it supports x colors x k colors and x million colors i found that it also speed up windows considerably i m asking o b o for this card i also have internal baud modems i have docs for both but i don t have the original boxes both work fine and i d like to get each or for both backups backup power supply that allows cpu and monitor to continue to operate up to minutes in event of power failure asking please e mail all replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	genesis sega cd software forsale sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved in with some friends who have genesis cd player so i m selling my whole setup i d like to sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega cd joysticks pad sewer shark cd sol feace cd sega classics cd games on cd streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes cd cd g music graphics sampler john madden cart all the games have cases and instructions and everything is in great condition i would really like to get for all this stuff the sega cd alone is worth please email responses to jth bach udel edu i m dropping the price to if i can t get that much then i won t sell it thanks jay
misc.forsale	lotus ver forsale new price i have an extra copy of lotus ver for dos this package was originally i d like to get for it please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	for sale lifecall system for sale one complete set of lifecall equipment including the base unit portable transmitter and pendant plus days free monitering service description of item convenient and secure to anyone whose home is being broken into whose parents live alone who has children or elderly parents who suffers a heart attack or stroke who is temporarily or permanently disabled and more superior features allows you to talk to the monitering center using the transmitter help will be sent to you as soon as possible allows for personal freedom and independence deal item is worth us in open market asking for or best offer interested please email at kmgoh leland stanford edu or call at will send the certificate of delivery and relevant documents to you goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to bahamas i have a certificate for round trip airfares to the bahamas expiration date is one year from now the maximum value depending on time and location is estimated at i am asking for or best offer for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to orlando vegas and reno i have a certificate for one round trip airfares to either orlando las vegas and reno lake tahoe expiration date is one year from now the maximum retail value depending on time and location is estimated at for all three locations including accommodation for days and nights at a leading hotel i am asking for or best offer purchase of tickets for a single location is possible for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to acapulco or cancun i have a certificate for one round trip airfares to either acapulco or cancun mexico expiration date is one year from now the maximum retail value depending on time and location is estimated at including accommodation for days and nights at a leading hotel i am asking for or best offer for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your ibm pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	composite monochrome monitor for sale i have a few composite monochrome monitors for sale magnovax computer monitor model number bm b rca type input for video only no audio power brightness and contrast dials in front v and h hold and position controls on the back nice little monitor that can be used for pcs amigas your vcr security monitor excellent condition i am asking for plus shipping and cod not to exceed if applicable
misc.forsale	stereo lp records for sale 
misc.forsale	sony color watchman sale o sony color watchman model fdl vhf uhf pixels inch diag screen dimensions x x bright vibrant colors and very sharp unlike the casio pocket tvs ac power adapter paid asking obo
misc.forsale	wanted mhz mc floating point co proc i d say the subject line about covers it i need a mc floating point co processor for my sun system please reply via email if you ve got one of these thingies that you ld like to sell me thanks paul l moreau storage concepts inc sr diagnostics eng deere ave email paulm storcon com irvine ca uucp storcon paulm fax
misc.forsale	speakers forsale home speakers o nht now hear this inc model ii floor tower speaker system the model ii is a pair of way design with a tweeter mid range and two woofer for low bass impedance is ohms minimum ohms the cross over points are hz and khz frequency response is rated at hz to khz db rated efficiency is db power rating is between to watts per channel black finish magnetic shielded perfect for surround sound front speakers or hifi audio speakers retail at macys asking obo a year old rarely used excellent just like new condition o bose book shelf speakers black perfect condition like new paid asking firm o b o bang olufsen beovox cx satellite speakers white brand new in box paid obo o yamaha center center paid asking firm just like new o yamaha rear channel speakers for doby surround sound paid asking just like new car speakers o boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new in box never been installed at good guys asking firm o mtx free air woofers new in box never been installed paid each at good guys asking firm
misc.forsale	kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck sale o kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck asking obo shipping original price i paid excellent condition well maintained rarely used model kx kenwood audiophile series kenwood highend stereo component programmable playback with memory system used to program the playback order if selection program is stored in ram random access memory system with digital display of the song being played counter memory index when this mode is selected count of the tape counter can be stored in memory this function is useful when it is necessary to stop of restart the tape at during fast forward or rewind search mode searching for a selection skipping a selection or repeating a selection can be preformed at a touch time stand by switch this is used along with an audio timer when an unattended timer recording or timer playback is performed dolby nr with mpx filter bias adjustment used to obtain optimum bias that matches the type of type to be played tape selector switch cro fecr normal metal rec mute key when recording press this key to delete undesired portions between programs such as announcements and commercials when this key is pressed the tape runs forwards for seconds to make an unrecorded section then the pause function automatically stops the tape to restart recording press pause key once flurescent peak program meters rec level controls phone jack mic jacks input selector switch specs type front loading stereo cassette deck w dolby nr system track system track channel stereo mono recording playback heads record and playback head x amorphous alloy erase head x double gap ferrite motor motors frequency response normol tape hz to hz hz to hzm db cro tape hz to hz hz to hzm db fecr tape hz to hz hz to hzm db metal tape hz to hz hz to hzm db signal to noise ratio dolby nr on db metal tape dolby nr off db metal tape harmonic distortion less that wow flutter w r m s dimensions w mm h mm
misc.forsale	sale localbus mb w cpu weitek et k video ide etc cad setup for sale g plb local bus motherboard can use up to mb of simms k m m expansion slots bit slots bit slot weitek co processor socket mhz intel cpu mhz weitek math co processor g host local bus et video card based on tseng labs et chip design supports resolutions up to x interlaced or non interlaced uses ramdac to allow up to k colors in x k colors in x register level compatible with cga ega vga mda software drivers available for symphony autocad autoshade windows wordperfect vesa and a emulation also contained on the card local bus ide controller floppy disk controller two fully configuarable serial ports parallel port game port i used this setup to run autocad and d studio the combination of local bus and the weitek co processor made for very fast cad and modeling work the weitek coprocessor can cut d studio render times in half and sometimes more it also increases redraws and regens when modeling in both d studio and autocad everything is less than a year old i am asking shipping for the whole package please respond via email thanks jason tobias jtobias photon tamu edu
misc.forsale	electronic typewriter needed wanted word processing typewriter a friend is looking for a wordproccing electronic typewriter preferably with char display and spelling correction send info to the addresses below thanks steve you know i think we should put some mountains here otherwise what are all of the characters going to fall off of laurie anderson stephen crume scrume magnus acs ohio state edu scrume magnus acs ohio state edu ohstmvsa bitnet
misc.forsale	re test in article r lu s d bigboote wpi edu coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates writes from coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates subject test date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute test failed
misc.forsale	misc car audio forsale o denon dcr high power pull out cassette deck with cd changer control features w x theft prevention chassis pull out station presets fm am denon optimum reception system iv fm circuitry auto high blend and fm pulse noise cancellor dolby b nr key off head release flexible fader internal front amp to rear amp and or internal front amp to internal rear amp auto reverse cassette mechanism up down manual seek tuning music sensor stereo mono fm local switches metal tape switch din e with easy installation lock in sleeve night illumination with dash light dimmer lead preset scan cd changer control random play all of tracks on a disc automatic manual search excellent condition with manual asking shipping o yamaha ypa power amplifier car audio features selectable mode power output w x ch or w x ch all w extremely low distortion thd low rfi circuit effectively eliminates radio frequency interference which might arise from dc dc conversion full protection circuitry protects amplifier from potential damaged caused by overload short circuiting dc leakage excessive heat or mis wiring input level adjustment allows you to complement your system with any audio component gold plated rca jack ensures a durable optimum contact even under rugged road conditions remote power links the entire system s on off with the cassette receiver s ot tuner s power switch screw terminals allow simple wiring connections power fuse replacement is a simple one step operation alternater noise reduction circuitry is effectively suppressed during driving specifications continuous power output per channel ohms channels driven with thd hz khz w w with thd khz w w per channel ohms channels driven with thd hz khz w btl with thd khz w btl speaker impedance to ohms frequency response at w ohms hz to khz db signals to noise ratio db total harmonic distortion at w w khz ohms khz lpf dimensions w x h x d x x mm weight lbs oz list price this is one of the nicest cleanest amp that i have even owned i am using two of these in my car this is just an extra one that i don t really need if you are in the bay area and like to listen to it first let me know asking firm shipping brand new in box never been installed o boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new in box never been installed at good guys asking firm o mtx free air woofers new in box never been installed paid each at good guys asking firm o ungo box top of the line auto alarm with twin buttons remote patented electronic motion shock sensor parking light flasher ignition kill panic mode power door lock unlocking control led flashing status light arms all doors hood and trunk etc news in box firm
misc.forsale	playboy magazines my roommate left me his playboy collection which he no longer wants so i m offering them to the general public that s you make an offer for the entire collection i will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method of shipping from bethlehem pa february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november la toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price is right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls of the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from we got it made sex in cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january th anniversary issue collector s edition february year in sex rio s grand pom simone eden march la toya jackson pom laurie wood august women of wall st diana lee from license to kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex in cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls of the southwest conference pom shannon long november women of washington sex in cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars of lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex in cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	re not all deals are bad thomas arneberg x cf dev toma baritone wrote in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes i just wanted to let you know that there are a few honest and good people out there even outside of iowa i m sorry if anyone thinks that i am wasting space but i thought you might want some relief from the so and so is a thief posts not that i think we shouldn t hear about the bad deals but it would be nice to hear some good news once in a while this was nice of kevin to post this but just so no one is misled the vast majority of usenetters are honest and good people in fact in the latest study of all net deals went off smoothly without a hitch it s just that the few bad ones are what get all the publicity agreed i have yet to run into a problem in deals over the net and i have bought things from cds plenty to a full computer the only small problem that i have had was with ups rather than the seller besides complaints are always what get the publicity when something goes wrong people complain rarely have i seen posts stating how well a deal went through i guess kevin is practically a first i d rather be swimming samuel pedroza ibm austin awsd e mail pedroza mccloud austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com speaking only for myself not ibm
misc.forsale	for sale pocket ethernet adapter xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any pc with a parallel port to the network make offer sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	stereo equipment speakers for sale keywords polk sansui akai stereo for sale polk rta speakers sansui z watt rx akai csm rm or best offer a friend asked me to post this for him if you are interested or want more information call him do not reply to me thanks call carl leave a message if he is not there
misc.forsale	mfm hd mb mb seagate st hh mb ibm fh mb they all are mfm type and in good working condition buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	cheap hard drives for your pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	xt keyboard only k the title says all not ibm brand eric
misc.forsale	deskjet and accessories forsale i have for sale the following hewlett packard deskjet additional deskjet ink cartridges ft parallel printer cable the printer is approx years old months of use and then a year in storage during my relocation from illinois to columbus and in excellent condition all original manuals and boxes are included the selling price is for the entire package unwilling to break it up because what good would cartridges do me without a printer if interested call either or you can also respond via e mail ricardo rollins e mail rollins cblph att com at t bell laboratories voice e broad st disclaimer opinions expressed are not mine columbus oh unless they re morally ethically and politically correct
misc.forsale	counterpoint sa tube power amp counterpoint sa watts per channel very very warm tube sound great for warming up cds excellent shape asking thanks tom nezwek
misc.forsale	nice telecope for sale tasco eb x x mm used once looks like new worth sell only buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale mazda glc k miles charcoal grey dr automatic transmission a c stereo system with way speaker rear window defrost cruise control new water pump front tires headlight heat shield year old battery and transmission well maintained with all records of purchase and service inspection done in feb good condition reason for selling moving out of austin negotiable must see to appreciate call or leave message on answering machine at or email to sc che utexas edu sulagna chatterjee department of chemical engineering sc che utexas edu university of texas austin tx chcu bongo cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	mac lcii for sale i have a mac lcii purchased last august just the cpu and mouse no monitor or keyboard obo peter white pw csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
misc.forsale	wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred i would like to buy a channel multitrack recorder i would prefer a cassette machine such as those made by fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel to reel as well write me if you know of anything thanks w craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton ca dept of systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa on canada k s b fax dept w craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton ca dept of systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa on canada k s b fax dept
misc.forsale	meg western digital ide hard drive for sale i am selling a western digital meg ide hd the caviar model the access time is ms and it has a built in cache it is brand new still in the original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	split a scanner ram toaster tbc svhs vcr scope sorry for the frequency of the posting i m in a time crunch i m selling my toys so i can afford a house amiga mhz built in fpu mmu megs of ram megs of video ram expandable to gigabytes a scsi controller fujitsu m scsi drive ms years warranty year of on site service remaining obo epson es c full page dpi bit color scanner w sware and adpro loader software standalone and adpro loader docs cable supra faxmodem v bis k latest roms scsi cd rom drive ms internal mitsubishi diamondscan aum multisync khz hz analog rgb ttl video inputs all of the above obo less than original amiga toaster system amiga zeus mhz fpu and mmu built in year warranty megs of ram meg of video memory quantum prodrive m scsi drive personal tbc ii time base correctors s video and composite docs sware video toaster with lots of fonts and objects and toastervision toastervision arexx sequencing toaster croutons framestore compress instructional video scsi cd rom drive sony slvr uc svhs vcr new warranty a color rgb composite yc monitors pioneer video disc player cld rf in out composite out rock solid sync generator multi format video disc players cd obo i will parcel this stuff out if necessary please send offers meade c newtonian reflector telescope aperture f very heavy duty mount clock drive dual axis corrector with joystick and ac or dc drive fiberglassed tube for a bit more strength finder scopes x mm finder scope mm finder scope with diagonal holder and mm eyepiece barrel for eyepieces includes adapter for eyepieces mm eyepiece mm or mm eyepiece take your pick both for more manuals it needs to be collimated but is otherwise in superb condition i d really prefer to sell locally due to its size maxtor s meg formatted fh ms in sun shoebox all software listed below is for the amiga comes with boxes diskettes manuals and in many cases are unopened containing registration cards mean golf greg norman s shark attack superstar ice hockey jack nicklaus microbot d design disk pga tour golf renegade balance of power world trophy soccer waterloo omni play basketball all above software cadence treadmill used for about month manual lcd panel built in computer must sell locally due to size bought for asking this a posted for a friend please email him at mqk um cc umich edu amiga megs ram m scsi drive scsi controller a monitor obo thanks ralph please call after pm or send email best way to reach me rps arbortext com gilgalad dip eecs umich edu ralph seguin glencoe hills dr ann arbor mi
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car is in excellent running condition mi on new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio am fm upholstery in great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car s previous owner had a minor front end collision the right front nose is dented and patched up with bondo i have the hard to find part needed to repair this damage besides that damage the car is in excellent condition bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after on weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale custom couch and piano location corona del mar ca orange county for sale contemporary custom couch long cushions solid black raw silk like material rolled armrests clean design excellent condition left behind parents when moved out of state or best offer for sale wurlitzer console piano w bench cherry wood great condition or best offer contact dell or louise williams or
misc.forsale	john m bell any luck catching him yet i was one of the unfortunate people to run into this guy i sent him cash stupid i know for cds that was the last i heard of him i know there were some other people ripped off by this guy has there been any advances in tracking him down tom n
misc.forsale	wanted tickets to cleveland phantom of the opera show i need tickets to the cleveland showing of phantom of the opera i will pay face value for tickets in the dollar and lower range preferably a matinee show but any in middle to late may will be bought please leave mail
misc.forsale	bps v modem to all gvc technologies v bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt v v bis v v full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication by crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt v bis v mnp module providing error correction and data compression to increase throughput up to bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	informix wingz dos os for sale for sale informix wingz graphic spreadsheet with hyperscript version runs under windows network ready distribution brand new unopened shipping not included email queries responses flames to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	sun scsi host adapter for sale please reply to the seller below for sale sun scsi host adapter assembly brand new in unopened mylar sun part no pin dsub external connector compatible with sun machines available march originally purchased for eighteen months ago please email offers to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	comic book sale hello my name is john and i have the following comic books for sale please feel free to make a bid if you d like add one dollar for shipping usa remember to e mail your replies to oeth iscsvax uni edu as i am not a regular on this group thank you marvel silver surfer current series copies x factor copies excalibur the first square bound the punisher copies dc comics watchmen one copy each the omega men is the first lobo appearance green arrow the longbow hunters copies all autographed by mike grell copies only one copy alternate comic companies get this teenage mutant ninja turtles not reprints auto graphed by kevin eastman and michaelangelo donatello aliens by darkhorse press copies whitman comics star trek autographed by james doohan you know scotty thank you again for your time john oeth iscsvax uni edu
misc.forsale	minolta master series c vhs c camcorder forsale for sale minolta master series c vhs c camcorder forsale multidimensional autofocus system x power zoom charge coupled device dual area autoexposure system for backlit subjects high speed digital shutter sec dual mode self timer date time insert linear tape counter power focus advanced auto white balance system mic jack dc out remote connector earphone minijack excellent condition used several times in two years original box and packing ac adapter charger vac u one standard vbp min one extra vbp min cassette adapter ad for full size vhs viewing bunch of miscellaneous extras rf adapter cords etc available immediately price us firm shipping extra please email responses to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	re for sale pocket ethernet adapter in article pledgec fu mue netcom com pledge netcom com alan mclachlan writes xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any pc with a parallel port to the network make offer note the device has never been used ie still in plastic and is baset sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	gateway telepath fax modem for sale gateway fax modem send receive fax baud send receive up to baud more never been used comes with software crosstalk winfax new from gateway only sold to gateway customer will fit into your at bus asking for obo
misc.forsale	mini vacation package for sale i have a following acapulco cancun mini vacation voucher for sale voucher entitles the holder to one roundtrip airfare and three days two nights lodging for one or two adults in acapulco or cancun your choice mexico you have months to use the voucher all reservations must be made days in advance holiday and peak periods are excluded flights generally depart mid week usually on tuesdays from more than major airports additional air transportation for additional person will be made available fully refundable deposit is required it should be sent along with the voucher to casablanca express by june after that you will get the reservation request form in which you have one year to travel this package doesn t include meals hotel taxes and gratuities the voucher is offered by casablanca express balboa blvd ste encino ca approximate retail value of the voucher is cited to be the voucher is fully transferable best offer takes it greg landsberg sbhep phy sunysb edu
misc.forsale	gt bmx bike obo apple iie computer extras obo please do not reply to this account posting for a friend gt bmx bike chrome frame blue alloy parts z rims mint condition asking obo apple iie k floppy drive monitor okidata microline printer modem and disks of stuff asking obo call ariel and leave a message if i m not there again do not reply to this account posting for a friend
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale brand new gb seagate scsi hard drive ms access time full height size only s h leave e mail if interested
misc.forsale	decservers for sale i have the following items that i have no further use for and am will to accept best offers on either or both brand new decserver decserver mc if you are interested send your best offers thanks
misc.forsale	stereo lps for sale updated list 
misc.forsale	lps for sale 
misc.forsale	re don t deal with this man dana weick minh anh pham writes l o o k i n g f o r d a n a w e i c k he is ripping of people don t deal with him please help i am looking for dana weick a month ago i made a deal with him over the net i was to sell him some memory in exchang for and a cpu i thought the deal was great so i went on with it dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az in the day time in the evenings his email address is weick master lds az loral com update no i or my friends with me now have not delt with him but we did try to call him and there s no answer at his phone the call was made at midnight est god knows what time that is in arizona we ll try again later anybody want to saturate his mail box michael c sidman mike snowhite eeap cwru edu electrical engineering and applied physics case western reserve university cleveland it s not hell cleveland ohio but a damn good simulation
misc.forsale	cordless telephone answering machine for sale i have a few just bought a new phone answering machine combo so i really don t need my present setup both items are in great condition prices do not include shipping if you have any questions contact me by e mail or call me at darryl toshiba ft cordless phone rubber antenna number memory at t answering machine remote operation message retrieval reset ogm change toll saving feature single tape operation
misc.forsale	re pool table for sale in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth w miller writes ken well tell us about your pool table andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
misc.forsale	re waterbed for sale in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth w miller writes ken again tell us about it ken andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
misc.forsale	receiver amp i have a sherwood stereo receiver which i received as a gift and would like to sell as i already own a system it is the sherwood model rx r it is brand new still factory sealed this is a high quality surround sound amp watts watts dynamic headroom power very highly rated by consumer reports march has audio inputs and pre amp and main amp connection jacks for added flexibility includes year factory warranty comes with remote asking reply subject receiver thanks pwr phys physics ucf edu
misc.forsale	re hp laserjet iii for sale in article r innsm aludra usc edu yuanchie aludra usc edu roger y hsu writes hi i have a hp laserjet iii for sale it s been printed for less than pages according the self test report i am asking for it if interested please e mail thanks you can get a new newer model for a cheaper price thru mail order i believed in reincarnation in a former life
misc.forsale	re don t deal with this man dana weick well i m not going to quote the message but anyhow mail fraud is a federal offence punnishable by time and big b i g f i n e s what you can do is contact the local authorities in arizona where this scammer resides inform them of the situation if you have proof of the transaction that would also help and they should be able to take it from there yeah this guy can get heavily penalized for this don t think that just because you have never met he cannot be prosecuted take him d o w n hope i m not being too foreward inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
misc.forsale	re notebook computer wanted i have a powerbook that is over year old with no warranty but in perfect condition with original apple fax modem that i would consider selling you for around a get back to me with what you think would be equitable arrangements sp have all manuals and system disks some software in boxes and loaded but threw out the mac packaging ts origin hp nemesis ph jeff lombardi via swashnet node uucp scicom nemsis jeff lombardi internet jeff lombardi nemsis
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them all are near mint to mint condition title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same sold cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	looking for audio video computer furniture items unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind for ibm used memory expansion card for ps model z memory for ps model z new or used high density mb disk drive external non computer equip tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	zenith mhz mb hard disk zcm i have the following machine for sale zenith mhz machine mb hard disk inch mb floppy drive mb floppy drive mb of ram vga card zcm ftm flat tension mask vga color monitor flat screen non glare key keyboard serial ports parallel port original manuals that it came with in excellent condition or best reasonable offer arkady y altman aya csg rtsg mot com
misc.forsale	wanted lcd overhead mon wanted an lcd overhead monitor for my school cga looking for one in fairly good shape but the school doesn t have alot of money to spend if you have one or know of one for sale please e mail me thanks jonathan jonathan evans commlink wariat org ac cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	trailer for sale trailer for sale hooper auto transport trailer x flatbed ton gross weight capacity tandem axle suspension x mh nylon tires comes with a spare tire electric brakes stop lights turn signals loading ramps tilt for towing removable front steel fence removable stake sides for attaching sideboards tiedowns etc rigged for hauling automobile tractor equipment etc less than miles since new serialized with title and registration papers for sale by original owner big hook end chain and web ratchet tiedown negotiable greg hering senior software analyst phone aeronautical systems msd fax intergraph corporation internet glhering ingr com huntsville al mailstop lr a
misc.forsale	bladerunner in line skates for sale i need to sell two pairs of bladerunner in line skates we don t use them one is size and one is size they are less than a year old and were used very little generally in the corridor they are in very good condition they sell at lechmere for we still have the boxes if you want them and we d like to get obo for them please respond by e mail michele matthews
misc.forsale	electronic music software winsong for windows like new i just received a music software winsong for windows and found that it needs a midi sound card sound blaster pro is preferred to have its fantastic features show up as i don t have the plan to add a sound card now i am putting it here for sale it s listed on april issue of windows magazine and i paid as the total i am asking around with shipping included winsong for windows composer sequencer tape deck and juke box all in one it s a word processor for music you can write and edit cut paste move and copy etc notes and symbols play and print your composition it s graphical user interface works like a multi track tape recorder up to musical tracks can be arranged for play record rewind fast forward and stop it plays music on any midi compatible instrument piano guitar drum set saxophone clarinet organ and many you do not need to be a musician to use this software the on line manual is handy for musicians it s great as writing music is not a tedious and stifling aspect almost new one week old unregistered including shipping obo please be reasonable
misc.forsale	re wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred scratch sce carleton ca writes i would like to buy a channel multitrack recorder i would prefer a cassette machine such as those made by fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel to reel as well write me if you know of anything try used sound preston near gladstone and songbird music gladstone near bank street both have used multi tracks they are listed in the phone book also see the yellow pages under musical equipment used
misc.forsale	wanted center channel pref infinity or polk i m interested in a center channel for my home theater if yu have one and would be interested in selling one please let me know thanks prefer ably an infinity or polk audio
misc.forsale	price slashed comics of overstreet price guide updated april most comics here are priced at below the overstreet price guide all comics are in near mint to mint condition title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee s first work at marvel amazing spider man peter david script human torch r origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin vs green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin c america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app spider man holo c annual annual st solo venom story annual new warriors venom archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends of the dark knight blue cover batman shadow of the bat still in polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback st printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death s head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra nd appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents st app concrete st printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler x men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator st printing defenders intro new defenders double size x factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk vs the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four vs new warriors page th anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider may origin double size glow in the dark cover st print spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians of the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger st appearance h a r d corps h a r d corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk st app grey hulk since st mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins keown art grey vs green hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos justice league america justice league quarterly justice society of america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable st app deadpool gideon domino st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men st appearance lobo st full lobo story annual power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher p o v starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed solar man of the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears dr octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears st ed hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics strange adventures dozens but in varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales of the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app ghost rider appears ghost rider appears warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora vs thanos web of spider man thunder appears magma appears origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin as super hero green goblin as super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf by night nd appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man annual x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x o manowar all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space i am willing to trade for other comics computer equipment video equipment audio equipment etc let me know what you want to trade geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comics jeff s strange comics dozens of new titles tuesday april update this is my latest updated list of strange bizzare odd independent comics that i have for sale as always most are cover price but some i will actually look up in the guide to see how much it is worth this week s special youngspud spoof comics oldblood bragade spoof comics spoofs of your favorite image comics both of these comics for which includes shipping a featuring tank girl adventurers aricel and adventure series the adventures of luther arkwright after apocalypse alias blastpoint alien nation angryman animal man trade paperback issues anything but monday apache dick ape nation arion the immortal atlantis chronicles avengers annual avengers west coast back to the future cartoon adaption badaxe bade biker orson batman shadow of the bat in polybag batman vs predator batman year one bats cats cadillacs beer nutz bizarre d zone blackhawk book black scorpion blackthorne publishing flip book blood sword dynasty bob s favorite comics boof caliber boris the bear boris the bear slaughters the teenage radioactive black belt big numbers blackhawk breathtaker butt biscuit cadillacs dinosaurs cage cap n quick a foozle cosmic odyssey crossroads cyberpunk dark horse presents desert storm send hussein to hell dragon chiang dungeoneers elflord vol no elftrek enchanter eclipse eye of mogambo felix the cat fire team fish police flash gordon fly french ice full throttle gajit gang gambit gatekeeper get lost ghost rider captain america fear give me liberty godzilla the greatest flash stories ever told green arrow ann greenhaven green hornet green lantern grey grimjack grimjack casefiles guardians of the galaxy hammer of god hamster vice harley rider haunt of fear hercules unbound hollywood superstars i saw it i am legend icarus icon idol illuminatus in country nam interface epic intruder tsr comics module invaders from home invaders from mars eternity jademan kung fu special jaguar jason monarch jeremiah birds of prey john byrne s next men judge dredd justice machine justy kicker s inc kid cannibal eternity kobra labor force blackthorne last american epic last generation last of the viking heroes legend of the shield legend killer legend of kamui lensman lethargic comics weakly light and darkness war living stone mountain loner lords of the ultra realms lucifer m a c h fleetway secret weapon master maxwell mouse follies maze merlin meta first metal bikini eternity metropol miami mice marke bode midnite the rebel skunk mister e mr monster s true crime ms tree renagade ms tree in d ms tree quarterly dc mummy mummy s curse aricel myth conceptions nathaniel dusk nathan impaler monster hunter night realm nemesis the warlock quality new beginning new frontier newstralia new triumph featuring northguard new york year zero night life caliber night zero fleetway ninja elite adventure nosferatu official buz sawyer official prince valiant olympians one open season open space oracle original black cat ox cow o war pandora pill panorama pathways to fantasy patrick rabbit penguin in paris personality comics presents musics comics on tour the beatles personality comics presents rolling stones pineapple army planet of the apes portia prinz of the glamazons psycho killers comic zone richard ramirez punisher and captain america blood and glory question dc red heat retief rhudiprrt the prince of fur rivit blackthorne robocop vs the terminator rock and roll comics david bowie rockin rollin miner ants fate roger rabbit s toontown runners rip off press sable first same slade robohunter samurai son of death scarlet kiss scavengers quality scorched earth scout war shaman screen monsters sensational she hulk marvel graphic novel shatterpoint eternity shuriken shuriken cold steel silverfawn sinbad adventure book the four trials sisterhood of steel skreemer dc slaine slash maraud song of the cid caliber sonic disrupters space ark spellbinders quality spider spider man special vs venom unicef giveaway spider man and power pack giveaway spoof spawn spoof st george stalkers epic stark future aricel starriors steed mrs peel straw men all american street wolf super shark humanoids survivors swords of shar pei syphons tales from the aniverse tales of ordinary madness tales of the green hornet tales of the jackalope thundersaur tomb of dracula torrid affairs toxic avenger transmutation of ike garuda trekker trouble with tigers antarctic twilight man first ad showcase ufo alien contact comic zone ultra klutz unicorn isle valkyrie anne rice interview with a vampire anne rice vampire companion anne rice vampire lestat venus wars video jack violent cases wacky squirrel summer fun special wanderers war warheads warlock aricel wasteland web weird wizards of the last resort world without end x terminators zell sworddancer zorro most comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help i will trade for other comics as well as computer equipment video equipment etc let me know what you want to trade geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
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rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article c u fy hvx news cso uiuc edu tspila uxa cso uiuc edu tim spila romulan writes in article apr ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology ok i ll bite how is this supposed to work tim better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today at
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon rovax tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today as i recall from reading posts here a while back rovax rovacs died because it was larger and noisier than the competing cheap r systems of it day probably a case of bad timing i think the system would have a better chance today now that r systems are on death row but investors may be hard to come by a second time jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os beta
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon it is actually simple in principle porous adsorbents like zeolite and activated carbon can adsorb gases evaporated from the adsorbate water or methanol etc giving the cooling effect upon being heated the gas saturated adsorbent bed will give off the gases which are then to be condensed this forms the adsorption refrigeration cycle the only problem is that the cop is very low max max g q lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help i don t know about where you are but here in california false representation of odometer readings is a criminal felony if you can substantiate this you need to report that dealer to the local authorities you should consult with a lawyer to tell you what civil action you can take as well keep in mind that you will have to prove that the dealer was aware of the change in the dashboard brian donnell
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states i know they have done it here in ct i have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled a high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff
rec.autos	re new talon i would also be interested in finding out about the talon and i suspect that many other people would be interested too so let s get some responses on the net the question again does anyone have any info on the eagle talon mitsubishi eclipse plymouth laser i know that the old talon was based on the mitsubishi galant and that in japan a hp twin turbo v galant has been released so anyway any info on the talon would be appreciated steve hui
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com wrote but waiiiiiit isn t nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork i read this on the net a while ago and someone actually may have said there s a little stanza logo on the altima somewhere i just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is a little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was a stanza was that the owners manual called the car a nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way mark goldsworthy
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article c uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr lexus es gs sc infiniti j dozens of others including common cars like the toyota camry as an option v don t know of any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus ls sc acura legend infiniti q lincoln mark viii some cadillacs and other luxury autos v dodge viper v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies i don t believe in luck university of california irvine i rely on it
rec.autos	domestic content of us japan joint ventures does anyone know what the domestic content is of any of these geo prizm eagle talon ford probe all are made in the us but i have been told they contain mostly foreign parts please follow up directly to me i ll post the findings to the net if there is interest thanks tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr s but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr if it s a first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with a supercharger if it s the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike s sorry bout that mine is a model non turbo with abs and revised suspension whatever revised means i m in australia so we always seem to get the versions without extras which the europeans and americans get as standard my query is why does the noise get noticeably louder about months after an oil change i just find it a bit wierd that this happens is it the oil i m using mobil or is it the engine the s ge version model ie gets noiser the older the oil is i m only guessing its not annoyingly distressing or anything but just slightly puzzling puzzled
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in a previous article twetzel ucs indiana edu tom wetzel says in article r tth b i usenet ins cwru edu andrew a spencer aas po cwru edu writes well actually he didn t but we ll pretend the real author of this query has his name tacked in here my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car i was about to recommend you consider a targa top over a convertible but drew made the point very well when my wife and i were in our s we did the convertible thing with triumphs now in our mid s we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there is much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible tom while it s being mentioned i personally prefer the moonroof sunroof t top targa thing as well i simply don t like cloth tops nor the extra insurance nor the s color matching alot of companies do if i chose a convertible it d be a mazda rx ii i just like the way they look it d have to be in black with color matched black top they look good b vw cabriolet they do a suberb job of matching colors too also last year for them collector s item c mustang gt droptop they look ok too i know this doesn t help but i thought i d do it anyway good luck to your wife and you drew
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in a previous article dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer says in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee i gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and i gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it i agree wholeheartedly can t be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money not sure about there in ca but here in us the manuals are quite often the standard equipment of course finding a car with one might be hard but if you read the sticker on the window there is usally an additional k or so tacked on for that lousy tranny so you actually are paying more just that it s sometimes hard to find one that is equipped standard this applies to most cars but not to the luxoyachts eg caddilac licolns etc drew
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v don t know of any kidding right corvette several mbz s and bmw s mustang gt etc etc there s a lot of them you from a european site kenny kenny crudup att bl mv t b x kenny mvuts att com
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu uhog mit edu wupost howland reston ans net ux cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka from cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date tue apr gmt message id c t b dg news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu apr cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area the gt was based on the kadette chassis it was built model years the manta came out in the model year and was a seat coupe matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	re opel owners in article apr convex com maynard convex com mark maynard writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu ames agate howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu news utdallas edu convex convex maynard from maynard convex com mark maynard subject re opel owners message id apr convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references gibbonsa sfu ca c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue apr gmt x disclaimer this message was written by a user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if i remember correctly i believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including a brand new not remfg long block either a gt or a kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark in they lowered the engine compression so that it would run on regular gas not to mention the addition of emission controls the also added pop out rear quarter windows alot of parts are available for the gt from c r small cars in ct and used from bill daley s opel parts in ma matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer says in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any are you serious try the deep breath mustang camaro optional on nearly every truck ever built corvettes caprices bmw i caddie eldorado fleetwood seville infiniti q jeep grand cherokee lexus ls lexus sc lincon mark viii town car m b sel and the mercury grand marquis to name a few v jaguar xjs how about v viper v must be one somewhere believe bugatti s coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as i heard at any rate the point is i m pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited drew
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted in a previous article jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas says the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn a few years back a was in a sx auto you guys call it a sx without turbo and was going round a corner i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz you are sure that what you call a sx we call a just curious we also have a nissan predacessor sp to the called a which came in turbo and nonturbo but i don t think we ve ever had a turbo just curious btw i m in the us if that matters drew
rec.autos	re opel owners mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was a two door sedan in the us it had a engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps funny the manta s over in europe look surprisingly like the opel alluded to by the original poster chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re opel owners matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes by the way what do people think about the opel calibra i want one and i don t want to move to europe to buy one please make it the next pontiac f car of course i ll have to wait till to buy it chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	alternative fuel vehicles here is a press release from the u s department of energy energy secretary hails president s plan for alternative fuel vehicles to national desk environment and energy reporters contact larry hart of the u s department of energy washington april secretary of energy hazel r o leary today said president clinton s executive order on alternative fuels will make the federal government a driving force behind efforts to increase the availability of both alternative fuel vehicles and fuel supplies president clinton signed the order today which calls for federal purchases of alternative fuel vehicles in numbers over the next three years at least percent higher than those called for in the energy policy act of president clinton also announced that texas land commissioner gary mauro will head up the federal fleet conversion task force to advise o leary on implementation of the executive order i am delighted that i will be working with gary mauro to make this happen o leary said as land commissioner gary mauro has helped make texas a national leader in converting the state fleet to alternative fuels and has been a tireless proponent of natural gas vehicles in speeches across the country the task force is to issue a report within days recommending a plan and schedule of implementation the department of energy and all of us in government must lead by example if the option of alternative fuels is going to become a practical affordable choice for fleet owners across the country o leary said increased use of domestically produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution while creating jobs we believe that energy efficiency protecting the environment and a healthy economy are complimentary goals o leary said that plans call for the department of energy to coordinate the agencies five year purchase plans help with funding for extra purchase or conversion costs and work with gsa to encourage development of the fuel infrastructure needed to make fleet conversions practical under the order the department of energy will also be working with states local governments and industry to coordinate vehicle purchases and encourage manufacturers and fuel suppliers to make alternative fuel vehicles and alternative fuels more widely available canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	hyundai sonata opinions info wanted i d like to hear stories on experiences with the hyundai sonata i know consumer reports has trashed them but the people i know that have them swear by them they also haven t had the problems with them that consumer reports claims i haven t driven one yet i have driven a hyundai elantra which consumer reports also trashed and was very impressed with it the local hyundai dealership no haggle policy is offering an elantra gls w power moonroof for they also have a sonata base w sunroof for i know my preference is for a sonata gls w sunroof and spd automatic i ll decide which engine i prefer after test driving both the cyl and the v the sonata is also offering a rebate hmmm that s another question is the following scenario the appropriate manner to handle negotiation make offer subtract rebate from offer talk trade subtract trade from offer to get final price rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc p o box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke va fax phone or x
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes you are sure that what you call a sx we call a just curious we also have a nissan predacessor sp to the called a which came in turbo and nonturbo but i don t think we ve ever had a turbo just curious btw i m in the us if that matters drew what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as a sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article r oe c usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such foot in mouth again drew the first generation mr s were s which were very smooth i d be real surprised if the original poster was talking about a st generation car the second generation cars were for the non turbo and for the turbo i drove the non turbo and calling it unpleasant is to be kind to it i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i wrong and wrong mitsubishi owns the patent which has since expired which is why everybody with a shred of integrity is putting balance shafts into their big s the notable exception is nissan and only for the us market suckers i guess we need to write to c d and start telling them to publish graphs for engine vibration over rpm then you ll see usenet discussions of the form engine a has peak vibrations db less than engine b therefore engine a is better than engine b eliot
rec.autos	re is car saftey important i of course car safety is important i for one used to think that these guys are going way ott with their airtbags sorry del button dont work and side impact bars and crash zones and the list goes on just tpo make the car heavbier and all its penalties bur recently i had a little accident on my bike and not as bad as john s but after the accident it made me realizer i should have worn a helmet my mom always insistede i should i was more concerned about my hair style a few days agi i read a report in which the old rea rea shit renault had an accident and its roof caved inwards and crushed the occupents heads
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article c unfy e i dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes in article c ui u ao murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident don t worry about this they ll drop you like a hot potato after you do make a claim they ll just make filing the claim a pain but it will end when they leave you in the lurch i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where more than that geico funded the company that developed lidar when locals showed a reluctance to buy the units geico started giving them away i know they ve given units to the florida highway patrol county sheriff s a and some local governments the real question is why this is the hook geico and other ins co s can tell which drivers represent risk this is a determination they can make after you receive a speeding ticket from one of geico s lidar units most drivers do not represent increased risk even after a ticket or two but this gives them the opportunity to raise rates for equal risk it s called extra profits they also know how silly the nsl is and how it is almost universally ignored driving in excess of the nsl gets you a ticket an increase in your rates points on your license but it doesn t make you a riskier driver to insure like the sound of this like the people who thought up the scheme go geico unless you have some driving history problems you re usually better to go with one of the major companies and stay there you ll get long term customer discounts on your premiums now about the of your premium that is paid as commission that s another story for another day
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico bob excellent to the point and correct spread the word
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here i hope this helps bsb
rec.autos	borgward question my ex husband i used to own borgwards haven t seen any for a long time they were really good cars does ayone out there know anything about them now i heard they were being made in mexico but of course they wouldn t be the original german if that s even true when i ve been in mexico i haven t seen any we loved ours even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff gee is it already yes it will still be on the fox program chasis anything that will be different on the new car as far as mechanical s is unknown the suspension will most likely be changed as well as the drive drain from what has been printed on it there is no clear idea of what will be done as some say it will have the modular v and others the current small block just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what i seen is good a return to tradition c scoop on the sides and roof line much like a or fastback bp
rec.autos	re likelihood of radio being stolen the question is not whether your radio will be stolen the question is when your radio will be stolen tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	a c service rip off i went to a place called american car care centers to check my car for a c leak after checking i was told that there is a leak in the compressor seal at the end in addition to the labor for the check i was charged dollars for a pound of freon although they evacuated my a c afterwards because of the leak first is it fair for him to charge me for a pound of freon plus tax second what can i do about this if this is unfair albert wu
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr csa lbl gov jtchew csa lbl gov ad absurdum per aspera writes wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ever once in a while you still see a reference to the super slab system as interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much of anything that goes on the road is another matter a few of their most whomped up diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff i ve driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant in a crew cab pickup actually i ve heard that some m abrams tank commanders take the governers off their turbine engines and can acheive mph on a paved road never seen it myself but i believe it weren t exactly congenial at highway speeds and i wouldn t swear any of them would do except as a bedload on a semi stuff deleted joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages well this isn t the right group for this but i have to say that i don t think violence is any more socially acceptable now by any means how can you say that when we used to have of pistol toting gunslingers as heros or even gangland thugs being considered romantic do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians i don t think so that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then in fact i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california we here about it in ma the same day back in the old days they d never hear about something like that period sorry about posting to rec autos but this is where it came up mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines a degree v ya gotta love it eliot
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in rec autos mas skcla monsanto com writes xif you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your xtires rebalanced x xjohn mas x xe mail address mas skcla monsanto com since the wheel tire is balanced off the car i e the lugnuts are not normally involved how would they do that i would think that since the lugs are so close to the center of rotation any slight difference in weight between a normal lugnut and a locking one would not have any noticable effect on the balance i could be wrong it is friday afternoon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article nataraja geode nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any ditto seems to me that i heard that some early saabs were cycle v s then again who could possibly care v legend mr mr what s an mr or mr most any gm w the v v don t know of any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus ls sc infinity q v jaguar xjs some mercedes bmw il lamborghini countach lamborghini diablo please add to the list vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	information needed hi this is my first time to post on this news group now a days i have stucked at a certain problem i have mazda mx non turbo fuel injection there is a engine warning signal on the dash board while driving this signal turns on but not always what does this mean in the manual they say go to authorized mazda dealer it is really good idea don t you think so i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes is anybody out there who can give me same advice as authorized mazda dealer can give youjip won yjwon cs umn edu
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity who cares about typos of these meaningless synthetic names if the cars were named after a person e g honda i d be more respectful lexus gs v es v sc v wrong the gs and sc use straight sixes while the es uses a v only a giant like toyota can afford to have both a v and inline in its lineup but that won t last for long eliot
rec.autos	re help with buick regal in article c wykp l ulowell ulowell edu gvahe cs ulowell edu gerry vahe writes hhheeelllppp i m going crazy i have a buick regal with over miles on it just recently when i go over a bump of any size the rear drivers s side of th e car feels like there is something hitting the floor board the noise is ampli fied when i am going around a corner when there is less weight above the tire wh en i hit a bump i had the whole brake drum off today checked under the car to see if th e muffler was hitting or something and i cant seem to find anything at all eve rything seems to be tight any ideas could it bee a shock absorber is there any way i can tell anything will help and be greatly appreciated gerry check out the shocks where they mount at both ends if you have the type that have a loop from lack of a better term and a bolt like piece sticking through there should be a rubber bushing between the loop and the bolt is it there is it crushed and allowing metal to metal contact i hope you can make some sense of this good luck
rec.autos	re the mustang in article gjg m bgsu edu gjg andy bgsu edu greg gantzer writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner wrote i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently yeah it looks like shit nothing like the mach iii check out the latest issue of popular mechanics they have a picture of one it looks like a cross between a dodge daytona and an eagle talon only much uglier this car looks like it should have been produced in not i ll pick up that pm and have a look maybe the picture in there is not the actual car but a prototype i saw the mach iii and was not all that impressed it looked way too japanese for me the tear drop headlights reminded me of a nissan nx glad i didn t hold out for the and bought a maybe they ll work on the design a little bit listen to consumers and come out with nice looking or it always takes a while to work out the kinks in a new design e g the f body camaro firebirds btw the new camaros look like shit too keath milligan software engineer videotelecom corporation austin texas jkm vtel com reaper wixer bga com try real time communications or telnet wixer bga com
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article c weqe ig news rich bnr ca herling crchh nosubdomain nodomain brent herling writes in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here ah yes the neutral slam i know that gm tested the old th s and th s by shifting from reverse to forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine at high rpms the units hold up incredibly well this is also the recommended technique to rock a stuck vehicle out of the mud i think the hydraulics are up to the task but the mechanicals of the driveline may object by breaking something ericy i agree about the durability of the old th trannies from gm while i never intentionally slamed my firebird ci conv into gear i would leave the trannie in low read st grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when i reached about mph the turbo auto would shift to s read super or nd and leave about to foot of double stripped rubber on the ground most everyone i knew at the time was quite impressed with peeling out at mph the trannie held up just fine motor mounts would last about a year until i tied the motor down with large chains oh yea fyi pontiac ci bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don t remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top ac cruise etc oh yea i also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn us regulations oh how i miss that car under sec and about to mpg well i don t miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs at the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months i really wonder what kind of rev s i was turning no tach re improvements in automatic transmissions anyone seen one of these lately i d buy it back in a sec open top brent am i the only one that smells a little el caca del toro here
rec.autos	vascar i know this is the wrong place to post this but i couldn t find any relevant newsgroups in my area for those of you who are from pa where is vascar where the cops measure your speed from the time it takes you to cross the distance between two white lines on the road right most commonly used i m especially interested in the pittsburgh area specific locations prior experiences if possible for those pa and non pa if they use vascar in your state is it most common in rural city highway areas etc what i m interested in mainly is where i can speed with the least risk of being caught you can always detect radar but there s no way to fight vascar unless you know where all the white lines are thanks a lot arun jayakumar
rec.autos	honda crx dx honda crx dx white w blue int original owner miles mostly highway recent tune up new battery oil changed every miles kenwood high power cassette receiver w spkrs or best reasonable offer if interested please e mail me at goose ftp com or call after pm ask for kevin
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine i ve had a valentine for about months now and i agree that it is the best det ector available the point here is trust and reliability i ve been able to tr ust the valentine more than any other detector i ve owend if the valentine sa ys that there is a moderate to strong radar source in front of me then it s mo re than likely to be a speed trap with my other detectors i ve gotten so many falses that i ve begun to ignore someo of the warnings because i didn t want t o drive like i had one foot on the brake and one on the gas pedal that directional indicator really really helps plus more info is almost alwa ys better than less info no matter how smart radar detectors get the human br ain is usually smarter so if i m going to make a decisio based on information at hand i want all the info i can get plus if you divide the overall streng th of the radar signal by the number of bogeys reported you ll find that each bogey is pretty weak and therefore not a radar threat with other detectors yo u ll just get one strong warning my logic may be faulty on this but i think i t works okay although i must admit that i haven t really noticed the reflection problem of one radar souce thomas
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty i agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved to be a very reliable car so far a little money spent now is worth the peace of mind in my opinion getting the powertrain warranty is enough in my case that s be cause anything that needed repairing in the interior sunroof windows doors etc i could do myself i just didn t want to mess with the engine and such plus i think the extra years of hour roadside assistance must be worthe so meting i opted for the year plan for thomas
rec.autos	toyota camry toyota camry le dr sedan ac at power windows and locks k miles asking pls call or send e mail to this account
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle wrote marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot except the drivers tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v the gs and sc have an inline infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here inline is correct i hope this helps bsb keith
rec.autos	val vs bel sti was re best radar detector in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i hadn t heard of the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors i was considering their latest the sti which picks up super wideband ka and laser as well it also avoids radar detector detectors although i really don t care about this since i doubt i ll be driving in virginia anytime soon or have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell
rec.autos	re v engines in pwe slipknot mit edu pwe slipknot mit edu paul w emery writes on the subject of the v ford in the uk used v engines exstensively in their ford transit vans this brings back a memory from the seventies i played in a band at the time and for something like pounds four of us bought a tranny to cart the gear around in it was in terrible shape cosmetically because it s last owner was a pig farmer we spent days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back to the engine if i remember right it was a cc v and that thing could haul we could fill it with equipment and up to people and it went like a bat out of hell of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a morris minor that worked great ah fond memories saab sonnet iii too i believe pwe slipknot mit edu i d like to own a squadron of tanks paul w emery ron nasty the rutles m i t magnet lab cambridge mass u s a costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	thanks nova advice i want to thank all the people that responded to my post a few weeks ago about buying an chev nova with over mi i decided to buy the car and have had it for about a month i replaced the front brake pads and changed the oil so far no problems have surfaced i received many suggestions and encouragement on this purchase and figured a late thank you was better than none thanks to all jim
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in apr cs tulane edu finnegan nrlssc navy mil writes in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore horizontally opposed or boxer great idea actually smooth running low center of gravity also used in some honda gullwings corvairs porsches others kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in article c unfj pa usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes in article r tth b i usenet ins cwru edu andrew a spencer aas po cwru edu writes my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car i was about to recommend you consider a targa top over a convertible but drew made the point very well when my wife and i were in our s we did the convertible thing with triumphs now in our mid s we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there is much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible my last car had t tops big t tops my current car is a convertible imho if you re after that convertible feel t tops open top sunroofs moonroofs whatever just don t cut it there s no substitute for a convertible if you re not after that sun beating down on you the wind in your hair and teeth the flopsum and jetsum getting in the car and the noises associated with the whooshing of the wind you re not after that convertible feel so go with something with at least a hole above the driver but don t call it a convertible and i do wonder how those targa tops would compare against my roll bar in a rollover situation of course i d rather not test it in my car i too am in my early s a convertible accept no substitute tonya i d rather be sailing flynn w sunrise blvd ft lauderdale fl let s just punch through that uucp uunet gould tflynn sand bar crew of natty dread internet tflynn encore com
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible and here s my two cents the best convertible for the money imo is the miata yes it s small but you re buying it as a second car i hope so you don t need the cargo room of a big car it s got enough power for fun it s rwd like a sports car ought to be i m gonna regret that and the top while manual operates like a dream seconds and one hand to lower and not much longer to raise the targa type cars are nice but they re not real convertibles ken warren the secrets of a good life are early nights good food excercise and clean living e mail kenw netaxs com but the secrets of a happy life are late nights wild parties kinky sex and junk food
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy i came across this interesting information in my local public library while researching minivans it is the dealer price and the retail price for a minivan i am thinking about purchasing someone told me that the number for base price was slightly lower than the current price but this should still give you some idea about pricing and how much you can negotiate mercury villager gs dealer retail base price air conditioning rear defroster calif emissions passenger seating am fm radio no cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes std std destination the total dealer cost is the total retail price is nissan quest xe dealer retail base price air conditioning std std rear defroster std std calif emissions passenger seating std std am fm cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes destination the total dealer cost is the total retail price is
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions shazad barlas jkjec westminster ac uk wrote to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here i ve known more people to leave their rear ends in pieces doing this especially if they have reasonable power to transmit and good traction on the road surface you re better off powerbraking wes fujii a real motor is an oldsmobile rocket hurst this is not the new generation of olds wes banzai fujii olds boise idaho wesf hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes if you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your tires rebalanced john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com well it depends on what kind of locking lugnuts you have my previous car had locking lugnuts that weighed about oz more than the others the locking lugnuts were factory equipment and according to the factory service manual after tire balancing the technician mechanic was supposed to put a oz counterweight on the rim opposite the locking nut i always had vibration problems with those stupid lugnuts since no one ever did the service correctly i eventually got rid of the locking lugnuts and replaced them with the standard lugnuts unfortunately i found out about the counterweighting technique months after i got rid of the locking nuts my present car a saturn sc has locking lugnuts that i bought at the dealer and are made specifically for the saturn they have been made to be exactly the same weight as the non locking lugnuts said so on the package and i verified it myself i haven t had any vibration problems with the tires at all due to the nuts in of ownership i did have some other vibration problems but it was due to a poor job of tire balancing tom
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff what i heard there was a new engine slated for the mustang something like hp ok it was from one of their other lines eric alter
rec.autos	some taurus misc maint are there any fairly cheap or so ways to increase the performance on this car unfortunately a taurus is not exactly a muscle car so i m looking for ways to increase the performance there is a company in florida that sells computer chips that supposedly get a few hp and torque out of the don t have the address but saw the ad in hot rod and some other car magazines also you could open up the exhaust get an exhaust with a larger i d hope this helps if you find anything else let me know i ve got a taurus l george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article apr ra oc com lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan r lusky writes shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place please explain the why of this i have over k miles usage of clutchless shift and no problems krispy
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv i ll agree about villager but not mpv it s so small that i d class it as a suv with an extra seat shoehorned in to get any rear cargo space you shove the back seat up against the middle seat eliminating all leg room back to the villager only the price is controversial and the use of attack belts instead of point belts that killed it for me andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
rec.autos	shifting without clutch while is it ok to take the car out of gear without using the clutch while the car is turned off thanks in advance please reply by mail eric
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper diesels fall into the same emissions mythology as alcohol fuels the main reason they are considered cleaner is because they are better at the emissions we actually measure and regulate but they also contribute additional emissions which have long been determined to be as harmful but no suitable control or limits have been defined current evidence is pointing to most visible smog actually being diesel emissions and suspended particles and less of a photo chemical reaction diesel particulates are now becoming a major concern in decreased lung capacity and alcohols emit signifcantly more aldehydes a known carcinigen than gasoline the evidence is mounting that while we have been beating the gasoline engine to death we may have been ignoring the effects of the alternatives and anyone who thinks diesels are so great should go and spend a few hours in rush hour traffic in some cities in europe there the stench of the diesels is awful and it can even burn the eyes diesels being clean is only relative to our current standards mark
rec.autos	choice of gauges if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set i consider the basic set to be tach coolant temp or cylinder head temp for air cooled engines oil pressure amps speedo fuel others that are nice to have volts maybe this should be in the basic set vacuum boost i can think of a few others but what are your ideas and why dave
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew i ve always heard them referred to horizontally opposed joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting i m not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup but in the trans am cars i ve played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead of sychros in a transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place just out of curiosity how is this dog clutch any different from a synchro transmission what you described sounds the same to me in fact what little i ve studied on trannies the instructor referred to the synchros as dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed in a synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting or at least that is what i was taught explain por favour motorcycle transmissions don t have synchros the engagment dogs are very corse and sloppy there are maybe teeth dogs on the side of the gears that engage the next gear over as the forks slide the gears back and forth to shift start to apply pressure at the same time the clutch is pulled the clutch is a hand lever and shift quickly if you try a slow lazy shift it will grind you just have to pop it into the next gear before it has a chance to grind there isn t a neutral between gears obviously there is but you can t select it with the shifter so double clutching is not a possibility speed shifting which is what i have always heard clutchless shifting called works pretty well for upshifts with some practice but i usually use the clutch especially for the lower gears i think auto as in automobile trannys are similar except that the engagment dogs are very fine with no slop and the addition of syncho rings the gear teeth are always engaged in auto transmissions that are synchronized but may not be in non synchro gears reverse and sometimes first frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article r uckinncmf gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su writes path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu wen king from wen king cs caltech edu wen king su newsgroups rec autos date apr gmt organization california institute of technology lines references r ejinnk j gap caltech edu r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu keywords mercury villager minivan van cars jittlov in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight same engine different state of tune less hp and maybe more torque my friend at work regularly takes people in his and it seems to haul around just fine jeff goss
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance i got numerous complaints about geico and several helpful pointers to other good insurance companies i have decided to go with the erie insurance exchange which seems to combine high ratings from the net and consumer reports with low rates at least for me thanks for all the responses
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy i have tested both vehicles identically equipped both for week long periods curiously and consider these are test vehicles i found the mercury higher in build quality than the nissan either choice is good but beware that i did not experience reasonable mileage with the v average city driving was mpg with about avg on the highway both were optioned to the hilt the nissan had leather the villager was in the k range and the nissan was over k bob
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr dsd es com bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say either i ve just fallen for this or you guys are really paranoid you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil c mon you think a vandal ll do that that s absolutely ridiculous besides how hard is it to get under the car to change the oil i can say from experience on the cars that i ve driven and changed the oil on my mazda is pretty much a pain but once you ve done it once you don t forget how and it gets easier i can t imagine any other cars are much worse than mine andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.autos	for sale toyota camry toyota camry for sale deluxe package speed grey power windows power door locks am fm cassette power steering power brakes k highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu after pm e mail me for more info day until ask for bob fusi
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article buck granite buck granite ma bull com ken buck writes unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms nahhh only about once a week march through may and sometimes in the fall
rec.autos	re slick any good mad a fermi clas virginia edu michael a davis writes chances are that this has been discussed to death already and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site basically i am just wondering if slick really does all it says that it does and also is there any data to support the claim thanks for any info mike davis i don t have any written data but i know what i have experienced i use s in everything including my lawnmowers in my car it smoothed the idle and reduced the operating temp by degrees i havent used it long enough to test for wear but some people i know have a farmer that lives near by used to have to overhaul his big deisel tractors at least every other year if not every year since he has been using s he has went years without an overhaul also a friend at a machine shop has in the past rebuilt engines with k miles on them because the coustomer thought it was time these coustomers had ran s since almost new it was found when measuring the internals of the engine that they showed only about the amount of wear that would be expected of k miles not k in my opinion it works beware the cat is on the prowel disclamer hey i m a student a cat hungry as hell i don t need one detomaso pantera efi twin turbo david j doddek with liscence to fly it flies uofi pantera uxa cso uiuc edu
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages well this isn t the right group for this but i have to say that i don t think violence is any more socially acceptable now by any means how can you say that when we used to have of pistol toting gunslingers as heros or even gangland thugs being considered romantic do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians i don t think so that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then in fact i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california we here about it in ma the same day back in the old days they d never hear about something like that period yeah people act really shocked about violence as though it were new to our species what about the holocaust the crusades the salem witch trials the religious persecutions of the middle ages what about violent acts carried out in the name of religion all over the world what about the early christians put to death by the romans the jews persecuted by christians there are a lot more humans today than there have ever been i do not know the stats but there are far more people on the planet than there were or hundred years ago the per capita acts of violence are probably not significantly different than they were a hundred or a thousand years ago there is nothing new about violence rf
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article c wphp kl megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes v s v s and v s man can you imagine doing a valve adjustment on one that has multiple non hydraulic valves in each cylinder aaron i was at the indianapolis motor speedway museum the other day and one of their very early winners was valves per cylinder and either front wheel drive or all wheel drive i think front wheel drive and that was in spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re val vs bel sti was re best radar detector in article brian hotspare arc nasa gov brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov brian donnell writes in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i hadn t heard of the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors i was considering their latest the sti which picks up super wideband ka and laser as well it also avoids radar detector detectors although i really don t care about this since i doubt i ll be driving in virginia anytime soon or have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell no comparison the bel is just a hooped up wideband escort like detector no directional indicators no bogey counter no radar signature analysis no remote display option not as sensitive not as well built had it sent it back at
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article r n innie shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu i we are gaia writes in article r bqginn ei roundup crhc uiuc edu vivek crhc uiuc edu vivek chickermane writes advice on saturn extended warranty i placed an order for a saturn sl and it is expected next week the saturn retailer gave me some pamphlets about the extended warranty plan and i have been thinking about it being a first time new car buyer i am seeking advice from veterans esp those who have bought saturns lately fyi i have listed some of the features of the saturn extended warranty plan the car comes with a years mile bumper to bumper warranty plan i extended powertrain coverage covers the cost of repairs to engine transaxle front wheel drive hour roadside assistance program coverage term years miles deductible i say extended warranties are a ripoff high profit item for dealers but what i really want to point out here is that you are not buying k k k you get yr k free so what you are buying is k k k keep that in mind when you look at the cost vs coverage another point is that many car companies routinely fix car problems that are out of warranty why design manufacturing defects that the company owns up to keeping customer happy etc
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice oh that s not so bad every time i try to change the oil i forget to shut off the engine first the hot oil comes out and scalds me blinds me then the engine starts to overheat and while i m screaming in agony and trying to crawl out from under the car i grab the red hot exhaust pipe and get third degree burns on my hands my screams intensify as i finally emerge from under the car and i struggle to my feet in front of the car whereupon the radiator hose ruptures and sprays me with super heated coolant then the engine seizes but not before the cylinder head explodes piercing my flesh with fragments of red hot iron this happens every time i m starting to think i should pay the mechanic instead paying the hospital and the dealer for a new car this gets costly when you change the oil every miles toadface
rec.autos	re info opinions wanted on cars in this article in article c st hf ns nodak edu bell plains nodak edu robert bell writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m in the market for a new car currently i own a mazda mx dx which has served me just fine however i d like to get a door car since i don t relish the thought of moving a carseat around in a door car my criteria are door a c am fm cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom my husband is a footer it must also be under k preferably closer to the k range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught my eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand am pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic if it s roomy enough and still comes in a door model hyundai sonata and maybe even a small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome the civic does still come in a door model my wife and i looked quite seriously at the prizm corolla and civic as well as some other cars our impressions all three seemed well built and had the features we wanted these are similar to the features you want except for cruise control and we want a manual transmission and are considering anti lock brakes i also hate automatic seatbelts and we both think having an airbag is a plus in general comfort and performance were both significant some specific s and s are listed below mazda very comfortable and roomy can theoretically get abs on dx model though in practice this is hard to find base price for base model includes numerous little things like tach variable speed wipers rear defroster split folding rear seat more expensive than many other cars listed below honda civic dx gets significantly better mileage than other cars listed here comfortable front seat adjustable seat belt mounting no abs without ex model includes s of other things like a sunroof geo prizm toyota corolla seats not very comfortable to us your mileage may vary adjustable seat belt mounting can get abs without lots of other extras saturn sl was quite comfortable though sl less so motorized attack belts dodge spirit no real outstanding s but seemed generally ok rear seat does not fold down chevy corsica comes with abs standard lower would you buy that car again and safety ratings in consumer reports than first cars above suspension didn t feel as stiff as the others this would be a for some the honda accord and toyota camry were both more expensive than the and in our minds not significantly better we probably gave disproportionately low consideration to the big due a to my wife s family s general dislike of chrysler products b some unimpressive gm products owned by my parents and a housemate of mine c the taurus comes with automatic transmission i find the seat of the tempo very uncomfortable and the escort has attack belts and no air bag we ll probably end up with a i saw a dx with a c and cassette advertised for just under washington post april i think and my local dealer says they can match that price i will probably get the maybe tomorrow the main question in my mind is whether or not i will have to do a factory order or preference order to get one with abs and whether or not the dealership will run the price up a lot if i do so
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes i agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved to be a very reliable car so far a little money spent now is worth the peace of mind this is an interesting point some people are not really buying the coverage they are buying peace of mind marketing folks love selling that i suggest that people choose to not engage their minds in peaceless worry rather than buying that peace of mind in my opinion getting the powertrain warranty is enough in my case that s be cause anything that needed repairing in the interior sunroof windows doors etc i could do myself i just didn t want to mess with the engine and such you d be surprised how much the little knick knack stuff can cost what if your a c goes out steering rack don t get me wrong i m against all extended warranties they are a ripoff plus i think the extra years of hour roadside assistance must be worthe so meting i opted for the year plan for extra yrs you realize the first yr k is free warranty that comes with the car thomas
rec.autos	re v v v v vx eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot are degree v flat six engines chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re v v v v vx aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew then what is a flat engine chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	production hold on firebird camaro w speed after a tip from gary crum crum fcom cc utah edu i got on the phone with pontiac systems or pontaic customer service or whatever and inquired about a rumoured production hold on the formula firebird and trans am btw talking with the dealer i bought the car from got me nowhere after being routed to a firebird specialist i was able to confirm that this is in fact the case at first there was some problem with the performance axle ratio she wouldn t go into any details so i don t know if there were some shipped that had problems or if production was held up because they simply didn t have the proper parts from the supplier as i say she was pretty vague on that so if anyone else knows anything about this feel free to respond supposedly this problem is now solved second there is a definate shortage of parts that is somehow related to the six speed manual transmission so as of this posting there is a production hold on these cars she claimed part of the delay was not wanting to use inferior quality parts for the car and therefore having to wait for the right high quality parts i m not positive that this applies to the camaro as well but i m guessing it would can anyone else shed some light on this chris s chris silvester any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should by no means be allowed to do the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti kchong mothra nts uci edu keith chong writes in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v the gs and sc have an inline infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here inline is correct i hope this helps bsb keith this is off the subject but don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal issa
rec.autos	buy back we were at a dealership today looking at buying a car and the salesman was showing us something he was calling a buy back is that a car that was fleeted and then given back for the new model the next year if that is so how many miles is a good number to have on it and are these types of cars generally a good buy thanks ellen
rec.autos	re borgward question in article r m innnb shelley u washington edu monet carson u washington edu diana smith writes my ex husband i used to own borgwards even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward that s pretty good a friend had an audi that he named murphy mark
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante write s you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew we meet again no not stealing the oil just draining it as to leave me stranded c mon you think a vandal ll do that let me guess you re from hudson ohio that s absolutely ridiculous get out and see the world if i were the vandal and i really hated someone maybe someone who knew something about cars of course i would look for any types of valves i could undo especially special oil drain plugs and radiator petcocks as well as putting bad things in the gas while i would never vandalize someone s car if i were to it would probably be the time bomb approach and i m sure i m not the only one who thinks that way steve
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto in article c w or dex news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek i think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices no is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value the blue book value isn t set in stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff i paid under bb retail for my civic in and it was in perfect condition and had only k miles on it the guy was desparate to sell new kid on the way etc but it was a good price remeber both you and the buyer if he has any sort of brains at all are using the blue book so you should pick a fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area a mileage chart should be available in the book it usually goes by the class of car you own and year usually you will end up adding a few hundred dollars to the retail price or subtracting it consumer reports also has a number you can call and get a quote for your area a friend of mine used it and was quite happy with the service i believe it cost about joe
rec.autos	re help with mitsubishi galant gs transmission in article r j linnac phakt usc edu rmakarem usc edu total stranger writes hi i need your help with a problem i have with a mitsubishi galant gs transmission the car has a speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from nd to rd unless i do it slowly and carefully it makes a popping or hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached by an say this is normal for the car is it and about a year ago at kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had no effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch is fully depressed if the clutch is released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck i could not make the car move it acted as if it were in neutral except for dying when clutch is released i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth less than an inch while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened i took it to the dealer they checked the clutch it was o k they checked the transmission it was o k i had the exact problem a couple of months ago and again last week the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi the says they have never heard of the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car in all three occurances the car was parked head first in a garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck i know there is smething wrong with the transmission shifting from nd to rd and getting stuck at random but i can t get the dealer to fix it i need your help with the mechanical problems and with how to handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry to bore you with the long post thanks rabih try another dealer sometimes the sophistication of equipment etc is better at one dealer than another you may also find another dealer willing to help you with the problem joe
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes but why not turn the question around why are automatics so common in the us because some people like them and some people actually need them my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque rich v s in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress and that this has just lived on yeah right real muscle cars had a manual transmission and their clutches aren t that heavy shelby american used plenty of high powered high torque engines and carroll only put autos in his cars because people wanted them blasphemers heretics burn them burn them for defiling a shelby with an auto real cobras and they were the ultimate sports car at the time had big block fords which turned out prodigious amounts of power and torque and none of them had automatics and also an automatic with a v engine can be real fun to drive yeah if you call a gear shift in the middle of a curve fun i personally would love to have a galaxie liter coupe with a fire breathing and four onna floor to go along side my galaxie pillarless hardtop with a fire breathing with three onna tree i love the sound of dual exhaust in the morning there s no comparison between a real american muscle car and a car with a big engine and an automatic imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re warning please read in article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged carrying a pistol loaded or unloaded in the glove compartment is considered carrying a concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without a concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying a weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal i read a newspaper account last year where police stopped a car on a traffic infraction and observed a magnum revolver sitting on the seat the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box it would have been considered a crime carrying in the glove box is not covered i m not sure what i was thinking there it is legal in oklahoma on inter state travel as long as it is legal for you to own at your point of origination and destination the gun is carried in a locked compartment box glove box specifically excluded separate from the ammo it is legal under title chapter section i forget and my copy of the regs is at home of the us code this unfortunately has not prevented the theft by state troopers of a certain state which shall remain nameless to protect the hopelessly stupid under that state s law gee and i thought federal law overrode state law james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal note bmw doesnt always follow this convention for example i had a liter engine the had a liter
rec.autos	honda mailing list is there a honda mailing list and if so how do i subscribe to it
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes useless road design speed rate discussion deleted actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot except the drivers thank you travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	cellular antannas i need to get some info on cellular antennas who are the biggest companies in this market now how much do their antenna cost what are the specs on the antennas gain directivity who is the contact person thank you email at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes if you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your tires rebalanced john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com i bought a set of are s a few months back and decided to add locks so that i could keep my new rims i haven t had a balance problem yet so i assume that it might be just particular to your type of stock nuts my rims were balanced with new bfg t a s at a speed shop to the finest setting on their bal machine so that helps too zauberer aka travis t
rec.autos	trucking industry which are them main trucking companeies and their locations do you have the name of ac a contact person thanks email at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote in article c r a rb srgenprp sr hp com almanb sr hp com bob alman writes hose h o s e dork d o r k oh really here s what you posted earlier in another thread before you thrash others for making simple mistakes or flaunt your wonderful vi skill think about how you make them feel as well as how you look you spelled it right for years you have assaulted others with offensive language etc from the content of many of your posts you appear to have a lot of useful information to share with people but it gets overshadowed when you come across as an abusive smart ass wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote in article c lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu z auberer writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana east becoming hidden by trees after about ft and continued to the left strait north i wanted to turn north checked the south lane rolled straight s t r a i g h t
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set i consider the basic set to be tach must have coolant temp or cylinder head temp for air cooled engines must oil pressure must amps i ve seen amps and volts i would go for the volts speedo must you ask fuel i would like to know how much gas i have of course the gauge i have now dosen t tell me s t so i could see not having one in favor of a warning light at say mi others that are nice to have volts maybe this should be in the basic set vacuum boost oooooohhhhh how i would looove to have a vacuum gauge on my dash travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes bmw s suck in the snow i have aggressive snows plus a hundred pounds of sand in the back and i still try to avoid driving in the snow i happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without a worry i would say this is the single design flaw in the bmw for a reasonable sum you can get a bmw with traction control a torque sensing limited slip rear differential since no fwd car including the saab has this kind of front differential since it would exacerbate torque steer a bmw with traction control should have the theoretical advantage on snow of course weight distribution and skinny tires could affect this
rec.autos	bfgoodrich radial t a touring t a tires hi i am looking for tires i would like to hear your experience on the bf goodrich radial t a tires and or the touring t a especially for size p r for radial t a how do they do in snow and wet weather are they quiet tires for touring t a how many miles can they last i believe they are in every way equal better than radial t a am i right chan
rec.autos	re choice of gauges if i m going to drive on a public road then i need a speedometer and an odometer helps for navigation my chevy has a bare minimum engine temp and oil press warning lights and a fuel gauge my vw has tach water temp voltmeter and oil temp gauges if i had a turbo car i d want a vacuum manifold boost gauge an oil pressure gauge is a nice reassuring gauge to look at if my car was air cooled then i would substitute a cyl head temp gauge for the water temp gauge a few years ago i looked at the audi quattro si coupe that bobby unser used to win the pikes peak hill climb the gauge layout from left to right top to bottom was speedometer fuel tranny press temp differential water temp temp big orange tach oil press warning light oil temp boost oil press alex amiller almaden ibm com
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s in article lth oninn r exodus eng sun com tut cairo eng sun com bill bill tuthill writes for a reasonable sum you can get a bmw with traction control a torque sensing limited slip rear differential traction control as far as the optional feature that one buys with cars is not the same thing at all as a torque sensing differential a torque sensing differential is a type of lsd but not all lsd s are torque sensing viscous coupled differentials as opposed to viscous couplings are rotational sensing not torque sensing for that matter so are traction control systems that use abs sensors and pulse braking then there are the older posi tracs and whatever which i am not familiar with the workings eliot
rec.autos	re what car is this in article ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl writes in article r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean had the yucky prv v engine a joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine is a mighty boring markus markus what is that we are noting about the spelling that you aren t good at it that peugeot is out of n america what does this mean roland an intrigued peugeot admirer
rec.autos	re dirty diesels i wouldn t want anyone to make kindling out of my front living room wall and then drive their diesel powered m tank into it shooting super hot soot all over my curtains and that freshly made kindling in other words please don t flame me yup i ll have to answer for this one
rec.autos	manual xmission advice needed i have manual transmission speed it difficult to engage gear does xmission oil change improve this situation what do you think about the most favorable xmission oil change period youjip
rec.autos	re choice of gauges dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes b b i can think of a few others but what are your ideas and why dave well in my bmw i like the little light that turns on when you are running out of gas it s a big help if you got a turbo that gauge is a must if i could i d just like all the gauges possible on my car but we can t have everything can we
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes newsgroups rec autos path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net louie udel news intercon com psinntp telxon mis telxon com joes from joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt organization telxon corporation references apr engr washington edu apr cs tulane edu r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu date fri apr gmt lines in article r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew i ve always heard them referred to horizontally opposed joe kinda dull i ve always liked boxer subarus can use this as does porche and bmw twins that s a motorcycle for you with too many wheels jeff goss
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the snip snip does porsche have a patent on the targa name i mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what i would term a targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that i know the rear window rolls down but i still can hardly consider this car to be a convertible drew here we go no of course porsche doesn t have a patent on the targa name if that were the case what would fiat do i suppose that technically my del sol is not a convertible in the literal sense but it certainly classifies as an open topped car in addition the rear section behind the removable top is what makes my car infinately safer than a convertible flame retardant on diane dspalme mke ab com
rec.autos	re information needed yjwon deca cs umn edu youjip won writes hi this is my first time to post on this news group now a days i have stu there is a engine warning signal on the dash board while driving this si i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes is anybody out there who low oil pressure usually could be your oil pump or checked your oil lately mc mchase oneb almanac bc ca mark chase the old frog s almanac home of the almanac unix users group v public access usenet x vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw save youself the cash take it from a bmw mechanic idiot lights are for just that buy yourself a ballpoint pen and write it down yourself change your oil every mi and you will be just fine follow the regular service intervals in you r book also
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy from article r uckinncmf gap caltech edu by wen king cs caltech edu wen king su in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight yes it does come with the maxima gxe engine mated to the maxima se transmission and it has decent power for a minivan also check again aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help in article qvrnpinnnid shelley u washington edu yongje hardy u washington edu yong je lim writes here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks this is a tricky situation if the previous owner didn t inform the dealer of the odometer change then the previous owner committed fraud and he may be liable the dealer may also be liable if the previous owner notified the dealer or if the previous owner had the dash replaced at a dealer or if the previous owner had the dash changed legally any records search on the car should turn up the fact that the odometer had been altered if a dealer changes the speedometer he has to report it it goes into the car s service record with the manufacturer and on the title if i remember correctly the dealer told me that the old mileage etc were sent to ford when my t bird s speedo was replaced if the odometer can be set to the old mileage it must be if it can t eg electrically driven odometers then the mileage of the old odometer must be written on a permanent sticker which is affixed to the door frame of the vehicle either way if the change had been done legally then a records search which the dealer almost certainly did should have turned it up call your state s department of transportation public safety motor vehicles or your tag agent to find out for certain what your rights are your state s attorney general will know for certain james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in a previous article aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer says in a previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such let me clarify i think they both are litres i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i i was already corrected on this and believe i may have been in errror that it is actually mistubishi apologies for butting into the thread c ya drew
rec.autos	opinions on pontiac bonneville i am in the market to buy a used car i am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would i be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time i know they didn t redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models i would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes date wednesday apr edt from john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu subject re changing oil by self from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt in article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au paul o donnell wri in qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice john not everyone should be trusted with tools ron stafford texas instruments incorporated p o box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas
rec.autos	re is car saftey important s in a previous article jimf centerline com jim frost says jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article r jr m v armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me get into an mph accident and you may reconsider i ve been in one and it is really scarey my life is something i value more than a car s looks or handeling consider it insurance it may not happen often but when it does you ll sure be glad you got a safe car granted the tests aren t perfect but i d much rather be in a car that did well in the test than a car that did horribly you raise a valid point but again it s a tradeoff how much money do you want to spend for that kind of protection you could buy a volvo saab or benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you ll pay significantly more for it in my case it s out of the question because all of those cars are beyond my budget i ve been in two major auto accidents both were multiple car the worst was a head on three car collision t intersection and one person ran a stop sign in both cases i was stopped and had no place to go and i saw it coming both times even in high speed head on collisions the most beneficial item you can have is a good old point seatbelt nowadays at least in the us you get an airbag if you get a point belt so presumably you get an added safety benefit there as well that s something i certainly look for and which can be had in inexpensive cars if you really want to add safety to any car simply add a cage to the car they are available and cheap about in the usa add to that four or five or six point belts and you will walk away from collisions that were otherwise not survivable but instead of people spending a little extra money we get legislation that says the gov t must mandate a minimal level of protection for everyone one other significant factor in improving one s own safety is to get some training this will improve your safety more than any other single investment will drive ride defensively and that does not mean you have to be a doddering old stick in the mud people here tend to enthuse about autos more than the average probably in the top th percentile in driving ability but still we sometimes overlook the obvious i ve been to two driving schools and three riding schools for my motorcycle a very worthwhile investment and besides it was a lot of fun too safety is what you make of it just because a carmaker doesn t provide you with an adequate level of protection doesn t mean you have to leave it go at that al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels yeah but i hate to follow them with the exhaust at ground level not all diesels are well maintained either it seems they run for so long that people keep them going long after the top end is worn out
rec.autos	service indicator of a bmw does anyone know how to reset the service indicator of a bmw after changing the oil yourself also i have about miles on my i and so far only one of the five yellow service indicators went out that means i don t need oil service until it reach approximatly miles which doesn t make sense to me any idea ps of cause i did my first oil change at miles derek
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer in article andrei namao andrei namao uucp andrei chichak writes back when i was building round tail light s they were bimmers it was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering yep that s when i noticed it too i stopped replacing the hood badge after the second or third one at each drivers used to flash their headlight at each other in greeting try flashing your headlights at a i driver and see what kind of look you get they usually check their radar detector they think you re alerting them to a cop mark
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com richard newton ii rjn netcom com writes on a related note does this seem a sane price for a convertible corvette in good condition how does one determine these things my cr used car magazine doesn t list corvettes any net wisdom on what to look for what to avoid thanks in advance rich first of all you might want to join the vettenet vettes chiller compaq com during your search acquisition of the k sounds about right for a wrong engine condition car this means that the car may not have significant investment value but could be an excellent driver and or hobby car you will also want to get a copy of the corvette black book immediately don t leave home to look at vettes without it since you are contemplating spending k you might want to invest a few hours in reading the corvette buyer s guide and purchase noland adams tape how to buy a corvette the tape shows you how to check for damage etc there are many many factors that will affect the value road worthiness and repair expense of your proposed the list is much too long to go into here join the vettenet where there are over current corvette owners many with s vintage vettes that are available to help you the pubs i mentioned above are available from mid america designs and several other corvette parts sources good luck tom hp cruiser
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee i gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and i gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it can t be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money john kissane motorola ireland ltd o o uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland u doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n service control point routing services design r
rec.autos	any info on merc e cheek
rec.autos	re the mustang petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes jmm h virginia edu the bald runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car gee is it already yes it will still be on the fox program chasis anything that will be differe nt on the new car as far as mechanical s is unknown the suspension will most likely be changed as well as the drive drain from what has been printed on it there is no clear idea of what will be done as some say it will have the modular v and others the current small block just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what i seen is good a return to tradition c scoop on the sides and roof line much like a or fastback you know i m a ford fan i must say so i m looking forward to the next mustang i have faith that it will be a fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that s mho the differences these days between ford and gm are not so much the quality just the philosophy it used to be quality and philosophy gm is barely catching up but they have more room for improvement that can only be made up in time stss still come off the assembly line with screwed up paint stripes and poor trunk door hood panel alignments it s those year old plants and the latest gm products still come with the standard equipment rattledash tm but like i said they re getting better and making the move in the right direction they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there i wouldn t press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway i do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it s entirety inside information had the taurus with a v and rear wheel drive at one point i wouldn t look for a simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there s a lot of potential ford hasn t released a new car without a wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right a wheel is could happen those modular v s are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don t rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that i submit that the mustang will be a success enough to elicit defensive remarks from some heavy camaro fans here you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual i predict that the differences will be in subjective areas like looks and feel as usual the camaro is still a huge automobile the mustang will retain its cab rearward styling and short pony car wheelbase the camaro still reaches out to the fighter pilot while the mustang will appeal to the driver the camaro will still sell to the muscle car set while the mustang will continue to sell to the college degreed muscle car set both will be more refined i do think the camaro is there will be no clear winner unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re v v v v vx cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to then what is a flat engine flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re changing oil by self sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew we meet again no not stealing the oil just draining it as to leave me stranded c mon you think a vandal ll do that let me guess you re from hudson ohio hey what s this hudson crap actually the only place my car has ever been broken into was in hudson at my in laws in their driveway took my vuarnets and some change damn kids regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re honda mailing list excerpts from netnews rec autos apr honda mailing list by james b atkins prism ga is there a honda mailing list and if so how do i subscribe to it if you look at their magazine ads they may have a phone number to call and you can ask for a catalog or to be on the list etc
rec.autos	re looking for tips for driving cross country r goldstein rdg world std com sez as the subject says i am moving from mass to calif and will be driving mostly on interstate any advice from folks who have done it before plan your gas stops in major city areas to avoid the cent per gallon only gas station for miles and you re an out of towner surcharge prepare your car don t forget things like your fuel air filters if you re loading your car up consider putting your spare on top of your stuff just in case of a flat in my x country trip a tire disintegrated in the california desert it took me minutes to unload all my stuff to get to the tire if you have a hatchback cover all your stuff with a white bedsheet to help keep the stuff and your car cool as well as possibly avoiding theft mcdonalds have good clean bathrooms invest in a cb magnetic roof antenna it may help if you re stranded and you can always ask people for places to stop for food etc many times police like to hang out in the st miles after you enter a new state to catch all the speeders who have escaped the previous state same as above when you enter a mph city zone after hours and hours of mph rural interstate dave davetorok torok nynexst com fax juggle nynex science technology westchester ave white plains ny
rec.autos	weird problem with gm banger transmission i m having an interesting problem with my girlfriend s car before i delve into its innards i thought i d check net wisdom on the subject it s a buick skyhawk i know i know l efi banger auto k miles when i drive tha car long enough to get it hot especially at highways speeds the transmission has this nasty habit of getting stuck in rd gear as a result when you stop for a light the motor stalls putting the car in park and waiting for seconds before restarting sometimes allows the transmission to reset and go back into st otherwise it just stalls when put in drive my thoughts either it the rd gear band is binding and getting stuck when it gets hot not so likely or perhaps the lock up converter is not disengaging properly seems likely the least likely keeping fingers crossed is that some critical vacuum hose has broken cracked and this behaviour is due to lack of vaccuum somewhere as used to happen with old modulator valves my background is that my father owns a service station and i worked there on and off from years of age please feel free to be as technical as you want i d appreciate hearing any tips suggestions offers of free beer grin skoal chris
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today actually the company and the product was rovac which stood for rotary air conditioning it used a rotary compressor with what was effectively an air air heat exchanger and worked pretty well the negatives were mostly that it was about less efficient than using freon and noise problems from the high velocity pressure air all of which were solved by the time the company went bankrupt it is still a legal entity in florida but i believe completely dead and there s a heck of an opurtunity to buy up it s patents and restart the operation alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions the technology cummins is applying to diesels to comply with the newer ca emissions laws involves three things i know of all compliant diesels are turbocharged all use an aftercooler which cools the air which was heated by compression by the turbocharger up to about psi a gismo on the injector pump which senses the pressurized air intake and limits full delivery of fuel while the pressure is low no scrubbers catalytic converters etc are used the path from the turbocharger to the exhaust outlet is kept very free interestingly except for the low pressure fuel limitation power output and mileage are enhanced by these measures one can buy aftermarket turbos and aftercoolers which generate more power lots more power and these are approved by the carb dan hepner
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date fri apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpindda cup hp com lines it s nice to know that i m not alone out there when it comes to clutch etc problems on late model hondas if i get a few more supportive responses i will take them to my local honda dealer or maybe send them to the regional rep in southern calif for their input on the problem maybe some group pressure from honda owners can be placed on honda to find a solution such as a retrofit of the clutch or maybe i ll just sell the blasted vehicle and go back to driving my year old pick up which was now fixed having clutch problems and caused me to look for what i thought would be a trouble free solution ya sure not to put down honda or anything the accord has performed flawlessly in all other areas for its miles as it is said out of all this something will develop later folks not alone at all my old accord now in the hands of a sibling has a much better engagement of the clutch even the old civic we keep as a beater feels better in this aspect note that these are cars with kms and kms respectively my prelude blows both of them away in every respect except smooth clutch engagement of course the kawasaki is the best of the bunch but i need more than wheels most of the time the prelude has had a dud clutch from day and after three years and kms is no better best of luck and feel free to add this to your collection jeff goss
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary in article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu writes hi i ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary i have an toyota corolla sr with and i am in the only if you want to stop seriously though every years you should have this done brake fluid absorbs water over time the water becomes steam when the fluid gets hot and steam compresses you ll also have better luck with the longevity of master cylinder calipers and brake lines jeff goss
rec.autos	mbenz bmw question when do the new m benz c class cars come out the new nomenclature that mb has adopted will it only apply to the c class cars or will it also apply to the current s class cars does any one know what will replace the current class since the c class will be smaller and more in line with the current another question is bmw realising a new body style on the current series and series they seem to be a bit dated to me
rec.autos	horizontally opposed boxer engines was v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes there are two crank configurations for the flat the most common one is probably the crank that is very similar to the i crank which flat engines have i style cranks comparing those two engines the i and the flat have no first order shaking forces or rocking moments the i has a second order shaking force while the flat has a second order rocking moment the significant thing about the flat s second order moment is that it can be easily balanced out by adding mass at the ends of the crank the i however requires a counter rotating shaft with mass to balance out the second order forces i am sure that subaru and porsche use the boxer configuration and not the inline crank that you analyzed and compared would you care to re evaluate the other case of a flat four i think that this configuration is perfectly balanced as far as primary secondary forces and couples are concerned i have an article in front of me that says so bottom line the biggest difference between the engines would probably be their intended use the flat is easier to fit under low hoods and in rear compartments for mid or rear mounting the i can be mounted transversely to reduce hood length read cab forward other than that there isn t much fanfare to the differences between them no matter what subaru ads say technology shared with porsche indeed the flat four is also shorter than an inline so even if it is mounted longitudinally it will not take up lots of length and a longitudinal placement is easier for a wheel drive drivetrain i think that subaru s ads hold water in practice their flat fours are noticeably smoother than inline s and completely buzz free though some may not like its peculiar note but as alfa has shown a boxer four can produce a spine tingling scream that only the likes of recent hondas can approach eliot
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter a bidian writes there is another advantage with manuals you can start the car by pushing it and shifting into second gear this doesn t work with an automatic peter just for the record read your owner s manual before attempting a push start most manufacturers today do not recommend this i think the catalytic converter is the primary reason unburned gas goes down to it and may ignite when the converter gets into its operating range the best reason for a manual because you like to drive one i find that its much easier to develop lazy habits in an auto trans car remember pay attention out there stupidity behind the wheel has still taken more people to the morgue than drunk driving the problem is that we don t revoke peoples license for stupidity jeff goss
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards brian bmws boxer twin no two wheelers here been around since i think the other examples are johnny come latelies i may be wrong so no flames please jeff goss
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat i think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is a degree v and not a true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don t know about the vw bug though but i suspect that it is also a true boxer eliot
rec.autos	pennsylvania insurance limited tort option hey all i m looking at buying a new car but i m confused about the insurance coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if i opt to have it or will it be more expensive if i opt to have it what does it do for me in layman s terms please is it a good deal or should i ignore it i m not the type to sue anyone at a drop of the hat nor am i the type to report every little ding to the insurance company as a vandalism claim please help thanks in advance george
rec.autos	seeking recommendations for new car purchase folks i am going to be purchasing a new vehicle in the next few months i am trying to hold out until the fall since i have heard that i can be in a better negotiating position to purchase a right when the s are coming out i need something that can comfortably carry adults kids in car seats and pound dogs i can probably afford something in the k k range i am interested in the suv s but am not sure there are any that are decent which i can afford i think the ford explorer got good reviews from consumer reports but is above my range the isuzu rodeo is probably in my price range but i think consumer reports gave it a big thumbs down can anyone offer any suggestions i am hoping for something a little more hip than the traditional wagon and the suvs look like fun we do a lot of camping too veek
rec.autos	for sale in evanston il one car for sale oldsmobile omega four door gray power windows power steering power brakes remote trunk release starts reliably and runs well but needs some work obo for details email or michael a atkinson there is no try there is only dew asbestos nwu edu a libertarian and an nra member
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico radar radio association defending airwave rights says that geico insurance not only buy s radar for police but also actively lobbies states to promote making radar detectors illegal i think the buying part is a misuse of money but the radar detector part shows how little they know about the issue no study i am aware of has ever concluded that detectors have a negative impact on safety or that users have a higher average speed incompetence by geico i think so troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr s but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr if it s a first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with a supercharger if it s the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike s
rec.autos	re opinions on pontiac bonneville in article c ullq ds acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes i am in the market to buy a used car i am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would i be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time i know they didn t redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models i would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler in a word yes bonnevilles prices avg retail sedan d le sedan d se sedan d sse
rec.autos	re the mustang in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes on the subject of the upcoming new mustang i do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it s entirety inside information had the taurus with a v and rear wheel drive at one point i wouldn t look for a simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there s a lot of potential ford hasn t released a new car without a wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right a wheel is could happen those modular v s are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don t rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that the car magazines have printed a lot of information about the new mustang and the consensus about what to believe in my car circle is that the suspension pieces and tuning will be almost identical to the current cobra but on a stiffer body structure which will improve its behavior after the mn thunderbird cost and weight debacle ford decided independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive won t be tried again in a volume car the current l v will soldier on for about two years a version of the valve modular v in the mark viii could be offered then ford is spending big money tooling up for l and l v engines which will power most of their cars in the immediate future and therefore probably do not consider volume production of hp v engines a priority undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo i suspect ford will produce their car with higher quality than gm will achieve with the camaro firebird the way gm loses money the temptation to just get them out the door for the sake of positive cash flow will be great once demand really takes off tim gardner
rec.autos	re the mustang jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blad i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car i just saw a picture of the mustang in popular mechanics what a disappointment after being bombarded with pictures of the mach iii jp
rec.autos	michelin trx tires info needed hi all i have available to me a set of metric wheels came off a mustang or t bird which are wearing nearly bald michelin trx r tires the only place i have found these tires is the tire rack mailorder place for a pop is there a cheaper source or another manufacturer of this size tire thanks for any info please e mail responses and i will post a summary if there is any interest jas jim struglia c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou bitnet
rec.autos	re what car is this in r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean used the peugot renault volvo v in a rear engine configuration the bricklin use some merkin iron in a front engine rear drive configuration steve valin steve sgi com i ve just had my brain washed and i can t do a thing with it
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article c ui u ao murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states i know they have done it here in ct i have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled a high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance this must vary from state to state because our old company kemper wanted to drop me keeping my wife or tripple our premium because i had ticket only points for mph over speed limit well i called geico and they insured both my wife and i for less then we were previously paying kemper generally i hate the whole insurance game i realize that it is necessary but the way that a person can get dicked around doesn t make any sense one good thing about geico is that everything can be handled over the phone my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option nancy j feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens al h
rec.autos	v v v v vx i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	are ford shop manuals good i am planning on buying a repair manual for my ford taurus is the ford shop manual comprehensive enough covering repairs in all aspects of the car how about the haynes manual for tarus please email replies if possible thanks in advance jerry
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes much discussion about economics of safety deleted safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me seems to me that you would be more dead in a small car than a large car after an accident this is a very simplistic view of safety assuming that you are in a collision less likely with a more agile smaller car then the important factor is how well does the car sacrifice itself to save you this is why a thousand pound f car can hit a wall at and the driver walks out and why everybody dies when a suburban hits a wall at as i recall for the last generation suburban hic numbers as an aside just what is the point of an airbag it seems to me that seatbelts with pretensioners audi et al or a good tight point belt will prevent you every moving far enough to hit the airbag you might be saved from some flyign glass or is an airbag just a lowest common denominator safety device that is of some use in a head on collision when you are wearing no seat belt craig gerrit
rec.autos	need info on bonneville i am a little confused on all of the models of the bonnevilles i have heard of the le se lse sse ssei could someone tell me the differences are far as features or performance i am also curious to know what the book value is for prefereably the model and how much less than book value can you usually get them for in other words how much are they in demand this time of year i have heard that the mid spring early summer is the best time to buy neil gandler
rec.autos	camrys eating clutch master cyls i have both an and an camry each with manual speed transmissions the has about miles on it and the about miles about a year ago i found that the master cylinder on the clutch in the was leaking fluid around the piston seal leading to air in the system and fluid back into the passenger compartment of the car i pulled the plunger and got a rebuild kit new plunger seal etc and thought i had the problem licked much to my surprise the same problem developed several months later this time i looked carefully at the master cylinder to make sure there were no scratches burrs or other obvious causes of the problem i didn t find any ever since i have been periodically feeding the clutch hydraulins additional fluid and bleeding air from the system i knew i would be selling the car and didn t want to go all the way to solving the problem i should add that the clutch is original and that i ve had to adjust the pedal to allow maximum extension of the piston into the master cylinder in order to actuate the clutch my hypothesis is that this means that when fully depressing the clutch pedal the angle of the piston rod attached to the pedal is off the axix of the cylinder thus cocking the piston and seal and perhaps deforming it what do you think of that as an explanation can you suggest a possible fix short of replacing the master cylinder and getting a new clutch put in now the same problem except that the above diagnosis doesn t explain why all of the fluid leaked out by way of the master cylinder into the passenger compartment while i was on vacation for days during which the clutch pedal was not depressed or otherwise caused to distort what can you suggest here many thanks let s hope i don t end up going to click and clack on this bill christens barry cerulean access digex com
rec.autos	auto wax having recently purchased a probe with clear coat paint i would like to give it a good wax job what is the best type of wax to use for this type of finish is paste or liquid better i would be waxing it by hand and buffing it by hand i guess using cheesecloth to buff it anything better you would suggest i ve heard comments here before about things like turtle wax and raindance not being very good so i m wondering what is recommended for a quality finish thanks in advance bill bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear i think those with mr s would describe the engine as sweet if a little loud those with mr s i can t imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate s rusty chevy chevette with the i would want to redline it just for the music with the i would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts i guess since the mr is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr mk non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans did not eliot
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but i haven t seen it happen on my month old probe gt i think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued a service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it i have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where i purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn t know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes a scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when i open close the window in wet weather anyone elses s do this ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies i got two keys with my car but only one remote entry push button thingie but then i bought my with miles and i think it may have been a repossession so i m not surprised something was missing horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference i am seriously considering following the advice in the owners manual where it describes the procedure to follow if you discover something on your ford that could cause serious injury threaten lives etc something about notifying the national traffic safety group as well as ford those little you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns well i guess that s good in a way but in a way it s bad when someone hears that kind of horn they expect to see a big american car they may not associate the sound with a small jap car style car like the probe is tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes the mudflaps help a lot transmission the speed is a must i have always been a speed guy almost every car i ve ever owned has been a speed because i got a good deal on this car with the miles i knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is a pretty high tech automatic it is a fully electronicaly controlled speed with torque converter lockup even with the automatic i m getting mpg on the highway driving but of course driving is illegal so i probably made that sentence up around town the mileage has been around not bad for an automatic of course it doesn t have the control of a speed but since i do a lot of city driving it turns out to be very convenient it s nice to be able to drink a cup of coffee and drive at the same time although that too is illegal here in we like to control your life massachusetts no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still shakes and rattles has been my main gripe i ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but i fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be a virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k on my probe gl i got about k out of the original goodyears and had driven the replacement tires bridgestone k miles when i tradeed the car the vr firestones on my probe look like they re designed for performance ie rather wide shallow tread etc so they probably won t last as long but the car handles very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on a rough surface interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did a very very nice job on this one the car has a much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx having driven an probe for years i find the suspension interesting the car actually drives much better than the it is a very firm ride and you definitely know about each and every bump in the road yet the car remains very civilized on even the bumpiest roads you hear and feel the bumps yet the car retains its posture very well if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you well i wouldn t encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as a parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been i d not have bought the car but it s definitely not a family car also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer a c is a must on any probe from the in particular sends out a real blast of cool air when the ac is on max that lots of glass you mentioned is what gives the car the very good visibility reports you see in all the write ups most sports sporty cars don t have that good visibility i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which the complaints i ve heard re exhaust system on s have been on the gt of course being a different engine that is a differeent exhaust system i was one of those with an who qualified for the free replacement since i had already replaced the muffler when i received the notice i was am due a refund from ford i applied in february and am still waiting gave me a free rental car for the day and a half that i was without my car i was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that i was expecting the worst from them yes i was pretty amazed when i had my car in for some touch up adjustments this past week and they had to keep it overnight too busy for them to get to it and they offered to pay for a rental they did make me pay for taxes and insurance though from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though i have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but i seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article apr news arc nasa gov chung pioneer arc nasa gov po sum chung acf writes tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage i have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare i have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like a common problem with probe there is a known problem with the seals on the taillights of probes complain loudly to your dealer and get them to install new seals it is a known problem present on most if not all pre probes so you shouldn t have to pay them to fix it in my case they fixed it on my extended warranty i just had to pay a deductable the work was valued at something like with labor and parts having removed the tail lamps myself on other occasions i think their estimate was fair bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot i believe the interstates were origionally funded as part of a national defense plan etc the requirements were to move heavy army trucks at mph still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at dirk
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance and corvette prices in article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com rjn netcom com richard newton ii writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices to vettes had the same basic chassis add aluminum weaker rear axle housing all these years used same brakes similar springs etc late s was a bad year for gm reliability catastrophic converter was added in cheapest corvette to low end about k tops out about k except for those morooons that think there indy th aniversity vette is special these guys have been known to ask k i don t think they get it best buy convertables i got my for k needs body work but i m willing parts for all are readily avail at swap meets and mail order etc v reliability looks independant suspension wheel disk and all under k and they thought a miata was a good deal also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage my origional inquires to my insurance agent i can drive my convertable for miles or less per year i must keep it in a locked garage and it will cost me of the stated value per year does this sound right i ve also been looking at vettes recently and found a convertible that i like at a dealer i currently own an ford escort gt which is insured through state farm i called em up and asked about the rates if i sell the escort the vette insurance is per months if i keep the escort the vette insurance is per months the escort s insurance goes down by to approx per months i m male and have a good driver discount another variable would be where you live best bet is to just call up some insurance brokers and get a quote state farm says they base the price on the fair market value of the car which is determined by an outside apprasier they look in the newspaper and call up dealers to find out what the going rate is and adjust it for the condition of the car to get the values above they went on the selling price of the car the dealer s asking price is i need to do research to find out if this is reasonable in any case i told state farm the value was k get an appraiser to look at the car he will check serial numbers and look for origional equipe depending on what mods have been done the car could be worth only k problems like wrong engine trans wrong paint type vetts used lacquer an modification would reduce tthe value but your looking for a car to drive right this sounds like a ball park price for a small block cu in manual no air car a would put it closer to k get it appraised for insurance purposes also
rec.autos	re geico i m glad this forum came up i ve been pricing insurance lately and had considered geico but no more any company with practices like theirs can e s a d i ll stay with liberty mutual steve nicholas wells computer center georgia state university oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu a risk is not a risk until it is taken
rec.autos	v probably the most famous v is the one cadillac made from about to they had to scale down then because the great depression really put the crimp on luxury cars it had cubic inches with over two hundred horse power they don t make them like they used to there were others though packard had one until about whe it down sized to their legendary twin six their mainstay for the next twenty years lincoln and pierce arrow might have also had one but i am not two sure most luxury and semi luxury cars of this era at least experimented with v if they did not actually produce them there was actually a cylinder war among the big three to see who could produce the biggest engine big m standard disclaimer applies because i can t think of anything wittier
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho review of ford taurus sho by gene kim background last week i bought a ford taurus sho moving up from driving a toyota celica st and a oldsmobile cutlass i have been interested in buying a sho for about five months and have been combing the classifieds in denver and chicago every week i bought a remarkably clean maroon red sho with k miles on it for as far as i can tell this is about under blue book and i still have another miles before the extended service plan runs out as one should with any pre shos i made sure that the car was already refit with the upgraded clutch and pressure plate as well as having been recalled for upgraded rotors and seatbelt attachments however my sho does not have the newer rod shifter i understand i can get this for from any ford service center in addition the car received the full tune up at k miles receiving new platinum plugs and valve adjustment for a car with k miles on it the car was virtually immaculate the clearcoat paint job was devoid of any large chips or dents although the front air dam molding was covered with lots of small scratches not surprising since most of the miles were spent on the highway having driven a smaller two door coupe for so long i was a bit concerned about whether i could get used to driving a larger car to my surprise the size of the car doesn t bother me at all it seems just as nimble as my celica no comparisons with my oldsmobile visibility from the driver s seat is excellent helped mostly by of the small the quarter windows aft of the back seat door windows and in front of the c pillar and rear window parallel parking is a bit more difficult but other than that i love the size in fact i m starting to appreciate the large trunk as i pack up for a hour drive to washington dc for the summer more on the ride later in this review engine as with anyone even slightly interested in shos i was very interested in the valve l yamaha shogun engine i was not disappointed base performance of the engine under rpms is good you can even do reasonable launches from second gear although i don t make a practice of this the engine revs smoothly and eagerly tooling around town does not require many shifts this is good since the shifter is definitely one of the weakest points of the car more on this later while the performance of the engine under rpms may be unremarkable it undergoes a jekyll hyde transformation once you hit higher revs at rpms a butterfly valve opens and you can literally hear and feel the geometry of the engine changing as twelve more valves open up the engine soars to its rpm redline and you are treated to in my opinion the sweetest sounding v around the engine inexplicably sounds overjoyed to be at rpm i ve noticed that when i drive around town i constantly watch the tach to see how far below rpm i am to go from rpm to you may have to punch the accelerator while torque is more than adequate it doesn t come fully online until those other valves are used transmission when car and driver first reviewed the car in they marvelled at how ford had put such a wimpy clutch and balky shifter into the car i remember driving a friend s parent s sho in and remember thinking about whether i had the leg strength to drive the car in traffic the clutch was that stiff that was back then the entire clutch assembly on my sho has been replaced under a ford recall in the clutch on the sho feels no stiffer than the one on my toyota celica in fact the friction point seems a bit larger and more forgiving when playing with the shifter with the car parked the shifter felt very reasonable the and gates were where you d expect it to be and the shifting action was smooth on the road it s much the same but you have to shift slowly make no mistake it s a clumsy shifter when hurrying shifts like when i was initially trying to impress friends i consistently miss the shift often grope clumsily for the shift and sometimes even muff the shift i find this pretty amazing in a car like this it also took me several days to realize that you get the smoothest shifts when you take your time seems obvious but compared to my toyota and my friend s honda this seems atrocious and clumsy someone on rec autos noted that crxs should blow shos off the line because of the incredibly clumsy shifter i now shift much more sedately and the shifter seems more reasonable when you play within these bounds the shifter works smoothly with no surprises i don t know whether the rod shifter upgrade would help at all along these same lines i initially had trouble shifting gears smoothly again slowing down the shifts and taking more care to match revs when letting out the clutch helped immensely this took several days for me to get the hang of i think some of my problems were because i ve never had a car with enough power to balk at bad shifts in higher gears occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple of months a quirk when i upshift and the engine drops back to rpm i hear a whirring and then a grinding noise coming from the the engine compartment not terribly loud but the passenger can definitely hear it i asked about it when i was looking at the car as do all my passengers apparently this is a definitely a sho sound and is the gearbox apparently called gear rollover replies to my queries on rec autos are at the end of this review exterior as i mentioned before i am astounded by how well the body of this sho has stood up paint chipping on the front bumper and grille are virtually non existent looking at how older tauri sometimes don t age so gracefully i wonder what the guys at ford did differently to the sho bodies the body in my opinion is extremely attractive with matching color body moldings than the stock tauri for some odd reason the sho seems different enough from vanilla tauri to get stares at stoplights of course this could be my overactive imagination shos get fog lights a more open grille a completely monochromatic exterior and a deeper ground skirt in the back with sho stenciled in relief i ve seen a couple shos whose owners have colored these in with florescent colors or in black yuck i don t think the car is flashy i like it that way i feel almost anonymous with all those tauri out there but different and distinctive enough to those of us who care interior the interior is what really makes me feel like i don t deserve the car the seats are grey leather the steering wheel and shifter are covered with black leather and the entire instrument panel is done in a black grey metallic scheme the instrumentation is stock taurus except for the mph speedo and rpm tach you get a center console with two cupholders a large compartment under the radio great for a cd player an armrest that contains yet another compartment three appropriately sized coin holders for tollways i think and a compartment for holding cassette tapes there s map holders in the doors and an oddly small glove compartment i spilled a whole can of coke in the cupholder and was delighted to find that the entire rubber holder can be removed and washed in a sink hey i m really impressed with the ergonomics and thoughtfulness that went into its design and it s a before the interior was upgraded the backseat is bigger than any car i ve had why do they need so much space no smart ass comments please the driver and passenger seat have lumbar and side bolsters from what i hear it s not uncommon for the side bolsters to show wear mine is no exception the left side bolster on the driver s has cracked and i m not convinced the right bolster is inflating all the way a big surprise for me i forgot that shos don t have a normal hand parking brake instead they have the regular parking brake that you press with your left foot too bad again i m getting used to it but it seems a bit anachronistic to me ride the suspension is nice and stiff too stiff it s stiffer than any car i ve had a friend s new toyota celica st seems tauter and is still able to soak up bumps better the sho seems stiffer with less ability to soak up bumps driving over railroad tracks is a noisy and jarring affair on the other hand taking turns feels wonderful because the body is so rigid and doesn t flex at all i listened for that before i bought the car on the highway the ride is great when i drove the car from chicago back to purdue i had trouble keeping under mph let alone from trying to see what mph really feels like it s a relatively quiet ride but the sunroof rattles i ve tried to find out what exactly makes all the noise up there but it seems to be the window that rests on the rails no easy way to get rid of it i think over the past three days i ve oscillated between thinking the suspension is wonderful and perfect and thinking that the ride is way too rough not for me mind you but i wonder whether i would advise my dad to buy one for himself but i ve discovered as with the shifter if you take your time with shifts you ll have no reason to complain let me explain the ride is worst when turning and applying lots of power to the wheels i feel the wheels scrabbling for traction and torque steer making the car skitter left and right after i understood this i avoid the limits of traction and i m a happy camper again it s not body rigidity but the composure of the car as if matching the suspension the steering feel is quite heavy my first impression of driving my sho was how hard you had to turn the wheel at highway speeds it tracks straight as an arrow but when driving around a parking lot the high effort steering didn t seem so useful however it s reasonable but it doesn t communicate the road to the driver as well as a ford probe gt imho it s much better than the steering on my celica st i wonder how bad this car is during winter miscellaneous notes gripes the rattles from the sunroof is intermittent some days it rattles loudly other days i look up wondering where all the noise went activating the sunroof is sometimes very noisy loud squealing as it retracts on its rails i wonder if there is a quick fix for this again other days it completely disappears function of humidity once i made the connection between the sometimes awful feeling suspension and torque steer i ve never complained about ride i wish the seats had more support under the thighs also i wish the side bolsters would close more tightly i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive i currently have goodyear gt s that cost the previous owner for four i used to hate the ford stereo systems whose idea was it to use a volume paddle now to my amazement i don t really mind and sometimes think it s an okay idea pretty ridiculous though getting up to rpm sometimes seems to be a chore but this is no big deal there is more than enough torque down low i often goof up the shifting when driving with friends it took me a couple of days before i could really shift smoothly from nd to rd gear hard to believe isn t it my car has almost miles on it my parents noted that it is almost impossible to find a low mileage sho astute observation imho i wonder how long i can make my sho last i just bought a book titled drive it forever for tips in this department the goofy parking brake pedal still throws me for a loop i once parked the car in gear and then accidentally let out the clutch after i started it the car jolted forward and bounced off the car in front of me no paint damage at all but starting the car is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also i began to wonder how strong that brake really is today i backed out of parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed the glowing brake light oops the driver s power window creaks when closed all the way the same thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the other windows work smoothly likes i m liking the interior amenities more and more each day the cupholders are great i didn t expect to use the keyless entry buttons so much but it really is handy you can lock all the doors by pressing the and buttons together neat and you can never lock yourself out of the car i really feel like i don t deserve this car i really can t believe that i could afford it i got this car ten years ahead of schedule i love this car so much that i ve been telling my parents to look into buying one i love this car so much that i wrote this k file i meant to write a couple of lines and ended up with this if there were a j d powers survey for used car owners i would have an opportunity to express my incredible satisfaction of owning this car i don t like thinking about getting another car but at this point in time i m sure i d buy another sho for under you can t beat it next time with an airbag and abs though insurance wise this car is also a big win i pay the same premiums as on my toyota celica despite that it has nearly twice the horsepower other odds and ends much to my amazement there is no sho mailing list anywhere maybe because the sho registry publication has filled this void i haven t joined yet but i ve noticed that queries about shos still appear on rec autos about once a month owners of shos are always quick to respond and are very vocal fans of the cars maybe some of the most vocal on rec autos i ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as well as other posts with useful information on these cars i ll be posting this in the form of a faq soon if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list please speak up i don t know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one but maybe someone out there does gene kim genek mentor cc purdue edu
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes v legend mr mr honda prelude nope cylinder v don t know of any you didn t try very hard lexus infinty several of each i wasn t aware that there was another infiniti with a v besides the q bmw one model series several the i i i i liter and liter v mercedes one or two models one or two there s at least one v for every platform except the compact e s class sel sel w e e and roadster sl acura one model can t remember the name right now acura doesn t have any v cars at the moment v jaguar xjs bmw il mercedes xxxsl sl and sel the other sls sl and sl are v and inline six
rec.autos	last of the v interceptors does anyone know what kind of car mad max used in road warrior they called it the last of the v interceptors i couldnt tell what it was it was so chopped up thanks
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article r r binnfja tamsun tamu edu jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area i have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare i have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like a common problem with probe po sum chung email chung ames arc nasa gov
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article apr bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car imho the best way to reduce risk when operating a vehicle is being able to avoid hazards and for that reason my preferred vehicle is a motorcycle when i do use a four wheeler my primary reasons are it will keep me dry it will keep me warm or it will carry more cargo if the four wheeler has as much collision protection as the average motorcycle then it has enough form me how do you define safe one definition of safe is without risk is chas dod oh how can you be in two places at once when you re not anywhere at all firesign theatre
rec.autos	re the mustang the current l v will soldier on for about two years a version of the valve modular v in the mark viii could be offered then how unfortunate for anyone who loves the simplicity with which and fords and and chevys can be built up still it will provide a needed punch for the ford to stay up with the new firebird camaros it wouldn t surprise me if ford called the engine a litre in the mustang we all know that the current is really litres anyway undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo i must agree i don t think i ve seen anything as impressive looking as the new firebird since my friend back home sold his formula firebird for a paltry without even telling me the bastard george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	broncos does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos i m not talking about bronco ii s i m referring to the broncos that began production in based on the f chassis i believe i need to know what to look for can the tops be removed from all models how easily can that be done also what kind of price range should i be looking at i e what is blue book i m in college right now and would like a jeep unfortunately i ve got a bit of a ride to school and i need to carry a lot of junk to and from the dormitory in the spring fall i think that the bronco with the removable fiberglass would be a better read bigger choice than a cj or cj even better anybody in the maryland virginia area interested in selling one george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine yeah it seems toyota has always had a problem with those s and sound i know the celicas with em were pretty noisey and the mr s were no exception now about large displacement s with bad noise i have a grand am h o quad and it sounds really good almost like a larger now toyota is coming out with an all new celica next year and the mr well who knows later chris
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production in apr ucsu colorado edu dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes uznerk mcl ucsb edu andrew krenz writes i personally like the looks of the impala ss the caprice was definately weird looking until this year when they made the rear wheel openings look more like a normal car but the impala impresses me gm can t exactly shove the lt in everything they make you know only the bigger stuff i d like to see it next in a series pickup that would be a hot setup what about in a full size blazer as well would this engine have the gobs of torque necessary for off roading if so this would be even better than the syclone well an lt blazer wouldn t come close to a gmc typhoon in speed i think its too heavy as it is right now the normal hp engine has plenty of power for a full size blazer of course i m not saying gm shouldn t put the lt in it it seems like they have a real winner with that engine why spend so much more money into getting a valve dohc v when you can take an lt it even seems to get pretty good gas mpg for a that is talking about impala ss will this be in the door caprice body i m just curious if chevy is trying to resurrect their door muscle cars or to compete with the european super sedans yeah it s a flat black lowered door caprice riding on aluminum rims and eagle gs c tires the rest of the car is basically a caprice ltz read plush police package with horsepower i heard that chevy is resurrecting the monte carlo but that s going to get their dohc v and not the lt jon dunn andrew krenz uznerk mcl ucsb edu krenz engrhub ucsb edu
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems in article c sydn c v megatest com jao megatest com john oswalt writes however if you agree some terms and then when about to sign the dealer slips you a contract with different terms and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to that is fraud there is no day limit on restitution for fraud you may have to sue and win to get out of this you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue on the other hand remember the old adage that a verbal agreement isn t worth the paper it s printed on once you sign you are going to have one hell of a time proving fraud based on a comparison to what you thought you were going to sign being in the right is one thing proving it is another brian g gordon briang sun com briang netcom com b gordon on genie on compuserve bgordon on aol
rec.autos	vw jetta gli help i am considering the purchse of a vw jetta gli with k miles on it i recently found out that there are two versions of the gli v and v i know of three differences between the two cars that both carry the same name the v version has more horsepower wheel discs and a standard sunroof oops that s the difference between the gli v and the regular gl so in addition to the engine what other differences exist between the two models of the jetta gli more importantly how can i tell which version this one is there are no badges that said v so i am inclined to think that is the v version assuming this one the one i looked at is the v version is there a valid reason to buy it instead of a comparably equipped gl which would cost less of course i would love to get the v version but money talks please email any responses thank you peter volpe pv albnyvms bitnet
rec.autos	question to nissan zx owners gurus esp models i purchased a used nissan zx non turbo last year i had a question on gear rpm ratios right now in th mph i m at rpms mph i m at about rpms is this about the norm i m an auto neophyte so i m just wondering if these are the proper ranges somehow the rpm figures seem high a friend of mine just told me he can hit mph in rd on his chevy beretta l v also anyone know the top speed attainable redline for this model z not that i would try it but it would be an interesting factoid thanx derek fire and love the two extremes wojciech ossek nrl navy mil that we live between fire and love there s more to life than surfing or snowboarding the eye can see guardian ridin the wave
rec.autos	re the mustang they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there drivel i received delivery of my trans am weeks after i ordered promised weeks and paid over dealer invoice which is a discount off of msrp i only have about miles on it but so far no problems and it seems very well put together by the way first year production will be about cars dealers would like you to think there is a shortage but considering they only sold about f bodies last year and the new model was introduced mid year that is not going to create a shortage gm planning on ramping to about f bodies next year according to a wsj article several people have mentioned seeing a photo of the mustang in popular mechanics i saw a photo of it in motor trend january issue p direct side on view although they described it as a seriously handsome car with broad shoulders i thought it looked pretty boring in that view roofline reminded me of a toyota celica yuch description of mechanicals same as has been reported from the pm article terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	re what car is this you guys are correct the bricklin was produced in canada the national museum of science and technology here in ottawa has one and sometimes they put it on display most of the time it stays in storage because the museum doesn t have much room it s a big deal for a car to be canadian and that s why they have it if anybody s a fan they also have a nice green riviera that looks like it just came out of the showroom mike harker ottawa ontario canada voice
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where maryland and other states to the original poster read the last issues of car and driver about this it s interesting and should be illegal chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re geico goldberg oasys dt navy mil mark goldberg writes in rec autos jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico i strongly agree with jeff here s my horror story many years back i switched to geico from state farm to save some i have a relatively new sports car for which we covered with liability collision and comprehensive with this make of car new models came out in january not september like other makes the car was purchased in august of that year we also had a much older clunker for which we only wanted liability low and behold a vandal slashed the roof of the sports car and we put in a claim this was in october still the current model year for the car a new top with installation was we had deductible so we should have gotten you had to go to geico s local office to have an adjuster see the car unlike state farm that sent the adjusters to the shop or your place he said since the car is now one year old we ll depreciate the top by so you ll get on the claim this will also count as an accident against you so your rate may increase the hassle continued then we got a letter from geico saying claim denied your policy on this car doesn t cover this i then learned that their records had the full coverage collision etc on our old clunker and only had liability for this new car they mixed up our cars in their records i fixed the top myself with some carpet thread and dropped my claim they still charged me with an accident i cancelled my policy and switched to another company the coup de gras came when they sent me a bill for an additional balance due for the difference in collision comprehensive cost between my sports car and my clunker i returned the bill unpaid with a nastygram plus explicity directions to perform recto cranial insertion haven t heard from them since everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein good for you i am convinced that someone should start a boycott against geico any takers chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	looking for low lease rate on toyota previa what s the best lease quote that anyone has seen on a toyota previa dx or dx all trac for a two year lease if you know where i can get a better rate than month please contact me with the name and phone of the dealership will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	toyota coralla fx for sale toyota corolla fx am fm radio nothing else low mileage i ride my bike to work dark blue good condition only i am leaving the country for a year and must sell this great city car call renee fecteau leave message do not email to this account
rec.autos	bmw i i looked at that bimmer yesterday it s an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants i liked the car despite it s auto tranny but my wife will be a primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the a c seems to have a leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is a bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that s teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is a shifty sob telling strange stories i hate that i would never buy from a persom like that except how often you see a descent i for that amount of money he also said that although i could bring a mechanicin he wouldn t let me check the car by taking it to a garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there s practically no rust i know there was an article on i in r d a few years back anybody remembers what issue mike s
rec.autos	compilation of problems chevy caprice my caprice classic with k miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that i am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please e mail or post when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually a loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential what could cause this is the differential going bad i recently had the differential fluid changed and it did have tiny metal bits in it and no the sound is not something rolling around in the trunk on starting the car i get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves going bad worn rings anyone know whether the valves on the tbi engine can be lapped brakes more pedal travel than i feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is relatively clear pedal does not slowly sink to the floor when held down pedal does not feel spongey but i suppose that bleeding the brakes might help could anything else cause this tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark my springs all around are just about shot i have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned i d be interested in hearing from any gm full size rwd owners out there with stories to tell and or advice here in philly these cars are apparently stolen quite often and converted into taxis apparently the cab conversion shops will get a junk title for the car or switch vins with a car about to be junked about of philly cabs are caprice s with most of the rest being crown vic s with a few old new yorkers and impalas broughams andrew white awhite mcneil sas upenn edu
rec.autos	market access in article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like a shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes a pontiac grand am suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however a dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea a ford taurus suffers the same problem a honda accord costs i am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy a honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan sayoonara o o ooo u ooo jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka imi ga nai yo umarete kurou shite yatto shinde shimau semete shinde kara itsu made mo anshin dekiru kami sama ima irasshaimasen ka
rec.autos	re v v v v vx ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com the viper isn t an inline or flat is it i m pretty sure its a v also the cizeta is a v but it may not yet be more than a dream chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions from article r i minn n cronkite cisco com by kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently i m leaning toward the toyota cause i ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause i think it s the best looking of the three but i thought i d see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl i agree that the toyota is the best looking i just didn t fit plus it is the highest cost of all the ones you mentioned i have good friends who have all three of the trucks you talked about the ones with kids all went to the ford because of the room required to carry a couple of kids and all the junk you need the single ones went for the toyota and the nissan every one has been happy with what they bought although no one is into serious four wheel off road driving karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie bentz puryear ncsc bep at t tsc e maplewood ave englewood colorado powder skiing the path to salvation
rec.autos	re market access in article apr leland stanford edu underdog leland stanford edu dwight joe writes in article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like a shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes a pontiac grand am suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however a dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea a ford taurus suffers the same problem a honda accord costs i am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy a honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car i believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically i think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu s like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating a vicious cycle i have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won t work together stubborn like a mule the car either won t go forward or won t stop at all
rec.autos	emergency brake on nissan maxima just a quick simple question really how many wheels are affected by the emergency brake on an nissan maxima i ve heard that all four are affected but this would seem unusual to me i thought the emergency brake on most cars only affected the rear wheels also how powerful is the emergency brake usually enough to lock wheels at mph hmmmm i just have to wonder about some of the things i hear outatime
rec.autos	thoughts on the vw corrado vr i was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr that s about it outatime
rec.autos	re market access in article r acf nh agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car i believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically i think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu s like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating a vicious cycle i have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won t work together stubborn like a mule the car either won t go forward or won t stop at all hahahahahaha gasp pant hm i m not sure whether the above was just a silly remark or a serious remark but in case there are some misconceptions i think henry robertson hasn t updated his data file on korea since mid s owning a car in korea is no longer a luxury most middle class people in korea can afford a car and do have at least one car the problem in korea especially in seoul is that there are just so many privately owned cars as well as taxis and buses the rush hour has become a hour phenomenon and that there is no place to park last time i heard back in january the kim administration wanted to legislate a law requireing a potential car owner to provide his or her own parking area just like they do in japan also henry would be glad to know that hyundai isn t the only car manufacturer in korea daewoo has always manufactured cars and i believe kia is back in business as well imported cars such as mercury sable are becoming quite popular as well though they are still quite expensive finally please ignore henry s posting about korean politics and bureaucracy he s quite uninformed t h brian chung happiness is this sig was brought jfe alchemy tn cornell edu tea earl grey hot to you by frungy the jfe cornella bitnet lake st apt a sport of kings cesr thc ithaca ny
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there
rec.autos	honda civic saturn sl info needed to anyone with experience about honda civic ex or dx or saturn sl i would be interested in knowing how reliable these cars are how expensive they are to own and operate parts maintenance gas insurance if the dealers are good and if they actually live up to their economy image another question what would i expect to pay for a civic ex coupe with automatic air and an am fm radio mail to the address below or post to this group thanks rob bell plains nodak edu
rec.autos	houston auto insurance hello i am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school i will be living on the corner of s mian and university blvd i was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in a similar situation please e mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu
rec.autos	buying a used car i have a few questions about the tax on a used car purchase i live in new york state and i am going to buy a used car i know that i will have to pay tax when i go to register the car but i would like to know of tax is payed on the book value of the car or on the purchase price also what tax rate is used the owner lives in albany tax and i will be living in saratoga with tax do i pay albany tax or saratoga tax the difference is a whole one more thing how much does it cost for the usual year registration did i leave anything out what else might i have to know to purchase and register a used car i ve never done this before thank you peter volpe
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear i think those with mr s would describe the engine as sweet if a little loud those with mr s i can t imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate s rusty chevy chevette with the i would want to redline it just for the music with the i would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts i guess since the mr is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr mk non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans well the is music to my ears i often turn my stereo off and just run it towards red line on nice twisty roads but toyota engines at idle have a strange bells and whisstles at the bottom of a matal can sound i can t describe it any better just like all the older benzes have a very characteristic clattering sound at idle do you know what i m referring to mike s
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c tb f usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too hahahahahahahahahahaha thanks for that i haven t laughed so much in ages kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm geico supports reads gives to police laser radars they have been known to be very picky no sports cars no radar detectors although maryland insurance board over rules this consistantly no turbos basically it seems if you need to use your insurance ever they don t want you they once told me they wouldn t insure me perfect record because of my corvette even though it would be insured by another specialty insurance we must insure all the cars i think this rep didn t know what she was talking about geico is cheap but if you ever file a claim be prepared to be dropped i think in most areas two tickets will do it geico will never see a dime from me if i can help it state farm slighty higher than most but very good response not as picky as geico
rec.autos	opel gt are the any opel gt s out there i m wondering if there are enough to starting a mail list matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	keyless entry now how bruce james writes without the key though the steering column lock would have to be sacrificed not necessarily maybe some sort of servo lock or something along those lines could be used to acheive the same effect maybe a solenoid type of thing too george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re impala ss going into gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of a corvette and save about i like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in a big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article c ydwp g ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe says either choice is good but beware that i did not experience reasonable mileage with the v average city driving was mpg with about avg on the highway my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v and at are remarkably smooth johnny p stephens sig file upgrade on backorder will be distance learning technology here any day now arizona state university opinions expressed are mine
rec.autos	re zx or sc in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice having driven both and having owned an sc for months now all i can say is it depends they re both great cars in fact my wife and i are saving our pennies so we can get her the zx convertible in a year the zx handles like a dream while the sc rides like a dream fit and finish on both are excellent but the lexus gets the nod in customer satisfaction they re both very attractive and hideously expensive the resale value of the sc is better than the zx the zx isn t available with traction control which makes it a handful on slippery surfaces jim battan sequent computer systems beaverton or battan sequent com or uunet sequent battan
rec.autos	re geeko waz geico annoyance in article c w gf m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates actually i ve had a bad habit of stuffing a whole bunch of other garbage junk mail in along with whatever else into anybody s prepaid envelopes until they almost burst i believe they pay postage by weight heh heh heh anyways don t tear up the quotes just yet i sometimes use their quotes or other insurance quotations as leverage to haggle for a lower rate elsewhere usually it works to your advantage if they are lower aaron
rec.autos	re what car is this in article r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean had the yucky prv v engine a joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine is a mighty boring piece of junk with approx hp doesn t like revs at all if you look at the delorean in the movie back to the future you will note that they changed the engine sound to a big v a real delorean doesn t sounds half as good you will also note that every time they have to spin the tires in the movie the ground is all wet this is because a delorean can t make a burnout on a dry road the weak engine thats mounted over the rear axle makes it almost impossible markus larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos
rec.autos	mgb questions my son is considering the purchase of a mgb which has been substantially restored the odometer has rolled over but we can t be sure of the actual mileage the engine and drive train apparently weren t touched in the restoration except for a new carb and a few hoses he plans to do vacuum and compression checks to see what they might tell us about the engine the body and undercarriage have no visible rust the interior is new as are tires front brakes not sure about the back battery bumpers and other misc parts the paint is checked in a few places and scuffed here and there allegedly by a wind blown car cover it seemed to handle ok except for soft front shocks questions are there problem areas common to mgbs we should check out the brakes seem soft and rather ineffective what should we expect in the way of braking action it seemed to be doggy when accelerating from a stop what should we expect it to do given the cylinder engine the top is in place but will not reach a number of the snaps the weather was cold should the vinyl stretch and fit when it warms up or is it forever shrunk is it normal for the wire wheels to be painted or are they usually chromed given this rather limited description what would be a reasonable price gee this turned out to be a little long sorry while my brother once owned an xk jag what a car we re obviously not into sports cars any help with these questions or suggestions on other things to investigate would surely be appreciated phil truesdale truesdal david wheaton edu
rec.autos	states that charges sales tax after trade in which western states have laws that charge sales tax on the difference between a new car s price and the trade in s value i know california charges you on the full value of the new vehicle regardless of trade in if you are a california resident is it legal to buy a car in a state other than california without also paying california sales tax how does california enforce any law that requires you to also pay california sales tax on top of the out of state tax will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have a streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything i ever experienced even during the height of the s racial struggles i am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in a state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from and i thought the nutters were the ones throwing the bricks from the bridge gee i guess you touched my hot button i d better go cool off somewhere an institution tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa kevinh hasler asco ch
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller in article c uflh p srgenprp sr hp com markg sr hp com mark goldsworthy writes i just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is a little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was a stanza was that the owners manual called the car a nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way to avoid paperwork associated with re certification as a brand new car etc so for ad purposes it s a brand new nameplate for paperwork it s still a stanza spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if i opt to have it or will it be more expensive if i opt to have it what does it do for me in layman s terms please is it a good deal or should i ignore it i m not the type to sue anyone at a drop of the hat nor am i the type to report every little ding to limited tort option will lower your rates if you choose it you can t sue others for pain suffering but you still can sue for economic loss so you can sue for your wrecked car and for medical bills but you can t sue for for pain and suffering at least that s how i understand it michal
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article dxp lut fi jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos i would guess the high price of gas in europe compared to the us has always favoured cylinder manuals small engines with autos are a real bore but why not turn the question around why are automatics so common in the us my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque rich v s in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress and that this has just lived on and also an automatic with a v engine can be real fun to drive markus chevy camaro th peugout speed don t ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico i would gladly spend twice the money for insurance rather than using geico not only do they supply radar guns to the police they also want to make radar detectors illegal they also ask if you have a detector probably to put you in a high risk group or just refuse to insure you i know a few people who were droped by geico due to an accident that was not their fault rob gallant oasys dt navy mil
rec.autos	compilation of problems aw my caprice classic with k miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that i am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please e mail or post aw when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually a loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential wheel bearing ujoint aw on starting the car i get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves bad valve stem seals aw brakes more pedal travel than i feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is worn pads rear brakes not adjusted up tight or worn out drums of low pedal complaints usually are from a rear brake problem aw tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark possible modulator valve if equipped with one also could be the kickdoen cable aw my springs all around are just about shot i have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned difficult on front easy on rear they are not expensive about for front and less than for the rear its also kind of dangerous to work on the front springs without the proper equipment don slmr a i put spot remover on my dog spots gone ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
rec.autos	extensions i was wondering what the country extension are sometimes i just don t have a clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus chevy camaro th peugout speed don t ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car
rec.autos	review audi s quattro it s been a while since i ve reviewed a car but today i paid a visit to an old friend whose love for audis has been so overwhelming that he makes a not too sucessful living selling them without further delay i will get to the audi s servotronic steering for those who are not familiar with what servotronic is it is the name for the speed variable power steering manufactured by zf and used in audis and bmws i have been outspoken in my damming of servotronic over the past couple of months and this was based on magazine reviews and drives of the audi cs quattro and the audi cs fwd i am quite happy to report now that on the s the servotronic is inoffensive i suppose that due to the fat gumball tires the servotronic has been loaded up more and this so far has been the best implementation that i have tried it is far from perfect mind you and i d be much happier if it was an option that i could refuse but on the s i no longer consider this to be bad enough where i feel the entire car is ruined the steering is still a tad too light but it is accurate and i suppose the stiffly sprung chassis sends back so much information that some makes it through to the driver s hands so there is feel and there is accuracy in the s s steering but there is also room for improvement i consider the s s steering to be better than the japanese competition primarily because the japanese do not believe in feel and engineer it out completely engine wheee what a pressure cooker with just miles on the clock i did not expect the s to be producing anywhere close to what it will be putting out miles later but still the car packs a terrific punch for a turbocharged machine it is very unusual in that it encourages lazy driving i e low revs high gear it is so supremely flexible that one could hardly believe that there s only liters of displacement to move this pound car around in such a fashion with maximum torque available at rpm and a rpm redline the car can pretty much be left in third all day which translates to a speed range of something like mph a chracteristic that one normally associates with large capacity v s the technical achievement is breadthtaking throttle response is right up there with a good atmospheric engine in fact it would even put peaky multivalve engines to shame downshifts are almost unnecessary it is more fun to use the overboost feature than to rev the engine for those not familiar the s engine features up to seconds of additional turbo boost for passing sort of like lighting up the after burners in a jet fighter one could with the right foot only in third gear blast the car from to in just a few moments simply by flooring the gas as far as the numbers go maximum torque available in overboost mode shoots up to about lb ft incredible for a liter it takes a few moments for it to develop overboost but it is well worth waiting for since this is quite a heavy car one s body parts are not flung around like say the corrado vr the acceleration is smooth and strong somewhat similar to riding in a jetliner as it accelerates down the runway on takeoff also one is treated to a very distinctive and entertaining whistle from the turbo the only entertaining sound to come out of a very refined but bland sounding banger yes audi has refined the to the point where at rpm it sounds as serene as it does at the smoothness is outstanding but not quite up to the standards of a very good e g a valve bmw i d say that in terms of refinement i e willingness to rev smoothness lack of harshness under full acceleration it is better than many v s however lost in the refinement process is the characteristic cylinder bark that made the older engines so characterful if not terribly refined the valve turbo sounds pretty bland except for the whistle under full boost subjectively i d rate the vw vr engine as being far more musical than the turbo also audi s own v is also far more musical with a rorty race car growl when pressed though none of these can match its grunt the only hint of the engine s true capacity occurs when one is taking off from rest after the turbo has come to a near stop with the extra inertia from the permanently engaged wd system one has to be somewhat delicate in feeding in the clutch to prevent an embarassing stall alternately one could use more revs in both cases a very small price to pay for such a fantastic engine i think that audi of america should offer an automatic option for this car just as they offer though in extremely small numbers a speed for the much peakier v the characteristics of the engine are perfect for an automatic ironically in europe a slush is available but none is offered for the land of the slush marketing twits rearing their ugly heads again chassis i ve noticed that audis tend to have very wide wheels and relatively modest tire widths the car comes with firestones of size zr which is not uncommon at all however the very attractive spoke wheels are no less than inches wide so there is no sidewall bulge whatsoever combined with the flared wheel arches the s has a mouth watering macho yet subdued look on rough concrete it becomes immediately clear that the new body style has made significant advances in structural rigidity as well as road noise suppression i suppose the two are inter related but i digress to use a cliche the s s body feels like it has been carved out of stone flex is totally undetectable even when going over rough roads with a super rigid body like this stiff springs and stiff dampers do not cause excessive harshness and while the s s ride quality will never worry a lexus it will also not draw comparisons to trucks or pony cars the servotronic steering has already been mentioned i consider it to be inoffensive because it did not inhibit spirited cornering i was able to test the car s cornering powers without too much trepidation i think a new concept is at work in this car with its fat gumball tires talking about understeer or oversteer is practically meaningless on a banked highway on ramp i went in slow and started applying power as i went around i could feel the g forces build to the point where the skin on my face was being tugged sideways yet the car was totally and completely obedient to throttle and steering inputs it felt that the limits were not even close to being approached the g forces were thrilling but the entire affair of going around a curve is strangely uninvolving you tell the car what you want and it does it end of story i think that i am starting to relate more and more to those reviewers who were highly impressed by the honda nsx s clinical efficiency but were unable to fall in love with the car the brakes have a very good firmness to them and stop the car pretty well too though i ve read that they are prone to fade i am not too surprised since the s does not have uprated brakes over the base audi fwd harder pads would help but that in turn would lead to a more wooden response when cold i am starting to see a trend among the luxury sports sedan makers where extra weight is not being offset by additional braking capacity the ls s fade performance is nothing to brag about neither is the q s or the legend s brake fade these days seem to be a forgotten virtue when everybody s attention is focused on anti lock capability comfort for a car with such sporty abilities its comfort levels are also excellent the cabin is beautifully appointed with carbon fiber panel inserts in place of the wood trim of the s all the expected gizmos are there heated seats power seats seat memory power this and that the glaring ommision was the trip computer which was removed because audi hasn t gotten it to work reliably yet that means that the car has no boost gauge a real disappointment taking into account how much the turbo dominates its performance unusual for the germans the s comes with a honda style moonroof as well as the very intelligent dial a sunroof position rotary switch noise levels including engine and tire noise is so low that i wouldn t consider the lexus advantage in this area to be significant enough to sway a potential buyer conclusion even though few will be able to afford an audi s at its sticker price of k the car is a bargain if one takes into account what it has to offer over the competition the valve turbo is a real gem even if it doesn t produce ferrari sounds no other luxury sports sedan maker offers the utter security of quattro all wheel drive which to some is worth the extra money all by itself the safety features are also top notch side impact standard compliant the very elegant automatic seat belt tensioners and the dual airbags the series audis have been outstanding in government crash tests it gets my thumbs up for being so overwhelmingly capable rather than being all out exciting and intoxicating eliot
rec.autos	re houston auto insurance in article apr cheshire oxy edu colello cheshire oxy edu robert colello writes hello i am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school i will be living on the corner of s mian and university blvd i was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in a similar situation please e mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu my suggestion look at your current insurance card there will be a name accross the top telling you which insurance company you are insured by call information in houston and get the number of a branch office in the houston area call the insurance company your rates will vary depending on the amount of coverage you want do you want to carry comp and collision probably not on an what your driving record is you mentioned none of these things in your posting so how can anyone give you accurate information like i said pick up the phone and make a few calls it won t kill you jeff
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles i am talking about an oil change just a query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the m oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast i d get a bit up tight abot that thingy a point to note just because the first light came on at k doesn t mean all the others will come on every k too shaz
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine just a quick note on the nwe shape mr s in the uk when they first came out here there were models the base model had an auto box and engine from the camry well i recentyl found out that this model is no longer profitable for toyota and have since scraped it i ve also noticed that auto mr s have depreciated a lot more than the next model up surprise surprise huh oh you lucky americans have the turbo mr no such luck over here shaz
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting i used to drive a truck a few years back i once rode with an old codger that had been driving for about yrs the only time he would use the clutch was to get the truck moving he could shift that speed lightning quick up or down without the slightest rake of a gear he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration i ve ever seen having said all that i still don t know why anyone would want to shift a synchronized tranny without a clutch why do it
rec.autos	re a c service rip off in article apr chpc utexas edu ivab chpc utexas edu albert wu writes i went to a place called american car care centers to check my car for a c leak after checking i was told that there is a leak in the compressor seal at the end in addition to the labor for the check i was charged dollars for a pound of freon although they evacuated my a c afterwards because of the leak first is it fair for him to charge me for a pound of freon plus tax second what can i do about this if this is unfair albert wu for the information of those not lucky enough to live in the city of austin tx if an auto a c system is checked and found to have leaks it must be repaired at that time or evacuated this is an ordinance unique i think to the city of austin freon is subject to increasing taxes but is about x cost here recovered freon is not required to be purchased from the car it is withdrawn from as a matter of practice some shops here are charging a recycling fee that is less than the cost of the freon removed if it is reintroduced to the system just another quality service from an enviornmentally conscious city rick kirchhof austin texas experience is what you domain rick posms aus tx us get when you don t bang path cfi org posms rick get what you want
rec.autos	re warped brake discs on taurus l in article apr advtech uswest com joe advtech uswest com joe thielen writes xref sun x rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path sun x actcnews psinntp psinntp uunet wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee joe from joe advtech uswest com joe thielen subject re warped brake discs on taurus l message id apr advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder nntp posting host absoraka advtech uswest com organization u s west advanced technologies references apr bcrka bnr ca dmerrill apr ryn mro dec com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr ryn mro dec com balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio l balsamo save the wails writes from dmerrill bnr ca dana merrill subject re warped brake discs on taurus l anyone else had the same problem well i have an taurus gl apparently they still haven t fixed the problem with the rotors i ve got k miles on the clock and i m getting the rotors and pads replaces tonight at my expense of course tony i owned a ford mustang that had endless brake problems the bad thing was that it had all other kinds of problems too spent months in the shop in the first years i owned it bought new so i got rid of it and will more than likely not buy a ford product in the future the thing that really ticked me off was how ford treated me they were such jerks it was unbelievable joe in the past few years i have owned mustang gts and now own a t bird sc they all have had this problem there was a recall on the t bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about k miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the t bird i ll never buy a ford again bruce s winters bsw utrc utc com united technologies research center e hartford ct usa
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos here in australia most cars are manual privately owned anyway why not sure i think it has something to do with the fact that our car industry in the past was more closely aligned with europe than the us in the past now it s aligned with asia scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local n department of psychology w e university of western australia perth s e s nedlands perth w a v joy is a jaguar xj with a flat battery a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of a small remote town am on a cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date wed apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos lines anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there i have been having problems with a slightly different clutch problem on my prelude see rec autos tech for more detail my problem is a false engagement point below the actual one it also seems affected by weather it is most noticeable and annoying on damp or cold days my dealer says he can t reproduce the problem i think i ll just sell the car jeff goss
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted in rec autos grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as a sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah this is kind of interesting i always assumed that the sx was named because of the liter engine which it uses likewise for the sx which uses a liter engine isn t this true george
rec.autos	re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option in my opinion the limited tort option is the best thing casey has ever done basically limited tort means that you give up your right to sue for pain and suffering unless one of the following conditions is met your medical bills resulting from the accident exceed x where x is some number like i m not sure of the exact number the accident was caused by a drunk driver i mean the other driver was drunk you get a good lawyer and have a good case basically you can appeal to regain your right to sue but there s almost no chance of this ever happening you are only giving up your right to sue for pain and suffering you can still sue for medical costs actual damages etc by agreeing to limited tort you are essentially giving up your right to be an asshole who treats every accident as an entry into the litigation lottery in exchange you get a substantial reduction in your rates i save year unfortunately the insurance companies have managed to scare and confuse people so much that only about of pennsylvanians go for limited tort i guess that s ok if more people opted for it the insurance companies would be pushing harder for repeal
rec.autos	re what car is this the bricklin was a car manufactured by a company started by malcolm bricklin who i believe was canadian he was the first one to import subarus and later was responsible for importing yugos i believe anyway he had this idea that what would really sell would be a sports car but one incorporating a bunch of innovative safety features the bricklin was built to be that queerest of beasts the safety sports car if any of you remember the early s movement among car makers to design experimental safety cars you will recognize the general appearance of the bricklin big ol bumpers etc anyone recall other safety features the engine was an american v ford i think is right personally i kinda like the way they look and if i remember from the old magazine articles the performance was only half bad the choice of colors though tended towards the s lime green yech but highly visible i suppose the delorean on the other hand was a dog nice looking imo but no motor at all dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history i have standards if you don t like them i have others groucho
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex v ex in the u s does this too it s annoying now that i think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there s nothing they can do since the clutch is a self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n service control point routing services design conform moooo
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek i think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices no is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value the blue book value isn t set in stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff i paid under bb retail for my civic in and it was in perfect condition and had only k miles on it the guy was desparate to sell new kid on the way etc but it was a good price remeber both you and the buyer if he has any sort of brains at all are using the blue book so you should pick a fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto in article apr news eng convex com newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek a dealer will make money off you in three ways if you let him new car markup over his cost remember his hold back arranging financing through the dealership and screwing you on the trade keep the deal with the dealer simple by eliminating buying a car at dealer s cost is meaningless if he makes on the trade and or gets a kickback from the bank blue book you need to know if you re talking average wholesale or average retail is a good guide to value for a car if you are selling it yourself try to get average retail and chances are you ll have done ok be careful selling to acquaintances if you ever want them to become friends c b fowler gtri esml chris fowler gtri gatech edu
rec.autos	pontiac option codes wanted does anyone have a listing of pontiac s three letter option codes and what they mean thanks oliver oliver scholz dg nem graduate student of computer sciences at the university of erlangen germany you re killing me peg oh shut up al like i care
rec.autos	re thoughts on the vw corrado vr in article apr galileo cc rochester edu jg b uhura cc rochester edu outatime writes i was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr that s about it outatime it hauls butt handles nice but is junk i drove a brand new one for a day as a loaner the key was already rusting seems they stamp their keys out of pot metal all the controls seemed really junk clutch was heavy door locks power buttons sunroof controls etc seemed really cheap no way i would pay k for this baby no airbag either i also drove a svx for a day stickered at k but going out the door for k a much better buy imo although it is more of a sports touring coupe roomy etc the corrado is more of a small sports car the ergonomics and leather in the svx was twice as nice as the corrado s both had smooth strong engines
rec.autos	marten problems hi everybody well i don t know if this is a known problem to you in the big state but over here in europe it is in some places it just happened to me and i payed a lot to get my new honda civic repaired a marten choose my car to stay one night in and this damn little animal damaged almost everything which was plastic rubber i never thought that these little could do that much damage so to all you car owners out there is there a good known method of gettin rid of this animal except for waiting all night long beneath my car with a gun help in any form would be appreciated very very much e mail scheer faw uni ulm de thanxxxx y all
rec.autos	geico annoyance if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine from article apr sequent com by troy sequent com troy wecker earlier i commented on the valentine and jimf centerline com replied about the value of the units bogey counter i didn t really go into why i called this feature a gimmick so here is more explanation thanks jim for the good comments and opinion from what i understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as a side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source it sounds like your analysis is based on hypothesis and not actually using the valentine i d like to give some feedback based on real life experince i keep the valentine in advanced logic mode and it rarely lights up as a christmas tree the only time it does is when i am in the middle of a major shopping area and then it makes sense that is does since there are sources coming from many different directions i have found the valentine to be consistent in its reporting of bogeys regardless of any moving cars in the area i have found the directional indication to be very useful in one case there was two radar traps set up within one mile of each other as i passed the first radar trap the direction indication changed then the detector was set off again pointing in the forward direction with other radar detectors i would have assumed that this was due to a reflection but with the valentine i knew there was a high probability that there was another trap and there was on other occasions the directional helped discern a false alarm from a true alarm for example as i pass a source the direction indicator changes the directional also allows me to focus my attention as to where the signal might be coming from instead of having to look all over the place when a car is approaching me from the rear with a detector that leaks i can tell that the signal is coming from the rear and as the car passes me i can verify the source with other detectors i would have been unable to do this and would have had to assume that there was a radar trap when there was none i ve had the valentine for several months now and find its added features to be useful and not gimmicks barry barry frishberg blf apollo ch hp com chelmsford uk expert center tn chelmsford ma
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at germans are just more organised you can t blitz all of europe in a matter of what months unless you re pretty organised if we tried that there d just be a whole bunch of tanks backed up at the border waiting for some jerk in the right lane trying to get over to make a left turn this of course caused germany to invade belgium one of the important lessons of history is that anything including late afternoon thundershowers will cause germany to invade belgium dave barry happy motoring jmr sl blue green he s the most inventive asshole i ve ever met he really puts a lot of energy into it
rec.autos	help with mitsubishi galant gs transmission hi i need your help with a problem i have with a mitsubishi galant gs transmission the car has a speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from nd to rd unless i do it slowly and carefully it makes a popping or hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached by an say this is normal for the car is it and about a year ago at kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had no effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch is fully depressed if the clutch is released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck i could not make the car move it acted as if it were in neutral except for dying when clutch is released i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth less than an inch while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened i took it to the dealer they checked the clutch it was o k they checked the transmission it was o k i had the exact problem a couple of months ago and again last week the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi the says they have never heard of the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car in all three occurances the car was parked head first in a garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck i know there is smething wrong with the transmission shifting from nd to rd and getting stuck at random but i can t get the dealer to fix it i need your help with the mechanical problems and with how to handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry to bore you with the long post thanks rabih
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set turbo boost is necessary if a turboed car fuel reserve warning coolant level warning it would also be nice to have a gauge that would cycle across the different sensors in the fi system such as o sensor altitude air flow i d love to get tranny and diff brake temp would be great and a big ass tach sean from the labs of balderrama mitchell reifschneider and wahlstedt inc sean reifschneider ruler of the realm jafo accum com
rec.autos	drag coefficients could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to thanx
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile talking about car alarms there are certain cars in this country that are only insurable if they are fitted with a vecta alarm we re talking coswoths and porsches and stuff just before they the insurance companies decided to make this move they insisted that the car be fitted with a scorpion alarm now they ve changed to the vecta so everyone who s spent on fitting the scorpion alarm have founbd themselves having to upgrade to the vecta system sad huh shaz
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s i dont know about saabs but whenever there is a long temr tset in a magazine they always say that tehy re are little annoying niggles which keep on occuring every so often i wouldn t expect that from such a quality car why doesn t anything like this ever happen on bmws maybe coz they re quality cars shrugs repentently shaz
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti yeah and bmw e has litres btw can someone out there please tell me how to put someone else s file on and then reply to that so the other person s file and my own reply go to the newgroups together ps just mail me personally thanx in advance
rec.autos	re warning please read enough already let s take this discussion to some other newsgroup that s more appropriate most of us are tired of it and would like to get back to old cars imho chuck lampman chuck lampman gstrf gatech edu
rec.autos	re autos dealer in article apr porthos cc bellcore com tvl prefect cc bellcore com lam thanh writes i got a price quote of for a camry v w abs from a toyota dealer in eatontown i came back to that dealer in two weeks to sign a purchase agreement then i was told that the salesperson made an error in pricing i walked out of that dealer i wonder if this kind of practice is common with toyota dealers is the price quote written on the salesperson s business card binding i would appricate any comments i had a similar experience we had a written quote which had been mailed to us from the salesman at one of these no haggle toyota dealers for a camry xle w abs leather etc the price seemed fair but when we went in to take them up on their offer they discovered that certain extra cost items hadn t been included in their original written quote it would have totaled an extra and in spite of the fact that we had a written quote they said there was nothing they could do bottom line quotes from salemen are worthless and it appears to me that the toyota dealers think they ve got such a superior auto that they don t have to deal we walked went out and bought a new lh car eagle vision tsi and i don t regret it one bit thad mcculloch mcculloc mail lds loral com
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone i love animals they taste delicious the land cruiser has a l engine which has hp and torgue when i drove it here in california power is more than enough the high price is the only reason i did not buy it
rec.autos	re dirty diesels hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper just to clear things up as to why i posted the question that way i was debating with a co worker about diesels i claimed they were cleaner burning than gas engines he said the extra junk put out by them was offset by the savings in greenhouse gasses i made all the same claims you did but one question of his was what about the carbon i said it was harmless but he wanted to know how to get rid of it i suggested scrubbers i figured it would be no harder or more expensive to install than cats does there exist any designs for a scrubber i d like to know just to answer his final question i convinced him that diesels are cleaner otherwise btw i named my subject dirty diesels because i knew it would get a reaction out of people who knew they were cleaner than gas engines and that they d read it vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	re v v v v vx remove legend from the v list it s a steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	diatribe on us sold opels was re opel owners gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it that would be the opel gt sold in this country from to it originally had a cc engine which was later replaced by the cc it was based on the old kadett drive train and suspension with leaf springs in the rear and a single transverse leaf spring in the front it looked good but was limited as a performer there has also been some discussion in this thread about the manta and other models in opel introduced a new line of models the series that were also known as model numbers etc these cars had the newer cc engine and were available as two and four door coupes a station wagon and a sport coupe known in europe as the manta at the same time there were two series cars which sold very few numbers that also had the engine but the kadett suspension the sport coupe model was also available as the rallye r with a blacked out hood tach and fog lights but was mechanically the same except for a numerically higher rear end ratio in the sport coupe was also named the manta in the us was the last year for the gt in any country both because of the us bumper height regulations and the fact that fiat exercised an option on the factory that opel was leasing to build the gts the series continued in with minor body differences in the manta sedan also called the ascona and the wagon were available with bosch electronic fuel injection these cars also had larger brakes and wider wheels these cars were starting to compete with the buick century low price leader of the time and were the last opels imported into the us from to cars that sported buick opel badges were still sold by the buick dealers but were rebadged isuzu i marks the idea was to call them opels instead of changing the dealers neon signs various models of the series cars dominated the showroom stock racing of the s in their class and were known as serious competition parts are still available from a number of sources i still have a manta and two sedans and all the trick parts i could collect in years john kennedy uunet opel johnk second source inc johnk secondsource com annapolis md
rec.autos	honda headrest stuck advice please an aquaintence has a accord the driver s side headrest was accidentally put in backwards and has jammed according to the dealer the only way to get it out is to spend several hours disassembling the seat this is the second time i have heard of this happening and i wonder whether there s an easier way to get the headrest back out has anyone else ever dealt with this problem your advice would be appreciated please email and i will summarize if there is interest dan dyndata com dan everhart uunet camco fluke dyndata dan fax th st sw dynamic data electronics edmonds wa usa rhe rone rike rhe rone rike rhorane astro sings cocaine
rec.autos	re mbenz series vw passat jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu jeremy corry writes new series mercedes benz wagon particularly i would like to hear about power manual t only any comparisons between the saab line and the mercedes would be helpful if a manual transmission is a must have then the m b te is not in the running you cannot get a manual transmission in that car in north america it seems that buyers here or maybe more accurately the distributors are not interested in manual trannies the line comes with a hp engine all earlier years are hp i have an e with a mere hp and auto tranny and i find that it has sufficient power for any normal driving situation more is always nice but i can t complain i test drove a saab cse last fall here are my impressions awesome power especially over rpm when the turbo really comes on if you get on the power really hard in a tight corner the front wheel drive causes it to understeer heavily and then viciously hook into the corner not a desirable handling trait but common in powerful front drive cars the cse is hp mercedes is rear drive so it does not have this problem huge interior and cargo space the most rubbery shifter i have ever encountered i drove a spd it was absolutely numb you might be able to get used to it i don t know i also didn t like its location which was too far down and too far right from the shifter s position i got the impression that saab really designed the car for an automatic it was rather noisy engine buzz rattles and creaks mercedes does not exhibit these characteristics you should also check out the new bmw touring this is a wagon version of the i it fits into the class with the te and saabs michael chmilar chmilar apple com
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto mail bounced so in article apr news eng convex com you write i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase traditional wisdom says you are almost certainly better off selling it yourself if you don t mind that extra hassle having a trade in on a purchase just makes getting the best price from a dealership more confusing i know that the blue book value for the car is i assume this is retail bluebook there are two bluebook prices one for retail and one for wholesale you really want the retail price if you can get it the blue books also have adjustments you can make for low mileage and extras on your particular car you should look all this stuff up yourself also keep in mind that the blue book prices are averages over the country that may not apply in your area for example blue book prices are low for california a better way of finding out how much your car might be worth is to call around and see what it s selling for if any used lots have one or looking in local papers for similar cars and checking out the prices it might be more time efficient to take a small loss rather than hold out for months for the best price an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i don t know what you mean by an acquaintance but i would make darn sure that i was paid that is cashier s check in full before delivery there s a real temptation when selling to a pseudo friend to be more accomodating than you should make sure you get the money and if they hedge about paying in full at the start with a cashier s check or cash then i would go elsewhere rememeber that you can probably sell your car to a used car lot or wholesaler and get wholesale bluebook that s probably a safer approach than selling to a private party alan mountain dew and doughnuts ames elroy alan because breakfast is the most important meal alan elroy jpl nasa gov of the day
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm stay away from geico a recent car driver issue has an article about geico giving free laser guns to police departments to increase they re speed limit enforcement the article also said that if you get a speeding ticket your premium will increase dramatically based on how much over the limit you were if i remember correctly at more than over you ll get something like a increase if you have a radar detector you will be denied coverage or dropped immediately one accident claim and you will be dropped after many years with geico my father who had tickets and had made claims had an accident and filed an claim he was dropped immediately since then he has been with state farm for years with no complaints i have been with state farm for about years no complaints travis
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article c ydwp g ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe writes curiously and consider these are test vehicles i found the mercury higher in build quality than the nissan this is very curious being that they are both built by mercury in the very same factory steve stephen yavorski internet yavo ivy paramax com nexrad integration phone paramax systems corporation ivyland pennsylvania
rec.autos	re drag coefficients in article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to i don t remember the formula s off hand as it has been awhile since i took aerodynamics and haven t used the stuff since the cd is related to the drag force which is what effects top speed and fuel consumption when the drag force on the car or aircraft is greater than what the vehicle s engine can overcome it has reached its top speed autos of course also have to overcome rolling resistance since drag opposes the vehicle s motion the engine must make up for that by burning more fuel anyway since the geometery of an auto is rather complex the drag pressure coeffiecent etc is either found experimentaly or using a numerical method anyway for flow around a cylinder the drag coeff is cd d q r where d is the drag force q the flow velocity and r is the radius of the clyinder to get a rough very rough estimate you can set r at the car s width q at the car s speed and knowing the cd find the drag force that the car would need to overcome bp
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto it s a toll for insurance companies and auto dealers to rip you off in case of accident or trade in charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho gk i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive i gk currently have goodyear gt s that cost the previous owner gk for four try eagle gas wear better cost less lose little handling and are quieter i m going to switch to s in my next set with new rims fitti twists if i can afford em by the time my gas wear out gk is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also i began gk to wonder how strong that brake really is today i backed out of gk parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed gk the glowing brake light oops mine is strong enough to not let the car move when it s in even if you re giving it enough gas to normally move it in st you might need a brake adjustment gk the driver s power window creaks when closed all the way the same gk thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the gk other windows work smoothly watch it closely the glass actually flexes from the torque in the motor it seems stronger in the drivers window then the others gk i m liking the interior amenities more and more each day the gk cupholders are great i ve found the location under the armrest in between the seats to be a pain but like having them they moved it into the dash pop out in the model year much better gk i really feel like i don t deserve this car i really can t gk believe that i could afford it i got this car ten years gk ahead of schedule i did the same thing got a black with k miles on it for k in july gk i ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as gk well as other posts with useful information on these cars i ll be gk posting this in the form of a faq soon grabbed it and archived it thanks gk if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list please speak up gk i don t know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one but gk maybe someone out there does i ll be starting one this summer one way or the other current software i use dosen t support mailing lists but is on the rsn list if not i m going to upgrade to another package that does have it that is if nobody else beats me to it will make an announcement here when it goes up the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	re re toyota land cruiser worth it in article iftccu ca boeing com hovnania iftccu ca boeing com paul hovnanian wrote based on my experience with a fj the hard top jeep style model i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind i would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors two major differences in the running gear that i m aware of need study my has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle is theoretically stronger and the new cruisers do not have independent suspension in the front they still run a straight axle but with coils the runner is the one with independent front the cruisers have incredible wheel travel with this system more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension is no doubt a compromise made to satisfy the typical user who will never need a real utility vehicle the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models i m not sure but i think tioyota went to a full time wd or all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have a lock up type both have their advantages and disadvantages the up cruiser does have full time wd but the center diff locks in low range my brother has a and is an incredibly sturdy vehicle which has done all the trails in moab without a tow the and later is even better with the bigger engine and locking diffs jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it in article r sbbinn e hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke wrote my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my the and cruisers run the l straight which only has about hp and lb ft of torque plenty off highway marginal on the highway the has a much improved l straight with hp and ft lb torque they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular if you take them on rough trails you ll see the difference the cruiser is an order of magnitude better in off highway ability jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	any opinions on early s toronado having had my car die on me engine fire insurance agent said it was probably totaled i am in the market for a another vehicle i saw a toronado that was within my expected price range and was wondering if anybody could relate their experiences with me namely does it have accceptable power it has a in it does its being front wheel drive make maintenance difficult one power window and the power seat do not work are these expensive items to replace if i do the work myself how long do the engines usually last m now any other experiences good or bad and opinions thanks ryan kinter kinter scf usc edu
rec.autos	re too fast dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes if the mustang and or sho platform were designed for mph it would come with better seatbelts more supportive seats a stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground in other words it d be a rx yeah and then we d pay go with a lx mustang most bang for your buck
rec.autos	grand national does anyone have one of these that would care to share some information on i concerned about the turbo how reliable is it how s the gas milage please responde to me not here thank you roger
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article apr bnr ca dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer writes in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex v ex in the u s does this too it s annoying now that i think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there s nothing they can do since the clutch is a self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right one of the reasons i sold my civic vx was the chattery grabby clutch although i din t notice it being any worse in humid weather perhaps because its always humid around here i was told by honda that it has to do with changing from asbestos to non asbestos linings which began around someone could make some good money selling the old fashion variety if it s legal to manufacture them these days my feeling is that since many other car makers do not have this problem that it s a poor design or engineering problem on the part of honda three things to look out for on all honda products clutch chatter bad brake rotors and rusty exhaust systems
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr is morgan com sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff writes from sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff subject re warning please read keywords brick truck danger date thu apr gmt in article apr voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and a quick sure trial i am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make a dent this will not work hitler youth newark teenager car stealing epidemics student riots and other similar cases show that death is not a behaviour shaping or even intimidating factor for teenagers teens defy death i is a strong deterent to the teens that are executed they won t do that again this policy cuts way down on repeat offenders please do not flame me i don t agree with capital punishment for teen s as far as rock throwing is concerned well it is very sad and tragic most of these incidents stem from the fact that these kids are dumb even smarter ones completely lack deductive thinking and can t foresee the consequences of their actions beyond immediate ones unfortunately dumbness and cars whizzing at mph make an explosive mix they are also unsupervised with proper supervision they would not be throwing rocks if parents cannot provide the minimal supervision needed to stop this activity they should not be allowed to have children notice the smiley however i hardly believe there was intent to kill in most of these cases rather desire to see the shattering glass i admit i was mercilessly attacking moscow busses with a slingshot in my tender years akin to a child breaking toys i witnessed several even more endeavouring projects like stacking up bricks on a railroad track technical details of such a venture completely dominate the possibility of a human tradegy heck when you are you have a vague concept of human tradegy in a mind of a youngster i m quite sure that technical challenge of matching and predicting speed of a thrown stone so that it gets the car smack in the windshield completely occupies the teen not leaving much room for other considerations sergei ron stafford texas instruments incorporated p o box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas
rec.autos	re v v v v vx s in a previous article smith ctron com lawrence c smith says in article c v md kyp usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes v must be one somewhere believe bugatti s coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as i heard at any rate the point is i m pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited this is no bugatti it s labeled a bugatti but has nothing to do with the bugatti s of yore from what i understand just some ppl wanting to build a silly supercar and use that name to sell it drew may be thinking of the cizeta morodor v t but that hasn t reached production at least not yet as for the bugatti well i have to agree with matt it ain t the top dog it ain t sexy and svelt looking and it ain t a real bugatti in fact it looks like it s in tight competition with the consulier for the most butt ugly car of the decade award it isn t that bad at least the bugatti eb has compound curves compared to the slab sides on the consulier and the bugatti has a quad turbo v thing of it as three cylinder turbo engines tied together also ettore bugatti s nephew is on the board of directors and had a hand in the development so that s about as much bugatti as you are likely to get in today s world much like enzo ferrari s illegitamate son being allowed to take over part of ferrari as well i don t know of any cars with v but there are a number of motorcycles with them but i couldn t tell you which ones all motorcycles look alike to me d that s funny i have motorcylclist friends who say the same about cages most gp cc motorcycles are v s and the vf line of hondas were all v s from the vf f through the vf f including the rc race bike and the present vfr f it should be noted that lancia built a v in recent history in the fulvia hf a very pretty italian coupe al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels nataraja rtsg mot com writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses a kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although i don t know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it s a shame gm had to soil the diesel s reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in icjps asuacad bitnet icjps asuacad bitnet writes my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v and at are remarkably smooth agreed i own a mercury villager and i m very impressed with the v and the at in the past i ve been biased towards manual standard transmissions i owned an aerostar with a speed it was awesome but settled with the at in the villager and have been pleasantly surprised with it s performance btw consumers report in their report on the villager alluded to some funny noises from the at i ve been listening for them but haven t noticed anything unusual chris christopher j born born ralvms vnet ibm com
rec.autos	re drag coefficientsvx s in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to it s pretty complex and cd isn t the whole story either cd for cars is usually calculated based on the frontal area of the car so a large car with a good cd could get the same drag force as a smaller car with a poorer cd to calculate drag use this formula d rho v cd s where d is the drag force lbs rho is the local air density slugs ft v is the velocity ft s and s is the frontal area ft note that the pieces called rho v are sometimes called qbar or dynamic pressure a fancy aero term for air pressure or force note that power is p f v where p is power lbf ft s f is the force drag in this case lbf and v is velocity ft s note that if you put the whole equation into one by substituting d for force you get a velocity cubed term that s why huge increases in power result in little increases in speed ditto for decreases in cd so if you have a mph car and reduce cd from to your new top speed is sound of trumpet fanfare mph sorry to dissappoint al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	ree mgb questions the whire wheels aren t chromed they were to be painted silver grey the accelerating from a stop shouldn t be doggy because of the light weight of the car don t pull the topto make it reach the snaps i pulled a couple out of the top doing that replacing the spanps usually doesn t work let it sit in th e sun open on the car for a couple hours the try gently i continually blew up the connecting rod bearing be sure your not buring too much oil don t expect too much of a smooth ride the lever arm shocks hold the road and your bladder the are ultra expensive supposedly the can be rebuilt j c whitney sell a shock replacement kit the uses standard shocks i had to rebuid boththe brake and clutch master cylinder in addition to the clutch slave this work made a world of changes be sure the carb is the original type replacement my had dual stomberg oil dampenned side draft carbs ask if the clutch has ever been replaced to replace the engine and tranny have to be pulled as a unit if you need more i had mine all through hiogh school lots of maintenance to use every day
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles i am talking about an oil change just a query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the m oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast i d get a bit up tight abot that thingy a point to note just because the first light came on at k doesn t mean all the others will come on every k too shaz shaz hmm but the service indicators that i have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so i expect to have a tool or a procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off i wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it s the first european car i have and changing oil at miles is a surprise to me and it s a big plus but i wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time i thought it s the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of a bmw derek
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here ah yes the neutral slam i know that gm tested the old th s and th s by shifting from reverse to forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine at high rpms the units hold up incredibly well this is also the recommended technique to rock a stuck vehicle out of the mud i think the hydraulics are up to the task but the mechanicals of the driveline may object by breaking something ericy i agree about the durability of the old th trannies from gm while i never intentionally slamed my firebird ci conv into gear i would leave the trannie in low read st grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when i reached about mph the turbo auto would shift to s read super or nd and leave about to foot of double stripped rubber on the ground most everyone i knew at the time was quite impressed with peeling out at mph the trannie held up just fine motor mounts would last about a year until i tied the motor down with large chains oh yea fyi pontiac ci bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don t remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top ac cruise etc oh yea i also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn us regulations oh how i miss that car under sec and about to mpg well i don t miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs at the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months i really wonder what kind of rev s i was turning no tach re improvements in automatic transmissions anyone seen one of these lately i d buy it back in a sec open top brent
rec.autos	re extensions in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes i was wondering what the country extension are sometimes i just don t have a clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus nz new zealand au australia jp japan kr korea woobin lee image computing system lab woobin u washington edu
rec.autos	re new anti carjacking campaign in article apr freenet carleton ca ae freenet carleton ca nigel allen writes here is a press release from the national crime prevention council the campaign urges drivers to remember to lock up roll up and look around lock car doors immediately after entering or leaving the car roll up windows as far as possible and look around and be alert to avoid situations that are suspicious that reminds me of a blurb in the police blotter in my school paper along the lines of police were called because so and so reported there were suspicious people hangning around the business building turns out it was two black men leaving the building after doing homework late one night
rec.autos	re v v v v vx the devil reincarnate ssave ole cdac com wrote i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	re replacement custom seats where to get in article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are a bunch of places to get them a corvette but i don t want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell i m going to store those and find a set to drive in i have all the vette catalogs but i m looking for a more generic type seat i can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are a concern i ve looked through some local boneyards without success i would just like to find a pair of cheapo s to use this summer tom
rec.autos	re the mustang you know i m a ford fan i must say so i m looking forward to the next mustang i have faith that it will be a fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that s mho true thats your opinion they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there i wouldn t press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway true again i wouldn t take a free mustang honest the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for a car that will out perform all but a few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don t lie there are no comparable cars in it s class certinaly not for its price you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual i also agree this subject is one that will never be setteled except maybe at the track unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of a modified lt folks in a few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late s thats scary you ford vs chevy people must live in the planet of detroit or droid like they say in the airforce with enough horsepower anything will fly i can put a valve v with twin garret s on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track or on the street have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s vlasis theodore software engineer just say no to signatures
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary in article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu wrote hi i ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary i have an toyota corolla sr with and i am in the process of doing preventative maintenance and i was wondering if this was something that i should add to my list of things to do any information would be greatly appreciated i really love this car and would like to keep it for as long as possible thanx lisa sign me only a manual will do amplifying on jeff goss s answer the absorbed water will rust your brakelines and master cylinder and calipers and you could suddenly lose all your brake fluid
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes nataraja rtsg mot com writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses a kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although i don t know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it s a shame gm had to soil the diesel s reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik i sure don t know what and how they measure in regards to diesel motors in cars trucks and busses but i think they are probably measuring the wrong pollutants or at the wrong time or both i certainly find it offensive to drive behind a diesel bus or diesel truck and some diesel cars they stink and it s always roll up the windows panic time when one comes by or ducks in front of me when i am driving with my family i don t think the combustion mixture is kept under very good control in diesel engines and that s why they stink so the invisible unsmellable pollutants are reduced in diesels yeah well so what someone forgot about the visible stinky kind and as far as i am concerned those kind are just as bad i am all for de stinking the diesel vehicles it ll keep the traffic signs cleaner too fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re mbenz series vw passat go with the mercedes if you can afford it i think the wagon starts around k although it could be k there is no comparison with any of the other cars listed horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma
rec.autos	re viper car alarms in article c fr cdo cs uiuc edu u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts i recently had more car mangled broken into and decided to get an alarm installed it s a viper and has a shock sensor sensors for each door ignition cutoff and automatic door locks i have this same alarm installed in my syclone it works great the shock sensor is very sensitive but much more practical than the motion sensor i have on my other car it doesn t trigger if the car is rocked gently by the wind but any kind of shock sets it off even kicking the tire sets it off it works great what worries me is the hood and hatch if someone could pry them up gently enough then they could bypass the alarm the shock sensor is adjustable and there are two cycles on it you can adjust it to be sensitive enough that there is no way you could open the hood without setting off the alarm although i know that you cannot pop the hood on the syclone without setting off my alarm now and yet i have had zero none false alarms with this system the alarm tells you when you disarm it whether it has been activated in your absence i have been able to trace every alarm to it s cause and it was not a false alarm i m also wondering how easy it would be for a thief to crawl underneath the car and cut the battery cable to disable the alarm i guess it would be possible depending on the vehicle my syclone is so tight in the engine compartment that it would be tough to do this there are supplemental power supplies you can put on with this viper alarm but i don t have one i really think that if someone wants my car that bad the alarm won t keep them from it even with a supplemental power supply viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles i have a convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes a better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter i don t see the real benefit to these unless you have a convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by i saw one installed on a lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind i m interested in the opinions of you netters about these problems and about the viper in general i am real happy with my viper one other feature i really like is you can tune it to your preferences you can have it arm passively or not you can disable the chirp for arming disarming you can have it lock unlock the doors when the alarm is armed disarmed i like these features i hate the chirp when the alarm arms disarms so mine flashes the lights only i like the door lock feature although i have to be careful to take my keys with me because it doesn t know if you have left your keys in the car when it passively arms and locks the doors but if you are meticulous about taking your keys with you it takes care of the rest the car is an ford probe gt that used to be in great shape ron garnett i looked seriously at the alpine system too it is a real nice system but more money and it has a motion sensor standard instead of the shock sensor the shock sensor is better and the viper shock sensor is better cycle than the optional alpine one imho i think the viper gives you a lot of good value for the money but it isn t absolutely tamperproof no system is except maybe the one that james bond had on his lotus in for your eyes only anyone know where we can get one of those installed maybe that was what they had in the van in the world trade center huh merrill
rec.autos	re autofom fomblin a i tried the autofom stuff on my saturn sc and was so disappointed with it that i returned it for a refund i polished the car for hours and couldn t remove the swirl marks thin film that was all over the finish it also attracted more dirt than without the stuff
rec.autos	car alarms which one before we get into another discussion on the relative merits of a car alarm let s go on the assumption that one is desired the question then remains which one i ve owned a hornet and was satisfied but not enough to get another for my new car the alpine has been highly recommended but what about clifford and vse s derringer any others i want all of the standard stuff door lock interface starter kill light flash led valet mode passive active shock motion sensor etc thanks for the advice
rec.autos	funny car taxes was re market access in article r acf nh agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car we used to have a tax in greece named after the queen s mother the queen left monarchy was abolished but the tax stuck similar single purpose taxes have stuck i e to help the victims of the earthquake of xx build the metro obmoralconclusion next time someone proposes a car tax or gasoline tax promising it s temporary it ain t spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	changing m t oil on m maxima hello again another question i just got my hands on quarts of readline gear oil at a quart now i need to know how to throw it into my car i own an nissan maxima se any ideas can i mix the oil in there with this stuff or should i drain first then only use this stuff if you know where if there is one the drain plug on the manual transmission on the maxima is i would really appreciate any comments also have any of you maxima owners thied this stuff in your cars thanks in adv sammy
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v s i don t know of any i s and flat s are abundant v legend mr mr a whole h tload minivans pickups just about any car above the subcompact compact range and below the full size range with a few exceptions i s are much more rare now the only one i personally know of that s still in production is the venerable ford cid in the f series pickups i think that jeep s big s are also straight sixes but i m not a big jeep person v don t know of any where are you to not know of v s there are mustangs cadillacs lincolns camaros corvettes thunderbirds all real full size pickups crown vics chevy moby h h h hcaprice and even a few japanese and european vee hickles with v s v dodge viper dodge promises a truck with a v v jaguar xjs don t ferarri and lamborghini both use v s extensively james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any because there is no such thing a friend had a ford taunus era early s that did have a v in it i lost a bet on it i find it hard to believe there are no recent cars with a v in them any recent ones spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering primarily milage gas is much more expensive so people are very concerned about it taking a few more liters per kilometer this along with narrow old cities also results in smaller cars with smaller engines these engines usually don t have the torque to mesh well with an automatic so having engines that don t work well with autos and a great concern for milage the usual euro car has a manual note that not many big benzes come with manuals if you ve got the money for the car you ve got the money for the gas and the engine to drive through the slushbox as automatics become more efficient the bigotry is probably reduced still everyone knows how to drive a manual and cars are cheaper with one and it saves a little expensive fuel so there aren t compelling reasons to go automatic db
rec.autos	re too fast this whole discussion is just a religous war i d rather have a rx than the mustang l for times the price that s how you explain porsches selling some folks would rather have the stang shrug sean test signature
rec.autos	re v v v v vx v anyone anyone heard of a cizata v t its mainly sold in the middle east where they dont have as strict a legislation as in the usa and ec
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted thanx craig in addition to craigs coments and to clear up any further confusion the sx of usa was reffered to as a silvia turbo in the uk performance figures of uk sx are s vmax mph shaz oh one more q you know that new prelude vtec well is there an auto version in the usa i ve heard of them in japan but not uk also do you guys get auto miatas
rec.autos	emergency brake on opel was nissan maxima since we re on the subject of brakes does anyone know why a wd vauxhall opel disengages drive to the rear wheels when the brakes are applied vauxhall boast about how the car is more stable in fwd mode during braking than in wd mode how is this so shaz
rec.autos	re dirty diesels yeah diesels are cleaner than petrol powered cars they even have catalysts fitted to disels now oh and citroen have even launched the first sports diesel car in the world which is probably true if you assume if its for production purposes merc benz had a prototype which runs on diesel back in around it did and read this mph shaz
rec.autos	re thoughts on the vw corrado vr in the ec the corrado vr is rated as best handling car this side of a as it goes i just read an article in autocar motor comparing the vr to a ford probe later to be launched in the uk the vr is more powerful even more so coz its instead of in the ec and more fun to drive etc etc but the probe has a slightly smoother engine thanx mazda mx they sum it up as both cars are fast the vr is a bit more exhilirating to drive but only if you re prepared to work harder shaz
rec.autos	re extensions in article r omsinnnbk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes in article gfpftjw iv q vwyv andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook dh q andrew cmu edu writes these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france dk denmark no norway com and edu are both united states one refers to commercial institutions the other to mental i mean educational institutions gov is also pretty much us it refers to government institutions internet was built on the aarp backbone a us defense contractor network that used the extension i think you mean arpa aarp is the american association of retired persons and i seriously doubt that they d want young whippersnappers building anything on their backbones what with de calcification and all to identify the type of organisation internet extended the convention for other countries but the us retained the old conventions the general convention is that if it doesn t have a country tag on it it s a us site that includes com commercial edu educational mil us military sites gov us gov t non military sites eg nasa sites org anyone who is none of the above there are sites with such tags that are non us sites but they will have the country extension eg xxxx edu au is an extension i saw today us sites can also use the us extension but as mr smith pointed out the internet was built on the arpanet backbone and they default to us sites if there s no country code i would suggest that anyone who didn t know this or wants to know more about it on a non system administrative level check out the book the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol or is it catalog and user s guide i can never remember and my copy is my desk at home it s a very good not necessarily technical guide to the internet and the various utilities that lurk on it including usenet i don t think it s part of the nutshell series but it is published by o reilly and associates this should go to one of the news newsgroups but damned if i can figure out which one james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	radar detectors in the uk did youy guys know that it is legal to own a radar detector but is illegal to use it isn t that a bit like owning a gun but not being allowed to use it my mate just switches his off whenever the cops are around
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s in article r js k biz ecs umass edu suri ganzer ecs umass edu writes hi would someone like to post a comparative analysis quantitative measures hp etc and more so the qualitative feel of how they compare for the driving feel handling noise responsiveness etc for the saab s and the bmw series any comments on just comparing the with the re handling i take it that the saabs and bmw s are comparable for reliability and all that would be nice if flaming wars could be avoided and folks just post their experiences i had a saab turbo and now have a bmw is there is no comparison for handling reliability or overall quality of engineering the bmw wins hands down after years i was sick and tired of the all the little problems and entropic decay of the saab the year old bmw is still as sweet as it was new but i see you are posting from western ma bmw s suck in the snow i have aggressive snows plus a hundred pounds of sand in the back and i still try to avoid driving in the snow i happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without a worry i would say this is the single design flaw in the bmw jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn t you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor i know i would and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron
rec.autos	re bmw i in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn hahaa hahahah hahahahahahaaaaa i cant stop its killing me hahah i was dead serious when i posted it i actually have an attempt of explanation to this phenomenon but i ll keep you guessing i still want responces of which i got exactly mike s
rec.autos	re v v v v vx cbh windsurf scd ucar edu cris hannu writes in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any yeah right the bmw xx are v s or v s can t remember which the auto show was a while ago the is a v l from the il is there a or v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com cris hannu windsurfing the high country cray research inc ncar boulder co cbh windsurf scd ucar edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr stdvax oaddab stdvax dirk broer writes still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at actually that d be mph and mph the legal speed limit for trucks in two lanes each direction it s a hell of a rush when those trucks fly by or was that me flying by them who cares the rush is really something else and so is the draft ron
rec.autos	re the mustang vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn or the price tag of the rx vs a mustang part of the definition of a mustang is that it should be affordable by the masses of course ford knows youre argument they own a big piece of mazda take a good look at a mach iii now an rx hhhmmmmm and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s that is a tragedy but i don t think new camaros or the new mustangs will steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	re mr seats for sale in article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes from article apr ultb isc rit edu by adn ritvax isc rit edu i have a pair of sport seats from mr for sale blue black as the owner of an mr and having several friends who own them i am very uncomfortable when i see an ad like this i have known several people who have lost the seats from their mr in the middle of the night to support the celica retro fit trade and the insurance companies have been very miserable to deal with in all cases when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see a statement saying where they came from that would at least help to soothe the reflexive fear that someone is making a buck at someone elses expense i ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen lee btw they are incredible seats so if it s legit go for it i am the original owner of the seats and the original poster i take very serious offence in your statement i see a lot of computers advertized on the net and my friend just had been releived of his machine all the net computer ads are for stolen computers where did you learn logic as for the seats they were replaced by a much harder literally celica gts seats due to my back problem that is why i had to reuse the mr brackets and that s why the mr seats i sell are attached to celica brackets please in the future think before you make allegations like the above it hurts mike s
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article r f qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes a gt gotta be in my top favorite cars of all time list where is this place was the car for sale come on i need details or not anyways i just had to say wow at the sighting of such a fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road the place was in what used to be a small town now a suburb north of atlanta i don t know if the car was for sale or not you wouldn t put a price on the window on this type of car anyway damn straight as far as i ve heard unless the owner is very hard up the gt s are not for sale at any price that mere mortals could afford and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn t road legal i think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below this car was right hand drive weren t they all like that how much does a gt go for how many were made i wish i could find my shelby american guide it included the gt registry as of or so there were precious few of them made fifty is the number that springs to mind they made just enough to qualify for the manufacturer s cup or whichever series it was that shelby broke ferarri s year winning streak in in and they are all accounted for the last price i saw estimated on a gt was a little bit over yes that s right one million us dollars it was second only to some worthless piece of ferrari that it would blow the doors off of i don t recall off hand what the drive configuration was although i m certain some must have been lhd as they had to be sold to qualify for racing the drivertrain was the ford hi riser i think and or side oiler coupled to various speed transmissions they also used speed manuals they had lots of problems with the original trannys breaking under the load of the layout was rear engine rear drive with the bundle of snakes exhaust headers i can remeber other bits and pieces of info but i can t remember whether they applied to the gt or the shelby cobra daytona coupe i ll try and find that reference james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	mg t series for sale mg tf with frame up restoration in early s a local show winner driven very little and stored inside since then mostly collected dirt dust needs attention to brake cylinders like all mg t s but otherwise ready to run chrome paint not fancy but it is mechanically excellent the engine a cc was completely overhauled by a machine shop it is priced at mg td good shape but hasn t been run since s needs engine work but no rust and everything is with it including a top side curtains and carpet that were new and haven t seen the outdoors since the s mg td basket case i d call it a parts car but it s too good for that everything seems to be there except the tach would make a good project car or parts car if you insist no apparent rust but the upholstery is a disaster stored inside since the s the top was new but now soso this one has wire wheels looking for all three cars will be sold as they stand with no hassles or haggles time has passed by and it is time to part company prices are negotiable reply via matthews oswego oswego edu or u s mail to p o box oswego ny harry matthews k aou wrvo wrvn wrvj internet matthews oswego oswego edu learning resources satellite tv bitnet matthews snyoswva s u n y college cable tv voice mail oswego ny alloy ntnx pc mho s are mine not s u n y oswego s
rec.autos	re horizontally opposed boxer engines was v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes none of the configurations are perfectly inherently balanced which is what i was talking about balance shafts and mass on either ends of the cranks can eliminate these forces moments which is something i also pointed out and didn t you also say that it was easier to add masses than to add balance shafts the sad truth is that some makers don t bother to put balance shafts on their big shaky s the three cranks i refer to i i i even firing deg k j fp mp fs r l zcos t ms j j flat even firing deg k i fp mp fs a crank spacing ms a r l zcos t j j flat even firing deg k i fp mp azcost fs ms how about if this is ridiculous kindly explain why it s been more than years since i studied this stuff flat s and i s both have the potential to be nearly vibration free because subaru does that has nothing to do with i s in general or porsche i think subaru somehow connecting themselves to porsche is an absurdity and i m not a porsche fan big wing dings these configurations overhead cams etc etc etc have been around for nearly years the point that they are trying to make is that while everybody settles for the orthodox inline they are using a horizontally opposed which is unique in that market segment and porsche also uses a flat six in their so what s the problem i don t see any claim that their engine is as good as a porsche s they are simply pointing out that they use the same configuration as a porsche if you want to nitpick ad campaigns i think there are far more blatant excesses than this eliot
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw thanks for all the recommendations i have decide to ignore the service indicators and do oil change myself every miles thanks again for all the responses derek
rec.autos	new mercedes diesels hi fellow auto enthusiasts does anyone have any info on the new valve per cylinder diesels mercedes is working on any specs on outputs engine size will they be direct or indirect injection etc would be welcome from what i hear these should be out late this year next year thank you in advance for your replies harjeet hsk microplex com
rec.autos	re replacement custom seats where to get in article c uqs h usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes in article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are a bunch of places to get them a corvette but i don t want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell i m going to store those and find a set to drive in i have all the vette catalogs but i m looking for a more generic type seat i can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are a concern i ve looked through some local boneyards without success i would just like to find a pair of cheapo s to use this summer tom call around to some wrecking yards in your area and if they have any look at fiero seats they are right down on the floor like a vette and not too wide if you can t find any let me know and i ll call around here for you i m sure these yards ship stuff all the time
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article bcd b ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass being a satisfied audi owner turbo quattro my th audi i get the free vag magazine the latest issue presented a new s avant wagon with a litre v i d like one of these btw this is my second quattro and my third turbo and i must say that even in the summer with dry roads the quattros give so much extra in road holding and balance that i hope i can afford them always thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
rec.autos	after market sunroofs power moonroof big type who makes the best hello all i know that after market sunroofs may have left a bad taste in some of your mouths but i am really interested in finding a good brand if one exists please let me know if you have heard of any makers with a good reputation few failures no leaks that sort of thing and whether or not you have had first hand experience with that manufacturer who is generally regarded in the industry as the best price no object maker of power sunroofs steve steve bonsib reply to sbonsib cac stratus com stratus computer marlboro ma
rec.autos	wanted toyota previa all trac low miles i m looking to buy a toyota previa all trac with low miles if you are selling one or want someone to buy out an existing lease please contact me by mail will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	centreforce clutch any one with experience in having a centreforce clutch or any other on his her car i m considering to replace my old stock clutch on my crx si what is a fair price martin
rec.autos	re chevy gmc x fullsize pickups opinions dick grady grady world std com wrote i am considering buying a chevy or gmc x full size pickup with the extended cab any opinions about these vehicles have there been any significant problems dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time i bought a brand new chevrolet k hd x extended cab last may it has had many many problems see my earler post that describes the situation i went to bbb arbitration and they ruled that chevrolet must buy it back from me if you do get one stay away from the speed manual with the deep low first gear they have put three of them in my truck so far after about miles overdrive either starts rattling or hissing loudly there is no way to fix them chevrolet says that the noise is a characteristic of the transmission also if you are planning to use your truck to tow the gear ratios in that tranny suck on a steep hill you get up to about mph in second gear at rpm yellow line if you shift to third the rpm drop to only and you begin to loose speed i should point out that the v they put in the hd gvw trucks is a detuned motor compared to the one they put in the light duty ones they dropped the compression ratio supposedly for engine longevity reasons so the light duty may pull better than my truck does other things that have gone wrong include the ventilation fan times so far paint had specs of rust embedded in the paint from being shipped by rail with no covering and suspension parts link between stabilizer and control arm fell off any company can make a bad individual car chevrolet included what really bothered me was the way they reacted they made no attempt to deal with me except to tell me to take it back to the dealer for them to attempt to fix it one more time so i bought a brand new ford f hd super cab with a and an automatic i will never buy another chevrolet jackw hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	high mileage audi question a question for any high mileage audi owners out there i am interested in buying a audi s for cdn the reason the car is selling for so little is that is has km on it just under mi the car s owner claims the car is in good condition my question is how reliable are audi s with mileage that high would it be worthwhile for me to buy the car any problem areas that i should look out for any help would be greatly appreciated post responses and or e mail me thanks steve hui
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr vw golf passat l vr inline v very narrow angle deg one head audi l v v don t know of any audi v l some mbs some bmws v jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil
rec.autos	re impala ss going into in a previous article george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org george howell says gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of a corvette and save about i like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in a big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights gimme a break you know chevy d screw that up just like that almost great truck with the big phat have you ever seen the mufflers on that thing it s amazing it moves which isn t to say it s not a good idea but i m quite sure chevy d screw it up the same way drew george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes my car was recently destroyed in a hail storm i fully expected to get jerked around by the insurance company i wasn t the only one who had hail damage state farm opened its claim centers on evenings and weekends and flew down additional adjusters from dallas i have no experience with state farm but i think it s important to differentiate your experience from a typical accident hail damage is clearly not the fault of the owner and also tends to be well publicized in the media so it s to the ins co s benefit to respond promptly and helpfully damage like this doesn t imply anything about the likelihood of future claims unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms so there s no reason for them to stop covering you that s a lot different from at fault accidents or theft related claims which may be more indicative of claim patterns
rec.autos	re warped brake discs on taurus l from bsw utrc utc com bruce s winters subject re warped brake discs on taurus l in the past few years i have owned mustang gts and now own a t bird sc they all have had this problem there was a recall on the t bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about k miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the t bird i ll never buy a ford again i just had my rotors on my taurus gl changed less than miles ago and you guessed it i m noticing slight warpage in the left rotor i had a mechanic friend of mine look at it and he said that there is a high spot on the rotor that is causing the problem this is a brand new rotor bought from a ford dealership can t they even produce a brand new rotor that is not warped i m currently negotiating with them to swap it out for a new rotor this is my first american build car and i m not overly impressed tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	v engines on the subject of the v ford in the uk used v engines exstensively in their ford transit vans this brings back a memory from the seventies i played in a band at the time and for something like pounds four of us bought a tranny to cart the gear around in it was in terrible shape cosmetically because it s last owner was a pig farmer we spent days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back to the engine if i remember right it was a cc v and that thing could haul we could fill it with equipment and up to people and it went like a bat out of hell of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a morris minor that worked great ah fond memories pwe slipknot mit edu i d like to own a squadron of tanks paul w emery ron nasty the rutles m i t magnet lab cambridge mass u s a costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles
rec.autos	re lemon law does anyone know the law kchupp kchupp kevin chupp writes my father is have lots of problems with a year old van what is the lemon law what should he do if he qualifies talk to philip greenspun he took ford to court recently and despite much manouvering and trickery on ford s part he won well actually i think ford settled out of court on the provision he shut his mouth and stopped causing them trouble i love it when the little guy wins i don t have philip s address anymore but a philip where are you call may bring him out of hiding cheers paul paul heuer phone avionics technology dsto pzh aeg dsto gov au fax po box salisbury south australia
rec.autos	re mr seats for sale in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes as the owner of an mr and having several friends who own them i am very uncomfortable when i see an ad like this when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see a statement saying where they came from i ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen i am the original owner of the seats and the original poster i take very serious offence in your statement me thinks thee dost protest too much please in the future think before you make allegations like the above he made no allegations and specifically gave the seller the benefit of the doubt he simply made the net aware of the fact that many of these seats are stolen so watch out and ask questions when buying that s good advice to follow when buying anything from a third party on the net or elsewhere it hurts touchy touchy mike s alex ridgway
rec.autos	re the mustang in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw dchan cisco com derek chan writes in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else shaz hmm but the service indicators that i have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so i expect to have a tool or a procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off i wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it s the first european car i have and changing oil at miles is a surprise to me and it s a big plus but i wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time i thought it s the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of a bmw derek there is a perfectly legal tool available to reset the bimmer service lights it will cost you from a mailorder and buying one far outweighs the possible consequences of destroying all the electronics if you try di it yourself you wonder how people do an oil change without knowing how it reset why is reseting so important the only reason for doing it is stop the annoyance of a red light staring at you forget this in european cars you only need to change the oil every crap anyone serious about keeping their engine in good shape and extending its life will change it every inc filter don t wait for the servive lights to come on before servicing the car i bought a bmw about months ago it had green lights on i have changed the oil every completly flushed brake fliud changed all filters oil air and fuel changed transmission and drive oils and done almost all of the other things req for service and a service after nearly miles i am still on green lights after a winter in burlington and it is snowing today that is not bad good luck blair blair e robertson a new zealander in vermont university of vermont posting his own ideas medical research facilty smooth muscle ion channel group colchester vermont email blair northpole med uvm edu telephone
rec.autos	how good is car wash wax question what s your experience with car wash wax this is the liquid type of wax in bottles that you pour it in water sponge it on you car hose it off and dry it with cloth many people have used it it is very easy to work with and gives seeminly the same visual results as that of paste type of wax but does it last long does it have any negative effects to car paint can you forward your reply directly to my email id thanks james
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds writes gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting mark mark rice mark rice columbiasc ncr com my views
rec.autos	re broncos does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos i m not talking about bronco ii s i m referring to the broncos that began production in based on the f chassis i believe ahh broncos well personally i have a the blue book is just a hair over grand i bought it for and then bought new tires front end rebuild carb rebuild then i did the unthinkable and blew the engine not bronco specific unmaintained engine with more bucks there now it is in nice condition well after new seats out of a t bird radio amps speakers alarm well the radio and amps were free and i bought the speakers used for bucks and the other speakers i took out of my old jeep sell a jeep for a bronco you might ask but it was a wagoneer its a lovely specimen solid front and rear axels ford and a dana up front watch the rear axel wrap i busted off my u bolts once i added traction shocks after that and haven t had a problem since also the bottom of the doors tend to rot bottom of the tailgates likes to rust right up to the new ones that might be in your budget the post broncos have that sickly ttb front end and little stamped and folded steel radius arms were as the have nice big cast iron longer radius arms ie more prspective wheel travel the only rust i have is on my doors and a few dings in the sheet metal i don t know when the removeable tops were discontinued but they are fun i just ordered a full convertable top for for mine credit card don t ever break the window if you have the double laminated bronzed privacy glass in your cap it is over bucks to replace my bronco also does pretty good offroad i haven t bottomed out my suspension yet and have crossed over foot deep of water with no problems handles rocks like a charm too one problem is it is wide and you sometimes can t follow a cj or a toyota between two rocks or trees and your grandmother will have a hard time getting up into it bob
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sjcostan magnus acs ohio state edu scott j costanzo writes he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration i ve ever seen having said all that i still don t know why anyone would want to shift a synchronized tranny without a clutch why do it ego trip mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes i have they showed the foot cam and telemetry for rusty wallace shifting at at lanta last year and he never touched the clutch except very slightly when down shifting hp is pretty powerful to me i doubt his trans uses standard syncros there are several mechanisms for coupling a gear with the transmission output shaft some of which are fine for racing and unsuitable for street use mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article afqzkhs iv e yiss andrew cmu edu joseph d mazza mazz andrew cmu edu writes btw i just saw the new q on tv this weekend the big changes a grille has been added looks nice too and some wood for the interior otherwise it looked largely unchanged they changed the lights and slope of the hood along with the new grille otherwise it is unchanged interestingly their lack of wood and lack of a grille was a big design statement they tried to defy conventional wisdom and carve their own niche unfortunately sales were only half those of the lexus and hence they now join the pack i still wonder if much of the problem wasn t the slow start from the initial ad campaign personally i like the q without the grille steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	info about audi used i am thinking of buying a used audi auto these cars look good and audi do have a good rep for these cars in europe where i m from i was just wondering if there anything about these cars that i should know parms
rec.autos	question about integra auto box i m new to this group and this may have been discussed already in which case my apologies but i have a integra with an auto box according to the manual the car has a lock up torque converter or something similar what is it what does it do and how does it work excuse my ignorance does anybody know parms no sig yet
rec.autos	new integra for i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig
rec.autos	re driver s seat best cars of the year tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes the golf also won ajac s automobile journalists association of canada car of the year award and unless i am mistaken i screwed up my borrowed vcr and got the first minutes the corrado slc was awarded ajac s sports sporty car of the year mattias tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in a previous article lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan r lusky says in article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes i m not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup but in the trans am cars i ve played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead of sychros in a transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place just out of curiosity how is this dog clutch any different from a synchro transmission what you described sounds the same to me in fact what little i ve studied on trannies the instructor referred to the synchros as dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed in a synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting or at least that is what i was taught explain por favour thanx drew ps email s fine if this is inappropriate for here or if i m the only bonhead who doesn t know the diff
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew
rec.autos	which radar detector should i buy i just entered the market for a radar detector and am looking for any all advice recommendations warnings etc from anyone in this group email is preferred thanks
rec.autos	re viper car alarms u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes ron viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that ron supposedly detects people approcahing the car ron if your viper system were tuned like a neighbor s is you wouldn t get any sleep because of the damn thing waking every one in the neighborhood up we all used to try to ignore the alarm but have now made a pact to bombard the house with night time visits and phone calls when ever we are awakened because some thunder storm passed over the next county or a stray dog looked at the car car alarms are a serious pain in the ass ks p s real men don t have car radios since the exhaust is too loud to hear it anyway grin k a sturrock anthropology georgia state university ksturroc gsu edu
rec.autos	gts headlight covers i have a eagle talon and i wanted a pair of gts headlight covers actually they are turning signal covers since the talons that year had pop up lights i went to a auto shop and bought the tail light blackouts for but they did not have the turning signal covers in stock i asked how much it would be and he told me it would cost me another i thought this was a bit high for two small pieces of plastic can anyone find me a cheaper pair or even a used one jay cadiz cadiz marble rtsg mot com motorola inc arlington heights il
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom says in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr vw golf passat l vr inline v very narrow angle deg one head audi l v v don t know of any audi v l some mbs some bmws v jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden drew
rec.autos	re manual xmission advice needed i don t think that a transmission fluid change will solve your problem unless you are in an extremely cold climate and using a very heavy weight fluid follow the manufacturer s recommended oil weight some of the cars i have had all standard transmissions or speeds recommend changing the transmission fluid at miles under normal driving conditions i ve gone without changing the transmission oil and had to replace the transmission bearings my older cars used weight oil whereas my honda uses motor oil or maybe weight
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary i agree with jeff s reply i ve never changed the brake fluid except when having a brake job which is usually at around miles alot of freeway driving however i will start to do this as preventative maintenance on my new car also there are brake system flushing agents that can be used but the problem is that if any of the agent is left in the system it can cause problems so it s been recommended not to use them unless you are certain that you can remove all of the flushing agent just for your info i was quoted a price of labor and fluid for flushing the brake system this in conjunction with a break job so i don t know if it was more without the brake job this is in the s f bay area
rec.autos	re vibration when brakes are applied hi javier how are things at corp my old stomping ground was c level vibration when applying the brakes can be caused on disc brakes at least by warped rotors when the brakes are applied there results uneven pressure on the rotor turning the rotors by a brake shop will remedy this problem as long as there is enough rotor width left for turning i e within spec there could be some possible front end suspension problem but a brake shop should be able to confirm warped rotors by a visual inspection which is free
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight
rec.autos	re v engines in article apr ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew r singer writes didn t the saab sonnett have a v i recall someone telling that it was something like of a ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used a cc or cc v from ford of germany this particular motor had a degree vee angle a balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the v commonly seen in the capri the v could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for a cylinder stroke chuck fry former sonett iii owner chuck fry chucko freud arc nasa gov this space for rent i alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above
rec.autos	ford explorer question and suv review ok so in my ongoing search for a sport utility here s the latest toyota runner small small small small the interior of this vehical is impossible for a large person too bad it would have been the winner otherwise nissan pathfinder very low ceiling my head hit the roof fun on bumps no also has a cheap looking interior isuzu trooper class act this is a really really nice vehical very comfortable handled ok has really cool grab handles everywhere but it s huge and the engine is a bit too small for it s bulk also the manual shift is weird and kind of awkward i d buy this if it were k cheaper or shorter but at this size and for this price no i kept picturing trying to park in in san francisco no thanks chevy blazer cheap looking small not as small as the toyota and nissan but still too small ford explorer this is no sports car and it s certainly not for the serious off roader but it s big enough to be comfortable without being as huge and heavy as the trooper it s engine has plenty of power for everyday driving though it would be nice if it had a bit more the automatic tranny is pretty nice head and shoulders above my mazda mpv the steering is not as tight as i d like but it s acceptable the two door has easy to enter back seats easier to get into in fact than the driver s seat of the runner and with a shorter wheelbase and the easier availability of a manual tranny yes i m a manual shift biggot i admit it it s the one i m thinking of buying so that said is there anyone out there who has one of these and hates it anyone had any major problems heard any horror stories also any reason to buy the ford over the mazda navajo both being essentially the same vehical thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	corvette car cover for sale i m not sure if this made it out so i ll try again i have an ecklar s sp corvette car cover for sale the cover is canvas on the outside and felt on the inside it is weather proof and in great condition i m asking and i ll pay shipping originally in october of carl mercer cm cci com evening day
rec.autos	re new integra for in article c ypt d tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig here we go again now these are just rumors so dont quote me new integra supposedly wedge shaped again hp and all wheel drive in top models then a variant called the zx r comes later roadster i think it gets unveiled at end of summer nothing about an airbag was mentioned but im sure it ll have one along with a nice hefty increase in sticker
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost you ll hear lots of ads screaming two dollars over dealer invoice sounds like a real deal huh no you know what the dealer invoice also called factory invoice is it s a piece of paper with numbers on it that the factory sends the dealer what do the numbers signify absolutely nothing it s a marketing gimmick that the salesman can wave in your face to impress you note that nowhere on the invoice does it claim to be the real price of the car and most ads which mention dealer invoice will end with a very fast low voice saying something like invoice may not reflect actual dealer cost actually i guarantee it does not reflect actual dealer cost also the reasonable profit for dealer is usually around three percent adjust according to the dealer cost of the car and any options that you want haggle like hell with the salesman over the cost of dealer prep and protection package i e a few squirts of paint and fabric protectant while you re at it ask the salesman to toss in a thing or two that doesn t cost him any cash my wife and i got a joyride in a twin turbo mitsubishi gt when we bought our mitsubishi mini van
rec.autos	ford probe import car of the year okay okay i know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it s made in michigan at a mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources i have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	re best radar detector in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes hi now that we have these gatso photo speed traps here i was wondering if anyone knows if radar detectors are capable of detecting photo cameras if not are there any other devices which will yup radar detectors that detect ka band will pick up photo radar as it s reflected from some poor slob ahead of you that just got nailed btw many photo radar installations in the southern u s became targets for high powered rifles or had their lenses decorated with cow flop etc not that i m advocating destruction of public property but you get the picture later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re plug wires do they really need replacement in article rgvv am haven umd edu vadik cs umd edu vadim maslov wrote hi netters i went to all tune and lube for routine maintenance and they said i need to change plug wires because they are original ones and you driven k miles on them i had a strong suspicion that they just wanted to make money wires had no visible defects and my repair manual doesn t recommend any scheduled maintenance for them is it plain vanilla rip off or there can be some backing behind their suggestion to replace wires i have ford taurus vadim maslov i once had a sparking problem with my mustang and simply changing the spark plug wires fixed it philip bush national champion motorola inc schaumburg il sho convention show email cpb email mot com rd place concours phone judged
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i ve found mine probe gt to do quite well window problem deleted artical has been trimmed i have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where i purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn t know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes a scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when i open close the window in wet weather anyone elses s do this i ve not had any of the air or leakage problems that have been reported but do get the squeal that bill describes i live in seattle so the wet weather may be a factor ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies if i recall correctly i got two keys horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible this is true i m wondering if this may be a safety concern ie if people pound on the place where the airbag lives speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns no opinion transmission the speed is a must i have always been a speed guy almost every car i ve ever owned has been a speed because i got a good deal on this car with the miles i knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is a pretty high tech automatic it is a fully electronicaly controlled speed with the speed is much more fun we opted for the automatic for a number of reasons but it s still fun and in some ways more practical no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still ditto shakes and rattles has been my main gripe i ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but i fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be a virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older i too would suspect that this may be true tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on a rough surface yes interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did a very very nice job on this one the car has a much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it ditto yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx agree check it out i don t mind it but would say that if it was much stiffer it might be a problem how about the r rx for suspension well i wouldn t encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as a parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been i d not have bought the car but it s definitely not a family car true i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which i ve had this problem and read about it or at least i assume the one i had was the one i read about in any case what happened was the weld between the muffler and the pipe feeding it ok so i m not a mechanic broke in my case the dealer welded it ordered replacement parts and put them on when they got them i suspect this is some sort of design flaw or production flaw in any case i have an earlier model and would expect it to be worked out on newer ones in any case it is a warrantee repair or they get the keys back from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though i have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but i seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well i second this there seems to be some things that slipped through but the car seems very sound while not perfection what is you get an awful lot for your money bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma btw bill has a probe mailing list you might want to subscribe to it if you are interested in more detail try request ford probe world std com did i get that right never can remember if the request goes on the front or the back john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise a right today
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho excerpts from rec autos apr re review ford tauru by mark w rice mozart colu in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us dav id bonds writes gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting one more way which works in manual trans cars i ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won t jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam
rec.autos	re viper car alarms mcrosbie batman bmd trw com writes in article c fr cdo cs uiuc edu u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts stuff deleted viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles i have a convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes a better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter i don t see the real benefit to these unless you have a convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by i saw one installed on a lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind stuff deleted ron garnett more stuff deleted merrill my neighbor runs a viper r distributorship and installs them on all saturns sold in my area anne arundel county md he has an sc with the viper voice alarm installed the alarm does everything turn on the car the radio the heater roll down windows unlock the doors the alarm goes off more frequently on hot days when a person walks by it gets sensitive up to about feet in degree heat it isn t as bad as convetional siren alarms because it doesn t continue to wail it just says protected by viper please stand back and shuts up mainly because the person walks away befuddled chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine in article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes let me explain why i feel the bogey counter feature is a gimmick radar waves bounce off objects especially metal that is how radar speed measurement works a high frequency microwave x band approx ghz and k is approx ghz is sent out and reflected back to the antenna off of an automobile or other objects if an object is moving a doppler shift about hz per mph on x band occurs is measured and converted to miles per hour these waves bounce all over the place and they can reflect many times and go in many directions from what i understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as a side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source i m certainly no engineer and really have no scientific basis on which to make this argument but don t you answer your own question is the reflected signal shifted at all from the act of being reflected if so wouldn t it then be easy for the detector to discriminate between reflections and direct sources here is the problem since the microwaves reflect how does the unit tell if it is a source or a reflection take a valentine and drive to the local grocery store that uses an x band radar door opener you can tell by the small black box above the door pointed down at about a degree angle and your detector going off when it gets near the valentine will count or bogeys from all directions front rear and sides it doesn t say which side the count changes as cars drive by and reflections change is there or sources not at the store i go to as i drive around with a standard detector i can only find one source and that is the door opener for the front door troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or david w hwang m d david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes each valentine is hand tuned to maximum performance is all the radar bands of coverage this of course adds to the labor cost and in turn the cost of the unit i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i don t work for valentine i am just a satisfied user of their unit if you really want the nitty gritty details on all this call the nice folks at valentine research they will be more than happy to explain their perspective on radar detection and analysis methods the calls free at it seems that there are more and more bands available for police radar each month i have recently purchased within the last months the bel stw while it is not a perfect detector by any means it does do the job fairly well now however i pick up a car magazine at the airport and read about this super ka wideband which is a superset of the ka wideband that this latest generation of detectors was touted as covering so now bel has a new series of detectors out that cover all the usual bands x k ka photo ka wideband as well as the new super ka wideband just as there comes a point of diminishing returns when chasing increased pc computing power with faster and faster cpus for the average home consumer at least it seems that there is now the same concern with radar detectors does it make sense to upgrade just months after purchasing my new detector is valentine upgrading their equipment if so it might be worth it for me to upgrade to the valentine i was in the market for a valentine when i purchased the bel but the month waiting time was just too much for me since i had inadequate protection with my passport life was much simpler when there was just x and k band and escort has the best equipment on the market and there was no need to continuously shop for a new detector i hope that the flood of new radar bands ceases with this new super wideband business allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care david w hwang m d david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	car tinting s hello again anyone here done any tinting work what are the best brands out there how about applications i heard there was a water based brand that s you can move around till it s just right and you then let it dry like that also i would consider having it professionally done how much around wisconsin or chcago area that does a decent job fairly cheap college kid thanks for all the info ps what is the maximum legal tint limit homi csd csd uwm edu
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set oil pressure oil temperature coolant temperature manifold vacuum ammeter voltmeter fuel pressure maybe problematic since you either need an electronic sensor gauge pair or you have to mount the damn thing outside the car in addition it d be nice to have a big red idiot light check guages connected to oil pressure oil temp coolant temp ammeter voltmeter with heaps of guages it s hard to look at them all all the time in the case of oil pressure for example you want to know right away if your oil pump goes bad unlike coolant temperature a minute or two of oil pressure would be a very bad thing tm adam adam g adamg microware com or uunet mcrware adamg the above is not to be construed in any way as the official or unofficial statements of microware or any microware employees
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article c xp kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article r f qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes sighting of such a fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road especially the shelby american gt kr king of the road so named to steal gm s planned camaro king of the road s thunder and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn t road legal i think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below some gt s are street legal some aren t this car was right hand drive weren t they all like that how much does a gt go for how many were made i found my shelby american guide there were a grand total gt s built gt coupes gt road cars gt mk ii gt mk iiis gt roadsters mirages gt mk ivs total additional uncompleted mk iiis twelve of these cars were prototypes racing coupes road coupes eight mk ii coupes lhd mk iiis and rhd mk iiis the other breakdowns follow the above list eg were mk ivs the lhd rhd breakdown is only given on the mk iiis the prices for those which can be bought are around the million mark last i heard with a projection of some million or thereabouts in it was second only to some penny ante ferarri shelby won the fia world manufacturer s cup with his cobras in that was also the year that he retired them from the shelby american racing team in favor of the ford gt program the next year that victory broke a year ferarri winning streak well there s lotsa info i could spout but i ll refrain much of this information comes from hot rod magazine s shelby american cobra mustang guide which has more info on the shelby american fords than you could ever want to know james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re new integra for in article c ypt d tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for well you can just about set your watch by honda releasing new models every years and an upgrade half way through the cars life the local acura dealership tells me that the new integra will be out very soon i e may june its hard to find specific details as the integra has been deleted from most of the rest of the world i have seen them in canada and australia as well as the u s but it was discontinued after the first generation in europe normally you can see new japanese models appear in europe or japan first and extrapolate from there c d reported that the engine would be a carryover i think craig does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c zzd kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not a flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for a car that will out perform all but a few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don t lie there are no comparable cars in it s class certinaly not for its price ehhhh maybe the mustang cobra does a good job for a lower price and it s just a taste of what s ahead in the th anniversary of the original pony car unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of a modified lt folks in a few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late s thats scary just think corvettes are almost up to the performance levels of a cobra wow in a few years they might be up to the performance levels of a ford gt wow man just think about it james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re bmw i in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes i looked at that bimmer yesterday it s an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants i liked the car despite it s auto tranny but my wife will be a primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the a c seems to have a leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is a bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that s teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is a shifty sob telling strange stories i hate that i would never buy from a persom like that except how often you see a descent i for that amount of money he also said that although i could bring a mechanicin he wouldn t let me check the car by taking it to a garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there s practically no rust i know there was an article on i in r d a few years back anybody remembers what issue mike s don t buy it all of the things you mentioned will just give you headaches later on also it sounds like the car needs a lot of work and as you probably know bmw s are not cheap to fix either the owner sounds like a shady character just trying to take advantage of someone sure sounds good but you should calculate how much the repairs will be it sounds like you would have to sink in at least to get everything fixed if not more also never trust anyone as far as mileage is concerned who knows how many miles are on it and how it was driven sure people tell you bmw s hold up but you have to consider any car is subject to wear and tear for all you know it could have miles on it the thing you have to remember is that this isn t the last i around either just wait and keep shopping for around you can probably find one that is better needs less repair and has legitimate mileage unlike the one you are considering take it from a guy who has been taken a couple of times good luck al himsl
rec.autos	re the mustang in article otnm b w w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes i can put a valve v with twin garret s on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track or on the street a yugo that will go mi in seconds will not lose on the street that s just too damn quick it might be wrapped around a telephone pole at the end of that quarter mile but it will be there alone have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or you could replace the stock shifter with a hurst short throw shifter available from ford motorsport or any number of other after market products to boost the performance of a mustang or camaro can you do that with a rx or verily with any mr with the detroit aftermarket you can build a mustang or camaro which is superior to either car you mention for less than the sticker price of either or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn well gee it works and it doesn t break it transmits power to the drive wheels and it s essentially zero maintenance and there s an aftermarket in parts for ford and chevy rear ends too and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s well the mustang cobra which from all reports uses the same running gear as mustang has wheel disks i can t speak for the new camaro but i think it does too also stop and think about the markets here the mustang is and always has been a mass market sporty car that s where the pony car class came from with a performance model that s why it has the econo box running gear that was also factored into the design of the mustang from the day lee iacocca conceived his baby it was designed as a wide market car sporty yet accessible with room for performance tweaking the cars you listed are designed for a specific market niche and they both fit those niches very well the mustang at least does well in multiple markets i can t speak for the camaro james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re last of the v interceptors mad max tony i believe first of all that max s car is an austrailian built car i don t think its a chopped up u s unit it may be called a kangaroo or roo or something similar not sure but i do recall reading that austrailian cars used ford v engines the ford v interceptor is i think a c i cop car motor whatever the case that small car with a screaming big block ford would probably smoke the tires for miles kilometers i hope someone out there can elaborate on the subject smoke em hard smoke em fast later david hertrich lincoln continental c i
rec.autos	re what car is this deloreans never had a factory v they were considering production with a turbo or twin turbo i forget version of the standard v as to who produced it you got me jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article c zzd kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not a flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out so you think a mustang cobra can match the performance of a new z interesting belief craig who neither owns nor wants to own any gm or ford product craig
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to then what is a flat engine flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards not to inject a non automotive note to this thread but the bmw opposed twin used in motorcycles for a long time is and always has been known as a boxer ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re last of the v interceptors mad max asdch acad alaska edu writes tony i believe first of all that max s car is an austrailian built car i don t think its a chopped up u s unit the last v in mad max is based on a holden australia holden is linked with gm vauxhall gb and so they re quite unlikely to use ford parts chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat i think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is a degree v and not a true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don t know about the vw bug though but i suspect that it is also a true boxer eliot are you serious the auto that had a lot to do with bringing the term boxer to the popular forefront was the ferrari berlinetta boxer or the bb had a liter opposed cylinder engine ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted the european version is called sx and have a liter engine with turbo and have more power than the us version hp it goes from to km h in sec and have a top speed of km h miles h i just purchased one new and i am looking for a repair book i could not find one in france and germany does anybody knows where to find one is there one in the uk probabaly no use to look in the us as the sx have here a different motor i am very pleased with the car and have no problem with it but like to have good technical documentation about the car i own regards
rec.autos	re v v v v vx ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com is this a joke geof evans domain rxkgre minyos xx rmit oz au if they really wanna know tell em that god was drunk
rec.autos	does a car wash hurt the cars finish can taking the car to a car wash hurt the car s finish and if so is it better to hand wash it about once a month or just take it to the car wash anyway are detailing places worth the money if i do a good careful job on washing and waxing is a detail place going to be worth it reply to my email address pfk crux cit cornell edu pk my views reflect cornell s sue them dry
rec.autos	tires comparison eve i am looking to buy new p r tires r or hr i don t have much to spend but i would like a tire that will last does anyone have any experience with the following brands riken falken bfg general there are others but these i can find here for under like i said i am mostly interested in threadwear then speed since i hardly get to drive them over or mph also is it true that noone will give you warranty on such tires according to a tire dealer finally do hr tires last longer than r tires threadwear again or is that strictly a speed factor thanks for any replies whatever doesn t kill me makes me stronger internet vpopesc calstatela edu bitnet vpopesc csla bitnet
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article issa cwis issa cwis unomaha edu issa el hazin writes don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal issa funny i thought the numbering scheme for both lexus and infiniti was related to sticker price more than anything else i e infiniti g around k q around k lexus es rip around k lexus es around k etc is there a conspiracy theory there spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re v engines in article apr kronos arc nasa gov chucko freud arc nasa gov chuck fry writes in article apr ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew r singer writes didn t the saab sonnett have a v i recall someone telling that it was something like of a ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used a cc or cc v from ford of germany this particular motor had a degree vee angle a balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the v commonly seen in the capri i think it was the reverse the v being of the v the v could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for a cylinder stroke it was also the worst engine that ford europe have ever made bloody awful reputation it s most successful application being the transit van saab gave up with this motor and then made the triumph half a stag v under license i believe but with litre capacity and perhaps a different arrangement for the cylinder head studs before developing their own straight four from the triumph kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re impala ss going into i still can t understand all the hype about the impalla ss it still has the ugly caprice body orca on wheels the caprice was the worst new body style to come out of detroit ever now just because the lt engine and a few suspension tweeks are being added its still ugly its still a barge gm s answer to everything is throw in a v and someone will buy it or add some plastic ground affects and a few stickers and call it a gt gtz or ss and someone will buy it imho gm needs to scrap the caprice body completely and start over with a blank sheet of paper no minor modification wheel well treatments tail amp modification or nose re design or even the lt engine will help the existing caprice jeff
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine re extended ka bands i recently bought a band detector you guys must all think i m nuts right well i did a little research into ka usage in this area and found out that ka is not currently being used in this state as well as surrounding states here s how i found out a cop friend who did spend time nailing speeders doesn t even know what ka is he s heard of k which is what they use here and i explained that ka is used for photo radar etc he then said yeah ka stands for k automatic duuhh he then went on to say that plans were being made for getting laser guns as far as going high tech were concerned but he didn t know too much my year old band whistler was consistently going off at speed traps even the real sneaky ones when i called the escort shop they confirmed that ka is not used here or in surrounding states they did claim that laser was being used a lot here which i was quite skeptical of so in the end instead of spending a lot of money and or waiting months for a state of the art detector i got a low priced high performance band escort incidentally its performance is equal to their top of the line model in x and k band detection i know that escort has been surpassed by other brands lately but i ve never fully relied on a detector and i was convinced that the escorts would be at least quite good which was good enough for me and my wallet eliot
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost that s probably true but it s the closest to it that you re going to get the actual dealer cost depends on a lot of things and even the dealer probably doesn t know exactly what it will be until all the factory kick backs incentives etc are paid and that often depends on his volume at the end of the month quarter whatever it might be a funny munber but it s all you have to start with except the sticker and anyone who pays sticker price is really being ripped off mark
rec.autos	re v v v v vx we have seen lots of discussion on automobile engine configuration let me ask a similar question from the aviation field you must have seen images of prop planes with all cylinders exposed i have seen up to cylinders positioned radially in a circular fashion with the prop at the center of the circle this arrangement always brings up a geometric dilemma how can one crankshaft throw accomodate rods or are the pistons displaced but not visible from the outside bijan
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho in article kfr ewc wa q wtt andrew cmu edu sam swett ssbc andrew cmu edu writes one more way which works in manual trans cars i ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won t jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam i can vouch for this method in my sho this is the only sure way of putting in the reverse without any problem every time vikas sontakke digital equipment corporation maynard ma internet sontakke helix enet dec com uucp decvax ucbvax allegra decwrl helix enet sontakke sontakke helix enet decwrl dec com
rec.autos	re license plates in article anl ollie solbourne com guerra solbourne com edi guerra writes i would like to know if anyone still has a copy of the list of license plates that were posted some time ago regarding special names and sayings thxs edig me too markus
rec.autos	bmw parts greetings automobile enthusiasts can anyone tell me if there is a mail order company that sells bmw parts discounted cheaper than the dealerships sorry if it s a faq email replies very much appreciated thanks jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be a weapon a minister of death praying for war
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter i also experience this kinda problem in my bmw during cold start ups the clutch seems to be sticky and everytime i drive out for about km the clutch seems to stick onto somewhere that if i depress the clutch the whole chassis moves along but after preheating it becomes smooth again i think that your suggestion of being some humudity is right but there should be some remedy i also found out that my clutch is already thin but still alright for a couple grand more
rec.autos	those nasty insurance people hello everyone i have an insurance question allstate insurance situation person wrecks car car is drivable to dealer person reports accident no other cars involved driver estimates damage cost exceedes cost of car insurance people claim car is totalled because of exceeding repair costs person says wwhhhaatttt but i drove the car here and takes it to another place other place estimates in damage less than the dealer one more hitch the car is registered in florida but the accident occurred in pennsyvania question should the insurance recognize and pay for the damages of this now fixable car even though they prematurly declared totalled please respond via e mail if you think you know anything about this sort of thing chris camp wpic pitt edu thanks
rec.autos	re ford probe import car of the year in ri rv jfl msuinfo cl msu edu newman cps msu edu timothy s newman writes okay okay i know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it s made in michigan at a mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources i have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated ford aimed for us content when they designed the new probe in actual practice it came out to us content if my is any example the that is imported may be the engine and brakes at least the had missybitchy brakes tim newman newman cps msu edu bob
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article c rrw g w austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes i ve owned a saturn for and year and a half and didn t have the extended warranty but just traded it in for a for reasons that i won t mention unless someone wants to know i opted for the year mile extended with deductible it s sorta like buying health insurance you could say that you re not sick now and haven t been sick for a while but you can t guarantee that you won t be sick tomorrow a little money invested today is better than being sick tomorrow and now being able to pay for it or having to pay a lot more tomorrow than you can today justify all you want extended warranties are a ripoff high profit item for the dealer and you didn t buy yr k you get yr k free so what you bought is yr k and you still have to pay every time you use this great warranty better to put your money in the bank and use it for repairs if when you need it considering that your last car was only years old are you sure you will even keep this new one past it s free warranty period btw typical profit on extended warranties is around that s right only of the money needs to go into the collective pot to pay for any future repairs that the group of extended warranty people collect
rec.autos	re the mustang and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s vlasis theodore good point you would think by now that most car companies would just make wheel disc standard and be done with it can it really cost that much more for disc especially when you think of the economies of scale they would gain by just making them all wheel disc no seperate parts numbers and orders etc btw the z and trans am and formula have wheel disc but the bottom line models have the rear drums
rec.autos	re is car saftey important safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me evengreater safety handling speed for the rich ie merc sel
rec.autos	re changing oil by yourself idiots in article apr cs tulane edu mark luke cray com mark dean says quit whining on the net about changing your oil yourselves if you can t handle such a simple procedure as changing your oil then get somebody else to do it and get the hell off the network md cool off these people have as much right to be here as you do btw is this the kind of friendly helpful service we should expect from cray
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article bense oasys dt navy mil bense oasys dt navy mil ron bense writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn t you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor i know i would and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron exactly you took the words right out of my mouth ron nancy j feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious
rec.autos	corolla spd hi there maybe you can help me i have an corolla with a speed as the subject line says the gearbox seems excessivly clunky i used to have an corolla and it was also somewhat clunky but it had more miles on it and it wasn t nearly as bad as this car is there fluid in the speed case if there is could it just be low or in need of a change as i recall only the autos have fluid or am i just mistaken please no flames for owning an import i also have an old dodge but it s not in very good shape these days thanks derek
rec.autos	datsun nissan z cars well the opel deal fell through now i m looking at a datsun z for sale in our local buy sell any previous owners have any experience with these cars besides looking for rust good compression low miles and all the other usual car things one looks for is there anything special about these cars that i should watch out for how about things like handling performance mileage etc these cars look hot to my eyes at least and bear more than a passing resemblance to the aston martin db zagato sp which has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made what is the difference between z z z the zx is rather unappealing imho but the other cars are decent thanks again darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca
rec.autos	re waxes polishes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bbarnard magnus acs ohio state edu bret d barnard writes with spring upon us it s time to start waxing again i was wondering if anyone had any suggestions about waxes and polishes i know carnuba wax is often recommended on the net but i was wondering about the colored waxes to cover up some minor scratches do the colored waxes give on overall good quality shine are they good for the paint or clear coat what about liquid glass is it a clear polish which dries clear thus filling scratches is it good for the paint clear coat please post with both good and bad experiences and hey let s name names brands here all gimmicks stick with plain ol carnauba wax that s non abrasive eagle meguiars turtle wax and a few others are good examples the colored waxes just color in the scratches so they re not so apparent the better approach is to buff minor scratches completely off with a cleaner mild abrasive never tried liquid glass although i still have this sample they sent me a few years back aaron
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me some real stupid remarks you and the beav should lighten up esp the beav i agree that lots of serious dribble for no real reason hey i don t really care but when someone sends me email telling me to fuck off i get rather pissed if he posted to the net i could really care less but sending mail is just childish mr infant e is just that an infant give him a few more years to grow up and maybe he ll learn some network etiquette if you can t stand the flames and you don t have the brains stay out of the newsgroup kind of catchy n est pas the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion one point not yet mentioned hands on the driver s shoulders are a definite no no it feels good for the passenger to stretch her arms and a shoulder massage feels good too but the shoulders are connected to the arms and the arms to the handlebars should you hit the brakes the pressure on the shoulders can make steering interesting bundle her up if it s cold make sure she has good gear say it again an pat her thigh to let her know all is great good luck mike
rec.motorcycles	re mail order response time in article oasys dt navy mil sturges oasys dt navy mil richard sturges writes i have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had to backorder something but they sent me a card to say it would be two weeks came in days or so ordered fork seals and guide bushings from ca for my fzr two weeks later get fork seals and guide bushing call ca and ask for remaining guide bushing and order slide bushings explain on the phone which bushings are which the guy seemed to understand two weeks later get guide bushings sigh how much you wanna bet that once i get all the parts and take the fork apart that some parts won t fit axel
rec.motorcycles	exhaust coating since at least one other person was interested in this my fzr s black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired yesterday i bought a can of vht degree black header paint and spent an hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand sprayed on paint thought about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that i wouldn t be at all suprised if the paint wore chipped off in a month soooo call a couple of places up in minneapolis and discover that powder coating while extremely durable will not handle over degree temperatures the place i talked to said they were experimenting with some new powder that is supposed to handle degrees but that it wouldn t be available for months at least they directed me to another shop that specializes in header coating the other shop said they have coatings available one is aluminized that can do degrees and is comparable to powder coating for durability the other is silicon i think based and can do degrees but is thinner and not as durable both coatings have a textured finish not super smooth and should be cleaned with hot water and a brush price for foot header pipes and a foot collector was i m planning to take the parts up friday and get them back ups next week maybe wednesday sounds to me like this kind of coating stuff should be way better than paint considering how much abuse the pipes get from road crap rocks axel
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between plus the food is good too ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re question in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article r ldinn rp frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod this has to be a setup lookit same site as arnie skurow probably just want to see how many faq s they ll get oh well here goes
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me if by quick wiggle to the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning to the left what is the input to the steering mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old shove shove david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re battery charger in article netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes i just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts dc ma the question is can i trickle charge the battery on my cb with it you could but it would be considerably cheaper to spend or so on a trickle charger from k mart venture or target then it would be to replace the halogen lamp power supply after you fuse it trying to pump current into the battery while charging the charger should be putting out around or volts as well jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	dual sport recomendations i am looking at buying a dual sport type motorcycle this is my first cycle as well i am interested in any experiences people have with the following motorcycles good or bad honda xr l suzuki dr s suzuki dr es yamaha xt most xxx vs yyy articles i have seen in magazines pit the honda xr l against another cycle and the always comes out shining is it safe to assume that the would be of equal quality thanks joe
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i ve had people in cages wave at me or give me the thumbs up on occassion i always return the wave or thumbs up that never happened to me until i started riding harleys so that may have something to do with it why not try waving what bad could happen russian roulette is fun times out of paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article r v k lnr agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt new technology yeah and what about my honda cx also a v twin but in the other direction cycle experimental got this from a mechanic at al lamb s honda at cbr f allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx this bike is awesome and i m fearless let s go jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes to follow up i had a bad experience w a krypto lock too last year i bought a krypto cable ii x long something like that that by all standards seemed like a decent piece until i used it anyway so in short the cables seems to be pretty useless i would guess the larger cable seems to be a much better unit i ve got the larger cable about inch in diameter actually i think its larger about feet long which coils into a or inch coil with the tubular key lock like the u locks it has worked fine for me for two years now and seems to me anyway that it is very secure it doesn t have the weaknesses that the u locks have other than the liquid nitrogen trick supposedly is much easier to store in my tankbag than a u lock and more versatile i got mine from one of the mail order houses motorcycle accessory warehouse i beleive for in combination with an ignition disable and a couple of other deterrents all i usually worry about is vandalism randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply i knew when i posted that i was going to get into trouble now i suppose i have to give wheelie demos at the spring fling or something but you re right john it is a chain drive model i think it goes around the camshaft and up over the rocker arms or something stolen from an early spagthorpe design according to urban legend bill wrs gozer mv com bill slack dod but her tears were shed in vain and her every word was lost in the rumble of his engine and the smoke from his exhaust oo o o
rec.motorcycles	wanted uk bmw insu tips hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans an extended ride as a passenger on a ninja owww well i hate to be a wet sock but well i was a passenger on many bikes for the longest time before i started riding myelf and i grew to hate long rides on sport bikes the passenger seats are not designed for long rides the passenger positions aren t even usually designed for short rides i ended up torturing my knees and my back by taking long rides as a passenger on sport bikes one of the reasons i originally liked my current guythingy so much was becase he had a bmw i d suggest a shorter extended ride at first a short turn in the mountains or some such then see how much pain she s in and proceed from there the best advice i d give a beginning passenger don t get on the bike until the rider says its ok and work out some sort signal for the rider to tell you when its ok to get off after i get on the bike i squeeze my riders hips to tell that i m ready and at the stop he nods his head to show its ok for me to get off keep your feet on the pegs at all times don t wiggle unless your rider asks you to the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean of your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder on the inside of the turn get used to your rider s shifting style riders use a reasonably consistent shifting style avoid helmet bonk helmet bonk is when your rider revs the bike up and then shifts and the sudden change in foreward acceleration causes your helmet to bonk his hers it gets old real fast when pulling to a stop put a hand or both hands on the tank to keep your weight from pushing your rider up onto the tank putting your hands on the tank is also a good way to stretch your back if you re in pain but i m told it gets harder to steer in turns if you leave them there switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider don t be afraid to ask for frequent stops if you re in pain or losing feeling in your feet passenger seats are not generally designed for comfort work out some sort of pull over signal beforehand laura lemay lemay netcom com writer of trifles in shadows and blood
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat a deal or what they are free in philadelphia who pays for these cheapie msf deals are your states subsidizing them here they are for erc and for msf and no the state doesn t subsidize ours at all we do for every motorcycle endorsed license laz
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article zowie apr daedalus stanford edu zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes turn dynamics sit so that you feel like you re sitting upright good advice please no sudden moves my ol lady taps me on the shoulder to let me know she is uncomfortable i in turn am prepared for her to move about on the back of the bike trust is essential we had bad crash nail in rear tire on left hand sweeper at crest of hill on pavement pea gravel road and her actions helped lessen the severity of it as we were crashing she stayed upright in the saddle with her feet on the pegs and her hands about my waist i was able to get the bike slowed down mph before we were high sided she got off with a fair case of road rash and i had to have the doc remove a lot of rocks from my knee had she panicked we would have probably crashed at greater speed causing greater injury btw as soon at the tire went flat we went into violent tank slappers this is what she rode out in a normal riding posture dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i waved to a guy on a riding mower this morning does that count btw i live in the country everyone waves out here dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive absolutely early xs s were very good at this mike terry virago don t try it on your virago unless you already are purty good at it or like the smell of exploded clutch go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article apr hsh com binger hsh com writes in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding i might only add two things stupid road design or poor at least and here in louisiana the state sign is caution sub standard roadway dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect dana h myers on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid dana h myers i m a bmw squid two of my arms are longer too nick the bs biker dod concise oxford longer arms m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk lisa rowlands on the wed apr wibbled can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com w lt lisa try pip on she does wonderful things with paint i ve seen her work and it s good best of luck nick the well connected biker dod concise oxford boring paint job m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter dave edmondson on the wed apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin it is posts morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension ob bike at long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get a mail address so we can bung him on the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin what you mean like the one in my bleedin signature hello nick the connected biker dod concise oxford mail address m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re insurance discount in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way i m moving to the bay area so i ll be insuring the bikes there and registering them to ease me of the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost of insuring a zr and a r gs here in tucson they only cost me full and liability only for the two per annum my agent is daniel sui and he s done quite a good job for me you might check with him as he s located in san francisco and specializes in bike insurance daniel sui insurance balboa street san francisco ca michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes freebie and the bean great chase scene on a trials bike dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling some guy came to the omrra race school last weekend with number plates on his v max he didn t get more than practice laps in before he pushed the frame too hard and it drove him into the guard rail on the back straight btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that s all i know i hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured let s hope not but semi coherent sounds like a good description of someone who shows up at the track w a vmax in the first place what does that make me for showing up with an old interceptor with worse brakes and handling due to bent frame than a vmax and i didn t even uh well i was more than semi coherent when the ambulance uh nevermind axel
rec.motorcycles	re need parts info for maicoletta scooter in article r uea m slack sim es com pashdown slack sim es com pete ashdown writes also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes vintage brakes bluefield ave newbury park ca they reline all types of obsolete motorcycle brake shoes with ferodo material also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with place to try deutsches motorrad register grover place shreveport la club for all types of two wheeled german equipment including scooters i periodically see ads for maico scooter stuff in their newsletter dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive only on the front wheel use the lever on the right handlebar to accomplish this michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re need maintenance tips in article c riwa or world std com cgkarras world std com christopher g karras writes after reading the service manual for my bike suzuki gs e i have a couple of questions i hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check it with the cap screwed in or not most bikes i ve seen that use a dipstick rather than a sight glass are designed to check it without screwing it in in the manual for my cbr rr they specifically state it should be done this way michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re exhaust coating in article coburnn spot colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum writes my fzr s black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired yesterday i bought a can of vht degree black header paint and spent an hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand sprayed on paint thought about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that i wouldn t be at all suprised if the paint wore chipped off in a month parts deleted axel axel why not just purchase one of the fyex exhaust bras for about they look great and are cheaper than powder coating i had the same dilemma and opted for these i am quite pleased ok so what s an exhaust bra i m guessing it s not a fabric thing that straps to the pipes does it go over the chin fairing lowers in some way i usually don t ride with the lower plastic axel
rec.motorcycles	a kinder gentler bmw mailing list i know there s already a bmw mailing list but since it s an r bike only list and limited to the r r bikes as well i believe i ve decided to give this a go and see how much interest there is please read all of this post if you plan on subscribing to the list there is only one restriction for the discussion on this list that it be about bmw s i don t care which bmw any and all are welcome i will probably post articles that appear in the local bmw club newsletter and would incourage other club members to do the same especially tech articles to subscribe to the list send a message to the list address bmw rider cactus org with the word subscribe in caps in the subject of the message having the word subscribe in the subject is the only way to subscribe if you put the keyword in the message body your message will go out to everyone on the list and you will be ridiculed beyond belief your from line must have a valid return address the list sw will use the address in your from line if you would like to use a return address other than what is contained in your from line do not send mail to the list send a note directly to me joe rider cactus org and i ll take care of it manually the list sw will hack up the outgoing message from line so that your original full name in s is preserved but the return address is replaced with the mailing list address bmw rider cactus org this allows you to simply reply to a message to keep it on the list depending on your mail interface natch i use elm so that s what i wrote it for keep this in mind when you reply to a message and question the authors parentage to remove your name from the list send a message to the list address with the word unsubscribe in caps in the subject of the message having the word unsubscribe in the subject is the only way to remove your name from the list if you put the keyword in the message body your message will go out to everyone on the list and you will be ridiculed beyond belief the list is run from my home system a poor little box running a very old version of something that smells somewhat like unix the mta isn t the smartest around but i ve managed to hack it up enough to make a decent list mta additions and removals are handled automatically by scripts that intercept messages based on the subject see below and may occassionally goof the sw will send a response message back when you subscribe if you do not receive a response within a reasonable amount of time my link is via uucp and sometimes runs in spurts send me a message joe rider cactus org and i ll look into it if the list turns out to be too popular and the mta groks over the number of addresses i ll have to freeze the list recipients until i can come up with a better mta good luck joe senner joe rider cactus org joe mpd tandem com bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	personal to michael moscoso michael you sent your inquiry to the bmw mailing list but the sw replaces your return addr with the list addr so i can t reply or manually add you please see my post re the list or contact me directly joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	xs never needs valve adjustments i bought a yamaha xs with k miles over the last years i ve put k of commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed to be every k well every k or so i ve checked the pad clearences and they never change if anything the clearances seem to be getting a little smaller which makes no sense to me with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right i know that threaded adjusters can tighten up but i didn t think these kind could bottom lines is that i haven t touched my valves for k on this bike and they are still nice and quiet and if anything the clearances are tighter what s the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes i ve had people in cages wave at me or give me the thumbs up on occassion i always return the wave or thumbs up that never happened to me until i started riding harleys so that may have something to do with it ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport yeah it s impossible to be a tough biker when a year old starts waving at you the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re test ride on a gts in article r finnqsp spim mti sgi com timl zulu mti sgi com tim layman writes after signing the i will buy the bike if i wreck it and i will not sue you no matter what papers they just pointed me at the bike and said have fun i was a little nervous well a lot nervous mainly because it is a very expensive bike and i would hate to have to buy a new one let alone a wrecked one are you sure harley s disclaimer says if you crash we take care of the bike you take care of you if you were really responsible for the bike did your insurance cover it ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes is it a genetic thing with little boys or what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted to motorcycles of virtaully any sort often to the dismay of thier mothers i think you just answered your own question ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re wanted uk bmw insu tips i d benham on the wed apr gmt wibbled hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner my best advice would be to contact a local dealer see the yellow pages under motorcycle dealers and ask for the address of the local section bmw owners club the local bmw dealer will give you details of the bmw insurance terms and the club will help you with all details getting a bike from the dealer is the best bet if you can afford it the warranty is fairly handy as bm bits are made from solid gold apart from the parts made from ruby and platinum apparently nick the perpetually broke bmw biker dod concise oxford no loot m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know an ft ascot was my first bike i recommend it if anyone s interested mine s for sale it s in la currently with a bum starter and around k miles i d like a couple hundred for it rich
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles l lmsc is lmsc lockheed com writes thread degenerated to comparative costs of msf courses deleted hey even at the highest price mentioned us the course is in glassboro new jersey a bargain worth every penny and there are lots of things you ll get related to your bike that won t feel that way about patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips in article c xy x g world std com artc world std com art campbell writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy i mean while they are off are they comfortable they re a hard rubber like compound i always wear some kind of glove fingerless on the hottest days given those two factors they re ok but certainly not cushy when i needed heated grips i made them from pieces of an old bicycle inner tube and a cheap electric heating pad from the drugstore on top of foam grips soft and warm cheaper by about a factor of too david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re death of a stroke why did it die zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au zebee johnstone writes loads of horrendous mz engine problems deleted any ideas folks yeah buy a four stroke
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article c w y ebt cmptrc lonestar org neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard wrote hey the lone biker of the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses at night it s loud and lights up the whole underpass it does i do it to keep people off my ass they really back away when they see canon fire rolling out the back of a harley oh yea it raises hell with the baffles john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re posted gif of bmw r s in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears wrote went and played w columbia s scanner and scanned in a bunch of pictures of my new to me bmw r s they are however not color but greyscale gifs mind posting those to the euro archive we have a directory specifically for bmws ftp vax winona msus edu user euro pass spooge cd bmw get and put as you please john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes i generally find that after two or three decent hits of nitrous my riding improves enormously drinking is silly your breath smells it costs lots of money and the pigs can detect it with their machines no works for me try it and its free just sit behind an old car in a jam and breathe deeply only if there is a dentist in the car otherwise you get no out the back me thinks you gots your gases confused what comes out of cars is carbon monoxide what comes out of whippits is nitrous oxide co n o
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit about a year and half ago when i first started riding i took a msf course i have taken those lessons to heart over the past year i have had only a few near collisions with traffic morons on four wheels yesterday i got to add another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes the tachometer has a sticker right on it that says for the first miles do not go over rpm s and for the next miles don t go over referred to as the break in period if you didn t know well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit but you already can go at the speed limit at rpm all you need to do is to find a road with a mph speed limit this isn t quite as silly as it sounds if you take a nice day trip over back roads not highways full of people trying seriously to get from here to there then you might be able to hold mph comfortably you could easily do miles over three different weekends you might even get to enjoy some of the scenery yes i know this is probably not why you bought a called ninja david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes bobm brimstone bob morley writes in article sfppisk wb hpo e andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help mcguyers makes a full line of polishing compounds and waxes read the lables and pick the one that matches the marks that you see on the paint then do both you and your fiance a favor by putting a nice thick coat of the carnuba wax on the bike after that those little scratches will just buff out concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc in article c x vh in inform co nz dev inform co nz michael seales writes in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc sure they are here we can buy gsxr gsxr cbr cbr fzr fzr zxr so what s the problem small agile learner s bikes well the problem just might be that you can t buy any of these bikes in north america except the gsxr bandit bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	none i am thinking of going on a motorcycle tour in new zealand in the november january timeframe there are a few tour companies doing this notably beach tours can anyone who has done this let me know of their experiences both good and bad thanks bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride too easy when you are dragging your pegs while driving in a straight line actually i ve driven in mph side winds with just a little difficulty the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re contemplating ottawa san francisco ottawa trip in article lbpvs l quantum qnx com david gibbs dagibbs quantum qnx com writes greetings rec motorcyclists coming up labour day weekend this year worldcon world science fiction convention will be held in san francisco california i am planning to attend and have been speculating on doing my trip there by motorcycle instead of by plane as was my initial thought i live and would be departing from ottawa ontario canada i had planned to take two weeks for this trip giving me days travel time on either side of the weekend this looks like a distance of about miles km if your distance calc is correct for an on the road distance and not as the crow flies this is km a day for days if you spend the entire time on interstates which would be a total waste of time that s at least hours on the road every day not including eating peeing sight seeing etc i was contemplating a similar trip but from ottawa to la or maybe ottawa to austin tx i figured if i wanna do a trip of this magnitude and enjoy it i d have to get my ass off the major interstates and spend lots of time enjoying the country around me i e stopping with a camera meeting towns people going to a few bars no sense spending weeks looking out a helmet with the closest human contact found at the gas pump i estimated i d need at least weeks to make the trip worthwhile i am looking for input opinions comments or snarky remarks on my sanity in question suggested routes note getting there is important and my schedule doesn t leave a lot of room for side trips or circuitous routes try and stay off the interstates anybody who wants to join me on this trip for even part of the distance depending on your route and my plans i may be heading that way as far as at least detroit anything that comes to mind and that you think might be relevant call the whithorse pess they re a book distributer catering to motorcyclists they have a large number of books highlighting the best roads for motorcyclists along the general route you re looking at they carry listings of bed and breakfasts all through the states which accept motorcyclists order their free catalog and within you ll probably find books covering absolutely all you needs for this trip their s in the motorcyclist and or cycle world classifieds thanks for any input david gibbs dagibbs qnx com kawasaki concours dod o k dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when it s too windy to stand when you re on the road in high winds stay alert even more alert than your alert cause you re on a motorcycle and they re out to kill you kind of alert be aware of the terrain and how it may funnel wind in sudden gusts well not gusts to somebody standing there but it s gusty cause you ride through it if you are riding in a steady crosswind be aware of a hill that will block the wind and adjust your lean angle be aware of passing trucks to your windward side your lean angle will change dramatically both as you enter and as you leave their turbulance cone reducing your profile may help ie lean on the gas tank and kiss the triple clamp keep a nimble hand on the steering be ready to countersteer into and out of sudden wind bursts keep a larger than usual buffer zone both ahead and behind and to the side you can easily be blown half a lane over before you can react by countersteering keep a close eye on traffic in your mirror if someone is coming up wanting to pass get out of their way early stop often for short brakes extensive riding in high winds is both mentally and physically fatiguing ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example polysyllabic is polysyllabic too
rec.motorcycles	re starting trouble cbr f in article z sf rpi edu chungy aix rpi edu yau felix chung writes i am having trouble starting keeping running my cbr f i have had problems with it since last year but it seemed to have subsided now it s back again problem persists regardless of choke usage pattern gasoline type brand octane and pretty much anything else i can imagine to change the dealer is stumped it s still under warranty i start the bike it runs great for a while seconds then the engine starts to slow down decreasing the idle setting will increase the engine speed increasing the choke increases the engine speed regardless the engine will eventually slow down and stop once stopped it will not restart even after flooded engine drill if i let it sit minutes it starts beautifully and runs great for ever so i go out ride it hard for miles and bring it back ride it easy for a few miles to let it cool down and put it away next day i go thru the same drill to get it going any ideas has anyone seen this before another f rider had similiar problems and this is the mail i sent him hope this helps resolve you problem at allen tobias writes check the vent tube to the tank sometimes the tube is clogged or constricted this prevents gas from flowing into the carbs because of the vacuum created by the displacement of the gasoline this is the small tube on the bottom of the tank the large tube is the overflow you will have to remove the left side tail section to get access to this area good luck but if it was clogged wouldn t this interfere with engine operation all the time when it runs it runs well good point did not catch this in the original post the only other things which come to mind since this is a gravity feed fuel system is this the fuel petcock valve is vacuum controlled from the carburator let suppose there is a small hole or bad seal either in the hose itself or the vacuum valve in the fuel petcock when it is cold the hole is open enough to open the valve just enough to allow gas to the carbs with the choke on since the choke creates more low pressure in the carbs when on to draw gas and as the engine and surrounding area warm up the hole seals up one way to check fuel flow through the valve would be to pull the side panels off and remove the fuel hose to the carbs connect a tube of the correct size preferably clear tubing to observe fuel flow on the output side of the fuel petcock remove the control hose from carburator make sure the tank is full place the valve in the on position and apply vacuum to the control hose preferably with a vacuum device with a gauge to check for air leaks with vacuum applied fuel should flow freely to see if there is a vent problem do this with the fuel filler cap open and closed if it flows a lot faster with the filler cap open then there may be something in the vent airway which changes position and depending on the position may clog or partially clog the vent i have heard of some f fuel tanks being replaced to fix this problem so the things which might be defective are the control hose from carb the petcock valve and possibly the fuel tank vent now if all of the above shows no problem of fuel flow when cold then there is something in the carbs screwed up but there are so many things to check i would be typing all day to list them all here are a few with everything back together apply vacuum to the petcock valve and open the drain holes on the carbs one by one to check fuel flow open up the airbox and check for foreign debris or clogged airways on the carbs there are quite a few on each carb i hope something is flushed out with all this trouble shooting if american honda does not resolve this get mad as hell and report them to the bbb and call the honda customer service hotline it is a number but i don t recall it off the top of my head i called just about tires for my f and a few days later a customer satisfaction inquiry card arrived at home asking how i liked the support i received here would be your chance to tell them what you think buy the service manual on the f it is an invaluable source of information for working on your bike and i might add trouble shooting
rec.motorcycles	re bikes jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada do you know what syd meant when he wrote that line damn am i in the wrong newsgroup again wrong newsgroup or no what did syd mean when he wrote that line erc the always curious dod
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c wqsr l myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km careful i was similarly impressed with it at first but recently i have started finding rust spots on the chain i went back to pj at least the sucker never rusted when i was using the bluegoo tm spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re xs never needs valve adjustments smead hpstc rose hp com steve smead writes i bought a yamaha xs with k miles over the last years i ve put k of commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed to be every k well every k or so i ve checked the pad clearences and they never change if anything the clearances seem to be getting a little smaller which makes no sense to me with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right i know that threaded adjusters can tighten up but i didn t think these kind could bottom lines is that i haven t touched my valves for k on this bike and they are still nice and quiet and if anything the clearances are tighter what s the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals yeah i had an xs that was the same the valve seats tend to wear very slowly and anything that might get taken off the pad which shouldn t really wear will tend to compensate so it s a sort of self compensating system
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes in article rmccu cunyvm bitnet rmccu cunyvm bitnet robert chambers writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante says if you can t you ve obviously waited too long or are not putting much effort into it my lb dog not always used to fart all the time by making her notice it of course the smell doesn t bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came to realize that she shoudln t do it at least not around me and now two years later she still doesn t so how big is this dog now about the size of cow ready to burst what s that supposed to mean she s lbs understand english she let wind break cause i fed her cheap food and not the same thing every time so she had to adjust to each different brand for a while andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in r pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes why just the other day a large group of us where lamenting how much we admire and wish we could be just like those macho british studs we ve all grown up idolizing well and i thought all yanks were parochial ostriches so some of you can at least aspire to better things andy when are you ever going to get it straight all yanks are self satisfied gits it s the canadians that are parochial ostriches no the yanks are we are are midway through our insipid invasion of florida and they aren t even aware of it yet jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has a lot less maintenance which is fine if you don t mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article c wduw l o nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i think you are small feeble minded bunghole yeah it was one stupid little act when are people like you gonna get it through they re thick excuses for a skull to their pea sized piece of shit they call a brain that it was once why don t you go back under the rock that the navy has provided for you and your homophobic racist sexist asshole friends that who give you daily rim jobs and place your opinion where it belongs up your ass or alternatively blow me you closeted wannabe andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit i had the same inconvenience when i bought my ex only i could at least go mph during the initial break in despite the high quality of motor oils and motorcycle engines these days i would follow the instructions and just keep to city street riding for the first miles heck those miles go by fast and it s worth it to know you haven t possibly screwed up your engine at the same time this has all the makings of a week long thread debating the whole break in topic alan
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i have a very important question that i haven t been able to find an answer to i ve asked mechanics and others about this but no one can really give me an answer that satisfies me i just bought a brand new kawasaki ninja i am a first time buyer as well as a first time rider and this bike seemed to satisfy all my needs this may be the reason i don t know the answer to this question the tachometer has a sticker right on it that says for the first miles do not go over rpm s and for the next miles don t go over referred to as the break in period if you didn t know well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit any information that any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated just send the reply to my account or if you d like back to the net thank you very much for taking the time to read reply to this chris melching go the speed limit as long as your not at the salt flats you arn t gonna frag yer ride i wouldn t ride the dod minimum until it had miles on it but hell i do that on a good weekend dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re dogs speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote let fido have yer left arm as he bites it bring your right forearm down hard on the back of his neck while bushing back and up with the left arm in fido s mouth this will be followed by a dull crack and one limp dog total cost to you a couple of holes in your left arm if you arn t wearing leather so how does aerostitch hold up with this procedure i m ordering mine monday may and i m happy about it too mike mike mitten gnome pd org emory pd org gnome ama dod irony is the spice of life bianchi backstreet suzuki gs gl the revolution will not be televised
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in david gibbs replies just in case the original poster was looking for a serious answer i ll supply one yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to i guess i was semi serious without using my hands i lean and the bike turns when leaning a torque is applied at a deg angle to the front wheel s axle just as in countersteering however this torque is also about deg from the axis of the steering head instead of making the bike lean gyroscopic effect makes the bars turn but i don t remember which way rick oh yeah i tried this in the driveway on the centestand as suggested somewhere else but it doesn t seem to work the same rick clarke clarke bdrc bd com ama something something
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes flaming tutorial for the novice another thing to consider is that like mexican food a lot of folks mistake heat for quality subtle references to various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words or the caps lock key and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example is likely to insure that some small part of your flame will become immortal zounds there s a blast from the past indeed i d nearly forgotten about the strategic significance of strabismic in r m lore it s really good to see it proudly displayed again although i m sure by now that its carbs are spooge o rama from long disuse gosh i m tingling all over chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	low powered bikes scooters does anybody share my opinion that in big city traffic a bike can be so low powered that for example it cant accelerate out of trouble when necessary the screwed down versions of bikes sold on the german market with the different classes of liscence seems to make a lot of middle aged men putt putt around on km hr maschines that are constantle getting in the way of real traffic does anybody else have opinions on this topic snuffy email snuffy zelator in berlin de ronald j bartle ron is looking for new work berlin voice but i do rent rooms again fax
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions an even better strategy is to leave less of a buffer between you and the car in front but enough to manuver around it keep the bike in st gear with the clutch handle squeezed in how s that for engaged disengaged until there are two cars stopped behind you when the next bdi cager comes screaching in simply ride up along side of the car in front of you you don t need to panic and do it or you will pop the clutch and stall the engine do is smoothly just rapidly the cage in front of you will provide much better protection than anything else particularly empty road ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes one yip and he veered away never to chase me again neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article shaman wv tek com robd orca wv tek com writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you really expect a cop to answer these honestly first you gotta expect a cop to be honest that s another story yeah everybody knows cops always lie and the people they deal with day in and day out always tell the truth no sir occifer sir i wazznut drinking tonight i was just playing around back there no sir i wasn t speeding i was realy only going xxmph it was that guy next to me didn t ya see him come on stereotyping cops is no better than those that stereo type us what say we try to show the same open mind to those around us as we would ask for ourselves i know its a stretch but its worth a try my reason for saying that was cause i if i were a cop wouldn t go out of my way to tell people how to break the law would you the part about honesty was a joke sorta obviously people have had bad experiences with cops lying obviously nobody s perfect and nobody always tells the truth about everything or are you god andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well i watched the daytona race on tnn boy for the people who saw it was the yamaha a lot faster than the kawi or what on the last stretch the yami took of and left the kawi in the dust i am a kawi rider and am totaly disappointed in the kawi lawson was on the yamaha not taking anything away from russel but well jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in article c y t la ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in r pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes andy when are you ever going to get it straight all yanks are self satisfied gits it s the canadians that are parochial ostriches no the yanks are we are are midway through our insipid invasion of florida and they aren t even aware of it yet typical their first attempt at foriegn policy adventurism and no one even notices canadians they can even make balkanization boring michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	locks and security was re yamaha locks this is maybe not a pet peeve but definitely a playmate peeve in article c uxrp f news cis umn edu wfk lynx spa umn edu bill ketzeback writes any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy to break into if the person has the proper supplies and or motivation minutes and your bike is gone i would be glad to explain but i dont want to contribute to any unlawful activities does this make anyone s skeptic alarm tm go off no offense bill i don t mean to say that you re not being straight but i wonder how you know about this have you actually every used your secret method to break all the different kinds of bike locks or are you taking someone s word for it the fact is it is unlikely that someone reading anything here is going to go into a successful bike stealing business because they read anything in rec motorcycles so please tell us what you are talking about we can t even protect against an assault or discuss methods if you don t come out with it see i have heard the ones about the pipes and the liquid nitrogen and the cordless dremel tools and a bunch of other ones the most plausable method i am not a bike thief so i really don t know for certain is just to put a rod through each wheel and use four guys to just lift the bike into a truck this works because most people don t lock their bikes to anything since that method is so childishly easy i figure a nice visible chain or cable locking the bike to something is likely to make a lazy thief go on to the next bike hey finally an advantage to the weight and high cg of the concours especially since i have a bike that i would hate to see ripped off by such a trival tactic warning no lock alone is a safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need to be a locksmith or a lock picker to walk away with your property i personally think motion alarms in combination to a lock of this type is the way to go if in fact you are that concerned what tactic are you referring to if we don t know what you are talking about we can t very well guard against it can we for my money literally i rely on a combination of a motion detector alarm with pager when i m out of earshot of the bike in a questionable area c c insurance and i try to park in obvious visible areas with lots of people about see if someone just plays with the bike without intention of stealing it at least some eyes are on it and if they get too rambunctious they ll set off the alarm that s for a nice bike for a ratbike the trick is to always keep its actual value well below blue book so that it looks so crappy nobody would want to steal it and even if they were stupid enough to you would make a profit on the deal seriously if i for instance need to go on a business trip for a week and sadly have to leave the bikes sitting they both get a shitty looking but useable cover locked on and both bikes locked to each other and a curb bumper in the parking lot under the light i usually rig the cable locks i use aircraft cable so that if anyone pulls on either bike or the cable joining them the concours alarm goes off and i have a friend come buy every day to have a look and make sure they re still there the only thing i have ever had stolen was a cover and that was over winter storage with the battery out of the bike and thus no alarm oh put your own eyelets into the cover for the locks to pass through and place them so that they have to absolutely destroy the cover to get it off that s the best that i can think of most of the locks i see people put on bikes look well not too mechanically sound i like abus since i have personally removed master locks from lockers with my boot dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu wrote bdc driver nearly rams back of innocent biker i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions glad to hear that the bozo managed to stop i ve only been riding for about two years but here are my rules for traffic light survival i try to never stop just over a hill behind a car if i have to stop in such a location i pull almost completely next to the car in front of me if i m the only one ie no car in front i turn the bike somewhat sideways across the lane to increase my visibility to any oncoming vehicle make sure to keep your taillight visible to traffic though note my bike is bright white turning sideways on a black bike might not be as beneficial on a flat road i stop with a bit of room ahead of me usually about two or three bike lengths this will hopefully give me room to pull forward and to the side as a car approaches if you are the last in a line of vehicles watch your mirrors constantly if you see a vehicle approaching and can t see any evidence to indicate that he she is slowing down get out of the way now flicker your brake light if i m the last vehicle in line i will pull and release the brake as a car approaches from behind noticed the car by watching my mirrors of course i vary the speed of the flicker hoping to make the cager notice that there s something in the lane ahead of him now with all that said it s the situation where you are first in line that i feel most defenseless if you re first in line your forward escape route is seriously limited you can only move forward to the extent that you don t enter the intersection i leave some room behind the stop line although around here the light activators are always right up next to the stop line and watch the mirrors i think i ve decided that hopping off the bike might be the best way out of this situation any other ideas for being first in line with no traffic directly behind you rob rob griffiths erasure shonalaing wildswans b s u judybats rem smiths robg apple com faa certified cloud basher i wanna drive the zamboni
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other while on my bike i wave to anyone who looks sort of like the small town or wide open spaces type thing that someone from louisiana mentioned like when i m in arkansas or helena mt kids are especially fun both genders watch it cliff in the cage i usually wave to bikers they usually don t wave back my wife thinks it s strange but i don t care jim bessette james bessette att com
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes one yip and he veered away never to chase me again nice ridin tex i use the california dmv recommended technique slow as you aproach said dog and wick it up as you pass i ve often contemplated putting the boot in said dog s muzzle as i open the throttle but have never tried that i figgure the impact would unballance me and i d dump the bike a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks on one occasion i was attacked by a pack of four dogs at once while peddaling up a steep hill i lost my right sock but no blood i complained to the local animal control department after complaining to the owner of the dogs to no affect about the dogs no more dogs no more attacks the telephone worked much better than the tire pump eric bong dod fz fzr vfr
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride isn t that one of those self evident things like how do you decide that you re out of gas i have never experienced wind so severe it physically precluded operation of a motorcycle it s more a matter of deciding whether the aggravation is more trouble than it s worth this of course depends entirely on your own particular circumstances and personal disposition michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of while not mentioning hitler or koresh weighs in your favor you also neglected to mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing to consider is or centerstands or weasel squeezers or later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes nice ridin tex i use the california dmv recommended technique slow as you aproach said dog and wick it up as you pass i ve often this must be the standard strategy that is taught cuz that s what they told me to do in my illinois msf class it works well only you don t get the satisfaction of kicking the shit out of some rabid hell beast alan
rec.motorcycles	kawi kz partial engine disassembly my kawasaki kz l has millimetres of play on the gearchange pedal axle in other words i can move the axle sideways up and down for few millimetres to each direction this doesn t bother me when riding but i guess fixing it wouldn t hurt last summer i took the bike to a shop to have the valves adjusted and the mechanic mentioned that it should be an easy job all i would have to do is to remove the front sprocket cover and replace a bushing or a seal that i would find there well upon a closer inspection i discovered that the gearchange axle doesn t even run through the sprocket cover it seems that in addition to removing the cover i would have at least to remove the sprocket and then the cover that is behind the sprocket question would removing this small cover from the left side of the engine enable me to lay my hands on that bushing seal don t know the exact term in english sorry question has anybody done this disassembly job for this or some other purpose does the oil for example stay inside the engine thanks teppo nieminen dod zoo mc helsinki finland
rec.motorcycles	what do i do with old gasoline help i have a cl which i stopped riding about years ago i upgraded to an sabre i parked it in the corner of my parking lot and planned on draining the gas spraying oil in the tank etc to get it ready to store well after a lot of procrastination all i ended up doing was throwing a tarp on it well now i have to move and want to clean up the i tried starting it with someone else s battery and had no luck my first guess is that it is the gas and so i plan on draining it and replacing it with new gas i can only pray that i didn t trash the carbeurators the question is what do i do with this old gas i am not going to run it in my sabre and i think that there is enough that i don t want to burn it campus police don t think too kindly about bonfires dumping it isn t a great idea thanks for any ideas george heinz win the question what does this c code do no fair compiling it int a main z p q r for p q p p a p for z z q r time r q q q q p p p p q a p q a p a p q q q for q printf q c c n a q
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc my experience is when they pound their fists on your back it means slow down seriously concentrate on being very smooth and you will make her experience much more enjoyable even a normal upshift causes your passenger to bob so i ease off the throttle before pulling in the clutch to eliminate this it s more work but your passenger will appreciate it also i ve found that using more rear brake than normal helps keep the bike from diving as much during routine stops which makes it much easier for the passenger to hang on if you re going sport riding have the passenger reach around you and brace themselves against the tank so you don t have to bear both your weights with your arms again your bike will dive less too paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh an attitude when he was stopped speaking as a guy who recieved a verbal warning for mph in a i just have to laugh hey dan some potentially cool story stuff here do share the details i never get a break probably most of us don t either so please enlighten and enliven and let us live vicariously waitin for that story erc grandrapids mi usa vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i hate pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs thats pretty hard since cb customs weren t introduced until if you find a pre one hold onto it it will be worth big bucks some day what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough mine has comstar wheels methinks you need to do your homework better my employer has no idea what i m talking about and obviously neither do you keith schauer texas instruments plain o texas cb custom dod in an insane society the sane man must appear insane ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between how dare you make such an accusation accusation i thought it was a recommendation i mean i did grow up there i oughta know if we wern t so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end i might just come up that and have a talk wit you b bring the truck and about pounds of crawfish and we ll talk ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it oh bill you are so full of shit that s the stupidest thing i ve ever heard obmoto i happened to miss the discussion of deltabox frames if there was one because i actually needed to get some work done last week so if anybody would care to repeat what got said since i was the guy who asked and i m still ignorant could you email me thanks ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of while not mentioning hitler or koresh weighs in your favor you also neglected to mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing to consider is that like mexican food a lot of folks mistake heat for quality subtle references to various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words or the caps lock key and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example is likely to insure that some small part of your flame will become immortal blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com aw c mon the serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish i personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames the first does trade quality in the sense you mention for heat this has a certain surprise value and if done correctly which i contend was done above is reasonably entertaining while it is true that the flame i posted does not mention anyone s habitual velocity friends dinner or entertainment it says what it needs to with the appropriate flair and it is short the weakness of this type of flame is actually that it can easily be taken too far at which point it becomes trite and boring witness the infante thread recently the other type of flame which you seem to be glorifying above has a few weaknesses as well in the first place it can get verbose and tedious in the extreme particularly if the reader does not already strongly identify with one side or the other in the second discussing someone s personal qualities habits and so forth can quickly become libelous or is that slanderous i can never remember the difference this leads to a proliferation of lawyers which is widely regarded as a bad thing finally introducing polysyllabic words is problematic i can t haul my big dic around on my bike and it would be bad form to use a word which actually turned out to have a meaning especially one which ran counter to my use and flamage in general in summary blaine your score for that flame is incorrect while it may be the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable you also probably couldn t outrun a tennis ball with a flatulent dog stapled to your posterior and i ll bet you and your motorcycle lean to the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	are other riders welcome to join group when riding in a group generally speaking do most people mind when another rider tags along i had the distinct feeling i may not have been welcome when i tagged along with a group last weekend jon faults are like car headlights those of others seem more glaring than our own
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article r c k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this me too for chihuahua s the police and the military don t train dobermans and shephards and use them as weapons because they are so easy for the average joe to defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth so effective some of yours are named for him he has ir vision better hearing and better smell than you do and most likely faster reflexes you re on a motorcycle he s on paws roll on and blow him off he doesn t even have net access oh bull pucky ed they use dogs because a many people are scared shitless of them and b because of the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner in attendance the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force oh horse puckey without their cop partner in attendance they are less likely to be controllable without the use of force which would kill the dog those teeth aren t very much good with an arm shoved into the back of the animals throat and held there and the neck is not o k so you ve disabled the dog s mouth and given up use of your arm to do so how bout them front and read paws and the fact that to plug up that mouth you ve given the dog the advantage of balance espcially strong neither are the leg joints which can be easily snapped or the skull easily crushed on even the largest dogs have you ever tried to snap leg or crush the skull of a dog without use of hardened instruments such as a baseball bat without the use of both arms and full cooperation of the beastie involved it s not that easy oh but wait you ve got your arm shoved in the dogs mouth you lose your advice is correct but a dog is still no match for a trained human in a fight oh now you qualify you earlier statement by saying a trained human sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages most people here have not been trained to deal with a dog that wants to maul you get a clue regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person steve mansfield i was told theres a miracle for each day that i try i was smm uunet uu net told there s new love that born for each one that has died suzuki gs e i was told there ll be no one to call on when i feel alone dod and afraid i was told if you dream of the next world you ll find yourself swimming in a lake of fire dream theater metropolis part i the miracle and the sleeper
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes on a long ride with my ex girlfriend nancy i would notice her drifting off every so often i swore off taking passengers over ten years ago but i recall sturgis getting some strange looks because my passenger was reading a book she was so engrossed that she didn t even notice when we hit a roadkill to make the hit of the day with the riders behind us john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot in article c th w o csi compuserve com nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes hi folks i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know thanks nathan nice litle bike i loved riding my brother in law s dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks to follow up i had a bad experience w a krypto lock too last year i bought a krypto cable ii x long something like that that by all standards seemed like a decent piece until i used it anyway before i ever used it for security purposes i used it for entertainment minds out of the gutter please which is to say that i sat fiddling w it while watching tv the night i got it after three minutes of mindless fiddling of course it was mindless remember i was watching tv the entire tumbler mechanism came out on the key not unlike that old georgie porgie nursery rhyme this left a very empty cylinder and a very non secure read swingin in the breeze cable lock kinda makes me wonder about any flat key style lock one yank w a slide hammer and viola i m making an insurance claim anyone else have a similar experience w the kryptos not bike theft erc
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though
rec.motorcycles	cager antics on the football field there was an article in one of the u k dailies this week about a soccer goalkeeper who had to be carried off the field after a collision with a ford sierra cage seems the cage driver wanted to turn around but needed to drive onto the pitch to do this so he waited till the ball and most of the players were up the other end unfortunately as soon as he started his manouvre someone booted the ball back down the pitch the goalkeeper ran backwards towards his goal straight into the cage
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste bored minds wanta know bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion don t find out if she has to pee by scaring it out of her don t armorall the seat just before her first ride even if you think you will need its urine proofing qualities henry prange biker renal physiologist physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the four tenets of all major religions i am right you are wrong hence you deserve to be punished by me
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article apr locus com dana lando la locus com dana h myers writes in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid a squid is the guy i saw back in december on cool degree morning on my way to work he was wearing knee length pants light jacket no gloves though he was going considerably slower than dod nominal a poser squid was the guy i saw yesterday on my way home similar attire as above sans jacket it is april in texas ya know but he is riding down the freeway left hand on his side kinda robinhoodlike with his body turned slightly left brings a whole new meaning to the term poser
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion a few random thoughts on riding with a passenger there s no substitute for a bike with sufficient power having taken passengers very occasionally on the small etc bikes i used to ride in the uk it was hard i m now riding a gs and that s great even moving from my freinds gsx i was riding recently this may be due in part to the fact that neither i nor my regular passengers are particularly slimline i always tell passengers stay in line with the bike on corners that makes their movements predictable my regular passengers both tend to hold either the rack or nothing at all i don t really like having a passenger hold onto me except for short periods again that may be biased by the fact that i ve had a couple of new passengers a friend recently for her first time on a bike who hold on to me real tight making any kind of maneuvering difficult i ve also discovered that on longer trips i prefer a passenger who moves and shifts their weight a bit i recently took a work collegue to a meeting about a hour ride and he sat totally still the whole way which left me also sitting very still and getting a sore back we have a code system for turns stop and for i need to shift position chris seabrook fujitsu open systems solutions inc phone x hollis street emeryville ca usa fax dod per saltire gules and or a sun counterchanged
rec.motorcycles	hawk gt new seat review unable to stand the pain anymore my wife bought the corbin gunfighter and lady with passenger backrest for my hawk gt it came with no instructions but it came weeks earlier than they said it would installation would have been very easy but the seat fastening hardware was apparently always on the wrong sides with the stock seat it never was easy to put on once i figured that out the new seat went on the first try the passenger backrest though does not fit as i thought it might the supplied screw to set the backrest angle does not fit and i have not yet found a suitable hard sae grade or perhaps bolt that fits there is a a soft bolt in there now just don t lean back the driver s section of the seat is a bit wider seems comfortable enough but then again i put about miles on the stock seat without a thought the passenger s section has about times the volume of foam that the stock seat has and from my short test it seems much more comfortable the backrest helps a bit but i ve not has enough time to really test it the backrest also comes with a small pocket its now more difficult to swing my leg up over the taller seat if i go on the three notch ride soon dixville pinkham smugglers i ll give a more complete report but in general it seems like an improvement frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin x wakefield ma outhouse frank contex com x
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car i ve caught myself doing it while on my bicycle does that count dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re dogs charles parr parr acs ucalgary ca wrote oh bull pucky ed they use dogs because a many people are scared shitless of them and b because of the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner in attendance the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force one of the things that police dogs are used for is to take the bullet instead of the human police officer as charles said many people are scared of dogs and will panic when one goes on attack they will then turn their weapon on the dog and this allows the police officer to take control your advice is correct but a dog is still no match for a trained human in a fight a single person vs a single dog in a face to face confrontation should really be no contest the dog is no match for a human willing to fight multiple dogs is a different story bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	dod pins not hi there kids and kidlets it your ol pal the kotpm keeper of the pin money i ve got good new and bad news good news i got laid er the pins will be coming to use the computer software phrase real soon now bad news right after we placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing we got in under the wire with an order of or so pins but as a result of the low number of pins we were relegated to the we ll get to it in between other runs bin as a result it seems that it may be another or weeks until your beloved geeky is guiding you along the blacktop and we thought madonnas on the dashboard were foolish hmmm now if that were madonna sitting on my dashboard that could be dangerous hell i m tough so please continue to be patient as soon as they arrive i ll post the grand announcement and rush our messiah on his way directly to your abode in the meantime if you need revised versions of the holy word of geeky please send cash or money order no cod s to ranch apocalyp er ashram geeky cyberspace place i m off to msf class hope it s not too boring my wife made me go with her michael menard
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend to compose fair piece of the population bein the ones that regard bikers as a loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble sure you didn t rape and pillage it s a relief to know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out of hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking i should say oh i m sorry i just noticed that you left mucho bucks as in money nevermind my criticism i was out of line i forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks as in money their behavior is permissable perhaps even justified keep in mind that themfolks are the ones that could give a when a biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don t respect our rights on the roads because we do not respect theirs all the rest of the time need i continue so continue to wear your stigma as a badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect of their values on yours remember that it was probably the behavior of self righteous wusses like myself that kept them at bay for this long enjoy erc dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips mark bergman bergman panix com wrote to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy i mean while they are off are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips do they really make a difference during the winter i just got a k and had the heated grips installed as far as i can tell the grips look and feel the same as the standard grips they are not soft last weekend i did a mile round trip and got to a point where it was in the s and raining those heated grips were great i ve only had the bike a month and the heated grips are already one of my favorite features on the bike bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other arturo informix com arturo vega wrote maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car sure it has caused my wife to conclude that i am totally insane not just partially usually i just lift the left hand off the wheel and wave thru the windshield damn near the same motion as on the bike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers jeq lachman com jonathan e quist wrote in article qmgg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime that s why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes anyone who witnesses a crime can do so go to the highway patrol and explain the situation give them a description of the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute ie search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign it it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through if contested you will have to appear in court to prosecute your word will not carry the same weight as a cop s and indeed the advice i got from a police officer when i had my close call was that without additional impartial witnesses it would be my word vs the other driver s and that it was up to me to decide whether the time and inconvenience to me was worth the time and inconvenience to the other driver and also whether any positive effect would result beyond making me feel better my worth i did this once bdi ladycager in a town car passed me on the right on a two lane road i memorized her license plate this in the days before i carried pen and paper in my tankbag and went to the local police station cops filled out the ticket i signed it she paid it tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag i think the only thing to watch for is the number of attachment straps most come with and some with i have a bagman strap tankbag and because the rear of the tank is so narrow the fit is not optimal mark castle rock co
rec.motorcycles	re dogs howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes i m a biker and a dog lover no wonder bikers have such a horrid reputation in dog we thrust
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere wrote i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks um would you mind telling us what state municipality you live in there are different laws in different places you know tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re hawk gt new seat review i too put a corbin seat on my hawk i got the solo seat which could carry a passenger for a short distance and it is better than the stock seat no longer does my voice squeak after the ride to work rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding it s exactly as dangerous as it looks you re hard to see and have little protection keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there we deal with it because it s fun but staying alive takes a conscious effort i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada thanks jody i can t say i ve ever seen it summed up so succinctly before i might only add two things stupid road design or poor at least and we deal with it for the fun and brotherhood we share with others who take their lives in their hads to feel the wind in their hair imho binger binger is binger hsh com is there really such a thing as a welcome to the attitude express corporate opinion if so maybe now get out my boss will let me express it
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes newsgroups rec motorcycles path usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov lerc nasa gov news uakron edu malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re dogs message id apr acs ucalgary ca date tue apr gmt references ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host acs acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages this was a recent discussion on rec martial arts humans definitely don t have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting of one sort or another ed dod
rec.motorcycles	re newbie yes matt dear newbie best advice is read here foe a few days this is your best source of info kinda makes me glad that i discovered r m well after i got into riding could i have possibly sounded like that otherwise eesh btw matt despite the insults you are destined to face great move on taking the msf course it will save your butt good luck erc dod
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks hi i m not sure what the other guy can t track down his post for his name was talking about when he made the claim that cobralinks are not adjustable they are there s a space between each link where the teeth of the locking head notch in thus each link is a possible locking point also and this is not applicable to hard core thieves who cart around liquid nitrogen and oxy acetylene torches the cobralinks look a lot more effective than kryptonite cable locks imho and i think the initial appearance effect is more relevant to bored joyriders nominally adept at cracking unsecured bike deterrence as long as the lock is nominally functional finally i notice that when i ride with my leathers harness boots and the cobralinks slung across like a bandolier btw i ve crashed in the rain dressed like this and the lock didn t pulverize any vertebrae cagers give me a much wider berth don t hassle me and tend to avoid any potentially inflammatory action at stoplights i love my cobralinks almost as much as i love my pre s honda dinosaur i think i have a pavlovian drool reflex i put the lock on i e on my body and i can feel the bike already shaking away my first post what did i do wrong sang dod cx p s any other cx owners out there please e mail me got questions about the weird handling on my bike the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr microsoft com chrispi microsoft com chris pirih writes generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around so it s easy to tell when they re waving and doders are easily recognized by their own special wave pay attention and i ll tell you how to do it hold your left hand out in front of you fingers straight but apart like a vase you may also use your right hand if you have a throttle lock or are stopped bring your fingertips and thumb together touch and open back to the starting position while you are doing this move your hand slowly to the left do it gracefully and with a waving motion you are now imitating a squid propelling itself about underwater probably in search of food drink squids of the appropriate sexual orientation or other squids to go riding with lissa shoun netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion because riding a passenger doesn t really depend on the type of bike the things you want a passenger to do not do is the same ergo if he s asking advice i reasoned he doesn t have much practice period if you say he does fine i still wouldn t take the uninitiated up a road that s all switch backs and reverse center uncrowned roadway not to mention the bdcs and squids who will also be on that particular road he asked for advice and even though it wasn t what he meant i still consider it some of the best i ve read lee
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk ivan d reid on the apr pst wibbled in article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when even the seagulls are walking ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod when you can make no headway into the wind when you hear a dull booming noise after going down hill with the wind behind you and you re wfo be very careful during the above as all the controls will have the opposite effect nick the mach biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks apr gillian e runcie writes being a mere female i have often found i can t really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them if somebody cuts you up just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to replace gillian dear gillian that is such a wickedly cool idea why didn t i think of it however here in canada the aerials antenna are usually near the driver or passenger areas and i would surely be seen but i ll give it a try anyway thanks for the first truely useable piece of information i have heard in a long time and you are by no means a mere female as this way at getting back takes real guts to do mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re dogs car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages this was a recent discussion on rec martial arts humans definitely don t have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting of one sort or another ed dod being related to former trainers i have come to know that humans do have all the advantages well at least one anyway it is a little known fact that a dog will involuntarily regurgitate and release an object that is too large to swallow i was told that if i were ever attacked by a dog i should ball my hand in a fist and force it down the dog s throat the dog would naturally gag and release and become momentarily disoriented this commonly happens to humans when we go to a doctor and have our throats examined proof positive in the time during the dog s disorientation the next move would be to wrap an arm about the dog throat in a choke hold manner and constrict with all your might until the dog lapses into unconsciousness from lack of oxygen and halting blood flow finally run like the wind to get away from the local area should the dog get up again and be really pissed ooooooopsssss for a second there i thought i was in rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog and not rec motorcycles till next time mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in response to jerry lotto s post about not putting your helmet on your mirror or else risk damaging the padding from the inside one of the major causes of mirror breakage is impact with the pavement laws mandating that all mirrors be protected by helmets might be in order but seriously one place to put a helmet is on a preferably clean footpeg hanging from the chin guard away from any hot pipes ed dod
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though can you say expensive tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc in article c x vh in inform co nz dev inform co nz michael seales writes in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc sure they are here we can buy gsxr cbr fzr the prob is that you re wrong newbie here i just got off the phone with a salesman that showed by newbieness if i remember what he said correctly gsxr no such thing cbr no its cb fzr no such thing most sport bikes don t have versions bs
rec.motorcycles	volvo attack i was privelged enough to experience my first volvo attack this weekend i was last in a line of traffic that was about vehicles long riding down rt in groton ma at the side of the road sitting off on the shoulder was the killer volvo in question no brake lights no turn signal nothing we were doing about mph and i was following the cage in front of me about sec back well as said cage passes the volvo the brain dead idiot tm behind the wheel decides that she doesn t need to wait for me to pass also and turns out perpendicular across both lanes of traffic so that she can turn around so i get on the brakes in a effort to not t bone it and the horn in an effort to wake the bdi up as she finishes the turn she looks up at me with a completely blank uncomprehending stare where can i get rocket launchers for the vfr dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering is countersteering like benchracing only with a taller seat so your feet aren t on the floor rick now while i wouldn t recommend doing this while moving maybe mike beaverton can complain to you awhile you might not want to countersteer if you re just sitting in the driveway sounds of rick falling off bike muttering damn coulda sworn that s how they told me in the msf course andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re bike for sale in ma usa in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears writes in article apr zorro tyngsboro ma us jd zorro tyngsboro ma us jeff derienzo writes i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike well that was pretty uncalled for no smile is our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo so you d sell your bike and let her ride around while you have to stay home with the kids geez that s a tough choice andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	two beemer questions r gs hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion a little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence okay here are my questions any recommendations for a home made fairing i d like to keep the wind off my chest and perhaps my helmet for comfort at highway speeds mph yet don t want to a screw up the stability or b block my vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings i d like to make it myself out of plexiglas i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm this is embarassing i m having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning i invariably flood the carbs then go in and read a section of the paper and then she starts right up is this a zen thing the hayne s manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol any particular brands of gas that are best additives thanks b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable silly boy you read the rest of that jibberish go back and read rule so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head ok for the record spike is jointly owned the registration says or uhhh what does the title say beth beth brought the ad to my attention i d been half heartedly lusting after an sr for years i had successfully avioded buying it by rationalizing that i didn t need to spend the on it then beth piped up with i ll pay for half of it i was beaten i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste watch it buddy both of those are fine rides beth loves riding pillion on the connie true the ol sport isn t her cup of tea she can t get it off of the side stand but she agrees that it s a very fine ride bored minds wanta know bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod i ll buy that i ll even loan you a quarter to buy a clue concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago yep i did one yesterday on my shaftie vision i should mention that i had a pillon that helped rotate the bike over the wheelie was the result of a necessarily agressive acceleration manouver through an intersection damn san antonio cagers tend to be really bad drivers however i have done one by myself it just takes a lot of pre clutch dump rev action just a passing comment johnny ennex eng utsa edu
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks one of my brothers had spent a lot of time practicing bizzare tricks on his megabuck micromass bike he said he once repelled a dog attack by picking up the rear of the bike and smacking the dog in the side of the head with the rear wheel the dog had no idea what hit him and he fled quite rapidly then again he could jump garbage cans without a ramp so i don t think i d care to try this one on a motorcycle the telephone worked much better than the tire pump that s almost unfair i ve never seen a dog that could use a phone blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs apr egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this me too for chihuahua s the police and the military don t train dobermans and shephards and use them as weapons because they are so easy for the average joe to defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth so effective some of yours are named for him he has ir vision better hearing and better smell than you do and most likely faster reflexes you re on a motorcycle he s on paws roll on and blow him off he doesn t even have net access ed green c mon ed a all things have their weak areas b what s ir idiot response dogs have more rods or cones i m not sure which than humans and this allows their eyes to collect more light in lower light conditions consequently their colour vision is almost non existant i mean if dogs had built in infra red vision the armed forces would be strapping them to missiles instead of paying a quarter million for ir guidance capabilities c my dog has net access mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport don t forget little girls my not quite year old daughter now excitedly points and says motorcycle every time she sees one go past i ve done my work of course it helps that one of her books shows sir topham hatt in a chaffeured side car rig i have to admit that i usually try to do so without the parental figure noticing i m afraid that the kid will get yelled at for associatign with anti societal types like us can you think of a better way to convince the kid that someday i ll ride one of those things is it a genetic thing with little boys or what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted to motorcycles of virtaully any sort often to the dismay of thier mothers no it s a genetic thing with little humans just don t let them touch hot pipes jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article ltgnt innfpq earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of analysis and hints deleted aw c mon the serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish nope flames should be interesting around here guns helmets are the wallpaper i personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames the first does trade quality in the sense you mention for heat this has a certain surprise value and if done correctly which i contend was done above is reasonably entertaining not everyone in rec motoland is so easily amused blaine as an elder has seen the superflamers at their peaks or depths if you prefer with that sort of incendiary backdrop awarding your faltering bic a was the purest act of charity while it is true that the flame i posted does not mention anyone s habitual velocity friends dinner or entertainment it says what it needs to with the appropriate flair and it is short the weakness of this type of flame is actually that it can easily be taken too far at which point it becomes trite and boring unless of course your audience has only seen several thousand similarly uninspiring attempts in this arena in that case the trite boring threshold tends to drift away from where you first set it as yours will eventually or not the other type of flame which you seem to be glorifying above blah blah blah in summary blaine your score for that flame is incorrect while it may be the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable until you can yank the flame out of blaine s internet port before he can io close it you are in no position to lecture him grasshopper you also probably couldn t outrun a tennis ball with a flatulent dog stapled to your posterior and i ll bet you and your motorcycle lean to the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too oh please yawn you re slipping further down the scale with each successive attempt it s so embarrassing to watch say you re not from waco are you chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe rider cactus org joe senner writes i know there s already a bmw mailing list but since it s an r bike only list and limited to the r r bikes as well i believe the list as chartered is geared toward r r gs pd st riders emphasizing the off road bikes but there are numerous people on the list with other bmw twins as well as well as the usual contingent of aspirants most all boxer talk is welcome the main list has about subscribers there is also a digest version which has about we run about to messges to day mostly technical with little chatter and no flames subscriptions can be had via e mail in the text of a message send the command subscribe to bmw gs request halfdome sf ca us for the main list and bmw gs digest request haldfome sf ca us for the digest version your from address will be used to determine where you will receive the mail it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in c t da l news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com jim brewer writes in article c kxal izc ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix this from someone riding a gsxr gutsy i was referring to their propensity to dent during a spill prespill they are of course a work of art jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re st ride frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro writes well i was wrong as i sat on the st both feet down all i could think was big then i put one foot up heavy came to mind very quickly with cindy on the back was she on the back hard to tell with seat three times as large as a hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out of control just idling on the side of the road it is heavy the is mid s dry that is the one major drawback of the st by rpm in second gear all the weight seemed to dissappear even can you say tourque monster the test drive sold me on the bike lot s of bite anywhere above in any gear on bike with miles on the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did you trythe abs tcs version cindy has no difficulty with speed rd gear th gear purring along in top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that my hawk lane changes were a new experience a big heft is required to move this thing responds well though no wallowing or complaint behind the fairing it was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was after market fairing windshield for raises the bubble inches above most heads but hurts the looks of the bike non trivial top gear car passing at mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the v sound reminds me of but it is pleasant this is the essence of the bike move the throttle and itr accelerates any gear anywhere anytime i frequently find myself at the dod min during a casual passing maneuver the jump on to caused me to be less than impressed with the brakes its a down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn a real squeeze is needed on the front binder this is a function of the weight you have to be aggresive with the brake squeze actually as tested by cycle world and an expert rider the st stopped faster then the comparable models from bmw and yamaha even with the extra weight and gas the section of we were on was tight but too urban the st works ok in this section but it shows its weight we went by the clam shack you must countersteer the st for every turn and movement short of the classic pothole wiggle just forget ever leaning into a turn again it must be countersteered into every turn and then responds nicely about half way through the onramp i yanked cindy s wrist our singal for hold on tight head check left time to find redline second gear gives a good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with a short shift into top on the way to we saw no cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now it had miles on it so it was ok tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time to wick it up i went until the buffeting was threating to pull us off the seat and stayed there when i was comfortable with the wind and the steering i looked down to find an indicated mph not bad for up touring faster then i ve ever gone i d hate to buy this bike after your short break in period to thread the st through the cars to the edge of the concrete pad out front heavy it took way too much effort for cindy and i to put the thing on the center stand i am sure that if i used the side stand the st would have been on its side within a minute not true the side stand is well designed for the weight and will hold the bike nicely on dirt i am able to easily get the bike up on the center stand just step down on the stand instead of pulling up on the bike my demo opinion heavy put it on a diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed i d buy on for about less than list just like it is too much for the bike as it is keep looking the left overs if available are going for i love mine and i haven t found a better value then the st for remember you get years unlimited mileage warranty
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article c u dl a v athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr i have a feeling that you are not the enemy there are without a doubt dickhead cops but there are at least as many dickhead bikers even here you know who you are i will certainly give you the same benefit of the doubt as any other biker here welcome i think i can speak for the entire dod in this hey guys free ride in georgia dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me if by quick wiggle to the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning to the left what is the input to the steering mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old shove shove well as many a bored bike tourer can tell you the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean say you want to turn left you push your body off to the left to do this you have to push against something and the only thing to push against is the ground through the bike well the apple guy wozniak or was that churchill says that the ground will push you right back so you pushed yourself off to the left by pushing on the ground to the right and the ground pushed back toward the left well that push is on both wheels the rear wheel doesn t care unless you have serious bearing problems except of course on the spagthorpe dragonfly which had the revolutionary countersteering contra shaft drive rear end but the front wheel has trail if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right hey there we are no hands counter steering dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list sorry had to take out tx motorcycles because my news server rejected it hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs you presumed you needed to split out a gs list by implication of your split a plain ol bmw list wouldn t meet the gs riders needs for the sake of not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw gs to just bmw would that make everybody happy i think you d get better participation this way and joe wouldn t have to burden his hesh
rec.motorcycles	re squids and dealers kevin l stell kstell cbnewsl cb att com wrote squids i felt embarassed at this point to be a motorcyclist i felt the eyes of those in cages witnessing this display then glancing over to the dealers lot and damning all those on two wheels needless to say my friend felt a little uncomfortable and we left did you express your embarrassment to the owner i don t blame you for being embarrassed but i would have let my feeling be known that the behaviour of their sales staff and apparent enjoyment of such behaviour just cost them a sale and all further sales i will now turn off my frustration and go ride peacefully to clear my anger i only hope that the cop who is following me home has an open mind and doesn t associate me with them sound good enjoy btw i can t afford a new bike who can merf
rec.motorcycles	re death of a stroke why did it die zebee johnstone zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au wrote now for those who have read this far why did it rev at idle like that is water in the fuel an acceptable reaason or were they having me on sound like the pilot circuit was say lean clogged i don t think water would cause a problem like this but apparently the oil pump is doing its job and there was plenty of oil why did it seize see above were you by chance coasting when it stuck on a two stroke you only have substantial lubrication when you are giving the bike gas if it was lean on the pilot that s why it stuck oh btw the motor had been rebuilt just before i left adelaide so had done about miles when it blew it was rebuilt because it had been seized at some time before we got it and it looked like that seizure had happened at low mileage because there were still hone marks in the bore the rebuild we did consisted of a total tear down new piston rings small end bearing and new gearbox bearings big end and rod judged ok any ideas folks you mentioned an aftermarket carb i deleted the text looks like to me that s where your problem is zebee johnstone dod you don t own an italian motorcycle o m merfman
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk i have never experienced wind so severe it physically precluded operation of a motorcycle it s more a matter of deciding whether the aggravation is more trouble than it s worth this of course depends entirely on your own particular circumstances and personal disposition and skill if you haven t done it before it can be dangerous it takes some getting used to read ed s list brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer wrote randy megatek com randy davis writes speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor lets just say it is dui here now ok it varies from state to state it has to do with operating a vehicle while there is greater than a given percentage of alcohol in your bloodstream can we drop this now and get back to asking ed green to getabike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great to me when i have a real bdi cager tailgating me i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong sometimes yes sometimes no bdi cagers usually move back then hyperagressive assholes just move closer something about testosterone stimulated behavior i think it s kinda like waving a red flag at a bull all in all if you can t move over and let the jerk by it s better than nothing tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc lets not forget st sports touring honda
rec.motorcycles	re windy days robert d castro rdc cunixf cc columbia edu writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride if you get blown over riding your bike down your drive at home then it s too windy to ride d p s check nearby trees for wind strength and see how badly they are being affected by the wind alan alan duncan dept of computer science ducati ss edinburgh university scotland s s
rec.motorcycles	moa members another letter to read in light of the last letter i posted from jeff brody concering the crap that is going on in the moa which some folks took not as dissemination of information that i received but as my own bad mouthing i thought that i would post this one which came to me yesterday this is from board member robert higdon to moa pres chich morse this is not my words o k guys april re cecil king s nominating statement dear chick we have a very serious problem with the election for president of the moa this year cecil king s nominating statement as it appeared in the owners news is words nearly twice as many as that is permitted by the by laws in pertinent part the rules state each candidate s biography and position statement shall be limited to a combined total of no more than words the nominating committe shall cut afafter the th word any biography and position statement exceeding this length obviously the nominationg committe was not up to the task had cecil s statement been cut as required it would have concluded approximately with the word undertiding sic in the second paragraph after the commencement of his position statement as a result cecil has obtained what i view as a grossly unfair advantage over the other candidates for president this does not just taint the election for that office it makes a mockery of the process i would appreciate your advising the board immediately what steps you intend to take to rectify this caricature of a fair election parenthetically in your private correspondence with others i would be most appreciative that when tou call me an asshole you remind the letter s recipient that the re publication of such a comment is almost guaranteed to have woeful consequences with kind regards i remain robert higdon o k moa ers you read it think for yourself i trust you do know who cecil king is and that he was editor befor don douglass and he is a pres candidate i let you draw your own conclusions regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw s have two wheels politically correct statement
rec.motorcycles	insuring a cbr f hey now i m having the roughest time getting a company to cover my new bike here are some details about her and me i m single riding with a clean record a homeowner a new rider accoring to most companies not a member of msf or ama yet she s a cbr f got miles got temp plates still one screamin bitch of a ride can you get me some ideas we can take them to private email to lower the noise on the net mrr po cwru edu is a good mail address i need to hear something soon so i can keep her on the road thanks in advance mark well weathered leather hot metal and oil the scented country air sunlight on chrome the blur of the landscape every nerve aware red barchetta straining the limits of machine and man
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t attract grundge like pj blue does i gave it the acid test a full day s worth of breaking in the quadracer s new paddle tires down at the sand dunes if there s anything wet stickey it will be coated with sand at the end of the day but the chain looked pretty clean as far as mail order goes if chaparral has it in stock and they can tell you if it s in stock or about how long it will take to back order it if it s not i usually get it in three days competition accessories always seems to take a week or two to deliver motorcycle accessory warehouse also takes a week or two and after trying to buy some boots from them last week i don t think they actually stock anything maw was about cheaper than chaparral on alpinestars tech boots but on monday i was hoping to get them by the end of the week so i asked maw a completely unreasonable question do you have them in stock the conversation went something like this i need to know if you have some boots in stock do you want to pay with visa or mastercard i want to know if you have them in stock well the computer doesn t show anything i d have to call the distributer to find out if we have them so do you have them or not don t you understand what i m saying i have to call our distributer to find out if we have them in stock or not uh right so can you do it yea call me back in an hour and ask for phil so an hour later phil isn t there but mike says he ll check and call him back in half an hour half an hour later mike isn t there either but he left a note that says they ll have them by the end of the month weeks away screw it the bucks isn t worth the hassle i called chaparral and asked if they had them in stock ooh alpinestars probably not they are hard to keep in stock but i ll check what size size let s see yes size in blue white gray white black i ll take the blacks this was about noon on monday they arrived thursday morning once again three days via ups ground i like chaparral i m not completely down on maw they often have lower prices but be prepared to wait oh and if anyone s in the market for sand tires and other atv stuff scorcher seems like a good outfit friendly fast had the tires i wanted in stock and were cheaper than chaparral too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes so take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames no brains and he can t spell either edu i hope you re not a student at duke you would be wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about ooooooh complaining about my spelling i m so hurt no i m not a student i m an alumnus and an employee so i can get my money back from these grubs bnr huh i hope you re not a permanent they d be wasting benefits on you pthptptphhph andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in article rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well i watched the daytona race on tnn boy for the people who saw it was the yamaha a lot faster than the kawi or what on the last stretch the yami took of and left the kawi in the dust i am a kawi rider and am totaly disappointed in the kawi it wasn t that the lawson s v h owo was faster if you watch the tape again russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking it doesn t matter what bike you have if you lose your drive your hosed the two bikes are almost identically fast check out the qualifying times
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes if i m riding i would far sooner have the pillion hanging on to the bike rather than me because i find that their weight can cause me to move and that can upset the balance of the bike most of the pillions i see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don t hang on to anything unless violent acceleration is taking place hmmmmn don t you ride with your sweetheart tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re two beemer questions r gs in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion not to start another shaft effect discussion but the twist you feel when revving sitting still is due to the larger fly wheels that the bmw r bikes maybe k s too dunno use if you whack the throttle at stop lights it ll really rock the bike over to the right snip snip i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm please post if you come to any conclusion on this i am thinking of putting a light on each cylinder guard on my r s and was wondering whether i was going to have to switch lights off every time i was under rpm kawi zephyr erik asphaug this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article r tm itu news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu writes in a previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i too have seen the miracle of maxima chain wax not only does it lube and stay where it s supposed to but i swear i can ride faster now yes not only does it lube your chain it makes you a better rider and more attractive to members of the opposing sex and smarter and works really well on my bike too tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article apr dsd es com bgardner bambam es com blaine gardner writes in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks i have a bayonet in the factory scabbard from a swedish mouser mounted to the handlebars of my zuki that blade and my long arms do quite well thank you dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh an attitude when he was stopped speaking as a guy who recieved a verbal warning for mph in a i just have to laugh in shreveport back when i was riding the purple water buffalo i jumped an intersection in front of a cop who was waiting for the light the side of the street he was on was hidden buy a building on the corner and i didn t see him till i was airborne in the middle of the intersection i was parked had my helment off and my liscence out before he turned the corner he chewed my ass out and let me go i will be the first to admit it was a very squidly thing to do jumping the intersection like that the cop should have nailed me i find that if you are polite respectfull and honest they will normaly let you get away with a lot of stuff p s the shock mounts folded up the next day i guess i deserved that dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re are other riders welcome to join group in article apr pacbell com jscosta srv pacbell com jon costa writes when riding in a group generally speaking do most people mind when another rider tags along i had the distinct feeling i may not have been welcome when i tagged along with a group last weekend yer welcome to ride with me and my friends any time just introduce your self at the earliest opportunity and say mind if i rid with you guys dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips i don t have the grips but have looked into getting them it s my understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard on the bikes k rs k lt etc it s also my understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself so if anything i would suspect it would reduce vibration by providing more bar end mass i don t see why they wouldn t work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that it might cause the foam to deteriorate or something hard to belive considering they do fine in the degree texas summers course i don t actually have them so you can save your flames joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re re windy days in article c xuqm dxu dcs ed ac uk amd dcs ed ac uk alan duncan writes robert d castro rdc cunixf cc columbia edu writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride handlebar mounted windshields on windy days are no fun at all it has been windy as hell down here for a week or so and it plays hell with the steering oh i still ride i just bitch a lot about it dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re it ain t for me in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i am confused like that s a surprise someone asked me for a copy of the faq via e mail as i am not the kotfaq i was wondering what the proper responce is you should post his her email request with proper attributes of course to the newsgroup the request then becomes a matter of rec moto public record and warrants the ceremonial gang faqing glad to help ride safe cliff weston dod seca ii tem this bike is in excellent condition i ve done all the work on it myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	re mail order response time i have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had to backorder something but they sent me a card to say it would be two weeks came in days or so always be satisfied with ca and in life rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org joe senner writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips i don t have the grips but have looked into getting them it s my understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard on the bikes k rs k lt etc it s also my understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself so if anything i would suspect it would reduce vibration by providing more bar end mass i don t see why they wouldn t work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that it might cause the foam to deteriorate or something hard to belive considering they do fine in the degree texas summers someone once sold heated motorcycle grips via mail order the were aftermarket replacement grips that had the heating elements mlded into the grip itself wires ran outside of the bars from the grips to a switch and finaly the battery cycle magazine tested them years ago and liked them dunno if they are still made might check with the snowmobile racers dod technician dr speed not student umop apisdn
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk a long time back months i think a similar question was asked a suggestion in addition to ed s list was to put your windward knee out away from the bike i tried it and it seems to help actually brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in article r nujinncti gap caltech edu ridgway cco caltech edu alex ridgway writes paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes my problem turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time gee i always figured that it was the loose screws on in the rider that were most likely to cause any problems did you check for that at the same time that is very true however screws have been loose on this rider for quite some time so they had been taken into account russian roulette is fun out of times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim valve seat wear tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mwallace nyx cs du edu mark wallace writes bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag i think the only thing to watch for is the number of attachment straps most come with and some with i have a bagman strap tankbag and because the rear of the tank is so narrow the fit is not optimal good point i d overlooked that the eclipse has a point mount at the rear and at the front and it s very stable on the fj i have seen some with harnesses that mount to the sides of the tank and that would be a real problem on the fj blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lemay netcom com laura lemay writes lotsa stuff deleted switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider hmmmm why does everyone on that side of the pond seem to want pillions to hang on to the rider rather than the grabrail because i m a guy and most of my pillions are female also the other reasons like having an idea where you passengers weight is it being a more comfortable position for the passenger and it being a more stable configuration all come into it as well holding the grab rail is a great idea only for braking when you don t want the pillion to slide forward into you otherwise i don t find it works well david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	re story respect in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes i just got back from the th annual southern california harley dealers association run to the colorado river city of lauglin nevada why is it that some people can t enjoy themselves without being assholes if you want to be treated with respect you need to treat others their property and their towns with respect several years ago i was at the annual fly in of the experimental aircraft association eaa near oshkosh wisconsin although approximately people were in attendance there was not a piece of litter anywhere everyone was considerate enough to place their trash where it belonged there s no problem in having fun raising hell etc but consideration and respect for others is critical we need to work with each other not against nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but at the right place and time please let s not trample over other s rights and then bitch because they don t treat us like gods michael menard you know i wasn t even going to respond to this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn t prepared for the vast number of people that showed up btw michael oatman is the right place time it s called a run maybe you didn t read my comment that they loved us and i m talking about the merchants and townspeople the merchants that didn t want us their shops were closed maybe i should have mentioned that when i left the trash was being picked up aluminum sells by a crew assigned to the task i think the bottom line here is do they want us back they do this action that went on at oatman is typical on a predominatly harley run it s innocent fun so since i enjoy typical harley fun at runs in your eyes that makes me an asshole i ve already admitted i m an asshole many times on the net all my friends are assholes too lyrics to a new song so you want a dime to call someone that cares it appears we have a difference of opinion maybe you should look at the big picture before you pass judgement on others th annual that should tell you something lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages look if you are worried about being attacked by a dog just carry some spot remover with you russian roulette is fun out of times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon by not being able to drive for a year it was close enough to jail and btw where the hell did i ask for sympathy i asked what to do about insurance not about my life fwiw if everyone was honest on this group i d others besides me that read this have had a dwi too andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs nowhere did i see you mention k bikes which being made by bmw are welcome on my list in fact you go out of your way to say most all boxer talk is welcome your list appears to cater to boxers that s great my list caters to bmw s without any restrictions like you have considering that the subscription count went to within hours of my initial post about the list which was made around pm just before i went to bed i d say that there is a need for a bmw list as opposed to just a gs boxer list my motivation for setting up the bmw list came from an earlier post of yours announcing your boxer list it didn t fit my needs ok we ve pissed on each other s list let s get back to the regular net noise and read our respective lists joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bonding with a caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes waving policeman happy policeman nice policeman has anyone else experienced this phenomenon or am i somehow the only one to have been blessed with a cop s good mood insert mild sarcasm alyn dod seca ii well not me however i wouldn t trade all the times i ve h h h h a close friend has been pulled over cussed and shouted at and finally let off with a verbal warning in exchange for a few waves smiles if you like but i m serious later art yes sir no sir sorry sir thank you sir arturo informix com
rec.motorcycles	re moa members another letter to read has anyone noticed that all this happened since chris perez was gifted with a membership anyone for rec motorcycles beemer club whiner i know this might get confused with k whiners but maybe there s a connection blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list hesh cup hp com chris steinbroner writes sorry had to take out tx motorcycles because my news server rejected it hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs you presumed you needed to split out a gs list by implication of your split a plain ol bmw list wouldn t meet the gs riders needs good point the list actually started out as an extension of my gs v fj shootout list which is why it got that name since inception however other boxer interested folks have joined and the conversation has not always been geared to gs pd st specific topics for the sake of not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw gs to just bmw would that make everybody happy when i raised the to expand or not to expand that is the question question on the list itself there were mixed feelings the list has always been open to anyone with a non bouncing from line and there has been general agreement that only boxer related stuff is appropriate almost all of the subscribers own r r gs st pd bikes although some r rt and rs owners are also on it at this point my main interest for the list is to preserve the peace and comraderie while at the same time providing as wide access as possible the list is fairly technical with how do i do this what kind of that should i get kinds of questions there has yet to be any non bmw bashing k bike bashing or any bmw mfg d after is a piece of shit bashing such posts are by consent of the governed proscribed if the simple name change would make a significant difference to the net boxer owners then i am not going to stand in the way of progress so hesh let me turn the question around have you or has anyone else not joined the list because you felt your boxer was excluded bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article c r x k m ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i have a large ol farting dog and have made a real effort at trying to train him but he still just flatulates at will don t feed it so much seriously first i would like to break him of this and then i ll worry about his chasing things if you can t you ve obviously waited too long or are not putting much effort into it my lb dog not always used to fart all the time by making her notice it of course the smell doesn t bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came to realize that she shoudln t do it at least not around me sort of like that scene in in the minister s study when the secretary lets one fly and the startled dog runs from the room the minister explains every time mrs soandso breaks wind we beat the dog jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article apr virginia edu cds k virginia edu christopher douglas saady writes there s also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and a video tape documentary on the hell s angels i found in a rental store once don t forget robert blake in electra glide in blue where else do you get to see a full dress harley playing with dirt bikes and if you re going to count smokey and the bandit then you darn well better include pee wee s big adventure jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in a previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i too have seen the miracle of maxima chain wax not only does it lube and stay where it s supposed to but i swear i can ride faster now yes not only does it lube your chain it makes you a better rider and more attractive to members of the opposing sex and smarter and dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in a previous article serafin epcot spdc ti com mike serafin says a poser squid was the guy i saw yesterday on my way home similar attire as above sans jacket it is april in texas ya know but he is riding down the amazing and i thought only california got april dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive as the owner of a v sabre shaftie i can answer from personal experience aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee chuck smythe dod
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head spike is owned by both tom and i we went s on the purchase price and have split costs of needed parts registration etc both names are on the pink slip i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste i am covered by insurance to ride the harley i d give it a go if i could work the clutch i can barely get the clutch lever to move using both hands while standing next to the bike ol sport is a very distinctive bike the concours is favorite of mine i ve pillioned an easy miles on that bike in the last year unfortunately my feet are a good off the ground once i m on her no way i could take her for a ride as pilot rather than pillion if i could fit on a concours i d buy one imho the best sport tourer made i m not too upset i had to settle for the ducati ss as my touring bike though bored minds wanta know so now you know beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions i ve only ever done it in an automatic i was sitting in my olds in the winter at a light when i heard screeching behind me i managed to dart into the left turn lane before the sliding jetta wound up half where i was and half in the parked car beside where i was i ve never had occasion to do it on a bike but i imagine that it would be even easier because you could slip beside the car in front giving a gander at the mirrors while at a light will give you time to get the clutch out smoothly when you notice trouble instead of waiting for the screeching i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in rec motorcycles egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs like non sudafed cold medicines jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha the sound of fresh rain run off splashing from the roof reminded me of the sound of urine splashing into a filthy texaco latrine jack handey
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in rec motorcycles rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when the bugs are splatting on the side of my helmet instead of the faceshield when semis are on their side in the downwind ditch when i can t see the road for all the tumbleweeds rolling past when the airborne sand gravel is sandblasting my paint job when all of the above is happening at once in the middle of wonderful wyldoming well it was gusting to mph cheers vlj
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions if you had been looking in your mirror you would have seen the guy coming before you heard the screeching tires when you re stopped at a light stop so that you re got space in front of you and a quick easy escape route between lanes into a crosswalk up a driveway somewhere if someone decides they want to plow into you keep the bike in first with the clutch in until at least a couple of cars are stopped behind you so you don t have to waste a second you don t have trying to get it in gear if you need to move watch your mirrors in that situation most of the hazards you are trying to avoid are coming from behind you sipde msf geek speak isn t just for when you re moving and you re less likely to panic and stall the bike if you ve got time to prepare before the guy s tires lock up behind you you still get the bejeezus scared out of you but it s more a feeling of quickly rising dread than a sudden jolt ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips orating with wild abandon prange nickel ucs indiana edu henry prange offers the grips on my gs are a wonderful thing in the winter and no problem in the summer vibration bmw s don t vibrate everyone knows that i d agree with henry the grips are really nice to have in winter and aren t noticably different from normal grips in summer my only complaint is that the low setting might as well be off this has been complained about by every reviewer official and unofficial that s ever talked about these grips the high setting is often too high for use with lightweight summer gloves when things just get a bit nippy but since low doesn t produce a noticable effect i end up turning the grips on and off to keep the temperature about right this generally isn t a problem when wearing thicker winter gloves when i asked the dealer if they could fix it i received a consoling pat on the back and their sincere apologies for the poor design actually i was told they worked just like they were suppose to vibration what s that i ride a bmw twin you can barely tell if the engine is fired up or not most of the time smoother than silk sheets ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable be careful that you do not have any weight of the helmet resting on the mirror it will depress the foam liner in the helmet that is not the kind of foam that bounces back like foam rubber its purpose in life is to absorb energy in an impact as it is compressed by your noggin if your mirror compresses it there is that much less energy absorbing capacity left to cushon your noggin in a crash i found the right handlebar to be a good spot if on the sidestand hang with the chinbar facing up balanced across the grip and brake lever such that the weight of the helmet doesn t compress any of the chinbar foam this is more challanging with an open face helmet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to so you really see no problem with banning them from places to which you don t want to go i have not heard or discussed with non motorcycling persons or read of any popular movement either in the country as a whole or in any of the states that is out to get motorcycles talk to somebody in the insurance industry particularly after a few drinks then talk to my mom no booze required one more thing if the public is misinformed and misunderstands as you state what are you and the others posting on this doing to correct the situation ever heard of the dod ever since i hit my teens i have found that there were terrible wrongs to right attitudes to adust blah blah blah fortunately i grew up nah you just became complacent that so long as your little quarter acre is safe you get your little tax deduction and no act of the government intrudes in too direct and obvious a way into your little day to day life you just don t give a shit ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article r g agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article quaq i d sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes don t you mean former motorcyclist no ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker i m sure there s a perfectly reasonable explanation yep ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article deh synoptics com noemi synoptics com noemi berry writes guess how you turn a horse look where you want to go and plan your turns and jumps the best riders give refined smooth inputs to the beast lots of maintenance leather looks cool sound familiar black ones look better none are truely indiginous to america although some of the finest are produced here gear is expensive and you never seem have enough of it volvos hit them only idiots intentionally rear up the front half off the ground just to look cool posers don t ride them in the rain they are dangerous on ice loud ones are annoying and too much chrome looks dumb yep sounds familiar ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique of countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through a corner well all the way through a decreasing radius corner anyway this is really the only thing we disagree on maybe we should agree to disagree ok but i m right the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place if that s the official line taught in those rider education classes you were refering to that also don t teach countersteering i have to question the quality of the classes the official line in msf curricula is as i described maximum braking is achieved by applying both brakes equally when the weight distribution is nominally even and both tires have equal normal forces and easing off on the rear to prevent locking it and increasing braking on the front as more traction is available to the front due to increased normal force due to weight shift the official line you have been taught seems ineffective on the face of it applying the rear brake after the front is not taking advantage of all the traction available to the rear at time and is halving the available braking power by using only the front at time saying brake until the tire just begins to slide is next to useless advice to a newbie he has to go out and slide the tire to find out where that is it also gives him zero information from which to develop a braking technique that changes as the braking and corresponding weight shift develop if you don t slide the tyre you have no way of knowing whether you ve achieved maximum braking or not i m not suggesting that you should always aim to brake as hard as you possibly can but if you want to find the limits of the machine you have to go beyond them not necessarily true chirping the tire indicates impending lockup on most surfaces and serves as a good guide to newbies to indicate maximum braking i agree that totally locking the front occasionally makes one a better rider but it is a manuver best saved for an experienced rider unless you have one of those outrigger bikes like code used to use in any case for maximum braking if as i suggested you aim to keep both wheels just on the point of sliding then you ll be doing exactly as you suggest true but from the point of view of how to best teach riding skills which is how this discussion started keep both wheels just on the point of sliding is nearly useless information you need to teach a technique or at least a strategy to achieve this ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering countersteering is a method for leaning the bike another method is leaning once leaned the bike turns all by itself ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake you may have been able to bounce the front up but not actually do a wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this is why a shaft bike should accelerate if it starts scraping in a corner laz
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes also nc recently last few years decided that due to the fact there are constantly people on the road drunk driving they will raise their awareness of it by making stricter laws and as such now i believe nc has the toughest laws for dwi while not necessarily increasing any amount of awareness or kills on the highways meaning it s only made a difference at sentencing automatic revocation of your license for a year i m not sure it s the toughtest law around but nc has absolutely no sense of humor with respect to driving laws anyway i think they put you in jail and sell your first child into slavery for passing a school bus a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from to it faces stiff opposition in the senate recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result for some bizarre reason nc is the only state where the governer has no veto power over legislation coming out of the state congress so his opinion on the matter is moot ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re story in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes i just got back from the th annual southern california harley dealers association run to the colorado river city of lauglin nevada aka the lauglin run i went there too all i can say is too much trash i hate the b the b can bite me
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion i ve never ridden pillion very much but recently had an excellent experience passengering with dave edmondson at pilot while in london i found that it upset the bike much less if i rode with the pilot that is if i looked over his shoulder and anticipated when i should hold on hard for braking or acceleration i tried to always look over the inside shoulder on corners and move as little as possible leaving dave to manage me and the bike as he normally would the bike and luggage hard acceleration can be quite unnerving as the feeling of being spit off the back is hard to fight similarly i held on to the grab handles tightly when dave needed to brake so as not to mash him to a pulp i m a lot bigger than he is reaching around him and pushing off the tank seemed like it would be very awkward and make it even harder for him to manage on the rare occasions when i carry a passenger myself i absolutely refuse to carry anyone who is not properly accoutered for riding that s helmet jacket gloves stout pants and shoes boots as a minimum it s not my responsibility to provide this gear but it s my responsibility to require it if they want to ride and i agree with an earlier poster if you ve not had much experience carrying a particular passenger and especially if you ve not carried many passengers before take a few gentler rides of some duration before you head off to a difficult road like mines mt hamilton that s a nasty place to find yourself in trouble godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell a ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things wg ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden no wrote can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean cb is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline cylinder engine frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hmmm my first bike a cb s was a single
rec.motorcycles	re squids and dealers in article c vxh auv cbnewsl cb att com kstell cbnewsl cb att com kevin l stell writes stuff chopped here is the part that concerned me the hg and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said hg members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those beasts at this point one decided to see how much rubber a katana could deposit in the drive squids i thought to myself but i was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged it to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion on another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot to quickly catch up the others followed making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt um you gotta understand these salesdroids as you call them they look at it this way burn lotsa tire make lotsa money i m sure s he knew how stupid the hg was would you seriously stop them from burning off a seasons worth of tire the squids probably would buy metzelers or some good low profile tire anyhow yep them droids sure a sneaky bastards regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it oh yeah all the time on a nice spring summer day i roll down the window and drive around looking for bikes when a bike motors by in the opposite direction i stick my arm out and hi em my arm feels like a million bucks when i m doing this a km h i do the same thing with cyclists the only problem with hi ing a cyclist is their always in the right hand lane i hafta roll down the other window and hi them on the back oh well i think they appreciate the thought regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot in article contex contex com frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro says the ft is fun i wanted to buy one but i waited years an bought a hawk instead friends owners of the former cycle shop on in andover bought one new but several years old cost him you should not pay too much for one i hear they can be fitted with the front end of a cc interceptor and thus have great brakes sounds like fun some dude on this forum has one thats all tricked out second hand bike warns that they are fine up until miles the ft is a good beginner s bike with a reasonable seating position enough power to get you up and around but not so much it ll scare the bejeebers out of you tips over well and easy to pick up don t ask simple maintenance i ve had mine for four or so years and haven t had any serious problems with it i bought it used for with about miles on it just last week someone in the neighborhood stopped by to ask me about it whether i thought it was a good beginner s bike is it comfortable and powerful enough blah blah blah seems he found one used for with about miles on it the reall trick mod i ve heard was to take the front end from a hurricane and slide it in this was from a guy who campaigns two ascots in sos racing he says they do pretty well too once you strip off the starter lights and other assorted street paraphernalia its a pretty fast and light bike andrew coll esv psuvm bitnet esv psuvm psu edu
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes if i m riding i would far sooner have the pillion hanging on to the bike rather than me because i find that their weight can cause me to move and that can upset the balance of the bike most of the pillions i see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don t hang on to anything unless violent acceleration is taking place hmmmmn don t you ride with your sweetheart only in my dreams
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies hey nick i got a bounce from postmaster bnr ca it seems that they ve never heard of a user npet you should sort these guys out tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions anybody who drove into somebody like that in this country would hopefully lose their licence however the avoidance is simple don t stop behind the cage stop beside it or better still in front of it so that it acts as a buffer tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit why do you let such brain dead idiots drive in the us tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	please tell me they re not permenant scratches is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help thanks in advance cathy cathy saum cs andrew cmu edu s negley ave yamaha seca xj pgh pa cl custom wooden tank studio mustang v dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe i m sorry you felt i was pissing on your list no disparagement was intended and i would be most interested to know what i said that made you feel that way i am not suggesting that your list is superflous nor that it will not serve a need i just would like not to see the boxer contingent split but there is certainly enough net for more than one list bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes ok hold on a second and clarify something for me what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for jnm here in iowa it is has been owi operating under the influence and omvi operating motor vehicle under the influence they gov t changed it to omvi so that people in motor boats could also be charged with drunk driving eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions another tip is to make sure you keep well to one side of the lane this gives you a quicker escape route jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article c w w dpd dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes charles sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu wrote folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project how bout big faus and little halsey with robert redford and that little guy that was in bonnie clyde good flick imho michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling some guy came to the omrra race school last weekend with number plates on his v max he didn t get more than practice laps in before he pushed the frame too hard and it drove him into the guard rail on the back straight portland international raceway is now for on v max es v max handling ferget it btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that s all i know i hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured let s hope not but semi coherent sounds like a good description of someone who shows up at the track w a vmax in the first place tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher wrote shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes i know it sounds ludicrous for a biker to advocate restrictions on biking in a biking forum don t you mean former motorcyclist no hmmmmmmmmm i can read this one of two ways ed gotabike motorcyclist is like alcoholic once you re an alcoholic you re always an alcoholic at least that s what friends in a position to know tell me tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re bmw boxer tv ad karr cs cornell edu david karr wrote mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes did anyone see the tv ad for the new bmw boxer on u k television at the weekend not me since i have no reception and no cable i m not likely to see any ads and if i did they d most likely be have been taped in the us anyway yeh be tough to pick up uk telly in your situation no signs of type ads in tv in the states yet but i don t watch much so i m not in a real position to comment but i got my invite to the dealer introduction on the deck out back rsvp is on the way tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	yamaha locks was cobra lock has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok it looks like it uses the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock but unlike a u lock it is hinged in places and opens out to a large rectangle longer length than any u lock i have seen plus it folds down to real small so you could lock the rear tire to a steel post for example i was curious as to how well the jointed sections would stand up to attack tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t attract grundge like pj blue does i gave it the acid test a full day s worth of breaking in the quadracer s new paddle tires down at the sand dunes if there s anything wet stickey it will be coated with sand at the end of the day but the chain looked pretty clean i ll third the recommendation as miracle spooge don t go to the dealer to get it or what happened to me might happen to you you put a deposit on a new bike sigh chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes steve bunis se southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok it is far from new it s been around almost as long as dirt from the photo in motorcyclist it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock except it folds in five places it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar anyone had any experience with them how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections i had one for one of my old bikes worked fine i m sure being rigid and nonflexible that the cyclelok would yield instantly to the freeze and break routine but then for what do ya want later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	help me adjust my tappits well just got all the parts replaced that needed replced sprokets chain and notice that engine still taps like it did before all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of any problems anyone else has encountered i ride a yamaha exciter cc stop laughing it s tiny but it s shiny matthew sheppard clarkson university sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu i d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy anon i don t want a pickle dod tep ride free etcetera
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting just one little thing last year mid december a cop pulled me over it was about centigrade and it just started snowing o k you are right i live in canada the cop checked my license insurance ownership looked at my frozen nose and fingers told me to watch the speed limit more closely and entering his cruiser told me i was doing instead of km h didn t ticket me and i really slowed down after that i already mentioned it started to snow safe riding stefan stefan ruhl german exchange student come out on a honda if you can get it running
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required any help would be nice thank you for your support spring break i went through the four corners area and back the most beautiful stop i made was in utah at the needles overlook though this is a bit further east than where you appear to be going i highly recommend it imho it is far more beautiful than the grand canyon it was not well marked but was one of few paved roads off of us i was heading north from monticello in order to get to the right place i should clarify that it is the needles overlook and not the recreation area heading north from monticello it is the second turnoff and may have been marked as the anticline overlook anticline overlook is about dirt if this matters to you miles past the needles overlook the road out to the overlook is paved and reasonably maintained i ran it about mph looking out from the overlook was like being god and looking down on the world if it isn t too far out of your way you should see it dan martin i can t stand this proliferation of paperwork martind spot its useless to fight the forms you ve got to kill the people producing them colorado edu vladimir p kabaidze soviet plant manager
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc i think i m going to put together a faq on buying a new bike ravi used to po one all the time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca make that buying a first bike a new bike is not generally a good first bike dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes joe i m sorry you felt i was pissing on your list no disparagement was intended and i would be most interested to know what i said that made you feel that way you didn t i meant pissing like boxer owners piss on k bike owners and k bike owners piss on boxer owners and so forth in the end it s nothing more than co owner ribbing no disparagement was received or returned intentionally sorry bout the lack of s joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes why do you let such brain dead idiots drive in the us because unlike the uk passing the average driving test over here usually only requires a pulse a single digit iq every state controls their own licensing requirements so it s possible that there s a test out there that actually requires some driving skills but i doubt it blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t i just called them and they said the order went out on the th they re putting a ups tracer on it watch it ll be waiting for me at home tonight dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article r pbu k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs it s a shame there s no law against driving while stupid after a little while it would prevent all kinds of accidents dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article f b w w fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required well it s closer to bryce than bryce is to arches i d spend a lot of time studying the maps there s a lot of you can t get there from here in that area you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california loop around to canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion on the way home make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists a nice booklet detailing a lot of interesting paved byways and unpaved backways roads can be ordered from the utah travel council i think you can also get a state map from them just for asking utah byways and backways us utah travel council council hall capitol hill salt lake city ut blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient how about some sources for all these numbers or is this more stuff that everybody knows blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure i know the roads up there in minnesota are pretty bad but i doubt that they are that bad i ve never realy tried to watch my back tyre but my maxim will pull the front wheel off the ground if i pop the clutch admittedly it is easier with someone on back maybe that s what keeps the rear tyre down john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling vmax racing horror story deleted portland international raceway is now for on v max es v max handling ferget it actually a wera racer william lumsden considered running a vmax in a superstock he took it out to talladega gpr for a practice day and really annoyed the riders they usually got caught behind a sideways vmax in the corners and if they passed him going in he d blow by down the straight usually wobbling needless to say since he was seconds faster on a cb f he decided against the vmax too bad ray hixon wera expert a single minded guy
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had if this is the same as adjusting the shims between cam and valve i have the same question do you buy a full set of shims before starting the adjustment process or do you calculate the shims you need and then run off to the dealer in the cage to see if the right shims are in stock obviously the latter would be cheaper what do shims cost but are measurements of the shim need reliable enough to buy only the indicated shims chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles hah newbie bait everyone knows the first motorcycle wasn t built until there were no pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but i can t figure that part out you ve been watching too much northern exposure what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough why because our wheels are repairable i imagine the owner scrapping out his or her living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked in next to their cx humph obviously more bait everyone knows you don t discard maytag boxes even after they ve become uninhabitable they re make a great poor boy s mechanic s creeper cx whazzat i m hoping for some deliverance okay let s hear you squeal like a pig i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching there must be hope beware fanatical preaching lest the residents of waco texas set up a huge salad bar in your honor jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re moa members another letter to read in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes o k moa ers you read it think for yourself i trust you do know who cecil king is and that he was editor befor don douglass and he is a pres candidate i let you draw your own conclusions i don t know who either is but i think i see your problem you ve got cecil king and don douglass what you need is don king and cecil adams or maybe rodney king and beanie cecil jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	black reflector tape a few months ago in one the the motorcycle mags there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight and reflect in other colors at night to headlights it sounded like a nice way to add nighttime visibility without turning the bike into a carnival attraction i talked to the local bmw dealer about this i was told that the only thing he had heard about this kind of reflector was it being used in a coming line of bmw clothing rainsuits he wasn t aware of anything regarding self applied tape has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source thanks steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article drutx att com pms torreys att com paul m smith writes in article rmugele apr oasun oracle com rmugele oracle com robert mugele writes i ve tried unsuccessfully to locate a place that sells maxima chain wax in the dallas area does anyone know of a retail outlet for it in this area or a mail order purveyor anywhere in the dallas area i just bought a can it s for my best friend s bike a xlh mines got a belt hahahahaha for with tax at bates discount cycle parts on the southbound i e service road in farmers branch just a couple miles north of the i i e interchange they have about a dozen cans left neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes stuff deleted questions to ask a typical cop a in regards to pulling over someone of a minor moving violation rolling stop unsignaled lane change ish mph over speed limit etc minor you put unsignalled lane change in a minor category now i know who these guys are jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson writes well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient so of the hp produced by my fj engine hp watts hp kilowatts is being dumped into leetle tiny o rings that s watts per o ring seems a little hot doncha think o chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion one of the reasons i originally liked my current guythingy so much was becase he had a bmw sigh that s music to my ears after all the complaining lois did about the seat on my bmw the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean of your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder on the inside of the turn i ve found that the phrase sack of potatoes works pretty well in describing to a passenger how s he should act switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider on a long ride with my ex girlfriend nancy i would notice her drifting off every so often we were droning down highway to la i probably wouldn t have been aware of this if she hadn t been in the habit of squeezing my butt with her knees to hold on good advice mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member of the league for programming freedom to find out how software patents may cost you your right to program contact lpf uunet uu net
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha locks was cobra lock in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok oooo i hope it s nothing like i had on my seca turbo i had locked up the back wheel and forgot about it when i took off i heard a clunk but i just drove away leaving the lock broken on the ground real security in action the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits christopher g karras cgkarras world std com wrote if this is the same as adjusting the shims between cam and valve i have the same question do you buy a full set of shims before starting the adjustment process or do you calculate the shims you need and then run off to the dealer in the cage to see if the right shims are in stock obviously the latter would be cheaper what do shims cost but are measurements of the shim need reliable enough to buy only the indicated shims only buy what you need it would cost a lot to buy a full set and you won t ever use most of them i have had good luck with the calculation method i have never had to change more than one size increment at a time i never needed a change larger than the next size up down usually down they cost a few each for a yamaha frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car ha if i m not on my bike it s because its broken and i m walkin really the way it should be kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes up i start jumping up and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but to date it seems like i m the only one who s ever seen this it s absolutely hysterical basic plot is this reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a very hot gang of babe bikers in leather he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time they soon discover that the gang o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves the reasoning behind this is complex and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world it is one of the funniest movies i have ever seen in my life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod
rec.motorcycles	re female s looking for riding buddy in a previous article deb ccc amdahl com david e ben jamin says i am a single white female in s looking for a man with a motorcycle to share fun trips from to days or more i have a honda magna and riding is my life but it s hard to find people to ride with this is my son s account so please respond to this address for more info phone number etc thanks i don t need a sig you don t mention your riding area if you re in the eastern part of ontario canada i may be able to help i love day runs and more more info needed lloyd xv my stallion dod carr aa freenet carleton ca munster e mail carr uranus dgrc doc ca ontario ham ip ve fhc ve osq eon on ca na
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider any information that any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated just send the reply to my account or if you d like back to the net chris melching cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu my vivid imagination sez this is almost close enuff mail to cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu users neal dod faq dod but naw neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article c wduw l o nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes stuff deleted oh my a real honest to goodness flamewar fired up here and it even has some relevance to motorcycling amazing neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes what about grease ii arun cool rider noe there s a look in your eyes like black holes in the sky shine on you crazy diamonds
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha locks was cobra lock any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy to break into if the person has the proper supplies and or motivation minutes and your bike is gone i would be glad to explain but i dont want to contribute to any unlawful activities especially since i have a bike that i would hate to see ripped off by such a trival tactic warning no lock alone is a safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need to be a locksmith or a lock picker to walk away with your property i personally think motion alarms in combination to a lock of this type is the way to go if in fact you are that concerned bill
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes the down side is that when i m in my cage i have on numerous occasions slammed my hand into the rolled up window in an effort to wave at a passing biker ow shouldn t this be in the dwi thread
rec.motorcycles	re dogs heathman ncsa uiuc edu michael heathman writes professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves a in chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with an untrained mutt may be another story of course they d say that they re trying to sell their services
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr colorado edu laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu laszlo nemeth writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake you may have been able to bounce the front up but not actually do a wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this is why a shaft bike should accelerate if it starts scraping in a corner laz sorry to be contradictory but i ve had my nighthawk at degress with the horizon and i wasn t banked over in a turn the hard part is getting the front in off the ground i rev to about at drop the clutch even harder is keeping it from coming up to far i use the back brake as well as the throttle once its up it ll wheelie just like any other bike ethan ethan bowerman dod cb sc nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like a maxed out tach and a a closed mouth contains no feet buried speedometer unknown me
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for dancing with idjits ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for mc b in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes oh banning motorcycles is not actually reasonable it is only reasonable in the eyes of a misinformed and misunderstanding public or conversely your attitude could seem blind and apathetic i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to motorcycles are not allowed on th mile drive at pebble beach jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	re cagers who thunk of it in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes who gets credit for the perfectly descriptive name cagers also does anybody know when the term was first used thanks i do yesterday seriously countess ada of lovelace gets the credit she first used it in the late s her bike the spokeless wonder jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	assorted ranting grr hate the bastard who picked the weather for today went up to visit a friend overnight about minute ride rode up after work only minor drizzing for the last minutes of the ride rest of the ride was very zen got up this morning needed to go home and get some disks stuff to work on her computers with rainy as all hell soaked and cold by the time i got home since i didn t have another set of thermals which were dry i said to heck with it and drove my cage back up lo and behold those funny blue clouds were up in the sky and this warm yellow thing i haven t seen in quite awhile showed up when i was minutes into the trip and me in my cage oh joy happily my right hand mirror finally showed up at the dealer dropped the bike when i first got it put on an emgo replacement mirror hated it the entire time that thing was on my bike because i couldn t see a damned thing through it plus it s flat instead of convex like the stock mirrors so you get a narrow angle wobbly blur and i got a replacement windshield for my fairing dropped the original and chipped the front edge cosmetic but annoying so i spent half an hour happily unscrewing things and replacing them this afternoon bout the only thing i still hate about the bike cb t is the damned d cell flashlight headlight has anyone seen a good source for watt halogen passing lights since the charging system on the cb t can t handle continuous use of a w halogen headlight i was thinking about putting a couple passing lights on that would give me w of lighting for the rare night riding i do but wouldn t drain the battery during normal use chiefly day trips and commuting to work and back
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive ak yfn ysu edu john r daker replies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground ugh who gave you guys your login names blech p john obviously never saw me ride a buddy s cx known as torque monster i could pull the most beautiful skyshots with that bike unfortunately the owner saw me do one once i never get to ride tm again mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror this dents and dings the liner sometimes quite a bit i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada it also works great to put under your kickstand on those really hot days when the tar gets really soft jim rags rye senior technical support analyst harley davidson rye crayamid cray com cray research inc mpls mn if you re going to do something tonight that you ll be sorry for tomorrow morning sleep late henny youngman my opinions are mine and only mine but for a small fee you may rent them
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me c mon you guys motorcycles booze don t mix nuff said bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes some potentially cool story stuff here do share the details how to get a verbal warning for in a it s simple first it has to be the first really nice riding day of spring the bike is back together again and so are you grab all your gear put it on and fill the tank with octane premium or better head out in ames there is a road that leads to the little town of gilbert gilbert has one stop light if that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together i thought i d take it for a short ride and check things out heading out of town i went into the twisties at a slow pace just under the speed limit and started leaning around the pace quickened as everything felt just right finally the road straightened and i was ready for a bit of speed grab third gear open her up at roughly mph grab fourth gear look at as much of the bike as you can and fail to notice a state trooper following a quarter mile behind twist the throttle like a fool grab fifth gear at or so and see just how well she s been put back together at according to radar i noticed the front fender was flexing a bit thus i slowed pulled off the road removed my helmet and gloves unslung the took kit i was carrying in a fanny pack and was just starting to tighten that fender when the trooper pulled in all hot and flustered have you any idea how fast you were going not precisely no i was paying attention to the bike and road not the instruments i just got her back together last night and i m just out here testing her out before i ride it in traffic my radar says you were at over mph care to tell me why i shouldn t give you a ticket because i was testing the motorcycle away from population and traffic on a strait and flat road while wearing all the protective gear that safety demands note i wasn t quite that eloquent say what kind of bike is that anyway i was eloquent on my cafe racer replica honda a rat bike yeah i haven t had my bike out of the garage in years compare riding stories pack toolkit having tightened that fender so why were you out here i figure every other idiot on the road is going to look right through me if the bike fails somehow in a mph zone i m dead if it holds up out here then i know it will work right in traffic i do this evvery year when i rebuild her not any more you ll find a better place than my highway to do those speeds if i ever catch you speeding on my highway again i m going to nail you for everything i possibly can now get out of my sight before i write you a ticket yes officer and kid keep your eyes open out there drives off and that in a nut shell is how to get a warning for in a i don t guarantee that it will work for you but it worked for me dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread anyway i have laz s solemn assurance that he she it was serious with the only paralevers can pull true wheelies assertion whatever the hell that means doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a uh doug i don t know what school of thought your from but chain drive are much more efficient than shafties end of story period but i will give you that shafties are much less maintenance intensive ethan ethan bowerman dod cb sc nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like a maxed out tach and a a closed mouth contains no feet buried speedometer unknown me
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering no the bars would turn only toward the direction of turn in no hands steering just in case the original poster was looking for a serious answer i ll supply one yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left it is a lot more difficult to do on a motorcycle than a bicycle though because of the extra weight ok so my motorcycle is heavy maybe yous isn t david
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us wrote i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go my fiancee and i do quite a bit of sporty riding up i ll tell you what we ve found and the systems we ve worked out on starts accelerate much slower than usual it s tough for the rider to judge how scary fast acceleration is because we re holding onto something and leaning forward remember this on turns have her lean forward and at the same angle as you normally this means she isn t leaning at all it s very disconcerting to be leaned over and have your passenger leaning so that they re sitting straight up much balance is lost and this can be dangerous on slowing and stopping do so much slower than usual again it s tough for the rider to judge how scary fast deceleration is because we re holding onto something and leaning forward however you ll figure it out fast because braking too fast will shove the passenger forward into you which shoves you into the tank at an inopportune location generally have the passenger keep her knees against you and the bike not out wide this helps balance and gives her somegrip when you passenger is in fear she will squeeze her knees against you normally this means slow down and do it now turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc we only have a couple signals slow down is her either tapping me on the back or slapping my helmet with all her might depends on the urgency of the matter turn here is done by her pointing in the direction of an exit this is also the sign for cool look at that i hafta pee is the same sign as turn here i m hungry is the same sign go faster is usually done by her jumping up and down on her pegs in glee i usually see slow down more often than go faster i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated the best thing to do before the ride is to talk to a riding buddy and pillion on his or her bike it s incredibly frustrating because you re in almost no control now multiply that feeling times ten because you as a rider know what your bike will do and your passenger will likely feel you re about to scrape hard parts all the time or lock up the brakes at any moment or go careening off the edge of a volcanic mountain etc pillioning yourself is good training to take somebody on your pillion pad also remember that it s much more draining and tiring to ride up than by yourself because you re concentrating on much more and in the zen of the moment less remember this pat loughery patlo microsoft com seattle wa dod ama vme dioc ksi vfr f nighthawk seca turbo for sale
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans unless she is really adventurous do not take her on this route for her first extended ride that s kinda like taking someone on a no show way speed star competition as their first skydive this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional if the ninja has adjustable suspension adjust it to a stiffer setting so you don t bottom out in bumpy curves tell her the cardinal rules are a never ever ever ever put her feet down not when you stop at a stop sign not when she thinks you re gonna crash never keep them on the pegs until you tell her to get off the bike b she is to hold onto your waist she should hold on tightly enough that she won t slide off the bike if you twist the throttle a bit and added bonus for you here she should keep as close to your butt as possible so quick stops don t make her slide into you and knock your balls up onto the gas tank you decide how best to word this c just stay perpendicular to the bike straight up in the seat don t lean your body into curves just go with the bike and stay perpendicular don t look over your shoulder remember at all times that you have a passenger on the back that means don t pop the clutch and try to corner and stop smoother than usual be aware that if you jump on the brake you re going to have the equivalent of a lb dead weight crashing into you from behind so be prepared for that make sure she pisses before the ride even if she says she doesn t have to go no anti women stuff here i have a tiny bladder myself remind her to look around while you re riding point to things of interest it makes the ride more enjoyable to her she won t get so focused on just looking at the back of your helmet and it gives her ample excuse to squeeze you to show she saw what you pointed at my wife and i tried the msf recommended look over the rider s shoulder in curves bit and it just didn t work the timing of her weight shift was unpredictable especially on the maxim because unlike the ninja the upright riding position really restricts the pillion s view of the road ahead next time i had her just remain perpendicular to the bike and i could hardly tell there was someone else on the bike in curves and she weighs substantially over lbs curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re bonding with a caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes but as he drove past me he actually turned all the way around in his car seat to see if i had noticed i nodded to him and smiled i can t for the life of me figure out why he was so friendly it s the dod license plate frame cops really like em either that or he mistook you for one of his friends possibly an off duty cop dave i need your clothes your boots and your motorcycle arnold schwarzenegger t
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes knight riders has got to be one of the silliest movies i ve ever seen curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i did it once with a biker girlfriend in the car and she told me that i was stupid the rider wouldn t know why i was waving she s long gone let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article one curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re what octane jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes how do you know what kind of gas to buy depending on the compression ratio of your engine i heard ok but what kind of gas goes for what kind of compression i m asking this because i used to put in my hawk gt and the other day i changed because i wanted to see if there was a difference and i don t know if i m being subjective or what but it seems like the bike runs better run your bike on the lowest octane that it will run smoothly on higher octane fuel is not better than lower octane gas pick up the last american roadracing magazine there s a short article in there about octane and the misconceptions many people make about the subject look at your owners manual i believe it states is just fine erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re bra bra brazing was for johs dhhalden no old nick the little devil wibbles tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie eh slap yer credentials on the table pete that ll show him i m terribly sorry and so you damned well should be young whipper snapper it s wet kippers at ten paces if there s any repeat of this sort of thing now in keeping with the grand tradition of wreck moto let s mutate take your partners by the hand on tuesday morning i spent a couple of hours when i should have been working with a torch brazing bits of scrap metal over the biggest holes in yamadog s exhaust pipes s mazin what you can do with a couple of aa cells and a three volt bulb i stuck some gun gum into the smaller holes and bunged the pipes back onto the bike so last night i m on the way home when lo an bloody behold the sodding thing starts blowing again i check it out and the gas is escaping from around the clamp holding the number two pipe into the port as far as i can see it being somewhat hole of calcutta at the time the nuts are still there stop that bloody sniggering you at the back but the pipe is a bit loose this morning i go out to the bike and pull out the socket set to tighten up me nuts somebody give that spotty kid at the back a good slap round the back of the head and lo an bloody behold a bloody gen i find that the outer skin of the pipe has separated from the inner sleeve right at the clamp mating bevel so i stuff in a bit of baked beanz can and a bit more of mr holts very best gun gum and come to work late again so that i can ask of the oracle will a brazed joint hold that close to the exhaust port anybody tried it oh and if anybody can tell me what the differences are between a and a brazing rod made by gaz yup the camping folks surprised the marmalade outa me too in that place just off the isle of wight i d be eternally grateful twenty sodding quid for two rods and i don t even know what i m buying bloody kanji john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes the nelson rigg bag has and the side ones can be used or not depending on the load using just the three is super convenient and the extra two are great for carrying beer concentrate bricks or reports written by overpaid consultants quit keeping us in suspense who sells this remarkable bag later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	yamaha xj h maxim for sale denver area message posted by for roomate bike is in good condition is black has miles mag wheels front disk rear drum good front tire new back tire o ring chain new battery new starter and has that laid back look bike runs real strong with all four carbs giving their best buyer gets a cover all weather lockable heatproof tank bag non magnetic can t take disks along otherwise cargo net manual bike has origional tool kit matching yamaha lock asking or best offer i would like to sell this soon so please call voice ack with any questions john silvia in area home work
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt that s because they took the old vt engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk new twin or does that only fly for microsoft nt new technology i ve been at this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson
rec.motorcycles	re re first bike and wheelies in rec motorcycles speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes buy an old cc dirt bike find a vacant field get owners permission and learn the basics when your done sell or trash the bike and move to the street speedy you ve got this all wrong when you re done buy a better dirt bike body armor decent boots and forget about the weenie street riding jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha dirt bike riding is perfectly safe i have the scars to prove it
rec.motorcycles	power loss under load of a honda cb t i have a honda cb t which for most of my purposes runs well however i expereince a severe power drop at cruising speeds under load that is on a mild upgrade mph in th or th i m lucky if i can hold speed if i try to add throttle much past rpm power drops drastically put simply under load the engine won t rev past rpm the top third half of the throttle range is dead standing still the engine runs fine up to red line k other phenomenology at about the point that power loss kicks in the engine becomes a little wavery that is at a steady throttle the engine speed goes up and down slightly the bike has about miles on it and is in good tune at least until it starts to balk i would appreciate any suggestions as to what s ailing the poor beast my thoughts run toward clogged jets and or improper spark advance i m hoping it s not something more drastic since the bike s not really worth the hassle of any major engine work thanks britt park britt cb iris stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson wrote in article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim valve seat wear okay okay i forgot about that sheeesh jeff nichols rice university
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr bike history as if this endears me to the dod honda xl high school kawasaki klr honda v sabre cornering by committee honda hawk gt proctologists designed this bike vfr i ll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply in your state p s anyone got a nomex suit for sale
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article c shd lh athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony i m not sure that s true let me rephrase you can file a complaint which will bring the person into court as i understand it a citizens arrest does not have to be the physical detention of the person i think we just found the difference between a citizens arrest physical detention of a suspect and a report warrant better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	test ignore ignore
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes mtrost convex com matthew trost writes in apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs you better check all the screws in that carb before you suck one into a jug and munge a piston or valve i ve seen it happen before what on a mikuni i m going through the exploded view of the mm flatslide on the ol sport the mm round slide on spike and the monster on my old norton in my mind and i can t for the life of me see a screw in any of them that if it came loose could get into a jug when they explode em all the screws fly away chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions if possible i split lanes even if you don t get all the way to the head of the line at least you won t rear ended i always worry more when i m in the lane at the front of the line and no one in behind me then you have to keep an eye on your mirrors i also get ready to pull a hard right just in case mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road hmmmm i noticed sometime ago that i could do the same on my virago and since i don t read many schematics i didn t really think aobut it too much yes it does provide excellent coverage but i figured it would probably draw a little too much current i also figured that it was overlapped just to prevent a blank spot of no headlight are you saying that these switches are designed for the hi lo combination jay hamillton xv with more chrome than a harley hamiltoj handel cs colostate edu time to change the oil again dod and kotcm
rec.motorcycles	re zipper repairs was tankbag in article carlp frigg carlp frigg isc br com carl paukstis writes bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes yep it works like a charm i had the same problem after about years of constant use and i was thinking of seeing how much eclipse would want to install a new zipper but someone i think it was chuck karish suggested i try that trick it took a couple of tries to get the right amount of squish but it s been fine for about years since i squished it it should work for any of the nylon coil type zippers otoh i tried this on my hg concord jacket thursday night really i just made a tiny adjustment type of squeeze really is was your hg zipper the nylon coil type or the kind with molded plastic teeth i ve only tried it on the coiled nylon type and it doesn t take much squish to fix the problem i found i was overdoing it no broken parts but the zipper was too hard to pull so after spreading the zipper pull jaws again i tried with vice grips no not the usual grip of death technique i adjusted the closed vice grips so they were snug on the zipper jaws then released them and tightened the adjusting screw a bit a couple of iterations and i had just the right amount of zipper squish tm result i now know that noplace in spokane will even consider trying to repair a broken zipper closer thingy which must be a part which needs a tool to install i ve had two zipper pulls fail on my aerostich suit actually on the accessory ellipse and they sent me a few replacement pulls free of charge i don t know what brand of zippers hg uses but parts are available for ykk s plastic zippers replacement was pretty simple just break and remove the plastic knob at the top of the zipper that keeps the pull from coming off the top end slide on the new zipper pull then crimp on vice grips again a replacement zipper stop you might try fabric stores such and see if they sell replacement parts oh for what it s worth the coil type zippers on the eclipse tankbag are also ykk blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it we were having a problem with instability in the universal gravitational constant that day the closer i got to those exposed fangs still dripping no doubt with the viscera of the last foolhardy experimenter cum canine psychology the bigger and heavier the dog appeared to become also recall that the distribution of the lb is one five pound jaw teeth operated by two lb muscles driven by a ounce brain possessing an instinctual heuristic composed of equal parts of bloodlust and ravening hunger the other lb is of course dog poop but that varies all over the place as the dog deposits it regularly on the painstakingly manicured and tended lawns of the dog s owner s neighbors whilst continuously replenishing its inexhaustible supply no doubt by consuming the likes of folks like me you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off my very thought at the time but as i looked down at these once formidable instruments of mayhem i realized they had become weak and atrophied by too many sedentary hours tapping away at my ergonomically correct crt keyboard there was only one option left i reached down to the toolbox near my car and grasped my craftsman ft lb torque wrench surely the bludgeon of dire necessity if ever there was one to my amazement and confusion the setter started shaking and rolling on the grass then leapt to its feet and vanished down the street still quivering and occasionally looking back at me seven at one blow i exclaimed flexing my new found biceps and brandishing my terrible weapon of invincibility as i stalked the now secure environs of my domicile it was only later that i found out what the dog apparently knew all along the wrench was defective would no longer measure torque accurately and sears wouldn t fix it or replace it what i had interpreted as fear and subservience were in fact unmitigated hilarity and contempt sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages exactly nobody can look quite as silly as we can chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders in the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input to effect motorcycle lean by themselves even after many years of practice i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure to swerve in most of the accidents and near accidents that i ve seen riders will almost always stand on the brakes as hard as they dare simply because the instinct to brake in the face of danger is so strong that it over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally preferable apparently the instinct to brake in the face of danger isn t as strong as the instinct to freeze up and do nothing in the face of danger hurt found that a surprising number of accident involved motorcyclists hadn t used their brakes at all prior to impact i think the only way you ll ever use countersteering reliably and correctly in a crisis is to make it the only conscious method of directional control you ever use and to practice it constantly even when you have no need to do any turning if you follow me down a long straight and i seem to be wiggling back and forth randomly or suddenly without obvious need it s because i m practicing countersteering and avoiding imaginary obstacles directly in my path all of this practice may indeed be futile but if i have even milliseconds to react the most familiar tactic available and hopefully the most automatic will be countersteering the same logic applies to braking with the front brake of course chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag me too even after i bought the piece krauser k set now and then dk puts them on sale for bux or so to clear out inventory but they never seem to to go away they are the volkswagens of tank bags i guess btw the late paul o neill showed me a trick with a pair of pliers that will extend their life considerably when the zipper starts to separate behind the pull because of age and wear squash the pull body with the pliers just a bit to tighten it back up i would have tossed my bag three years ago but this fixed it up and kept it secure and reliable chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes charles parr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes if satan rode a bike cb would you stop to help him only if he was a true motorcyclist with the real riding attitude as you probably are aware there is a sure fire rec moto test for this attribute god would ride a vincent white lightning with rightous injection he d wear a one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves why you think s he s worried about road rash chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake well just when you think nothing will strike at a bmw key fob ostrich feather dipped in silly putty and varnished solid lure somebody comes along and inhales it right up to the lead swivel there is a dog it s going to be pretty difficult to better worsen a trolling scheme this low though chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re story in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes description of a pretty rowdy sounding party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend to compose fair piece of the population bein the ones that regard bikers as a loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble doesn t sound like they attended though does it in fact if we riders need friends it sounds a lot like we might have a whole townfull from lynn s description especially if the same crowd gets invited back to party some more year after year sure you didn t rape and pillage it s a relief to know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out of hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking i should say you seem to be one of very few bent out of shape over these lesser indiscretions if the towns people aren t ruffled by the indiscretions and the partyers aren t either maybe the indiscretions don t amount to anything more threatening or damaging than harmless good natured rowdiness among consenting adults the only thing that really bothered me about the description was the knee deep empty beer cans in the street but maybe the town had a plan to deal with that since they helped set up the party in the first place if i lived there and the bikers previous visits had established a record of mutual cooperation and good intentions i d certainly rather they stick around and party than go riding off into the night impaired and maybe get hurt or killed oh i m sorry i just noticed that you left mucho bucks as in money nevermind my criticism i was out of line i forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks as in money their behavior is permissable perhaps even justified if it doesn t hurt anyone and all the parties to the party benefit and consider the entire activity to be benign and harmless then who needs to permit or justify it you why do you need to do that keep in mind that themfolks are the ones that could give a when a biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don t respect our rights on the roads because we do not respect theirs all the rest of the time ironically these particular townsfolk probably are in the minority that don t happen to fit the stereotype you describe they ve developed a friendly long term mutually beneficial relationship with a group of motorcyclists and aren t as burdened with mc ignorance as is the general population because of it need i continue if such a need exists it surely must come from within so continue to wear your stigma as a badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect of their values on yours remember that it was probably the behavior of self righteous wusses like myself that kept them at bay for this long well you got the self righteous wusses part right anyway chuck rogers car torreys att com you might have heard i run with a dangerous crowd we ain t too pretty we ain t too proud we might be laughin a bit too loud ah but that never hurt no one you know that only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wayne orwig worwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground well my last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives an odd feel but it still wheelies feeding frenzy ah tis april in rec moto and the newbies are bitin catch all you want we ll make more chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though dream machine quality ain t what it used to be kinetic art did some great paint jobs on bimotas don t know if they are still around roger collier uk sun com o o o o sun microsystems h coventry england u dod gsxr l keeper of the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help car accessory shops here sell stuff called t cut which is a very fine cutting paste for paint and this will remove the dull finish and minor acratches it will also remove all the traffic film and stuff that you probably don t realise is there and give your paintwork its original lustre and shine it can sometimes react badly with metallic paint though so try it out carefully before going to town with the stuff afterwards apply wax polish and all will be well again btw don t confuse t cut with the cutting paste used for grinding in valves the principle s the same but the coarseness is vastly different mike
rec.motorcycles	bmw frame set up for sale for sale or trade bmw r us frame and misc converted to earles fork the package includes frame swingarm and earles fork final drive rear fender front fender large tank steel wheels laced w ss spokes one new rim one ec used rim all brackets brake hdware footrests etc the colour scheme used is the original bmw optional bristol grey items not painted are earles rigid section needs straightening this rigid section was bent when i received it not from being mounted to the r us frame earles swingarm and the headlight shell i have the paintthat was used and can finish the non painted items if desired the striping was done by holt design not included engine gearbox electrics seat this is a clean and tidy project the project was terminated due to lack of time and the r hp engine that was to be used was transferred to another project i would prefer to sell the package as whole i am negotiable as to what can be included in the package i will not separate any of the painted items i am willing to take spares in trade e mail any inquiries thanx carl
rec.motorcycles	re buying a suzuki gs e advice wanted awhite ssc sas upenn edu andrew white writes hello net readers i am looking for a little net advice i ve got my eye on a suzuki gs e at a local dealer the bike s got miles on it and looks in mint condition dealer is asking a bit less than good price i don t have access to a blue book and am too lazy to go to the library dealer is letting me test ride it this week blue book says wholesale retail sounds like you are getting a pretty fair price assuming it is in nice condition andrew white univ of pennsylvania edu breath awhite mcneil sas upenn edu dod honda sabre v nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required well it s closer to bryce than bryce is to arches i d spend a lot of time studying the maps there s a lot of you can t get there from here in that area you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california loop around to canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion on the way home make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists highway is a great road be sure to stop by the anasazi sp village museum near boulder creek interesting lifestyle the views of dixie national forest are stunning karen black
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question lotto laura harvard edu jerry lotto writes yes it was specifically the ability or understanding of the technique which was absent how did hurt measure the ability of riders to swerve
rec.motorcycles	re so do any police ossifers read this stuff in article c u dl a v athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy sorry allan but unless you happen to be the guy who watches t v while he s driving a white toyota on route between atsugi and hiratsuka you re not even close to being the enemy john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re black reflector tape i got a sample of black reflector material maybe from conspicuity it is black but reflects silver if the angle of incidence is shallow whoever it was i got it from sold sells kits that fit bmw and other brands of luggage and fenders don t know what i did with the sample the kits seemed too expensive as i recall henry prange biker reflectionologist physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage we all lie cheat and steal mostly a little sometimes a lot relax
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in article c ytzo news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com jim brewer writes russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking and the backmarker was chuck graves i believe
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes how to get a verbal warning for in a poppy cock this story is obviously a complete fabrication and i ll show you why in ames there is a road that leads to the little town of this establishes that the story takes place in iowa gilbert gilbert has one stop light if that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together i thought i d take it for a short ride and check things out heading out of town i went into the twisties at a slow pace just under the speed limit in iowa come on now dan how dumb do you think we are you could have at least thrown in a llama or tennis ball reference hell you didn t even get the speed right dean ps dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re dod pins not in article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes bad news right after we placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing we got in under the wire with an order of or so pins but as a result of the low number of pins we were relegated to the we ll get to it in between other runs bin as a result it seems that it may be another or weeks how about the name and number of the pin place i would think that or so people calling to bitch about why orders placed after ours are getting done first might speed things along dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch my cb does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl l h x x low x x x n x x high dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re wanted uk bmw r insurance tips in article apr infodev cam ac uk idb cus cam ac uk i d benham writes hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner article repeated due to large amount of other articles since st sent
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c itu dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was michael maybe you had accidentally sealed in some water i cleaned my chain thoroughly took it on a short ride to dry it off and heat it up a bit and the paraffin sank deep into the rollers and formed a good seal on the outside no rust but then again i live in tucson b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	changing oil on virago was yamaha vs honda opinions aa freenet carleton ca lloyd carr writes in a previous article phj remus rutgers edu p ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes sure don t know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn t a virago i ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed well watching several denizen s dismantle laurie s virago in an attempt to change the oil at the ride n feed a few years back was a pretty funny site surely with the combined wisdom of all these folks they weren t doing things the hard way were they paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit inde wv rosie uh edu writes hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions the experience you describe is why i don t like to sit with my bike in gear i figure there s a chance that i ll be startled in some way and stall my bike and i figure this is more likely than the chance that i ll be unable to escape some situation because of the extra time needed to put the bike in gear so i concentrate on avoiding situations rather than making split second evasive manuvers i split lanes so i m not at the end of the line unfortunately this is not legal in most of the country if i can t split perhaps there isn t room then i will stop near one side of the lane so i have an easy escape and leave my bike in gear until the next car has stopped i watch in my mirrors in the mean time to make sure it will whether i really would have time to move should a car fail to stop i haven t had to find out yet some cars have an annoying habbit of racing up behind you before braking heavilly so it can be hard to tell if they are planning to brake or not so in summary position yourself for an easy exit and then watch your mirrors until it s all clear paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re electricty in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes nh trying to figure out a way to put a halogen beam on my cb t are nh there any easy ways to do this i e a slip in bulb replacement no the honda s employed a sealed beam which was not interchangeable with anything else so far as i could ever tell i ve owned two s over the years and that was always one of my biggest nits i m not sure how far standardisation went but on two of my bikes the gs b and i think the gt m i was able to pop a cibie insert directly into the original housing held in by those roughly w shaped springs the inserts used w halogen bulbs and were great although mr bill later indicates that this may be too much of a drain on your charging system ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	re first bike in rec motorcycles james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love responsible and in love i believe that s a contradiction in terms unless you re really brave read reckless a cc sport bike will go way faster than you dare for at least your first year of riding getting more than that really is overkill as you ll never even want to use it the following bikes can be bought and repaired cheaply are easy for a novice to manage and are plenty high performance kawasaki ex honda vf interceptor suzuki gs e the mph time of the ex at full throttle is way sooner than you re ready for it with something as small as a you d probably be wishing for more power pretty quickly unless it s a tzr or rgv now i m not saying that you re certain to kill yourself immediately with a f or a gsxr plenty of people have started riding on those bikes and done just fine what i am saying is that it s a waste of money and a waste of perfectly good plastic when you drop the thing learning how to balance while stopping you ll never get the throttle more than half open anyway so why spend the extra bucks chris
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last pky fmg bt co uk pete young writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa you cannot be serious personally i think nick s postings are the best thing on wreck moto
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca the angel levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it no but i ve driven my cage to the bike park thinking i was riding the bike
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c itu dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was interesting all i can say is that i haven t seen any wear in the miles i ve used the stuff on the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean i ll check back again in a few thousand more miles while we re on the subject whereinthehell can i find a x endless chain other than the dealer no rivet type master links are not acceptable later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches in article sfppisk wb hpo e andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help has he realised yet or are you hoping to fix it before he does if you re planning to use t cut be careful sunlight fades paint and t cut removes the surface layer so if its a older bike or very sunny where you live then the colour of the t cut panel wont match the rest of the bike bob bob morley pipex public ip exchange dod cambridge science park ogrite milton road cbr fl cambridge cb wa ely district mcc england
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes in article apr asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has a lot less maintenance which is fine if you don t mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy ok and you regularly ride your bike to within of it s maximum capability note any idiot can go flat out on a bike most of them do anyway efficient at what a shaft drive is a much more efficient solid erect lump of metal than a floppy flaccid unsatisfying chain doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article unbvm csd unb ca c a c a unb ca writes in article hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu pm apr is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago i ve seen em but the real question is can one do a wheelie on a lead wing if so how high would the front wheel be off the ground wheelies on lead wings are possible but they ain t easy or so my hhmmm what is the relation great uncle several times removed tells me as for how high how high do you want em modulation isn t exactly the easiest thing in the world or so says a guy years old well apparently once you get past about inches all the luggage shifts back in the panniers the passenger slides back and the dog ends up hanging onto the top rack and they go all the way over until it s flat on it s ass with the front wheel straight up in the sky impressive but hard on the tail lights doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article c u li em dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i read that gm wants to keep the design part of lotus but lose the car production and i seem to remember that the main problem with the elan was caused by gm s insistence that the elan be re designed significantly for the us market which caused major design production headaches i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars quite true brain fade on my part david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.motorcycles	want to borrow rent a bike in boston this summer this summer july my wife michelle and i will be in boston attending my brother s wedding after the wedding we are planning to motor up to bar harbor maine to visit some relatives for a few days our summer would be made if we could find a bike or bikes to borrow or rent to ride up to bar harbor and back here s some important details i ve been riding for years my own bikes for the past years michelle has been riding for the past years her own bikes i ve only been involved in one accident which was caused by a cage driver running a stop sign i currently own a bmw r michelle owns a yamaha virago we prefer cruising over racing we ve toured a fair amount we re both licensed and insured and we re nice people so if anyone has a bike or bikes but the second one would have to be a virago or something else with an equally low seat that they would be willing to loan us for days in july michelle and i would be eternally grateful in addition to our friendship you would also have the use of our bikes should you ever pass through minneapolis in exchange we would be happy to take you and a guest out for dinner and an evening of wild bike stories or we might even be willing to cough up some money for improvements to the bike s like new tires or something also any information about bike rentals in the boston area would be greatly appreciated thanks scott brandt
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i hate the b the b can bite me jim i hope you never drive or ride when you have been drinking you have been taking prescription drugs you didn t get enough sleep the night before you are upset with your girlfriend you just didn t feel like your brain was talking to your body you think you are at laguna seca and want to break the lap record any of the above situations have the potential for harm read death people make mistakesif you have never endangered someone else by driving a vehicle in an unsafe manner then go right ahead and bitch about mr infante misuse of a motor vehicle otherwise think about your own driving responsibilities i am sorry about the loss of your friends but it could just as well been the idiot who bought a volvo because he has problems falling asleep at the wheel eric simmon eeel nist gov
rec.motorcycles	squids and dealers yesterday a friend had asked me to accompany him to a local motorcycle dealer it has been a while since he last rode years and i myself have never bought a new bike from a dealer what follows is an experience of that visit and of an observation of squildly behavior by other customers and or sales personel background i ride with a group of friends who mainly are into cruiser type bikes my friend was hell bent on getting an intruder and had seen a few used ones he wanted to see what the new ones were going for so we happened upon a dealer that sold both suzuki and yamaha the place was fairly busy so we browsed a bit we happened upon a few intruders most of which had sold signs on my friend had been bitten well the salesdroid appeared and as my friend started chewing the fat i moseid on outside the next thing i know i see or sport bikes pull in i could stereo type the type of riders backward ball hat oakley iq but i won t well they went inside i didn t think much of it i figured to each his own i went back in to see if the salesdroid had his fangs firmly implanted into my friends back when i noticed the hormone gang talking to other salesdroids managers lot s of laughter jokes etc no big deal here is the part that concerned me the hg and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said hg members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those beasts at this point one decided to see how much rubber a katana could deposit in the drive squids i thought to myself but i was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged it to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion on another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot to quickly catch up the others followed making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt i felt embarassed at this point to be a motorcyclist i felt the eyes of those in cages witnessing this display then glancing over to the dealers lot and damning all those on two wheels needless to say my friend felt a little uncomfortable and we left i will now turn off my frustration and go ride peacefully to clear my anger i only hope that the cop who is following me home has an open mind and doesn t associate me with them btw i can t afford a new bike
rec.motorcycles	bike vacation in the states this summer i m going to use my vacation drivin riding through the states and i do have some questions that i would like to post here since i m from norway i was wondering how much does it cost to rent a bike in the states i m probarly going to the san fransisco san jose area the ride around i think as you might have noticed i still haven t made any plans so if you know about places i ought to visit please e mail me khool wanna be a dod hangarond db bih no karstein holen since i hurt my pendulum my life is all erratic my parrot who was cordinal is now transmitting static the carpet died a palm collapsed the cat keeps doing poo the only thing that keeps me sane is talking to my shoe my shoe
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between how dare you make such an accusation there are many sober non drinkers in this state if we wern t so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end i might just come up that and have a talk wit you b dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re wing ding wing ding xv will take place in louisville kentucky from june june for more info or to register contact gwwra p o box phoenix az tel duncan sterling buffalo wam umd edu gt l kh a ca k university of maryland yeeehaaa slim pickens in dr strangelove college park md strokes are quicker than anonymous
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in rec motorcycles sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of any problems anyone else has encountered i would stongly recommend a factory service manual and if you are not an experienced machanic then get a chiltons or haynes sp also make sure the bike has cooled at least hours since being run read the books and if you have more questions you could mail me also be very careful when tightening valve cover bolts they take very little torque and breaking one is disaster rich sturges falls church va
rec.motorcycles	zx jetting what jetting do you recommend for a zx with standard mufflers instead of the standard one idle main cheers manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx calle alcala dr s madrid dod tel don t waste your time express it
rec.motorcycles	borderline in article apr sue cc uregina ca franks hercules cs uregina ca derek franks writes i was wondering if anyone on the net knows where when the wing ding is if so would you please e mail post the info i ve never been to one and have some free time this summer and am considering attending anyone else vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvv this is my first post so no dod aspencade nd one getting close there o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	law order dod anyone catch the tv show law order last night at least here in nyc they the law enforcement people needed to catch a member of dod department of doom for inflicting a computer virus in a hospital s mainframe which ended up killing two people because wrong amounts of medication were given to them anyhow is department of doom on the list o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article cassidy elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes up i start jumping up and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but to date it seems like i m the only one who s ever seen this it s absolutely hysterical basic plot is this reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a very hot gang of babe bikers in leather he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time they soon discover that the gang o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves the reasoning behind this is complex and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world it is one of the funniest movies i have ever seen in my life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod i actually saw this movie about three months ago but it wasn t called easy wheels it was something else that escapes me at the moment but i did rent it from blockbuster video and it was a hoot in the same class as plan from outer space jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it yup do it whenever i am in the cage which is not often if its riding weather ie no snow i find arm out and down and kinda finger wave works best for sport bikes and arm out up works best for harleys similar to how i wave when i am on the bike let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article yah mean like i get the urge but i ve never actually done it done what why jody we would never ever even dream of assuming that a young lady of such refined breeding and taste would even consider such things i mean some matters do not even have to be discussed by civilized beings but in confidence just between the two of us not even once or perhaps got excited thinking about it i know that i do bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	kaw kz owners tankbag stuff i was just wondering what kind brand name etc would be best on this bike thanks for your advice jbourgui ucs indiana edu
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes interesting all i can say is that i haven t seen any wear in the miles i ve used the stuff on the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean on a related note since ups lost my chain wax and i m still using pj goo i found some great stuff to clean chain spooge of wheels it s called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off my rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off my headlight wonderful stuff i recommend that we officially delcare it a dod wonder spooge tm product dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits jeff nichols jcn rice edu wrote and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim because the valves recede into the cylinder head faster than the shims cams wear down frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i found some great stuff to clean chain spooge of wheels it s called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off my rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off my headlight wonderful stuff i recommend that we officially delcare it a dod wonder spooge tm product i think you can get that at most head shops i m not kidding although it seems more appropriate for them to be selling simple green bmwr gs erik asphaug
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes ed all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand ed the technique of countersteering me including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way me through a corner ed well all the way through a decreasing radius corner anyway maybe they are riding around an ever decreasing circle of lies which eventually leads to the truth me the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the me front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being me that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place if that s the official line taught in those rider education classes you were refering to that also don t teach countersteering i have to question the quality of the classes me too though unfortunately the official line is the one that you have to adhere to if you want to get a full licence the examiner s guidelines are laid down by the government and the basic rider education courses have no choice but to follow them it surprises me that none of the rider groups here either mag or the bmf make much noise about the fact that the riding test requires you to ride three feet from the kerb all the time in order to pass that the front brake must be applied before the rear that you have to keep looking over your shoulder all the time instead of just when it is justified there s probably a few more too which i can t think of for the moment if the riding test could be rejigged a bit to include more of the real world survival skills and less of the woefully simplistic crap that it contains now then the accident figures would imho reduce still further don t think we should include countersteering knowledge in our test though
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch my cb does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl l h x x low x x x n x x high and my cx too i first thought it was the wiring diagram that didn t fit my machine dean jb
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax wheelies in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re posted gif of bmw r s if any would care to see any more close ups or different angles i can post others to a b p also i would be happy to submit one to cerritos if someone wants to write me and tell me how i would prefer a picture with you in it since most motorcycles don t post and are rather similar looking i e all r s s are more alike than they are different it is the people that are ultimately more interesting from archive policy txt if you already have a picture in some machine readable format gif preferred you can ftp it to cerritos edu account anonymous password incoming binary mode and notify me by mail or mail it uuencoded to tanner cerritos edu please include a one or two line description for inclusion in aaareadme txt btw i have charlie smith s pictures available sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id interestingly i ve been to stanley id by motorcycle nice little town nice road getting there bruce bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	help on uk law please greetings all can anyone let me know status of uk law about riding motorcycles i used to ride one about years ago and never took my dot test one of a whole list of things i wished i had done when i was young but i have passed my car driving test i now travel from littlehampton to brighton every day and i m getting pissed off with the traffic road works i thinking about getting a cc bike don t laugh just to get streetwise and to take my test then to get a bigger one to cc now i have been told i don t have to do the cbt but what will i have to do to get a full licence thanks in advanced leigh leigh dodd engineering and applied science eaps university of sussex brighton bn qh uk phone ext fax janet leighd uk ac susx eaps internet leighd eaps susx ac uk
rec.motorcycles	personal problems was re so do any police ossifers read in article ltgnt innfpq earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes i can t haul my big dic around on my bike or is it a boast john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists did they ever put in any gas stations on us i rode through there in skipped a fillup at bryce canyon and rode miles before seeing a gas station at torrey awesome road i recall riding up a narrow ridge above feet bruce bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches in a previous article mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith says catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help okay here s what to do get a drill and a sanding disk use say a disk and go at it at a very low rpm if you don t have a drill try coarse steel wool and brake fluid dot has an uncanny knack for removing any paint imperfections oh i m not responsible for misuse or miapplication of either of these techniques dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article c bt wuvmd wustl edu brad thone c bt wuvmd writes if you haven t done it before it can be dangerous it takes some getting used to read ed s list yep if ed s list is over degrees the wind s too strong to ride ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si american degrees not european dod
rec.motorcycles	re black reflector tape in article rckk inngub cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes a few months ago in one the the motorcycle mags there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight and reflect in other colors at night to has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source terry mccandlish president of my local bmw club buckeye beemers sells this type of tape it comes as a strip approximately x and can be cut to sizes needed you can call terry at columbus ohio arnie
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article catnip berkeley ca us bandy catnip berkeley ca us andrew scott beals kc sss writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree the devil made me do it yeah i found beelzebub inside a worm yeah that s it actually it was vodka gordon s if i remember correctly i didn t even buy it of course that s probably the reason i drank so much of it that night never again andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes in article r qeb k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher wrote a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from to it faces stiff opposition in the senate recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result did they try to do the course before having a few drinks i don t see a senator that has is fat but driven around in a limo being a good driver no mater how many drinks he has had before jnm yeah really no shit like that jerk loch faircloth that couldn t win an election as a democrat so he switches to republican the year before this past election and takes terry sanford out with his bitch and moan campaigning typical of nc senate house gubner races i swear i d kick jesse helms in the head if i ever got the chance maybe then he d get a fucking clue as to how the rest of the world lives andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting you really expect a cop to answer these honestly first you gotta expect a cop to be honest that s another story andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model wow is that custom made i wish i could get chain drive for my slashfive so i too can do wheelies and be real squiddly andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles apparently the only place to take the msf course around here in nc is at a community college that woudl preclude some sort of state subsidation then no andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st and the vfr and i would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch thanks to dean for reading the schematics try it you ll like it be a bit careful doing this i used to balance the switch on my gs b avec cibie h insert so that both beams were on i eventually fried the main ignition switch as it wasn t designed to pass that sort of current ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr siemens co at mxcrew mx gud siemens co at the mx crew wrote sorry for my stupid question but what do you americans mean with shaft drives my dictionary knows only strange meanings like schaft stiel pfeil strahl welle deichsel schacht shaft bamboozle beat beguile burn or flame deceive hoax hoodwink drive campaign crusade push so shaft drive may be a campaign to decieve or a crusade of beguile efforts where are true to the spirit of this list wheel revolution swing crusaders of beguile are innefective in revolutions and they cannot swing either therefore shaft drives cannot do wheelies john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article c n u i y cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes so of the hp produced by my fj engine hp watts hp kilowatts is being dumped into leetle tiny o rings that s watts per o ring seems a little hot doncha think o chuck rogers car torreys att com so hey like does this work the other way if i was to like you know strap a generator to my fzjrr krx and route its output to the chain could i increase the horsepower meters a sec is pretty nice and all but i d still like to be able to blow away a goldwing without going to nitro dod xj j big maroon vf f l audace don t blame me i voted libertarian
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha vs honda opinions nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes i am in hte market for a new bike been without for a few years the two main bikes i m looking at seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx i am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda is chain insurance in fla is more costly than i thought so i am staying in this power range thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences a friend of mine who s probably reading this right now just bought a new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz i have been checking out bikes hoping for lowish seats for a few weeks a honda twinstar cc fit me well a honda hawk cc did not the kawasaki hb sb sh can t remember looked like it would fit me well but the price tag was way too large i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list please post this list or mail me one too patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax wheelies ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice is there an official dod products of choice list if so would the appropriate party please post it erc p s if its in the faq keep them to yourself i got plenty maybe i ll go recheck them now just to be sure
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article bbnv cq quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes but on a similar note for a while i drove a vw wesfalia this is their camper van conversion i found that other drivers of this same model would wave to me and i waved back maybe its because we were all driving a funny looking vehicle no it is more because van drivers need a little support for driving such underpowered pathetic and truly utilitarian vehicles me and my used to wave and be waved at all across the country between nh and co now that we live in so cal though i find you d have to damn near wave your arm off to keep up with all the van drivers this is truly vee dub heaven peace taffe mike taffe disclaim this mtaffe ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article c w w dpd dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes eat the peach two guys build a wall of death to alleviate boredom get mixed up with the ira in the process an excellent movie not essentially about motorcycles but a very poignant look at life in rural ireland dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re volvo attack in article bd apr bd uucp bd fluent dartmouth edu writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes where can i get rocket launchers for the vfr batf is having a fire sale in waco tx try there you might try the rec models rockets newsgroup interesting stuff some of it should probably be classified as artillery dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes silver dream racer frustrated brit club racer s buddy dies leaving him a built in garage revolutionary experimental gp bike brit club racer uses machine to beat bad american on bad japanese factory bike at british gp filmed at silverstone i believe pretty bad dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re magnetic tank bags what about disks won t it erase them if you re carrying them in the bag cathy cathy saum cs andrew cmu edu s negley ave yamaha seca xj pgh pa cl custom wooden tank studio mustang v dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious what we see is what we know but what we feel is who we are what we feel is what nobody can ever take away t m mcnally until your heart stops
rec.motorcycles	any used gsx r s for sale i recently sold my nighthawk in order to upgrade to a zippy little sport bike i am however partial to the bigger zippy bikes like the gsx r there is only one in my town for sale and he is not sure whether he wants to part with it or not please send me email if you would like to sell yours know of one for sale or could just offer details on the performance of yours even if you wouldn t sell i appreciate any help the hypeman pontiac se mercury topaz gs looking for a bike baby booom mrs baby booom gsx r under modification under construction cbr f she likes his hers vfr f
rec.motorcycles	zx help i need help getting my zx c to behave i ve managed to get the front suspension to be very happy but the rear sucks i can t do anything with it to make it feel ok the bike is very stable through the corners i think because i have the front just right but when the straights get bumpy the rear is torturous it feels like it actually amplifies the bumps and the damping doesn t seem to do anything in real life although you can tell the difference when the bike isn t moving i ve tried cm of sag from completeley unloaded but i don t know which way to go has anyone gotten the rear of this bike comfortable and if so what kind of settings esp what sag did you use i like to corner but i also would like my kidneys to remain intact this thing makes the new zx feel comfy rbarnes sdcc ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i hate the b the b can bite me
rec.motorcycles	re battery storage why not charge and store dry quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but i d throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says i m wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff allan hatcher ahatcher athena cs uga edu wrote well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr i don t generally consider police officers the enemy i hope you don t think bikers in general have that attitude stereotypes suck either way i ll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply in your state p s anyone got a nomex suit for sale you shouldn t get flamed for being a cop i can t promise you won t because there are jerks on this newsgroup same as any other but if you ve been lurking for a while you already know that you might get lots of flames if you try to convince people that you know more than them just because you have a badge and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it so have you ordered any official dod paraphenalia yet wristwatch bandana patches tell your boss your going undercover with a real badass biker gang bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re dyna s vs crane in article c qpzo hdq cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes i plan to switch to a single fire ignition in about a month and was curious if anyone has experience with the supposedly new crane single fire that competes with the dyna s the club wrench not the wench has done dyna s modules for several friends and i ll get one also unless a bunch of folks say the crane is better one guy just installed the mc power arc ignition but has not yet reported the results it was not a simple bolt in replacement as new mounting holes had to be drilled i recognize it s more fun to discuss why chris needed to change brands of penis enhancer but how bout some comments on single fire ignitions for a while i just installed a mc power arc ii and it seems to run great i also used mc coils and neither the ignition module or the coils required any new mounting holes to be drilled on my fxstc a little soldering and all was fine static timing was real easy to set too on the other side of the coin my local wrench whose opinion i invariably seek but don t always adopt thinks mc power arc is a piece of shit and says all them jap chips are gonna fail you one day needless to say he doesn t like any electronic ignition modules and recommends the dyna s system i think that s the one with the hall effect timing sensor s correct russ hughes fxstc dod e the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes n young
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes reminds me of a great editorial by bruce reeve a couple months ago in cycle canada he was so pissed off with cops pulling over speeders in dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day he decided to get revenge cruising on a factory loaner zzr test bike he noticed a cop had pulled over a motorist on an on or off ramp with almost no shoulder being a bright lad he hit his bike s kill switch just before passing the cop who happened to be bending towards the offending motorist there by exposing his glutes to the passing world with his ignition system now dead he pumped his throtle two or three times to fill his exhaust canister s with volatile raw fuel all it took was a stab at the kill switch to re light the ignition and send a flame in sargeant swell s direction i wonder if any cycle cops read cycle canada although i agree with the spirit of the action i do hope that the rider ponied up the or so it takes to replace the exhaust system he just destroyed the owner s manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way one more good reason for straight pipes or megaphones regards charles dod rz ps does anyone know if opti oils sells direct by the case load my loacl dealership is charging for a jug of injector oil and it s breaking me within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante wrote my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model wow is that custom made no it is the stock setup someone really ought to put an end to the confusion regarding bmw s chain drive boxers didn t someone post the faq on this some time ago in essence it describes the problem bmw is having with their decision to settle down to a shaft drive as a standard they vacilate and persist in reintroducing the chain drive in various models r c gosh well on with the crusade john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re zeno s countersteering paradox unveiled in article apr acfcluster nyu edu mullignj acfcluster nyu edu wrote therefore there is a point in time when even though my front wheel is turned to the right i must be going straight ahead the point when i go from the right turn to the left what you are trying to describe is that transition point where the front wheel actually reverses direction turns backwards john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re two beemer questions r gs in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe if the clutch is in then a large chunk of counter rotating mass is not rotating hence at a light reving makes it twist shaft effect is the rear end rising under power or the real problem getting lower to the road when the throttle is snapped shut say when you are cornering and the heads are real close to the road new gs bikes with the paralever shaft have almost no shaft effect i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion a little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence okay here are my questions any recommendations for a home made fairing i d like to keep the wind off my chest and perhaps my helmet for comfort at highway speeds mph yet don t want to a screw up the stability or b block my vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings i d like to make it myself out of plexiglas i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm it s a question of how long you spend at low rpm and how much you need the extra light at low rpm k and under they don t charge all that much if at all the alternators put out sufficient wattage it just that you need to be at k rpm to get it this is embarassing i m having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning i invariably flood the carbs then go in and read a section of the paper and then she starts right up is this a zen thing full choke open the gas taps hit the starter and ever so slightly blip the throttle it should fire cranking should be done with minimal throttle my r likes the throttles to be raised just a bit off idle it s an experience thing like zen it s hard to describe it can be hard to learn if you aren t paying atttention to the differences between success and failure especially if you get really pissed off and flatten the battery while trying to get it to run if my bike has been sitting for a few weeks i give it a short while to start if it doesn t i turn it off and wait a few minutes for things to vaporize in the fuel system and then it lights right off i ve got dual plugs which make it easier to start the hayne s manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol any particular brands of gas that are best additives the big fix is the bing carb upgrade kit it s good for a few mpg and the parts are alcohol proof the parts it replaces aren t alcohol proof as long as the bike isn t going to sit for long periods of time gasohol is nice since it helps keep ping away if your bike doesn t ping on cheap gas you ought to raise the compression half a smiley the bmw twins of the s and beyond have lowered compression to keep the epa happy dual plugs and higher compression give back a big chunk of the lost perfomance neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it neigh on every day most don t notice let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone ever done it what do i win ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for in article i n agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes motorcycles are not allowed on th mile drive at pebble beach what are there posted signs what do they cite you for they don t it s a closed access road you pay to get in if you don t have a resident sticker and they simply don t open the gates if you re on a bike ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result did they try to do the course before having a few drinks dunno the newpaper article i read didn t say i was wondering the same thing i rather doubt it ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson wrote well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient how about some citations or is this just impressionistic speculation on your part for years i ve been laboring under the delusion that chain drives were more efficient that shaft drives chain drives are also stronger ever seen a successful shaftie dragster no no flames please i ve got both kinds of drives john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re ignition problem snark bmerh bnr ca eric nelson writes my nighthawk has two related problems with the ignition system it won t start when on cold mornings c f or so i always need to give it gas when starting it even when using the clutch this all still happens after a tune up and a new battery any ideas on what could be wrong with the bike i think you have the choke starter jet blocked and even the idle one manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx calle alcala dr s madrid dod tel don t waste your time express it
rec.motorcycles	st time biker iso advice i m just starting out with motorcycles i ve read up on the subject a bit talked to many of my friends who own ride bikes and encourage me to do the same but when i ask about what kind of bike i should be looking at i get varied answers i m about large athletic build i suppose that would help to determine the size bike i d want i want something that s going to be fast and powerful enough to satisfy certain cravings once i m used to it i also want something that is not going to be like a bronc my first time out any ideas bill replys are prefered through e mail thanks in advance
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature warning warning may cause unpleasantness in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st and the vfr and i would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch it s a make before break type of switch if not required it ought to be for high low beams there might be a wee problem with this if you use both filaments at the same time the bulb is tossing out a great deal more heat than normal possibly enough to shorten it s life span my honda crx cage a cage that really wanted to be a bike had wimpy stock lights so we used to run around with both beams on made a mucho big difference until both low beam filaments died nearly simultaneously this was two weeks after finding out how nice it was to use both beams i replaced the lights with quartz halogen lights and that ended the problem neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	suzuki gr for sale article crossposted from sdnet forsale rec motocycle author was michael james posted on apr gmt i must sell my motorcycle it is a gr tempter it has k miles and runs well includes a cover and tank bag i m asking for it all e mail me if you want to take a look at it michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa h michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa still no neat sig oh well
rec.motorcycles	re what octane what about ethanol it s available here in corn country and its octane is rated at or and costs the same as normal octane eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu pm apr is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago i ve seen em but the real question is can one do a wheelie on a lead wing if so how high would the front wheel be off the ground graeme harrison there was a guy around here who would do them on an early pre fairing wing with a hannigan he would get it right up and ride a ways pretty intimidating sight he was real good he had to be i guess you wouldn t get away with chopping the throttle more than once jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc victor johnson on the thu apr gmt wibbled in rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt that s because they took the old vt engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk new twin or does that only fly for microsoft nt new technology i ve been at this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson also the bmw stuff k rs k kraut rs really slow i suppose that s how much you have to spend each week to keep the damn thing on the road nick the pissed off with his bike again biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes my first encounter with a dog chasing after my bike was on my first poker run a big german shepard ran out into the pack of bikes i was riding with and tried to bite the right leg of the guy riding in front of me he kicked the dog a couple of times we were all only going about mph and just made the dog angrier and got away by applying wfo and outrunning the dog who then started after yours truly at the time i had open drag pipes obnoxiously loud as hell and as soon as the dog was about feet away from the right side of my bike i pulled in the clutch and revved the motor up to about rpm and the roar of the pipes frightened the dog away probably made the dog s ears hurt like hell and he didn t come back for the rest of the bikers behind me either my second encounter was with an already deceased road kill dog i wasn t paying very close attention to the pavement when the car in front of me straddled the carcass i looked down just in time to see what i was about to run over so i just held onto the handlebars and freaked out both wheels went squarely over the dog s belly with a thump thump just like running over a piece of a x lumber the bike didn t lose any stability at all and i kept on going after i got to my destination i found bits of fur meat and blood stuck to the bottom of my motor and frame gross neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles crud deleted the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about you are missing out on a lot of neat old rides tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable butt butt then yu w nt be able t ee the car neak g up behind yu and p p a whhheeeeelllleeeee t d tchum and the chick dig it seriously though putting a helmet on a mirror is inadvisable because you are then resting the weight of the helmet on the fragile foam liner that is expected to cushion your noggin and once crushed that foam never pops back a variation of mirror hanging thing is what i do with the bike on the sidestand hey the centerstand is for maintenance i turn the wheel to the stop left and can hang the helmet by the chin bar on the right grip there is no crushable foam in the chin bar and it is pretty secure on there as long as the forks are locked if i have to leave the helmet with the parked bike and the bags aren t on full that is about the most stable place dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust hey the lone biker of the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses at night it s loud and lights up the whole underpass neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re funny thing happened on the way to the hon in article elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes and i see that for the past miles i ve been riding with my side stand down oops and who was it that insisted sidestand cutout switches were right up there with tachometers something like a curse from god ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article c qiwz djm cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while is not quite one week s beer money for me roid well know i know how you can afford a harley keith schauer texas instruments plain o texas cb custom dod in an insane society the sane man must appear insane ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions
rec.motorcycles	which is the better bike i am looking at the honda shadow and the intruder or what have you heard about these bikes also if i plan on doing long time riding are these twin v cruisers the best bikes to get if i dont want something massive like the goldwings
rec.motorcycles	re wing ding on wed apr gmt franks hercules cs uregina ca derek franks said franks this is my first post so no dod would you like to know what dod is if you do feel free to ask fill up your rtaraz wpi wpi edu is today tank and ex a good day go for a ride dod taurus pt af to die
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it bill ranck bill ranck vt edu hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid you know alan i really like this one tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes well as many a bored bike tourer can tell you the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean also known as leaning say you want to turn left severely confused rambling about the ground pushing but the front wheel has trail if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right hey there we are no hands counter steering contersteering refers to pushing the inside handlebar to effect a lean no hands countersteering is an oxymoron ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	bub pipes live free with variable loudness after failing my state of new hampshire noise gestapo test with my hd slash cut pipes i installed my new bubs which i had been planning to do anyway went to a different in spection station and passed with no problem at about db two points first i don t think the first dude did the noise test correctly holding the meter close to his body probably caused a high reading and doing it inside the garage with the door closed undoubtedly enhanced the db level so if any other nh riders need to get this done make sure the inspection is done outdoors with the meter held well away from the body second these bub pipes are bloody terrific at low revs or cruising through town they as quiet as the stock pipes but have a sound thats a more throaty purring rumble when you open her up to rpm they emit a wonderfully satisfying rumbling roar best of both worlds russ hughes fxstc dod e the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes n young
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article apr microsoft com patlo microsoft com pat loughery writes also remember that it s much more draining and tiring to ride up than by yourself because you re concentrating on much more and in the zen of the moment less remember this the first few times i pillioned someone whose safety was a great concern to me as opposed to brothers etc i almost got us both killed on several occasions i was surprised to discover that it is much safer to just drive than to distract yourself by trying to be unusually cautious and concerned abruptly adopting a novel set of thought patterns and riding strategies while piloting a bike is just asking for trouble michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha vs honda opinions in a previous article phj remus rutgers edu p ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes a friend of mine who s probably reading this right now just bought a new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu sure don t know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn t a virago i ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed obviously the new bike was modified as the stock machine is simple to work on watching for imitators lloyd aa freenet carleton ca carr carr uranus dgrc doc ca dod ve fhc ve osq amrp org eon on can ca
rec.motorcycles	re battery storage why not charge and store dry in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mfox nyx cs du edu mark fox says quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but i d throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says i m wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox makes sense to me after all when steel is manufactured and stored they put oil on it so it won t rust logicaly when you store your bike you must strip the paint and put oil on the metal to prevent rus
rec.motorcycles	re dogs ooooooopsssss for a second there i thought i was in rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog we re not hell i was wondering why there was all the pointless woffle about motorcycles so how do i find rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog i dont think our system takes it
rec.motorcycles	re advantages of slip ons in article apr kronos arc nasa gov dschlot pioneer arc nasa gov dave schlotthauer writes quick question what are the advantages of slip on s versus your stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems i don t see many people using slip on s but they are heavily advertised and half as expensive thanks dave cost is lower than oem replacements and they weigh less also in most instances you do not have to rejet the carburetors to get a little more performance i replaced my oem canister with an ontario systems slip on the mid range performance is better but i also notice a slight stumble at k rpm after talking to kaz yoshima the developer and manufacturer of the slip on he thinks i might need larger pilot idle jets was not suppose to but maybe where i live makes a difference altitude barometric pressure anyway besides that minor glitch i like the slip on performance and the sound which is louder than stock but not loud enough to annoy folks the ontario slip on use some sort of sound baffling technique to reduce the sound at full throttle just remember every bike is a tuned system when you change the intake or exhaust characteristics beyond the allowable delta of the manufacturer you may have to change other areas to compensate like a complete change of the exhaust system header and muffler changes the exhaust characteristic to the point which re jetting is required to compensate for the new engine breathing pumping profile talk with the folks who make the slip on you intend to use and ask them if they have used it on your particular bike check with people who have the system also to see what they think about there slip on also as a last data point in sport rider s first issue did a review on a group of header and exhaust systems for the cbr f they also included as a side bar the ontario slip on the dyno showed an increase from stock of bhp at the rear wheel verses buyer beware of outrageous claimed increases in horse power it may have been true in the past but not today at cbr f allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx this bike is awesome and i m fearless let s go jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	re advantages of slip ons in article rigoj isl apple com paul thompson thompson apple com writes it sure would be nice if someone would start making replacements for oem exhausts that were would be cheaper but not louder i read about a supertrapp system called e a r that was supposed to be quiet enough to pass some european standards apparently it s not on the market yet yoshimura makes a few systems that are supposed to be kind of quiet they are also really light i m planning on getting one of these systems soon and will post the results mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	funny thing happened at the dmv the other day i saw this posted and it brings an interesting event to mind in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport i have to admit that i usually try to do so without the parental figure noticing i m afraid that the kid will get yelled at for associatign with anti societal types like us a few weeks ago i was in the dmv with ken i was standing in a mile long line waiting for some really bored looking person to fleece a bunch of people from some dough ken was sitting on a chair next to our helmets wondering why everybody there looked to be about the social calibur of people you would find at a laundromat when some young woman walked in who required our conferring attentions he came over and stood in line with me while we watched her fill out some forms and then we noticed a little kid about years old reach over the bench and touch our helmets one at a time i didn t particularly mind and neither did ken that the kid was touching our helmets that is but the helmets weren t on the most stable of platforms so ken scooted over there to resettle them and as soon as he touched the helmets mother of said child started shrieking at her kid you stay away from those you shit and whopped the tyke brutally about the head and shoulders i suppose it was our scary sex drugs and unix t shirts that sent such bouts of terror through her body
rec.motorcycles	re story respect in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but at the right place and time please let s not trample over other s rights and then bitch because they don t treat us like gods michael menard you know i wasn t even going to respond to this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn t prepared for the vast number of people that showed up i don t think michael s response was anti party but rather pro environmental i agree that you gotta let us hogs out to roam every once in awhile let s hope that next year oatman will be better prepared and that we all pick up after ourselves an asshole i ve already admitted i m an asshole many times on the net all my friends are assholes too lyrics to a new song so you want a dime to call someone that cares well i for one thought you told a good story even if you say you are an a hole we need more biker experiances written to news it s unfortunate that you got flamed for telling it but we all know this is a controversial group at any rate keep up the good work and continue to post stories jerry fxdl
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article f b w w fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required any help would be nice thank you for your support no the grand canyon is not too far away short side trips to kolob between cedar city and hurricane and pipe springs on the way from hurricane to the grand canyon may be interesting they are right off the highway pipe springs a small fort gives you real insight into just how the pioneers lived you have missed one major must see attraction cedar breaks in the mountains above cedar city take lots of film they have a reason for calling this kodachrome country natural bridges in the four corners area is also very scenic but may be too far off your route monument valley is spectacular but again may be too far away rich tweedie
rec.motorcycles	re inner tube in tyre safe speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote in article apr csdvax csd unsw edu au exb csdvax csd unsw edu au writes hello dod ers et al i need some advice on inner tubes in tubeless tyres barry manor dod spend the bucks and get a new tire dod technician dr speed not student i second the commend from dr speed get a new tire it s like your brakes something you don t want to take chances with i waited too long to take care of my front tire once and it went flat on me doing mph going down the grapevine towards bakersfield at that instance i would of given any amount of money for a new tire i m lucky to be here jerry
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yes it was the strangest series i have ever watched and the ending fit perfectly kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman only if you insist that the ticket prices cannot be adjusted downward or the taxes for the revenues to build the ballparks or the parking charges or the concession costs etc why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract bob vesterman so what will happen when the tv contract runs out considering networks have been losing money on it either ticket prices will go up or someones salary will be cut or perhaps the local community or merchindise could make up the difference baseball is probably facing a dramatic drop in income very soon and someone will suffer probably the fans from higher ticket prices but definitely someone
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris hey guys who is this jack morris fella only joking but try to lighten up will ya the season s only just started and everyone s apoplectic if all you statheads out there are trying to justify how morris is doing at the moment just remember that we re talking about a very small sample size there is a helluva long way to go so sit back and enjoy the ride tony
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants in article hpspdla spd hp com garyr hpspdla spd hp com gary rosen writes thomas miller am apr does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yeah it was real strange if you think the braves should be awarded the nl west title without actually having to play the games gary rosen i didn t say that did you say that wow i can t believe that anyone would think that the braves or any other team for that matter should get the title for free what a dolt that person would be if that was what they thought incredible thomas miller tmiller cimmeria gatech edu systems support specialist ii georgia tech network services and i looked and behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was death and hell followed with him
rec.sport.baseball	re hunter on dl klesko up steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes as a touter of braves prospects all i can say is that imo someone on the braves roster is about to become pipped it may not even be hunter but i think they ll have a problem getting klesko out of the lineup once he s in well this may be good news if klesko hits i d look for bream to be traded if possible or released since bream is also a lefthander hope klesko hits according to the atlanta paper bream will be the full time first baseman with klesko used as a late inning defensive replacement if bream is lifted for a pinch runner he d have to hit a homer in his first ab or win the game or do some other amazing thing to be rewarded with a start so he could even attempt to push hunter or bream out of the lineup kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games especially when it s coming from tv people has to something to do with advertising probably time wasted in the middle of an inning say by a batter stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves or by a pitcher walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts could otherwise be sold as advertising time heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes not at all i am talking about morris winning with toronto last year you are about to launch into a fantasy about the red jays and how toronto would have done with viola on their team viola didn t play for toronto last year morris did the problem with your nihilistic approach roger is that it takes all the sense out of the game by your line of reasoning if a guy hits into a double play with one out and the bases loaded there s no point in saying that that was a bad thing to do if his team won anyway or speculating on what might have happened if things had gone otherwise so the double play is merely an event that happened in the course of a game that was eventually won or lost for unknown reasons after all any speculation involves constructing a fantasy about what would have happened but didn t roger do you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall to the ceiling instead or are you willing to consider empirical evidence teams go to the post season when they win more games than anybody else in their division if they don t make the post season they don t win the series will you agree that winning a division is a useful intermediate goal in ring collecting if so you must agree that winning games is a useful intermediate goal towards winning the division and our disagreements come when we consider how to win games in your viewpoint as expressed winning games happens for reasons that cannot be analyzed while many of us are thinking things like base runners are good outs are bad and therefore walks are better than double plays with the bases loaded you are thinking things like it s a team game so perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious team dynamics that will cause the team to win today the result is that it becomes impossible to say anything about individual players perhaps atlanta would have won the series with me playing left field after all perhaps in some way my knowledge and personality would have helped the team more than my complete lack of skill would have hurt it therefore i could be an extremely valuable player did dave winfield have anything to do with the jays victory probably but how do you know if you replace him with andres galarraga perhaps the jays would have won perhaps they would have lost perhaps they would have defected to alpha centauri bearing in mind that the flying saucers would not have landed in mid season had winfield been dhing for toronto was babe ruth a good player he played on some ws winning teams but did he have anything to do with their success it is generally accepted that ernie banks was a good baseball player and jarvis brown and dan schatzeder weren t it seems to me that anybody who would deny this needs to provide the proof now we have observed things about baseball over the years both empirically and by looking at the rulebook it is necessary to score more runs than one s opponent to win the game so it would seem important to score runs and to prevent one s opponent from scoring runs are scored while a team is batting and an inning ends after the third out so it would seem that making outs is bad while hitting home runs is good players have tendencies to hit or pitch at certain levels and these are usually somewhat consistent from year to year we do use these statistics to predict winners and so do you to make some flat predictions barry bonds will have a higher obp slg than gene larkin this year the braves will finish ahead of the rockies in the standings the tigers will score more runs than the royals but will also give up more i would be astonished if any of these turned out to be false and i suspect so would you as a matter of fact i am pretty sure i can predict all the division winners this year given guesses per division and this is certainly better than random chance and almost statistically significant if you will admit that the rockies and mariners are unlikely to meet in the world series you must admit that there is some sort of way to measure likelihoods however fuzzy it is impossible for all other things to be equal so your fantasy is totally meaningless so how about real life person a robs a service station with two people in it using a automatic pistol gets and is convicted and sentenced for three years person b with a similar criminal record robs a service station with two people in it using a revolver gets and is convicted since they used two different types of handgun are comparisons totally meaningless say you drop a pencil to see if the gravity still works my cats are always testing this they don t trust me to pay the gravity bill on time you have never dropped a pencil at that exact time of the century before so all previous evidence is meaningless or would you be surprised if it flew out the window instead of hitting the desk david thornley who has no replica world series rings but does have tickets to the world series in the metrodome
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either consider a night game starting at pm est it was last year but cleveland showed what i thought was good sense in pushing it back i go and i m into it until pm minimum extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond i can t see my family that night at all if the next day is a workday i may have to bag that as well further the later the game goes the colder it gets on the shore of lake erie all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game if you say you don t care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don t care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don t have families and don t have to get up for work the next day rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right in article qv aginn ba shelley u washington edu tannerg hardy u washington edu glenn tanner writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr leland stanford edu dkeisen leland stanford edu dave eisen writes why did i get sucked into this in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious i guess you d be surprised to hear that us guys don t think so i would guess that a tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it i kind of doubt that even you agree with it sheesh i agree with you here dave anyone for starting rec sports idiots for guys like austin no but i am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let s reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement there is a school of thought that suggests that silence consent whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion which r s b is if you ve been reading r s b lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings alibet in an edited form it s making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don t read fine he s got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling now of course you don t have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don t post flamebait you don t have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace sheesh eric
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr th note saturday april th s scores should be sent out by this coming friday mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won san diego padres won colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets lost chicago cubs lost montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers won california angels lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox lost seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers lost toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers won cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles won yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros ppd chicago white sox chicago cubs rain boston red sox atlanta braves idle toronto blue jays cincinnati reds idle cleveland indians colorado rockies idle seattle mariners florida marlins idle detroit tigers los angeles dodgers idle baltimore orioles idle montreal expos idle california angels idle new york mets idle kansas city royals idle philadelphia philliesidle milwaukee brewers idle pittsburgh pirates idle minnesota twins idle st louis cardinals idle new york yankees idle san francisco giants idle oakland athletics idle san diego padres idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	mlb scores correction there is a correction to the note i posted for today s update this is how it read note saturday april th s scores should be sent out by this coming friday of course last saturday was april th people who requested those scores should receive them by friday the rd thanks joe hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re devon white why is he not playing in article c r rt fir helios physics utoronto ca wyllie helios physics utoronto ca andrew wyllie writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca hsslee bnr ca writes devon white has not been in the blue jays line up lately does anybody know why he is not playing during one of the games last week wednesday both white and sprauge were not playing because they had the flu i guess white is probably still sick i hope white gets back in the lineup soon watching darrin jackson play center is painful andrew i heard he had a strained abdominal muscle or something like that dan brekke
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey said i suppose a foul ball machine like brett butler is pretty valuable but i d rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball now this is a legitimate point baseball is entertainment and i have no quarrel with people who find certain styles of play more entertaining than others regardless of their win value personally i m a huge fan of the slug bunt i doubt it s a high percentage play but i get a big kick out of it i am willing to live with the bad consequences in exchange for the fun of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye i m not sure i used to think this was true but more and more i m becoming convinced that it s the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it a lot let s break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk a lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white etc as far as i can tell all the categories are full it really looks like the two are independent nobody could possibly be afraid of craig grebeck at the plate and yet he walks quite a lot part of that undoubtedly is being small of stature but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort of target at least times out of randy milligan is an even better example he s only shown noticeable power for one partial season but he walks all over the place despite his huge strike zone david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	predicted runs from lineup some time back in this newsgroup i seem to recall a thread about predicting the runs a given lineup of batters could be expected to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these hitters obp slg avg bat length hat size day of the week weather conditions etc anyway was i dreaming or is there some such animal my apologies if this has been covered recently i probably get to read of the articles posted here no time many thanks in advance scotty m scott walsh scottwa pogo wv tek com tektronix inc graphics printing imaging products ibd
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he d been thrown out and gant had a legitimate beef about the pitch that was called a strike a reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box so what if the previous strike call was bogus it s in the past it can t be changed get back in there and deal with the next pitch sorry sherri but i can t agree with this particular incident while i m all for cutting down the number of chain rattles and other examples of rampant hargroving there was a difference here since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers usually nothing happens unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations it s not as if gant was in hirschbeck s face gant said something about the call stepped out of the box and turned away from hirschbeck as a hitter alibet of little consequence but with a decent eye whenever receiving the short end of the stick on a questionable call i d want a moment or two out of the box if for no other reason than to rethink the strike zone based on the experience of the last pitch and if i was really angry at the ump i d rather turn away and catch my breath than turn to him and say something that might get me tossed especially at a key moment in the game when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player i was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game it s a small sample size but based on what i saw in that game mark hirschbeck has a hair trigger temper and a need to play god on the field not good qualities for an umpire i will keep my eyes open for future appearances of hirschbeck in the future in order to improve my sample size imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was a bad game for the umpire eric roush
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position makes to his team s victory and since we cannot make that measure with complete confidence of objectivity and since there is no absolutely necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement i submit to you that it is pointless if a gm is trying to put together a winning team he might consider era he might consider attitude he might consider past performance in key situations but what he is looking for is not the player that he considers the best the gm is looking for the player he thinks can help his team win we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make a pretty good estimate i won t claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should a team that has just won it all ever replace a single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find a player a little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts shawn go rangers
rec.sport.baseball	phils spot on espn a few weeks ago i posted about the phillies team personalities did anyone see the espn feature on the phils on monday night john kruk had a great line he was talking about people on the team always playing and not sitting out because of a minor injury he said if they do they know we ll kick their ass the time i saw in was in the afternoon and it was not bleeped when i saw it at they bleeped ass mitch williams talked about the team being a bunch of throwaways from other teams and that is why they are so close kruk said that they all get along this year last year he said they hated the pitchers i assume he was joking but he always keeps a straight face when he talks oh what a team rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	re ottawa lynx info wanted cchb musict mcgill ca cchb writes the current roster of the lynx someone on the minor league mailing list probably does home game schedule of the lynx i do but i don t have time to type the whole thing in i don t mind looking up specific date ranges or individual games when i can but there are limits besides this stuff is easy to find baseball america puts out a book called the directory it s us has every team s data and schedule in it if i were to type in the whole scheudle i d just be spending a lot of time infringing on their copyright folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list see the signature and folks who are tracking down team schedules should chec out the ba directory you can order it from i find it indispenable chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes the situation with the giants bleachers is a case in point for the need for a commissioner okay i m curious why are you expectin the commissioner to fly in and stand on the pitchers mound to yell at the fans to sit down or what chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	i am right no i am right was re bob knepper was damn right in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article qv aginn ba shelley u washington edu tannerg hardy u washington edu glenn tanner writes no but i am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let s reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself funny i didn t realize mr tanner brought up bob knepper v pam postema in the first place thought it was someone named jacobs if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement why if a statement is truly idiotic and is universally thought so the challenge is a waste of panting further challenges that have nothing yes nothing to do with baseball are wasting others time you got a problem with what bob knepper thinks let s hear it in some sort of categorical manner actually i question whether either knepper or postema aren t old news at this point although what i have read of postema s book is interesting there is a school of thought that suggests that silence consent i agree this far whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion sez you if you ve been reading r s b lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form it s making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post that does not come out in what you say down the road here in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don t read fine he s got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling yo even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form you want them to hear you talk like this don t you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think you like to do the same or do you want them to think you re some politically correct demagogue who s oh so sensitive ho hum plus you re here limiting free speech to some obscure newsgroup that i don t read what bs you got a problem with what jacobs says what knepper thinks all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas more and better speech yours is the easy way out as for knepper ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about any darn thing that pops in their heads when a mike is shoved in front of them you know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn t pre prepared they know knepper has controversial ideas about women they pop some question about postema an interesting related question would be whether the two ever appeared in the same game off the top of my head i guess no if my guess is right knepper popped off about something that had nothing to do with him and postema gets a book for it and he doesn t now of course you don t have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don t post flamebait you don t have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace now why didn t i think of that rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he s still light hitting but baseball managers don t think so they think he like omar moreno before him is a perfect leadoff man awesome defense well yeah on the other hand for the first few years of his career he looked like herb washington dan gladden doesn t seem to suck defensively either darnell coles he s still around because of his when he hit hr yeah and how many of the white guys played one year into a long career it s actually not an uncommon phenomenon and how long a guy hangs around based on one good year seems like a reasonable question to explore on a racial basis billy hatcher we ll see if he s still around in for his tenth year hey he plays for lou gorman doesn t he ok so it s eight years ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn t perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting good point on cedeno otoh i haven t seen that extensive list of year dan gladdens either there really aren t that many players altogether who hang around for years even if they re reasonably good mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com may you live in interesting times chinese curse
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box a reasonable umpire would have recognized that ron gant was disturbed with the call a reasonable umpire would have realized that there was a run game in progress with two outs in the ninth what ron gant did was try to regain his composure what a normal baseball player would have done would have been to get into a heated argument with the umpire and since you can t argue balls and strikes he would have been ejected from the game ron gant by trying to avoid such a conflict was penalized for showing some restraint incidentally a reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been a ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help finally the entire game was pretty much a mockery of the so called efforts to speed up the game the game was played very quickly it was just at hours when the stuff happened in the ninth and the only delays in the entire game had been the result of actions by the umpires other than deion having to clean garbage off the field econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in c sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make a pretty good estimate i won t claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should a team that has just won it all ever replace a single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find a player a little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs would griffin then be better than larkin baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no i am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can t rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so i cannot say that olerud is less of a player cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	how to speed up games marginally realistic you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or a ball is called don t grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is a strike mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes just a refresher the baseballs came on the field during sunday s slugfest when a giant s patron refused to throw an atlanta hr back the garbage started hitting the field well before the sunday game it started on thursday or friday i can t recall which games i didn t watch on tbs deion was getting pelted with trash the whole time it seemed the announcers talked about the change in the seating in the bleachers and how that made it easier for the events that transpired i actually thought at the start of the sunday slugfest that since it was a sunday daygame the crowd would be a little different more refined surprise econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it games are longer now for several reasons stuff deleted maybe i am just a ne er do well with nothing better to do but i would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you well i don t want shorter games per se but i would like for them to stop wasting so much time during games the gant incident is a perfect example when a guy comes to the plate he should be up there to hit not show off or show up the umpire which is clearly what gant was doing i feel like writing a fan letter to hirschbeck mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com for purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will henri frederick amile
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there wait a minute i could swear that varsho is white sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are bill james is however very closely tied to stats sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes argument over reasonable players and umpires deleted incidentally a reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been a ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help yes but the baseball rules say you can only appeal a ball and not a strike there was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal once he called it a strike the call could not be changed i thought that the umpire did the right thing pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans i e the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don t like to watch baseball on t v say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find a way to shorten the games for wider t v appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with a solution to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get a commisioner now since it s obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in nebraska off soapbox steve steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i m gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or a ball is called don t grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is a strike mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i ve only ever seen this called once back around i think that steve carlton was pitching on the other hand i am not sure how much effect this would have it seems that most of the time lost is when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this i have wondered why a pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let s be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes does he really need more pitches pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either i wonder why you say that i don t see why having a spouse and or kids would have anything to do with it it might if you brought your kids to the game and wanted them to get home in time to get to bed at a reasonable hour in which case i d probably decide to take my kids to games on weekends as many people do or else be prepared to leave the game early but from what you say later on you don t bring your kids or your spouse to the game as it happens i have a husband but no kids and my husband usually attends games with me extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond i can t see my family that night at all if the next day is a workday i may have to bag that as well i can see it s a problem if you don t bring your wife to the ballgame but that s a problem even if the game goes a trim hours as far as bagging work the next day i don t really understand why that s necessary unless going to a game also means that you consume vast quantities of beer i note that this is the case for many guys if you don t think you can get up to go to work after a long evening out then don t have long evenings out during the week all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game if you say you don t care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don t care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don t have families and don t have to get up for work the next day look if i pay between and apiece for tickets plus for parking plus spending my time and energy driving to and from boston plus spending additional money on concessions etc at the ballpark then i see going to a game as a considerable investment of time and money i can t afford to go to a lot of games hence going to a game is a big deal like going to a play or an opera maybe you have more money than i do and can go to games all year long so it s not such a big deal for you but i m not interested in having games sped up any more than i want to have die walkure cut down to a convenient weeknight version of two hours if i felt that going to a night game during the week would interfere with my family life or my work life then i d choose to go to a weekend game impo heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i wholeheartedly endorse it i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it haven t been to many a s games have you seriously i don t mind a baseball game that lasts a long time if it lasts a long time because there is good baseball being played however i don t like games that take hours because there s a lot of dead time going on in that game i don t find anything exciting about watching batter or pitcher wander around between pitches or watching the catcher make a slow walk to the mound or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason whitey herzog used to be the master of this the game could be way out of reach and he d still be making switches for platoon advantage i want to see the game not people standing around i don t really enjoy watching nfl football games in person for example because there s so much dead time you don t really notice how much dead time there is if you watch it on television because they re busy showing you replays i don t like that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game the ncaa has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next year they re going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next year and they re going to a second clock there s also a difference in how tolerant i am of long games if i m watching them on the tube and if i m going there in person for me going to an a s game has become a major commitment of time one that i m not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the a s revenue from me sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn t use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations everyone was told of the new emphasis on speeding up games the rule that hirschbeck invoked has been in the books a long time it s not as if gant was in hirschbeck s face nobody including hirschbeck ever said he was when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play that s your perhaps colored by your partisanship of the braves perception hirschbeck s view was that gant was heading off for a long walk and in accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games up directed him into the batter s box gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch the point is based on the rulebook and the umpires instructions it was not an unreasonable request the braves were already upset imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was a bad game for the umpire had gant done as instructed you wouldn t have remembered the name of the umpire sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs no i do not find this conceivable i also cannot conceive of the possibility that there is any hypothetical team which morris would help more than clemens would griffin then be better than larkin given your premise yes but you are alone in your ability to conceive of that premise valentine
rec.sport.baseball	a modest request i am finding the volume of stuff on rec sport baseball overwhelming ca posts day an effect of this is that a backlog builds up and many posts get dumped from my system i could probably fix that but don t have the time to read them all in any event my guess is that mine is a common problem i have some ideas that would help each person generally post no more than one article day limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced in posts don t post mindless woofs or anti woofs e g the jays are best or the jays suck don t respond to mindless posts e g jack morris is a better pitcher than frank viola because he s won a world series i know that you can use the n key to get by these posts but they bump interesting posts from my disk use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier to read name jim rising mail dept zoology univ toronto toronto ontario canada m s a uucp uunet attcan utzoo rising bitnet rising zoo utoronto ca
rec.sport.baseball	the mystery of ron gant o any of you experts want to analyze ron gant is his early season slump because he is still swinging his bat the way he was last year trying to hit to all fields etc or has he changed his swing back to the old gant and is just in a small early season slump is his spot int he lineup even secure especially the way he has been hitting msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes i always thought that a reasonable means of measuring value between players was to attempt to determine if a team would trade one for another the major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age even if morris were performing as well as clemens right now and were likely to this season nobody would trade clemens for morris straight up because clemens has more of his career left sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants a case study of their weaknesses in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes sunday s game exposed the weaknesses of both teams quite clearly and that the braves are vulnerable braves weaknesses a weak defense a couple of bond s doubles and a bloop by clayton would ve been caught by a better outfield b weak bullpen ha ha their closers are bedrosian and howell not an astute observation this is a straw bullpen the lefties stanton mercker are strong and wohlers is down learning a new pitch the bullpen is fine probably superior c over reliance on pendleton a pendleton slump becomes a team slump also false gant nixon justice hunter blauser present a decent enough offense everyone is slumping except blauser not just pendleton btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	texas rangers roster please help i need a little help from a texas rangers expert i was at yankee stadium sunday texas rout with my kids we wandered out to the outfield during rangers batting practice and i caught a ball tossed into the stands actually wrestled some guy a bit i might add by on the rangers who is he looked like a bullpen assistant type youngish i think he was not in the roster listed in the yankee scorecard any ideas please e mail as i haven t been reading r s b regularly thanks bob name bob dorin company kendall square research email dorin ksr com ksr dorin
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic pablo a iglesias pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu wrote i have wondered why a pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let s be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes does he really need more pitches if the relief pitcher didn t get pitches there wouldn t be enough time to play hit the road jack the iron city relief pitcher commercial the announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the previous one from the game a detailed biography both personal and statistical of the new guy throwing his pitches get really cool super slo mo pictures for diamond vision to put up by said pitchers name and stats caleb
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players let s not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes manuel lee is better than jeff blauser again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team i would not be wearing a ring nor would he if however i were on manny lee s team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays the toronto blue jays i might well be wearing a ring not that that s such a big deal everybody got a ws ring from the jays win that s the whole point isn t it clemens didn t get a ring but morris did in the same way the blue jays did not win because jack morris was on the team jack morris won because he was on the blue jays it was a team effort not an individual one exactly and morris was part of the team would the jays have won with clemens we will never know but we do know that the jays won with morris so how could you possibly say that clemens had a better year no pitcher in baseball could have had a better year than morris had last year cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	the real way to speed up ballgames the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams for all players who participated in the game offer for each minutes less than hours the game took i e if the game only took hours each player gets a bonus of for all pitchers throwing or more full innings in the game extrapolate the number of pitches or attempted pickoffs to the number they would have thrown in a full innings and offer for each number less than if the pitcher throws a complete game with pitches and throws to first he would get i suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says i want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach fl censorship is the only form of obscenity wait i forgot government tobacco subsidies
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game nl chicago wait til next years new york bunch of egos with no chemistrys philedelphia overacheivers until mitch williams blows games pittsburg cheapskates montreal canadiens love that name st louis cardinals how boring miami marlins try telling tampa stpete that the marlins are florida s san diego she s going down men and children firsters los angeles disables listers san francisco get past number five and you are fines cincinatti underacheivers atlanta bills colorado pitching is of baseballers houston astonomicals al new york steinbrenners boston wow we re in firsters cleveland good hit no pitchers detroit lions hey they score every game also toronto god does jack morris stinkers baltimore we have a great park and a bankrupt owners milwaukee don t drink the water drink the beer insteaders kansas city oh god not againers oakland gezz did the eck blow a saves texas bashers california we won t win but we ll sure as hell tryers seattle griffeys chicago we l find a way to lose agains minnesota marshmallow domers msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article apr r node hub org shadow r node hub org jay chu writes jackson is a bum and i thought the jays were smart to get rid of gruber now we get equally bad i m frustrated pat gillick is over rated sure he did some good moves in the past but releasing wells although his temper sucks but he s better than morris stewart dayley if the jays were dumping salaries to keep mill jackson dayley should be the one to go before wells of course they dumped dayley but it s too late since dayley s salary was guarenteed with wells the jays were only on the hook for of it give jackson a break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded wells was already claimed by the tigers era with wins also the jimmy key and winfield situations pissed the hell outta me would you see a championship club wanting to repeat so badly wanted to have such a i would rather have molitor than winfield winfield was just hogging all the credit and he was trying to soak the jays for a year guarenteed contract great turnover no way look at the pittsburg penguins they got some aging players but didn t make stupid trades to dump them cuz the fans love those players and they are still the core of the team anyways i just want to say that if the jays go below this season i won t be surprised i m not jumping off the bandwagon i m just talking smart baseball no matter what i m still going to see most of the jays games even though i m damn frustrated the jays pitching can only get better molitor and alomar haven t hit anything yet and the jays are still over gerald
rec.sport.baseball	let s play the name game how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers
rec.sport.baseball	re red sox mailing list query in article sfoixme wb qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw andrew cmu edu writes a friend in england is looking for a red sox mailing list if you know of such a list could you please send me mail with some info thank you bosox request world std com to mail to the list bosox world std com steve
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however i would take back a few moves the jim abbott trade i think abbott is not only an inspirational person but a great pitcher also he could win the cy young this year but he won t because the right side of the yanks infield isn t good enough so why was this not a good trade jt snow how many rookies have been able to step in and immediately have the impact that he has had so far on the angels i know it s early but if you ve seen this kid hit field or talk you can just tell that he is going to be a tremendous player the yanks should have kept him what about mattingly you ask well it s great that the yanks have taken care of him and remained loyal but he s years older than snow and just doesn t have the same bat speed as before his back injury it s a shame but as a yankee fan who wants to see the best yankee team i d take snow over mattingly at first the yanks also gave up two promising propects with snow for abbott besides with domingo jean brien taylor wickman militello and sterling hitchcock they are just loaded with propects i know abbotts only but this was too much to give up i believe george forced this trade because he believes and he s right that abbott will be a big hit in ny however i d like to see the yankees build a baseball team not an amusement show wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers danny tartabull yes he s put up some tremendous numbers and it s nice to think about what he could do if he were ever healthy all year but he never is we should expect games max out of him meanwhile gerald williams is playing at columbus and paul o neil is playing left field i believe o neil led nl outfielders in assists last year and tartabull is a poor defensive outfielder what i m basically getting at is the yanks are moving in the right direction but are not ready to win a pennent this year they should at the gm level be planning for a or world series this means getting the younger players experience in the majors now so they will be ready in a year or two i m afraid that all this stuff wreaks of george steinbrenner certainly the boggs deal was all george it looks like george is planning the right mix of veterans and young players to win a world series now the veterans are always available and can be added at any time like boston did this year develop the young players first then add the one or two veterans or in the yankees case just keep them let s all us yankee fans hope that george doesn t dismantle the terrific job stick and company have done building the yankee organization back into one of respect i m really afraid that he will trade whoever it takes to patch holes today relief pitching for example george must realize that the yankees rebuilding process is still one or two years away have patience george and we will all enjoy the future fire bucky and trade the kids and it s baseball hell for all loyal yankee fans for a long time sam i m not militello or millitello mandelbaum
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking i don t think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price i m sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on a team by team basis when the tv money dries up franchises will be seeking to supplant the lost revenues from alternative sources one of the best sources may be ticket sales example the dodgers the dodgers can count on a strong base of season ticket sales and probably believe that they have the ability to raise prices without hindering revenues i certainly think that is true example the padres they will be lucky to average fans a game this year if they raise prices less if they want to increase their overall revenue base the best thing they can do is put a winning team on the field but given that won t happen it won t they can probably make more money by lowering ticket prices and running frequent promotions will they do that i have no idea but they won t increase prices because it won t work for them even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract the only strange powers at work here are the forces of the market place each team s market is somewhat different and each owner is going to be faced with a unique set of circumstances about how to deal with those market forces as a buiness manager i would never want to lower my prices but sometimes that strategy is necessary and sometimes it works you have to consider everything if you want continued success the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes haven t been to many a s games have you there s also a difference in how tolerant i am of long games if i m watching them on the tube and if i m going there in person for me going to an a s game has become a major commitment of time one that i m not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the a s revenue from me i stopped going to a s games some years ago while i still lived inthe bay area for exactly this reason i believe the length of their games has been institutionalized by larussa duncan they encourage their pitchers to be overly deliberate to throw to first often to study the catchers signals and so on and almost every a s hitter takes a step out of the box after every pitch this is not imo a coincidence this is planned and i hate it as for the gant situation i did not see the game or the replays but i do wonder what if gant had requested a time out would hirschbeck have been required to give it to him could he have denied the requst for all he the ump knew gant could have had dirt in his eye mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	moe berg npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary which i know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia s wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn t shoot him i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but i don t know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn t mention any kind of a book she s writing i d certainly buy it in case you re wondering about baseball relevance berg was a longtime mlb backup catcher he was a member of an mlb all star team that toured japan in presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because he was one of the few americans much less mlb players who spoke japanese photos he took of tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids according to mccarthy dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	game length was re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it games are longer now for several reasons more pitching changes more basestealing and throws to first etc i think a very small factor is the increased time it takes jose canseco deion sanders insert fancy showboat ballplayer here to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the batter s box my impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this an issue because they like shorter games they get to head back to hotel bar eat steaks get drunk tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase stewardesses around the bar sure they want the game over with print journalists have a slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games they have deadlines the espn guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy they constantly harp on this primarily because they often have to work late when the game goes longer than maybe i am just a ne er do well with nothing better to do but i would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you as a parenthetical note it seems the league is in any case fighting a losing battle this year the increased offense thus far will certainly spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly nick flynn
rec.sport.baseball	re dopson pitches first shutout red sox win cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes john dopson pitched his first major league shutout as the red sox beat the white sox all sox runs came in the th inning which featured big hits from among others vaughan and greenwell the sox are now and the first team in the majors to win games yes it ll never last but god it s good while it s here someone told me this game started at cdt is this true who in their right mind would go to a game on monday at am well there s a holiday in massachusetts called patriots day three things happen on patriots day almost all businesses are closed the sox play a morning game and they run the boston marathon mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com there is nothing so deadly as not to hold up to people the opportunity to do great and wonderful things if we wish to stimulate them in an active way dr harold urey nobel laureate in chemistry
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye this comes up periodically and i just don t get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that s not a potential great example of what you re talking about then i don t know what is now let s look at what happens when mcgwire doesn t walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit a single of the time he hit a double of the time he hit a homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs i would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of then there are guys like alex cole who has a career obp even though he s never had a batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit a single home run yep that s right he s never hit a homer in ab s through the end of who d be afraid to throw a strike to him mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com i ve never been prejudiced by sex entertained yes but never prejudiced justice dan snow walter matthau
rec.sport.baseball	mvp revisited tim shippert recently posted summaries of last year s defensive average stats in terms of the linear weights estimated run value of defensive performances compared to league average i ve combined those with my position adjusted mlv numbers to come up with first approximation total run values for players last year we can use these as a springboard for reconsideration of the mvp award major caveats these numbers include no defensive park adjustment so if san diego really is just a question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the infield that will cause some inaccuracies the offensive numbers are position adjusted but not park adjusted so we have to deflate some and inflate others to be fair finally we still don t know what to do about catchers and i have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions of tony phillips and bip roberts having said that there are still some surprises let s look national league first all numbers in total runs contributed over the season player offense defense total sandberg bonds walker justice daulton larkin grace as i see it these are the legitimate mvp candidates from last season if you deflate sandberg s offense a wee bit for playing in wrigley you get essentially a dead heat had bonds been his usual defensive self it wouldn t have been close but that apparently wasn t the case darren daulton needs or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference and i couldn t tell you whether that s easy or impossible a good case could be made for any of sandberg bonds or daulton as top dude my personal vote bonds sandberg daulton walker justice in the american league player offense defense total ventura martinez b anderson thomas r henderson raines tettleton ok let s see a show of hands how many of you picked robin ventura as top player in the al last year i certainly didn t but i d have a hard time arguing against him at this point yes i know these numbers are only approximate but that s a big gap between him and the guy also those of you who thought rickey henderson stank last year are out of your minds once again there s a catcher in the ointment if calling a game is as important as it might be runs is easy to make up or give away take a guess folks i don t think we can do any better than that my personal vote excluding pitchers ventura tettleton anderson martinez henderson i m a big frank thomas fan but i have to admit to a bias in favor of balanced offensive defensive contribution which should have a higher leverage in w l record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with negative defense for the record carlos baerga roberto alomar forget it it s a wash let me also take this opportunity to admit that i was grossly wrong regarding don mattingly s defense this past season don recovered brilliantly from his weak and to end up with mattingly runs which is clearly an above average first baseman however it s still runs behind mark mcgwire runs behind frank thomas and runs behind john olerud on the other hand it s ahead of rafael palmeiro cecil fielder and every other al first baseman not yet mentioned david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	red sox choke contest to encourage the great tradition of red sox negativism i am having a contest to predict the magnitude of the sox fall from their current heights you must decide first whether the sox will be at again at any time during this year then you must predict either their record the first time they re at if they are or their final record if they stay above the rest of the year so valentine s earlier prediction would go as resend it if you were serious val espn pointed out last night that the last sox start better than this was in when they finished in sixth place so email me your guess either at barring cs washington edu or directly replying to this post entries close pm pdt on wed apr dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it s true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don t become extra long quickly pitched games can grab and hold your attention much better bring back the two hour baseball game and the three and a half hour golf game with it michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that a walk or a hit by pitch bob vesterman a hbp but it reminds of my favorite apochryphal sp don drysdale story when ordered to intentionally walk a batter who had hot dogged on him in two previous at bats drysdale reared back with the first pitch and drilled him right in the ribs his manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled what did you do that for drysdale growled back what are you complaining for i saved you three pitches incidentally if this is true i d love to know the other people involved ted kury one man stands and the wall cracks and the wall suny at buffalo cracks and the wall cracks and the wall comes dept of economics crumbling down anthrax
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanova huckabay said baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite but gary for certain sofa tubers like myself this is an advantage i can watch the pirates on kbl the mets on wwor the braves on tbs and the mediots on espn at the same time without missing anything if something impressive happens i ll catch the replay so i see essentially games in hours instead of game in hours what a deal insert smileys as desired david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line yes morris is crapping out big time this year but let s not change history to suit the present btw i think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed from where i sit i ll let others have the excellent players i ll settle for good enough and the ring ditto joe leonard jle world std com eddie
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare give jackson a break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse i think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris v clemens ws ring string yet at first i was sad to see derek go still anticipating all of the talent they raved about at the beginning of last season i m glad to see him faring well for the padres though eric
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants a case study of their weaknesses in article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi no brian s hurt his hand i think he started saturday s game but was taken out it s far too early to populate the dog house although bedrock was seen with a milkbone read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re moe berg barring cs washington edu david barrington writes npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary which i know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia s wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn t shoot him i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but i don t know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn t mention any kind of a book she s writing i d certainly buy it dave mb there is a great book out called they also served which is about the ballplayers during wwii there is some info on berg in there it also has info on pete gray one armed outfielder and other players of the era because of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the draft for medical reasons there are some very interesting stories in the book it is very well written and i would suggest reading it to anyone with an interest in baseball rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	seeking all star game info ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow i m very interested in finding out how i might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and i know it would be a great thing for them to attend the game i went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as a small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although i m now in the sf bay area i d love to be able to treat my folks to this game it s absolutely the last chance they d ever have to attend this g ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i remember a post from last year indicating that a pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work i don t remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that a pitch clock was inevitable how would a pitch clock work on throws to first another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite i too find myself surfing when i know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x david madden
rec.sport.baseball	re cardinals mailing list in article poe husc harvard edu poe husc harvard edu leslie poe writes likewise i would love to know about a cardinals mailing list please e mail me if you have any information thanks a lot les poe poe husc harvard edu this is the fifth request to find out about a cardinals mailing list it looks like one does not exist if anyone has the initiative creating a list might be a worthwhile activity sam passer
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in c sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes some comments deleted for bandwidth god knows we need it baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no i am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can t rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so i cannot say that olerud is less of a player ok roger here s a question for you say you are running an expansion team you don t have a team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn t protect alfredo who would you pick i can t believe i m getting involved in this john cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	re the real way to speed up ballgames in article tom apr amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams details deleted i suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says i want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses oh great we fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games that we don t want to see sped up terrific oh i forgot checking off that box to finance presidential campaigns doesn t cost us taxpayers anything do you believe in the tooth fairy too the beastmaster sorry i hate to be so sarcastic on such a beautiful day mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes there is absolutely positively quite verifiably no causation that runs from salaries to ticket prices the two are separable decisions the owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs they raise ticket prices because demand for seats has risen wish i had bold type for that no for more evidence please come to my intro to econ course somewhere around lecture four sunk costs opportunity costs marginal costs right on ticket prices are set to maximize revenue period for an excellent discussion on how this works see gerald scully s book of a couple of years back titled i think the business of baseball we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in apr stsci edu sandoval stsci edu writes ok roger here s a question for you say you are running an expansion team you don t have a team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn t protect alfredo who would you pick for an expansion team i m pretty sure i would go with the rings as long as their salaries and ages weren t too high i would want the fans to be able to identify the players i would like a championship attitude in the clubhouse as for larkin and griffin salaries aside i would have to consider which player is likeliest to contribute to a ws victory past performance age and attitude would all be integral to my decision i certainly wouldn t just haul out my copy of gillete and pick larkin as many others would and unlike many others who post to this group i hardly consider myself quali fied to make those kinds of decisions i can t believe i m getting involved in this i have never been able to believe it about myself to tell you the truth it s like banging your head against a stone wall cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	re usa today ftp site in article c qgld dut cc swarthmore edu rbrooks cc swarthmore edu robert brooks writes wiawkph dutrun tudelft nl k p hart writes sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by usa today that should give scores for last night s games can some kind soul e mail me that address please thanks if anyone knows of such a site could they please send it to me also thanks dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	re red sox mailing list query in article sfoixme wb qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw andrew cmu edu writes a friend in england is looking for a red sox mailing list if you know of such a list could you please send me mail with some info thank you i would be veru interested also if there is one could someone please send me some info dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article c smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse i think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris v clemens ws ring string i laugh at you now and i will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent i think bill james put it best about sparky anderson abstract there are a million guys in this country with great attitudes but there are only about five hundred who can play a major league brand of baseball which are you going to take tom hyer
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn t use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now i really think that this is the key point when i saw the incident on baseball tonight sunday i couldn t believe how far away from the plate gant went then he casually leaned against his bat i don t blame the umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch the worst part of the whole incident was the braves coming out onto the field what were they going to do attack the umpire the only people who should ve been out there were cox and maybe the coaches but no players i agree with the person who posted before that cox should be suspended for having no control over his team john
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he d been thrown out and gant had a legitimate beef about the pitch that was called a strike a reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn t ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn t take a lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call i expect his concentration wasn t there yet and in a crucial situation i imagine it s best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant s bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought now it s pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for a strike throw you out etc gant was wrong but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had a reason to want some time disputed strike call gant hadn t been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old the score was with outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn t and shouldn t cut gant a little slack for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused a five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in a key situation did he have a date to get to and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix i plan on being in the toronto area sometime this summer late june or early july and would like to attend a blue jay game i would appreciate if anyone could give me information on how to obtain tickets for blue jay games i would prefer to get good seats and i assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying ticket broker info for the toronto area and or ticket info directly through the blue jays would be appreciated i ll bring oxygen if need be my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates though i d prefer to see texas thanks in advance tony
rec.sport.baseball	fenway hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway thanks eugene s rhim dartmouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area i can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as i understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry bern o dell i grew up listening to harry carey call the cardinals games and really liked him then but as i recall he was fired because he was too critical read honest when he was announcing he dared to point out the cards miscues and such at least this is what i remember from when i was a kid kay jones
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer by the dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area i can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as i understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive runs from da comments in article qvdrninnd f gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes the reason i bothered doing this dr stuff was to see if i could determine the answer to the age old question is jeff blauser more valuable than rafael belliard well it looks like just as doug trumped tim beating him to the net with his defensive analyses so tim has gotten in ahead of me the way i was doing it was a little different being me of course i used equivalent averages to work out how many runs a player was worth and i calculated both rate of performance fielding equivalent average and total performance fielding equivalent runs but i compared not to the average player but the replacement player and here s why because the positional adjustment comes built in to the system in the al of the average ss is runs above replacement rar cf b b lf rf b we may quibble with the exact numbers but the order looks substantially right in the equivalent average i have always set league average to i had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of the name of that replacement level hitter often as not is billy ripken i decided to let the replacement level fielder be the same distance from as but in the opposite direction as i have set it up that makes for an eqa of yes i can add runs are proportional to eqa squared the difference between squared and squared equals the difference to squared and i rounded off for simplicity an all replacement fielding team would have randy milligan at first willie randolph at second leo gomez at third walt weiss at short kevin bass in left hojo in center and eric anthony in right ugh so the total number of rar for a player is the sum of his batting and fielding rar i can rate them by total rar or rar per some number of batting outs like an average player has a total rar of about batting fielding total rar bat field bonds ventura sandberg thomas van slyke anderson grace raines lankford puckett pendleton alomar finley martinez e bagwell mack butler mcgwire sheffield griffey larkin devereaux grissom henderson walker listach justice lofton w clark baerga kruk d white o smith palmeiro gwynn sierra hollins carter j bell gonzalez notable entries in a per batting out rating nl top are bonds lf sandberg b van slyke cf grace b larkin ss justice rf sheffield b one at each position measured mcgriff despite batting rar fifth in league finishes out of the top due to a in fielding last by position galarraga stillwell hansen belliard blauser gad a rd in league may dascenzo anthony in the al much maligned rickey henderson was worth second only to frank thomas ventura edges edgar at third grebeck rates a potent griffey edges puckett as top cf listach nudges out lofton among rookies and alomar clearly outpoints baerga last by position segui sojo palmer lewis polonia cuyler v hayes all for now clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye this comes up periodically and i just don t get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that s not a potential great example of what you re talking about then i don t know what is now let s look at what happens when mcgwire doesn t walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit a single of the time he hit a double of the time he hit a homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs i would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of i didn t say that pitcher s fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational i just said that it exists then there are guys like alex cole who has a career obp even though he s never had a batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit a single home run yep that s right he s never hit a homer in ab s through the end of who d be afraid to throw a strike to him i don t know alex cole s batting style at all some questions how tall is he does he go into a crouch like rickey hederson pete rose does he foul off a lot of pitches like brett butler does he take or strikes in each at bat it could be the cole has a good batting eye look above i said that many high obp guys draw their walks because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them not all high obp guys ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears how can anyone pick the worst yankee pitcher in the past years there have been so many does the name steve you mean i should try and throw the ball to the catcher trout jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	babe s pitching can anyone out there tell me babe ruth s complete pitching stats i know he was as a pitcher for the yankees but what were his numbers when he was with the red sox thanks in advance kris schafer hey sixers lottery pick lottery pick lottery pick go phillies give me beer or give me death lets pillage al bundy shoe salesman women can t live with them pass the beernuts norm barfly
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game somebody wrote how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers baltimore baseblazers where the hell did you come up with that the orioles are not a base stealing team except for anderson besides we would never call them anything but the baltimore orioles why the ballpark has all these orthologically spelling error correct baltimore orioles all over the place i bet you thought the bird is just an oriole it s not the bird was named after lord baltimore when maryland was founded they re called baltimore orioles but the post is just a joke so why do i care what a non o s fan thinks of us but i still wonder where baseblazers came from san diego padres now there s a name that needs to be changed how is padre being used as father ie priest or father ie parents admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy
rec.sport.baseball	re usa today ftp site if there is a usa today ftp site could someone please post it to the newsgroup so everyone will stop posting the send it to me too articles i m sure many people woulds like to know so why not just post it to the net rather than mailing hundreds of people just a thought thanks ryan robin robinr prism cs orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes kubey sgi com ken kubey said and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye i m not sure i used to think this was true but more and more i m becoming convinced that it s the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it a lot let s break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk a lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay i think we all agree that singles hitters should take a strike or two and try to get on base any way they can so the no power impatient guys have no excuse the no power patient guys are doing the right thing now the impatient power guys how could you leave out the big cat would these guys have a better slugging percentage if they took more pitches perhaps but i doubt it if you tell joe carter to go up there and take a few pitches he will draw more walks but he also won t hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because he is more likely to hold back on a pitch that he used to drive the patient power guys joe morgan had a small strike zone and rickey henderson has a strike zone the size of hitler s heart so they get their walks based on the small zone look at the other guys thomas bonds mcgwire ruth and williams wow a lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe walk these guys that to throw a clear strike to them the pitchers would do better in my opinion by just coming after them with a good fastball for a strike on the first pitch but pitchers would rather nibble go or and then get hurt ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes if i were the manager i d argue that the runner was out of the base line since he was to the left of the first base line if the umps don t budge which they won t they nev er admit when they are wrong i d file a protest with the league rule k states it is interference by a batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire s judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and a runner isn t out just for running out of the baseline he s out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner s head there s no inter ference so what is your definition of interfering with the fielder taking the throw the rule book certainly doesn t have a definiton or clarification so it s possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter his throw to avoid hitting the batter runner then again we have interference you know it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly if the catcher or the pitcher say rob dibble for example throws toward first and hits the runner running inside the baseline the fielder takes the chance of being ejected therefore he probably would throw around the runner or your scenario above him you should note that in our american legion league which uses mlb rules we interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there is interference per rule rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update umpires are not required to call time out just because a player asks for time only in extreme cases like dust in the pitcher s or hitter s eyes should an umpire call time the batter has seconds to get situated in the box and receive a pitch i m against putting a giant clock or any size clock for that matter up to count down seconds between pitches and the minute for warm ups but i think umpires should tell hitters to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever and instruct the pitcher to pitch the same goes for pitchers umps should tell them to pitch or feint within seconds or a ball will be called that s the way it should be ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question it depends if in the judgment of the umpire the batter made no attempt to avoid getting hit the batter is awarded first for a base on balls if the umpire rules he did try to get out of the way he s awarded first because of a hit batsman ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic pitchers are required to pitch or feint or attempt a pick off within seconds after receiving the ball not pitchers are required to pitch their warm up throws within a one minute time frame beginning after each half inning ends not two minutes and the reason why a reliever should be allowed warm ups is simple different mound different catcher ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series a guy who threw innings with about run lower era would have saved the bullpen even more say somebody like frank viola innings his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line nice audition tape send it to baseball tonight attn ray knight espn bristol ct have you by chance taken a look at the boxscores from last year to determine the accuracy of your account i seem to recall morris getting at least or wins last year when the jays came back from behind after they had decided to pull morris at the end of an inning mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history truly donovan
rec.sport.baseball	re a rooky question about the era thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there i m german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game thus if a pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if a pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not a result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game i hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more please pardon my ignorance if this is well known but what is the current rule than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i remember a post from last year indicating that a pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work i don t remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that a pitch clock was inevitable how would a pitch clock work on throws to first maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make and award a balk if he exceeds it i d have another question who would operate the pitch clock one of the umpires add another one to the crew another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does i m not sure i like this idea i think it would severely diminish the number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play one of my personal favorites if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked ahhh i suppose i should read the whole article before i hit the f key eh obviously from what i wrote above i like this idea the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base it may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag since the pitcher knows he doesn t have very many chances to pick off the runner so he may hurry too much i d rather see runs scored as the result of sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness that could result from this kind of rule so i suppose there are some disadvantages to that idea too baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite i too find myself surfing when i know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery i remember in little league if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter s box even for a moment we were automatically out that may be a little harsh for the majors but seriously how about putting a limit on the batters being able to step out take several dozen practice swings pound their shoes scratch their balls etc maybe forcing them to stay in the batter s box wouldn t be such a bad idea that could save a few minutes randy
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba mss netcom com mark singer writes in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking i don t think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price i m sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on a team by team basis attendance in was down by from an all time record in in people terms attendance was down by from to two franchises the dodgers and mets were down by from to had either of them not been entirely awful mlb would have set another attendance record in mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com fortran the infantile disorder by now nearly years old is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today it is now too clumsy too risky and too expensive to use edsger dijkstra selected writings on computing
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer by the dell writes i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time i heard bing speak about it at last year s sabr national btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	ron gant stalling and hirschbeck dale seer stephenson writes while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn t ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn t take a lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call i expect his concentration wasn t there yet and in a crucial situation i imagine it s best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant s bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought and it is not hirschbeck s job to help gant with any of these difficulties if gant can t gather his concentration for whatever reason that just makes him all the more meat in the batter s box the umpire s job is to maintain flow of play gant is not entitled to time to regather his faculties nor is anyone else now it s pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for a strike throw you out etc gant was wrong absolutely i think it d be more accurate to say gant was foolish but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had a reason to want some time disputed strike call if a disputed strike call is ample reason for a timeout games would last about nine fifteen weeks if jack morris or dave whiner stieb were pitching a disputed strike call is not sufficient for a time out suck it up get back in the box and never badmouth the blue they re not going to change their mind and you re just going to come across as a pinhead which won t help you with the borderline calls ftr i never speak to umpires when i don t know them personally nor do i glance at them or react to calls as a result i think i get more than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate because i have a rep of having a good eye actually there are a lot of negative connotations that go with that rep including copious questions about my masculinity party affiliation and sexual preference gant hadn t been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old irrelevant he was wasting time then the score was with outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn t and shouldn t cut gant a little slack because it s not his job because setting the precedent of cutting slack there can easily extend to those hour games kind of like the phantom dp for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused a five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in a key situation did he have a date to get to gant hurt himself and the braves disrupted the game your biases are exposed and i m sitting here defending umpires and the sf giants which is like phyllis schlafly defending gary segura jack kevorkian and the swedish abortion team and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game i believe terry said the magic word there are some truly quick ways to get tossed from a ballgame for a primer email me good ways to get tossed from a game ask ken kaiser if he got his money back from nutri system kiss rich garcia on the lips and say hi honey i m home goose eric gregg ask bruce froemming if his parents had any children that lived get naked source the greg spira book of diamond ettiquette as told to peter gammons collier press gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh greg
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past bob h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems o mp dallas tx o o o o o o
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was not right in article apr news stolaf edu eblom mari acc admin stolaf edu the woodman writes in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball oh i don t know maybe because they love the game they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl so people deal with unfair treatment differently i suppose you would have more respect if she punched out some people like a stereotypical macho man would have done i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports male sports are only that way because they won t let women be involved there is no divine providence segregating sports it is the decision of the men who run it men almost as liberal thinking as you how can we have women umpires ummm by insisting they pass an accredited umpire course then hiring them jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat listen mr status quo i know pam postema i ve seen her work she is without question the toughest person i ve ever met she doesn t give a damn about her fingernails but does care about working the game she s not there to find a man to take care of her but to do the best job any umpire can do your bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you neck not your grasp on society there s nothing wrong with a red neck why some of us hicks even listen to cultured music and such can you say the same aside from that you shouldn t try to shit on this guy by insulting where you think he comes from where i m from we milk cows drive trucks and yes even like baseball so screw anyone that doesn t like it oh yeah learn the difference between to and too city boy see below thom unnumbered wanna be member of the bob knepper fan club bkfc either way there are too many complications nobody said life was easy pam is aware of that to bad that she has to be judged by people like you who can t look past anatomy qaustin jacobs bob knepper fan club member were you ever an organized baseball owner or in the political system before women could vote you seem to feel threatened ttfn woody no smileys here either none
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that a walk or a hit by pitch bob vesterman it s gotta be an hbp doug roberts watching chris nabholz pitch reminds me of a quote by bart simpson come on snipers where are you go expos
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn t it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn t it a shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota billy hatcher herm winningham lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp cecil espy willie wilson gary pettis milt thompson gary varsho ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com you know the great thing about tv if something important happens anywhere at all in the world no matter what time of the day or night you can always change the channel jim ignatowski
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths his performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury received when he ran into the wall making a catch in the cincy series it may also be him pressing a little as for the baserunning it does not appear to be just lankford dent made the bad call sending lankford in the sunday night game against cincy but everyone had a bad time against the dodger s catcher whereis the ray lankford we saw last year good question at least it doesn t appear that we are seeing the same zeile h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems o mp dallas tx o o o o o o
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen sean garrison writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully i ll go with mark grace and in years frank thomas chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update and then cosper seq uncwil edu kit cosper quoth a comment made by one of the braves announcers attributed to an anonymous player after friday night s game i m sorry we didn t tie it up i wanted to see some more umpiring just about sums it up sure like ron gant wasn t completely out of line if i were hirschbeck i would have ejected in order ron gant every single last brave who came onto the field and possibly bobby cox depending on the language he used since cox was the only brave rung up i suspect i would have thrown him out too you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re is western insane in article qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca writes why are we continuously putting down other universities queen s is not as great as is makes itself out to be this place has only got a good rep because it s been here so long if someone would take the time to look around and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant misuse of the bell curve they could see that queen s needs some major improvements i would personally start with hiring professors who can actually teach not people who are here with the attitude that this place would be okay if it wasn t for all the students running around when did george bell ex blue jay learn to throw a curve
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in c sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player i was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game did you see the same game i saw gant most reasonable argued a horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while i don t necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started a dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article mzimmersc sllk ld netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches until six or seven years ago i was an enthusiastic fan of nfl football last year i hardly watched a game what turned me off were the incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game a team scores minutes of commercials kickoff minutes of commercials three downs and a punt minutes of commercials aaaaarrrrgh earlier in this thread i commented on larussa and the a s whom i believe institutionalize slow play i don t mind the cat and mouse game with rickey on first in fact i rather enjoy it similarly i would enjoy the battle with listach or lofton or polonia on first what i object to is when such games are played with karkovice on first or when the game is a blowout i don t mind when the pitcher steps off the mound to gather his thoughts in a crucial situation or when a hitter steps out of the box to regain his concentration what i object to is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity when a game is exciting these little delays serve as tension builders and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game when the delays happen with regularity they become nuisances just like the commercial breaks in football i understand the nfl imposed a number of rule changes to speed up the games basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move the markers and the ball to the spots faster that did not address the problem of the continuity of the game it may have appeased the sponsors and the networks but i would be amazed if it did anything to enhance the experience of the fans similary while some hour baseball games bore me to tears those are the ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly long periods to get ready for each pitch i doubt if anyone watching the braves giants game cared about gant stepping out i doubt if anyone watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that was present i would be totally opposed to any effort that would eliminate that aspect of baseball on the other hand i wish baseball had a commissioner that was powerful enough to sit down with alderson larussa duncan and explain that they are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games out the way that they do i sure wouldn t mind a little arm twisting there the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re autographs was will clark is a jerk in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes out of curiousity why haven t you pointed this same thing out to mr neiporent who seems to be making the unsubstantiated accusation against will clark as for taking the word of those two leonard has repeatedly said he had no problems with will and mitchell refused to comment mike you again prove your utter inability to read plain english it is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability the critic invariably makes a mistake himself english is generally written english find somebody who is literate and have them explain my full post to you i am not saying will clark is a racist i am not saying will clark is not a racist i am saying that i do not know and you do not know i am saying that i do not care and consider it the giants concern oddly i do not see that i have contested any of that perhaps you with assuredly greater english ability can explain in tiny words that i might grasp their meaning precisely where i infer that you have said any of those things david nieporent understood my post and replied in private e mail you should perhaps take reading lessons from him no mr fisher you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the allegation in the first place you do not perhaps you might explain why that is as for the email route mr fisher you might have tried that yourself mike
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen centerfield disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the centerfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays juan gonzalez would not have made ok i realize that s unfair juan s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every centerfielder in the league with someone with kevin s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops nixon o grissom m jackson d lewis d dykstra l dascenzo d finley s lankford r martinez d vanslyke a sanders r butler b johnson h ordered by dops vanslyke lankford grissom dykstra nixon finley sanders jackson nl average butler martinez dascenzo lewis johnson american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lofton k wilson w white d felix j devereaux m mcrae h yount r kelly r johnson l griffey k puckett k cuyler m gonzalez j order by dops lofton griffey devereaux white puckett wilson gonzalez yount felix al average kelly johnson mcrae cuyler more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen left field disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the leftfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays kevin bass would not have made ok i realize that s unfair kevin s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with kevin s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez l gilkey b clark g alou m bonds b may d gant r bass k ordered by dops bonds gilkey gonzalez alou clark nl average gant may bass american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops raines t anderson b henderson r vaughn g gladden d hall m mack s polonia l mcreynolds k maldanado c reimer k order by dops henderson anderson raines mack vaughn hall al average maldanado mcreynolds gladden reimer polonia more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details in fact he s a complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he s back to being a dickhead in r s bb john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh actually according to the da information posted by sherri boggs is superior defensively to have here s their defensive averages for the last five years compared to average at b al boggs hayes if hayes is a defensive standout at third he s done a good job in disguising it to put it another way compared to an average third baseman last year boggs converted more grounders into outs turned more double plays and prevented doubles hayes let more grounders go by for hits turned more double plays and prevented doubles dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line i don t buy this at all i think things are colored to a very large degree of preconceived notions of who the players involved are try this exercise xxx is pitching today his team scores in the first inning and in the fourth xxx gives up in the st through th in the fifth he gives up runs in the th he gives up more the score is now with xxx s team still on top i contend that if xxx were jack morris the assessment would be he is a gutty veteran who pitches only as well as he has to to win if xxx were mike trmbley the assessment would be he is an inexperienced rookie who doesn t know how to pitch needs more seasoning send him to aaa or to the spice rack john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr sni ca dave snitor sni ca dave till writes i don t think it was that obvious at the time that viola was better morris and viola had comparable k ip ratios in viola was coming off an injury whereas morris was healthy at the time i didn t really want the sox to sign either i was more than a little worried about viola s elbow but you surely remember my shout of relief when after a week of rumors that morris was coming to the red sox they ended up with viola instead now i m even happier viola seems to have rebounded nicely also morris was willing to sign for only two years the jays don t like to sign pitchers to long term contracts which i think is a sensible policy how long did viola sign for three years i generally agree with their policy of avoiding long term contracts for pitchers but i think they enforce it rather too strictly these days the premier pitchers all sign three or four year deals which leaves the jays with morris and stewart if the jays want to compete for top free agent pitchers they will have to accept greater risks any idea what the option year deal is for morris are there any automatic activation clauses what is the buyout amount f cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer newsgroups rec sport baseball by the dell writes i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time i heard bing speak about it at last year s sabr national btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen harry talks about this incident in his autobiography holy cow unfortunately i can not clarify on this since i read the book a couple of years ago and i do not have my book with me anyway it is a pretty interesting book if you are a harry or cubs fan rob
rec.sport.baseball	bitmaps of team logos i heard they were posted somewhere but i can not find them please e mail location thanks jody jody hagins hagins avlin us dg com data general corporation linthicum md rock river tree mastodon
rec.sport.baseball	two sport star trivia here s a few two sport star trivia questions i ll admit they re not too difficult but a bit challenging nevertheless mail me your answers please or post them which pitcher played for the harlem globetrotters which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in which does dieon sanders have more of professionally career touchdowns or triples has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball if so name him and the years he played each if you have any other two sport star tidbits feel free to include them mike
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up n of his n pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time would this suggestion apply to pick off attempts per pitch per batter or per base runner on the same base dr edward j baranoski mit lincoln laboratory it s got to be the going rm j d po box not the getting there that s good lexington ma harry chapin from greyhound
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article apr ncar ucar edu woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team fine are you willing to bet that he will bat the rest of the way the point is that he has hurt the rockies so far it s that he will hurt them eventually just as much as he hurt the expos and the cardinals the past couple seasons if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment it has happened for the past seasons where have you been that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh we ll see come september i have an outstanding bet with someone that galarraga s obp will be less than on june go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re neon deon sanders braves giants in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes phisto gatech edu tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yup i was wondering the whole time why the braves most talented outfielder neon deon was not starting here s whoa aren t you forgetting a couple of guys named gant and justice a guy who can hit hrs lead off and steal he can lead off he ll probably steal he might hit he ll never hit homers i think you went for on this one bases and they start guys like nixon and bream ahead of him i can t really see that advantage of nixon over deon except that nixon is a better defensive outfielder you said it all right there does anyone else out there not like deon i think he s all hype his season last year was good but i m not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe i just prefer guys who go about their business and don t play it up for the attention just my ho doug roberts larry walker is god delino deshields thinks he is john bratt if you re out there send me some email my system can t find your site
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes e later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do not to mention that lankford had been hurt two nights before running into the outfield wall this being the reason he was available to pinch anything his ribs were the problem so he could run but not hit torre is no white rat but give him credit for what he is a pretty darn good manager with the exception of the felix fiasco but i m not sure who s brainchild that was bil cardinals mailing list anyone anyone please
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes some discussion about whether elias is money grubbing deleted funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and i am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as a book with statistics while the elias analyst is a statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing i don t see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman some thoughts and facts bill james is a partial owner of stats inc however he has almost nothing to do with the day to day operations of the company although he does have significant input into the design of the books that bear his name the handbook but not the scoreboard to the best of my knowledge the only things that bill actually writes for stats are the predictions section of the handbook and the bill james fantasy baseball rulebook the debate over elias goes way back bill james early stuff was hampered by the fact that elias would not give access to their stats at any price project scoresheet and later stats were founded to fill this void you can call stats and ask them for a report on just about anything in their database and they will provide it for a price of course or you could just log into their online system and look at the data yourself having attempted to pry numbers from elias in the past football not baseball they just don t do that in stats eyes the high ground comes from making the information available at all that being said i m pretty dissapointed by bill s book this year too i am given to understant that it was mostly a response to the publishers desire to have the book come out sooner than april hope this makes things just a little bit clearer bias alert i am a former part time employee of stats noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	re box score abbrev woes scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn i ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is a person from ap whose job it is to type it up using a template on a laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap s news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of a laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one not totally true for the past year or two the ap has been getting box scores from stats inc the ap representative in the press box is actually a stats reporter dollars a game but free parking and anybody can do it the box is downloaded to stats in chicago some quick error checking is done and then stats sends it to the ap i m not sure where the appreveiations come in hear i don t think it is at stats s it may just be a space correction by the ap sports editor that day while i m mentioning stats reporters they are always looking for new people especially if you live in cleveland or pittsburgh you re road to getting into the press box may be real short for more info call stats and ask about the reporter network it s a fun way to get paid for watching baseball games end of public service announcement last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow s paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article c svp fja ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker writes in article ior slacvm slac stanford edu thomas hyer ior slacvm slac stanford edu writes in article c smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry i laugh at you now and i will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent the jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff not because derek bell was traded for darrin jakson i couldn t agree more the jays have a lot of power in their line up so far pitching has been the biggest problem maybe we can get acker back but anyway the point of my post if you missed it was that derek bell was traded because he was basically in the doghouse with cito and the rest of the team one incident that sticks out in my mind was when derek bell ran back out on to the feild after the jays had won the division and all the players were back in the clubhouse bell ran around the field with his arms in the air waving a big towel over his head he looked like a big jerk especially when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole season the next day winfield and carter somehow got the keys to bell s jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started the stadium announcer said that there was going to be a draw later in the game for bell s jeep bell really freaked out i don t think bell was to popular after that i think that jackson might be trying a little too hard right now he s known for being a great outfielder and he s not the only blue jay who has been booting balls and playing generally awful andrew andrew wyllie wyllie physics utoronto ca mrcs university of toronto
rec.sport.baseball	re you could look it up in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b writes yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know dummy hoy a late th century baseball player was deaf in order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or strike the umpires developed hand signals this also helped to relieve the stress on umpires vocal cords so they didn t have to shout strike or ball times a game heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book john thorn has ever authored a century of baseball lore mark b mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway less than people or more steve
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest stance i don t know i think phil plantier has the ugliest stance he looks like he s sitting on the toilet brian tbo rosen
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns mike schmidt s th not only a milestone but also a th inning game winner john
rec.sport.baseball	re phils nl east not so weak in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth says or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid season c mon the phillies haven t proved anything yet atlanta was similar to the phils years ago they sucked they started having the phillies finished third years ago the braves really are their record is can you imagine the phils record if they were batting hahahaha and atlanta s hitting will improve dramatically the phillies opponents haven t hit much better eat our words or not forgive us the true fans in philly have been through a lot john
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having a batting average and a obp okay i ll bite how can obp be lower than batting average sac flies or something ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman says does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year be patient he has a sore shoulder from crashing into the wall the cards will give him all the time he needs to come around he is their full time centerfielder he will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting clean up mark kornbluh
rec.sport.baseball	why is barry bonds not batting th as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to a good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it s that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it s been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america s lovable underdogs the cubs are america s team orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves go reds chris babbitt cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu all i want in life is a woman to love and a woman to care for my kids hopefully the two will never meet
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris aardvark cygnus la locus com warren usui writes so alfredo griffin is better than barry larkin if rings is what you re judging by then i don t see your point since barry has one yes but alfredo has at least two dodgers and blue jays not only that he has won world series rings for more different teams than babe ruth and lou gehrig combined how do we know that the yankee dynasty was not due to lazarri being at third warren i agree with your premise but the babe won on two teams that s right he was part of the red sox dynasty of the s and everyone knows that the yankee dynsaty wouldn t have happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at the moment cuz
rec.sport.baseball	belcher terrific tomlin not reds win redreport tim belcher pitched a dandy three hit shut out tonight as cincinnati won their second straight pittsburgh lefty randy tomlin was hit early and often by the heavily right unbalanced reds line up which managed some recently rare power with their bats belcher was solid throughout and in fact seemed to get stronger as the game progressed early on he had several three ball counts but even those were few and far between later on as he allowed only one base on balls while striking out nine in a post game interview he said his change up was working for him i should say so all nine of his strikeouts were apparently on breaking balls tomlin on the other hand was in trouble early giving up a second pitch double to lead off batter bip roberts bobby kelly followed with a single and barry larkin scored roberts with a sharp single to right the big guys mitchell sabo milligan were unable to get anything after that in fact they all struck out but kelly managed a score anyway due to a double steal and a tomlin wild pitch in fact it appeared that tomlin was going to recover nicely from his shaky start he retired of the next batters to get to the fourth behind only randy milligan though had different ideas as his line shot was poorly played by orlando merced and turned into a triple milligan would later score on reggie sanders sacrifice fly giving cinci the lead after the fifth inning spelled loss for tomlin when roberts led off with his second double of the game and one batter later larkin smacked a double down the left field line chasing tomlin barry later would score the final run on tom prince s two base passed ball the pirates managed their only threat of the day in the bottom half of the fifth when merced and kevin young hit back to back singles the second being of the bunt variety but carlos garcia struck out prince fit a foul fly and pinch hitter lonnie smith k d to end any pittsburgh hope pittsburgh pitchers backed tomlin up well though relievers blas minor moeller sp and nagel gave up only two hits in their four plus innings work barry larkin left the game in the seventh when the grounder he mis played bruised his right thumb he was taken to the hospital for precautionary x rays let s hope he s ok cincinnati is now still the worst record in the majors but with the two wins they may be looking at moving out of the cellar pittsburgh is now reds fans if you would like to receive this report on a semi daily basis as often as i write it send me your e mail address and i ll put you on the list if someone has a reds mailing list please forward it to me and i ll put everyone on the list cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo roberts b kelly cf larkin ss branson ss mitchell lf hernandez lf sabo b milligan b sanders rf oliver c belcher p totals b milligan off tomlin leading off fourth scored b roberts off tomlin leading off first scored roberts off tomlin leading off fifth scored larkin off tomlin in fifth one out runner on second rbi scored sf sanders rbi larkin sanders sb kelly larkin gdp sabo pittsburgh pirates ab r h k bb lo martin lf bell ss van slyke cf king b merced rf young b garcia b prince c tomlin p minor p smith ph moeller p waynor ph nagel p gdp merced cincinnati pittsburgh pitching ip r er h k bb cincinnati belcher w cg so line of the day e larkin pittsburgh tomlin l minor moeller nagel wp tomlin pb prince umps rippley hallion quick crawford att t coming up the reds play two more in pitts then go to chicago for a weekend series the weather doesn t look good though don t be surprised if one or more games get rained out tomorrow jose rijo vs steve cook then smiley vs wakefield on thursday rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players in apr galileo cc rochester edu kahn troi cc rochester edu writes let s not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim of course you can t forget mel allen michael
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns how about brooks robinson s last homerun ever came on at memorial stadium with one out and two on in the bottom of the th inning larry harlow was due up but brooks pinch hit a pitch from dave laroche into the left field bleachers for a win brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i don t really mind the length of games either if they want to speed the games up in sensible ways that s fine with me too however what i object to is the assertion by baseball people whitey herzog buck rodgers are who i ve heard say this that games are too long because hitters are taking too many pitches and that the strike zone needs to be expanded john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson says the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move even i noticed that gant s demeanor was not one of a batter attempting to regain his concentration gant was stalking off i wonder if gant said something to the ump gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move actually there was a small hand wave by gant as if to say don t bother me gant may have said something here too hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox was already halfway to the ump when the strike was called cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided my impression was that gant was not stepping out he was making a protest about the lack of an appeal to first as has been pointed out earlier there is no appeal to first on a strike i can understand gant feeling a little pressure in a two out risp game ninth inning he let it get to him the ump also overreacted gant was stalking off but i doubt he would have been gone long hirschbeck should have let him have a moment to compose himself before telling him to come bat imho umpires should be more flexible than what hirschbeck showed gant was disturbed to the point it was pretty likely he would not get a hit a very bad finish to a pretty good game dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball wayne barber data support specialist university of maine system internet barber maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th st ge elroy uh edu edward hui writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i don t understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won t take walks he d rather swing if i m the opposing pitcher why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well when i know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at a low and away curve john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be always has been even before he was even conceived of that s a neat trick always will be we leave a lot of room for error don t we hopefully i missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise well i leave that to the individual to fill in but i will say what about gehrig shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader mike
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn t the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then i can t imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up a little too and i got this idea at most games there s a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field a lot of the time i propose a kid s clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age i probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and i mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that i feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he s stuck behind two slow runners i think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt
rec.sport.baseball	re you could look it up in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b writes yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know true william dummy hoy was baseball s first deaf player he played in the bigs from through for several teams including the white sox and reds brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i ve never had a coach in my life when i find one who can beat me then i ll listen lee trevino professional golfer
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris well when you say without morris you have to mention an assumed replacement if the alternative to morris was letting cito gaston soft toss the ball underhand to the opposition every days then of course the blue jays wouldn t have won without morris if the alternative was replacement level then i think it would ve been very close and yes morris might ve made the difference if the alternative was frank viola the blue jays probably would have won more easily with viola last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly yes you can make the argument that the his presence prevented the team from collapsing in august also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series those innings were probably helpful his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line well i think is complete bs what happened most of the time is that morris fell behind and the team came back and rescued him mostly this is because he s a lousy st inning pitcher and much better the rest of the way that the team can climb out of holes consistently and win them is not to morris credit it s to the team s credit furthermore while morris did exceed the w l percentage that would be projected from his runs allowed and run support he hasn t done this in previous years in fact his w l record in is a lot worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed do you think he just came up with this ability in look at the postseason games he pitched decently in typical morris games morris gets behind team rescues him he s not responsible for that rescue and in both those games the team just didn t rescue him enough jack morris pitched as well as he did during much of the season in those games the offense just didn t earn him a victory btw i think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can t start anymore he s too bad a first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris did anyone happen to see peter gammons on espn last night he addressed this exact issue and dismissed it rather quickly according to gammons advanced scouts are reporting that morris fastball and slider still have the same zip and that his problems this year are due to his sudden inability to keep the ball hidden during his release guzman and stottlemyre have gone through similar stretches that have been cleared up succinctly by a little work with the pitching coach gammons looks to see morris back in top form within the month i on the other hand still have my doubts morris era last year was rather high for a pitcher who won games his showing in the series was not surprising although i m not convinced that he s washed up i have my doubts as to whether or not he can ever regain the form he had for the twins in brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball i definitely do that s why i don t like going to see games played on artificial turf the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it s true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don t become extra long well your idea of interesting differs from mine i think batting practice is interesting for example and make a special effort to get to the game very early in order to see it i think the delaying tactics of batters pitchers catchers and managers are interesting because they re attempts to gain advantage through control of the flow and timing of the game of course the umpires can and should intervene when these tactics get out of hand as ryan robbins has pointed out there are rules that cover this one of the more fascinating things about baseball i think is its open endedness with regard to time you never know if the game is going to zip right by and be over in less than two hours or if it s going to go on until four in the morning likewise some games are action packed and some games are slow and lazy that s fine by me those folks who want constant action should watch the games on tv so they can channel surf and cater to their short attention spans heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game bob sex is already all over baseball do you think those uniforms can get any tighter todd hundley s could be i suppose he seems to favor the carlton fisk baggy pants style very unfortunate todd word to the wise if ya got it flaunt it heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	yanks royals box score i need the box score from the april game i believe the score was to if anyone can provide it for me i would appreciate it joseph a guastella jr u s long distance mkt rep dewitt san pedro suite san antonio tx san antonio tx jguastel lonestar utsa edu ext
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year i beg to differ he had a couple hit games after he came back he did get caught stealing though he also missed sunday s game did he play tonight if not i m worried he s on my team too patrick
rec.sport.baseball	cub fever kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again i m beginning to think they have a chance this year what the heck am i thinking sorry just a moment of incompetence i ll be ok really orin bradley u you sure this maybe a chronic syndrome if it persists we may have to banish you to the cub crazy sanatarium in north chicago rob
rec.sport.baseball	pecota braves could someone out there send me pecota s stats for the last few years or something to give me some sort of feel for what kind of player he is my mind has no handle on him at all it bothers me pecota of the braves that is pretty meaningful that i can t even come up with his first name i think ken yousten if at first you don t succeed try again blacksburg va then quit no use being a damn fool about it yousten atlantis csos orst edu w c fields
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be not what kind of happy grass you are smoking maybe you should share some with me first of all lou gehrig is the greatest first baseman ever jimmie foxx is clearly the next best first baseman ever he could be the greatest first baseman of the yankees in the modern era to put him in this best in the history of baseball is quite humorous very silly and totally off the line tony
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r mek hlq menudo uh edu st ge elroy uh edu writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create a left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds both your reasons are not good ones joe morgan thinks that bonds clark williams should be the hitters while he believes that clark bonds williams is fine he definitely is of the opinion that bonds should hit ahead of williams i am inclined to agree with him your first reason is not valid because bonds can hit both lefties and righties very well he hits lefties or righties better than any other giant williams is still getting breaking balls although not as much as last season but the bottom line is bonds is a far more disciplined and more productive hitter than williams and i prefer to take my chances with bonds driving in the or hitters who are expected to have high obps than with williams williams would get more fastballs with bonds on first and second base open because of the threat of bonds stealing
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and i mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that i feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he s stuck behind two slow runners i think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt williams does not like hitting cleanup secondly bonds and clark in that order are a lot more productive with runners in scoring position than matt i am streaky free swinger williams sanjeev
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest swing ugliest swing i am not sure i think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger i wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish ballplayers your list of jewish ballplayers includes levi samuel meyerle son of jacob and margaret meyerle although that sounds like a jewish name meyerle s surviving relatives say he wasn t jewish according to nineteenth century stars published by sabr in incidentally long levi he was foot batted in the first season of the national association the first pro league needless to say he hasn t been topped yet of course the na is not considered a major league by officialdom over five seasons meyerle hit in the na he also played for the first three seasons of the nl hitting phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could you could be right then again you could be wrong this claim is completely unverifiable and untestable i d wager most of the braves fans on the net could name more than players from their season you could give away tickets to braves games however my dad and i were able to get great seats from scalper for face value which isn t exactly the sign of a hot ticket granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation this is precisely why they were considered america s team even especially when they were bad you could see most of the braves games on cable you could do that for the cubs as well but the braves had better camerawork better announcers what would you rather listen to harry discuss the game or skip and pete discuss motoball and teams that weren t too much worse because of tbs the braves had a lot of fans outside of georgia at home in kentucky even though we were much closer to cincinnati there was as many braves fans as reds fans even in you could actually watch the braves play you had to go to cincinnati to watch the reds i can go anywhere in america and watch the braves i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves why i d guess that braves fans are more widely distributed than toronto fans dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re neon deon sanders braves giants in r f f zippy telcom arizona edu r joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes does anyone else out there not like deon i think he s all hype his season last year was good but i m not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe i just prefer guys who go about their business and don t play it up for the attention just my ho tim wallach can be explained with the rabbitball deion can be explained as learning how to play the game i m not betting that deion will be able to play as well as last year but i think the odds of deion playing as well or better than he did last year are better than the odds of otis nixon doing the same thing when you factor in defense otis was more valuable last year but i m not convinced he ll be more valuable this year and especially next year dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	rbi question is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly rbi s this is the situation that brought the question up the red sox were up in the bottom of the th by a score of the mariners had the bases loaded with out the batter hits a fly to center which the fielder catches the runner at third tags and scores without a throw now without a judgement call and i don t think there is one this is an rbi for the batter it seems to me that a better name for this would be defensive indifference since it doesn t really matter whether the guy at third scores at that point i know i can think of several if the mariners stole third and second which opening the base would allow and then the batter hit a grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and third he wouldn t have a play at home third or second for the out and maybe he therefore can t make the throw to first to get the last out etc scenarios too but does it really matter if this guy scores this way when you re down by if the tying run is going to score so is the guy on third the point is that the batter imo shouldn t get credit an rbi for utterly failing to do his job which at this point is to get a hit or a walk not trade an out for one run what do you guys think regards burke charles s homan choman wpi wpi edu go red sox go rocket
rec.sport.baseball	re opinions on eli denny show so that s what happened to denny mclain sad for those of you who are interested another baseball pariah pete rose has a weekday radio show on the sports and entertainment national radio network i think it s pm locally pm on the east coast and actually his on air monologues about the baseball business sounds a lot more reasonable and articulate than what i hear from the ray knights of the world greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more f ccit arizona edu than mingling between g races robohen stodgy things argument by an inept speaker ignorant sermonizing a drinking bout without hors d oeuvres a dried up sword sheath held together by threads questioning by a boy favorite about one s other affairs inumakura the dog pillow
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create a left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris all of roger maynard s drivel deleted cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time can t we just stick this guy in the faq and stop responding to him guys the last several flame wars with him have been pretty much identical could someone just collect all the articles from this one and simply re post the entire block whenever he tries to start one it d be simpler roger apparently is one of those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames why give him what he wants oh roger you re dull very dull you should get a new act tom
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season john smoltz tom glavine german jiminez dale murphy bruce sutter pete smith rick mahler jim acker jim break on through morrison ron gant andres thomas gerald perry ozzie the aeneid virgil lonnie smith jerry royster how m i doing so far note i am not a braves fun n on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could on the other hand ii like the braves much more than the cubs and all i can name is ron santo ernie banks and don kessinger from my favorite cubbie season granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation right i ve watched enough braves games to know a great deal of their players i like many of their players the only cubs games i get to see while living in new york are those against the mets and they put me to sleep because face it watching guys like rick sutcliffe and luis salazar doesn t put me at the edge of my chair u i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves actually i notice a lot of anti toronto sentiment here in the states partly because of some of that post series arrogance thanks in part to upside down flag dork posts partly because roberto alomar is about as exciting as swiss cheese and partly because living in baltimore during the winters i ve become so fond of o s fans especially those who call in to rex barney s radio show that i have to side against their most hated rivals go reds sorry but mets is spelled with an m and a t jason a miller some doctor guy frank banananna win r
rec.sport.baseball	re mvp revisited total baseball which also tries to evaluate a player s total offensive and defensive contributions gives barry bonds a total player rating of for only one other player since ruth attained that mark cal ripken for his season rounding out the top five offensive players in the nl last season sheffield sandberg van slyke and larkin the top offensive players in the al in were e martinez ventura anderson r henderson and thomas in short total baseball says bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons ever in the game s history better than any year had by mantle mays williams etc if you disagree don t flame me flame the writers of total baseball also martinez and ventura are neck and neck so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis which one had the better year can be considered a toss up thus total baseball supports your choices of bonds and ventura as the mvps of phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	phils winning the hard way the phillies have won two games back to back in extra innings last night s game was hard fought the game in chicago should have been a blow out all in all these two games show a different phillies team in past seasons they tended to always be on the short end of run games i don t know how many times i saw them losing by only run if they were able to win most of those they might have been more of a contending team they are so far in extra innings and of course they are
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain there are very few disciplines where certainty is necessary to state something as fact baseball is not one of them therefore i can say that i know clemens was better than morris last year and larkin was better than griffin no i can t ascertain this i can t prove it but i m not required to do so and since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless why don t you simply stay out of them valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule you can t call time when there s a play in progress ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article p psilink com dennis g parslow p psilink com writes from dan campbell dan c jhunix hcf jhu edu in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes here s the hard working black players none here s the lazy white players mcreynolds now that time has passed what would the posts be like if rickey were driving his boat drunk killing himself and one of his teammates what would people say if bonds drunk out of his skull smashed his car into a tree disabling himself say willie mcgee for the season i can tell you they would be considered spoiled lazy say it niggers this awfully presumptious of you to assume you can read our minds and predict the future what makes you so sure i would be thinking these things what makes you think that there s not a lot of people out there don t think crews is a god anyone who is dead because of a mistake deserves sympathy be it crews olin bonds mcgee rickey or you or me why does it bother you so much that two dead white men are getting a little sympathy would it make you feel better if we only mourned dead black baseball players to beat a dead horse i seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan but that s besides the point i m sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him a lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets a couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as a sign of their immaturity etc meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and i didn t read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but i never read anywhere criticism of dykstra s character or daulton s intelligence for that matter based on this incident david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes if black players can t survive being mediocre or worse how can mcrae and chamberlain be explained nobody s saying it s a hard and fast rule my point is that white players are likely to stick around longer if they re mediocre i went through tb iii and made a list of year of and b who were negative in both adjusted batting runs and total player rating tpr has some problems but it s generally not too far off for a career imho all players who played most of their career after were considered here are a through i haven t done the rest yet armas bailor balboni bannister beauchamp beniquez bergman berry biittner blair bochte bonnell bosley bradford l brown buckner cabell c castillo cater cimoli cline clines coles d collins davalillo dernier dilone gaston geiger geronimo gosger heep iorg a few black players there a lot of white and hispanic hmmm one question how do you differentiate hispanic and black after all some people fall into both categories rafael ramiriez comes to mind and he d fit into this grouping also oops he s not an of b although he is a light hitting utility player sorry about that but miguel dilone would qualify if i remember correctly when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history includes huge long term global tensions regarding the black minority the hispanic minority while often discriminated against has never been the object of national obsession it might also be worth your while to subdivide the data into careers starting at year intervals i would think that your prediction would be most true for careers starting in the s and least true for careers starting in the s of course you d also have to compare total ml racial percentages for the era in question absolutely as i said before i expect that this effect is disappearing but it certainly did exist and all out talk of twg s and all that is not without some small reason i m of the opinion that your point is less valid today than it was years ago but i would be curious to see the data well there s the list go for it i ll cull some more names as i go i expect you re right btw roger
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes on the contrary it s statistically impaired opinionated little assholes like yourself who while springing up all over the continent like some dirty virus are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time heheheheh sorry roger i wronged you you re not boring all the time this one is a classic cordially as always hehehehehhe are you a jerk do people hate you are you no fun at parties well come to the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to be cordial with the best of them use such time honored cordiality techniques as calling people assholes comparing them to viruses for advanced students comparing them to dirty viruses what is a dirty virus and how can you tell it from a clean one we know and here at the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to know too heheheh thanks roger this made my evening tom
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th i like the clark williams bonds order pitchers can only walk clark with outs unlike last year williams is getting better pitches to hit with bonds looming in the on deck circle since matt has a terrible batting eye this helps the giants a lot when bonds gets on base all by himself he can try to steal nd and then be driven in with a single by thompson manwaring or clayton if you bat bonds before the other sluggers then you don t want him to run because a caught stealing could take you out of a big inning also bonds is less in need of protection behind him because he is such a good base stealer a walk is a potential double the only draw back is when clark and williams are clogging up the bases infront of bonds and i think that s a problem the giants will be glad to see especially if robby thompson gets hot ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris cmeyer bloch stanford edu craig meyer writes michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well i agree that viola is a better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters i understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters i just don t understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is a park effect e g yankee stadium the answer is they re stupid seriously i think you re right on the money i ve never understood the preoccupation with making sure a rotation has left handed starters the only time it makes sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main rival s is loaded with lefthanded hitters other than that i think you re completely right greg
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn t it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn t it a shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota a dominican b not all that light hitting lifetime or so in when he did most of his playing c professional pinch hitter after that yes that also gives you jerry hairston billy hatcher beginning th year now herm winningham good one lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field not the same thing lots of people are bad ofs gary redus not all that light either ops dion james not year daryl boston year this year vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp not year cecil espy not year willie wilson yup gary pettis ok milt thompson year this year gary varsho six year this year ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo brock coleman and wilson were hot dog basestealers also lonnie smith that seems to be a special class cfs like pettis and wilson also get more of a break especially if they actually do field well and brock wasn t all that bad a hitter either not until the end there when he spoiled his ifetime ba and again i suspect thatthe problem is lessening over time but if you look at the history of the last three decades there seems to be a clear race based pattern by which utility players and platoon players and lesser talents stayed in the ml far longer if they were white cesar cedeno light hitting hr lifetime ops mainly with houston also latin btw note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler come back in and we ll party h h h h h talk roger
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he s still light hitting but baseball managers don t think so they think he like omar moreno before him is a perfect leadoff man awesome defense darnell coles he s still around because of his when he hit hr henry cotto hasn t played years in the bigs wasn t a full time major leaguer until manny mota consistent hitter billy hatcher we ll see if he s still around in for his tenth year herm winningham same goes for herm lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field doesn t count then gary redus redus is hardly light hitting plus he stole bases close to ops career against lhp dion james we ll see if he s still around in to qualify daryl boston slugged to for three straight years in one of the worst hitters parks in the nl he s going to be one of colorado s better players this year plus to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in denver and buffalo and hawaii while with the white sox vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp coleman assuming he makes it to was never perceived as being weak offensively though of course he was led nl in sb his first six years in the majors cecil espy we ll see if he s still around in willie wilson wilson has always been overrated but hit five times in a six year stretch and led the league in triples five times but we can count him if he s still playing in though it ll be because he s otis nixon deluxe with slightly worse defense gary pettis okay if he s in the league this year he can count though he s also in the majors because of otis nixon syndrome milt thompson he s not spectacular but he s neither light hitting nor a ten year man gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn t perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler he ll have to steal a lot more bases ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris bwalker bnr ca barry walker writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th in spite of what all the stat heads say jack morris played a large role in the jays winning the world series last year i don t care if his era was he played a leadership role and did win games his era may have been high but he did pitch many outstanding ball games and he pitched many not so outstanding ballgames too jack essentially pitched a lot of ball last year this certainly isn t irrelevant and iif you replace morris with replacement level quality the blue jays might not win re leadership i don t see it if the leadership effect is there for a starting pitcher you would expect to see its primary effect on the pitching staff you would expect to see the rest of the staff improve instead the rest of the staff declined you can make a reasonable argument for winfield providing leadership the offense picked up considerably from its effectiveness the previous year i m not saying i buy that but at least that argument makes internal sense greg barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris my father is a huge tiger fan and i am a loyal blue jay fan who endured the collapse of the heartbreak of i don t have the stat book so let s throw them out first of all morris in his heyday vs clemens present how many cy youngs does morris have how many cy youngs does clemens have ballparks and such fenway average pitchers park detroit hugh hitters paradise morris is a great team pitcher sort of in the doug drabek mold if morris s team needs a well pitched game as in minn in morris snaps the ball and throw for ks otherwise he just tries to get people out as for clemens in the elias stat book of i believe that clemens has the best lifetime record for his team as compared to when he doesn t pitch how bad would the red sox have been last year without him can you say phillies i believe clemens is the better pitcher because of more power and hsi great tenacity morris is among the guttiest pitchers i ve ever seen but clemens is in a class with seaver carlton etc paul sparks
rec.sport.baseball	re royals final run total k mitchell bose kbos carina unm edu wrote the toronto blue jays scored oh fine we ll ignore that one coming from and all that ll teach me not to qualify my statements in the oakland a s scored a thundering runs bleah ok something to shoot for the royals will score runs or less this season although they just decided to get mcrae out of the leadoff spot of course valentine will throw this one back in my face when the royals even manage to outscore another al team sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant p gammons idiotic quote of the week gm manager motor city marauders there s no better home run park in internet baseball league baseball than tiger stadium
rec.sport.baseball	baseball in spanish recently i heard the red sox on wrol a spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find out how widespread this is being a ny native i know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a local
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest of the team s there is only one way of determin ing best in baseball and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game each game determines which team is the best that day at the end of the season the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division the playoffs determine the best of the best but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is a team game and you know what there is no such method inherent in real life either so i would assume you would endorse the notion that we cannot state with any level of objectivity that mother theresa has accomplished more good in this world than joseph stalin after all life on earth is a team effort if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as a criteria then fine but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual s contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of base ball so until you can prove that clemens contributes to a ws cham pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub jective and is mere opinion i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon have you tried glasses i find them quite useful after all there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds of evidence we present it s too bad you feel it necessary to close your mind and eyes to knowledge you live a poorer life as a result of that choice heck i d wager that you could predict a ws winner with greater accuracy than jeanne dixon and you know why because i have full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level you don t have to be rude have you tried calling a kettle black for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument or you yourself have committed a fallacy ignoratio elenchi i am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings although i have tongue in cheek claimed that in the past i am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual s performance from that of his team s for the purpose of comparing that individual s performance with another individual s per formance in other words in your world you cannot objectively state that jack morris was more important to the blue jays than al leiter last year in your world that may indeed be true fortunately in the world the rest of us occupy it s not i hope you never serve on a jury roger i think the rest of the jury would have to kill you there s no way i can objectively judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty you see there are billion other people on this planet we have no way of knowing whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn t for all the other people on the planet we have no way of knowing how the defendant would have acted had he been on a different planet because living on this planet is a team effort and no individual committs a crime totally isolated from his society he is a part of that society that being case anything i have to say on his culpability would be absolute subjectivity so i refuse to vote greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team i would not be wearing a ring nor would he if however i were on manny lee s team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays how is that possible he was on the albuquerque leftturns last year how could you possibly know what team he would be on if manny lee was on his team last year after all manny lee wasn t on his team last year so it s complete unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the same team as manny lee last year it would have been the team of the toronto blue jays since he and lee weren t on the same team you cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on if they had both been on the same team greg
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices minnesota lumberjacks thought of bunyons as in paul not sore feet or babes as in big blue ox seattle rainiers i think this was considered by the new ownership harkening back to aaa glory days and placating at least one local brewer kent dietz twins in mariners sometime this century
rec.sport.baseball	re wounded redbirds in article apr bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes in article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery the injury is to his fielding hand which is good unfortunately he may have some ligament damage and may require surgery which would lay him up for a while i don t know about jefferies apparently just a strain of some sort he hasn t been put on the dl so it s probably just day to day aaron
rec.sport.baseball	re bob dylan baseball abstract i ve never heard of the bob dylan baseball abstract but i am curious could someone clue me in phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there s no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be a self fulfilling prophecy i don t understand if it is williams lack of ability which you say above and i agree with which causes him to swing at bad pitches how will thinking that bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop chasing bad pitches i didn t mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that specific deficiency i meant that if having bonds bat behind him gives williams possibly unfounded confidence that might translate into more hitting productivity but you re right if williams biggest problem is more physical than mental that s less likely to make a difference michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris since roger is a canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball i am gonna try to explain it to him in terms of hockey according to his logic i can say that since bob errey is better than wayne gretzky hey errey contributed to cups while good old wayne has won nothing i think the kings should trade gretzky for errey what do you think roger ziyun
rec.sport.baseball	re hits stolen centerfield in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lankford r martinez d butler b american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops wilson w felix j i suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning an outfielder who is fast and gets a good jump would be expected to catch a lot of balls preventing both singles and doubles and also cut off more uncatchable balls turinging doubles into singles however a fielder who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies this means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles has anyone seen these players positioning do butler and felix play deep and lankford martinez and wilson shallow or is this a park effect i thought butler liked to play shallow david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re al stats and standings i forgot to mention that the stats are for games through doug
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game but of course it is expected that umpires will show up players don t get me wrong i understand the nature of the game but i just believe that a little ego ectomy for the umpires would make the game much better ted social nags and body bags make you dead what a drag drag drag saigon kick body bags the lizard krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again against seattle in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail clemens struggled with his control but was also the beneficiary of some pretty shoddy umpiring but to be fair most of the walks were early in the game and he adjusted he was also helped by dare i say it some pretty good defense by the sox including rivera playing at second not his normal position actually clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win considering the sox almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the th on mo s error catching a throw over i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight must win in april they ve already won more games so far than anyone thought they would at this point of the season i hope people aren t getting too caught up in this streak it s been fun but teams have streaks all the time and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get so much attention charles
rec.sport.baseball	re wounded redbirds in article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery i don y know about jefferies
rec.sport.baseball	re the mystery of ron gant in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes o any of you experts want to analyze ron gant omeone sure needs to analyze him gant is a head case in his what six or seven years in the majors he s put together a combined total of maybe one good season he lacks self confidence but worse he doesn t really understand baseball curiously he seems to perform best when his job is threatened sit him down for a game and he might get a hit the next night but let him play and what is he thinking about getting hits driving in runs no he s worried if he s going to get that stolen bases or that th career home run he appears to have no learning curve he never figured out how to play third base what a fiasco he still plays the outfield with his legs he s lucky he s so fast because it enables him to outrun his mistakes but as i suggested earlier in the season it looks to me like he s slowing down a little bit or else every groundskeeper is watering the infield dirt a little extra gant has had way too much of a chance already he may get hot again for a couple of months but he ll always revert to his true level gant s ml record age this season year g ab ba obp slg hr sb cs rd base expt year in the majors for parts of seasons total playing time approx seasons just looking at his hitting record he s had seasons of ops greater than which is pretty good for an of his season is pretty decent for a rookie b the move to third base explains a lot of his when he returned as an of he began hitting again and of course last year he slumped but no learning curve he has obviously improved his batting eye over the years as well as his sb cs ratio as to his fielding he was an infielder when he was drafted a bman as he came up through the braves system and then the braves put him through position changes in the space of a year he s an adequate of although not great and at least some of your perception of his fielding is colored by watching him learn to play the of at the ml level i know you re another long term braves fan about playing b imo that s the nd most difficult position to field after catcher at ss or b you need more range and speed but at b you ve got to have quick reflexes and have a gun for an arm there are no second chances at b even when playing sandlot softball granted i d still put my best overall infielder at ss but that s because he gets more chances not because the job is harder it still amazes me that so many teams have tried to convert other position players to b but maybe that s because the supply of natural b is scarce finally gant is a player who puts pressure on himself to perform well and works hard to improve you don t get those amazingly huge arms on that relatively small body without a lot of weight work now whether he s been overdoing it these days may be a valid question as is the question of whether he tries too hard to make something happen during each at bat but frankly if a player is going to not live up to potential i d much rather they fail by trying too hard than by not trying hard enough you might be able to teach relaxation to an adult but at that age i don t believe you can teach hustle all that said i don t think i d sign gant to another long term contract he s now and i think he s free agent eligible in years when he ll be given his career curve and limitations i wouldn t expect him to last much past as a ml ballplayer he might surprise me here but atlanta s got some talent on the farm and i d rather take my chances down the road with nieves et al eric
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having a batting average and a obp that s on for hitting with zip nil nada walks the reason a lot of us are down on galarraga is that he s has a long history of showing that this is nowhere near his real level of ability except for drawing walks if he hit for say even ab s i d be convinced that there was a real change in his ability if he did it with an obp avg i d not only be amazed but i d make a bet that that would be a unique feat in the history of the game but what do ab s prove look at some of the other fluke players at this point in the season player avg ab blauser grace milligan conine lansing slaught are any of these guys really that good well in a word no how significant is galarraga s average at the ab level a hit is worth about if he d had one of those hits called an error and one taken away by a good defensive play he d be in the range if he goes for in his next game he s all the way down to in one game come back in june let s talk then if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh it s history greg andres history is that he doesn t walk much because he swings at bad pitches so his average isn t very good ab s doesn t mean an awful lot compared to a history of a couple of thousand especially when there s ample evidence bb in that his basic hitting approach hasn t changed yeah he might suddenly have turned into a hitter who never walks but don t bet the rent money on it mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com from an historical basis middle east conflicts do not last a long time vp dan quayle on nightline october
rec.sport.baseball	re candlestick original article newsgroups rec sport baseball path butch netcomsv netcom com csus edu wupost uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state ed from scunning louven berkeley edu sean cunningham subject candlestick message id apr pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu nntp poster nntp posting host louven berkeley edu organization university of california berkeley date wed apr gmt lines hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn t the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then i can t imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up a little too and i got this idea at most games there s a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field a lot of the time i propose a kid s clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age i probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean i was at opening day the stadium and new owners were great i pick candlesti ck anytime over the giants playing out of state i only wish the buttheads in san jose had enough balls to vote for a stadium here
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball logos available via anonymous ftp in article apr ac dal ca arishem ac dal ca writes well thanks to matthew wall the major league baseball logos which i ve been posting over the past number of weeks now have a home at the internet baseball archive to get them ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu login anonymously as per usual and cd to the baseball misc graphics directory both the gif files and the uuencoded versions are available darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place i have successfully copied all of the uuencoded versions of these logos to my local directory but when i tried the gif files it said permission denied could you explain why and also how to execute the uuencoded files thanks ken ken cruz nfl champs dallas cowboys johns hopkins university mlb champs baltimore orioles baltimore maryland all star game oriole park at camden yards
rec.sport.baseball	you could look it up yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know mark b mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article c srg cpt odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes i didn t say that pitcher s fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational i just said that it exists but why mcgwire and not carter i can see some justification for bonds or thomas because they tend to have higher batting averages but the major difference i see between mcgwire and carter is that carter doesn t draw walks why aren t pitchers afraid to throw strikes to carter sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there as will i and the ultimate lurker sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	stats im trying to find a site that has updated daily stats more the national league i ll take both leagues but i m really interested in the national league how about them philadelphia sillies
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com writes in article g netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes during spring training i made a similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn s all screamed i assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments i m still licking the wounds but i do have a rebuttal planned gotta do my homework as they say some deletions rather they showed quite convincingly that past clutch performance has never been able to predict future clutch performance i m sure you are convinced dave apparently so is tony perez i however am not i believe at the time of the sabo plate appearance that juan samuel was on the bench available for pinch hit duty over the past four seasons non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel i do not claim that this is a complete statistical analysis that proves the existence of clutch hitting or compelling testimony that samuel would have gotten a base hit i m sure there is something wrong with the sample size or that the basic assumption that clutch performance is random invalidates any conclusions from this limited application or something or other i don t pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part one of the basic things you need to have in a statistic to be able to predict a player s performance on it in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year a player s batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year a player s ability to walk or infielder s defensive average are correlated better that is to say given their past performance in those statistics we can have a pretty good handle on how they ll do next year put in some simple information about aging and you can do even better one of the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn t seem to help much as a counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you d bat maldonado for lemon in a blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data there were players who had clutch at bats every year from according to elias as a simple measure of clutchness let s just look at clutch ba non clutch ba if you use to predict for those players you d find that of the were below league average in that measure both in and in were above league average in both periods and the other were above in one and below in the other if you were just flipping coins you d expect to get above below in both and that switched the difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment is not statisically significant btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives a correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives a correlation of significant at no level of any interest everyone would agree i hope that a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when your team is down by three is a very clutch hit there is just no way to predict who is more likely to get the clutch hit based on past performance hitting in clutch situations if you say so dave no way actually it s technically incorrect to say that we can t predict future clutch performance it s more correct to say that we can t predict future clutch performance with any skill harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr rd mlb standings and scores for friday april rd including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost san diego padres won los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost montreal expos won st louis cardinals won pittsburgh pirates won chicago cubs lost new york mets lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins won chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost detroit tigers won new york yankees won toronto blue jays won milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league san diego padres boston red sox philadelphia phillies seattle mariners los angeles dodgers chicago white sox montreal expos baltimore orioles cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals colorado rockies cleveland indians st louis cardinals california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in mssc qh y l p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes there is a fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands a manager much like a military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during a game after the game it s no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff strawberry s demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands i suspect that a comment like i enjoy hitting fourth i m used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying i feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and i think i perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like a fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order a more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then i am all for it we d ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems a little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl s response as petulant personally i think his argument is nonsense and that it really doesn t matter much in which order the players in the order are batted except for personal stats if i were darryl i d probably answer that question the number four spot gets a few more rbi opportunities and i get paid for rbis i think it is best for me to bat fourth but i am willing to hit third if tommy thinks it will benefit the team or something like that it would be helpful at salary time my rbis were down because i was hitting third and make him sound like a team player since strawberry will not likely go through arbitration but use the free agent market for his next contract maybe that argument is useless but it would help his image with the media without appearing to be totally content free remember the media is of the belief that one s best rbi man should hit fourth so the argument is sensible regardless of whether or not it is true jeff
rec.sport.baseball	no no box boston at seattle boston ab r h bi seattle ab r h bi riles b felder lf quintana rf cotto dh greenwell lf sasser ph dawson dh griffey jr cf m vaughn b buhner rf calderon cf boone b cooper b t martinez b john valentin ss blowers b pena c valle c vizquel ss totals totals boston seattle x e greenwell dp boston seattle lob boston seattle hr boone off hesketh sb felder blowers ip h r er bb so hr boston hesketh l quantrill fossas gr harris k ryan seattle bosio w hesketh pitched to two batters in the fourth so bos dawson m vaughn john valentin cooper sea buhner griffey jr blowers boone bb bos riles quintana sea felder buhner t martinez umpires hp voltaggio b kaiser b johnson b mckean t a
rec.sport.baseball	chicago visit i am planning a weekend in chicago next month for my first live and in person cubs game i would appreciate any advice from locals or used to be locals on where to stay what to see where to dine etc e mail replies are fine thanks in advance teresa teresa hagerman ohio state university
rec.sport.baseball	re sex uniforms and good taste in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes in article r r s ob network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes which reminds me yet again of a bucs cards game in whitey herzog s last year as cards manager karen and i were watching the game on tv and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling on the white rhino himself at his uniform filling worst truly horrible do you remember game of the nlcs after the dodgers defeated the mets and ugh a dugh foo boo fat stomach tom lasorda came running out on to the field in celebration yuck he undulated his arms flew up and down keeping time with his rolling set of stomachs which flew all around the cozy confines of chavez ravine he oozed like a white gastropod he ran it was a disgusting sight not only couldn t i watch my mets in the series i had to watch fat stomach lasorda roll around dodger blargh but what made it memorable was what karen eventually said about this which was i would rather sleep with a jar of bill landrum s spit under my pillow than look at whitey herzog in one of those uniforms if you like short fat men who grunt curse and spit a lot whitey s certainly your man former wfan host pete franklin on the white rat but it s true this emphasis on the appearance of ballplayers in tight uniforms only works if the player actually has an extraodinary physique looking at charlie hough s scrawny torso through those tight white shirts just sort of makes me decide hmmm i don t want to eat lunch today or tomorrow or anytime soon when al harazin first became mets gm he was asked if he intended to help redesign the mets uniforms and change their image in particular they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the sides the uniforms he said that he s very much in favor of keeping them because they re sleek and they re sexy sid fernandez in a tight fitting uniform with a sleek racing stripe to denote speed and potencty mmmmmmmm lard kevin mcreynolds diving after a fly ball mmmmmmmm man o war baby pat howell well never mind nothing could be tight on him they don t make uniform sizes that small adam wishes he contribute something more interesting to r s b levin jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana
rec.sport.baseball	greg maddux run support i know you all were saying ha the braves score a few runs for maddux that ll shut that guy up but no i think we ll just keep track a bit longer last outing runs total to date runs games braves record in maddux s starts see ya next time dennis dennis parslow that better be a korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team tuesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult x w ito l nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat in article apr rigel econ uga edu scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes sorry i gotta disagree here last time i played ball i went up on several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance a runner to third it s relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit a good line drive with fastballs it s very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls a good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time maybe more there s a blurb in the stats scoreboard about this and though i don t have the book with me here my memory is that the best at hitting sac flies were far below this number sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re football vs baseball was game length in article apr almserv uucp e ucja fnma com chris allen writes in article ast saic com sac asdi saic com steve a conroy x writes major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans i e the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don t like to watch baseball on t v say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find a way to shorten the games for wider t v appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with a solution to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get a commisioner now since it s obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in nebraska off soapbox how can you say there is more action in football then baseball a football game consists of approximately plays and the average duration of a play is around seconds this means that in a game that lasts approximately hours you have about minute s of action in a baseball game you have upwards of two hundred pitches there are very few on field strategy on field stratgy sessions ie huddles and you always have a chance to win until the last out is made ah but the illusion in football is that there is always lots of action and a sense of urgency because of the game clock not all the time but it happens when there s less than minutes to go quite often this sense creates drama even when there may not necessarily be any and that holds a viewer s attention in baseball only players are involved in the action for about here comes a wild guess of the time and they re just playing a sophisticated game of catch hold the ball step out of the box adjust chains touch self in interesting locations there s a lot of dead time with the players warming up between innings or the manager visiting the pitcher at the mound or the manager removing the pitcher and bringing in a relief pitcher who then takes pitches or helen dell playing the organ dodger fans will appreciate that one to the non baseball junkie this is boring at any rate i m not putting baseball down for this i ve been an avid fan since i can remember it s just that watching a baseball game on t v at home can be tedious for the non baseball junkie that s what major league baseball and the networks are trying to address when they talk of shortening the game it s because of t v not because football has more action than baseball steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i m gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take a look at the standings it s real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it s working you don t screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is p s does the mailing list maintainer think that will clark is the best first baseman in the majors and that matt williams is a better power hitter than any other ballplayer in the majors i don t follow al so i won t comment on majors in the nl if i had my choice of any b in the league for my team it d be clark and i d hit him third my fantasy team has both grace and murray on it because i ve never been able to get clark i d take any of the three without hesitation in real life but i think clark is it williams not even close i much prefer his defense but when he isn t headcasing it matt has a good solid swing and some real punch if he drops to then he wanders out of cleanup but according to the latest baseball weekly he s hitting and in the last week hitting that s not exactly chopped liver mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes paladin leland stanford edu jason gische writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes i think sac flies are the only way obp can be below ba does this seem dumb to anyone else the fact not the comment why should a batter s obp be hurt by a sac fly especially if sac bunts don t have the same effect since they do the same thing but sac flies usually score a run while bunts just advance a base but both of these situations involve the batter giving up an ab for the benefit of the team sacrifice so why should it hurt their stats the sac bunt is a purposeful act ordered by the manager the batter does not go up trying to get a sac fly and the evidence available indicates that there is no such ability players can t will themselves to hit sac flies they fly out to the same place just as often when there s nobody on third greg sorry i gotta disagree here last time i played ball i went up on several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance a runner to third it s relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit a good line drive with fastballs it s very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls a good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time you haven t been facing major league pitching maybe more you have to be good at the plate and most of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and helping their average as getting the sacrifice the best example i know of is jerry willard in the series against minnesota all he had to do was put one in the of and the game was over he swung waaaaaay past parallel and accomplished barely getting the run in safely stats did a little study in the scoreboard book entitled can you hit sacrifice flies on purpose a summary of the findings over the year period sac fly type fly balls were produced percent of the time in situations where a sac fly was useful and percent of the time when a sac fly wasn t useful they looked at the leaders in sac flies and found that the leaders in sac flies in other words the guys you would expect to be good at it it hit sac fly type fly balls only more often when they needed to a difference way too small to be the result of a skill essentially the players who hit a lot of sac flies seem to do so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often with and without a runner on third stats concludes so it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies on purpose even if they practice in the batting cage greg
rec.sport.baseball	how does a pitcher get a save the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save
rec.sport.baseball	looking for strategic boardgame for baseball last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now likes to play and to follow the professionals i would like to buy him a board game so he can catch a glimpse of and practise a little of the managerial stragegy i am not looking for a computer game or any type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner i am after something that he and his friends can spread out over a table on a rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over i would appreciate the names of any recommended games i don t follow this newsgroup so e mail responses would be ideal michael mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b environmental health centre tunney s pasture ottawa canada k a l mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b environmental health centre tunney s pasture ottawa canada k a l
rec.sport.baseball	twins update twins update posted april the twins defeated the milwaukee brewers today to conclude a three game homestand with the brew crew the twins took two of three games in the series with scores as follows tuesday april th mn mil winning pitcher banks wednesday april st mil mn lp hartley thursday april nd mn mil wp deshaies sa aguilera highlight low lights of the series jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today s game deshaies was with a era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via a trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like a true genius willie banks has put together two solid starts for the twins going innings on monday while coasting on solid twins hitting deshaies and banks now combine for of the twins eight victories while tapani mahomes erickson are wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones the twins teed off against both him and subsequent relief including a grand slam by kent hrbek which pushed the lead to the twins pitching staff could not hold the lead though allowing walks in the th inning of which scored and coming with bases loaded tapani gave up one walk before being relieved guthrie two walks and mike hartley one walk before the inning was over this tied the game at and the brew crew rocked mike hartley for runs in the top of the tenth to win it aguilera continues to be shaky against the brew crew of career blown saves have come against the brew crew and today s game was shaky as well coming into the ninth with a lead aguilera gave up a solo hr to vaughn then hits to darryl hamilton and dickie thon before finally retiring the side once again the tying run made it to second base on aggie weak hearted twins fans are advised not to watch aggie in the ninth general news pedro munoz continues to improve as an outfielder playing in left field on tuesday s game he continues to bat weakly against right handed pitching though which has limited his playing time gene larkin and jt bruett former gopher have been playing right field as both can bat left handed the twins begin a three game series with the detroit tigers tomorrow starting pitching is tentatively scheduled as erickson mahomes banks the detroit tigers have had two run games in the last ten days and should provide quite a challenge to the young mn pitching staff the twins have hr s this year three each from puckett hrbek and winfield the third fourth and fifth batters respectively brian harper pegged of the first baserunners attempting to steal second this year and shows much improvement in this category jim deshaies has three pick offs and one balk this year some say he has the best st base move in baseball this move has enabled him to pitch out of some tight early jams and has certainly contributed to his start watch to see if umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly in response to opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the rubber on the pick off move current mlb al west standings from joesph hernandez jtchern ocb berkeley edu american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won
rec.sport.baseball	i want allstar tickets i want all star tickets does anyone know how i can get some are they for public sale or are they sold out or do you just have to work for a company with some anyway any answers would be appreciated please e mail me thanks andrew
rec.sport.baseball	re hits stolen first base in r pinnh a gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon you did mean defcon didn t you well no although i admit that s more exciting than a rat killer dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done a study on this paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard you want a study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not a scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th tim if you want an actual analysis of batting order look up analysis of baseball batting order by monte carlo simulation by freeze journal of the operations research scoiety of america no
rec.sport.baseball	a warning to homeowners low flying aircraft and astronomers oakland california sunday april th pm pdt jose mesa vs storm davis you have been warned gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is this is a fine strategy if you expect to run away with the division but the giants are going to need every break they can get if they want too hold that lead i don t think they can afford to be lackadaisical and say well it has worked pretty well so far and while we might be able to improve the results we don t think it is worth the risk mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first the two tend to go hand in hand cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re ny mets trivia question in article apr e big mko dec com francus e big mko dec com yoseff francus writes in article news duke edu simon hercules acpub duke edu writes name three ex met pitchers that have lost to every team in the majors except colorado and florida which two also defeated every team in the majors dan nolan ryan qualifies on both counts i would guess that viola is the other one who has beaten and also lost to every team in the majors viola has only played in the nl with the mets not possible for him to have defeated or lost to every team ditto for tanana who was mentioned in a previous post the rd pitcher to lose to every team is probably tom seaver but it could be koosman i don t remember if seaver managed to get a win against the white sox in his brief sojourn with boston so i d say the other pitcher to defeat every team is either mike torrez he bounced around enough for a long enough period of time or koosman as mentioned i would also guess that if one of these two did not manage to beat every team he did manage to lose to every team tom thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one s life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at
rec.sport.baseball	re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please with all the recent problems the indians have been having with their pitching staff i have heard numerous names thrown around about who could solve their problem one name i have not heard is mike soper rp as far as i know soper has had pretty good minor league stats why not give the kid a chance anyone know anything about this guy russell peterson everyone believes in something rbp sw stratus com i believe i ll have another beer
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is a right handed pitcher however hrbek s grand slam came off graehme lloyd a lefty salty
rec.sport.baseball	southpaw can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	baseball in spanish dateline tue apr in antonio pera of icop csa bu edu wrote to all at ap recently i heard the red sox on wrol a ap spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so ap unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find ap out how widespread this is being a ny native i know ap the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i ap wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish ap are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a ap local for the last couple of years the braves have been fostering a program to reach to the latin american audience this has included licensing spanish fan magazines encouraging spanish co broadcasts and marketing programs directed at the latin american community one of the biggest heros to the latin american audience has been francisco cabrerra a fact of which he was slightly embarrassed one funny story is that during spring training the braves played a game in mexico this game was broadcast back to atlanta in spanish it took the broadcasters a few innings to get a rythm going because they had to keep changing their location seems it took a while to find a place where they could get a clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game david deitch gis atlanta fidonet uucp uucp wittsend gisatl deitch gateway faq oo internet deitch gisatl fidonet org david deitch galaxy information system administrator gis atlanta u user david deitch fido via fidonet node jm
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing b wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient a hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren t any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he s and his mle was hr i have no fielding statistics but from seeing him a number of times last year i d say that he s not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it i think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he d shown that he was a good hitter spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him i suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be a reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be a catcher because his body type was wrong for a shortstop you d think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about a dozen times a year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down i just doubled it no confusion there it didn t require a rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would i had to protect my guys don drysdale
rec.sport.baseball	re apology for article in article c w zo xl eskimo com steven thornton writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes just watch me mattingly is a below average fielder before you start up yes i have proof there are really only two adequate ways to measure fielding prowess the first which has the advantage of being applicable to older players since it uses raw data available for almost all of mlb history is the total chances per game method favored by the total baseball people among others it basically says that you measure a fielder by how many balls he gets to but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of a first baseman s putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can t tell whether a double play was or fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors it thus favors first basemen who play deep reaching a lot of balls but forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently it also hurts first baseman who play behind left handed pitching staffs and thus face few left handed batters a better method but newer and based ondata that has only been collected over the last few years measures the percentage of balls hit into the part of the field the guy is responsible for this is better of course it still isn t all of a first baseman s defense some references mattingly s defensive rating stats method from mike gimbel s baseball player and team ratings defensive average which uses larger and probably better zones has mattingly tied for second in the league on the other hand he has contributed runs by his batting actions a pretty healthy number while batting runs is good it is mostly in the past the runs he produced in don t say much about his value in david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport in article mssc w g netcom com mark singer writes in article c vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes in a game that saw a little of everything incredible defense some power clutch pitching and a little wildness the reds managed to overcome their trademark lack of timely hitting in crucial situations during spring training i made a similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn s all screamed i assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments this is certainly not the case there is no significant ability toi perform in the clutch but clutch performance certainly happens every time there is a game winning hit the clutch pitching quoted above is something which happened not a claim that any particular player should be expected to be a clutch pitcher over the past four seasons sabo has had hits in abs defined as clutch situations by the scouting report for an average of over that same period he had another abs with hits for an average of according to the rest of the sdcn s any differential such as this is completely and totally random and cannot be used for any reasonable inference such as perhaps perez should have used a pinch hitter in that situation simple statistics tell me that there is a chance an average clutch hitter would have this large a split the average decrease is points standard deviation about there will be such hitters in any league just as there will be hitters who hit poorly on tuesdays and there is only a very weak correlation in my best study between clutch hitting in the last four years and clutch hitting this year probably because most of the clutch data is determinaed by luck rather than any ability based only on this data i don t see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been a poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you a platoon advantage any portion of sabo s clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run do you have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re mvp revisited in article r hf innc gap caltech edu tim shippert writes ideally dhs should be the strongest offensive players because any schmoe can play dh if he can hit that would take care of position corrected anomolies such as frank s since that is not the case and why not is it always this way then we are going to have trouble finding the true value of dhs using the same models as that for position players there are several reasons for this difference the main reason is that good hitters in their prime such as frank thomas and danny tartabull are rarely regular dh s even if they can t field it s more commonly a place to put aging veterans another use of the dh slot is to help a player come back from injury slowly getting his bat in the lineup without forcing him to play in the field i would expect such players to hit worse as dh s than they did during the rest of the season a third factor is that most player who split time between dh and first or the outfield don t hit as well as dh s for some reason reggie jackson was a good example in five years as a rf dh for the angels he hit like the old reggie when he was in right the second and third factors will be lost if players are considered by their primary position only a player who plays games in right and at dh will count only in the right fielders averages a logical starting place would be to look at defensive replacement value if you can find it for b or lf or something we can assume that if forced to play defense they would play at true zero value even though i doubt this is actually true for players like winfield and molitor this would let us discount the time they spend playing dh because that forces the team to find another real fielder to play this makes sense you might also look at it another way although the average offensive performance of a dh may be lower than for a left fielder the replacement level offensive performance is certainly lower if you are a left fielder but can t hit well enough to keep a job anywhere then you certainly can t hit well enough to keep a job at dh david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes sigh here we go again actually several scdn s stated that there were no definable skills that would make a hitter more likely to perform better in clutch situations vs non clutch situations however one might choose to define clutch right can you define such a skill must i if i were to say that batting average is a predictor that can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get a hit on a particular plate appearance is that only valid if i can define the skill in hitting a baseball that s all i ve said except i used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations and elsewhere on this thread sherri nichols repeats her position that batting average in clutch situations is a meaningless statistic for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future i ve suggested that the statistic is not necessarily meaningless here s the data for this situation non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct i ll try to avoid being insulting but it s difficult when you so cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an i don t pretend to understand but nobody is denying that there are people who have hit well in the clutch in the past but i challenge you to find a method to predict who will hit well in the clutch in the future which after all is what you are claiming you can do since one more time i did not claim to be able to predict the future i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work fine we have plenty of data obviously our preconceived biases must be coloring our work since you know clutch hitting is a well defined and consistent skill all of our failures not withstanding so i challenge you to prove it i guarantee you that if you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability you will have plenty of happy sdcns dancing around you i did not say that clutch hitting is well defined i said that the data is significant to me i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances but you aren t going to win any support by merely stating a position and claiming they are stupid so i must be right and big sigh i have not not not not not not not ever called you or anyone else on r s b stupid it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases yeah hindsight is always doesn t that make you bright this is a stupid argument and you know it ah i knew we could get to the name calling and there s that word you like so much a suggestion take data from and attempt to come up with some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in if that works we can then attempt to apply it to and beyond wait a minute i thought i first had to define clutch hitting do i or don t i you have made strong statements now back them up or be proven a total idiot i made two statements in my post i am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting i would have hit for sabo as for many of us make a number of written statements through this media about what we think will happen in baseball i m not shy about it i ll make the statement again i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random non clutch ab h clutch ab h so what could we expect in from mr carter well his composite ba through was through was through was so i think we have a pretty good idea of what kind of batting average he can produce in he hit not surprising huh also in non clutch ab h clutch ab h no this doesn t prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations as for above i have plenty of company john dewan of stats inc is the editor of the scouting report wherein the statistics regarding clutch hitting are compiled reported and referenced in the text bill james makes numerous references to a player s ability to hit well in the clutch i am not saying that i can predict the future any more than they are you and others are saying that your work renders their statements and mine meaningless i don t accept that which in your words proves that i am a total idiot stupid total idiot my my such hostility the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	mea culpa bosio no no like clinton and reno i accept full responsibility for this senseless disaster my wife and i picked this game to go to and thus caused the return of the pre season projected sox offense like all no no s bosio was good lucky hard grounder by vaughn off t martinez glove but straight to boone who threw to bosio at first and backed by good defense many non trivial groundouts the game was amazingly fast as the sox tended to go down quickly and hesketh was also working fast the sox relief pitching was ok the runs off quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and a hard line single which greenwell let get past him trying for a catch greenwell s mental stability is a serious concern i guess it has always been but his quirks were amusing back when he was an mvp candidate wednesday he got in a huff with johnson a after striking out on a bad inside pitch apparently johnson made an ok i ve got to stay focused gesture which iron mike interpreted as taunting and struck out to heavy booing the next two times as valentine noted last night he came up in the first after riles and quintana had walked to open the game can you say take the first pitch not mike who dribbled it into a the pi quoted bosio that this was a batting practice fastball next time up he also hit the first pitch a hard liner straight to kgjr in center he also made the pathetic error and failed to catch boone s hr which looked comparable to the ball lance johnson caught on the highlight reel that night is riles suppsoed to be good defensively i couldn t tell from the field angle but his range looked bad and he coughed a dp that cost a run or two why was he leadoff i hope fletcher gets well soon also on lineups pinella put bret boone fifth for reasons beyond me it seemed to work as he was with a hr and some good defense a wag behind us said he sure don t want to go back to calgary there is a theory that you put a leadoff type fifth because they ll likely lead off the second as boone did well now we face the hot angels and another power pitcher in langston a reminder that contest entries are open through next wednesday i expect a surge of pessimism by the way ties will be broken by earliest entry one entry per person or pseudonym please and easy on the pseudonyms dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb c in article cvbnetprime com cvalcour ptex prime com sorry i missed the posting wrote could some kind soul please email me a copy of mlb c thanks chris v cvalcour ptex prime com mlb c is archived on the internet baseball archive anoymous ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu you must use your full email username id as a password cd baseball schedules it s filed as mlb schedule program c for clarity schedules pre generated for east coast times are there as text files as well and a couple of teams tv schedules please send me more tv info if you have it on other teams matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re nicknaming frank bolick in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule wrote in article qu inn ti lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article qs pn f zippy telcom arizona edu r joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for a bag of used baseballs let s go expos one fun note from the rockies home opener i think frank bolick s nickname should be sarge because whenever we saw his name in denver for the expo series there was a big e next to it in the spirit of chris berman how about frank cerial bolick ho ho ha ha how about frank jacksonsuck bolick or frank cake icing bolick or frank it s not a cow but a bolick or frank how do you get a ribbon to stay on a birthday present bolick or frank burns bolick or frank lee bad player bolick or frank i suck not bolick and so on matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re southpaw in article ij news cso uiuc edu rap uxa cso uiuc edu underdog writes can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers i dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums the batter faces northeast and so when a pitcher is on the mound his left arm is to the south hence the term southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	re sbs hrs dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here s the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that s only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to a lot of people for homers i was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though i wasn t surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes winfield can t touch frank robinson or mel ott as far as i can tell you d also have a hard time convincing me to rate him better than or equal to clemente two sets of numbers career equivalent average and equivalent runs ruth aaron ott robinson clemente winfield ruth is in a class by himself for both rate eqa and total eqr performance aaron runs over everybody in the total category ott and robinson who lead winfield in both categories could be safely put ahead of ahead of him reggie too although he is barely ahead these numbers are normalized for league and park clemente is held down by some really anemic offensive production in his earliest years and was still productive when he died it is reasonably safe to assume he had runs more he could have gotten still jackson waner clemente and winfield form a pretty tight knot yes but a we were talking about peak level not career averages and b clemente was the best fielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly david m tate my free agent says he will be no one s but mine dtate pitt edu not even should steinbrenner himself try to seduce him prof of story probs he says but what player says to owner the big catullus write it on the wind or swift running water
rec.sport.baseball	bosio s no hitter i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand does anybody think vizquel was wrong to field the ball barehanded and if he failed to field it cleanly would it or should it have been an error or a hit judging from bosio s grimace when the ball bounced past him he must have thought it would go through for a hit whether vizquel was right or wrong he certainly made one hell of a play phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re apology for article in article grabiner apr germain harvard edu writes but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of a first baseman s putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can t tell whether a double play was or fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors but ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way range is not the only thing that makes a good firstbaseman the ability to field all sorts of balls thrown to him digging some out of the dirt stretching for others and so forth is important thus putouts do provide some information maybe what we need is a comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the first baseman vs how many he actually got jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	houston mailing list can anyone mail me the address of houston s mailing list thanks in advance j scott smithers smithers dcseq uscga edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox go down in smoke ii seattle oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two bases on ball in the first inning one runner left pitches i listened to the game on radio and listening to dave niehaus call the game was a real treat as long as they keep ron fairly quite i doubt if anyone is better than niehaus but that fairly guy is really annoying me but i guess if clemens or viola had been pitching it would have been a different story two shutouts in two nights against the hottest best hitting team in major league baseball pretty impressive in any league man if johnson bosio and hanson keep going the mariners could be a really interesting team to follow this year also john cummings rookie has had three solid outings with no support if fleming comes back this may be the best starting staff in the american league this year relief is another story though grimace too cool the first no hitter that i have been able to follow from start to end and again i think niehaus will win some kind of award for the way he called the game the guy is truly a joy to listen to he deserves a pennant race kent dietz twins in mariners if only they were an nl team follow
rec.sport.baseball	giants tickets for sale i m a season ticket holder and have a pair of s f giants tickets available for every game except opening day they re located in lower reserved section row they re two rows about feet behind the mvp lower box seats that go for apiece i m selling my tickets for pair here s the schedule for the next weeks e mail me if you re interested note all times are pacific daylight savings time apr new york pm apr new york pm apr montreal pm may montreal pm may montreal pm may philadelphia pm may philadelphia pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may houston pm may houston pm may houston pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june st louis pm june st louis pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm craig eid e mail address craige hpsad sad hp com
rec.sport.baseball	professional sports on fm radio i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.baseball	are the orioles phillies at home on mem day wkend subject sez it wondering if either team are in town that weekend i can probably get phillies tix as the vet can hold a bunch and i hope they re still in st but it s late may and camden yards is a problem is there any way of getting in the park w o an sro ticket any advice if there at home joe leonard jle world std com p s please reply directly to keep the net down to a dull roar
rec.sport.baseball	john franco what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure if there is anybody out there with information about franco i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re braves offense in article apr news acns nwu edu rsavage casbah acns nwu edu michael bornhorst writes i ve been a braves fan for as long as i ve been watching baseball almost years now i say that just tp preface what i m about to post this braves team is made up of slow starters people are amazed that the braves aren t hitting don t be they weren t hitting last year at this time nor were they the year before they had slow aprils and mays in the and seasons and yet they still managed to go to the series in those years well this team is no different so why should we be suprised at their slow start they started that way for the past two years and they ll be that way until the richmond club makes it to the majors judge their offense in june or july when things start to average out i m just happy that the reds have gotten off to such a poor start the giants always do well in the early part of the season but they ll be out of the race by july just like the last few years unless bond s developes a knuckelball their staff will get rocked by mid june wow you really know how to hurt a guy guess i shouldn t bother watching any more games it s already been decided luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article c xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i don t pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part cool and thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly name calling of others one of the basic things you need to have in a statistic to be able to predict a player s performance on it in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year a player s batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year ok the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn t seem to help much actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players as a counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you d bat maldonado for lemon in a blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data you won t hear those kind of accusations from me it is interesting that you selected maldonado because he is someone whom i have also looked at he has been a very inconsistent hitter in terms of ba hitting in admittedly he has been traded between leagues as well as clubs his clutch hitting record is equally inconsistent so for my purposes in i would not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based on his prior performance i don t know how i would have felt in but you may indeed be right when i looked at sabo i found a more consistent record of hitting and a more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately below his non clutch ba ditto for joe carter this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives a correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives a correlation of significant at no level of any interest i completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent basis actually it s technically incorrect to say that we can t predict future clutch performance it s more correct to say that we can t predict future clutch performance with any skill amen the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re professional sports on fm radio in article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what a joke a classic rock station at that whats the sports world coming to when i think of a good signature it will be right about here until then this stupid message will have to do go phillies
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes sigh here we go again you started it for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future you most certainly did non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter right i d call that predicting the future if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo one more time i did not claim to be able to predict the future i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo that comes down to the same thing when perez left sabo in he was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases most certainly as i have repeatedly stated if you can come up with a study which even hints at a consistent clutch ability i would love it however the straightforward attempts at such a study have all failed miserably yeah hindsight is always doesn t that make you bright this is a stupid argument and you know it ah i knew we could get to the name calling and there s that word you like so much well it was a stupid argument are you honestly debating that sure we know sabo didn t get a hit we have no idea whether samuel would have done any better or not one ab most certainly doesn t prove anything i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is a much stronger statement in fact it suggests a rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years i think you will agree that if the rule didn t work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in no this doesn t prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of why i shouldn t expect it to correlate stupid total idiot my my such hostility the stupid was in reference to a statement which was stupid and i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re seattle bb was re al stats and standings in article r rctinn dd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes griffey well most of it are intentional walks are you sure about this i d say pitching around him is more likely yeah maybe that is more likely but from the mariners tigers series it seems like every time there are base runners the pitchers seem to purposely pitch around him or give him a free pass the funny thing was that griffey was struggling up until the last game of the four game series if i remember correctly chung yang cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	good hands was re apology for article in article c w zo xl eskimo com stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes stuff deleted mattingly scores badly on both counts he doesn t get to very many balls and he lets a lot of balls go through the fact that he looks smooth has great hands and makes few errors means nothing this is traditional brainless reliance on observations that can easily be misled like a lot of bad fielders mattingly actually makes himself look better by not having any range he s nowhere near as bad as steve garvey but that s not much of a compliment i agree with the flavor of this post but disagree with one specific argument that has great hands means nothing it seems to me that a first baseman s defensive value is not entirely or even primarily from his ability to field grounders or catch popups how many such chances does he get during a game many fewer than he gets chances to catch throws from b ss b and p i mean the total of these is much higher than grounder popup totals this implies to me that there is value in catching these throws well even if they are high up the line or in the dirt good hands are needed for such plays and thus have value i don t have any numbers for the relative number of occurences of these plays but i d guess that the values of these abilities are similar it s just like you don t judge catcher s defense primarily on how they field bunts and popups but not as marked i suppose michael
rec.sport.baseball	yanks over a s george speaks how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that a hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it s mark connor s fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone
rec.sport.baseball	re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new i thought he was just letting it heal as of today s usa today john wetteland should come off of the dl tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend i forget who they play another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time derek lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer but it will be kind of a bullpen by committee also charles james if you don t care where you re going lehigh university then you ain t lost cej lehigh edu anonymous person in csc
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article wilbanks spot colorado edu wilbanks spot colorado edu kokopeli writes my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world so which one will officially be the end of the world i can see the end of the ws now well folks here it is bottom of the ninth bases loaded full count on sandberg in this game clemens winds heres the pitch swung on and it is a line drive to center zupcic moves to his left he s there and zot joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can be hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu to your health it sure won t help your reputation i bike therefore i am go red sox go celtics go seahawks go sonics
rec.sport.baseball	kevin mitchell does it again in what seems to be a classic mitchell move he drops a fly ball and injures his hamstring on the same play haven t heard anything on how serious the leg is paul who me bitter about mitchell s performance in seattle nah we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re professional sports on fm radio in article c y wt gpw news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what a joke at least we can hear the joke more than yards outside city limits now will wip ever strngthen their signal ken
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates ac though i d prefer to see texas hi tony i think that i might be able to help you out the rangers are here in toronto thursday july th through sunday july th and tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in advance although i don t have a ticket broker s telephone number off hand if you give me a couple of days i will be able to get a hold a of a couple the blue jays ticket info is or if you want to order by credit card call if you let me know when you want the tickets i can save you a possible long distance call if all else fails i might be able to pull a few strings and get you a pair let me know whats happening drew carley toronto canada deluxe go away or i shall taunt you a second time canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.baseball	the braves will come around to all the braves doubters don t worry the bats will come alive and the braves will come around the pitching is solid and as long the braves don t have serious injuries to the starting rotation they ll continue to pitch well heck with the five starters on the braves rotation they could even sustain an injury to one of the five i hope this doesn t happen though the bats are there pendleton will certainly bat over justice is catching fire bream nixon sanders gant well there s too much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer right now the cleveland indians have players batting over but i certainly wouldn t their seven for our respective seven though wouldn t the braves be something right now with their pitching and players batting over the bullpen well it is suspect but when the bats come alive the guys in the bullpen will be of less concern so anyway i believe the braves will be tough to beat this season i m not saying the braves have automatically won the division but i m optim istic about their season though it s awful painful to watch them at times right now go braves dean
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update i sent a version of this post out a while ago but it was swallowed by the void my apologies if anyone ends up receiving it sherri nichols writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes i just don t happen to think that the minutes added to the length of games over the last years has added anything interesting how would you quantify that i suppose an easy way would be to look at attendance figures anyone got the numbers attendance figures aren t going to quantify anything about my personal opinion which the above is clearly stated as add to me to the end of my sentence if you re confused about what i meant oh no i wasn t confused i understood that it was your personal opinion but i thought we were discussing the need to shorten games the arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage them from going to the ballpark i d like to see if the increased length of games has negatively affected attendance if it has then there is a problem and something should be done about it if it hasn t then there isn t a problem and there s no need to monkey with things as they are heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re reason for giants june swoon giants off to a fast start in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes in article nxm psuvm psu edu nxm psuvm psu edu writes the giants have won of their last games behind some solid pitching excluding that win against atlanta if they can stay around first place after say the first games i think they ve got a legitimate chance at winning the pennant and maybe even more than that don t you remember that the giants were in st place as late as june last year then their pitching collapsed their problem is they have optimistically only good starting pitchers swift brantly and the bowler can t remember his name the other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted before innings that means the already shallow bullpen gets over worked this means after a few months the bullpen collapses and their post all star record tends to be much worst than their pre all star record the bowler is john burkett who went to last night he is a bargain pickup on my roto team i got him at a minimum of just a thought does someone have the won lost pre post allstar records for the giants the last few seasons i bet their records tends to be worst and worst as the season goes on this is not really true excluding last season the giants has been a better nd half team in they had a hot august to pull to within a few games of the braves and dodgers before fading in september the giants may go back to earth but not as fast as last season for two reasons barry bonds roger craig is no longer the manager dusty can manage his pitching staffs much better than craig edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell right most definitely my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that i am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have a simplified lotto game you pick a number from and win if that number is drawn suppose we have a large population of people who play this game every week in the first year of the game approximately of the population will win or more times in the second year of the game of those time winners will again be time winners in the third year of the game of those who won or more times in each of the first two years will win again suppose i started with people in my population after three years i have people who have consistently in each of the last three years won or more the number of times expected do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game no because we know there is no skill involved nothing about these consistent winners can influence their chances of winning but suppose we don t know whether or not there is a chance that skill might be involved perhaps some of the people in our population are psychic or something how would we test this hypothesis we can look for correlations in the population now most of the population will show zero correlation but our psychics should show a high positive correlation even if they aren t very good psychics they should still manage to win or more times most years net result a small positive correlation over the entire population this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base well zero correlation is zero correlation you mention that sabo has hit poorly in the clutch over the last years but if we look at the past we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse as they are to remain consistent the length of the streak doesn t seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be clutch or choke the next year is there any reason to expect this streak to be different from past streaks now if it were true that of all three year streaks remained true to form then we might have something useful but then we wouldn t have zero correlation instead we have of all three year streaks remain true to form and of all three year streaks reverse you look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to choke this year but it would be equally valid to look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to be clutch this year since the probabilities are split each way i completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent basis then we would have something useful and we would also have a positive correlation but for every individual that exhibits such a pattern and holds true there is another who exhibits such a pattern and then reverses cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	teams as organisms stats or stats was re jack morris note i m not posting this as part of an argument with roger meynard but as an independent sort of thread i do actually quote some things that roger meynard wrote but it might be better to think of this as sampling his post in the hip hop sense because it fits in with what i want to say maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is a team game there s an interesting parallel between this way of viewing a baseball team and some people s conception of a biological organism in the biology context we would very likely read fitness for the score of the game and organisms for teams how we interpret players is trickier but either organs or genes might seem reasonable choices depending on what point we were trying to make a genes interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case but that would be a different and probably longer post if however we take the organ view then our knowledge of biology should make us pause before we start saying things like species x is more fit than species y because of a better organ z given what we know about the interdependence of organs we would often be suspicious of such claims but note that this type of argument is quite often made when you map species x onto humans and organ z onto brain on the other hand some statements of this kind do seem more reasonable than others as far as we can test them e g brain above might be more reasonable than pancreas assuming no gross pathology particularly if species y is a primate even when you make such statements you should be concerned with the functioning of the whole organism and the possibility that one organ might be more crucial for one species and a second organ in another not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial in some third species however if we are non vitalists with any kind of reductionsit streak we will want to say that an organism is not some completely magical unanalyzable whole but an intriguing process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are potentially observable some of these processes might be localized to particular organs while others may be distributed across multiple organs in a way this is just like a baseball team except that i think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved in baseball are much simpler and less numerous than in most organisms to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain one thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do but of course this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they can and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the absence of certainty most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better than another pitcher with those statistics as a criteria then fine in this cases we re seeing the word statistics means summary of observed events where the events themselves can be viewed as the output of some process and possibly inputs for other processes thus if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together into the functioning organism data in the form of statistics might give us a basis to test particular hypotheses but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual s contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of baseball this statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment you might be fit in one situation and not another moving to baseball it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an environment including all the other teams in the league in at least a nominal sense the division winners are the fittest teams in the league in that they on average had better fitness scores than any of their competing opponennts but in a real sense there is a fairly large random component in the performance of each team that is difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors intrinsic to or interesting for baseball the same is true in biology but here is also no direct biological equivalent of the world series in basebal in the world series the random component may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement where they were originally successful it might be fun to watch but it s unclear what it all really means now just one more un related point i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon on the other hand you have seen some of us who can predict the outcome of the divisional races better than a random assignment of teams to finishes and maybe some of us e g me who can do this better than the other participants in this forum on a regular basis but this is probably only due to the fact that a game schedule gives you a little hope that bad hops aren t the only difference between the winners and the losers moreover you ve had the opportunity to see some analysis of the world series situation that makes the strong claim that nobody can predict the ws winner with reliably greater accuracy than a coin biased only to reflect the well known home vs road effect on winning percentage the stats are a nice hobby and that s about it there is no new knowledge being produced since stats are summaries of events it s true that if you know the events you can derive the stats but if somebody is trying to understand the process behind the stats then the stats produce new knowledge and some of this might even be reliable repeatable and useful speaking of which i should get back to producing knowledge in a different field that is of course if i can produce knowledge even though i m relying on stats to do it jking
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes twins update posted april jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today s game deshaies was with a era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via a trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like a true genius minor correction hartley came in the west trade to phily deshaies signed as a free agent m over years he pitched for san diego last year regards maynard brandt cray research inc
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio s no hitter pb csc albany edu brown philip h writes i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning s paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems a litle cocky to me but he made it work so he s entitled doug dudgeon dept of chemical engineering bf dudgeon opus cheme washington edu university of washington seattle this space available
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport in article grabiner apr germain harvard edu grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article mssc w g netcom com mark singer writes based only on this data i don t see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been a poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you a platoon advantage any portion of sabo s clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run do you have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves hey what s this we agree no platoon advantage sabo vs samuel both players have a reputation of being excellent fastball hitters and both have a reputation of being fooled too often with slow curves and change ups sabo has more power and a little bit of a better batting eye samuel is noted as an agressive free swinger sabo has more homerun power both players started the game hitting below there may have been some game considerations that might have prompted perez to want to reserve samuel for use later but the game was on the line and samuel never did get in given all of this i don t see a lot to suggest pinch hitting nor do i see anything to suggest no pinch hitting there is of course the clutch hitting information but if that s useless then again if it s not david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	some baseball trivia who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing b wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient a hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren t any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he s and his mle was hr i have no fielding statistics but from seeing him a number of times last year i d say that he s not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it i think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he d shown that he was a good hitter spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him i suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be a reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be a catcher because his body type was wrong for a shortstop you d think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about a dozen times a year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down i just doubled it no confusion there it didn t require a rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would i had to protect my guys don drysdale in regard to boggs i ll relate a story about a yankee fan at fenway last year for opening day i was there to see them face baltimore and couldn t help but listen to the boston fans talk about various players on the team one guy was totally obliterating boggs how he sucks etc i told him i was a yankee fan and i d take him in a second and who would he want in a trade back he said a pile of sh t i know boggs had some personal problems while playing for boston but come on he s a future hall of famer who really adds a needed dimension to the yanks a solid hitter a decent fielder and more importantly a teacher ask pat kelly i think he s got a few good years left in his bat and may be a key contributor down the stretch as they win the american league east this year boston fans have no class they ll probably boo him like crazy his first time back in pinstripes and i hope he goes for and shuts them up
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in article r coinnhg gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in mssc qh y l p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes i did not write that in fact those statements were a rebuttal to an earlier posting that i made and this was culled from my strong rebuttal to those statements please slander shame there is a fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands a manager much like a military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during a game after the game it s no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff after the game it s no big deal after the employees leave the workplace it doesn t matter what they say about the boss or the company puhlease strawberry s demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands i suspect that a comment like i enjoy hitting fourth i m used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying i feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and i think i perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like a fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order first it s ross porter second i am really tired of seeing the kind of response that indicates that all i do is parrot what some media person says or writes i have a brain if i choose to characterize something in a certain fashion it s because that is what i believe to be accurate it is not just because some unnamed mediot made the characterization a more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then i am all for it we d ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems a little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl s response as petulant i did not brand darryl s response as petulant because i never heard any response from darryl i did call him a name i referred to him as a primadonna someone else concluded that i did that because i hate him i don t hate him i think he s a primadonna if you disagree fine but stop putting words in my mouth the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re strike zone width was re jose canseco s in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes well it s just studying tape frame by frame that s all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone i d sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did i just dream it then again players managers must not be too upset with the current wide strike zone mark pede wait a minute if i read the rules right a stike is any portion of the ball over any portion of the plate given that the ball is in diameter this sez that the zone width is or while this is still less than the number given i can forgive any ump for misjudging on an object moving at to miles per hour many times not in a straight line i think the umpires union has a great grasp of the rules david edwards
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article c xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players let s be careful here if players performance was completely random in clutch no clutch then you would still expect some players to be good in the clutch every year and some to be not so good every year with two years worth of data you d have of the players good each year bad each year and would have one good and one bad year we have players for years just flipping a coin you d expect players to be good all years and to be bad every year this is what we actually get no of good years clutch performers coin flip random essentially the distribution of clutch performers by number of years of good performance is the same as what you would get if the process leading to deviations from non clutch performance was completely random if there was anything to clutch hitting at least in this definition that had any predictive capability you expect to see the number of players at the ends to be much larger than that predicted by flipping a coin further if you limit yourself to players who were a lot above or below average in clutch situations say standard deviation from the mean more than one year the random explanation still looks good in the four years that i looked at the data from elias there were players with a minimum of at bats in clutch situations that were sigma from the mean two different years of those players of them changed sign between the two years in other words they were great clutch hitters one year and really horrible the other year if it was just a random process you d expect those numbers to be everything that s been measured about clutch hitting over a period of years that could be used to predict any ability with any proposed definition has looked like a random process with the caveat that there may be something related to platoon advantage that could be dragged out of the data e g john lowenstein probably never had a clutch ab against a left handed pitcher but he might well have had some in blowouts so that there would be a bias since his clutch abs would be more geared to his platoon advantage this is not a subject that has been glanced at casually a lot of people have put a lot of effort into studying it and every one of them with the exception of the elias study has been unable to find anything that would allow you to predict how someone will do in clutch situations better than flipping a coin self serving plug follows some of the flaws in the elias study are discussed in my paper in the forth coming sabr book the perfect game by taylor publishing the authors are supposed to get a slice of the advance so go bug your local bookstores now and maybe i can get enough to take my wife to dinner once harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	re camden yards in article apr uvm edu luh med uvm edu eddy luh writes anyone know how i can get some tickets to see the birds at camden yards more specifically anyone have confidence in any particular ticket agencies in the new england new york area that will be fair about prices tickets are very hard to get even at the box office at camden yards if you really want to see a game here i go to school in baltimore price should not be an issue tickets go up to but you should be willing to go as high as if you really want to come men go crazy in andrew kamholz something in me dark and sticky congregations but all the time it s getting strong they only get better sting no way of dealing with this feeling one by one peter gabriel can t go on like this too long
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th timothy cree timothy lamar colostate edu wrote in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done a study on this you want a study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not a scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th i had thought that williams batted after mitchell wouldn t that show that williams does better at th rather than th the point is moot though becase clark pretty much demands to be rd and like you point out bonds does like to bat th the only person left to bat th is williams mike west west esd dl nec com
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today s rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned a win no way i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction mike i bleed the blue of dodgers and even like lasorda spaghetti sauce
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article apr princeton edu niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent writes in article p psilink com dennis g parslow p psilink com writes to beat a dead horse i seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan i believe he was well out of baseball by the time he died but that s besides the point i m sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him a lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets a couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time uh he also has been charged with chasing his wife in a car and smashing it into a tree as well as carrying a loaded firearm in his car and the speeding reported was over mph reckless driving or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as a sign of their immaturity etc actually i hadn t heard about this thanks meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and i didn t read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but i never read anywhere criticism of dykstra s character or daulton s intelligence for that matter based on this incident i don t know what you were reading or watching but i sure saw a lot about that and about dykstra s poker games most of the writing was along the lines of how incredibly stupid and selfish it was and how he d hurt the team by wracking himself and the catcher up etc espn raised questions about his judgement etc the print media here in the sf area questioned why disciplinary action wouldn t be taken against dykstra and one article pointed out that if lenny wanted to kill himself there were ways that wouldn t endanger other people s lives then there was dykstra himself being quoted on how stupid it was etc mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio no hits red soxs swhitfield gallua gallaudet edu writes chris bosio a seattle m s pitcher just no hit the red sox this is the second no hitter in seattle history randy johnson got the first also this was bosio s first career no hitter this is mlb first no hitter this year go m s trivia time ok we all know that dave my batting average is down in the valle caught chris bosio s no hitter last night and is batting over btw here is the question who caught randy johnson s no hitter in june of hint not dave valle the mad kobold is douglas todd norris n henson cc wwu edu depeche mode u they might be giants inxs o m d a ha the police exercise your basic rights we could build a building site from the bricks of shame is built the hope depeche mode if you want van canucks sea supersonics sea mariners sea seahawks st rnd nd th th congratulations to chris bosio mariners on his no hitter of boston
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading i really really doubt that you meant to say this mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	info on j t snow i m sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by rookie j t snow of the california angeles other than the fact that his father was a star receiver with the l a rams and is now a radio personality in los angeles and j t came from the yankees organization i don t know much about j t if anyone has info and background on the young fenom please post by the way for those of you not following his exploits he has hit four home runs in three days two last night he has also delivered the winning hit a couple of times for the angeles in this young season thanks michael from usc
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article he p zola esd sgi com archer elysium esd sgi com archer bad cop surly writes in m nll s ahc udcps cps udayton edu mbohler udcps cps udayton edu michael bohler writes to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to i m talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin a lot less and counts and a quicker game they tried that in the s and people stopped coming to the ballparks in droves as offense suffered immensely they lowered the mound first before the season the shrinkage of the strike zone didn t start until the mid s scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes thanks for the numbers they portray a true image in many ways i accept them the first ones and the second is winfield ba really only around
rec.sport.baseball	re re re all time best players in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly wanna go to a game sometime jesus christ boy have you not heard of the real all time best steve balboni now that s yankee pride
rec.sport.baseball	re the all time greats team in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes uhhhhh winfield has a carrer slugging average of career peak no during winfield s peak his slugging average was an average of points above the league average mel ott s is hank aaron s is and frank robinson s is in their worst years of their peak they are still better than winfield in his best peak year winfield s best is above the average ott s worst is above the average and robinson s worst is above the league average career no slugging big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry and andre dawson can easliy surpass this for a career slugging average so unless there are some real stats that make winfield worthy of the team he won t even be allowed to be water boy p s eddie gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is tons better than winfield s check your facts andre dawson s career slugging pct is in the s so is winny s i would like to see your facts winny has probably done better than points above with a carrer slg of check on more important stats defense and heart batting average rbi s peak and career especially career winny ranks in the top outfielders of all time you are using bs to make your standings and i would like to know where you are getting your numbers from
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article r dln oqm transfer stratus com jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio s uhhhh where is winfield henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson s butt at what basestealing not henderson s all time leader and is good for about runs worth of sb lifetime winfield is about sb behind and has a net runs on base average winfield s best year was nine points below henderson s lifetime oba lifetime the diff is points slugging winfield by points they re both good ofs though winfield looks better with his huge bod winfield s best year henderson tb iii gives henderson a total player rating of winfield of they have rickey as a much better fielder which i don t buy but henderson is simply the best leadoff hitter of all time and winfield isn t the best anything of all time henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all time arguably winfield has meant more to his team than henderson unlike daryll henderson tries hard he is an amazing centerfielder rickey is very good maybe better than winfield i was angry at the dissing of winfield though winfield has been better than henderson lately check the numbers winfield may surprise you he will have basehits and should have homeruns when he retires wishful thiniking if he plays to
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ch ns cc lehigh edu chris hartzell writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be don is good but so was keith hernandez i just heard don talk about how he learned how to be a good fielder by talking and watching keith play jt snow
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article c w le jpk ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes michael lurie the liberalizer writes henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson s butt well you re absolutely completely dead wrong but thanks for playing as soon as i get to my office i ll be happy to post rickey and dave s career lines both are very fine players but henderson has consistently been better as for rickey slacking due to his contract problems this year any comments considering he s basically picked up the entire team and put them on his back i think he deserves a little slack and i think he deserves a year extension at m per year quickly i was upset at people dissing winfield henderson is the better player winfield can come close though lets see what rickey does for the rest of his career people forget how good winny was in the s and also how great rickey was
rec.sport.baseball	re sbs hrs in article c ws k hqc odin corp sgi com dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list thanks dan ya think winfield is on it
rec.sport.baseball	triva question on bosio s no hitter i don t actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for a back end perfect game how many other games including extra inning games have seen a pitcher retire straight excluding official perfect games the only other instance of this i know about for sure is the famous ernie shore game which counts as a perfect one according to those goons in cooperstown shore came into the game when boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown out for arguing over the first batter walk shore picked him off and retired straight after that matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	mattingly just to add to this vein consider that range of a first baseman is not the only important thing he is imo the best fielder of bad throws from the other infielders i have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt catch balls off a large bounce take down balls over his head wide etc ad infinitum and he gets the out much of the time some of the things he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing you have to give mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot near the bag yes i am sure he gets a few calls because he is mattingly keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest in article rd interlan com tonyf rm interlan com tony fernandez writes the marlins tried something like this and was a complete failure on opening day instead of having a th inning stretch with the singing of take me out to the ballgame they had some young women on the field lead the crowd into doing aerobics while the pa was playing gloria estefan s get on your feet the fans actually booed and started singing take me out on their own i actually kind of felt sorry for the girls are you kidding i m stuck with the toronto skydome where their idea of a th inning stretch is that blue jays song where everyone gets to yell okay okay blue jays blue jays let s play ball wow what genius did it take to compose that one to outshine the old classic and there are women on the field to lead the crowd then again this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the grounds crew and the word ground is used loosely than it is by the outstanding plays by the opponents fielders
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team anyone have any idea how to get japanese league stats regularly in the us matt wall cc swarthmore edu in article f v moqf lab ntt jp yajima nttcom ntt jp yajima hiroshi wrote tuesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult x w ito l nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	rules on line well i m finally about to key in the official rules for the archives but before i do i will ask again does anybody have the official mlb rules in electronic format just trying to save myself a ton of work no they don t scan well because of the ridiculous format they re printed in thanks matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re indians pitching in article apr ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham wrote in article apr bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes wow the tribe gave up more runs last night their era is and opponents are hitting against them the front office is excited about calling matt young up next week to join the rotation well excited doesn t exactly mean happy in this case it means our contract says we have to bring him up by or release him and we need to find somebody someplace to do something until some of the injured pitchers recover and some of the young pitchers get ready so we best get a move on ok so it s not the primary definition so sue me rg lakewood pain allpaper all lerc statistical baseball league lakewood pain allpaper tomorrow s heroes league i m a little worried about this pitching thing is scarry even for the first games of the season mesa sp seems to be settling down he pitched well against the red soxs but the rocket matched him i got a chance to watch them play against california wednesday and he pitched well also then the dam broke wickander came in and promptly it was run homer by snow i heard the guys on espn say that of the tribe s top prospects are pitchers anyone out there like to post who these guys are and where they are the tribe is on espn again tonight against oakland john r cogar always expect the worst cogar g mac nswc navy mil join the cleveland sports fan society
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take a look at the standings it s real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it s working you don t screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different so that is the reason why the toronto blue jays should keep alfredo griffin just because it worked a team winning doesn t mean that everything that it s doing is right a team not winning doesn t mean that everything that it s doing is wrong or otherwise to borrow the sharks situation you would say that george kingston should be fired some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is by then it s too late the problem with not fixing something while it s working is that by then there may not be anything left to fix mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first so the blue jays were simply perfect last year there was nothing that they could have done to have improved that team not go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco jason lee asks what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure you must have heard wrong his arm is still sore he hasn t gone on the dl but he may managmenet is treating him as a day to day situation his doctors thought that he was ready and they had him throw in colorado but his arm wasn t up to the strain he is throwing every day but he s just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet this is based on an interview that he gave on wfan ny radio on thursday jon lyons jon k lyons att com at t bell laboratories att jon k lyons
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked i was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won i haven t paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base i m wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away if this is indeed a new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily as for his patience dennis martinez definitely did not have his good stuff if he was grooving pitches to andres you can hardly fault him for drilling them which he did does andres generally start hot or cold does it take until may for most pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away roger healey
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list update just wanted to let all the people who e mailed me about a possible cardinals mailing list that i wasn t able to get the ok to host the list here so someone else will have to do it many thanks to bob netherton for his helpful info dick detweiler
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes quoted for future reference shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel he believed one of two things sabo was more likely than samuel to get a hit or that more good would be done in the long run by leaving sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome in fact you don t know what perez had in mind when he left sabo in by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite in fact i don t think anyone is claiming that they can predict the future or any particular future event but we can believe that certain trends are due to a cause whether or not we have identified the cause and therefore will continue and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i think seeing insults in other people s opinions is kind of silly after all mark didn t call you a total idiot or call your work stupid he simply stated that it didn t change his opinion on the subject i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret if player a hits better on tuesdays and always has and mark believes that it might be an indication that he will hit on tuesday better next season as well would you respond the same way at some point you might admit that all variable might not be known to you who knows what this guy does every monday night maybe he sees his sports shrink on tuesday mornings or has his vitamin b shots monday nights but this is something that s true of one guy only it doesn t mean that there will be a meaningful correlation for the entire league by days of the week nor that there should be but it doesn t mean we can t make predictions based on that for that particular player i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall i only see a prediction for one player here i don t see anything about all batters here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in that s exactly what mark is trying to do though find hitters that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions for these hitters based on their past performance major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a huh what does gambler s fallacy have to do with anything whether you can know the reason for correlation or not you can t deny that it has existent you can only make an argument that you don t think it is likely to continue to exist because you can t see a reason for it to exist run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate the argument along the lines of star player with l r splits will always see an adverse condition in late innings of a close game i e opposing manager will always bring in a ah pitcher to face him where his manager will not pull him for a ph i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind what about you if the shoe fits will you wear it with an open mind rudy
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update paul csd csd uwm edu paul r krueger writes in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is a right handed pitcher however hrbek s grand slam came off graehme lloyd a lefty salty my mistake chuck
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield s peak years anyway probably around
rec.sport.baseball	winfield has re sbs hrs in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here s the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that s only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to a lot of people for homers i was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though i wasn t surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details in fact he s a complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he s back to being a dickhead in r s bb i was in fact going to suggest that roger take his way of discussion over to r s football pro there this kind of hormone only reasoning is the standard being he canadian and hockey what it is i would have suggested that r s h would work too it is important in a thread that everyone involved use the same body part to produce a post brain being the organ of choice here g bonvicini bonvicin cernvm cern ch
rec.sport.baseball	re babe s pitching babe ruth s lifetime pitching stats selected era g cg sho rat best year bos era led league or bos era steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com mjones fenway organization eskimo north eskimo com yeah morris just knows how to win that s why he lost for detroit in funny how he wins a lot of games when he pitches on good teams but loses a lot when he pitches on bad ones and if rings was the only criteria for success then teams would always tend to repeat and eventually you d have the same team win the ws every bleepin year sort of like the yanks in the s morris is a decent pitcher on the downside of a good not great career toronto will finish rd or th this year with morris and all those rings because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off season steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio s uhhhh where is winfield henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	re box score abbrev woes in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn i ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is a person from ap whose job it is to type it up using a template on a laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap s news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of a laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow s paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr blurt oswego edu ma ind blurt oswego edu writes i believe that rusty staub was also a jewish ball player rust staub is not jewish in fact i think his father was a minister scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm b w w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re new home for the bosox in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes while we re on the multipurpose subject let s not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium i think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football minor point shea stadium was designed as a multi purpose stadium but not with the jets in mind as the tennant the new york football giants had moved to yankee stadium from the polo grounds in and was having problem with stadium management the city did not own yankee stadium until the idea was to get the giants to move into shea when a deal was worked out between the giants and the yankees the new afl franchise the new york titans approached the city about using the new stadium the titans were playing in downing stadium where the cosmos played soccer in the s because shea stadium was tied into the world s fair anyway the city thought it would be a novel idea to promote the new franchise and the world s fair like they were doing with the mets so the deal was worked out of course with the jets gone to jersey and a truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where because it s circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is i m under the impression that when murph says it he means it as a regular goer to shea it is not a bad place since they ve cleaned and renovated the place remember this is its th year scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re darrrrrrrrryl in article mssc kcru ip netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into a tirade at the man all reports indicate he used a lot of profanity and accused the man of interference and therefore of costing the dodgers a game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him to another area in an interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into a tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don t care about winning l a times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch sounds like darryl being darryl tommy spending too much time on slim fast and needs a pasta fix and the media being their usual charming selves sounds like a new york like story to me i saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is i didn t realize the folks in la were making a big to do about it i think stawberry lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch the replay then apologize to the fan others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has a grand total of rbi through the first nine games darryl has not gotten off to a good start he has to blame someone but i guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan as long as the fan doesn t interfere with the play i see no problems scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	tigers win pitching duel yes it s true on a cold damp night last night at tiger stadium dave wells david haas bob macdonald and mike henneman combined for a victory over the texas rangers here are the highlights r h e texas detroit wells gets the win he s now with an era just under and henneman gets his third save in three chances ken rogers started for the rangers and gets the loss he was relieved by burns in the th the rangers got their only run on a solo home run by dean palmer in the th the tigers opened the scoring with an rbi single by fryman in the rd then took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when whitaker greeted reliever burns with an rbi double which scored tettleton whitaker in turn crossed the plate on an rbi single by phillips who has been red hot for the third tiger run this afternoon it s another battle of southpaws bill krueger for the tigers vs craig lefferts for the rangers randy p s toronto blue jay fans thanks for wells and macdonald those guys have really been a big help to the tigers pitching staff
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article r avinnb q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado dave spencer mead data central miamisburg ohio ggggg oooo g o o daves meaddata com g gg o o ggggg oooo a a ttt rrr iii bbb eee o t r r i b b e t rrr i bbb eee t rr i b b e t r r iii bbb eee
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article pn ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does quite honestly this one is ridiculous consider the following scenario runner on third as the pitcher starts to throw home the runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for the suicide squeeze the pitcher seeing this does not throw home but stops in mid action and puts the runner in a run down it is the balk rule that prevents this from happening believe it or not this actually happened to me once in an oba ontario baseball association game in milton ontario i was the batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that i played ball this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again against seattle last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes where did acker get a ring from i would have to say that they are about even i believe acker got a ring from his wife when they were married the blue jays had such a strong offense don t tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs i don t know why you guys keep bickering about morris the stats show he is a mediocre pitcher at best this year is another case he just happened to win games i saw many of his games last year he did pitch some good games but this crap about being a clutch pitcher is nonsense he was constantly giving up go ahead runs in the th innings the clutch innings and the jays would somehow scrape a win for him another major factor in his wins is that cito i dont realize i have a bullpen gaston would leave morris in for ever therefore giving him many more chances to win games i believe this is the major reason he won games last year barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions
rec.sport.baseball	rusty s religion as i recall from kieth hernandez auto biography rusty is a devout roman catholic kieth and rusty would carpool to shea everyday but sunday when rusty would go to mass sc
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns the best one i saw last year was willie mcgee off matthews i think in phillie a fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit the second deck facade at the vet willie mcgee had one homerun last year eric
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball in spanish in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes recently i heard the red sox on wrol a spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find out how widespread this is being a ny native i know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a local the braves day games are broadcast is spanish on a station called la favorita the station has a daytime liscence only minardi michael j georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism mm internet mm prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again against seattle in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns be fair he did walk batters in ip he also allowed only three hits none for extra bases only one run a pretty good outing all told i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight there is no such thing as a must win game this early in the season and we can always hope that darwin pitches well cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	todd worrell update according to an article in the la times todd worrell will not be ready to come off the dl list friday it sounds like he has had another set back in his come back at present he has stopped throwing the ball supposedly he had no velocity it doesn t sound like there is any particular time table at this point for when he will be back dodger
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes the official mlb formula for obp is hits plus walks plus hit by pitch divided by at bats plus walks plus hit by pitch plus sacrifice flies sac bunts and errors have no effect source total baseball and they sure they might if an error is recorded on for example a ground ball ie the batter would otherwise be out it is officially a hitless at bat if it s some other type of error greenwell lets a single go by it doesn t effect the obp but most errors are counted cuz
rec.sport.baseball	wounded redbirds does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha
rec.sport.baseball	what does jeff king suck t was second guessing the pirates ken ziolkowski transarc com writes i m still hoping for a season from the bucs but i really wished they would have coughed up the to keep doug around actually i was hoping for barry bonds oh well p s jeff king still sucks check this out from the latest mcweekly ba slg obp hr rbi jeff king jose lind first off jeff has had like hits in the last two games and walked yet again sorry ken but jeff king does have some power which means his slg won t be below and his walks are way up if that increase is real jeff king will be an above average nl third baseman in jose lind on the other hand still doesn t walk and clearly isn t a hitter my bet is that he won t be getting any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the lind shift we were seeing in the nl any predictions as to when he is sent to buffalo or released outright no although since the lavalliere weirdness nothing would really surprise me jeff king is currently in the top in the league in walks something is up jking
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article r ejr tb meaddata meaddata com daves meaddata com dave spencer writes in article r avinnb q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado without opening this up for a sabermetric flame war i would like to question the notion that sitting a rested player down has any real effect on his long term performance sure if a man is tired and needs real rest then taking a break might be a constructive act perhaps if a man is mentally strained then sitting him down might help to the extent that that helps him relax but i would like to suggest that in the long run players do slump and benching is probably irrelevant paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article of rec sport baseball healey qucdn queensu ca roger healey wrote the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked i was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won i haven t paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base i m wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away if this is indeed a new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily yes the stance is new don baylor was his batting coach at st louis last year and now as his manager is continuing to work with him maybe andres has a weak left eye and the open stance gives him a better look at the ball or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics i dunno but the change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as years ago his selectivity has not changed gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr o cr colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard says to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain to take this to its er logical conclusion it is impossible to ascertain whether or not i am a better hitter than roberto alomar or a better pitcher than juan guzman or a better center fielder than devon white after all if i were on the blue jays can you really prove that they wouldn t have won the world series in both and while i thank you mister maynard for your faith in my atheletic prowess i can assure you that your faith is misplaced bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira says rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and i am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as a book with statistics while the elias analyst is a statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing i don t see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially a laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called a bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum says yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however i would take back a few moves the jim abbott trade bleagh this was a terrific trade snow will certainly be better than mattingly in the future but that they ll be about the same now is a defensible opinion abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in the game today wade boggs i m not sure about this one i think that it s good in that a pre boggs kicks hayes meulens whoevers ass and that a boggs still isn t all that shabby it s bad though that the yankees expect a pre boggs and will probably get a boggs however i d still play boggs over hayes or bam bam spike owen you have my full agreement here he s not all that much better than velarde and silvestri is just about a lock to be better than him however i do enjoy the fact that spike is not a nickname not that this helps the yankees danny tartabull i strongly disagree i d much much rather have a hundred games of tartabull and sixty games of dion james than games of james bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be why bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save mikef bvc edu writes in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today s rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs this is a phenomenon known around work as ready fire aim i am astounded at the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only don t understand but publicly admit to not understanding in fact there s a plausible argument that saves are a more rational stat than wins for the record there are two ways that a reliever can get a save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned a win no way but this is an argument that wins is a dumb stat not saves i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction this again doesn t support your claim about saves at the beginning of your post mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design frederick p brooks jr the mythical man month
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save as far as i know a save opportunity is when it is th inning or beyond and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game for example if it is the bottom of the th inning and clemens is pithching the red sox are leading and clemens has just givin up a hit so there is a man on first the batter and the batter on deck could tie the game with a homer if jeff russel came in the red sox reliever and finished the game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score he would get the save and clemens would get the win thats how i beleive it works hope i could help the cowboy
rec.sport.baseball	dennis martinez what s up i know there s been a lot of talk about jack morris horrible start but what about dennis martinez last i checked he s with era is the ageless wonder finally showing his age does he usually start off the season so slowly i know he plans to start tonight i hope he comes around i would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of dennis martinez s season thanks in advance mike
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest stance was re ugliest swing in article c thz lr world std com tac world std com tackey chan writes ugliest swing i am not sure i think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger i wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike zone he s just lucky that strike zone size isn t determined by how big your afro is i m outta here like vladimir alan
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes do you have a better e mail address mr lurie i m afraid i can t get the short version to work in any case on winfield yes his career ba is a mere he didn t beat this until his sixth year in the majors and has only topped it once since his peak was in the early s and included some rather impressive seasons but then he s also had other scattered great performances like and definitely not a smooth career curve cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke seattle in article apr galileo cc rochester edu ec b uhura cc rochester edu wizard writes in jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes just had to respond to the bosox boasts i e bosox win again see red sox fans can never do anything right in your mind huh if we get excited about the sox winning you tell us it is going to be over soon if we worry that it ll be over soon you say that we are not true fans i am a sox fan and i think after what ive been through being a sox fan that sox fans are true fans i am excited at what they are doing so greenwell was horrible against johnson who cares the sox are with all non darwin starts what are the mariners i think the sox have the best record in baseball still so they lost one darn johnson is a quality pitcher and not the only quality mariner pitcher i logged on expecting to see at least one congratulatory note for chris bosio s no hitter but nary a peep so i ll take this opportunity to note that the red feet are now and slinking out of town without having scored a run in the last two games or even a hit in last night s gem not that we m s fans can compare our suffering to those of the followers of new england s long running tragedy but only one winning season in history is something of a burden to bear so we ll take our joys when we can get em the mariners now have two no hit pitchers on the staff and not coincidentally those pitchers beat the red sox in back to back games jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm b w w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season the only problem is dave kingman was always taking off rosh hashana yom kippur easter the day elvis died the entire spring training month of ramadan purim the th of july both games that day my birthday ok during the world series he never had to play there memorial day both games that day guys help me out here i ve run fresh out of holidays that coincide with the baseball season and i m trying to catalogue all the days in his career that dave kingman or at least his bat went awol a complete religious calendar detailing every holiday in every extant religion in the western hemisphere would be appreciated only then can we truly be certain that dave kingman observed every holiday ever conceived of course not scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	re juan gonzalez hr title not real come back ten years from now and look at the careers of juan gonzalez vs mark mcguire and then tell us how bogus the juanderful one s hr title was i d say that by juan will be preparing his hof acceptance speech while the voters will be saying mark mcwho ken melcher i am typing real slow because e mail kmelcher arco com i know you can t read very fast
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest stance was re ugliest swing alan all in all it s just another sepinwall writes ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike zone he s just lucky that strike zone size isn t determined by how big your afro is i agree however i have to object growing up in the early s and playing years of mario mendoza esque little league i was told that since my hitting well sucked i would do best to either walk or take one in the face for the team i did both and my yankee fan father would say bat like oscar gamble so i did and my career obp was about not only was oscar a fun guy to watch but he had some pretty cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league players in history i m outta here like vladimir alan jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for wed apr st mlb standings and scores for wednesday april st including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won st louis cardinals won chicago cubs won montreal expos won pittsburgh pirates lost new york mets lost florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won minnesota twins won chicago white sox won oakland athletics won seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros chicago white sox chicago cubs baltimore orioles los angeles dodgers texas rangers montreal expos detroit tigers cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals san diego padres cleveland indians philadelphia phillies california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies boston red sox st louis cardinals seattle mariners joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco in article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him don t worry this is a perfectly normal state of affairs had they actually been using him you should be worried i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure he s recovered totally from his injury that s why he s not pitching so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again pitching on days rest and then have fun dining in the diamond club in shea stadium while ay struggles every day out there if there is anybody out there with information about franco i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line i ve be quite happy to drop john franco just the same bring back randy myers no better make that bring back neil allen jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier jason a miller some doctor guy tanana
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future you most certainly did i really don t want to get into a didso didnot debate with you but this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement i did not say nor did i imply that i could predict the future you have inferred that my comments meant this and you have based your rebuttal of my comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in regard to clutch hitting sabo samuel sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter right i d call that predicting the future that is your opinion that sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel the above data is for a year period ending last season last season samuel batted while sabo hit not park adjusted this season they are both hitting below albeit sabo with more at bats i will agree that over his career sabo has been a better hitter than samuel but i will also remind you that samuel has been a better hitter in certain situations than sabo i did not predict that sabo would choke nor that samuel would get a hit i expressed my opinion that had i been the reds manager or even a reds fan that i would prefer to have samuel hit in that situation than sabo if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly ah properly yes i see even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo please help me what exactly is everything else that pointed to sabo well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i must say i was not aware of the publication can you email me the information regarding its availability and i guess i must apologize to all of those who have done extensive study on say supply side economics i didn t mean to insult you but i never did believe you were on the right path i m sorry for my contrary opinion position i also regret that i don t have the ability to prove that you are wrong but you are i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall it is what it says it is if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is a much stronger statement in fact it suggests a rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years i think you will agree that if the rule didn t work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right the second is your statement not mine i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in well actually i haven t yet but i m not finished looking that is i haven t yet found someone who hit significantly below his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years and then reversed that relationship in gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of why i shouldn t expect it to correlate nope sorry but if you were interested in a reason why i expect chris sabo s ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next i think i could if you were interested in a reason why i expect joe carter s ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next i think i could but you re not interested in that because you think that those conclusions could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire baseball population and they can t be the stupid was in reference to a statement which was stupid and i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely the problem here is that i do believe you i accept your work i believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based on prior clutch history is meaningless no better than a coin toss i actually do accept your work as it happens i also have an opinion that in certain situations for certain players a history of superior or inferior ability to hit in the clutch might suggest a reason what such history could be valid in projecting future player performance for that player and chris sabo is one such player so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind well since i defer to your statistical wisdom i think i must have an open mind now we have to pose the same question to you the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that i am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have a simplified lotto game detailed explanation deleted indeed you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement to rebut my opinion you have made an analogy with a game of chance your hypothesis assumes that the lotto players have no impact on the selection of the numbers and hence their ability to win well that s certainly true in lotto but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of baseball when you start down the wrong path you finish down the wrong path i repeat i do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting performance i do however think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance may for some players indicate a deficiency in their game that indeed will provide a basis for projecting their particular future performance and i think chris sabo is such a player the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re some baseball trivia in article texdude cs bradley edu texdude cs bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu i ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career k s with one team if it s not ryan perhaps steve carlton with the rangers hough was there for a long time in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least a hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak don t know about the homers steals dept in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too and in randy johnson s no hitter i think it was scott bradley the other half of the old mariner catching platoon who was behind the plate that night david plurad
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article quonm c network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes there s too many s here for my taste by now which means i ve reached my maximum depth on this thread i ve cut out some things below but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion i agree i ll delete more as well fester island com mike fester writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes perhaps you can give a more recent citation of any player mentioned as a malingerer thanks i guess i don t understand your question i was trying to imply that the accusations of glenn davis malingering were certainly not played up very much still if the whispers reached san francisco it is certainly possible they were stronger elsewhere also it was teammates making the aspersions in any event i know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years but in any case i believe mike lavalliere has been accused of poor work habits and general sloth recently probably not malingering just as he was being released it s interesting that nobody heard much about these problems before if they were so important i have heard sanders called many things as well i have not heard him called lazy given the sport phenomenon it would be difficult to label him as such exactly so which means his media detractors have had to say other things about him i believe it s a general phenomenon that if writers don t like you they ll find a label that will stick no matter who you are i find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in why writers feel they need to act this way not that this fascinates me that much either uh the original author s point was that black and white players were por trayed differently by the media and towards this he gave a highly selected list to prove his case sanders name showed up eventually i dispute that sanders has ever been called lazy by the media hmm big ego possible club house disturbance etc is that good press no but it isn t the total extent of the press he received in pittsburgh where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and spoiled by the local columnists again the actual words used may shift around with time and expediency but lazy tends to be higher on the list for non white players at least in my subjective opinion aside it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken and on teams like the red sox which have been traditionally white nowadays most people think of carl yastrzemski as one of those blue collar hard working guys but in the early s he was often portrayed as a lazy bum really hmm i never heard anyone accuse canseco of being lazy nor sierra i ve heard accusations that canseco was a bad fielder but could be a great one if he put his mind to it ignoring whether or not he is a actually dave stewart is was one of the most vocal about this in any event that is not lazy at least one poster in the last week has fired off a major screed on the canseco is lazy issue so i think your point is at best a quibble and probably weaker than that uh that poster specifically stated allow me to be the first it is not a quibble then to state that the media did not portray canseco as being lazy if the other person chooses to so accuse him after my post that does not make it a quibble and in fact the media around here tend ed to play up his time in the wieght room hardly lazy and hardly a quibble have you ever seen any mediot portray canseco as lazy unconcerned with his fielding yes lazy no bad fielder i think this is still interesting for that matter i think canseco s colorful off field antics get lots more national attention than those of say roger clemens well he s had a few more of them at least more that you ve heard about i think one of the questions here surrounds selective reporting having said that i have to say that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be unfalsifiable at least by those of us who aren t reporters police or private investigators well canseco has been involved in several felonies including his high speed record carrying concealed fire arms and of course the domestic violence clemens had a run in at a bar canseco had that as well and in both cases the coverage was relatively minimal puckett stewart jackson i said over represent non whites three anecdotal data points don t make an interesting counter argument btw which jackson are we talking about here reggie bo darrin danny or uh if the only evidence offered is anecdotal how can it be objected that the counter to it is also anecdotal and it seems like everybody who has ever won a batting title among others has been accused at some time of caring more for his own stats than for the good of the team it also seems to me that you re kirby puckett i have never heard this accusation made of puckett i have heard it of boggs actually i believe it of him but that s another matter not living in minnesota i can t say whether or not this line has ever been used against kirby there as far as boggs goes i m not sure why you bring him up since he s one of the obvious prototypes for the line i quoted along with ted williams rod carew and many others uh yes and i agree with your assesment of boggs rather specifically however you did say everybody who has ever won a batting title has been accused of selfishness i have not ever anywhere heard this said of puckett pendleton either similarly brett b williams and others how about daryl strawberry and i think the plus or minus refers more to the born again types ie butler and gaetti again you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes on the other hand my argument by is of the because jon says so variety if we have no other data i have to admit i have problems generating lists of non white players who became in famous for their religious or political beliefs while names like butler gaetti dravecky knepper hersheiser et al come rolling out there are others perhaps they are simply not as outspoken except in the case of the born again types i mention mike
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players b career don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	the babe v the pride of the yankees the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history s version of the story i wouldn t put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies eric a w behrens behrens cc swarthmore edu i d walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball pete rose
rec.sport.baseball	re some baseball trivia in article ra binnt gap caltech edu daplurad ugcs caltech edu david plurad writes in article texdude cs bradley edu texdude cs bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu i ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career k s with one team if it s not ryan perhaps steve carlton no way gotta be walter johnson all were with washington carlton spent too long in st louis to collect less than there with the rangers hough was there for a long time i d also guess hough due to his length of tenure though i suspect bobby witt wasn t far behind maybe even jenkins snuck in close in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least a hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak fingers had to have achieved with either mil or with sd so yes i d go with that guess otherwise i was thinking that reardon has a better chance of having with min along with i would think easily reaching with mon don t know about the homers steals dept gotta be willie mays i am fairly sure he had over steals in his career in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too hmmm leary is a really good point i d forgotten about him well if nothing else there are plenty of ex met pitchers in the category of could have lost to all teams koosman leary torrez ryan seaver i guess the best three guesses would be leary ryan and either seaver or koosman thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one s life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes mikef bvc edu writes for the record there are two ways that a reliever can get a save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game close but there s a number also have entered the game with no more than a run lead and pitched at least one inning if a pitcher finishes a game which his team has won does not get the win and satisfies at least one of the three requirements he gets a save rusty russell peltz peltz russell cs yale edu p o box y s new haven ct
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially a laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called a bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield i think what bob is describing here is a game which mad magazine called basebrawl i have no idea what issue but it sure did cover the violence issue paul football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes in article r huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that i played ball this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw now this sounds like a fun topic in a slo pitch softball game we had the first base dugout one of our players hit a shot down the first base line with the bases loaded the only question was fair or foul ball hits ground chalk flies umpire calls foul we give him the standard didn t you see chalk line his response was it hit the foul half of the line we all started laughing mark pede not bad we had a similar situation slowpitch softball bases loaded weakest hitter at the plate he hits a line drive over the third baseman s head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in foul ground almost hitting the fence down that side of the field but the umpire called fair ball i was coaching third yelling at evrybody to move up a base the ump s position it was still fair when it passed third base why the other team didn t immediately protest i ll never know we certainly weren t going to argue about it since every body did manage to advance one base safely there was also the time when a batted ball ricocheted off my runner from second base leg fielded by the ss steps on second to force the runner from first and throw to first in time for what the umpire called a triple play protest removed when we won the game anyway clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game san francisco quakes by the way quakes is the nickname for the padres affiliate in the california league the rancho cucamunga quakes
rec.sport.baseball	rockies name pos ab h b b hr rbi rs sb e avg galarraga b sheaffer c boston of cole cf hayes b bichette rf e young b tatum b murphy of clark lf girardi c castilla ss benavides ss pitchers p g young of totals name l r gs cg ip h r er k bb era w l s aldred l ashby r wayne l neid r parrett r smith r blair r ruffin l henry l reed r holmes r totals
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team wednesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved swallows w kasai l ito central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in c sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes did you see the same game i saw gant most reasonable argued a horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while i don t necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started a dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck was it just me or did it look like hirschbeck pointed to the b umpire before calling that strike i thought that s why gant was asking for the appeal to the st base umpire he thought hirschbeck had gotten checked swing help from the wrong umpire shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch after hirschbeck called for the pitch but before the pitch was thrown cox came onto the field it was obvious that he was trying to get time called before the pitch but no one was watching pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided your listing pretty much agreed with what i saw with the aforementioned addendums perhaps it appeared differently at the ballpark personally i was amazed that gant didn t get ejected but that s why cox did it s called protecting your players and to those people who would have thrown everyone out of the game all i can say is that you d be making baseball history even in the worst baseball brawls usually only the major instigators are ejected not everyone who comes onto the field and i d have to say that those brawls are considerably more threatening to the game than what the braves did fri night anyhow that s my last two cents on the subject barring outrageous postings i will try to keep my eyes open for more incidents involving hirschbeck i think there will be some with other teams as well i hope not eric
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio s no hitter in article r hbsinnavr shelley u washington edu dudgeon opus cheme washington edu writes pb csc albany edu brown philip h writes i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning s paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems a litle cocky to me but he made it work so he s entitled i guess so still that s kind of a stupid move imo he d be singing a different tune if he had booted it and the next guy up had hit a bloop single stranger things have happened hey i used to be a big dave stieb fan and unfortunately there s no such thing as an unearned hit cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article pn ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up n of his n pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time if it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead it would probably also result ina greater number of pickoffs i think it would be a workable rule but it would probably be best to experiment in another league before trying it in the bigs clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history randy johnson june against the tigers charles
rec.sport.baseball	re yanks over a s george speaks in apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that a hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it s mark connor s fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone i saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also and what enraged me more than anything was not that george was speaking up agai and complaining to the media instead of to the proper people it was that the idiot reporter provided george with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble this is a supreme example of how the media can truly control situations the local beat reporters should know better and should stop trying to one up each other with quotes from the boss if they just ignored him he d really simply go away and problems would be avoided what that reporter did was potentially to open up the floodgates again asshole
rec.sport.baseball	re triva question on bosio s no hitter wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes i don t actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for a back end perfect game well there were outs in a row with no hits or walks in between but really he only retired batters in a row the first out of the game was the front end of a double play still counts as a back end perfect game in my book though congrats to chris bosio too bad the brewers couldn t hold on to him jon hamkins hamkins uiuc edu university of illionois
rec.sport.baseball	yankees schedule can someone in this net post a yankee schedule i need this right away thank you
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts velarde etc in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes real long but good post on yankee trades omitted i disagree on one point velarde yes maybe the yanks should have let him develop but he rode the columbus shuttle way too many times to do so probably the fault of george but no matter now his usefulness is done he will not be able to develop into a good player this deep in his career at least i don t think so his fielding is horrendous at rd maybe he d be good at short he can t his the curve at all and i think all his trips from new york to columbus and back have demoralized him to the point that he just doesn t care get rid of him i say the sooner the better for both the yanks and velarde keith keller let s go rangers velarde hasn t been to columbus if i recall for about three years granted he hasn t been a full time player but when he does play i ve always thought he had a good bat he might be demoralized about not playing full time but he hasn t been shuttled around i think he s been in new york ever since he had hits in ab back in or i believe i don t think he is gold glove calibre but he doesn t boot it around either i think if velarde is given a chance he could become extremely productive i don t have any stats to back this up and i don t know if his defense would cost any games but i think he could help and he has this year he has hr already same goes for jim leyrtiz he has a big mouth but he does get the job done when he concentrates i think the situation with leyritz is that he believes he is a potential super star and he gets pissed about not playing i think he might have realized something when the marlins or rockies didn t select him the yanks need to worry about the bullpen right now kamieniecki and wickman militello in the bullpen ouch i m praying that the bp will return to last year s form chris what i m listening to giant wam umd edu anything that guitar god go yankees dann huff plays on
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes rule k states it is interference by a batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire s judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and a runner isn t out just for running out of the baseline he s out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner s head there s no inter ference sorry i still don t buy it you re certainly right that the runner is not out merely for running out of the baseline he must interfere with the play but the argument here is over what constitutes interference you certainly cannot infer from what you ve quoted that the batter runner must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference you haven t posted a definition of interference at all imo this calls for one of the approved ruling s that go in small print in the rulebook something like approved ruling if in the judgement of the umpire the runner by running to the left of the allowed path caused the fielder to make a bad throw blocks the vision of the fielder receiving the throw or otherwise impedes the defensive team s making a play on him the batter runner shall be judeged guilty of interference or approved ruling the runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes contact with a fielder or is hit by the thrown ball in the absence of such an approved ruling i claim that this is a poor rules trivia question since it cannot be authoritatively answered len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs g waugaman nac enet dec com glenn r waugaman writes gary s list of the ten slowest bats in baseball andre dawson what peter gammons andre tremendous bat speed dawson bat speed so great that dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the left field line without counting to before swinging bat speed never before seen from a year old man much less from any red sox player to precede him yes that s him was i not specific enough just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that they have a quick bat dawson s release is slow and he is after all he may swing early and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to the left side all the time but he swings slowly as for me disagreeing with peter gammons whoa that s never happened before next thing you know i ll probably believe dave campbell is the biggest imbecile even to come near a mic and that ray knight has the iq of drained crankcase oil gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	john wetteland derek lilliquist info please hi there i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new i thought he was just letting it heal another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time ryan robin texas rangers in jose canseco for mvp ryan n robin weatherford hall corvallis or robinr prism cs orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco date fri apr gmt from tackey chan tac world std com wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes so anybody know what s up with john franco are the mets just starting him off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work or what the mets are really starting him off slow mike maddax and young can do the job of closing torborg has said that he franco is his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no need he does not want franco to get hurt on his return i have this guy so i know what it is like to see him pitch inns in that lat weeks tac well they just said that franco will probably go on the dl tomorrow they mentioned a career minor leaguer as the warm body who would go along i forget also when answering questions about the rotation coleman sd broadcaster said that hurst is gone in about a month month and a half which is when he should finish re hab later dennis dennis parslow that better be a korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns in article qn tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes the best home run i have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val a couple of years ago he threw a ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky s neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for a new ball he didn t even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot i was at that game behind home plate next to a scout who was manning the radar gun the season was winding down and roger didn t have his best fastball topping out at in contrast to frank tanana who went as low as with one lollipop in the process of striking out phil plantier five times on the night inky s shot would have gone further than any i ve ever seen if it hadn t crashed into the lights not the lightstand as you say over feet high roy hobbs like and bounced back onto the field that had to have been a footer if unobstructed edging out bo jackson s drive off oil can boyd to the top of the centerfield bleacher back wall in for the best i ve seen personally i was sitting under that one glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma g waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	mike greenwell and mo vaughn stat help dear anybody i am in rochester ny where people can look at a rangers penguins playoff game and say no joke i heard it hey whats this oh its not even the ahl its just the nhl i think because of this e get red wings orioles aaa stats and updates but no al or nl stats specifically im looking for red sox stats so far id like all of them but could handle just greenwell and vaughn can anybody please help me wizard ec b uhura cc rochester edu
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr woods ulowell edu poiriera woods ulowell edu writes this chatting about the best player of all time is pointless you can t compare players from different era s of course you can you just have to be careful about what conclusions you draw if you will notice the best pitchers stat wise were in the s and s and the best all around hitters probably came from the s to s huh the s and s were the worst decades for great pitching grove vance dean and not a whole lot else as for the best all around hitters stat wise ruth gehrig foxx greenberg hornsby cobb etc all played before the s stat wise the s were a graveyard for hitters now we have a great number of great pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders also how do you know which ones do you consider great about fielding the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early years of baseball maybe a hitter like sheffield with the ba hr and rbi even though it was probably a fluke year can be compared to a mantle because the pitching sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better the so sheffield also has better shoes more time between pitches you can run the comparison but there are lots of things to take into account same could be said for frank thomas who is said to be the best hitter since ted williams although frank s defense does suck well can we compare them or can t we all i am saying is that you can t compare players from different era s if you want a best player try choosing best players from different era s that why we can compare players to the standard of their era and we can keep in mind era to era differences without throwing up our hands in despair way there is reasonable basis for comparison you haven t shown us what s un reasonable about the mantle sheffield comparison that you yourself did roger
rec.sport.baseball	re speeding up games in article rudyc wcsg g a netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes i feel that talking about speeding up baseball games is like trying to keep signal to noise ratio high on rec sports baseball no matter how much you talk about it or how reasonable your arguments there will always be people who quote an entire article with signatures to make a one line comment reply or woof whether through their stupidity denseness or excitement and overeagerness to bless us with their insight no matter what is said they will always keep doing it same with ballgames no matter how much it might benefit the game for the umpires to enforce the rules and for the players managers coaches to stop wasting our time it just ain t gonna happen rudy i agree
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players drm tesla njit edu writes b career don mattingly lou gehrig ironman steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	cubbies is there a chicago cubs mailing list if so i d like to join any help appreciated
rec.sport.baseball	re time of game in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes the reason i m unhappy with the length of games today is summed up above for an extra minutes game average in the al and an extra minutes average in the nl i m seeing fewer runs score now what i think i am seeing is more pitches more strikeouts over game in the al over game more in the nl more walks game more in yep and the ks don t have to denote a slow game either last night sid fernandez was mowing the giants hitters down ks in innings yet the first innings of the game were quite brisk he also threw pitches leading me to believe it isn t just the number of pitches that determines the length of a game but the behavior between pitches michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re cub fever in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again i m beginning to think they have a chance this year what the heck am i thinking sorry just a moment of incompetence i ll be ok really orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise i hear ya then again we must remember that we are indeed cub fans and that the cubs will eventually blow it after all the cubs are the easiest team in the national league to root for no pressure you know they will lose eventually oh well i suppose we must have faith after all they do look pretty good and they don t even have sandberg back yet cubs in cha
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes i don t understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won t take walks he d rather swing if i m the opposing pitcher why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well when i know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at a low and away curve matt s problem is really more ability than attitude it isn t that he s got it in his mind that he wants to swing away but rather that he s still a total sucker for the curve ball it looked for a while in that he was getting better but it s still his weak point as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there s no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be a self fulfilling prophecy as to whether the giants lineup is optimal who knows batting bonds the team s best hitter fifth does seem to be odd but the and hitters aren t exactly messrs oba so they aren t giving much up there and although clark isn t the overall offensive force that bonds is he seems better suited to the spot assuming of course that he starts hitting one of these days michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i think that everything else being equal it s not too much to ask that if a weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter s box commerical time outs and that sort of thing i m not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done a study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these a s games heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	new yankees mailing list hi all i got tired of waiting for a mailing list so i am going to make one just send me your complete e mail address on your message and i ll send you a confirmation and the yankee mailing list address john go yankees
rec.sport.baseball	re ron gant stalling and hirschbeck in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes but in the past a disputed strike call has been enough reason to step out of the batters box it may not be a good idea it may even irritate the umpire but i ve seen it a lot and i ve seen it tolerated just not this time the key words here are in the past everybody was warned before the season began that the umpires had been instructed to enforce the rule in the interest of speeding up the game when i see this happening to other players i ll post a public apology to mr hirschbeck until then i think this was a case of selective enforcement dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	how to start cardinals mailing list o k it would be a shame for cards fans on the net to go through the championship season without a mailing list to talk on so i would be willing to look at starting one except there s one little problem i don t know the first thing about how to do it or what it requires in terms of resources or time so if some kind soul could e mail me the particulars of getting starting and managing a mail list i d see if it would be feasible for me to start a cards mailing list thanks in advance dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re a rooky question about the era whitty cv hp com joe whitty writes thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there i m german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game thus if a pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip i think there is another formula for era i heard something about it last year im not sure what it is but im gonna give it a stab it allows for a pitcher to pitch more than innings at a time and not benefit cuz it uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched era er outs recorded like i said im not sure this is exactly it but im pretty sure they changed it to something of the sort an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if a pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not a result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game i hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i think that everything else being equal it s not too much to ask that if a weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter s box commercial time outs and that sort of thing i m not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done a study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these a s games oh probably ms nichols has given the average game times and average runs scored for and a very nice piece of information ms nichols who knows she may be listening and not have me in her kill file after all those numbers indicate somewhere in the neighborhood of half a run less being scored per game and the games taking minutes longer something is being done now that wasn t done ten years ago which is extending the games by minutes ms nichols thinks it s more pitches given the increasing specialization of pitchers it wouldn t surprise me if it s not simply more pitches though i don t think it s unreasonable to think that something can be done to get ten of those minutes back then i get a couple more from shortening the warmup time for a relief pitcher after he comes in and a couple more still from enforcing existing rules which have been stated in other posts in this thread and other related ones the problem is who decides whether that time is wasted you don t seem to think it is at all right now i think it is although i have heard one case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups he thinks he needs the difference in mounds between the field and pen but who knows if the rules get changed maybe something i didn t foresee will happen to change my mind but you can bet a lot of minds would fail to foresee the same thing or else nothing will be changed rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics good question it s my impression not backed by evidence that general south of the borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring firing effect i was talking about back in the s there were some attempts to hire black cuban ballplayers they were rejected by the commissioner and others and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading i really really doubt that you meant to say this well what did i mean to say aside from some short lived exceptions such as japanese internment in ww ii only blacks were affected by laws regarding slavery jim crow miscegenation military service etc if my claim of exclusivity is not airtight that is if you can come up with this or that exception fine have a cookie but compared to this list no other racial group put up with a legal onslaught worth discussing at length roger
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield s peak years anyway probably around that s the trouble what peak years he wavers between excellent and very good with no real bell shaped pattern in there was a fine year and were merely really good with the yankees i think was the best that was the one with the ba of course wasn t bad either he s been in the bigs since with a one year intermission for surgery though he doesn t have the mix of skills that pete rose did he s like pete rose in one way he s not a natural hitter winfield s swing used to be the ugliest thing in new york and that includes the gulf western building but his sheer athletic prowess and physical size made up for a lot fascinating player to watch even now not obviously great in any one way but able to do quite a few things in surprising ways and at surprising levels roger
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes this week s play it took three days to get to us but i ll try anyway as i naturally haven t seen the answer with runners at first and second and one out the batter hits an easy pop fly to the third baseman a the umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman lets the ball drop the runner at second heads for third and the third baseman flips the ball to the short stop who tags the bag before the runner safe the correct call is infield fly batter out if fair runners may advance at own risk gotta tag up if caught etc it is not a force and the pop was not caught so regardless of whether the ss tags b or b it wasn t clear above he hasn t got the runner out b the umpires don t declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman allows the ball to drop and throws to the short stop who tags the runner from second while the runner is between second and third out see rule l approved ruling below in this case the umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule doesn t apply sounds like a bad call here but that s not the point the batter is not out so a force situation is created therefore the runner is out unless by rule l the ball is dead and the batter is safe then i guess the runners would advance unmolested i can t really tell from l that the ball is dead in this situation what s the call in a and b pertinent rules definition of infield fly when an infield fly is called runners may advance at their own risk if on an infield fly rule the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball the ball remains in play despite the provisions of rule l the infield fly rule takes precedence l a batter is out when an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive with first first and second first and thrid or first second and third base occupied before two are out the ball is dead and the runners or runners shall return to their original base or bases approved ruling in this situation the batter is not out if the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched to the ground except when the infield fly rule applies jim dean internet jimdean bnr ca national capital baseball league mild mannered computer scientist phone president pitcher my knuckler bell northern research ottawa ont booth not too legit to hit phone fax phone
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to i m talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin a lot less and counts and a quicker game
rec.sport.baseball	advertised commercialized to death during the local rockies broadcast the other day don baylor went out to bring in a relief pitcher and a graphic came up on the screen that it was the so and so sponsored pitching change i saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored at other times during the game rockies announcer duane kuiper was setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation that charlie jones would jump in and discuss the situation but what does charlie do he read s a beer advertisement and leaves duane hanging duane s strategy proved prophetic these examples happen over and over on radio and t v braodcasts making them sometimes very boring to listen to i guess it s just a matter of time before a player sells his name to budweiser nike etc i don t think it will be long until we hear nike budweiser drills it deep to left field chevrolet goes back back it s gone the apple macintoshes formerly the boston red sox are the world champions back to work anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co p s rockies fans have the brooms ready for the marlins this weekend
rec.sport.baseball	apology for article it s me again i apologize to everyone out there whom i might have pissed off with that one article about don mattingly when i said he was the best first basemam in history i meant fielding first baseman which he is no one can argue with that
rec.sport.baseball	re strike zone width was re jose canseco s swing in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes huckabay s counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited well it s just studying tape frame by frame that s all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone i d sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did i just dream it these pictures would be a feedback device for the umpires so that they can see just how terrible or not there calls were tapes could be sent to the league as evidence of bad ball strike umpiring tapes are available as evidence of bad out safe calls on the bases i guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series and in fact all year have been pretty much consistently correct remember the rule says it s a strike if any part of the ball passes through the strike zone i would certainly agree that high strikes are not called who could argue this point but all in all i think in and out is called pretty well rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re hey red sox fans paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes woof gawd how i hate myself for doing this but sometimes you get those urges that are too powerful to overcome to quote sportscenter bosiooo ooo ooo hey bosio threw a no no what the hell a red sox fan going to say to that heck remeber matt young last year ick tac
rec.sport.baseball	stats question i am just wondering whether the official mlb stats includes intentional walks in the bb category or not wenhsiang lin
rec.sport.baseball	tickets for sale my brother purchased baseball tickets for texas rangers vs toronto bluejays in july but he was unable to get vacation days to get there is anyone interested in purchasing the following arlington stadium arlington texas texas rangers vs toronto bluejays thursday july friday july tickets section helmet night each tickets section each if you want them all the total is please contact me over e mail or directly to my brother randy hollister rosemont lane streator il my brother would be eternally grateful for someone to purchase these tickets thank you j broocks knossos u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the babe v the pride of the yankees behrens cc swarthmore edu eric behrens writes the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history s version of the story i wouldn t put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies good question i kind of wondered about this myself just one thought i had on it the babe himself was in pride of the yankees which made me think a that version may be closer to the truth and b the babe must have been a pretty good gut to be in the movie even though some of the scenes didn t make him look completely flattering chris roney e mail chris roney sfu ca
rec.sport.baseball	re highlights in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes might i suggest that a more appropriate forum for game by game highlights of a particular team is a mailing list rather than rec sport baseball i looked up might to see why you selected that particular word and discovered the line to express permission liberty probability possibility it also said something about being a polite alternative to may the presence of probability possibility can certainly be used to partially explain your word selection so i d say to all extents and purposes yes you might in fact you did not that you were asking me specifically the next question is why would a mailing list be more appropriate we don t all get mailing lists we surely don t all get mailing lists about the teams about which we are most enthused so it seems to me r s baseball is an appropriate place to look for information about teams one doesn t necessarily follow day to day this is not intended as flamage but rather is an attempted answer as you posed your post as a question it bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba a i b anyone for lemur sooshi t that s sushi learn to spell you pathetic winker
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something for those of you who complain about don cherry and wonder why he is popular the reply is dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale is always promoting this kid from this high school or that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters in relation to our greatest passion which is hockey canadians are very similar to americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans it is football basketball baseball and bowling gerald i d like to add that i think canadian hockey fans like don because his kind of hockey the hockey he promotes in his tv appearances is the kind that they think used to get played in the old team nhl so there s a kind of nostagia for the old days before expansion the soviet series gretzky and even bobby orr when guys weren t afraid to take a hit nobody floated and defensemen played defence who cares that that probably never really existed the myth is still around in canada and all the european in fluence on the game has diminished it in some people s eyes personally i d like to add before i get flamed i love the fast paced european game and think don cherry is a bit of an idiot i have to say that i missed him when i was living in the states though he is entertaining even if you end up throwing your popcorn at the screen when he s on i stand by all the misstatements that i ve made vice president dan quayle to sam donaldson me too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article c u cd news udel edu tmavor earthview cms udel edu writes various justifiable rantings on espn coverage by several deleted the only way to change espn s thinking if it is even possible is to complain to them directly anyone know there telephone in bristol ct heh try the rec autos sport faq they are always calling espn to complain i m sure you could find the number for abc there too as many west coast viewers were compaining about how something as boring as hockey cut into the long beach gp i do find it hard to believe that espn doesn t think viewers will simply change the channel from a boring game i know i did and then when they didn t show the nyi wash overtime s i was livid if i wanted to watch baseball i could have turned on the phillies padres extra inning game instead i went to bed angry i boycotted espn s morning sportscenter today i was still so incensed were you and several of the other people here it seems asleep the day contracts were explained aspn has a piece of paper saying it must show that baseball game if it happens many businesses payedd money to have their commercials run during a baseball game this is a business not your own personal video servant my wife says i shouldn t go to bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr maybe you should put that anger into something positive for example i saw ads for the new dodge both on the espn and kbl broadcasts why not write to dodge saying that thanks to the ads run during the stanley cup playoffs you will now concider their products in the future they love to hear stuff like that and in the future will be more willing to buy commercial time for hockey games giving espn and other networks more incentive to carry games just one example come on people as great as we think it is hockey does not leapfrog the big three overight tim mavor i am known by many names college of marine studies some call me tim univ of delaware newark de you know much that is hidden o tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns mark d whitten nfet cmuvm csv cmich edu writes if i were pat burns i d throw in the towel the wings dominated every aspect of the game trying to mix up the lines is a dead end as the rangers found out in last year s playoffs it s too late to try line juggling at this point gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	sabres are playing well but i have to agree boston is a good team but streaky they put together a great streak to capture first place in the adams but for what they have lost the home ice advantage for at least the first round and might not make it out of it i would love to see the sabres win the first round even though i bet on the bruins a pack oh well perhaps i should start betting against the sabres more often ciao jason bittle bittle canisius edu a k a pillsbury dough boy quote i compute therefore i b m
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated i believe that phil esposito was the first to wear when he played with the rangers in the s this was the season that they put the rangers crest and modern style numbers on the jerseys instead of the new york or rangers block letters and two colour numbers he took because the rangers already had a hockey night in canada made a big thing out of it saying it was the biggest uniform style change in a long time this was before pittsburgh and vancouver changed their colours dwarf w jim jordan i don t mean to tell you how to live dwarf x gate bnr ca internet your life that s what the tv s for i work for bnr i do not speak for it but if i didn t believe in jesus i d be going to hell peter heath
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft san jose will then get kariya ya know that kind of funny cause i ve seen kariya on campus with a sharks hat on pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	re german audience is lunatic in article apr ousrvr oulu fi golf phoenix oulu fi jouko kylmaoja wrote i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do i can understand your anger about the german audience i mean it was the finnish team they played and they were taking advantage of the ridiculous penalties the canadien ref called in the last period the germans got a match penalty and a minutes misconduct for practically nothing and seconds after that the german goalie got two minutes for delay of game for a shot that was deflected and went into the crowd the resulting skating advantage lead to the deciding goal at a point when the germans were starting to come up strong i am also sick of the nationalism that is going on in german sports events if you watch for example a tennis davis cup match the players are often not able to play for minutes because the crowd is so obnoxious but i have to admit that this kind of nationalism is as strong or even stronger in most other countries you should go to the us and watch the way they present the olympics on television or the soccer crowds in england or the finnish spectators at nordic skiing events i mean it makes me sick to see all this nationalism all over the world and i would rather see the best team player win and get cheared at i do not mind if my favorite team looses to somebody that is better or plays more attractive and i have to admit that in most sports the german national site is not my favorite team to watch the german soccer team is boring to watch for example but reading the above posting i think that you are on the same level as these crowds you are criticizing it is easy to talk of nearly all germans as nazis and nationalists thats the kind of propaganda that all ultraconservative people use against germany it is true that there is a great danger of re arising nationalism in germany but from my experience most of the people at least of the people that i know also regard this as a big threat and are trying to demonstrate this attitude now why can t we just look at people as human beeings and not try to put them into drawers corresponding to their nationality eg all russians are communists all americans are capitalists all germans are nazis all fins are hanging around beeing drunk on ferries in my opinion your comment shows the narrowness of your mind and that you don t seem to be different from the nazis you are talking about thomas there s no time to hate barely time to wait jerry garcia robert hunter
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours actually i was angry when they went away from the pens game being a pens fan in central virginia is kinda tough i only get to see them on espn and when they play the caps cause we re close enough to dc to get all the caps games so when espn switched to the caps aaaggghhh matt
rec.sport.hockey	re flyers with without eric in article apr btree uucp terry btree uucp terry whalen writes path netnews upenn edu newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc news se ervice uci edu network ucsd edu btree terry from terry btree uucp terry whalen newsgroups rec sport hockey subject re flyers with without eric message id apr btree uucp date apr gmt references apr ns cc lehigh edu organization brooktree corporation lines in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ksc ns cc lehigh edu kevin s carragher writes the philadelphia inquirer posted the following stats with lindros goals against average goals scored average without lindros goals against average goals scored average i think the difference is obvious he s a dominant player skip yes he is he will become a major franchise player and bring the flyers to the cup in or years will they name lindros captain next year or recchi geoff
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars first off anyone accepted into the western business school is not a dork second just because one person out of a country of million doesn t think before he she posts an article does not mean that he she is embarrasing canada this network is for expressing what you feel are your thoughts just because someone doesn t agree with you this does not give you the right to call them assholes anyways the north stars are shit c mon leafs whoa there lighten up andrew when i was referring to you dorks at the western business school i was specifically referring to those assholes writing obnoxious comments insulting the state and people of minnesota for no apparent reason being canadian and one who has friends who attended uwo i personally don t want to be associated with the idiots who wrote those messages one more thing andrew until this season the leafs have sucked pretty badly over the last umpteen years have they won the cup during our lifetime so the north stars haven t been the only shit team in the norris kea
rec.sport.hockey	selfish hockey fans on tuesday when it was raining in chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now it seems as though some fans are ticked off that the ny wash ot was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead of hockey fans in the u s the baseball game was scheduled to air and advertisers money was paid so they can t skip the baseball game why don t you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	habs late quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although he did blow nd goal canadians showed up in third but nords were playing dump pull back most of the time hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost in first period when nords scored could have had plus another in nd canadians are dead meat they may take one or but this one is over tee it up jacques next time you might rest players forget about st place welcome to the adams division dennis
rec.sport.hockey	re upcoming tv schedule in article r af qve hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes hey guess what s coming to espn for a change a playoff which doesn t involve the pens not that there is anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps at ny isles at tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement only if you are in the eastern time zone pacific will get the kings vs calgary espn named its broadcast team on tuesday it paired tom mees play by play with john davidson analyst ppv mark nancy j spera imt division if i didn t know for a fact that p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis was working in a donut shop e p o box la habra ca o in beaver falls i d swear he was n tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin s
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes forwards richard zemlicka in the season playing for ehc freiburg germany benny i i i i benny reif email reif sun ruf uni freiburg de i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i disclaimer this text reflects my opinion i i i i i
rec.sport.hockey	re red wings goespel f hh unb ca patrick walker writes detroit s going to beat toronto in or less granted gilmour should get the hart trophy not lemieux just look at what gilmour did for toronto when you think of toronto who comes to mind gilmour andreychuk potvin ah did i mentio n gilmour when you think of the nhl who comes to mind gilmour gretzky mario ah did i mention mario if you said gretzky you haven t really been following along have you if you said gilmour you are a true maynard i don t even think the selection of the hart deserves serious discussion on this group it is a no brainer dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca steven kipling writes quoting cire y trehguad to all cyt michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated kelly kisio was the captain of the rangers when he left for san jose ali ali procrastination lemer but not a real green conjunction junction columbia university nyc dress that s cruel what s your function phoenix ctr columbia edu barenaked ladies schoolhouse rock be kind to animals hug a hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	re habs late in article apr vm mcgill ca ccdb ccdb musica mcgill ca writes quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although he did blow nd goal canadians showed up in third but nords were playing dump pull back most of the time do you notice that nobody on the team is willing to take charge a dominant defenceman would be nice too bad schneider got hurt he reminds me of chris chelios sometimes speaking of chelios i wonder if serge savard feels like a moron for making that trade i also wish we still had corson rob ramage on the ice is less useful than a gatorade bottle on the bench vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation apparently i have no idea why demers is playing denis savard on the checking line with carbonneau savard is skating well and is one of the only dangerous canadiens in quebec s zone with the puck too bad nobody is in front most of the time do you also notice that in the defensive zone not a single nordique gets knocked down it s disgusting we also have lebeau getting pasted at centre ice by wolaninn with no reply from the team except to yell for a penalty dammit denis savard threw the best only montreal hit of the night when he knocked sundin off balance when denis savard is your team s enforcer there s big trouble someplace hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost in first period when nords scored could have had plus another in nd aside from that second goal roy did stand on his head the third period at least provided something to look forward to habs won the period imo and i guess somebody finally came along to smack them a couple of times in the second intermission to remind them that a game had started at hopefully they play that way at home roy made the saves we ll ignore that second goal so now it s up to the team dchhabra stpl ists ca p s to all those grant fuhr doubters buffalo boston nuff said and did somebody say dale hunter was a playoff choker i d rethink that position
rec.sport.hockey	bruins come on boston where the hell are you seven wins in a row and what choke i d much rather see the bruins in the wales conference finals vs pitt than buffalo or quebec if only because it would be more interesting not that buffalo or quebec can t put up a good fight but i d much more enjoy a pasteing of the bruins than the devils you have to feel for terrerri sp ah well maybe the devils will pull it out or maybe the pens will lose in the second round but if not i hope the bruins are there to meet them
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight in boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight in boston looks like boston can hang this season up because buffalo s home record is awesome this is great buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year i m glad grant fuhr will never be as over confident after two wins as you are it takes four wins to defeat an opponent each tougher to obtain than the previous one buffalo is off to a good start fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team gerald awesome home record or not you need to remember the th game last year at the aud i d like to see some playoff games since i m stuck in buffalo at ub but i think boston isn t giving up so easy mr bungle
rec.sport.hockey	whl playoff results monday april kamloops spokane kamloops wins western final matchup kamloops portland tuesday april no games necessary wednesday april no games necessary thursday april no games scheduled friday april regina swift current series kamloops portland series saturday april kamloops portland series sunday april swift current regina series whl playoff scoring leaders april player gp g a pts jamie black tacoma andy schneider swift current valeri bure spokane allan egeland tacoma dean mcammond swift current jason krywulak swift current cam danyluk medicine hat todd holt swift current tyler wright swift current mike mathers kamloops jeff friesen regina rick girard swift current whl playoff leading goaltenders april minimum minutes player mp ga so gaa scott langkow portland milan hnilicka swift current trevor robins brandon steve passmore kamloops mark dawkins red deer randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season individual goalie stats i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the individual goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified these stats are available by mail every weekday and sometimes on weekends if i m in town and i can get late game results just send me a note if you would like to receive these stats by mail if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player was byron dafoe har corrie d alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi ed belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean nj chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk tb wendell young tb jc bergeron nj craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford la robb stauber la kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin la rick knickle tb pat jablonski sj arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike o neill sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks la david goverde tb david littman randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season team goalie stats i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the team goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player chi ed belfour chi jim waite chi tor daren puppa tor felix potvin tor grant fuhr tor rick wamsley tor bos mike bales bos john blue bos andy moog bos reggie lemelin bos pit tom barrasso pit ken wregget pit stl curtis joseph stl guy hebert stl van kay whitmore van kirk mclean van det vincent riendeau det tim cheveldae det mtl frederick chabot mtl patrick roy mtl andre racicot mtl cal jeff reese cal mike vernon cal andrei trefilov cal was byron dafoe was rick tabaracci was don beaupre was jim hrivnak was olaf kolzig was min jon casey min darcy wakaluk min buf dominik hasek buf grant fuhr buf daren puppa buf tom draper buf nyi glenn healy nyi mark fitzpatrick nyi danny lorenz nyi que stephane fiset que ron hextall que jacques cloutier que nj chris terreri nj craig billington nj nyr john vanbiesbrouck nyr corey hirsch nyr mike richter nyr phi tommy soderstrom phi dominic roussel phi stephane beauregard phi win bob essensa win jim hrivnak win rick tabaracci win mike o neill win tb wendell young tb jc bergeron tb pat jablonski tb david littman tb edm bill ranford edm ron tugnutt edm la robb stauber la kelly hrudey la rick knickle la david goverde la har corrie d alessio har mike lenarduzzi har mario gosselin har sean burke har frank pietrangelo har ott daniel berthiaume ott peter sidorkiewicz ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks ott sj arturs irbe sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward sj randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info i think that the name grapes came because as coach for the bruins or in the minors he used to chew on grapes to keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause he liked labatts beer anyone know about that
rec.sport.hockey	re grant fuhr leads sabres in apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i applauded the sabres for making the deal to get fuhr specifically because i thought it would help them win at least one playoff series however i don t think the leafs can be faulted either there is nothing to say that felix won t be winning playoff series by himself in years to come i agree with joseph felix potvin is a great goalie besides i thought that the leafs could only protect goalie in the up coming expansion draft if so then it s better to get rid of one good goalie and get a good forward in return
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations in messge on mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don t play i would like to tune in other games does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones i can remember offhand kdka am pittsburgh penguins wabc am new jersey devils wbbm am chicago blackhawks wjm am detroit redwings kmox am st louis blues are the flyers on that s all i can think of ted benjamin go cards go cavs tedb tyrell msfc nasa gov go blues go vols go browns a line sig can cramp one s art
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx pierre turgeon formely of the sabres and now of the isles wears at least he did in buffalo tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through the net not through e mail i don t need rl s in my e mail but wasn t boston down vs buffalo last year boston lost and at home and won and in buffalo whoever wins game will advance simple as that robbie po pgh penguins we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s all time record you see now wait for the penguins devils season win streak possibility don t you see a penguins lead playoff win streak strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	pwter forsberg can some on e give me some stats on forsrg in the world championships if sao mail to ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres in article r pc sa msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres two words grant fuhr tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info that was clint malarchuk that was a very dangerous accident he could he died right there on the ice however he has played since but i don t know where he is now i think he is still playing but i m not positive he was a sabre at the time i don t know who skated into him though has this ever happened before in a hockey game i remember a couple of seasons before the malarchuk incident borje salming of toronto fell down in the crease and someone skated into his face that took a lot of stiches to fix thanks carol go pens liam go toronto they d better start going soon
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit just a side note squid octopi made their way to the ice in buffalo i still don t understand why buffalo but maybe it s lucky btw they shovel them up from the ice here using the shovel used to scoop up the snow the zamboni leaves as it leaves the ice although blue did give some technical directions on its removal motioning with his stick valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article ltdi pinn km appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through no fuhr s rings out sparkle errey s and doesn t bob have rings regardless they d have to sparkle from the pressbox errey s been out a couple games with a hip injury valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	stats does anyone have the player stats for games played up until april mauro
rec.sport.hockey	espn i don t know if anyone has posted a message like this yet but i m getting really sick of espn showing the last minute of a hockey game in which the score was just tied and then cutting out and saying sorry we can t show you this we have to show baseball tonight not even a game a friggin highlight show gee sure would have been nice to see the isles caps in overtime i live in pittsburgh yes i m a pens fan where hockey gets a lot of coverage i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in texas must feel
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs crushed again blues win flames back in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes the blues led by the best goalie in the nhl this season curtis joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did in clutch n grab shoot the puck out it s incredibly boring to watch but if it works finally a non blues fan agrees that joseph is a great goalie i think he should win the vezina this year or at least share it with barrasso who also has been shadowed by mario s amazing performance i too think that joseph has had a great year and should be considered for the vezina i think barrasso and joseph should be the two strongest candidates this year i don t believe all of the hype that roy belfour and now potvin receive for their goaltending i do think that they are great in the nets but i would rather have curtis tommy or fuhr in the nets during this years playoffs the big name tenders always seem to have a strong defense in front of them and the goaltenders get the most credit i would rather face shots a game than have to rely on joseph saving but if the goalie is going to face shots i would rather have joseph or barrasso facing them jay ps go quebec and i know that mclean and several others should be mentioned as candidates for this years vezina but i am partial to joseph and barrasso this season john w huber jr aka jay penguins stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates nl east champions sei mastercraft the only boat for skiing
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell us about it geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game it was clint malarchuk s neck cut by uwe krupp s skate i know it happened in buffalo but i can t tell you against whom krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder he s been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade what do i win patrick ferrel v qldp ubvms cc buffalo edu i always said there was state university of new york at buffalo something fundamentally wrong with the universe aka jay walker wwivnet arthur dent
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins notes it was unlikely improbable for the bruins it was the stuff of nightmares for the sabres it was a taste of heaven for the first time since the sabres have won the first three games of a series last time was a three games to none victory in a best of five against the canadiens it takes a little more work this time the sabres seem ready to put in the extra work on the heels of a shutout one that took away boston s home ice advantage the sabres came back with a four to three overtime win it wasn t easy it wasn t always pretty it still worked john blue got the nod for boston supplanting andy moog as starting goaltender moog was pulled midway through game on tuesday buffalo started with a goal by mogilny his fourth of the playoffs on the powerplay with boston s don sweeney and gord roberts in the box lafontaine and hawerchuk had the assists goal number two was khmylev s first of the playoffs a pretty goal scored when the sabres stole the puck and passed to an open and waiting khmylev smehlik and hannan assisted determined not to be shut out boston tallied on a shot by ray bourque on the powerplay with colin patterson and bob sweeney both in the box period two was scoreless a split of penalties between the two clubs the third saw boston s smolinski get his first courtesy of oates buffalo resecured the lead two minutes later from former bruin bob sweeney khmylev and carney neely tied the game of the way through the third sending it into overtime last year overtime meant a bruin win last night it spelled sweet revenge as buffalo scored with ray bourque in the penalty box on a tip in by khmylev hawerchuk and lafontaine a minute into overtime both teams finished with shots power play conversions boston buffalo referee rob shick comments shick pocketed the whistle in the third allowing a lot of clutching and grabbing buffalo s penalty killing unit was fantastic again mogilny was checking granted he missed once and instead flung his body into the boards but checking like this is a novel idea to mogilny the crowd was unbelievable i don t think i ve ever heard a crowd that loud in the aud for a sabres game remember i was only five when they played for the cup i don t remember it and no one took me to the games doug bodger in a postgame interview noted that he tried to say something to hawerchuk but the crowd was too loud even though he was shouting it didn t seem to matter as most of the sabres and even muckler said it was great yuri khmylev didn t seem to realize that he was the game s third star and didn t skate out when his name was called sweeney and fuhr each were out before yuri made his appearance sans jersey when asked in an interview later whether he knew how big a goal that was he responed yes ok it was through an interpreter and he said more than that even more than the interpreter said but i digress the interviewer seemed to think just because he doesn t speak english he must not understand playoffs uh huh valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re montreal versue quebec in article r p kj msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu the replay clearly showed that the winning goal for montreal went off the skate of the quebec defenceman who was checking kirk muller in front of hextall
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired gak wrs com richard stueven writes on the other hand i m hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again we have the benefit of hindsight well the jettison for youth fast strategy was his also in hindsight it didn t work all that well but i think it was more because it left the sharks on a tightrope without a net not that it was inherently flawed it was the injuries that caused us to fall let s say that in the view of the sharks upper management the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra from all indications it wasn t the major factor but the last straw there were personality conflicts among shark management and disagreements over how personnel were going to be handled not just who was being traded vs kept but who was being sent to kc what ferriera did if rumors are right was not always what the folks behind the bench wanted or needed i m inclined to take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him he s obviously the luckiest man in hockey i think if they d kept ferriera they would have lost some of their other management staff depending on which sources you trust we might have lost grillo and lombardi and murdoch over the summer frankly i want to keep those three we may well ahve also lost kingston which of course is now a moot point the sharks have been building an organizational staff that is highly consensual and cooperative ferriera wanted to run things his way there were conflicts ferriera lost that says nothing about his skills or accomplishments at that level a lot is personality and politics i think he did some good things for the sharks but that he never fit in as a shark person i hope he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams down in anaheim too because it ll be good for hockey but i want the ducks to be doormats for a couple of years so the sharks succeeed first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs v s wings i agree rob shick sucks big time he did the same thing last night s game between boston buffalo
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin his stick nothing wrong with what felix did the only problem was that he didn t dino hard enough next time felix aim for the ankles go leafs
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres quoting bill gregory to all bg hey i saw that game i thought the sabres looked better that you bg described it s boston that looked weak and unsure of themselves even bg if big if they bruins win the third game what s that going to bg prove they be lucky well now the sabres are up in games and its to bad that boston isn t putting up more of a fight as that could have been the best series of the playoffs i think boston will come out smoking in the next two games and that buffalo will end the series in game six back in buffalo and say how about those islanders they are up on the capitals and will probably win the series only to be clobbered by the penguins who should eliminate the devils in the next game i cannot see i m sad to say anyone beating the penguins this year again and they will take cup i m afraid well talk to ya later steve to find out a girl s faults praise her to her girl friends blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year grant fuhr has done this to a lot better coaches than brian sutter gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes manon rheaume was on with letterman in sept her english was so terrible that letterman took cheap shots at her although the shots were funny they were uncalled for well on the contrary i thought dave was rather taken with her and her accent h ockey is my passion gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re wjr in boston john girash writes for all those red wings fans in boston i thought i d letcha know that being desperate for news on the game i tried to get wjr am on my walkman and succeeded it was at night about pm reception got better as it got you can get wjr a long way away the problem is that because of those well known and beloved contractual obligations wjr will be doing tiger baseball instead of the wings playoff games for probably half the games the wings could play for this series i know tonight s game and i believe games and if necessay will be bumped ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	sabre fans yes yes i can see it now all those sabre fans finally taking their sabre sweaters out of the moth balls and proudly wearing them after years of playoff frustration and being up games to nil i guess it is a pretty good bet but there has not been a team that has come back from an deficit since could this be the year don t throw out the moth balls yet roy
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts i wrote i feel the jury is still out on tim cheveldae as a playoff goalie he was average in his first playoffs last year he had a horrible start but played great the last ten games after he was benched his gaa even with the horrible start was last year this year i think he s going to play very well he has to if detroit is going to win the cup he wasn t sharp in game but he didn t have to be i thought he looked pretty good yesterday charles hubbert writes great write up of the wings toronto series thus far i agree with just about everything that you said but chevy shouldn t have let the shot from the right point in first goal mikorov i think other than that the wings are looking good and chevy is holding his own not great but maybe chevy has let in or soft goals so far but they all didn t matter however his recent history has been inconsistant play but comes up big when it counts the score was i think when the goal you mentioned was scored in the third period when it looked like toronto was coming back chevy was exceptional i can see him as a barraso style playoff goalie inconsistant when there s nothing on the line but comes up big when really needed i guess we ll both find out ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots in article of rec sport hockey sclark epas utoronto ca susan clark asks hi guys i m looking to answe a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv i e letterman carson leno arsenio etc i e shows of a national nature include canadian equivalents if you can think of any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others i am not so sure about the celebrated players of the game but tod hartje who played for harvard in college and then went on to play in the ahl initially for moncton and currently for providence thanks to daryl turner for the update appeared on david letterman s show about two years ago now tod has the distinction of being the first american born player to go and play in the former soviet union this was arranged by jets gm mike smith while tod was playing in moncton at about the time all those european players were coming over to north america to play in the nhl tod spent a year playing in russia and played with or against some of the russian players who have just entered the nhl in the last two years he wrote a book on his experiences called behind the red line check it out and appeared on the letterman show to talk about them mike note i hope i have my facts straight it has been a year since i read tod s book i wanted to dig the book out to double check but realized i lent it to a friend and he hasn t returned the book yet just wait til i get a hold of him
rec.sport.hockey	re montreal versue quebec in article r p kj msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini wrote did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series the overhead replay pretty clearly showed that it was the quebec defender who deflected the puck the re play officials did not take nearly as much time to make this call as they did for the first non goal so it seemed pretty non controversial i agree that it was a great game good to see roy and damphousse back into form hopefully the sign of good things to come paul valin tel bell northern research ltd email pavalin bnr ca p o box station c ottawa ontario canada k y h only my opinions
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit during the first three games of the pens devils series i have been impressed time and time again by the pure talent of the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun to watch but one element of this team which goes unnoticed seems to be scotty bowman despite brooks lunatic comments and despite the devils line changing adantage in last night s game bowman has been able to keep his cool and keep the devils in the dark granted the hell dwellers had the pens bottled up for a while last night but bowman was eventually able to configure his line up to get the job done his ability to throw out new looks and strategies at a moments notice is incredible bowman seems to have a terrific ability of reading his players on an individual basis last night for instance he realized that the speed of jagr straka and maceachern was throwing the devils off balance as a result straka received many more shifts than average jagr played almost the entire game he was always on the puck and maceachern scored a goal while complementing jagr many times throughout the night his ability to commit to one player in crucial situations is commendable especially when a coach of such a talented team might simply rely on the overall talent to dominate and to bring about success while no one can replace the genius and optimism of badger bob johnson bowman in his own way has made himself a permanent though not clearly seen mark in pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	where s roger i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives i stand by all the misstatements that i ve made vice president dan quayle to sam donaldson me too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor la tied was que leads det leads cal quebec nordiques leads series montreal canadiens st period que sundin gusarov nd period mon muller damphousse bellows pp rd period none overtime mon damphousse bellows desjardins pp powerplay opportunities nordiques of canadiens of shots on goal nordiques canadiens quebec nordiques hextall shots saves montreal canadiens roy shots saves att pittsburgh penguins leads series new jersey devils st period njd guerin pit mceachern straka nd period njd holik s stevens rd period pit m lemieux murphy ramsey pit taglianetti loney tippett pit murphy francis tocchet pp njd semak zelepukin powerplay opportunities penguins of devils of shots on goal penguins devils pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves new jersey devils billington shots saves att boston bruins buffalo sabres leads series st period buf mogilny lafontaine hawerchuk pp buf khmylev smehlik hannan bos bourque oates donato pp nd period none rd period bos smolinski oates buf b sweeney khmylev carney bos neely oates shaw overtime buf khmylev hawerchuk lafontaine pp powerplay opportunities bruins of sabres of shots on goal bruins sabres boston bruins blue shots saves buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves att washington capitals new york islanders leads series st period nyi thomas was burridge may cavallini nd period was carpenter ridley bondra rd period was elynuik carpenter ridley nyi thomas turgeon king nyi turgeon thomas hogue overtime nyi ferraro hogue flatley powerplay opportunities capitals of islanders of shots on goal capitals islanders washington capitals tabaracci shots saves new york islanders healy shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article ps sscl uwo ca ps sscl uwo ca writes dino getting shots in front of the net he should expect it this is playoff hockey where anything goes you lose one game in the regular season and it s not so bad you lose a game in the playoffs and it s a difficult thing to overcome i ve watched hockey and played it too for a number of years and i haven t seen one post season game where the forward in front of the net has not finished without any bruises on the back of his leg the leafs are not doing a good job in clearing the net and potvin has been forced to take matters into his own hands i remember when cicarelli used to play for the london knights ohl he always was a nuisance in front of the net and the goalies took exception to this he also complained in this morning s paper about what happened last night but to me it s a lot of bellyaching his team is up and he complains about being whacked i wonder what would happen if he tried to do the same thing in front of billy smith or a younger ron hextall seems dino would need two artifical legs dino should take it as part of the game and thank his lucky stars that he s in the playoffs and has a good chance to go the finals well i agree that if you re going to stand in front of the net that you should expect to get hit and hacked at in general you should expect to finish the game with some bruises however there is a fine line between hacking at a guy causing some pain and discomfort and blatantly attempting to injure another player felix potvin imo crossed that line on wednesday that two hander on ciccarelli was way out of line i lost a lot of respect for potvin because of that it showed an immaturity he did not slash at ciccarelli to simply try to remove him from the slot area a legal position for dino to be in instead he slashed in an attempt to injure it was out of shear frustration as a leaf supporter just a supporter i m not a leaf fan really i was very disappointed you re right in mentioning billy smith and ron hextall at least in his philly days they both crossed that same line at times and for that reason many fans and players disliked them that s why their names always comes up as examples when we talk about these issues let s hope that felix doesn t do that again i d hate to see anyone even dino although i admit i don t like him very much get seriously hurt from such careless but intentional use of the stick gary
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article c y t bqn acsu buffalo edu v qldp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu a real kneebiter writes in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game it was clint malarchuk s neck cut by uwe krupp s skate i know it happened in buffalo but i can t tell you against whom krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net it was not krupp s skate krupp was defending against steve tuttle of the blues they both sort of tripped and fell toward malarchuk and tuttle s skate came perilously close to cutting but actually just missed the jugular malarchuk immediately fell to the ice hands at his neck blood on the ice malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder he s been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley he d been suffering from it for over a decade he just wasn t diagnosed for it until he didn t sleep for ten days and decided to have some alcohol to help him sleep unfortunately he d just been put on ulcer medicine a few days earlier it s amazing he lasted as long as he did ocd sufferers stop distinguishing the line between reality and imagination or fail to accept that something they ve checked is ok now for example an ocd sufferrer can wash his hands over and over and still think they re dirty he might check the oven ten times to be sure it s turned off he might see a movie about something and automatically assume the situation is the same for his own life malarchuk has dramatically decreased the medicine he takes but still needs it he went off it this past winter and had a bad ocd episode and i think was in the hospital for a couple days he felt it slowed his reflexes so he tried to go without in any event he is alive and well and living in san diego while playing with the gulls ihl krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade and tuttle is no longer with the blues but i don t know where he is possibly in the ihl but you d best ask a blues fan valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens that would be clint malarchuck it was speculated at the time that the injury was so serious that had he been playing at the other end of the rink at the time he was playing in the same end as the ambulence is parked he never would have survived ditto if he were playing anything other than a league with an ambulance on standby if you ve seen video tape of the incident it is amazing how much blood there was it was literally spurting out all over the ice as clint grabbed his neck and watched the puddle in horror amazingly enough he made a full recovery and played again in the nhl he was getting on in years at the time of the incident anyway and didn t play for too long afterward some people speculated that he just couldn t get himself back together after the incident and i think he had a bunch of other personal problems dogging him afterward he did eventually get back to form and played another year or so after that and then i believe he retired anyone else carol boudreau a k a the x terminator boudreau athena mit edu go flames rock the kings
rec.sport.hockey	way to go ferraro the isles picked one hell of a time to get their first win all year after being down after periods the caps seemed to have the game in hand playing steady defense and getting great goaltending from tabaracci the isles power play philosophy continues to be dump and chase which except for boardaholics like flatley doesn t work against the caps i hope al realizes this they have too many talented finesse players so why not carry the puck in and set up if last night s game is any omen the isles could be on their way to that ole championship form coming from behind late in a game my advice to the caps is to pounce on those healy rebounds flatley showed alot of heart by playing the last period and overtime despite an almost swollen shut left eye injury suffered at the hands of dale hunter ray ferraro has arrived just in time for the playoffs showing the fiesty hustle that us islander fans remember from an italian from the past john tonelli it was tonelli who won a similar game against the pens in game on the playoffs the isles scored two late third period goals to send the game into ot tied at in ot tonelli scored the game winner to send the isles to the next round the isles have lacked this tenacity for years but perhaps its back it was good to see the coliseum packed just like the ole days good luck to the isles the rest of the way john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov and the home of the brave jerry garcia bob weir vince welnick april opening day candlestick park
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes lots of debate about the virtues of bryan murray vs pat quinn as a gm deleted randy graca seems to think murray is the best gm in the league i think quinn is one of several who are better plus his team quinn s has improved a much greater amount than detroit since he took over with them how do you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close to the same number of points they both went down in the first round of the playoffs before finally escaping in games and they both got knocked out in the second round by teams they should have been able to beat with less talent specifically if i remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further if i m not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver at the end of this season albeit not many when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs i can t recall if they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre to a serious contender when murray took over in detroit the were about a team that was a contender to win the norris division and possibly even a stanley cup contender so quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over as a gm quinn is one example of a better gm than murray gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re habs win habs win in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes yahooooooooooooooooooooo what a game we finally beat those diques and in o t the habs dominated this game and especially in o t they finally started going to the net see what happens when you create some traffic muller deserves full marks what a player and damphousse finally started skating roy thankyouthankyouthankyou was excellent did you see that third period save on young and the defense was taking out quebec players in the zone anybody else wonder if hextall will feel like a dweeb when he finds out that the winning goal went in off his own d man s skate whatta suck although he is playing really well life doesn t get better than this sure it does on sunday when the b s are golfing and the habs are tied you ll see what i mean nick dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit in article fq vru wbna l pi andrew cmu edu matthew t keating mk andrew cmu edu writes during the first three games of the pens devils series i have been impressed time and time again by the pure talent of the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun to watch but one element of this team which goes unnoticed seems to be scotty bowman bowman is in the hockey hall of fame as a coach already and unlike gil stein he didn t get their by stacking the board of directors while no one can replace the genius and optimism of badger bob johnson bowman in his own way has made himself a permanent though not clearly seen mark in pittsburgh bowman is the genius johnson isn t bowman is a great coach johnson a very good one however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article rap psuvm psu edu rap psuvm psu edu robbie po writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley oh really i seem to remember this year s woofers consisting mainly of yourself and roger boston fans were relatively quiet cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky i guess the concept of a fan who is not cocky is something you couldn t possible understand eh but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg nah i doubt you really would you re just being a provocative sob as usual with a large stick up your but of course i mean that in the nicest way and just how much bragging did you do wobbie on r s b c after umass beat your quakers btw congratulations should go to the sabres they are playing more diciplined and with more will to win they deserve it dan dan vicorp com
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs crushed again blues win flames back jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did in clutch n grab shoot the puck out it s incredibly boring to watch but if it works road i agree it s very boring if you re not a blues fan but the blues played two perfect road games not boring is right it is more likely to cause me to have a stroke i had to listen to game two on the blackhawk station and i don t think i could take another call of and joseph makes a spectacular saaaaaave now i m a blues fan but i don t want them to play like they played in game two sure the result was fine but the blues match up very well with the hawks so they really don t need to treat them like the flames we don t need a monday night miracle to have a chance to beat chicago the blues can do it on talent at least over the hawks rich h go blues a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in a previous article huot cray com tom huot says geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it the usa today says late this year the question is will hockey be moved to espn permenantly or will it be where they have a game of the week on espn and have a bunch of other games on espn mike cornell there are a great many people in the country today who mac po cwru edu through no fault of their own are sane monty python let s go flyers stanley cup in oh my brain hurts mr d p gumby
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions in article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems to be an inner calm that i ve never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have so much confidence in the team this year we re savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory while i m glad to have the pens doing so well in some ways it was a better high back when the pens beat the bruins two years ago and the rangers last year too much of a good thing is not always good for you rick
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca f hh unb ca patrick walker writes much mindless drivel deleted sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb question to you canadian folk is this university of new brunswick a branch campus of the western business school seems like the same sort of rectal appendage belongs to both of them rick
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale in article yadalle cab yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal the probability is that the oilers are not going anywhere pocklington has chosen this moment to make his last stand is because he is at the moment of maximum advantage the provincial government is months away from a provincial election it is the moment when he has maximum power to convince northlands to give him a better arena deal or a better purchase price and it is before the nhl s new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing pocklington is many things stupid is not one of them he can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price if edmonton doesn t edmonton has already fucked up its international airport and surrendered supremacy to calgary and over the next few years edmonton is going to take a hard hit from government cutbacks it will screw itself beyond recogniton if it manages to find a way to lose its hockey team too because northlands wants to continue to use the oilers to subsidize horse racing however in this case about the long term financial viability of the oilers the fact is that pocklington is basically right regardless of who owns the team and it is right to provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions of dollars in losses or becomes habitually uncompetitive because of lack of money sather has done his job the oilers are poised to be competitive again very soon al strachan one of the most knowledgeble hockey writers in canada in a post mortem of the oilers season in the globe and mail recently agrees with me gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl alltime scoring leaders all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm la i wonder how many more years it will take gretz to beat this one mike
rec.sport.hockey	re espn if espn pisses you off call them they do respond to calls last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn t see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away their phone number is susan dart
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts in article r u v prv msuinfo cl msu edu twork egr msu edu michael twork writes roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return wake up and smell the norris rick zombo was traded to the blues for vince riendo sp last season mike sorry mike what defensemen would the wings be willing to give up for beezer
rec.sport.hockey	re sabres bruins in article lte tcinn vr appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i m not a buffalo fan but i could get on their bandwagon if they win welcome aboard and since i haven t seen this yet this year but all preceding years let me say t h i s c o u l d b t h e y e a r not
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name clint malarchuk what has happened to him since assigned to san diego gulls at the being of the season i believe what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info it was uwe krupp and a blues player though uwe s skate i beleive cut clint he has since be traded to the isles in the lafontaine deal has this ever happened before in a hockey game this is the only time i know of tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu go sabres
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes stuff deleted when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs i can t recall if they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre to a serious contender when murray took over in detroit the were about a team that was a contender to win the norris division and possibly even a stanley cup contender the last year before bryan murray took over the wings did not make the playoffs while they had been considered a possible contender when jacques demers first arrived in his last two years they were respectively embarrassed in the first round by chicago and then failed to make the playoffs at a time a might add when there were only five teams in the norris it s true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many a year before quinn came but in those years the smythe division was a lot i mean a lot tougher division than the norris also known as the snorris division vancouver had to play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times a year while detroit got to play such powerhouses as toronto and minnesota now edmonton is hardly even a force in the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while over this same period of time in which vancouver was improving so was everybody in the norris except st louis detroit had to improve just to keep up with the competition in their division they had to improve a lot to get better than their competition in the norris bryan murray inherited a team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about it and no doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies or washed up veterans the only reason they got as far as they did in the years before murray came was due to the coaching of demers who at least at first got every last ounce of effort possible out of his team then even his coaching began to degrade so quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over as a gm quinn is one example of a better gm than murray there are a number of reasons why detroit wasn t in as bad a shape standings wise when murray took over as vanc was when quinn took over some of which i outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel to work with at the outset than did quinn with the exception of yzerman and one player cannot alone make a team into a stanley cup contender as i m sure everyone reading this will agree we ll be able to see better which team is really the most improved when they face each other in the conference final assuming they don t get knocked out like last year gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	sports broadcasting on fm i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.hockey	tv coverage nhl to blame the tv coverage of the playoffs is fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind of shit is this if that would have happened to the flyers if they were in the damn playoffs to begin with while i was watching i would have gone throught the roof however everybody is getting pissed off at espn but they are not the ones to blame they have prior contracts that they just can t simply break whenever they want to the n h l is to blame when they signed the deal with espn they had to know of this they had to know shit like this would happen since they wouldn t have complete priority the n h l should be feeling the heat that is being thrown at espn how can the n h l do this to its fans how dare they we are the ones that make the damn league exist and they can t even televise complete playoff games for us to watch they more i write about this the more pissed off i get we must let the n h l know that we expect a little better than this if anybody out there knows how to go about doing this let me and everybody else know well i had to get that off my chest and while i m at it mario is the michael jordan of hockey all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least last night in the rd game between nj and pitt he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off the guy on him was doing a good job so he got off a weak shot but then he decided to fall to the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and my roomate who is clueless about hockey wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick and no he did not trip him it is simple mario gets touched he falls to the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed me off is pitt scored the rd or th goal i don t remember on the resulting pp and eventually won his diving calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game they gotta stop the damn holding and interference that is so fucking obvious that is not hockey it allows inferior players to bring down the level of the better players and allows inferior teams to beat better ones this has pissed me off for many years now and it has improved somewhat however during the playoffs and rd periods the damn refs must misplace their balls because they sure don t make any calls that show that they got any all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed steve
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes there are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the fans i feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages i think a compromise would work namely honouring personages in conference names and using geographical references in the divisional names although i still do not think the move will draw fans to the game imo it s a cosmetic change that bettman and the owners hope will have an effect and it doesn t say much for the mentality of anybody it works on either another thing that bothers me is the points system percentages as used in the other major sports are clearly more informative when i look at the nhl standings the first thing i have to do is make a quick calculation to account for games in hand which is almost always the case some will object to percentages claiming perhaps that it is an americanization of the sport surprise i agree totally the points system is fine if everybody at all times has played the same number of games since this is almost never the case winning percentage is the way to go i don t particularly care if it is an american thing either if it works dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	bleep bruins lose in o t bleep bleep bleep the bruins lost again in o t i can t stand it aside from frustrated ravings i must give buffalo credit they are making good on most of their scoring opportunities and are playing great defense boston players can t seem to get control of the puck anywhere near the buffalo net except for on rare occasions the buffalo defense is also doing an excellent job clearing away rebounds fuhr is playing great when the big save is needed but he s also getting plenty of help boston has been playing rather well better than would be indicated by the series score of but is lacking that extra drive in the earlier part of the game as a result boston keeps leaving the ice at the end of the st period goals down this must stop if boston is to have any hope of winning a single game the outlook for the bruin s advancement to the second round are quite bleak imho the bruins need to score first if they can do that they have an excellent chance of winning since they have outplayed the sabres in the nd and rd periods the scary thing is that i ll be going to grad school in buffalo next year i ll never cheer for the sabres you can t convert me mtm mike mosscrop die hard bruins fan dept of chemistry umass lowell mosscropm woods ulowell edu
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale in article yadalle cab yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief i heard yesterday that pocklington was talking with folks at copps that afternoon yesterday valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead of johan by your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh on injured reserve falloon was hurt on a clean check he just fell poorly same with wilson i don t know about ozolinsh a judo coach would do more for the sharks injury situation than bob probert actually a judo ju jitsu coach could help add a really interesting wrinkle to anyone s game archer
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder says the fat lady is about to hit the first note okay how about deficits the b s chances for a comeback are now less that s based on game playoff format actually that s based on the nhl s history of games the statstical odds of winning one straight game two straight games three straight games straight games the odds of the penguins winning straight games in the playoffs was of course this doesn t include weighted average but the pens beating the devils straight a weaker team along with beating the rangers straight a much stronger team has made the act balanced out that s about right for boston the odds of winning are probably closer to with weighted average since buffalo s record isn t as good and boston has a stronger team enough about my qba probabilities though it s just goes to prove anything is possible if you integrate that to debbie gibson who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too moog gets about s out of for his performance from me i give blue starts fuhr has been too tough buffalo caught a hot goaltender just in time i mean after all buffalo is wins losses in their last harry sinden s appearance outside of b s dressing room after game was a pathetic site he said something really retarded to cover sutter s behind this game is not about winning or losing harry check the it s very frustrating to lose and you ve gotta say something actually it s not about winning or losing it is how you play the game but when the competition is magnified to this level of the people only care about who wins or loses schedule your team is in the playoffs and about to go on a long summer vacation on sunday morning i think buffalo will win in it s not like boston is getting blown away they lost ot games with a different bounce they could easily be up harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year good point here chicago s in deep trouble tonight the hawks have a bad past history of winning the division and losing early when they don t finish st they do okay robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article apr vicorp com dan vicorp com dan gauthier says even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky i guess the concept of a fan who is not cocky is something you couldn t possible understand eh my sig has nothing to do with cockiness what you put in your sig has nothing to do with your article as i learned back in the fall the hard way nah i doubt you really would you re just being a provocative sob as usual with a large stick up your but of course i mean that in the you mean butt don t you not but nicest way sure you do what and just how much bragging did you do wobbie on r s b c after umass beat your quakers two points one what does r s b c have to do with hockey secondly umass beat my quakers hello earth here are you responding we re not in the atlantic or whatever you wanna call it we re in the big now the a was too weak for my lady lions they had to go to a more challenging conference it didn t pay off as the big east showed them a thing or too but i still posted on a regular basis and tracked all the women s scores with reviews throughout the tournament it wasn t a reason to stop posting btw congratulations should go to the sabres they are playing more it s not over yet if anyone has a chance to come back in games i think boston can do it but i still see buffalo winning in diciplined and with more will to win they deserve it agreed they re playing tremendous hockey right now congatualtions on three straight buffalo it could very easily be boston but buffalo has come up tough and a little luck you never see a penalty in ot that doesn t have both sides involved in a playoff game never never never robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes if espn pisses you off call them they do respond to calls last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn t see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away their phone number is susan dart well i think whenever espn covers the game they do a wonderful job but what i don t understand is that they cut the ot just show some stupid baseball news which is not important at all then i waited for the scores to comeon sportscenter but they talk about baseball basketball and football then they showed penguine highlight and went back to stupid basketball finally they showed a highlight of the ot goal but that was like sec i think they should give more attention to nhl during the playoffs then talking about boring basketball games i guess it is nhl s fault too for leaving espn hope things improve by next season cobra
rec.sport.hockey	ghost from sweeney s past wow this guy seems to be out to prove something to his old team boston which sweeney you ask well of course bob sweeney the one that boston let buffalo get a hold of they still have sweeneys which makes things slightly confusing game winner in ot in game and another big goal seconds after fuhr made point blank saves this is why grant has rings to put buffalo ahead in the rd yes neely countered a minute later but hadn t this course of buffalo going ahead after being tied and shutting down another few great scoring opportunities i think boston would have notched their first win of the series well the sabres haven t made it to the end of this series yet but i certainly feel they ve got boston right were they want them actually they ve got them in a position that neither buffalo nor boston felt that would come about one more astronomical game by fuhr a few more heroics by the rest of the team this is a team sport afterall and i think borque neely jouneau sp and company are gonna be swinging a new stick weather is perfect for golf season real soon i m not gonna waiger anything on this because i ve seen some really strange things happen in both pro and college hockey talking about golf was that a hockey swing golf swing or baseball swing that hawerchuck used in the last shot of the game that khmylev deflected in for the big one the whole ot all minute of it was a tesiment to buffalo s ability to really be persistent and grind it out in the end something they weren t necessarily in the regular season the sabres pushed hard and forced borque to blatently take down bodger in the opening seconds i don t normally like penalties being called in such ultra critical points but this was blatent finally the sabres won a faceoff they weren t that hot in this dept the rest of the game when lafontaine scooped at the puck times when hawerchuck took his shot quite a boomer but blue stopped this one he took a few steps over to get his own rebound and slapped at it again without setting it up i didn t realize it went in until the announcer started screaming they score they score the best was seeing lafontaine jumping up and down skating a little bit jumping some more and then skating over to brad may who he jumped on doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer in article c wiuy d cs cmu edu lli cs cmu edu lori iannamico writes don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba well your majesty couldn t you just picture it cherry starts doing his first post game interview with barrasso tommy gives him that little look like somebody crapped on his shoe and then proceeds to give don a tonsilectomy with his sher wood now that you could put on pay per view hope you had a good laugh george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article c sqz eg acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes and i ll give fuhr s new one an honourable mention although i haven t seen it closely yet it looked good from a distance this is the new buffalo one the second since he s been with the sabres i recall a price tag of over just for the paint job on that mask and a total price of almost ouch yeah it s the second one and i believe that price too i ve been trying to get a good look at it on the bruin sabre telecasts and wow does it ever look good whoever did that paint job knew what they were doing and given fuhr s play since he got it i bet the bruins are wishing he didn t have it
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens i remember reading an article in reader s digest many moons ago about a similar incident during a minor leaque game a player neck was cut when the opponent he was back checking tripped and his skakes flew up in this case the victim s mask proved a hinderance since his face was protected and so he didn t bother with the usually instinctive reaction to protect his face neck a quick thinking coach saved his life by applying direct pressure and using snow to contract the blood vessels from what i can remember bill scott wscott physics ubc ca go jets go down but not out
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots hi guys i m looking to answe a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv i e letterman carson leno arsenio etc i e shows of a national nature include canadian equivalents if you can think of any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others i saw messier and leetch shooting at a camera on letterman i could have been any show though since i watch none of those late night shows very regularly john santore philadelphia flyers in we break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs go philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis w gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger duncan nicholas duncan writes i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry color man for pens next year isn t he the guy who took shots at jagr and ulf in a recent sports illustrated i m not familiar with cherry s work and maybe he s known for sarcasm but i d have to wonder about him doing commentary for the pens bart
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article c y xd dox acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes and tuttle is no longer with the blues but i don t know where he is possibly in the ihl but you d best ask a blues fan steve tuttle was traded from the blues to tb in the before the start of this season along with pat jablonski for future considerations he played for milwaukee of the ihl then got traded from tb to que along with michel mongeau he s currently playing with halifax of the ahl a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	ulf crushes valeri zelepukin that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner billc bill clare eastman kodak company internet clare bissun kodak com m c elmgrove road phone rochester new york any opinions expressed herein belong to me and not to my employer
rec.sport.hockey	re espn s lack of coverage in article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year i had the rangers on msg and the two different games on scny and sca on at the same time yes i d rather have sc cover it just for the amount of coverage so this year you had a game on scny a game on sca a game on espn and if the rangers hadn t crashed and burned you would have had a game on msg what are you complaining about i seem to recall last year everyone complaining about sc coverage i even remember orioles games being shown in the dc area instead of hockey and what about when sc failed to show the conclusion of other games because its feature game was over sound familiar this year i m getting twice the coverage i can see all the caps games plus the games espn shows i think it s great that hockey is back on espn imho they re doing a great job especially considering the baseball contract they have to work around peter kester pkester mitre org
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article ps sscl uwo ca ps sscl uwo ca writes in article r fs fhc msuinfo cl msu edu hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator writes from hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator felix potvin deserves to have the sh kicked out of him if there is anyone that he should be hitting with his stick its his pussy defensemen who can t seem to move big dino ciccerelli lbs out from in front of the net obviously toronto has realized that they are overmatched by the wings and must rely on trying to antagonize the superior red wings with cheap shots i prefer to watch hockey than seeing shots of felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing in front of the net he has every right to stand in front of the net just not in the crease yes he does but the goalie sure as hell doesn t want him there when i played roller hockey boy do i miss those days as a goalie i would scream at my defense to clear guys out of the slot i don t care if he s in the crease or not get him the hell away from me so i can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and if there was nobody around to clear the slot then i d do it myself by pushing the offending player hard i hate people in my way when i m the goalie and i am sure felix does too i should say that i didn t see the incident so if potvin really swung the stick big time then that s not right but he can move people out of the way he s a player on the ice too you know keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	where s the knowledgeable observer in franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes duncan nicholas duncan writes i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect it is indeed nice to have fans that are concerned about the dearth of disputatious dissertation linked to my hiatus have simply been too damned busy lately to keep you lads and lassies entertained you can be sure however that i will somehow manage to find time to woof if the leafs give just cause and let s all try to keep people s names especially mine out of the subject headers i for one neither seek nor enjoy such a cheap form of notoriety one thing you can be assured of however is this the leafs are the best of all the teams in the league that have allowed goals in games cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions richard j coyle gomer pitt edu wrote that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory at least last night there was some excitement the pens didn t have it wrapped up before the game was half over like the previous two games i m not sure if nj just rose up and played better or if the penguins just started to play down somewhat probably it was somewhere in between new jersey seemed much more aggressive last night in the pens end they did much more swarming around which at least kept an element of suspense in the game no question that billington helped make it more interesting also claude lemieux didn t help the cause any though with his ejection early in the game so who s going to start in the devils goal for the final game sunday sorry i couldn t help myself tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca wrote bowman is the genius johnson isn t bowman is a great coach johnson a very good one however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part imho bowman is the perfect coach for this group of players at this time johnson was the perfect coach two years ago for his group of players i would say we have been very lucky here in pittsburgh that the order these coaches came in was this one excluding the unfortunate circumstances which brought about the change with the immense talent on the penguins roster this year a tougher bowman keeps the egos in check johnson on the other hand was able to inspire the younger inexperienced players to new heights both coaches have had different strengths both of which came at exactly the right time another person also mentioned that bowman is the perfect coach for this time since nobody can argue with his decisions how can you argue with the coach with the best record in hockey anyway playing for a great coach like that demands respect which also keeps the egos in check just a couple of ideas tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	stats hello could someone tell me if and where i could find faceoff stats for the season and later on the i think its to early to get it now thanks a lot jp
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens it was clint malarchuk whatever happened to him anyway barfly go sigh leafs cry
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask poll update now here this anyone voting for john blue for best goalie mask poll will be shot on site no questions asked but c mon it s a black mask with yellow paint along the opening how totally plain vanilla eeuu heh someone mentioned tommy soderstrom flyers for the besk mask poll too in the mentioned below part all he has is a plain white helmet with a big cage i found this pretty amusing john santore philadelphia flyers in we break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs go philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis w gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	hockey equip recommendations hey man having spent the past season learning to skate and having played a couple of sessions of mock hockey i m ready to invest in hockey equipment particularly since i will be taking summer hockey lessons however i am completely and profoundly ignorant when it comes to hockey equipment i ve checked out local stores and looked at catalogs but i was hoping to solicit opinions suggestions before actually plunking down any money having played football in high school and college i at least have that equipment as a basis for comparison but for example what are the advantages disadvantages to different kinds of shoulder pads and pants girdles are there any notoriously bad or unsafe brands or styles etc so any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated tom menner i when you re swimming in the creek software engineering institute i and an eel bites your cheek carnegie mellon university i that s a moray pittsburgh pa i fabulous furry freak bros
rec.sport.hockey	re espn s lack of coverage pkester hooville mitre org peter kester writes jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year yes i d rather have sc cover it just for the amount of coverage so this year you had a game on scny a game on sca a game on espn and if the rangers hadn t crashed and burned you would have had a game on msg what are you complaining about the problem is that by no fault of espn ongoing games are not covered til the final horn sounds with two channels scny and sca late finishing games up to pacific time and overtimes elsewhere will kick in at the end of local coverage if scny is blocked by the mets there is still some hockey on sca scny plus with an espn the current situation would be alleviated gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes i said gund will have to open his checkbook i didn t say give up any draft picks or promising talent if we could have gotten murphy for the m great but i agree the sharks shouldn t give up young talent or early round draft picks i listed chelios et al only to indicate the type of player i think the sharks need to pick up the rules on signing free agents less than years old puts a big restriction on what the sharks can pick up however i do believer they need to pick up some players who will add toughness to the team but you have to remember that you re unlikely to get any real quality free agents who do not require compensation the sharks tried with makarov who was probably the top of the class among non compensation free agents but even he probably wouldn t have helped too much don t expect to get top quality just some toughness i don t view makarov as a player who would add toughness size hopefully won t be much of a worry next year alexander cherbayev and michal sykora have agreed to multi year contracts and it appears that mike rathje will also sign soon all three are pretty big size alone isn t enough we all know how much fear kolstad struck in the eyes of opponents not well rathje and sykora are both highly touted prospects unlike kolstad and cherbayev was initially supposed to play for the russian wc team anybody know what happened there that means that he s likely to be good enough nelson you re confusing skill and toughness mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead of johan by your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh on injured reserve by your logic then you think that if the sharks had kept mcgill and hammond that you can guarantee that falloon and ozolinsh wouldn t have gotten hurt think again there was a chance that mcgill would have caused ozolinsh to get stuck at kc and as you know hammond is worthless and mcgill is almost worthless well wilson maybe but i don t think falloon and ozolinsh were really injured on cheapshots who said they were if they weren t then i don t see any justification that having mcgill and hammond around would prevent their injuries if the injuries of falloon and ozolinsh were purely accidental then what could mcgill and hammond have done to prevent them hey get off the mcgill hammond thing i m no fan of either my point is that last year the sharks had toughness that was missing this year this year we had more skill i m all for that but if your skill players keep getting beat up and injured they can t do you much good whether it s a cheap shot or not you can t let the other teams push you around the sharks simply got pushed around to much other teams knew this they knew they could aggressively check the sharks and not pay for it adding some players in the off season who will add some toughness to the team will help insure that next season other teams will be more hesistant to vigorously check our skill players or to take cheap shots it doesn t guarantee no injuries nothing does but it s something the sharks can do to reduce the number of injuries mark just say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace k epicenter
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots two years ago mark messier appeared on david letterman the summer he signed wit h the rangers i remember he and mike gartner taking slapshots at the camera one finally was a bullseye and the screen went blank it was funny if you saw it i guess
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca f hh unb ca patrick walker writes who should get the hart mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber ten minutes now give me a f king break with this mario is the best player ever what did gretzky die i wish bobby clarke not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario but if mario is going to complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real to complain about sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb why don t you kill him beav well i dunnow eddie i might get in trouble here s a gun beav shoot him beav well ok eddie blam blam wally you re in trouble now beave
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt that is if mario makes it pat walker sounds like the type that would bring an ak to a game and take pot shots at mario stand still dam sunavbich hmff joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article fq vic wb rq d andrew cmu edu ch g andrew cmu edu chad nicholas hunter writes i live in pittsburgh yes i m a pens fan where hockey gets a lot of coverage i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in texas must feel or a caps fan residing in atlanta where they dont even tell the f cking playoff scores on the news go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick so if potvin can pound on dino what happens when dino pounds on him if dino gets his legs slashed can he slash potvin in return this year at a um lssu hockey game a um player was called for a slash when he hit the goalie s glove with his stick is that slashing while hitting someone s ankles isn t how do the refs know what to call do the goalies get more liberties than other players brad
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots sclark epas utoronto ca susan clark writes i m looking to answer a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv examples deleted i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others michael j fox was on letterman about a year ago or two during the playoffs as a celebrity hockey player for the bruins while he s not exactly a nhler he did mention that the bruins wanted to break ulfie s legs or something like that in response to the neely incident it was quite amusing as one of the few letterman viewers who actually knew what he was talking about anybody know who the pens celebrity hockey player is michael douglas aka michael keaton joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question what sadist brought up this vein about malarchuk when i saw what happened i wanted to throw up and at the same time i was devastated since i thought that malarchuk wouldn t survive btw i believe he picked up an alcohol problem after before the incident to radically change the subject the caps must be having nightmares about the isles in overtime in the playoffs have they ever beaten the islanders in a playoff ot game this is lunacy the caps are such a sorry team in the playoffs they consistently choke against opponents who they should be beating losing two ot games in a row is not coincidence it s evidence of the choke factor keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu hey we could start a new game on the net it s called where s roger it s similiar to where s waldo but instead of finding waldo in a picture of people we try to find roger in a newsgroup on the net i predict that he ll be in r s basketball pro next laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame in article apr ns cc lehigh edu sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes mario is the michael jordan of hockey all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least last night in the rd game between nj and pitt he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off the guy on him was doing a good job so he got off a weak shot but then he decided to fall to the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and my roomate who is clueless about hockey wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick and no he did not trip him it is simple mario gets touched he falls to the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed me off is pitt scored the rd or th goal i don t remember on the resulting pp and eventually won his diving calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed steve we must have been watching two different games the devil had one hand on mario s elbow and pulling the elbow caused mario to fall so the call was appropriate using clueless people to substantiate your claims doesn t give me a lot of confidence in your call either next time consider getting a second opinion from a clueful observer or maybe all those available disagreed joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they i agree that keenan is an excellent choice did you see mike lupica s column in sunday s news my sentiments exactly i think he just may be the one to instill some hunger and fire into their hearts next season either that or he s going to be kicking alot of butt reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m here but am new to this group and have been keeping fairly quiet you know doing the lurking thing i don t have a sense how many rangers fans there are on the list either i am a die hard ranger fan i guess i have to be i sat in the garden throughout the penguins led by mario s goals decimation of them on but am sick at the abundance of talent that has been totally untapped and the lack of heart displayed this season i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down hurlbut was injured for quite a while i m not sure but i think he may have recovered in time for the playoff run and if so like you question why he wasn t used why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play i believe kocur was used in many instances for his intimidation factor granted he seemed to get an awful lot of ice time for that reason alone but you have to realize that when a team is not doing any real physical intimidation i d like to have a nickel for every time j d said they ve got to take the body more you ve got to at least have some illusions how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason i agree and i don t know joe cirella enough said sorry i don t agree with you here i think joey c did a good job filling in when he was asked to i can t imagine that it s easy going from near ice time to being a full timer i don t seem to remember him turning the puck over at the blue line too much or failing to clear the zone he worked hard and at least didn t make any rookie mistakes as he said himself in an interview he can only give what he has and he did ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins absolutely i think attendance at the garden was better on the last day of the season than any average night for the islanders fought series mario is amazing the man is awesome in a way i m enjoying the playoffs more now that the rangers aren t in them i can really appreciate all the glory mario is getting without hating him because he s on the opposing team he deserves it all as far as i m concerned mary mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu hamilton college clinton n y go rangers next year
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes the tv coverage of the playoffs is fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind of shit is this if that would have happened to the flyers if they were in the damn playoffs to begin with while i was watching i would have gone throught the roof for those of you who read tv guide there s an article in next week s sportsview concerning the nhl and major network broadcasting pretty interesting jennifer
rec.sport.hockey	re where s the knowledgeable observer maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes one thing you can be assured of however is this the leafs are the best of all the teams in the league that have allowed goals in games cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time roger you should check your facts before posting the kings have conceded goals in games jon
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all drozinst db erau edu drozinski tim writes as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf s head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it with your back assward mentality saying that hurting a player will solve anyone s problems is asinine new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted right now too many of the real goons get away with too much because the ref is watching the play or supposed to be i ve seen koharski and van hellemond to name a few with their heads up their asses on a few calls rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties it would be an improvement unfortunately that is the way the league is heading you can t fight so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when the ref isn t looking ulf has brought this to a high level players stuck in the past like neely who prefer fights to cheap shots are at a disadvantage in the new system lets face it a cheap shot like high sticking is a very effective method it is easier to hide from the refs has a better chance of causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way i don t like it but that s the way the league is going by the way there was a rather good hit by ulf in the last penguin devil game managed to hit the nj player in the face with a stick must have been a legal hit after all ulf is a clean player and is allowed to do things like that
rec.sport.hockey	oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week i heard a story on the local sports news broadcast in edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will be holding a press conference next week while the exact details are not known it is believed to concern the oiler s future rumour has it that pocklington signed a tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium in hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal it is quite possible that the deal may simply be a way to force edmonton northlands to renegotiate the oiler lease on the stadium northlands has offered to buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately by pocklington as for me my opinion is divided edmonton has been fairly supportive of the oilers even though they re a small market team they had many sellouts in the s even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought in more fans than many teams in larger cities did on the other hand if the team does move there is no place more deserving than hamilton of course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme of bettman
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played tue april ny islanders washington first period ny islanders turgeon king thomas second period washington hunter johansson miller ny islanders turgeon thomas vaske washington hunter johansson carpenter pp third period ny islanders hogue unassisted washington khristich cavallini bondra ny islanders ferraro flatley hogue washington hunter johansson khristich pp first overtime no scoring second overtime ny islanders mullen ferraro flatley ny islanders power play scorer g a pts ferraro flatley hogue king mullen thomas turgeon vaske washington power play scorer g a pts bondra carpenter cavallini hunter johansson khristich miller montreal quebec first period quebec leschyshyn kamensky sakic pp quebec young lapointe quebec young lapointe duchesne second period no scoring third period montreal bellows odelein quebec lapointe ricci en quebec power play special goals pp en total scorer g a pts duchesne kamensky lapointe leschyshyn ricci sakic young montreal power play scorer g a pts bellows odelein new jersey pittsburgh first period pittsburgh mceachern francis taglianetti pittsburgh lemieux samuelsson barrasso sh second period pittsburgh tocchet stevens samuelsson pittsburgh jagr francis ramsey pittsburgh stevens francis murphy pp pittsburgh mceachern daniels mullen third period pittsburgh mullen francis barrasso pittsburgh power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts barrasso daniels francis jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy ramsey samuelsson stevens taglianetti tocchet new jersey power play no scoring buffalo boston first period buffalo presley unassisted sh buffalo wood moller sweeney pp second period buffalo mogilny lafontaine third period buffalo hawerchuk carney smehlik pp buffalo power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts carney hawerchuk lafontaine mogilny moller presley smehlik sweeney wood boston power play no scoring
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes ok here is my try the czech republic goaltenders petr briza finland somewhere right lukko finland look at the colors of his mask defense leo gudas ex jypht finland now in germany excellent defenseman drahomir kadlec hifk finland jiri kucera tappara finland tomas kapusta hpk finland otakar janecky finland jokerit finland radek toupal hpk finland jiri dolezal jypht finland no new contract jypht owns his player rights all of these czechs kadlec dolezal not anymore are very good hockey players it is a big surprise that hlinka selected dolezal dole had a bad season in jypht and that s why they didn t make a new contract the other czech we had jiri jonak got fired also there are lots of czechs playing in finland darius rusnak igor liba sejba svoboda
rec.sport.hockey	german audience is lunatic i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi
rec.sport.hockey	a few words of advice to the stars hater i have some advice for you and some thoughts about your hatred of the minnesota north stars a real team like toronto would not be moved you are right just eliminated from the playoffs first round why stay in minnesota when you can go to a college in western ontario and actually take classes on map reading and the artistry of bsing specifically set up for just you why should anyone love the stars when hating the leafs is so much better oh i m sorry well maybe you can t understand my big words next time i ll limit my vocabulary to words like get real team now and do not waste our time respond to this article i love to laugh at your humor even though it it unintentional i got a big kick out of go leafs go go where home i think delarocq eos ncsu edu afc east division champions and afc conference champions squished the fish monday night football november squished the trash talking fish afc championship january if you are a buffalo bills fan email me at delarocq eos ncsu edu so we can talk all about the games insight etc if you are a packers fan let me know i am interested in any news out of green bay
rec.sport.hockey	bruins could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes jesus christ the score is now the pens are beating the shit out of the devils who gave up in the middle of the nd period espn does something smart the announcer states well folks this game is getting out of hand lets go to the islander capitals game i celebrate as i was actually making progress in my cs homework because i was so bored by the scheduled game i tear down and throw on my jersey hunter scores i go ape shit cause this is the first caps game i ve been able to watch all season and what does espn do they go back to the blowout that nj hasn t a chance in hell of winning the period ends and the sportscaster capitols just tied it up yes oops excuse me goes into his penguin worship mode dont freak pens fans they are worthy of this i m so glad we wont have to play them as much next year and here comes the rd period what its the blowout again oh they were just waiting for the cap isles to get out of intermission good they ve put a close game back on wait whats this shit they re showing the blowout again aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg oh guess what the score is now penguins switch games you holy shit they re changing games its about goddamned time lets see if they ll stay later i think this proves by point the caps game goes into overtime but due to contractual obligations they have to switch to the fucking baseball sorry for my language but im pissed what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out of your ass now i know there are a lot first of all i think when espn covers the game they do a wonderful job but last night i felt the same way i really hate watching devils pens game everyone knows that devils are going to get their ass kicked why even bother showing them i was so bored and these espn people don t seem to have any brain after the sundays and last night games they are still going to show devils pens on thu and sun what the hell are they thinking about i think if they keep it up like this nhl will never get a major network contract i d rather see caps isls game which is more exciting now i just hope all baseball games are rained out on espn so atleast we can get diffrent hockey games experience is what makes a person make new mistakes instead of old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon of the islanders mike
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes i loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance antonio you weren t alone abc ratings were very good i was schocked to hear that abc s telecast was the fifth most watched sporting event over the weekend national rating came out to a very respectable top nielsen markets were at in boston the game scored lower at but it had some competion from local sports teams quite frankly i expected abc s ratings to be under but i m happy to be proven wrong well well sometimes it pays off clicking away on your cable tv remote control and if you happen to be a hockey fan you could just stumble upon a playoff hockey game espn picked up detroit toronto game on monday night because the only night game in mlb was being rained out in chicago you have to give espn credit for switching to detroit s fox coverage and having bill clement at a pittsburgh s tv station wate for intermission analysis maybe espn people were giddy over perliminary over night abc ratings for sunday s telecast and thought it was a good idea to feature the norris division showdown rather than a monster truck competion good move espn ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours various justifiable rantings on espn coverage by several deleted the only way to change espn s thinking if it is even possible is to complain to them directly anyone know there telephone in bristol ct i do find it hard to believe that espn doesn t think viewers will simply change the channel from a boring game i know i did and then when they didn t show the nyi wash overtime s i was livid if i wanted to watch baseball i could have turned on the phillies padres extra inning game instead i went to bed angry i boycotted espn s morning sportscenter today i was still so incensed my wife says i shouldn t go to bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr tim mavor i am known by many names college of marine studies some call me tim univ of delaware newark de you know much that is hidden o tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	info world hockey championships does anyone have any information about the world hockey championships and specifically about the us team game summaries and or stats would be greatly appreciated usa today reported that the us beat the czech republic but that was the limit of the story thanks laura
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article blue cis pitt edu shah pitt edu ravindra s shah writes exactly that is my biggest complaint about the coverage so far follow that damn puck if espn abc is going to stick with one sided pens devils series and it looks like they will continue with it on thursday night i d rather watch pretty women in the stands than non action on the ice where a slow aging nj team being taken out to lunch by a dynamic pens squad ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn sucks ot or baseball guess which in article c tc aty ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes showing a meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than seconds left on the clock gimme a break where does espn get these brilliant decisions from it s called contractual obligations with major league baseball i would ve liked to see the ot of the isles caps game but i understand where espn is coming from espn is committed to a single telecast a night and everything after that is a bonus ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia the habs in article c ti c sy news cso uiuc edu caine uxa cso uiuc edu lord vader writes ok i m sure that this has been asked s of times before but i have wondered since i heard it where the hell did the nickname of the habs come from for the montreal canadiens thanks in advance caine schneider the answer is in the faq for this group nough said laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article lt dl inn u appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts and local baseball pre empted the nhl playoffs thus far into this good point not only baseball but local nba basketball games took precedence over any sca s nhl playoff coverage ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re red wings goespel in article apr wuecl wustl edu mvs cec wustl edu michael virata sy writes don t forget paul ysebaert ex devil he s a good team player and dino ciccarelli and ray sheppard and so on and so on laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes it s true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many a year before quinn came but in those years the smythe division was a lot i mean a lot tougher division than the norris also known as the snorris division vancouver had to play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times a year while detroit got to play such powerhouses as toronto and minnesota now edmonton is hardly even a force in the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while them thar s fighting words hardly a force geez miss the playoffs once in years and even after making the final four times in the last five years and everyone thinks its doomsville over this same period of time in which vancouver was improving so was everybody in the norris except st louis detroit had to improve just to keep up with the competition in their division they had to improve a lot to get better than their competition in the norris bryan murray inherited a team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about it and no doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies or washed up veterans the only reason they got as far as they did in the years before murray came was due to the coaching of demers who at least at first got every last ounce of effort possible out of his team then even his coaching began to degrade fedorov primeau kozlov lidstrom sillinger konstantinov drake kennedy racine and cheveldae were already in the pipeline due to devellano murray inherited these guys in addition to yzerman probert carson chiasson etc there are a number of reasons why detroit wasn t in as bad a shape standings wise when murray took over as vanc was when quinn took over some of which i outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel to work with at the outset than did quinn with the exception of yzerman and one player cannot alone make a team into a stanley cup contender as i m sure everyone reading this will agree no quinn had far less murray took over detroit at a time to take advantage of all of devellano s good drafting if devellano had not given in to demers request to make the oates trade he might still be gm gerald
rec.sport.hockey	bruins on april mckee cs buffalo edu douglas mckee wrote m were doomed to th in the division i m still not convinced the m sabres will win this series i ve lived in buffalo all my life and m these last years have been playoff hell but i m just sitting m back crossing my fingers and hoping the offense can keep scoring have no fear doug the bruins are toast statistically only teams in all the stanley cup series ever played have come back to win and it couldn t have happened to a nicer team with all the crowing from boston fans i ve had to endure over the last month take heart bruins fans at least you finished first in the adams sinister chuckle jack laugh and the world thinks you re an idiot rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	bruins on april wuziyun suned cs yale edu you wanna know wrote w w see the providence bruins lost the first two games at home and came back to w tie the series on the road there may be hope for the bruins yet toast they re toast and i know how much you want me to eat these words but it ain t gonna happen are the golf courses in the boston area in playable condition yet jack acid consumes times its weight in life rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	habs win habs win on april jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca wrote j j yahooooooooooooooooooooo j j what a game we finally beat those diques and in o t j the habs dominated this game and especially in o t you realize that we dominated game also and should be ahead in this series j glorieux were plagued by bad luck the puck wouldn t bounce their j way but in o t they got their lucky break the winning goal j went off gusarov s skate thank you lord and it s about time we hit posts in this overtime and post in game s overtime let s hope that we start getting some luck for a change he played well in this game but roy s inconsistency still makes me nervous otherwise i d say we re going to win this series no sweat it s all up to patrick roy to provide consistent goaltending j and those damn bruins lost in o t their down congratulations j buffalo j j life doesn t get better than this agreed g jack tagline bad or missing no carrier rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	hockeytipset avgjort hockey tipset v ren vinnare av hockey tipset per bengtson grattis slutst llning per bengtson lars andersson anders engwall staffan axelsson patrik sander hannu l a hietanen ingvar khan noran cs tut fi jan stein roger wennstr m lars thore aarhus fredrik nissen marek repinski lars wiklund lennart hedenstr m vinnare och lycklig gare av en fbk mugg r allts per bengtson kometen som ledde hockeytipset vid halvtid men som sedan fick ge vika f r anders engwall i slutspurten de tre f rsta lyckades pricka in den viktiga fr ga sm guld till bryn s kanske var det v l sv rt att tippa slutspelet ocks men man ser att om den j mna finalen mellan lule och bryn s ist llet hade slutat till lule s f rdel s hade det varit samma vinnare i alla fall h r f ljer de korrekta svaren siffran inom parentes anger hur m nga som hade tippat detta anger per bengtsons vinnande rad elitserien tippa den slutgiltiga tabellen v ster s bryn s malm f rjestad modo lule leksand djurg rden hv r gle vilka av de kvartsfinalisterna g r vidare till semifinal djurg rden lule bryn s malm vilka lag m ts i final lule bryn s vilka blir svenska m stare p bryn s allsvenskan v stra fr lunda huddinge bj rkl ven aik team g vle boden staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight in boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight in boston looks like boston can hang this season up because buffalo s home record is awesome this is great buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year i m glad grant fuhr will never be as over confident after two wins as you are it takes four wins to defeat an opponent each tougher to obtain than the previous one buffalo is off to a good start fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins in article apr exu ericsson se lmcmasc noah ericsson se writes could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game grant fuhr rules gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes in article lte kinn ul appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i don t think trading kisio was intrinsically a mistake however trading him for a rd round pick would be he should have been worth a lot more than a rd round pick for a playoff team in fact i would intimate that the offers the sharks got this year for kisio were way greater than just a rd round pick hindsight s nobody expected kisio to have his nd best career year besides without kisio the sharks would have tanked even earlier in the season and gund might have gotten a little more serious about getting joe murphy a guy who definitely would be around years from now when the sharks do make the playoffs what else could be done the gunds offered million for murphy but the oilers wanted prospect s which the sharks declined to give which i think is correct i didn t mean to imply that gund s offer wasn t enough gund s offer was the right but too late in the season m offered in november lets sather buy a replacement for murphy this season and make the playoffs this year m in march doesn t help sather with his immediate objectives doesn t help with long term objectives only a prospect or draft pick does and no way should the sharks do that however getting back to what if games had kisio been traded to chicago last year then the sharks go for october and maybe gund panicks sooner in november and here s another what if twist chicago would have had kisio this season they never go after murphy in the first place because kelly is having his best season bigger guys in chicago so gund has no competition so ferriera sather and keenan all look like geniuses a broken fax machine and ferriera keenan and maybe kingston and maybe even green lose their jobs kind of makes you shiver doesn t it bottomline for every black scenario any of you can concoct for kisio leaving i can concoct an equally bright one if the kisio fiasco was the cause of ferierra s down fall i hope it wasn t because he tried to trade kisio but because he screwed it up nonetheless i m sorry ferierra and kingston are gone and i wish gund would follow and what have the gunds done exactly that caused you to wish that they were gone are you serious let ferierra go fire kingston these last two basically mean that sharks are starting over again in terms of the timetable to capture the cup as i ve stated frequently out expansion teams had the same gm from inception through cup season broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack up my ticket prices from to in two years not that i m going to pay bucks for seats i ll probably next to the virtual folks not tell me my priority not let me sell my priority in order for me to get the free jacket force me to order my tickets for next season before i get to select my section not let me park at the new arena after paying for their privileged parking lot which was sometimes full when i got there for straight years i ve been a loyal ticket holder since day literally in spring of when the team was announced and i m not getting that loyalty returned wirtz treats his fans far better by comparison and pocklington with his cheap tix is the best owner of all go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton i know one isn t suppose to make negative comments on signatures but what did us oiler fans do to you to deserve the stay in edmonton part i d never wish the kings to leave metro la it s too much fun watching the shark s beat them mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something well here in detroit we get to see and hear don cherry quite regularly the detroit area picks up hockey night in canada from cbc ch in windsor where we see don cherry s coaches corner between periods we also get to see don cherry s grapevine just before the game the grapevine is a hockey talk show where don talks to a player or coach about what else hockey it s actually a pretty good show and don isn t as annoying as he is on coaches corner i think this is were don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info a local radio station here in detroit wllz talks to don every tuesday morning personally i ve had my fill of donny he really pisses me off sometimes during the detroit toronto game monday night on cbc don gave high praise to doug gilmour saying he was a two way player and not just a designated goal scorer and that he is probably the best player in the game because of that that s fine and i agree that gilmour is a good two way player but he said the exact same thing about yzerman about a month ago on a local radio talk show what gives it seems like he just has a set speech that he changes when he goes from city to city don cherry i think insert star player name for city that he is in is the best two way player in the league today there have been other times can t remember exactly what he said that he basically changed his opinions to match the audience he was talking to someone here on the net said something about how don criticized mario lemieux but when the time comes for don to broadcast the cup playoffs from the civic center yes i think the pens will make it out of the wales conference don will apologize left and right for his remarks about lemieux in my opinion he is an ass and i won t change my opinion if i m in a different city sorry if this didn t answer your question better but i just had to get this off my chest laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements well dave i would have to disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and i d be happy as long as the oilers stayed in edmonton selfish but true i don t want to see the oilers move no matter who their owner is bart bart splunge uucp or barto nait ab ca
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta s abc affiliate sucks i knew despite the lack of a full game telecast last week it was still too much hockey for atlanta atlanta s abc has declined to pick up any playoff games till may and even when they show the games on may and may they will continue to skip the first half hour of the telecast i know this is still a better situation compared to rest of georgia alabama etc but it is still pretty annoying at least in pittsburgh we had a network preemptionchannel which showed all netwoork shows prempted by the local affiliate i asked them what their problem was i told them that a local rating was not that bad considering it was the first nhl game shown after a long time without much promotion besides their syndicated programming in the afternoon is usually low rated so what did they have to lose by showing nhl playoffs she told me that they had contractual obligations i asked her if golf was shown oin abc would contractual obligations come in the way and how come contractual obligations didn t come in the way of last week s telecast she then couldn t give me a coherent answer also i added that atlanta had one of the highest neutral site game attendances and that the demographics were good i think abc and other networks should begin to tie their high rated programs like roseanne in with thier sports programming i hope that everyone in atlanta who reads this bboard calls wsb and complain bitterlyt about this tell them you will stop watching their news telecasts since they seem to be very unprofessional in handling this situation the lady did not seem to settle on a single reason sometimes the reason is low ratings then another time she says contractual obligations
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens his name is clint malarchuk i m not sure what he does now but i ve heard he s an extra in slasher films brian
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta sportsbars ok i know i look pretty desperate on this bboard i think i have posted or messages already on the issue of nhl telecats over the last few weeks but hey i am pretty desperate what i am interested is not just a sportsbar with multiple screens so thast i can watch the game on one of those silent screens are there any hockey oriented bars in this area or does some patrick division or adams division fan have a satellite dish i don t mind paying an admission fee if necessary
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something for those of you who complain about don cherry and wonder why he is popular the reply is dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale is always promoting this kid from this high school or that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters in relation to our greatest passion which is hockey canadians are very similar to americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans it is football basketball baseball and bowling gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part i would argue gerald that bowman is the first modern coach bowman s canadiens were the first nhl team to have a weight room in the s he is the first coach i have seen that manipulates the press into spreading false game plan rumours during important games listen to the pre game interview will bowman and compare that to what is on the ice i agree bowman is a master of the lineups remember last year in the sc when he benched jagr only to set him free in ot when jagr banged in the winning goal i thought this was trademark bowman and also a sign of a modern coach i am left asking what is a modern coach if not bowman jake
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu yaska eecg toronto edu yaska sankar writes paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl we was robbed no patrick roy is the reason the game was lost and ron hextall is the reason quebec won i don t buy this at all roy was the reason the game was tied and that would not have been the case had dionne kept his cool roy stood on his head for the first minutes of the game when the nords were rushing from end to end kamensky s mini break after the tying goal and the first shot by young in ot were both excellent chances stopped by roy roy outplayed hextall for most of the game but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy s team didn t make full use of their opportunities whoa what you are effectively doing is implying that if a player plays really well he stores up mistakes that can be used at a later time ths is not so roy is the villain as you so succinctly put it because he allowed a very cheap goal if you think roy outplayed hextall perhaps you should get a tape of the game and watch the first minutes of the third period nhl goaltenders make some great saves if they did not they would not be in the nhl in the first place i do not expect any particular goalie to be able to make the great saves all of the time even though they are occasionally required however when it comes to a routine shot like sakic s especially at such a crucial time in a game i don t think there are any legitimate excuses hextall on the other hand had a lot of lucky bounces description of lucky bounces hextall wasn t particularly brilliant on those plays i am not arguing that hextall was brilliant i am arguing is that a relatively weak wrist shot from the outside of the circle shold not result in a goal but it was just the goal the timing stank but against an explosive team like quebec they gave them opportunity too many with a powerplay that was totally unnecessary in a one goal game with less than a minute to go there is no such thing as just the goal i have not defended dionne for taking the penalty either in fact i think it was a boneheaded move but it led to one goal only and montreal had a two goal lead my main concern is the second goal this most certainly was a team loss leclair missed his opportunities as did bellows and brunet dionne took a bad penalty damphousse and lebeau were silent carbonneau and savard were a step behind all night roy gave up the bad goal roy by no means can be singled out for this loss what you say about the skaters is absolutely true but realize that the game was effectively won you could watch any hockey game in fact you could watch any sporting event period and spend hours discussing the what if s w r t missed opportunities they are not important when the final result is decided if i get the time soon i ll watch the game again and email you a list of lucky montreal bounces and a list of quebec offensive screwups montreal was leading with a minute to go the goalie is the last line of defence and i will grant that extra attention is focussed on him sometimes without justification but roy gave up a lousy goal and a team cannot afford such a goal roy looked like a player in an industrial league on sakic s shot and hextall didn t on dionne s goal please who cares of what value is it to justify one lousy play with a totally unrelated lousy play i could do a hextall critique if you d like but if you re going to assess his performance keep in mind that he made the key saves at the key times roy is paid big money because that is his value compared to other goalies and he still is in the top for the record i did not say that roy was not one of the top goaltenders in the league in fact i agree that he is the montreal media is the quickest to heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs they are no better than uninformed fans i assume you are referring to me however i have pointed out that i think the loss can be blamed on roy i have not said he sucks nor do i think i ve made any other derogatory comments if you regard objective and informed fyi observations as derogatory i really can t help you dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres in article r pc sa msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu pure and simple grant fuhr is money he has been awesome in the playoffs especially last night but mogilny has been scoring well and his russian friend kymlev sp has also done well but fuhr is the biggest reason they are winning and the difference between this year s team and previous years bill perry
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all allan sullivan allan cs ualberta ca wrote unfortunately that is the way the league is heading you can t fight so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when the ref isn t looking ulf has brought this to a high level players stuck in the past like neely who prefer fights to cheap shots are at a disadvantage in the new system lets face it a cheap shot like high sticking is a very effective method it is easier to hide from the refs has a better chance of causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way i don t like it but that s the way the league is going by the way there was a rather good hit by ulf in the last penguin devil game managed to hit the nj player in the face with a stick must have been a legal hit after all ulf is a clean player and is allowed to do things like that are there any ex nhl hockey players out there who might care to comment on this and end this ridiculously long discussion tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf crushes valeri zelepukin bill clare clare ssd kodak com wrote that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner and that was the only infraction of this type in the game come on wake up geez he s not the only player who does this sort of thing i think we were kind of lucky the game was not really all that chippy considering the state nj is in about now tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes a whole lot of completely ignorant stuff about pitt give this guy a drug test and some ridalin whale you are at it dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re wash isl ot game in article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes get off espn s back and stop posting articles on this subject there have been to many f n complainers about this game that it s making me sick generally i agree with you however last night espn cut away to baseball tonite which looks like sportscenter tailored to baseball and they cut away at pacific that s quite a contract they have there if espn couldn t deliver they should have had a transistion plan to let sportschannel pick up the slack nonetheless it is ultimately the fault of the us american public that regular season baseball has precedence over playoff hockey in the u s support your team support your game somebody in r s h had an excellent idea that we should write chrysler to thank them for supporting hockey with their ads and that we would consider their products here s an equally excellent idea watch baseball for minutes i know i m asking a lot but that s what spew bags are for write down who is advertising and write them letters complaining that they are supporting baseball to your displeasure and that you won t consider buying their products because of it mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question the goalie to whom you refer is clint malarchuk he was at that time playing with the sabres his team immediately prior to that was the washington capitals while he did recover and continue to play i do not know his present whereabouts
rec.sport.hockey	bernie nicholls what a man just some thoughts i don t usually like to post simply to make fun of a player but this time i couldn t resist during the pens devils game last night second period i think kevin stevens was in the penalty box nicholls punched kjell samuellson in the face then raised his stick like a two handed sword to defend himself all kjell could do at and pounds was laugh and speaking of swedish penguins defensemen ulf is getting a little out of hand lately his cheap shots are getting more frequent and more violent as everybody in the meadowlands except for the officials could see last night he rammed the butt of his stick down one of the devil s throat i ve always supported the argument he does his job by being irritating but he s starting to push it over the edge imho of course holik s chop to barrasso s neck wasn t too sportsmanlike either it seems that he was following the the only way to beat the penguins is to injure them philosophy as my modern drama professor pointed out to me the other day jagr was stoned pretty well tuesday night and last night as well although the seconds he danced around the devils end was pretty exciting matt at uva
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in article apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it hopefully epsn will use the lesson given by the master ted turner the season ted introduced tnt many cable co s refused to put it on saying that gee we get enough old movies miniseries etc on tbs usa amc wgn wor why do we need another one this was in the fall come spring ted fixed their little red wagons good the previous spring nba playoffs wore on tbs now they were on tnt and still are and everyone gets tnt now so espn should put nfl football and baseball on espn and leave hockey on espn and if cable co s play games and drop espn in favor of espn espn should alternate baseball and football between channels every week but do the espn guys collectively have the gonads of the turner guy mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday in article apr julian uwo ca lee gaul csd uwo ca steve lee writes in article c spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin l stamber writes kevin l stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews woops this is rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve if the leaf s play like they did in game one they re going to need these watching that game really hurt cheers i ingo sunee uwaterloo ca the more violent the body iwweigel descartes uwaterloo ca contact of the sports you ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo ca watch the lower your class iwweigele electrical watstar uwaterloo ca paul fussell if the university of waterloo had on opinion this probably wouldn t be it
rec.sport.hockey	espn cares less about hockey espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself anyway after i calmed down after i realized that they were not going to show overtime of the caps isles game i thought to myself i knew that this was going to happen in fact i remerbed myself praying that at least they would keep even the boring devils game overall i think espn does not care if they show hockey or not and i firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans ie because of contract obligations screw you espn praise be to all hockey fans who put up with this shit go hawks jb
rec.sport.hockey	montreal canadiens are there any montreal canadiens fans out there who can let me the radio station s which are playing the playoff series including short wave radio frequencies lewisburg pa home of bucknell university is definitely not a hockey town please send responses to malinich bucknell edu thanks
rec.sport.hockey	re wjr in boston in the boston area you can hear the rangers on wfan and the devils on wabc the whalers on wtic and the red wings on wjr this of course is in addition to the bruins who are currently on weei but may move to whdh because the fools at weei are owned by the celtics and thus will show them over the bruins every time there is a conflict you can also get wbal baltimore but i don t think they have hockey btw i once got a station from indiana that had fort wayne comets games
rec.sport.hockey	re espn sucks ot or baseball guess which in article c tc aty ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca writes showing a meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than seconds left on the clock what actually happened after the pens game i turned to espn and the game was nearly at the end of regular then the phone rang i turened off the tv later when i turned it back on the indians were on then a little later the hockey games was on again then the baseball game what was actually on not that it matters any more but some hockey was in deed on
rec.sport.hockey	re peter forsberg in article cvincent poolman ucs mun ca cvincent morgan ucs mun ca carl vincent writes in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat says can some on e give me some stats on forsrg in the world championships if sao mail to ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada here are the top point getters in the world jr hockey championships g a p forsberg swe i am sooo glad i have both these guys on my naslund swe rotisserrie team but then again w mario vyborny cze slo bure gretzky neely p turgeon damphousse sundstrom swe lebeau and juneau dunno how much time lehtinen fin they ll get
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit valerie s hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu wrote in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu droopy writes in fact the tradition has been passed down to their affiliate in adirondack in gm of last yr s finals an legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right at the feet of ref lance roberts it may have been passed to toronto but i ve even seen an octopus at the aud last year s bruins sabres game i knew all about the detroit version but seeing at the aud was a bit puzzling i don t think it s puzzling a bit it s called unoriginality no i m not bitter bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoffs results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor la leads was que leads det leads cal new jersey devils pittsburgh penguins leads series st period pit mceachern francis taglianetti pit m lemieux u samuelsson barrasso sh nd period pit tocchet k stevens u samuelsson pit jagr francis ramsey pit k stevens francis murphy pp pit mceachern daniels mullen rd period pit mullen francis barrasso powerplay opportunities devils of penguins of shots on goal devils penguins new jersey devils terreri shots saves billington third shots saves pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves att new york islanders series tied washington capitals st period nyi turgeon king thomas nd period was hunter johansson miller nyi turgeon thomas vaske was hunter johansson carpenter pp rd period nyi hogue was khristich cavallini bondra nyi ferraro flatley hogue was hunter johansson khristich pp overtime none overtime nyi mullen ferraro flatley powerplay opportunities islanders of capitals of shots on goal islanders capitals new york islanders healy shots saves washington capitals tabaracci shots saves att montreal canadiens quebec nordiques leads series st period que leschyshyn kamensky sakic pp que young lapointe que young lapointe duchesne nd period none rd period mon bellows odelein que lapointe ricci en powerplay opportunities canadiens of nordiques of shots on goal canadiens nordiques montreal canadiens roy shots saves quebec nordiques hextall shots saves att buffalo sabres leads series boston bruins st period buf presley sh buf wood houlder b sweeney pp nd period buf mogilny lafontaine rd period buf hawerchuk carney smehlik pp powerplay opportunities sabres of bruins of shots on goal sabres bruins buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves boston bruins moog shots saves blue second shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re espn cares less about hockey jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself i hope this makes you feel better but the overtime between the isles and the caps was great hang in there
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes and cherbayev was initially supposed to play for the russian wc team anybody know what happened there yeah they finally came to agreement on a contract as soon as the ink was dry he suddenly decided kansas city was a neat place to be ergo the want to play for the national team was a bargaining chip chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re area code for edmonton alberta canada believe it or not we do have phone books but the current information does not include an area code for edmonton alberta i would not be so hostile towards others for asking simple questions i would rather appear stupid than open my moutha nd remove all doubt mark twain if you assult someone you get years in hockey minutes is this a great sport or what kevin d frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres can the sabres win two more games against the bruins i think game three in buffalo will be the most important of the series if the sabres lose that game the party will be over it will be hello next year the key for the remaining games in the series will be whether fuhr can keep up his brillliant goaltending and if mogilny can continue skate by the bruins he has shown demonstrated excellent speed finally the sabres appear to have shown up for the post season sabres bills fan
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns if i were pat burns i d throw in the towel the wings dominated every aspect of the game trying to mix up the lines is a dead end murray has too many combinations to counter with my prediction is wings in mark let s go wings
rec.sport.hockey	grant fuhr leads sabres buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i can see the huge smile on gerald s face after fuhr s performance a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article apr julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca andrew kirk writes back to hockey the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit a real team like toronto would never be moved well if shit means going to the stanley cup finals a couple years ago i d rather be shit than a leaf fan go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something i asked him and don cherry denies being roger maynard and he denies any knowledge of usenet he did concede that roger is the best two way poster on the net today his defense is as good as his offence
rec.sport.hockey	re area code for edmonton alberta canada in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu kevin d frank writes i m trying to get ahold of the directory assistance operator in edmonton but i need the area code to do so if you know it please e mail me directly as i have little time to scan through all the posts much appreciated geez i didn t realize things were so bad at ohio state that they can t afford phone books or even operators this is probably clinton s fault isn t it paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	cbc canadian for espn hooray i hear on tsn that the jets have won a game selanne getting a hat trick of course here in god s country read ontario i couldn t see that game nor any other in the van wpg series so far because our beloved cbc figures no one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve so far on monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked up winnipeg vancouver they didn t tonight you guessed it toronto detroit the news not the end of the jets game then calgary la so if it s hockey night in canada why can t this ontarian see one of the two series with two canadian teams is this too much to ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	jets canucks jets hold on win teemu selanne had goals keith tkachuk had one and luciano borsato scored a rare jets shorthanded goal as the jets held on to beat the canucks and close the series to trevor linden and pavel bure had two goals each for the canucks in a losing cause selanne came out of a two game goal scoring slump scoring two powerplay goals and one on a nice breakaway pass from darrin shannon hard work paid off tonight for the jets and if the jets continue to exhibit this strong work effort they can make a series of it i woofed last year when we were up i ain t going to do that again i ll have to be quietly happy with a solid performance daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack up my ticket prices from to in two years not that i m going to pay bucks for seats i ll probably next to the virtual folks not tell me my priority not let me sell my priority in order for me to get the free jacket force me to order my tickets for next season before i get to select my section not let me park at the new arena after paying for their grrrr let s start a whole nother topic on show bad the sharks are doing on these things i swear that all of my partial plan games were televised i know i m exaggerating but in order the new ticket prices suck wait till people try to park at games next year public transit yeah right i d love to take caltrain for hours to see a hour game shelling out hundreds of dollars for partial season plans for two years doesnt mean anything to the sharks as i get to pick my seats after the dead rise from their graves to claim their seats frank frank giraffe fgiraffe well sf ca us apple pacbell ucbvax well fgiraffe as the noose of narco militarism tightens round our necks we worry about burning flags and pee in jars at work to keep our jobs jello biafra
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i he s a canadian thing former coach of the boston bruins and colorado rockies from the summaries that get posted i gather that his ongoing beef this year has been the conventional wisdom that canadian hockey is doomed to be second or third rate behind the perceived emergence of the u s and european programs know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i after he left the rockies he got a job with cbc s hockey night in canada and hasn t looked back since actually he did work for cbc at least on playoff season after the rockies were eliminated read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an i d say it s a combination of flame bait and serious journalism the closest thing you ll find to cherry in the u s is stan fischler a self described hockey maven the similarities are that they both say things that get people upset the difference is that cherry knows the game and fischler doesn t ass let me know maybe i m missing something don s a character if he were completely rational and noncontroversial he wouldn t have a job by some definitions he could be called an ass but then some people feel the same about mike lang another character that i wish would get wider exposure only one national telecast last year mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update current votes for favorite goalie masks pts st pts nd pt rd player team pts votes ed belfour chicago andy moog boston curtis joseph st louis brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers grant fuhr buffalo mike richter ny rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf sd ihl tommy soderstrom phil ray leblanc usa artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det sean burke nj rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi toy espo gilles gratton rod stauber la gump worsley pat jablonski tb grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi can someone please tell me which teams the play ed for thanks go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains st as for more captain trivia the next edmonton st catain was lee fogilin who was later traded to st the buffalo sabres after him was wayne gretzky st who w traded to l a then came kevin low who st nly this year was traded to the n y rangers wasn t mark messier captain of the oilers before kevin lowe but of course he was traded as well so your point of every oilers captain being traded is still true stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
rec.sport.hockey	espn really sucks big time so all us hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where we stand espn delays the martinsville race by a day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead of the overtime of a nhl playoff game gimme a break guys does anyone know why this race is tape delay especially until monday is this the weekend for the nfl draft if so postponing the race for a day is a real slap in the face for racing fans i m afraid you re right as usual as i recall they ve been doing this ever since they started covering the draft live i wish they could work out some kind of a deal with somebody else such as tnn to get the race on live but i guess espn isn t much into sharing it also clarifies where auto racing stands on their priority list as if we didn t already know charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu or on leave at the university of iowa cdash cs uiowa edu
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article apr julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca andrew kirk writes losers like us you are the fucking moron who has never heard of the western business school or the university of western ontario for that matter why don t you pull your head out of your asshole and smell something other than shit for once so you can look on a map to see where uwo is back to hockey the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit a real team like toronto would never be moved not only have i not heard of the western business school or the university of western ontario i ve never even wondered if there was a western ontario and judging by the quality of the posts coming from there i m still not sure that the place exists perhaps i should be impressed though since it appears that grade school children in that area have access to the internet rick
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something from his topps rookie year as coach card for the past couple of seasons don has been the highly successful coach of the rochester americans of the ahl but he is getting his first shot at an nhl job with the bruins named coach of the year in the ahl the last two years and he aims to make the bruins a rough team again as they were a couple of years back although he played seasons of professional hockey don never played a regular season nhl game he did appear in one playoff game for boston in don s brother dick played two seasons in the nhl with boston and philadelphia mark mckinzie listen if they re going to buy lunch boxes mckinzie math wisc edu they might as well buy david cassidy lunch boxes uw dept of mathematics madison wi david cassidy
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final standings here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations to this year s winner dave wessels of victoria b c who parlayed his initial points into points thanks to all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever i hope to hear from you all again this september for the th annual draft it has been my pleasure running the draft and i hope you all had fun andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels gilles carmel bob hill seppo kemppainen the awesome oilers hillside raiders mak the knife paranjape jan stein this years model tapio repo rangers of destiny the underachievers frank s big fish go flames on thin ice mopar muscle men littlest giants lindros losers die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta boomer s boys delaware wombats general accounting office migods menschen wellsy s buttheads dec nh fife flyers rocky mountain high dave snell fluide glacial gerald olchowy gaoler smegheads neural netters the young and the skateless sam his dogs artic storm youngbucs soft swedes simmonac milton keynes kings jeff horvath legion of hoth le fleur de lys yan the man loke kuehn crushers hamster from hoboken streaks brian bergman the finnish force grant marven ice legion goaldingers t c overachievers randy coulman bozrah bruins skriko wolves buffalo soldiers houdini s magicians steven and mark dream team real bad toe jam rec sport hockey choices bemybaby lamp lighters lippe phil and kev s karma dudes doug bowles bloom county all stars tom indianapolis bennies bruins smithw aik exiles iowa hockeyes frank worthless the great pumpkin non shooting seamen invisible inc brad gibson cougarmania john zupancic david wong garryola gary bergman fan club staffan axelsson kortelaisen kovat chocolate rockets plp fools the kamucks chubby checkers kodiaks derrill s dastardly dozen ken decruyenaere fisher dirtbags neil younger bsc oranienburg no namers arsenal maple leafs the campi machine mombasa mosquitos bjoern leaguen ellis islanders zachmans wingers king suke larry votenooct bloodgamers het schot is hard hurricane andrew dirty white socks wormtown woosbags bruce s rented mules oklahoma stormchasers teem kanada edelweiss frank s follies pond slime spuds psv dartmouth kokudo keikaku bunnies blue talon stanford ice hawks timo ojala mark sanders aye carumba dirty rotten puckers garys team cluster buster haral apricot fuzzfaces gary bill pens dynasty seattle pftb nesbitt the lost poots le groupe mi arctic circles late night with david letterman wembley lostweekenders wild hearted sons dree hobbs closet boy s boys scott glenn go bruins andy y f wong book em danno s bushbabies mckees rocks rockers boutch team gold goddess of fermentation convex stars flying kiwis einstein s rock band dr joel fleishman tim rogers my team tap sundogs buttered waffles go habs go princeton canucks hubert s hockey homeboys satan s choice bob s blues les nordiques pierre mailhot furleys furies slap shot marco hunters collectors the dreamers san jose mahi mahi jeff nimeroff east city jokers the leafs rule darse billings flowers daryl turner lana inc riding the pine spinal tap stimpy adg zeta chappel s chumps big bad bruins enforcers mike mac cormack sydney ns can jimparker bulldogs yellow plague jeff bachovchin absolut lehigh voyageurs republican dirty tricksters ninja turtles dr d and the s o d henry s bar b q bunch of misfits robyns team cobra s killers cherry bombers kuta papercuts great expectations acadien darman s dragons team melville killer apes kaufbeuren icebreakers jayson s kinky pucks roger smith firebirds ikea wholesale umpire life those st few weeks hurt outlaws hurricane frack attack believe it or dont todd s turkeys thundering herd knee injuries the club fred mckim crazy euros creeping death ryan s renegades pig vomit ice strykers dayton bomber cdn stuck in alabama fighting geordies cafall and crew ship s way zipper heads chris of death banko s beer rangers swillbellies oz laubsters ii ninja bunnies great scott joliet inmates ny flames sandy s sabres widefield white wolves florida tech burgh team the ice holes south carolina tiger paws daves team mudville kings redliners roadrunners for xtc leos blue chips new jersey rob pat phillips stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues up for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final point totals here are the final point totals for players chosen in the usenet hockey draft note that only players scored more than points the minimum cost although different players were chosen andrew points team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne nyi pierre turgeon buf alexander mogilny tor doug gilmour la luc robitaille phi mark recchi que mats sundin pit kevin stevens van pavel bure pit rick tocchet chi jeremy roenick stl craig janney que joe sakic bos joe juneau stl brett hull cgy theoren fleury pit ron francis tor dave andreychuk mtl vincent damphousse det dino ciccarelli wpg phil housley buf dale hawerchuk stl brendan shanahan mtl kirk muller pit jaromir jagr min mike modano nyr mark messier hfd geoff sanderson mtl brian bellows cgy robert reichel la jari kurri nyi steve thomas det sergei fedorov det paul coffey tb brian bradley phi rod brind amour wsh peter bondra pit larry murphy hfd andrew cassels van cliff ronning wsh mike ridley la tony granato que steve duchesne hfd pat verbeek bos ray bourque cgy gary suter nj claude lemieux mtl stephan lebeau nj alexander semak wsh kevin hatcher min russ courtnall wsh dale hunter que mike ricci sj kelly kisio stl jeff brown que owen nolan van murray craven van geoff courtnall nyr tony amonte nyi derek king min dave gagner phi eric lindros cgy joe nieuwendyk nyi benoit hogue tor nikolai borschevsky wsh michal pivonka min ulf dahlen la jimmy carson nj stephane richer chi chris chelios stl nelson emerson wpg alexei zhamnov bos dmitri kvartalnov van trevor linden wpg thomas steen van petr nedved pit joe mullen chi steve larmer la mike donnelly que andrei kovalenko nyr mike gartner wsh dmitri khristich wsh al iafrate det ray sheppard sj johan garpenlov tor glenn anderson hfd zarley zalapski la wayne gretzky nyr adam graves nj valeri zelepukin ott norm maciver phi kevin dineen det steve chiasson det paul ysebaert phi garry galley pit shawn mceachern mtl mike keane wpg darrin shannon nyi pat flatley nj bernie nicholls que scott young la rob blake phi brent fedyk chi steve smith wsh pat elynuik nj scott stevens cgy sergei makarov wpg fredrik olausson van greg adams tb john tucker chi christian ruuttu chi brent sutter cgy al macinnis nyr sergei nemchinov hfd terry yake nyr darren turcotte nyi vladimir malakhov van dixon ward la tomas sandstrom bos stephen leach hfd patrick poulin wpg keith tkachuk nyi jeff norton mtl denis savard tor john cullen wsh sylvain cote nyr ed olczyk stl kevin miller bos dave poulin van anatoli semenov phi pelle eklund wpg evgeny davydov mtl gilbert dionne nj john maclean que martin rucinsky la alexei zhitnik edm petr klima edm doug weight edm shayne corson edm craig simpson wsh kelly miller edm dave manson chi michel goulet mtl mathieu schneider det bob probert cgy paul ranheim ott sylvain turgeon min mark tinordi ott bob kudelski det niklas lidstrom ott brad shaw edm todd elik bos vladimir ruzicka min mike mcphee nyr esa tikkanen tor dave ellett nj peter stastny la corey millen nj bobby holik buf yuri khmylev tb adam creighton tor wendel clark van sergio momesso nyr alexei kovalev tor rob pearson que valery kamensky chi dirk graham nyr brian leetch edm zdeno ciger tor peter zezel bos ted donato min neal broten hfd mikael nylander phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau edm scott mellanby det keith primeau buf wayne presley nyi brian mullen phi dmitri yushkevich mtl gary leeman buf richard smehlik bos steve heinze tor dmitri mironov chi brian noonan wsh bob carpenter sj pat falloon stl igor korolev tb mikael andersson nyi ray ferraro buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb nyr james patrick mtl benoit brunet nyi scott lachance tor bill berg edm martin gelinas wpg sergei bautin edm kevin todd nyi david volek nyi darius kasparaitis tb roman hamrlik min brent gilchrist nyr phil bourque det jim hiller phi andrei lomakin hfd yvon corriveau buf donald audette bos cam neely chi joe murphy sj mark pederson pit martin straka nyr peter andersson nj janne ojanen ott tomas jelinek min bobby smith tb steve kasper sj ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk tor joe sacco que mikhail tatarinov sj peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray min brian propp hfd tim kerr wsh reggie savage la robert lang stl vitali prokhorov det viacheslav kozlov edm shaun van allen bos jozef stumpel min dan quinn pit bryan fogarty mtl olav petrov tb stan drulia nj claude vilgrain wsh jason woolley que peter forsberg wsh brian sakic wsh randy burridge mtl patrick kjellberg ott alexei yashin edm dean mcammond cgy cory stillman tb brent gretzky buf jason dawe van igor larionov chi sergei krivokrasov andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re german audience is lunatic in article apr ousrvr oulu fi golf phoenix oulu fi jouko kylmaoja writes i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went it was not just those penalties most of all it was the penalty the referee didn t call on the czechs right before their first goal grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone don t you think it s quite silly to call it a nazi attitude when some people throw coins on the ice hey i don t approve the behavior of these guys especially not in a wc game but i can t see any reason for using the word nazi in this connection but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer soccer hooligans are not just a german problem remember the world cup in italy again there s a big difference between throwing coins and smashing shop windows or fighting with other so called fans who come to a wc just to see if the dutch or the english or the germans are the best bruisers which other sports are you talking about i don t think soccer is every possible sport it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do how many germans do you know do you think out of is most of them if you hear about some white policemen beating a black man in the us what do you think about the americans most of them like beating blacks jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi robert
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article c ue g j acsu buffalo edu v nnc ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mr bungle writes i d like to see some playoff games since i m stuck in buffalo at ub but i think boston isn t giving up so easy no boston probably won t go down easy but if the sabres hadn t won game one buffalo would have been out in four and what problem are you having with playoff games here in buffalo there s the sabres bruins quebec montreal and whatever espn and abc show and on opposite nights there s toronto detroit and whatever espn abc shows more hockey than a good chunk of north america either side of the border it s wonderful and there are thousands of folks who d kill to be in your shoes coverage wise valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re final regular season individual goalie stats what about including points probably no goals at least against opponents but there have been several assists given ian neath there are four kinds of people in this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics u eco
rec.sport.hockey	canucks score help i m stuck here at a computer in new jersey and have no access to a radio or tv could someone kindly post the score of the canucks jets game thanks in advance mark
rec.sport.hockey	camera work on televised games is it just me or is the camera work on some of these games really sad i can t remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked in the corner while the puck was being fired on goal in fact i think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other in the corner now the last time i watched a football game they didn t show the lineman going at it while the running back turned the corner for a touchdown is it just me greg
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings in article r e d nd apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes dody wood season st acquired rd round pick in entry draft grade i d d although perhaps i shouldn t give a grade at all i have been accused of knocking on wood too much you nah he was seriously unimpressive even as a tough guy his rep however as few games as he had in a season that was at that point meaningless i hate to judge the talent too quickly butn in dody s case i m tempted to make an exception but i won t wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl however i was extremely surprised when he was drafted especially in the third round he certainly didn t look like nhl material paul brownlow visualize data i o corp redmond wa whirled paul data io com peas
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong rob niedermayer is a forward center i think with the whl medicine hat tigers his brother scott is a defenseman now with the nj devils paul brownlow visualize data i o corp redmond wa whirled paul data io com peas
rec.sport.hockey	espn f ck up okay here s some gripe ing griping whatever i live in santa barbara for reference i think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind i didn t mind that much i watched the game hockey is much better than no hockey during the game their were no video highlights from the patrick division what the hell was going on at least they should show video highlights of the other games especially the nyi caps game that was so close my father lives in bowling green kentucky bumbf ck egypt got to watch the pens game on espn i just don t get it the biggest problem is that buffalo or boston fans who didn t want to see the pittsburgh new jersey game will turn on their tvs on thursday and see the pittsburgh new jersey game instead of the buffalo boston game at least in my case i just had to wait more days to see my game if i were a big boston or buffalo fan and i missed the game on tuesday due to false advertising on the part of espn i d be mad as hell oh well hopefully we ll get better coverage next year or something matt coohill p s the announcers for the buffalo boston were the worst that i have ever heard as far emotion goes they had the enthusiasm of droopy dog i hope for better on thursday
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale bart splunge uucp barton oleksy writes yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements well dave i would have to disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and i d be happy as long as the oilers stayed in edmonton selfish but true i don t want to see the oilers move no matter who their owner is bart bart splunge uucp or barto nait ab ca i too am of the same sentiment bart but realistically this town doesn t want to pay for quality player and hence we are loosing these people left right and center labour is also responsible for their boycott pocklington movement i would like the oilers to stay but realistically given this situation it s bye bye oilers dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf crushes valeri zelepukin in article c xx g newsserver pixel kodak com clare ssd kodak com bill clare writes that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner nah cherry will only spew if ulf was nailing a good canadian boy what an idiot if this is the heart and soul of canadian patriotism then someone needs a new hobby dr d the devils advocate drinkin women guns don t mix v p nk ubvms cc buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played april nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor la was que leads det leads cal tied detroit red wings lead series toronto maple leafs dave andreychuk scored his first two playoff goals for toronto and felix potvin stopped of red wing shots as the maple leafs won their first win in the series first period toronto andreychuk foligno gilmour toronto andreychuk gilmour second period detroit fedorov coffey sheppard pp third period toronto clark gilmour mironov pp toronto pearson clark cullen detroit chiasson konstantinov fedorov shots on goal detroit toronto power play opportunities detroit of toronto of goalies detroit cheveldae shots saves toronto potvin a referee mark faucette linesmen kevin collins brian murphy chicago blackhawks st louis blues lead series curtis joseph blanked the blackhawks for the second straight game and brett hull scored a goal and added an assist to lead the blues to a series lead chicago hasn t scored in of play since brian noonan s hat trick goal in game first period st louis janney hull brown pp second period st louis hull miller third period st louis emerson felsner shanahan shots on goal chicago st louis power play opportunities chicago of st louis of goalies chicago belfour shots saves st louis joseph a referee dan marouelli linesmen randy mitton shane heyer vancouver canucks lead series winnipeg jets teemu selanne broke out of his mini slump with a hat trick including the game winner to lead the jets to a victory trevor linden and pavel bure each scored twice for the losing canucks first period winnipeg tkachuk housley winnipeg selanne housley shannon pp vancouver bure winnipeg selanne shannon housley pp second period vancouver linden ronning lumme vancouver linden adams slegr pp third period winnipeg borsato steen sh winnipeg selanne shannon vancouver bure babych lidster shots on goal vancouver winnipeg power play opportunities vancouver of winnipeg of goalies vancouver mclean shots saves winnipeg essensa a referee kerry fraser linesmen gord broseker dan schachte calgary flames lead series los angeles kings boxscore tomorrow saturday april washington at ny islanders ny islanders lead series pm est boston at buffalo buffalo leads series pm est quebec at montreal quebec leads series pm est sunday april pittsburgh at new jersey pittsburgh leads series pm est chicago at st louis st louis leads series pm est calgary at los angeles calgary leads series pm est detroit at toronto detroit leads series pm est vancouver at winnipeg vancouver leads series pm est jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar says it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn it was a classy move but it looks like espn is going to devote most of the coverage to the pens on tuesday night they continued to broadcast the pen devil game even though pittsburgh had the game well in control granted they did show some bonus coverage of the caps and isles but they cut away from the close game which went into double ot to update us on the fifth goal of the rout thursday was a good game even if it was the second straight game between the pens and devils imho they should program some variety into the telecasts yes i know the game shown on saturday is between the b s and sabres probably throwing a bone to us bruin fans and what about the cambell conference i d like to see a game in the norris or smythe why not have back to back nights of national hockey night just a thought ryan a l l e z l e s b l u e s
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff leaders with penalty mins as of april player team gp g a pts pim m lemieux pit francis pit oates bos yzerman det coffey det d hunter was mogilny buf thomas nyi lapointe que johansson was carson la brown stl fleury cal g courtnall van flatley nyi macinnis cal ferraro nyi mceachern pit neely bos turgeon nyi bellows mon jagr pit khmylev buf khristich was hawerchuk buf hogue nyi juneau bos k stevens pit l murphy pit lafontaine buf ramsey pit smehlik buf noonan chi gilmour tor hull stl otto cal reichel cal bure van drake det linden van nieuwendyk cal roberts cal young que b sweeney buf s stevens nj tocchet pit carpenter was j mullen pit ronning van suter cal yawney cal adams van chiasson det craven van cullen tor dahlquist cal king win racine det rychel la shanahan stl sheppard det sydor la barnes win emerson stl gill tor granato la gretzky la housley win janney stl king nyi kozlov det sandstrom la shuchuk la vaske nyi damphousse mon elynuik was guerin nj hannan buf holik nj muller mon sakic que semak nj sundin que taglianetti pit tipett pit barasso pit bondra was carney buf cavallini was desjardins mon duchesne que niedermayer nj ricci que ridley was u samuelsson pit blake la borschevsky tor zelepukin nj b mullen nyi burr det domi win fedorov det felsner stl howe det huddy la kurri la lefebvre tor lidstrom det lowry stl mcsorley la millen la mironov tor numminen win paslawski cal steen win ysebaert det anderson tor berube cal chelios chi ciccarelli det clark tor dahl cal dipietro mon donnelly la ellett tor gallant det k brown chi kennedy det larmer chi matteau chi mclean van mcrae stl murzyn van musil cal pearson tor primeau det probert det ranheim cal robitaille la roenick chi selanne win shannon win skrudland cal sutter chi taylor la zhitnik la barr nj bourque bos burridge was dionne mon heinze bos leschyshyn que presley buf rucinsky que smolinski bos wood buf brunet mon daniels pit donato bos driver nj gusarov que houlder buf k samuelsson pit kamensky que krygier was loney pit may was miller was odelein mon pivonka was shaw bos straka pit belanger mon chorske nj druce win eagles win errey buf ewen mon foligno tor goulet chi grimson chi hughes bos kovalenko que leeman mon mcllwain tor osbourne tor richer nj roberge mon schneider mon watters la weimer bos andreychuk tor ashton cal babych van baron stl bassen stl baumgartner tor bautin win belfour chi berg tor billington nj blue bos borsato win bozon stl butcher stl cheveldae det conacher la corkum buf diduck van dirk van erickson win essensa win gilbert chi graham chi hardy la hedican stl hrudey la j lemieux chi johansson cal joseph stl kasatonov nj kennedy win konstantinov det krushelnyski tor lidster van lumme van macoun tor marchment chi miller stl momesso van moog bos muni chi murphy chi murray chi nedved van olausson win pearson que potvin tor quintal stl ramage mon ri sutter stl rouse tor russell chi ruuttu chi s richer bos s smith chi sandlak van semenov van stern cal t hunter van t sweeney bos terreri nj tkachuk win ulanov win valk van vernon cal wilson stl zezel tor zhamnov win zombo stl albelin nj anderson was audette buf bodger buf brisebois mon c lemieux nj carbonneau mon cavallini que cote was d sweeney bos daigneault mon dalgarno nyi daneyko nj douris bos fetisov nj finn que fitzgerald nyi foote que fuhr buf g roberts bos haller mon hatcher was healy nyi hextall que hough que iafrate was jennings pit jones was kasparaitis nyi keane mon kimble bos krupp nyi kvartalnov bos leclair mon leach bos lebeau mon ledyard buf loiselle nyi maclean nj malakov nyi may buf mckay nj nicholls nj nolan que norton nyi patterson buf pilon nyi poulin bos roy mon savard mon simon que stapleton pit stastny nj sutton buf t green nyi tabaracci was vukota nyi wesley bos wolanin que maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i ve been a loyal ticket holder since day literally in spring of when the team was announced and i m not getting that loyalty returned well so are we and we see it completely different than you guess it s a matter of perspective chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	blues shutout hawks again lead series blues shutout hawks again lead series it was a great atmosphere last night at the st louis arena as joseph and the blues shutout the hawks for the second consecutive game people were cheering the blues long before face off time and they kept going for the entire game my friends and i went out celebrating until the early morning hours with some of the players here s a game summary from the st louis post disptach enjoy by dave luecking of the post dispatch staff at p m friday night the arena crowd of paid homage to blues goalie curtis joseph the fans began bowing their arms extended taking the the lead from a fan who held a sign that read only god saves more than joseph it was a fitting tribute to joseph who has brought the blues to the verge of a surprising sweep joseph recorded his second successive shutout friday blanking the blackhawks in game of the norris division semifinals and giving the blues a lead in the best of seven series the blackhawks haven t scored against joseph since the mark of the second period of game joseph has shut out the blackhawks for minutes seconds a blues record jacques plante held the previous record of set in the first round of the playoffs against the philadelphia flyers one of only two series the blues have sweeped in their history the blues can wrap up their first sweep since with a victory in game a nationally televised game that begins at noon sunday the blues have had only two sweeps in franchise history both in when they swept philadelphia and los angeles en route to the stanley cup finals the shutout friday was easier than on wednesday in game when joseph had to make saves this time the blues held the shots down to and the blackhawks couldn t touch joseph well they touched joseph numerous times shoving him and pushing him at every opportunity to try to get him off his game but joseph and the blues were unfazed dishing out their own punishment along the way the blues grinders bob bassen rich sutter kevin miller and dave lowry wore down the blackhawks taking the visitors from chicago off their game the grinders set the stage for the glamour boys the gifted playmakers and scorers who made the most of their opportunities craig janney brett hull and nelson emerson scored getting one goal in each period hull assisted on janney s first period power play goal after two unwise chicago penalties checker miller set up hull s goal in the second period and rookie denny felsner assisted for emerson who scored at of the final period blues fans jumped to their feet in celebration of that goal and began yelling sweep sweep sweep they also taunted chicago goalie ed belfour bell four bell four they also chanted na na na na hey hey good bye such talk is a tad premature there s still one game left but the blues are on a roll they have the blackhawks on their heels the blues set the tone early on friday with two crunching hits in the first minute of play rich sutter leveled bryan marchment and brendan shanahan dumped steve smith at center ice chicago tried to retaliate but troy murray s decision to run into joseph backfired referee dan marouelli gave him a roughing penalty the blues didn t get a shot on goal on the power play and they survived a scare after chicago killed the penalty when rick zombo gave the puck away to steve larmer joseph stopped larmer s shot and everything else chicago threw at him in the first period the hawks ignored the scouting report on joseph about shooting high and continued to shoot low where joseph s butterfly style is deadly rookie bret hedican picked up three consecutive penalties midway through the period two for hooking and one for holding but chicago got only two shots on goal as many as miller the blues penalty killer twice stole the puck and just missed on good scoring chances against belfour marouelli began calling penalties on the blackhawks to even things up he caught brent sutter hooking shanahan four seconds after hedican s third penalty he called marchment for elbowing janney along the boards at and gave the blues a two man advantage later when christian ruuttu slashed shanahan the blues worked around the puck on the ensuing power play and hull got it where he likes it in the high slot hull s shot hit belfour s right shoulder and the puck bounced precariously close to the goal line belfour dived back to cover but the puck squirted loose to janney who poked it into the net at for his first goal of the playoffs the blues continued their relentless hitting as the period ended and the blackhawks lost their composure joe murphy tripped ron wilson with two seconds remaining in the period and after time had expired smith upset the blues by shooting the puck into the blues bench chris chelios made a move toward joseph as the teams left the ice and marouelli slapped him with a minute misconduct chicago survived the blues power play but the loss of chelios hurt he didn t return until the midway point of the period and within three minutes of his return hull had increased the blues lead to deflecting in miller s crisp pass try as they might the blackhawks couldn t get to joseph who stopped everything they could throw at him he stopped shots in the second period and more in the third chicago also hit the goalpost twice emerson s goal put the game away he went hard to the net and redirected felsner s pass a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in article r l fc usenet ins cwru edu mac po cwru edu michael a cornell writes the usa today says late this year the question is will hockey be moved to espn permenantly or will it be where they have a game of the week on espn and have a bunch of other games on espn yes and no espn will be launched as early in september cap cities are currently working with cable companies to ensure a good start up base needed for a launch for any brand new cable service the problem espn faces is the tci cablevision connection in the merger of their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try to wrestle away nhl from espn in the off season also tci and cablevision have control a large number of cable systems around the country with a total of million subscribers tci cablevision will do their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl s value will suddenly skyrocket in this cable war between prime sc and espn nhl is more vital to the survival of a regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have no national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr mtroyal ab ca writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the season this was during the off season though there s countless examples of captains being traded i m sure yeah i think that the flames and the flyers traded captains once mel bridgeman for brad marsh craig
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes the problem espn faces is the tci cablevision connection in the merger of their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try to wrestle away nhl from espn in the off season also tci and cablevision have control a large number of cable systems around the country with a total of million subscribers tci cablevision will do their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl s value will suddenly skyrocket in this cable war between prime sc and espn nhl is more vital to the survival of a regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have no national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams note that this ominous prospect is fueled by the fact that various sc and prime outlets are wholly or partly owned by local nhl owners when if cablevision vp chuck dolan s purchase of the islanders goes through the islanders will be back solidly in the scny fold their original owners were and they ve remained due to a lucrative tv contract the flyer snyders own the philadelphia sc as well as the prism pay channel there are six teams affiliated with regional sc s another half dozen affiliated with prime outlets and other locals like hts and nesn who have barter arrangements with all this cross ownership i was surprised that espn got the deal this season gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	leafs revenge tonight will see the toronto maple leafs as some have guessed come out hitting the buds will grind detroit into the ground and walk away with home ice advantage for the remainder of the series which given a shift to toronto will not last long keep in mind this is only a predicition wendall will have to get into the game however otherwise probert will dominate on the physical front
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl playoff results for games played april in article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nyi leads mon tor la was que leads det leads cal tied o k people so it s not tied i meant leads shoot me if you must jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star game roster someone asked about the rosters for the college hockey senior all star shrine game held in orono maine earlier this month west derek plante minn duluth west mvp of the game greg johnson n dakota bryan smolinski mich st fred knipscheer st cloud state chris campbell wisconsin superior glenn lang uw superior chris bergeron miami joe cook miami jamie erb bemidiji brett harkins bowling green david roberts michigan todd trettier uw stevens point john young mich tech brett hauer minn duluth pat neaton michigan barry richter wisconsin mike smith lssu chris valicevic st mary s shaun gravistin ak anchorage goalie tom newman minnesota bryan schoen denver ron mason mich st coach steve nelson uw superior jim knapp minn duluth east jack duffy yale chris foy n eastern scott meehan mass lowell aaron miller vermont kevin o sullivan bu chris potter connecticut ray alcindor middlebury greg carvel st lawrence bob cowan providence steve dubinksy clarkson dan gravelle merrimack ryan hughes cornell mark kauffman yale matt mallgrave harvard chris mcgee babson scott mcnair rit jim montgomery maine david sacco bu chris rogles clarkson goalie east s mvp of the game garth snow maine grant wood hamilton brian durocher brown coach shawn walsh maine bruce marshalll connecticut these are the original rosters there may have been a few changes for the actual game guys not being able to participate or whatever bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results thurs fri ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on thurs rochester utica ot games played on fri binghamton baltimore moncton st john s ot springfield providence series stati plural of status adirondack defeated cdi springfield leads providence binghamton leads baltimore rochester leads utica st john s leads moncton cape breton leads fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week allan cs ualberta ca allan sullivan writes i heard a story on the local sports news broadcast in edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will be holding a press conference next week while the exact details are not known it is believed to concern the oiler s future rumour has it that pocklington signed a tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium in hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal it is quite possible that the deal may simply be a way to force edmonton northlands to renegotiate the oiler lease on the stadium northlands has offered to buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately by pocklington as for me my opinion is divided edmonton has been fairly supportive of the oilers even though they re a small market team they had many sellouts in the s even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought in more fans than many teams in larger cities did on the other hand if the team does move there is no place more deserving than hamilton of course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme of bettman following up on this the provincial government has been asked by the opposition to block any deal that pocklington is offering to hamilton the government said that pock is going nowhere why don t i believe the government wasn t it pocklington who wanted to be tory leader years ago dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadallee ersys edmonton ab ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence springfield gm providence springfield gm springfield providence gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore binghamton gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica rochester ot gm rochester utica gm rochester utica gm rochester utica ot gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton gm moncton st john s ot gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton ot gm cape breton at fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton note about this series the ap reports that cb has won this series but in the original schedule game wasn t supposed to be until tonight and i only have the oilers as being up bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes i prefer to watch hockey than seeing shots of felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing in front of the net he has every right to stand in front of the net just not in the crease yes he does but the goalie sure as hell doesn t want him there when i played roller hockey boy do i miss those days as a goalie i would scream at my defense to clear guys out of the slot i don t care if he s in the crease or not get him the hell away from me so i can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and if there was nobody around to clear the slot then i d do it myself by pushing the offending player hard i hate people in my way when i m the goalie and i am sure felix does too i should say that i didn t see the incident so if potvin really swung the stick big time then that s not right but he can move people out of the way he s a player on the ice too you know keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler i have to agree wholeheartedly with this view i don t like to see stickwork but you have to clear players away from in front my personal favorite move i m a goalie too is to give the offeding player a good whack on the back of their skates when the ref isn t looking makes em go down like a ton of bricks but doesn t cause injuries unless they don t know how to fall i m talking about hitting the blades here not the foot it also makes the player you hit and anyone who sees really mad and apt to take a stupid retaliation penalty unfortunately it also leaves your blocker out of position for a short time i don t do this if a shot is likely on the short side hmm maybe i should mail potvin this method in french and with helpful diagrams of course it sure would be nice to see ciccerelli who i have a great deal of respect for btw he s not a big guy but he plays huge fall on his back a few times barfly
rec.sport.hockey	they re real and they re spectacular they re real and they re spectacular the blues shutout the blackhawks in consecutive playoff games if the blues sweep the hawks on sunday i will launch a broom onto the ice in the last seconds of the game not that there s anything wrong with that curtis joseph has been the master of his own domain and the hawks have been shooting the puck like a bunch of chuckers not even superman could play any better in goal joseph must have been eating his cereal it s like a sauna in here said a spectator about the hot atmosphere and the wild crowd at the arena it was very refreshing to see the blues double dip the hawks the hawks goons tried to pick on hull janney and joseph but the blues checking line nipped those hawks real well the fat yoyoma will sing on sunday and the hawks will head to the beach the hawks trip back to chicago will feel like a long journey from milan to minsk enjoy sunday s game with some junior mints and wash them down with a snapple just a little fun a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re stan fischler in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes roger neilson is not property among other rumours he s now the candidate to coach the flyers and will bring along colin campbell as his assistant this would be dumb move of the nineties lindros is big and strong but why give him a ball and chain on one leg and an anchor on the other to drag along compuware is actively scouting phoenix for a new team in hey nick and jimmy buy the devils and fix them here please gld not if pocklington gets there first actually if pocklington doesn t get a better deal he would probably go to hamilton taking the team out of canada would get the whole country mad at him taking the team to hamilton wouldn t get anybody mad at him that isn t mad at him already and would make him a lot of friends in southern ontario so many that the whining of the stupid politicians in edmonton and the fickle spoiled fans wouldn t be noticed at all edmonton would wallow in anonymnity gerald
rec.sport.hockey	don s nickname grapes was re don cherry help me out here georgeh gjhsun george h writes lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info i think that the name grapes came because as coach for the bruins or in the minors he used to chew on grapes to keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause he liked labatts beer anyone know about that according to quotations from chairman cherry don was playing in springfield he and another player had to pay some fines the other player had his paid off but not don didn t want to don called the other player a teacher s pet and the other player replied ah that s just sour grapes don t know how accurate that is but that s what s printed
rec.sport.hockey	leafs win thank you potvin it s about time the boys got it together they were outworked and outplayed by the wings in the first two games but burns must have kicked their behinds cause they sure came out in full gear or is that high gear in game except for a minute stretch in the nd period they outskated and outworked the wings please don t flame this statement cos you know it s true i have to admit that goaltending was the key potvin kept the leafs ahead during the sleepy stretch the leafs went through in the nd he also kept the rebounds to a minimum something that cost cheveldae goals clark even looked like he had stopped moping first star although i still don t know why he was so flat in games and if the leafs play the same style and can keep the pace they had in game they may actually have a chance of winning this series a slim chance but a chance i m no rm where is he anyways haha barfly
rec.sport.hockey	ahl leafs back home apparently the public workers strike in st john s newfoundland is over the strike has since mid january forced the st john s maple leafs hockey team to play their home games in other cities such as toronto cornwall and charlottetown they have been playing their playoff home games in halifax nova scotia leafs management said that they could return to st john s for the second round bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	interview guests have you ever noticed that after a hockey player has been interviewed in between periods on a tv game that they usually get a goal or an assist can you explain this or is it that they usually talk to stars more than regular players which explains the hight percentage of results after just wondering how everybody else thinks about this or if they dont care about this trivial nonsense ttyl tom tom moffat victoria b c canada
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins buffalo fans some people in the discussion group as well as commentator al on espn believe that game is critical for the sabres helloooo the sabres are ahead games to not behind as a life long sabres fan i am well aware of their ability to choke but let s not exaggerate that as long as the sabres win one of the next games be it game or game they are still in good shape ahead games to with game to be played at buffalo if they lose games three and four then start worrying game is critical for boston not buffalo rob andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team yeh but biran sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st l wasn t very impressive his blues teams were eliminated very early in the playoffs it doesn t look like this trend will change with the bruins bruins have never come back to win after falling behind in their entire year history it doesn t look like buffalo will just lose their next two games at the aud with the way fuhr has been standing on his head basically the bruins will be on the golf course by next weekend also it seems like the whole boston area has gone baseball crazy after an incredibly great start by the red sox best record in their major leagues as of now i would say that of the callers to the bruins flagship station sportsradio are talking about the red sox about are yapping about the patriots upcoming draft are on the celtics and about are on the bruins somehow no one around here is really schocked the way bruins are folding early ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	upcoming tv schedule hey guess what s coming to espn for a change a playoff which doesn t involve the pens not that there is anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps at ny isles at tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement espn named its broadcast team on tuesday it paired tom mees play by play with john davidson analyst ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	some play offs thoughts well we re almost halfway through the first round and so far things are good in general the teams that i hate most chicago and basten are down zip even though there is a possibility either can still win their series yet this ego thrashing and arrogance smashing by the underdogs st louis and buffalo is so rewarding montreal is at this stage in a team s life where they are not good enough to go all the way yet too good to be able to get some really good draft picks is it just me or does anyone out there also think that this year the cup final should be played between teams from the wales is it just because they re playing montreal that i find the diques arrogant s or are they really smythe what i m really getting sick of seeing douggie and wendel night in and night out we should see some canucks jets flames action don cherry is an alright but hey so are our politicians obleafsjoke q what do you get when you cross a maple leaf and a groundhog a six more weeks of crummy hockey l r dudes go habs gooooooooooooooooooo jon shaib ac carleton freenet ca
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article io maine maine edu jon carr io maine maine edu writes when is the draft this year and will there be any coverage i know the upcomming nfl draft is on espn anyone got the details paul kariya pick no perhaps he won t last long i don t know the exact coverage in the states in canada it is covered by tsn so maybe espn will grab their coverage i don t know as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong the sharks appear to be leaning toward picking rob niedermayer a center his brother scott is a defenseman picked by nj a couple years ago they brought him in for a physical tryout a week or so ago from what i have read niedermayer is the best skater in the draft plays both offense and defense and isn t afraid of physical play defensively the sharks are looking pretty good in terms of defense prospects rathje sykora ragnarsson and our centers kisio et al are getting old with all of the small players the sharks have i justs can t see them picking yet another small player like kariya he d just get bashed by the oppposition and get a separated shoulder mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure espn must have some very poor marketing people they are only concerned with featuring players i e mario than featuring good competitive hockey also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games i ve heard that this is because most of their market is east coast and hence would prefer the wales stuff also don t expect canadian teams on espn in summary if you want to see a network that provides good hockey coverage watch cbc from canada they may be biased toward canadian teams but they don t treat the viewers like idiots they provide nice updates and don cherry will always provide a few laughs
rec.sport.hockey	re espn cares less about hockey in article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself anyway after i calmed down after i realized that they were not going to show overtime of the caps isles game i thought to myself i knew that this was going to happen in fact i remerbed myself praying that at least they would keep even the boring devils game overall i think espn does not care if they show hockey or not and i firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans ie because of contract obligations screw you espn praise be to all hockey fans who put up with this shit go hawks this is the price hockey fans have to pay for the mistake of leaving espn or years ago it will take time to correct for that mistake but returning to espn was the correct decision last year by next time we may have the potential for sportschannel and espn to really compete to offer better coverage and be forced to deliver on it gerald
rec.sport.hockey	what s up in rochester here we are with the sabres up to the bruins and the sabres farm team the rochester amerks on their way to the calder cup urp and what kind of hockey coverage are we getting the same penguins devils every other day crap that everyone else gets what s worse the sportschannel coverage of the islanders appears to be blocked out since we got cba basketball last night if you can believe it i assume the sabres are demanding the sc blackout not espn since we are unbelievably usually considered part of the islanders territory msg coverage of the rangers is blacked out here this despite being a solid seven hours plus from long island does anyone know what grc is doing besides putting their satellite dish up their ass and screwing my reception of channels and did empire demand a fortune for the games what about the games on fox or whatever number it is there in buffalo has anyone phoned to complain besides me george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
rec.sport.hockey	re grant fuhr leads sabres in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i applauded the sabres for making the deal to get fuhr specifically because i thought it would help them win at least one playoff series however i don t think the leafs can be faulted either there is nothing to say that felix won t be winning playoff series by himself in years to come anyway does anybody else find it ironic that fuhr is up against moog or at least he was until a guy named alex showed up
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations co cleveland freenet edu theodore g benjamin writes in messge on mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don t play i would like to tune in other games does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones i can remember offhand kdka am pittsburgh penguins lori the regular penguins poster here on rec sport hockey indicated to me via e mail that on the nights that pirates baseball and penguins playoff games coincide the pens will be covered on wdve fm wabc am new jersey devils wbbm am chicago blackhawks wjm am detroit redwings this is wjr in detroit and it s am however as i neglected to mention in my earlier response to this thread on the nights when the tigers baseball games coincide with the wings playoff games the wings will be carried on wllz fm
rec.sport.hockey	re espn thumbs up your in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg oh guess what the score is now penguins switch games you and guess which game espn is showing in my area on thursday yep pens devils there are so many other interesting series who cares about mario mike
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns borchevsky is and gilmour is i think gilmour slightly outweighs borchevsky andreychuk is also about i think susan teeheehee oops
rec.sport.hockey	re espn f ck up in article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind what the hell are u talking about espn showed pens devils game as advertised but the morons at espn should know that pens will kick devils ass and the game will be boring i d rather see boston buffalo game which seems to be an exciting series since noone had expected buffalo to get past the first round well let s hope they change their mind on thu s game and show some other game the pens series is really getting boring i want to see some exciting game no matter who wins if nhl wants a major network contract then they better put some brains in espn people experience is what makes a person make new mistakes instead of old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach s corner summary april here s a summary of don cherry s coach s corner from april the game being broadcast in my region was la and calgary although i think it was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night warning anti fighting people may want to skip this post topics don s tie grant fuhr penalties wings vs leafs fighting dale hunter episode summary this episode began with the camera zoomed in on don s tie don was pointing out the characters on the tie bugs bunny foghorn leghorn and yosemite sam who don called lanny macdonald ron maclean began by mentioning that don was almost evicted from a hotel where he was watching the previous night s games because of all the yelling and cheering he was doing over the play of hunter and fuhr don began to praise fuhr calling him the greatest goalie and said that he s winning the series against boston all by himself he then showed clips from earlier episodes nov jan when fuhr was still with the leafs and don advised don t trade fuhr don went on to predict that if buffalo gets by boston it would be fuhr who wins the series muckler took a lot of heat for the trade but don feels muckler s been vindicated the next topic involved how playoff games are being ruined by too many penalty calls he showed a clip from a winnipeg vancouver game where domi hit a vancouver player and was given a min penalty ron said that it was called a penalty because his stick was involved but don stuck with the opinion that it was a good hit with domi hitting the vancouver player with his shoulder don its sad what they re doing for hockey a minute penalty for a nosebleed next they went to the playoff series between detroit and toronto people in detroit were calling wendel clarke wendy for not fighting however don pointed out that probert was not fighting either this lead don into a tirad about fighting and stickwork and how banning fighting leads to more high sticking it s like college hockey the little wee guy with the visor is brave as anybody that s why you re seeing so much stickwork because they know you won t drop your gloves and give them a shot the rules are made by people who don t know what s going on in hockey the final topic don discussed was dale hunter don pointed out that he was leading the league in goals and showed a clip of hunter from a previous game when he was younger hunter was taught to play to win which differs from today s idea of just letting kids have fun at then end of the episode they showed a clip from a coach s corner with the tape on fast forward so that don sounded like one of the chipmunks rating typical anti fighting posturing not too much humour but some good quotes i d give it a out of allan sullivan allan cs ualberta ca department of computing science university of alberta edmonton alberta canada my opinions are mine and mine alone it is amazing how much can be accomplished if no one cares who gets the credit u of a golden bears hockey motto c drake
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach s corner summary april here s a summary of don cherry s coach s corner from april it was taken from a tape delay of a vancouver winnipeg game but it was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night i think it was also shown during the calgary la game warning anti fighting people may want to skip this post topics don s tie doug gilmour wings leafs quebec montreal boston buffalo wendel clark fighting and stickwork episode summary once again the episode started with a shot of don s tie this was a different tie than last time don pointed out some of the characters on the tie but gave them different names felix the cat sylverster maclean daffy duck etc ron maclean asked don what he thought of the current wings leafs game don thought it was good burns told the leaf players they won in their building we re going to win in ours don then began to praise gilmour again don pointed out that gilmour has never got less than points or a goal in any game since he got points in a game against st louis don also claims that he gave a lot of encouragement to gilmour which was partly responsible for his good play several clips were then shown of gilmour from the series a hit on constantinov and a pass to andrewchuk resulting in a goal on the game itself the wings were taking a lot of penalties in the first period the wings have enough talent to score short handed however and when the leafs get a power play coach burns tells the leaf players don t let them score on you ron brought up the previous quebec montreal game note montreal won that game in overtime despite having a possible game winner disqualified because it was batted in with a high stick don thought the high stick was obvious even without the use of instant replay on the buffalo boston series note buffalo is currently winning the series don gave full credit to goaltender grant fuhr fuhr should be getting the team s playoff checks for his play wendel clarke has recently been criticized for his performance during the detroit toronto series don defended him by saying that he can t play the way he should because of the league s new rules this used to be a rough and tough league now its all hack and slash don lays the blame on gil stien for the problems don s opinions on fighting and stickwork are shared by wings gm and coach bryan murray a clip from a news conference by murray was shown in which murray made statements claiming the elimination of fighting increases stickwork don also read a newspaper article in which murray makes the following statements players don t fight because they re afraid of getting thrown out of the game as instigator instead they settle grudges by getting their sticks and slicing each other is this what the fans want to see i guarantee there wouldn t be as many slashes if fighting were kept in the game don warned league commisioner gary bettman to smarten up with fighting in hockey he went on to say that before there used to be one guy cut with a high stick in a series now with no fights someone gets cut every period rating typical anti fighting posturing but here don s opinion is supported by murray i d give it a out of
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games also does anyone have info on abc coverage for this sunday espn had an advertise for pens devils game i don t know what the hell they are trying to do especially against nfl draft well i guess there goes the nhl ratings for sundays game robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article r v n klh morrow stanford edu steve sep stanford edu steve cole writes i think the three headed gm s guiding principle was to keep veterans in favor of youngsters only if they offered a significant advantage doesn t sound like a bad strategy to me no and in fact that was ferreira s original strategy which the troika proceeded to simply continue to implement there wasn t exactly a radical shift in policy when he was ousted something people seem to forget the only real question is whether they did it as well as ferreira could have if he stayed or whether the basic strategy was flawed since ferreira has been quoated as saying he s going to do something different in anaheim with the ducks my guess is that it wasn t as good in practice as it was on paper and he s tweaking it a bit second time around one also has to wonder whether the strategy would have been a lot better if we hadn t had those injuries and whether we re complaining about the weather because an earthquake collapsed the root cellar of course ferreira had also traded a number of veterans with marginal contributions before he was fired so it s not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let s also not forget that ferreira came this close to trading kelly kisio which if the rumors i ve heard are true was over the strong objections of other aspects of shark management and probably had a lot to do with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented gm imagine for a second where the sharks would be today if that fax machine hadn t jammed with or without mullen they weren t going to be a playoff team what good does it do them to hang onto a player who d rather be elsewhere especially an unhappy player that isn t playing as well because of it not that i d accuse mullen of tanking but his motivation simply wasn t there and that kind of thing can affect the team an example from this season skriko was brought in on a trial basis but not kept because of his age i thought he was a decent contributor worth keeping around the youth movement has its advantages look at gaudreau who might still be in kc if more veterans had been kept around but you have to find the right balance right balance for what that s the issue exactly at the time they let skriko go we hadn t yet had the major injury bugs that killed us later i d much rather have skriko around than someone like dean kolstad but at that point that wasn t the choice and since the choice was more one of skriko vs someone like john carter i think the right choice was made for that time period chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft i believe the nhl draft is on or the june th weekend
rec.sport.hockey	goalie stats in article r smf m access usask ca coulman cs usask ca randy coulman writes path ctron news ctron com noc near net uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca mi izar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca cs usask ca coulman from coulman cs usask ca randy coulman newsgroups rec sport hockey subject final regular season individual goalie stats date wed apr edt organization university of saskatchewan lines distribution world message id r smf m access usask ca reply to coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the individual goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified these stats are available by mail every weekday and sometimes on weekends if i m in town and i can get late game results just send me a note if you would like to receive these stats by mail if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player was byron dafoe har corrie d alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi ed belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean nj chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk tb wendell young tb jc bergeron nj craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford la robb stauber la kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin la rick knickle tb pat jablonski sj arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike o neill sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks la david goverde tb david littman randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w mike machnik machnik blue ctron com nin b merrimack edu cabletron systems inc hmn
rec.sport.hockey	espn bashing i agree thouroughly screw the damn contractual agreements show the exciting hockey game they will lose fans of espn of which i have been one for quite a while quickly with decisions like this just my chuck espn f ed up this time atwood atwoodc csugrad cs vt edu virginia tech computer science department
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i can t believe that espn is making sportschannel america look good but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts yes a point well taken however even in areas that finally got some games there s something nagging in the back of your skull when the network that has the national rights in its pocket says on its sports news there s an awesome overtime going on in quebec city and we ll try to get you an update through the show when you know that it s on a satellite s feedhorn somewhere up there listen guys you can talk about this the whole playoffs i m here in a small town in southern illinois at school i m from canada and i know that cbc and tsn have games on every night all you have to do is go to a bar with a satellite i have watched both games between mon que and toronto and detroit not to mention van vs winn and with cbc they show all goals from every game that evening so i haven t missed a goal all playoffs well have to go boy leafs are on ciao roger guagliano eastern illinois university
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes in article qmpfa qna alpha db erau edu drozinst db erau edu drozinski tim writes i am an ulf and pgh fan and what pisses me off about the whole adam graves ulf samuesson debate is that ulf plays hard hitting hockey nothing wrong with that while graves does what he does when the only way to win a game is to intentionally hurt someone which bites jeesus i never thought i d see the day when i defended a ranger you obviously don t watch much hockey if you think that graves is a goon he is one of the hardest working rangers check that the hardest working ranger he had goals this year not bad for a checking type of player and showed up for every single game this season unlike that stiff messier he is fearless and throws clean checks he will also stand up to someone after he hits them not like that pussy oaf exactly my point if you d watch games more closely you d see a lot of goons going after him ulf is one of the main reasons why less physical players for pgh are left alone ulf plays rough hockey but only when other players are putting the rush on mario or jagr if you want to say anyone on the penguins is a cheap shot or a goon say it s jennings or caufield don tslander a good defenseman because your favorite players can t beat the pens even when they take dives like gartner to try for the cheap penalties as for his slash of lemieux fine it was a cheap shot it is the exception not the rule i bet you think mike gartner is a goon because of the time that he slashed the hell out of oaf s arm last year right after all he did get a suspension for it hey that s fine if a player does something stupid he should be penalized including ulf or mario you re not likely to see that happen or anyone else for that matter it s pointless to say any one person is a cheap shot goon because you ll see everyone take a cheap shot now and then especially if you resomeone who is shadowed as much as ulf is jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes richard wernick writes stuff deleted if the bruins get to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanley cup stuff deleted how much do you watch and follow hockey the pens and bruins will be in the same division next season which will give neeley plenty of opportunity to whine about ulf all i can say is i m glad that you are satisfied with seeing ulf turtle up as a substitute for the stanley cup because that s as close as the bruins are going to come to the stanley cup for a while tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re selfish hockey fans in article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes on tuesday when it was raining in chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now it seems as though some fans are ticked off that the ny wash ot was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead of hockey fans in the u s the baseball game was scheduled to air and advertisers money was paid so they can t skip the baseball game why don t you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get well partly because i as an ardent fan of both sports would rather see game of the nhl playoffs than game of of the mlb season even if the bb game involves the red sox espn may have had contractual obligations i understand that part but it s a bit inaccurate to call us selfish just because we want to watch the watch the game we love am i as a baseball fan selfish when i get pissed a cbs for showing approximately one game per month i don t think so while espn may have contractual obligations we as their consumers have a right to voice our displeasure with how they are serving us there s certainly nothing wrong with that bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all joe pitt edu joseph b stiehm writes the way he does does not belong in the nhl there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game but a lot of them have been talanted players bobby clarke kenny linsemen pie mckenzie chris chelios etc but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like should have been a women samuelson don t belong when players like ulf who s main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue and the league won t stop it the players should a christian pro aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanely cup this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup the penguins would not even notice he s gone he s an eyesore on the game of hockey rich rich pull your head out of your ass joseph stiehm as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf s head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it with your back assward mentality saying that hurting a player will solve anyone s problems is asinine new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted right now too many of the real goons get away with too much because the ref is watching the play or supposed to be i ve seen koharski and van hellemond to name a few with their heads up their asses on a few calls rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties it would be an improvement tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re espn thumbs up your in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet wrote i think this proves by point the caps game goes into overtime but due to contractual obligations they have to switch to the fucking baseball sorry for my language but im pissed what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out of your ass now i know there are a lot hey american hockey fans as a hockey fan i can sympathize with thefrustration that you feel the problem is that other americans don t give a shit about hockey they view it as a bunch of canadians with bad accents and missing teeth beating the shit out of each other on a patch of ice when it is too warm now in two thirds of the us to see the stuff naturally on the other hand baseball is the gasp swoon sigh national pasttime baseball is so romanticized in the us that you are supposed to forget that other sport exist after april and before november i feel that since espn shows baseball games a week they should be able to show an ot hockey game instead of the opening innings of a baseball game hell the game is going to last hrs mins so what if you miss the first hrs and i am an indians fan show the end of what you started then switch but then i m a hockey fan what do i know baseball is the all mighty sport jason jae andy bgsu edu go whalers pick well
rec.sport.hockey	re usenet hockey draft final standings in article c un gq idacom hp com andrew idacom hp com andrew scott writes here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations to this year s winner dave wessels of victoria b c who parlayed his initial points into points thanks to all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever i hope to hear from you all again this september for the th annual draft usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels brad gibson dinamo riga an interesting note i have absolutely no recollection who was on my team i picked all my players about weeks before the start of the season and then never touched the roster again i got wrapped up in my own money pool and decided not to get involved at all with the usenet pool sorry andrew btw the only thing i remember about my team is that i had joe sacco and maybe john maclean maybe francis and kevin stevens as well out of curiousity i checked the final standings today on r s h only to find to my amazement that with absolutely no input the initial team still managed to finsh th i m not sure what that implies for those who finished below me ciao brad gibson brad k gibson internet gibson geop ubc ca dept of geophysics astronomy main mall phone university of british columbia fax vancouver british columbia canada v t z
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in article bb ea a lmarsha cms cc wayne edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall says in article c ssl ebs spk hp com filipows spk hp com dennis filipowski writes door attendants at the joe louis arena have been checking fans for octopuses sp as they are not allow in the arena i want to know where these people are hiding these octopuses everytime i ve been to the joe they checked my purse and that s the only place i can think of putting one any other wings fans out there know of ways to sneak these octopuses into the joe you mean they don t strip search you and do cavity checks the fools
rec.sport.hockey	pilon bites do the isles have another defenseman to insert into the line up besides pilon once again last night s stupid penalty put the isles in a hole for the remainder of regulation and minutes into overtime even though the isles nearly survived pilon s blunder in regulation it was the most inopportune time for a minute major penalty instead of confronting cote as he came across the blueline pilon backed up and swiped at cote s nose with his stick al arbour can t be serious to think pilon is the guy to have out there with the game on the line i heard scott lachance is out till later in the series but there must be someone else bring back the bammer dave langevin lets go islanders john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov i ve been gambling hereabouts for good solid years jg rh
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings o k only one series is done but i need to post something by the way the islanders just scored rank team name points final roland behunin cal que que milton keynes kings det pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean s det pit pit oz lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit bh s last place picks chi pit pit dave wessels van pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ye ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs of myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller n walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers of chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi fr nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	habs tie series at yahooooooooo the habs tied this sucker at and the teams now head for quebec city to play game btw final score was habs nords the score might be a bit misleading the habs dominated the game from the mark of the first and then on the score should have been if it weren t for some miraculous save from a ron hextall bastard he s the reason the score was as close habs winning goal was scored by benoit brunet at of the rd roy had an ok game he made the first save one way or another and the defense was there to clear any rebounds this just in espn radio reports that the bruins lost in ot yahooooooooooo those suckers got what they deserved life is just great now if my finals would go just as well nick i ll take off my town crier hat now the czar of mainframe computing bgk musicb mcgill ca mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	re jets canucks jets hold on win in article c p lsp news cso uiuc edu epritcha s psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes i will also be happy will a good performance we played ok in vancouver but much better last night as the big guys were going for the jets yep though my reasons for being relatively quiet are simple last year i woofed when we went up on the canucks and look where it got me by the way did domi play last night i didn t notice him on the ice domi got tossed in the nd with a high sticking major he had been playing with kris king and stu barnes and it was this line that was arguably the best in the first two games i am very glad to have found some places in champaign illinois that have satillite dishes to pick up the cbc vancouver feed and i m also glad to have found some other hockey fans some jets and some canucks fans to watch the game with definitely a good thing every little cheer helps evan good thing the net doesn t need a voice to operate i won t have one sunday night when i get home i hope white noise here we come one thing i will say though vancouver can keep steve armitage and john garrett as a broadcast team those two are bad especially when you are spoiled by don wittman at least four or five times steve called barnes selanne whoops daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	sabres sweep it s over the sabres came back to beat the bruins in ot tonight to sweep the series a beautiful goal by brad may lafontaine set him up while lying down on the ice ended it fuhr left the game game with an injured shoulder and lafontaine was banged up as well however the sabres will get a week s rest so injuries should not be a problem montreal edged quebec to square their series which seems to be headed for game the habs dominated the first two periods and were unlucky to only have a tie after minutes however an early goal by brunet in the rd won it the islanders won their rd ot game of the series on a goal by ray ferraro the caps simply collapsed after taking a lead in the nd the isles all time playoff ot record is now vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	and you think espn shafted you like many others i too was watching the caps isles game when the went to the baseball game i too was pissed how could they interupt such an important game i understand about contracts but you would think they would have a clause in the contract concerning important games anyway us blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone in the u s and watched the game on abc however those of us who live in the central illinois area were subjected to watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected by the telecast did not get to see the game except through hawk vision this game had it been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown in the area since this television bull has got to stop we are not only being deprived of seeing games due to skyrocketing ticket prices but we are also being deprived of watching them on tv peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	pierre turgeon a stud being a a blues fan i don t get to see much else from around the league with the exception of hockey night on espn i can t get the blues games where i go to school thus i don t get to see a whole lot of other teams play except for the hawks but last night i got to catch a glimpse of the caps isles game it occurred to me that turgeon is a stud on skates his moves are quick and brilliant you ny fans should be proud p s who won the game caps isles peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	great comeback for sabres despit changing goalie bufflo sabres has just finished their great four wins over boston all sabres players contribute to those great wins but those talent players including mogily fuhr kemhlev and lafontin impressed me most their skills showed the art of sport not like the garbage speech from the coach s corner go make hocky popular make hocky more exciting but less violent
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing we re here talking about hockey we don t go away like some team s fans when the rangers bite the big one yeah i think we re used to it by now even if some of us do change our sigs to root for our second favorite teams i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i don t care i want my f cking stanley cup before i die aargh i ll be happy if they win it before i get out of school the way it s going i may be here saying piled higher and deeper before long ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins this has been observed many times it s true definitely i have a feeling that alot of people out there may not like this statement but by far the worst band wagon fans are the pit fans at least at the present case in point i know a guy who just came to hockey hell tm from pitt u him how bout the pens the re f ing awesome me yeah but beating up on the devils doesn t mean alot wait until they meet boston and or detroit in the playoffs start him when do the playoffs start me uhhhh they started a week ago i m not saying that this is true of all the waddlers fans but there seems to be alot of them floating around who really know nothing about hockey except that they re newly beloved waddlers are the best team in the game right now and when they re not the best team those fans will disappear into the woodwork john flames dev null serious comments welcomed eat the rich as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller in hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak the real black and gold in memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who a polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders to the crown winston cup champion a great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky well maybe they re all out on the golf course or something but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at still here just doing a little sobbing in our beer so we re to busy to post seriously i think i caught a sig curse from nelson first the rangers and now the b s hmmm how bout dem whalers no offense to steveg or others in hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak the real black and gold in memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who a polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders to the crown winston cup champion a great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article apr virginia edu mjr u virginia edu matthew j rush writes actually i was angry when they went away from the pens game being a pens fan in central virginia is kinda tough i only get to see them on espn and when they play the caps cause we re close enough to dc to get all the caps games so when espn switched to the caps aaaggghhh matt not nearly as angry as i was to have set the vcr yesterday only to get home to find the bruins vs buffalo that s what i get for reading the tv section and not the sports section for what game will be aired nancy j spera imt division if i didn t know for a fact that p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis was working in a donut shop e p o box la habra ca o in beaver falls i d swear he was n tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin s
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations add boston s weei am as the bruins flagship station you probably won t pick it up anywhere outside of boston since it s only a watt station the bruins also have network stations in all new england states this could be the bruins last year on eei which also happens to be an all sports radio station the problem is that the bruins are not too happy being moved over to a different station wmex am whenever there is a the same night conflict with the nba s boston celtics this happened times during the course of the regular season the celtics own financially troubled weei the bruins might resurface on whdh next year stay tuned ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re s quoting the logistician to all tl i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now tl only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly tl appreciated tl thanx hi there logistician is not paul coffey wearing for the detroit red wings that is the only other one besides borque that i can think of hope it helps steve warning removal of this tagline prohibited by law blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re espn broadcastsssss quoting cire y trehguad to all cyt hey i am in iowa and i do not mind espn showing the pitt njd games cyt at least i get to see the devils even if they are gettin there ass cyt kicked perhaps they will score and even win a game or two cyt go devils i am sorry to tell you this but i don t think the devils will win a game against pittsburg the penguins have so many scoring threats that you shut down one and another will kill you it s too bad but i must conclude that the penguins will win their third stanley cup in a row i hope someone will beat them but i just cannot see it happening s t e v e backup not found a bort r etry p anic blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re hey what about teh c quoting greg rogers to all gr hi all gr due to living in the bay area i as unable to see vancouver s victory gr over the jets last night i know the score but that rarely describes gr the game could someone please post a brief sonapsis sp of waht gr happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving of gr the victory gr also could some kind soul please email me the end of season gr individual player stats gr greg gr vancouver for the cup in a virtual reality i am sorry to tell you this greg but in all reality we cannot see vancouver winning the cup they have a rrally good chance to come out of the smythe division and a chance to make it to the finals but no one is capable this year of beating the penguins they have too many scoring threats i would love to be proven wrong but i must conclude that the pens will win cup this year steve mondays are a rotten way to spend a th of your life blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re test please ignore quoting ohandley betsy gsfc nasa to all oh from ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh newsgroups rec sport hockey oh subject test please ignore oh message id apr betsy gsfc nasa gov oh date wed apr gmt oh reply to ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh this is a test please ignore oh oh oh oh ok i will ignore this message since it is only a test wow montreal just scored to go up in game of their series oh sorry i was supposed to ignore this message wasn t i bye for now steve dont you dare read this tagline blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re espn really sucks big time cdash moet cs colorado edu charles shub writes so all us hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where we stand espn delays the martinsville race by a day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead of the overtime of a nhl playoff game gimme a break guys what really irritated me was that they kept switching back and forth between baseball and hockey after they stated that they couldn t show the overtime period i turned back to espn around and it was hockey great i pulled up a chair and watched then the first overtime period ended and they went back to baseball before coming back to hockey something like minutes later are they trying to alienate both hockey and baseball viewers at the same time as for martinsville i wonder why they even bothered to sign up for it when they it was no secret that it coincided with the draft why not let tnn broadcast it george charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings paul fugu data io com paul brownlow writes wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl wood is fairly small for an enforcer type i mean fleury does a pretty good job and isn t that large but dody is no fleury having been witness to three or four of his fights closeup he simply isn t ready to fight at an nhl level assuming that it s his role which is all he really showed us in his few games up from k c if he can pass shoot or skate i never saw much of it all he has is a right fist which isn t bad but at the nhl level the other players are smart enough to grab the thing before he can land anything significant once you control that hand he s a fish flopping on the beach and the other player can do just about anything he wants to him his entire strategy seemed to be keep the hand out of reach until he found an opening and i never once saw him find an opening worth talking about he got neutralized quickly and stomped on a couple of times unless he shows some new tricks in camp he ll be on my career minor leaguer list since this was his first taste of the nhl i expect the sharks gave it to him so he d know what he d have to work on off season he needs to get stronger he needs to get more speed and he needs to show some versatility as something else than a simply goond because he wasn t particularly good as a goon chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	islanders win third in ot don t know who scored but the isles franchise record in playoff ot games took game four by a score of for their third consecutive ot win over the capitals tonight at uniondale if you know please post who scored for a isles fan living in atlanta hockey hell lord stan s a uniondale man go isles jsm
rec.sport.hockey	wc finland disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team jarkko
rec.sport.hockey	re wc finland ketolain messi uku fi jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team in four of the five games finns have played the goalie has been chosen the best player of the opposing team in the fifth the finnish goalie ketterer was elected the best finn has this to do with the goalies having good days in these games or are the finnish players just lousy scorers anyway quite few goals have been scored in these games in generally the exception of course being canada vs italy it looks like the goalies are getting too good is this due to their equipment getting bigger so they cover more their gloves e g seem to be much bigger now than they were some years ago anybody know if the rules on goalie equipment has changed this way mikko wihervaara jarkko t m on nyt t mm nen testi sigun kai piti olla muutamarivinen nyt viel pari
rec.sport.hockey	re stan fischler in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes wayne made his own bed choosing mcnall over sather and hockey destiny he should sleep in it instead of whining ego got absolute nonsense the decision that was made was pocklington s he chose mill over gretzky if gretzky wasn t upset about not being able to win a cup in la then i submit that he wasn t worth the mill the best of him he thought the supporting cast in edmonton didn t matter that he was the show himself how do you know what he thinks or thought the only thought that i can see that you have revealed is your own you don t like gretzky big deal now my only complaint about lemieux is that he dives too much but last year patrick convinced him twice to accept bowman and hockey destiny rather than his ego the real purpose of diving is not merely an attempt to draw a penalty what the player is trying to do is make the checkers keep their distance so the ref won t be fooled i can t imagine why anyone would expect someone like lemieux to change his game why don t you pick on dimensional over rated type like hull and salami cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on tues rochester utica fredericton at cape breton series stati plural of status adirondack leads cdi providence tied w springfield binghamton tied w baltimore rochester leads utica st john s leads moncton cape breton tied w fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	nc caps isles fans caps isles fans anyone interested in catching the games from nassau coliseum hopefully there will be another can catch the game at north carolina s original sports bar in chapel hill i m pretty sure they carry hts as well they had all three games on at the same time last night this is the only place i know to catch all of the stanley cup action frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions i am sure some bashers of pens fans are pretty confused about the lack of any kind of posts about the recent pens massacre of the devils actually i am bit puzzled too and a bit relieved however i am going to put an end to non pittsburghers relief with a bit of praise for the pens man they are killing those devils worse than i thought jagr just showed you why he is much better than his regular season stats he is also a lot fo fun to watch in the playoffs bowman should let jagr have a lot of fun in the next couple of games since the pens are going to beat the pulp out of jersey anyway i was very disappointed not to see the islanders lose the final regular season game pens rule
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool game standings here are the standings after game of each of the divisional semi final series andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn sneddon scorers arctic circles northern lights threepeat fighting amish team elvis chris roney myers marauders the dead ducks les poteux sludge paige faults sam his dogs the borg hurricane andrew lewey s lakers einstien s punk band homesick hawaiian test department samuel lau calgary alberta mopar muscle men jerky boys gb flyers neural netters give you money monday bill mcgreer fugazi detroit homeboy bloom county all stars dehradun maawalis great expectations purdue ricks pens frank s little wankers jan stein allez les blues goaldingers suds weenies a p bury bruce s rented mules mind sweepers mike burger go flames garryola the mulberry maulers lippe flamming senators big bay bombers milton keynes kings seppo kemppainen freddy beach rockets the campi machine j s rock em sock ems sean forbes tapio repo zachmans wingers zipper heads canadian gladiators teem kanada new zealand leafs tiger chung lees rangers of destiny make beliefs dave wessels norway killerwhales force trevor s triumph commitments skate or die dog s hog s delaware destroyers craig team rangers blow debbie bowles mak paranjape comfortably numb loaded weapons rob del mundo robarts research rebels fuzzfaces galore houdini s magicians la coupe stainless cluster buster lets go pandas tequila shooters steves superstars reksa fans of oulu habs playing golf chris stevens on thin ice oakville brothers jason team smithw anson mak skriko wolves all the kane s men danielle leblanc team awesome weasels alf s all stars zippety doodah kramer george and jerry rev s rebels yan loke lamp lighters littlest giants mr creosote oceanweavers great scott bobby schmautz fan club icemachine hat trick mike the promise land daves knee jerk picks doug bowles holsteins sfb lemon pepper grizzly bears flying pigs les raisins reneb gilles carmel boops bets timo ojala rednecks from hockey hell gee man frack attack triple x ulfie s brothers buffalo soldiers shigella ottawa bearcats whiters monica loke lance hill the boston bruins fa mann mariners new jersey rob frasses faceplants doug mraz muller n walker high stickers legzryx beer makes me an expert gail hiebert dean martin marcs maulers brians bloodletters van isle colonists charlie cook bjorkloven schott shooters bjoern leaguen the eradicators lord stanley s favourites but wait theres more stacey ross heikki salmi the ice kickers chapman chaps the rangers of the underwriters beam team dave hiebert canuck force evan pritchard controversy warriors jfz dream team san jose mahi mahi go go gagit goddess of fermentation bure s blur louisiana psycho killers east city jokers tampere salami joe s a crak head grant marven mark and steve dreaming again pens dynasty chip n dale cherry bombers brian bergman the goobmeister oz arm hammer gax goons daryl turner e i s bosse myllypuro hedgehogs chapman sticks hillside raiders knights on a power play eldoret elephants sparky s select sluggo s hosers butt ends lisa s luggers stanias stars ken de cruyenaere gary shiff jukurit montys nords jane s world rolaids required martin s gag equipe du jour arsenal maple leafs the alarmers killer kings andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update curtis joseph and ray leblanc have made some big moves in the poll recently hextall has shown some strong movement as well kirk mclean and tom barrasso i can t see why have been added to the list recently keep sending in those votes current votes for favorite goalie masks pts st pts nd pt rd player team pts votes ed belfour chicago curtis joseph st louis andy moog boston brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec grant fuhr buffalo gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers ray leblanc usa olympic mike richter ny rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf sd ihl tommy soderstrom phil tom barrasso pit artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det sean burke nj rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi tony espo chi gilles gratton bos rod stauber la gump worsley mtl nyr pat jablonski tb grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi kirk mclean van go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p canada czech republic sweden germany russia usa switzerland finland italy norway austria france april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals sweden usa russia germany april quarterfinals canada finland italy switzerland czech republic april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca writes by the way i am canadian play a little and watched hockey night in canada never missed a show well that s really great pat i guess since you ve played a little you thereby qualify as an expert especially since you watch all the games on t v all that qualifies you as is a armchair quarterback or a coach potato not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario pat walker again just further evidence as to what kind of an expert you are truly a stupid statement mario is definately one of the best players to play the game i m not saying he is the best to ever play the game but he should come to mind when that question is asked let s face it he just returns from radiation therapy with around a dozen games left overtakes lafontaine for the scoring lead and then buries him no i guess he just got lucky speaking of lafontaine now there s a guy who should be considered for the hart trophy as well certainly one of the better players in the league this year
rec.sport.hockey	playoffs stats through sunday stanley cup playoff stats through games played sunday april top point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c adam oates usa stl rw brett hull rus buf rw alexander mogilny can pit c mario lemieux can cal rw theoren fleury can tor c doug gilmour can det d paul coffey usa buf c pat lafontaine can nyi c ray ferraro rus van rw pavel bure rus buf lw yuri khmylev can van rw trevor linden can buf c dale hawerchuk usa stl c craig janney can bos c joe juneau can cal c joe nieuwendyk can stl d jeff brown can pit c ron francis top goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player rus buf rw alexander mogilny usa stl rw brett hull can was c dale hunter can pit c mario lemieux can nyi c ray ferraro can tor lw dave andreychuk can bos rw cam neely usa la c jimmy carson usa que rw scott young top assist scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c adam oates can det d paul coffey usa buf c pat lafontaine can tor c doug gilmour can stl d jeff brown can pit c ron francis usa win d phil housley swe was d calle johansson can cal d al macinnis top power play goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player usa stl rw brett hull can was c dale hunter can cal rw theoren fleury rus buf rw alexander mogilny can bos c joe juneau can stl lw brendan shanahan usa la c jimmy carson tch cal c robert reichel fin win rw teemu selanne can mon lw vincent damphousse all the short handed goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can cal rw theoren fleury can pit c mario lemieux usa cal c joel otto usa cal d gary suter rus det c sergei fedorov can bos c dave poulin can win c luciano borsato can det lw shawn burr can stl lw dave lowry usa buf rw wayne presley top game winning goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player usa stl rw brett hull can nyi c ray ferraro usa stl c craig janney usa que rw scott young rus van rw pavel bure can pit c ron francis rus buf lw yuri khmylev can van rw trevor linden can tor lw dave andreychuk can was c dale hunter top point scoring defensemen rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can det d paul coffey can stl d jeff brown usa win d phil housley swe was d calle johansson can cal d al macinnis top rookie point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c joe juneau usa pit c shawn mceachern fin win rw teemu selanne tch buf d richard smehlik top penalty minute leaders rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can det lw keith primeau rus det c sergei fedorov can nyi d richard pilon can tor rw rob pearson can win rw tie domi a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging as much as i d like to see the nhl only a hour drive from me i can t help but feel for the people in minnesota unless they truly didn t support the team opinions please steve hunter national weather service nexrad radar group norman ok
rec.sport.hockey	blues playoff stats through first round blues playoff scoring through end of norris semifinals ps name gp g a pts pim pp sh gw en rw brett hull c craig janney d jeff brown lw brendan shanahan c nelson emerson rw denny felsner lw dave lowry lw basil mcrae lw kevin miller rw rich sutter c bob bassen lw philippe bozon c ron wilson d garth butcher d stephane quintal d bret hedican d murray baron d rick zombo g curtis joseph d doug crossman c ron sutter rw igor korolev rw kelly chase d curt giles g guy hebert rookie goaltending gp min ga avg w l en so sa save curtis joseph guy hebert team totals so shutouts sa shots against goals st period nd period rd period overtime power play goals short handed goals empty net goals shots a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	wc results april world championships in germany group a results sweden switzerland st swi manuele celio swi patrick howald swi patrick howald sven leuenberger nd swe peter andersson michael nylander pp swi roman waeger martin rauch sven leuenberger pp swe jonas bergqvist markus naslund swe jan larsson patrik juhlin rd swe mikael renberg thomas rundqvist peter andersson swi roman waeger swi felix hollenstein sven leuenberger thomas vrabec shots on goal penalties attendance referee sweden min rob hearn usa switzerland min switzerland beat sweden in a wc for the first time since and the swiss now have a small chance of reaching the quarterfinals if austria beats italy tonight the swiss took the lead after hakan ahlund made an incredibly stupid drop pass at his own blue line and celio came in alone with soderstrom and beat tommy to the stick side the swedes continued to make mistakes as howald was allowed to skate in between the swedish d and put the puck past tommy to make it was a nice one howald entered the swedish zone slammed on the breaks and his shot went in by tommy s far post one of the lousiest periods i ve seen sweden play this year second period saw a new swedish team and the swiss had to ice the puck many times on a pp nylander skated in from the boards pavoni made the initial save but peter andersson scored on the rebound then a power play goal from the swiss a slap shot from the blue line hit two players on the way to the goal and past soderstrom also jonas bergqvist made it after a nice pass from naslund behind the goal jan larsson reduced the lead to just before the end of nd period on a pp skated in unattacked in front of the goal and put the puck through pavoni s hole third period sweden equalized on a slap shot from renberg that trickled through pavoni s hole then another defensive mistake by the swedes waeger was allowed to skate around the swedish goal unattacked and from close range could make it hollenstein then scored on a on break away and put it top shelf with no chance for soderstrom switzerland goaltender reto pavoni renatio tosio defense rick tschumi martin steinegger sven leuenberger martin rauch sandro bertaggia patrick sutter samuel balmer forwards alfred luthi felix hollenstein roman waeger gil montandon roberto triulzi patrick howald christian weber andreas ton joerg eberle bruno erni thomas vrabec manuele celio russia canada st can kevin dineen garry galley can paul kariya eric lindros pp nd can eric lindros paul kariya shayne corson rus valeri karpov rd penalties rus min min can min referee anton danko czech republic attendance russia probably made their best game of the tourney but yet there wasn t enough to win against the effective canadians galley took a slap shot that found dineen by the far post and dineen just deflected the puck past trefilov in the russian goal then a power play goal after a couple of deflections eric lindros found kariya alone by the far post and kariya put the puck high over a sliding trefilov russia won the shots in the first period and they had the most of the scoring opportunities but they just couldn t score second period saw lindros scoring his th goal of the wc kariya entered the russian zone slammed on the break to get past his defenseman then made a nice pass to corson who just got the stick on the puck to deflect it to lindros who one timed the puck the russians then finally got their goal karpov broke in from the side and made a slap shot in tugnutt s top right hand corner player of the game in canada was voted paul kariya and for russia valeri karpov i agree the difference in this game was lindros and kariya and in part also tugnutt kariya had a far better game now than vs the swedes and he was very impressive kariya got the place in the line with lindros after mike gartner went out with a rib injury early in the first period lindros btw lead the point scoring with pts before this game pts ahead of the next player i e double as much as the next player among those kariya with amazing group b results finland czech republic st nd cze petr hrbek fin mika alatalo rd cze jiri dolezal cze martin hostak en penalties fin min cze min referee vincent moreno switzerland attendance germany usa st ger raimond hilger ger gerd truntschka ger ernst kopf ger michael rumrich ger benoit doucet nd rd usa derek plante ger dieter hegen usa craig johnson usa rob gaudreau penalties ger min usa min referee valeri bokarev russia attendance staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor la tied was que leads det leads cal toronto maple leafs detroit red wings leads series st period det lidstrom yzerman coffey pp nd period det fedorov sh det yzerman coffey chiasson pp det yzerman coffey sheppard tor mironov gill gilmour rd period tor gilmour anderson det ysebaert kozlov det drake kozlov kennedy powerplay opportunities maple leafs of red wings of shots on goal maple leafs red wings toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att st louis blues leads series chicago blackhawks st period stl hull brown janney pp stl lowry sh nd period none rd period none powerplay opportunities blues of blackhawks of shots on goal blues blackhawks st louis blues joseph shots saves chicago blackhawks belfour shots saves att los angeles kings series tied calgary flames st period lak carson nd period cal otto roberts macinnis cal yawney dahlquist ranheim cal reichel fleury pp cal nieuwendyk roberts musil cal otto dahl sh rd period lak carson granato shuchuk cal reichel fleury macinnis pp cal paslawski roberts nieuwendyk cal fleury macinnis nieuwendyk pp lak rychel blake lak kurri gretzky zhitnik pp cal suter skrudland berube powerplay opportunities kings of flames of shots on goal kings flames los angeles kings hrudey shots saves calgary flames vernon shots saves att winnipeg jets vancouver canucks leads series st period van ronning courtnall linden nd period van courtnall win domi king barnes rd period win numminen housley selanne pp van bure adams craven powerplay opportunities jets of canucks of shots on goal jets canucks winnipeg jets essensa shots saves vancouver canucks mclean shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	question goalie s equipment have the rules for goalies equipment changed it seems that e g glove has become bigger and bigger all the time and pads too and the goalies are wearing over size jerseys am i dreaming if you watch old photos or films let say about ten years back i think the difference is quite obvious who is an expert on this please let me know or have the goalies become bigger jarkko trouble in scoring
rec.sport.hockey	re kings even series at stauer shines in article rfbldinn qe abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes game report deleted it bad ref ing won t affect this series which should only go two more games all things being equal wrong the kings just put on an exibition of hustle team play and consistent pounding and took it back to calgary with the series tied at games each the final score was with the third goal an empty netter at of the third conacher this is not an official game report just my observations from the stands melrose made a wise decision and put stauber back in goal robb had something to prove and he did in stopping of while facing a fierce calgary attack there were numerous highlight film saves kings third and fourth lines rose to the occasion playing rough while avoiding bad penalties warren rychel scored the game winner early in the second period rookie defenseman alexi zhitnik scored the first from the blue line late in the first dave taylor is awesome he suffered a broken nose partway through the second pariod checked from behind into the boards by roberts who got and a game he came back late in the third and was on the ice when conacher scored the empty netter actually it was in the third period his return did bring a spark to the crowd and to the players who played awesome defense in the third the kings go to guys still are not producing no goals from kurri granato sandstrom or robitaille who have a total of points between them you forgot about gretzky if any of these guys start scoring the kings will be unstoppable if they continue the great defensive work as well mccreary sucks he called mcsorely for high sticking someone who was already on the ice and sandstrom for high sticking when he himself was already on the ice he missed many flagrant stick penalties including one from flame goalie jeff reese who followed granato out to almost the blue line where he cross checked him he called the game very inconsistently with a series of ticky tack penalties in the first and almost none in the third can t the nhl supply decent officiating i was sitting directly across the ice from ron and nancy reagan when the empty netter was scored nancy leapt out of her seat with both fists high in the air way to go nancy this series is still too close to call tuesday s game may be the deciding one i expect king might put vernon back in even though reese had two good games in la reese has historically been good in la this was only the second time he lost there this move would be good for the kings since vernon is such a sieve i am sure that stauber will get the call for the kings stauber will be in net on tuesday hopefully he will provide another stellar performance and earn the name robb stopper stauber the firswt two lines of the kings have to wake up while it is great to see you cannot depend on pat conacher and warren rychel for all of your offense i expect sandstrom granato and gretzky might be put back together on a line like they were early in the season this would leave kurri carson and luc as the second on paper these two lines look powerful let s see if they can make it real i believe this is how they are i know it is gretzky and sandstrom but he has been putting a number of people on left also the carson robataille kurri line once ignited will light the fire of the other lines hopefully go kings dvb it is evident that the scoring drought is getting to luc after his slight breakaway in the third i think he was steamed on the bench this emotion might help him break his streak also i have noticed blake has had a few really good chances to score but has fanned or shot wide is the injury still affecting him the e d g e stompkin tuba calpoly edu
rec.sport.hockey	re ettans nya indelning in article apr eua ericsson se euaaen eua ericsson se anders engwall writes om jag f rst tt saken r tt f r vi norra kiruna boden pite skellefte crif v nn s husum stersund antj rn sundsvall timr v stra mora g vle avesta uppsala k ping arvika grums rebro tv lag fr n v stra kvalserien vilka stra arlanda v sby vallentuna ster ker danderyd t by aik hammarby s dert lje t lje huddinge nyk ping roma s dra vita h sten m lndal bor s v stervik hanhals troja ljungby m rrum pantern tv lag fr n s dra kvalserien f r det f rsta r det principiellt fel att man har ndrat premisserna f r uppflyttning i efterhand f r det andra kan man ju undra varf r just stersund och v stervik skall f en fri sl ng ja i fallet stersund r det solklart en fix f r ovan n mnda problem med norrgruppen men v stervik r det m nne f r att nyk ping skall slippa spela i s der vilket de klagat ver vad tror ni man s ger i exempelvis tierp som kom a i stra kvalet kommentarer att man skulle bli tvyngen att ndra premisserna kunde man inte lista ut p f rhand huvudsak att man inte flyttar ner fel lag stersund var en solklar fix som sagt men v stervik att det beror p nyk ping tror jag inte p man kunde ju lika g rna flytta ner roma till s dra iaf om man g r efter bredgraderna mest r ttvist vore att l ta tierp och v stervik g ra upp men d skulle roma nyk pinks vara eller inte vara i stra ocks avg ras vad skulle de s ga om det det st rsta felet med rets indelning r exakt samma som f rra ret fast v rre det r inte r tvist indelat sportligt sett vallentuna var en match fr n att g upp till allsvenskan f rra ret ist llet gick g vle upp tror ni n n av dem lyckas lika bra i r aik hif ssk och hik ska sl ss om tv platser om man hadde placerat dessa i var sin division skulle de vara sj lvklara favoriter till en plats i allsvenskan men nu m ste tv ge vika var finns r ttvisan i det jag har h rt att hik har l mnat in en protest till f rbundet ang ende indelningen i stra mitt f rslag vore att l ta orna i varje division kvalspela om tv platser i allsvenskan och efter jul skulle man kunna sl ihop de fyra divisionerna till tv en s der och en norr p s s tt bestraffas inte ett lag som kommer fr n en trakt d r det finns m nga bra lag en kul grej som jag nskar att man inf rde r att l ta vinnaren i allsvenskan f spela i sm slutspelet det skulle bli en extra krydda till division ett ishockeyn om lagen k nde att de var inom r ckh ll till sm bucklan det skulle kanske p sikt ocks kunna minska skillnaderna mellan lag i elitserien och division ett vad s js anders engwall email anders engwall eua ericsson se ellemtel utvecklings ab voice lvsj sweden fax h ll dom som brygger puns ock ger pyanlektionor c a toll n marek marek repinski eos ericsson se man skall inte anv nda fr mmande ericsson telecom ab ord om man har en adekvat inhemsk system design division vokabul r disponibel sweden gunnar emanuel str ng gur pbbxvr jnf va fjrqvfu vg jbag uryc jvgu ebg
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes i m not even going to bother to reply to your ranting post the letter is addressed to gary bettman not you he can reply as he wishes not so your post is addressed to all i quote as she said the letter is addressed to bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content is an entirely different entity was addressed to all when she puts the letter in the mail i doubt it will say to all i figure she wanted to let people here see what was in it since it is a topic that interests a lot of folks here that s an entirely different purpose than sending the letter to bettman unfortunately and i guess i let you know didn t i you do not represent a large body of hockey fans by any standard you care to use to define large people constitutes nothing more than a tiny group of fanatics and is in no way representative of a large body of hockey fans on the internet let alone of one of the largest computer networks in the world the largest computer networks in the world phrase is a definition of the internet not a group as a whole that she claims to represent as for the business of whether or not it is large it is large compared to say the number of folks on r s h who are sending a letter to thank him for changing the names at least to this point and just for my own curiosity i thought i d look up the official definition of large in the dictionary it reads large having more than usual power capacity or scope exceeding most other things of like kind in quantity or size now i have no idea how many letters bettman may have gotten on the issue or how many people may have signed them people may be up there thereby validating definition i would also wager that the geographical range of signatures is quite large which would give it a large scope he might be impressed by the size of the list of names why would he be impressed with this unless it were large i am of course assuming that you actually agree with what you are writing and are not simply trying to be a pain about the whole issue to hear yourself speak i personally don t know whether or not i agree with the letter i have very mixed emotions about it i like the names as they are and don t think they make it that difficult to learn the game but there might be a shred of validity to the change paul w francisco in the shadow an angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response again i assume this is not just flame bait by roger but actually a truly held opinion in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes i would say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that i belong to and i don t share those views and i don t believe that the majority of posters on r s hockey share those views and so i have no intention of allowing them to simply go ahead without making my feelings on the subject clear thanks for speaking for all those who didn t feel it was important enough to say something themselves i wouldn t say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that you belong to it represents a subset that you don t belong to of a larger group which you do if only because this isn t a moderated group look there are several ways to state an opposing viewpoint three that come to mind are as follows say it subtly result it may not be clear say it directly yet politely result probably it will spark some interesting conversation say it directly and obnoxiously result validity goes right out the window i would agree that unwarranted use of said term is entirely immature you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will be used against you paul w francisco in the shadow an angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	re wings ogrodnick in article qfpfqak vot bpedd andrew cmu edu mike molloy mmaq andrew cmu edu writes i haven t seen any mention of ogrodnick yet in the box scores does anyone know if he s playing mike he s been out but he isn t injured he played well when he was put into the lineup at the end of the season murray has to sit somebody out though if the red wings hadn t played as well as they did in the first game he may have been in the second why should murray juggle players when the wings are dominating toronto like they are
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings in article r jsk v apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes paul fugu data io com paul brownlow writes wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl wood is fairly small for an enforcer type i mean fleury does a pretty good job and isn t that large but dody is no fleury and fleury is no enforcer an agitator for sure but fleury never has and never will have a fight which seems to be what you re saying wood is the closest fleury ever came to fighting was a game two years ago against los angeles there was a scrum and mcsorley pinched fleury s head under his arm fleury dropped his gloves and gave mcsorley a weak shot to the side of the head mcsorely knowing a good thing when he saw one popped fleury one right between the eyes end of fight fleury got ten stitches for his trouble the only player i can ever see theo fighting is cliff ronning and even then he d be giving up two inches and pounds alan
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles maybe because john madden doesn t pretend that his all madden team is the team of the best players maybe because john madden doesn t feel the need to denigrate players he doesn t choose for his all madden team maybe because madden actually demonstrates some knowledge about football when he broadcasts a game don cherry doesn t denigrate players except those who dive showboat wield their sticks as weapons while hiding behind visors or deliberating attempt to injure or aggravate the injuries of others not always true in fact in the case of doug gilmour he actually praises them europeans that do those things are scum in cherry s opinion canadian kids that do them are tough just like a real canadian ulf samuelsson cheap shots mark messier s ribs and don wants ulf s head doug gilmour breaks tomas sandstrom s arm and don says sandstrom had it coming methinks don is either very confused or just a bigot most likely the latter i used to like don cherry i thought he was great but i m starting to see his true colors redneck and the more i see of them the more i think he s just an asshole alan
rec.sport.hockey	makarov in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes i don t think the sharks should dig into the free agent market most of the good free agents will require quite a bit of compensation and set the sharks back as far as player development goes remember the sharks were unwilling to give up player s in addition to the million they offered for joe murphy and i think that s a good approach they tried to sign sergei makarov before this season because makarov wouldn t have required compensation matching the makarov offer was the only real mistake dave king has made this year i have to wonder about the intelligence of signing a year old who is obviously on the downside of his career to a year million contract risebrough matched the offer on king s request and makarov has spent the last quarter of the season in the press box because his work ethic just plain stinks not to mention that he s lost a step and can no longer get himself into position to make the nifty passes i think makarov will be available for free this offseason to anybody who agrees to pay his contract he s ineffective in calgary but he might be able to help a team like san jose with their shortage of talent if there s no takers and makarov doesn t show improvement in training camp i think the flames will just bite the bullet and buy out makarov s contract and release him with his current attitude he is a detriment to the team alan
rec.sport.hockey	more hart trophy stuff in article r bkvinn nm abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes when you think of the nhl who comes to mind gilmour gretzky mario ah did i mention mario if you said gretzky you haven t really been following along have you if you said gilmour you are a true maynard i don t even think the selection of the hart deserves serious discussion on this group it is a no brainer while i agree that lemieux deserves the hart it is far from a no brainer the hart trophy goes to the player most valuable to his team not to the best player in the league so your above arguement is really worthless the pens without mario are still a damn good hockey team the leafs without gilmour would have been fighting tampa bay for the rd pick like i said mario deserves it imho but it is a very close race and a gilmour victory would not surprise me i dislike doug gilmour with a passion but i must concede that he is extremely valuable to the leafs alan
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they didn t hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs what this team needs is a little fire under their butts reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt i think joe kocus should play every night he is a big physical guy and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its a big advantage to get the crowd going plus he helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen only to go slinking away when kocur steps in i think he is big asset but should be third line and special situation only play
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part the trades nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes acquired c marcus thuresson from n y islanders for rw brian mullen grade i b c it is not known yet what the impact overall of this trade would be as thuresson is not yet under contract to the sharks and does not appear to be ready to become so anytime soon mullen meanwhile has had a productive somewhat season with the islanders thuresson however does not appear to be a big scorer at all if my memory is right he had just points in just games in the swedish elite league in this season i didn t notice his name frequently at all in staffan s reports and he didn t make the national team either it does not appear to be a good sign marcus thuresson had goals assists points and pim in games this season for leksand in the swedish elite league this was only th in point scoring for leksand marcus born may ht cm wt kg is relatively young so he might still start producing but i think the sharks may have done a bad trade here staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re and you think espn shafted you in article bb bf rrhammer vm cmp ilstu edu rrhammer vm cmp ilstu edu writes like many others i too was watching the caps isles game when the went to the baseball game i too was pissed how could they interupt such an important game i understand about contracts but you would think they would have a clause in the contract concerning important games anyway us blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone in the u s and watched the game on abc however those of us who live in the central illinois area were subjected to watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected by the telecast did not get to see the game except through hawk vision this game had it been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown in the area since this television bull has got to stop we are not only being deprived of seeing games due to skyrocketing ticket prices but we are also being deprived of watching them on tv peace hammer i m familiar with the telethon situation an individual on compuserve was also victimized and was equally pissed that was a local television station contract which could not be broken for that item i strongly suggest you call that affiliate and vent your anger on them supposedly one station had told my friend that they have received hundreds of angry calls which will translate into far less incentive to pre empt hockey telecasts in future the contract was written when the pathetic wlaf was in that time slot tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re espn f ck up in article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes okay here s some gripe ing griping whatever i live in santa barbara for reference i think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind rest deleted espn never committed and i never saw advertised to a particular thursday game they had originally scheduled bos buf and that was somehow leaked on this net but to my knowledge espn never publicly released a schedule until monday when they announced pitt nj thursday and boston buffalo saturday tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure nesn owns the rights to bruin telecasts i suspect that nesn was only going to sell one telecast to espn remember espn only owns exclusive rights to the finals not the entire playoffs since espn bought the sca contract there are less wrangles to untie with showing the devils and penguins also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games i think the same broadcast rights factor comes into it plus they have no way of fitting western game times into their current schedule unless the nhl was willing to make a western club move up their game i think the nhl got as much as it could when it shuffled the deck for abc also does anyone have info on abc coverage for this sunday same exact coverage as last week pit nj game in the east chi stl in the central la cgy in the mountains and west robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re habs late in article apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation apparently i have my respect for the power of the hockey gods is preventing me from commenting on the above and for commenting on whether the guy damphousse was traded for is on vacation or not perhaps roger demonstrably in contempt of the hockey gods and paying for it dares a comment or two mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through no fuhr s rings out sparkle errey s and doesn t bob have rings mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r s q b hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes bruins have never come back to win after falling behind in their entire year history which doesn t mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the game playoff format but yes it looks dark for the b s what a disappointment still i think the problem is mental they needed the saves blue came up with perhaps he can offer something to mentally rally around who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too jan brittenson bson gnu ai mit edu
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions i m really impressed with bowman s coaching tactics he s had an answer for every move that brooks has thrown at the pens susan dart such as jake
rec.sport.hockey	re flames final kings destroyed vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes flames final score calgary l a things are back to where they belong gretzky didn t play kelly hrudey is his old self again let s hope the flames put the old timers away asap vlad the impaler yes these last couple of months the kinngs have failed to show up in about one game in five presumably last night was that one game in five jon
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired in article jgl apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes of course ferreira had also traded a number of veterans with marginal contributions before he was fired so it s not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let s also not forget that ferreira came this close to trading kelly kisio which if the rumors i ve heard are true was over the strong objections of other aspects of shark management and probably had a lot to do with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented gm imagine for a second where the sharks would be today if that fax machine hadn t jammed on the other hand i m hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again we have the benefit of hindsight let s say that in the view of the sharks upper management the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra i m inclined to take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him he s obviously the luckiest man in hockey wonder what sacrifice he made to the muse of fax his job i guess have fun gak richard stueven aha he has erected a multitude of new internet gak wrs com go offices and sent hither swarms attmail attmail gakhaus gak sharx of officers to harass our people cow palace h and eat out their substance
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca wrote who should get the hart gretzky not in a million years at least not this year he hasn t played all year yzerman though it would be nice i don t think he ll get it he s consistent but not well known thought he should be mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber i think he should become a stuntman after he retires jeez he ha s enough expericene falling down oope stick didn t come anywhe re near me gotta fall got to get a penalty against the other team it s the annual whine a thon with today s host jerry lewis by the way i am canadian play a little and watched hockey night in canada never missed a show not one of these well a my home team is in the finals and i was a hockey fan for ten minutes now give me a f king break with this mario is the best player ever what did gretzky die i wish bobby clarke and the broadstreet bullies were still around they d know what to do with a whouse like mario they d bounce him around like the puck not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario but if mario is going to complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real to complain about sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb you along with mario lemieux must be from another planet the only difference is that lemieux comes from the one with geo washington abe lincoln and many other great men and women of this world whereas you come from the one with david koresh yeah mario is good at drawing penalties but wouldn t you try do something you do claim to play to give your team an advantage i don t remember lemieux getting any diving penalties this year whereas many others did finally mario has never complained about being hit he knows it s part of the game he gets back by dishing out an even bigger hit to the same guy or just scoring a few goals or setting them up don t you have any compassion for a man who has gone through so much in his life george
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon of nyi and paul coffey of detorit are both hope this help anson
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions terence rokop writes richard j coyle writes that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory i don t really agree with this but it is an entirely different high at any rate the first cup the pens won i didn t think about anything else i just watched mario and all skate the thing around the ice now it seems to be more of a question whether or not thirty years from now young hockey fans may there be millions will still ask us what it was like to watch this team that s what they are playing for now but i was still as nervous as ever when the devils were blasting shots at barrasso in the final seconds of game three so the fun is far from over yet i m not bored either most people i know say that winning the second cup was better than the first but to me nothing will ever top that first one but i m every bit as excited this year and i am experiencing that inner calm to which susan originally referred inner calm is not boredom as far as the arena in general being boring well richard s got that right it s been that way all season i attribute it to a lot of new fans who just don t have the same spirit and knowledge as long time fans at last tuesday s game i overheard a man express surprise that a goaltender can get an assist anyone who follows sports with regularity knows that anything can happen at any time i m confident in the pens but i m also not stupid enough to think for one minute that it s impossible for new jersey to blow them out of this series i doubt that will happen but it s possible bored uh uh spoiled not in the least forgot what excitement is like living through that amazing streak wasn t exciting i don t take a darned thing for granted god look at chicago and i see no problem with quietly savoring all of this anyway it isn t gonna last forever and i intend to enjoy it while i can mom
rec.sport.hockey	nhl alltime scoring leaders here are the nhl s alltime leaders in goals and points at the end of the season again much thanks to joseph achkar carl notes an active player is a player that has scored at least one point the past season the points leaders follow the goal leaders if you find any mistakes please send me email all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm la marcel dionne det la nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr bobby hull chi wpg hfd mike gartner wsh min nyr mike bossy nyi guy lafleur mtl nyr que johnny bucyk det bos maurice richard mtl stan mikita chi frank mahovlich tor det mtl michel goulet que chi jari kurri edm la bryan trottier nyi pit gilbert perreault buf jean beliveau mtl lanny mcdonald tor col cgy jean ratelle nyr bos norm ullman det tor dino ciccarelli min wsh det darryl sittler tor phi det mario lemieux pit glenn anderson edm tor alex delvecchio det mark messier edm nyr dale hawerchuk wpg buf rick middleton nyr bos steve yzerman det peter stastny que nj rick vaive van tor chi buf joe mullen stl cgy pit yvan cournoyer mtl dave taylor la steve shutt mtl la denis savard chi mtl bill barber phi brian propp phi bos min gary unger tor det stl atl la edm rod gilbert nyr steve larmer chi john ogrodnick det que nyr other active players bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj pat lafontaine nyi buf brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor tim kerr phi nyr hfd bobby smith min mtl brett hull cgy stl luc robitaille la mike foligno det buf tor dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi paul coffey edm pit la det brent sutter nyi chi pat verbeek nj hfd ron francis hfd pit cam neely van bos ray bourque bos bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy doug gilmour stl cgy tor rick tocchet phi pit kevin dineen hfd phi tomas sandstrom nyr la dale hunter que wsh ryan walter wsh mtl van brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kirk muller nj mtl joe nieuwendyk cgy jimmy carson la edm det all time nhl scoring leaders denotes active player wayne gretzky edm la gordie howe det hfd marcel dionne det la nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr stan mikita chi bryan trottier nyi pit johnny bucyk det bos guy lafleur mtl nyr que gilbert perreault buf alex delvecchio det jean ratelle nyr bos mark messier edm nyr norm ullman det tor peter stastny que nj jean beliveau mtl dale hawerchuk wpg buf bobby clarke phi paul coffey edm pit la det denis savard chi mtl jari kurri edm la mario lemieux pit bobby hull chi wpg hfd bernie federko stl mike bossy nyi michel goulet que chi darryl sittler tor phi det mike gartner wsh min nyr frank mahovlich tor det mtl ray bourque bos dave taylor la denis potvin nyi henri richard mtl steve yzerman det bobby smith min mtl rod gilbert nyr glenn anderson edm tor lanny mcdonald tor col cgy rick middleton nyr bos dave keon tor hfd ron francis hfd pit bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj brian propp phi bos min andy bathgate nyr tor det pit maurice richard mtl larry robinson mtl la dino ciccarelli min wsh det steve larmer chi joe mullen stl cgy pit bobby orr bos chi brad park nyr bos det butch goring la nyi bos bill barber phi dennis maruk cal cle wsh min ivan boldirev bos cal chi atl van det yvan cournoyer mtl dean prentice nyr bos det pit min ted lindsay det chi tom lysiak atl chi dale hunter que wsh john tonelli nyi cgy la chi que jacques lemaire mtl larry murphy la wsh min pit john ogrodnick det que nyr doug wilson chi sj doug gilmour stl cgy tor red kelly det tor pierre larouche pit mtl hfd nyr bernie geoffrion mtl nyr steve shutt mtl la phil housley buf wpg wilf paiment kc col tor que nyr buf pit peter mcnab buf bos van nj brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor pit martin det bos chi van pat lafontaine nyi buf ken linesman phi edm bos gary unger tor det stl atl la edm ken hodge sr chi bos nyr neal broten min wayne cashman bos rick vaive van tor chi buf borje salming tor det jean pronovost pit atl wsh peter mahovlich det mtl pit dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi rick kehoe tor pit rick macleish phi hfd pit det thomas steen wpg other active players al macinnis cgy luc robitaille la mike foligno det buf tor brent sutter nyi chi mark howe hfd phi det kirk muller nj mtl tim kerr phi nyr hfd adam oates det stl bos randy carlyle tor pit wpg ryan walter wsh mtl van pat verbeek nj hfd brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kelly kisio det nyr sj brett hull cgy stl rick tocchet phi pit dan quinn cgy pit van stl phi min scott stevens wsh stl nj tomas sandstrom nyr la tom fergus bos tor van dave babych wpg hfd van mike ridley nyr wsh laurie boschman tor edm wpg nj ott keith acton mtl min edm phi murray craven det phi hfd kevin dineen hfd phi rob ramage col stl cgy tor min tb mike krushelnyski bos edm la tor gary suter cgy pierre turgeon buf nyi troy murray chi wpg cam neely van bos geoff courtnall bos edm wsh stl van vincent damphousse tor edm mtl jimmy carson la edm det peter zezel phi stl wsh tor guy carbonneau mtl mark osborne det nyr tor wpg chris chelios mtl chi dave poulin phi bos ray ferraro hfd nyi russ courtnall tor mtl min joe nieuwendyk cgy john maclean nj
rec.sport.hockey	now if espn wanted to show a good game they could put on a quebec montreal game talk a bout areivalry opps rivalry roland roland
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec i dunno about hat i have friends up there on genie who are now saying that ottawa s gone soft on daigle and is thinking hard about pronger daigle has shown an attitude the latter part of this season many folks havne t liked and after coming back from his second multi game suspension for being stupid he s really tanked in his performance his stock is dropping like a rock also remember that a lot of teh draft st stuff comes from the assumption he ll be traded to quebec for lots of prospects it s not clear that quebec would really be willing to pay a lot for him given his current status he s still first round but i don t consider him a first pick lock by any means at this point it s also possible that the senators are posturing to try to bring down his signing price since daigle has been taking some lindros lessons during thos suspensions imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya no kariya won t go in the first three for a very simple reason he s not leaving college and i don t believe any of the expansion teams are going to use a first for someone who won t be around for another year or two not when there is equally good or almost as good stuff available that can make an immediate impact san jose seems to be leaning heavily towards niedermayer for that reason kariya could go th or th unless a team can convince him to leave school early which i doubt my cut on things as they stand today draft order ottawa daigle if not pronger san jose niedermayer unless ottawa skips daigle then it s open it depends on if the sharks can get a deal for him i don t believe they draft him to keep him tampa bay whoever ottawa doesn t take or maybe koslov chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes gaetz may or may not be back next year but in either event the sharks have to pick up others gaetz won t be back there s been rumors he was officially released right at the end of the season when his contract expired but i haven t seen confirmation it was clear from my talks with the sharks doctors that he wasn t going to make it for a while and the sharks would have to sign him to a contract which given his problems competing at the ihl level this spring doesn t make sense chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins joe pitt edu joseph b stiehm writes come on boston where the hell are you seven wins in a row and what choke ah well another brian sutter team is ground into the dirt with intensity during the regular season and then is burned out by playoff time yah fuhr has been awesome so far but really you d think sutter would have learned his lesson about pushing his team too far during the regular season stuart esrock bowling green state u how bout them blues
rec.sport.hockey	re camera work on televised games in article apr vax cit cornell edu yecx vax cit cornell edu writes is it just me or is the camera work on some of these games really sad i can t remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked in the corner while the puck was being fired on goal in fact i think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other in the corner now the last time i watched a football game they didn t show the lineman going at it while the running back turned the corner for a touchdown is it just me greg espn has been trying various things to get away from the follow the puck concept of televising hockey games one of the main problems with hockey is that it is very difficult to show everything that is going on more happens away from the puck than in any other sport except maybe football and they can do iso s on football players to be shown between plays the problem of course is that sometimes you get something worthwhile other times you get burned tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re joseph and blues shut down warthawks blues up cr cleveland freenet edu jim schenk writes one last point darryl sutter is getting badly out coached by bob berry the madder darryl gets the more he reminds me of brian the hawks are quickly loosing thier focus i don t think the blues will win in but you never know not to sutter bash or anything since i idolized them as players you sure would think the sutters would learn something about burning out their teams in the regular season just too much intensity during the regular season i earlier posted a note about brian and got to thinking after i read this item gee both sutters won their divisions and now both have lost home ice advantage and are getting smoked in their opening series in the playoffs kind of makes you wonder bottom line man it is great to be smoking the warthawks agreed jim this has been damn sweet so far about the only thing that comes close to this is shutting up all the maple laugh fans detroit has completely kicked their asses so far but i will stick with the blues for providing the best playoff tonic so far stuart esrock bowling green state u go you blues
rec.sport.hockey	playoff consecutive loss record with the recent demise of the chicago blawkhawks much to my delight i noticed their game playoff losing streak to the pens last year and now to the blues and i am wondering what the nhl record for consecutive losses is if there even is one i m pretty sure that the hawks have at least a game losing streak since they ve had to have lost a series since their last championship whenever that was basically i need something else to rag on my hawks fan friend with mike the insomniaced yes rush marillion emerson lake and palmer genesis dream theater mike weintraub aka jvi on irc sig quote du jour mweintr american edu life is like a scissors paper jedi wave cerf net stone game none of the answers the american university is always right but sometimes washington dc each one is neil peart rush go philadelphia phillies and vancouver canucks down to go
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca writes who should get the hart gretzky not in a million years at least not this year he hasn t played all year yzerman though it would be nice i don t think he ll get it he s consistent but not well known thought he should be mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb i m not going to bother reprinting your pathetic excuse for a post mario fan or not you have to respect what he can do with a blade as for the hart trophy i guess winning the scoring title after being out twenty four days with cancer then leading his team to the presidents trophy and breaking the win streak record in the process shouldn t even qualify him for the award maybe next year he ll tend a few games when barrasso needs a rest be realistic mario has earned every one of his accolades and deserves all the attention that he gets lose the jealous attitude and you may start enjoying hockey at its finest maze
rec.sport.hockey	belfour and roenick playoff houdinis have belfour and roenick done another disappearing act at chips are down time when i saw them it looked like the blackhawks defense might carry them along way in the playoffs well they held st louis to shots in game and lost looks like maybe keenan had has some insight to me
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr alleg edu ballb reis alleg edu brett ball writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they didn t hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs what this team needs is a little fire under their butts reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt i think joe kocus should play every night he is a big physical guy and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its a big advantage to get the crowd going plus he helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen only to go slinking away when kocur steps in i think he is big asset but should be third line and special situation only play this is fast becoming a game without the goons i admit kocur may get the fans into the game but surely they would rather see broten taking a pass from kovalev and scoring a breakaway goal to put the rangers up magic goals in the third period rather than seeing kocur take another stupid penalty and the rangers giving up another powerplay goal the rangers need another top flight center who can take the pressure off messier and the first line nemchinov is a perfect third line center so who goes beezer or richter kurt
rec.sport.hockey	binghampton rangers playoff games does anyone know if msg will televise any of the binghampton rangers playoff games even taped replays would be nice
rec.sport.hockey	re pens broadcasters in article mfqk o awn sskqm andrew cmu edu nathan robert peters np andrew cmu edu writes rumor has it here in pittsburgh that there is going to be a penguins broadcasting change before next season according to the rumor the kbl leadership the company the broadcasts the pen s games wants to limit loved broadcaster mike lange to radio only and hire don cherry as his broadcast partner this would mean paul stiegerwald would be fired good riddance does anyone know anything about this lange is a fun broadcaster to listen to and pens games wouldn t be the same without him also i hear cherry doesn t have high opinions of lemieux ulf sammuelsson or jaromir jagr how is he supposed to broadcast their games i believe that the large number of digits on his paycheck and it would not be binary would help don to be a fan of ulf jaro and mario nate peters lifetime penguins fan even from before they were the best kevin l stamber purdue university top reasons the pittsburgh penguins won the patrick division a strong desire to get the cup back to your neighborhood eat n park where there s always something special cooking
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense i m personally expecting moog blue played fairly decent alright spectacular at times in his a game but moog has the experience what did blue have going for him nothing what would happen in a tie game the prssure is then on the goal tender to insure that you keep the puck out at the very least until your team scores blue didn t face that kind of pressure on tuesday the bruins will come out storming that is for sure i really think that this series is up to buffalo boston except for two bad passes in game one really hasn t played that bad as a believer is statistics you know that your going to get the puck by fuhr sooner or later just keep shooting there game plan is sound but they need to take the lead first and control the tempo imho pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes the probability is that the oilers are not going anywhere gerald look at what happened to the stars they are off to dallas pocklington has chosen this moment to make his last stand is because he is at the moment of maximum advantage the provincial government is months away from a provincial election it is the moment when he has maximum power to convince northlands to give him a better arena deal or a better purchase price and it is before the nhl s new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing gerald the alberta election is slated fou june unless something re ally goes wrong this time pocklington could end up being the embarassment of klein if he goes ahead with his ultimatum pocklington is many things stupid is not one of them gerald people still have an axe to grind with this guy i cannot see him staying for long he can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price if edmonton doesn t but the people in edmonton won t budge trust me on this one edmonton has already up its international airport and surrendered supremacy to calgary and over the next few years edmonton is going to take a hard hit from government cutbacks it will screw itself beyond recogniton if it manages to find a way to lose its hockey team too because northlands wants to continue to use the oilers to subsidize horse racing northlands won t budge ccording to one of the board members bruce campbell however in this case about the long term financial viability of the oilers the fact is that pocklington is basically right regardless of who owns the team and it is right to provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions of dollars in losses or becomes habitually uncompetitive because of lack of money i haven t heard anything but attendance at the coliseum was the lowest this year hint hint remeber what i said about a personal vendetta sather has done his job the oilers are poised to be competitive again very soon al strachan one of the most knowledgeble hockey writers in canada in a post mortem of the oilers season in the globe and mail recently agrees with me gerald don t blame sather this battle between the peole and pocklington started in and got worst when pocklington sold gretzky there were days when you can shake the hand of pocklington when he was respectalbe i use to do so in season but those days are goe gerald btw when following up please delete name of posting writer dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs now favoured in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year potvin was solid and wendel completely dominated probert gilmour as usual was the best player on the ice and to those who claim that andreychuk fades in the playoffs please take note andreychuk is averaging a goal a game stars andreychuk goals wendel all over probert probert all over everyone else todd gill also played an excellent game we can t say enough about doug gilmour when he is right all is well gilmour brings to mind davey keon from the previous leaf dynasty predictions so far on track nyi over buffalo and leafs over la kings leafs over nyi in the final i can t let this pass if the islanders get past pitts assuming the isles beat the caps god willing them i m sorry the isles will crush the leafs flame shields up of course no one asked me i always interject my opinions on matters i have no concern over go islanders down to go go jets for cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re bernie nicholls what a man from matthew rush but he s starting to push it over the edge imho of course holik s chop to barrasso s neck wasn t too sportsmanlike either it seems that he was following the the only way to beat the penguins is to injure them philosophy it s pretty obvious that holik s hitting barrasso was an accident he was even apologizing for it immediately before the penguins all jumped on him ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re hawks in article netnews upenn edu ldecock mail sas upenn edu luke decock wrote the only player the hawks have lost because they screwed up is peluso the hapless blues lost stevens and gave away oates okay so the blues won this you must be kidding right in losing stevens the blues got shanahan and kept joseph then they traded oates for janney as a hawks fan you have got to respect those hapless names lets see who scored the game winning overtime goal in the th game luke decock ldecock mail sas upenn eu david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	fuhr deserves credit was sabres sweep fuhr s role in article revcrinneij shelley u washington edu lzuo byron u washington edu joseph writes in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes many people have suggested that fuhr s play is the only reason that the sabres beat the bruins while fuhr was a critical factor i would not overlook the fact that the sabres finally got some scoring from people other than mogilny and lafontaine khmylev sweeney hawerchuck etc indeed lafontaine played hurt and didn t score many goals also the team played better defense although not great than in the regular season fuhr deserves a lot of credit but not all of it robert a i agree with this i also think fuhr s contribution for sabres s win is just the same as many palyers in the team mogilny had six goals in four games including two goals for the great comeback in the final win after fuhr had left the key for sabres s win over boston is whole team s strong commitment as an underdog and all their talent players including mogilny and fuhr i think that grant fuhr deserves more credit than that while it s true that the entire sabres team played very well i still believe that if it wasn t for grant fuhr the series would now be tied he virtually stole games and for the sabres in both of these games fuhr stood on his head to give the sabres the chance to win especially in game fuhr made a series of huge stops in the third period when the score was tied even in game when the sabres won the score seemed to indicate that the sabres dominated however if it hadn t been for fuhr the sabres wouldn t have been up i think it was through the nd period and the bruins wouldn t have had to open up the game thereby allowing mogilny to score the third goal on a breakaway to salt away the game there is no doubt in my mind that fuhr was the critical factor in the victory in my opinion neely oates and juneau played as well as lafontaine mogilny and hawerchuk the sabres did get extraordinary efforts from hannan sweeney wood and khmylev compared to that of the bruins checkers however the bruins defense imo played better than the sabres defense the sabres have ken sutton playing a regular shift afterall the difference in the series was fuhr who outplayed andy moog gary go sabres
rec.sport.hockey	re minnesota shame in article c xpu md constellation ecn uoknor edu hunter nsslsun nssl uoknor edu steve hunter writes i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging opinions please well as a hockey fan i think it s terrible it s one thing to say hey let s give a hockey team to cities that don t have one that s fine it s entirely another to say okay let s take a team from a thriving hockey town and move it of course none of us will ever know the real inside story but from what i know a group of minneapolis businessmen told green repeatedly that they would purchase the remaining season tickets to get to the level that green wanted yet he refused every time it s pretty obvious that he was determined to get out of minneapolis at any cost and use the season tickets thing as an excuse i was fortunate enough to get to the penultimate game and the fans were great people were tailgating and playing roller hockey in the parking lot before the game the attendance was so full as to have sro and the whole atmosphere in the centre was terrific minnesota is hockey usa how the nhl can so blithely let the major league team from there move away is beyond me i only hope they get a new team soon just my ali ali procrastination lemer i gave nhl commissioner gary bettman a puck columbia university nyc once he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix ctr columbia edu open it pat williams gm orlando magic be kind to animals hug a hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes hey everyone didja hear that we re fanatics now cool can we get our own acre compound replete with weapon and ammo caches who wants a barbeque ali i can t believe sh t like this gets any attention in this group during the playoffs ali you re a blabbering moron at least you could ve waited till the end of the playoffs to start your dumb letter campaign ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results concrete well i got the scores for sat s games ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on sat baltimore binghamton rochester utica springfield providence series stati plural of status adirondack defeated cdi springfield defeated providence binghamton tied w baltimore rochester defeated utica st john s leads moncton cape breton defeated fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup playoff schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence springfield gm providence springfield gm springfield providence gm springfield providence springfield wins series cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore binghamton gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton baltimore gm baltimore binghamton gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica rochester ot gm rochester utica gm rochester utica gm rochester utica ot gm rochester utica rochester wins series moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton gm moncton st john s ot gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton ot gm cape breton won bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p canada czech republic russia finland sweden usa italy germany switzerland france austria norway april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals a b a b april quarterfinals a b a b april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	wc results april world championships in germany group a results russia switzerland st rus alexei yashin rus alexei yashin nd rus ilia biakin rd rus andrei khomutov rus ilia biakin rus sergei sorokin penalties rus min min game penalty swi min referee rob hearn usa attendance canada austria st can shayne corson can rod brind amour can paul kariya can gerry galley can eric lindros can rod brind amour nd can eric lindros can eric lindros rd can brian savage can brian benning can geoff sanderson penalties can min aut min attendance usa france st fra antoine richer usa adam burt usa rob gaudreau usa jeff lazaro nd usa adam burt rd usa shjon podein usa rob gaudreau penalties usa min fra min referee darren loraas canada attendance finland norway st nd rd fin juha riihijarvi fin kari harila penalties fin min nor min referee sven erik sold sweden attendance the best goal scorers eric lindros can rod brind amour can dieter hegen ger andrei khomutov rus geoff sanderson can ilia biakin rus adam burt usa viacheslav bykov rus jiri dolezal cze mike gartner can rob gaudreau usa patrik juhlin swe frank pajonkowski fra bernd truntschka ger jarkko varvio fin alexei yashin rus some wc stats fastest goal in a wc game after first face off seconds steve larmer canada in a game vs sweden ended boris michailov ussr most consecutive wc games without a loss ussr ussr canada ussr canada staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re if oilers go to hamilton in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat writes if the oilers move to hamilton what division will they play in tom moffat victoria b c canada as a guess hamilton would be put into the midwest with either winnipeg or dallas moving to the pacific bill b hart macsch com
rec.sport.hockey	re minnesota shame i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging norman green claims that he has lost money over the last three years that he has owned the team when he bought the team it seemed kind of obvious that he was going to have to deal with a few years in the red before the team started making a profit again he gave the impression that he was willing to do so he claimed two years ago that the team needed to average only fans per game in order to pull a profit but this season the team averaged fans despite increasd ticket prices i think the team s attendence and play was clearly in an upward trend which leaves me dumbfounded as to how he could ignore that in deciding to move he was even offered the many concessions he rudely demanded such as guaranteed season ticket sales cheap rent at the other two arenas in town etc oh well i guess the bottom line is green wanted immediate huge returns in dallas and wasn t willing to wait another year or so in mn dallas gave green a pretty stellar deal to play there although i feel minnesota s was quite reasonable and he also has some cronies down there as well all this means is that minnesota is without an nhl team for a year or two too bad for the nhl kea
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article c p q unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers writes mkr stud hsn no morten kristiansen writes read this all you canucks fan out there winnipeg are going to kick vancouvers butts so badly they are not going to be able to sit down for weeks and no this is not a joke a prediction before the fourth game in winnipeg winnipeg vancouver selanne steen score a couple of goals each winnipeg to win stanley cup playoffs to all you jets fanatics ha ha ha to normal jets fans it was a pretty good fourth game more physical play than i ve seen in the first three games these moronic posts that have continued throughout the year about how the jets will cremeate the canucks and selanne will smash bure into the boards is so full of it why don t you take a cue fromm daryl and just wait till its over before you make more of a fool of yourself i m not going to predict anything about the canucks they are up and are coming back home but i m not going swing any it around until the series is wrapped up tony bravo tony i too am sick of all the mindless fanatical blind faith jets fans who could prpbably predict the end of the world more accurately than the coutcome of a playoff series now i will admit that i am a mindless fanatica blind faith canucks fan but unlike those from winterpeg i do not need to vent my spleen upon the world as to how great my team is i know i have confidence in them and that s enough granted the jets finished the season hot and the canucks were having trouble but vancouver has built themselves a reputation for being a playoff team just ask any flames fan they may not win every series but they alway fight to the end i ll admit that last year was not great but if they combine the work ethic of the past with the new tallent of the present they will be tough to beat note i did not say they would pummel every team they meet and destroy the greatest player playing today now like any canucks fan i would love to see them take the cup i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe and a shot at detroit i can t see them losing to st louis if pittsburgh makes it to the cup i d have to put my money on them yes even if they re facing the canucks if buffalo montreal or quebec beat pittsburgh i d choose the winner of vancuover and detroit to take the cup oh and one parting note for the jets fans just how many times has winnepeg made it to the finals go canucks greg devorski unfortunately helped to taint an otherwise brilliant display by maclean the canucks tied up the jets so tightly that i thought that they were mailing them btw greg next time don t fall asleep in geography class it s pretty sad when a fellow in norway can spell winnipeg properly and a guy in north america can t one more thing how long has vancouver been in the nhl how many championships do they have oh yeah and i can go to the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners my nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once as many times as the rockin town of kenora has won it daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	caps postseason fortunes okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first year that the caps finally made it to the third round but before under brian i noticed that every other year the caps got to the second round and the years in between they didn t make it past the first round is this trend continuning the admiral a hopeless caps fan p s we still remember that ot loss to the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy
rec.sport.hockey	faq for this group could someone please tell me how i can access the faq for this group i m relatively new and would like to read it but although i ve seen it mentioned i ve yet to see it posted is it archived somewhere or does someone post it to the group on a regular basis or is it distributed on demand i d appreciate any help anyone can give me thanks in advance mary p s please respond via email as the articles expire within hours on my mail system and i don t always get a chance to read everything thanks mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu go rangers next year of course
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs vs wings in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes in article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes potvin by the way has played very well he kept toronto in the game last night during those penalties in the first period by making great saves but they did end up getting to him in the second the guy has a gaa of in the playoffs and he s played very well hahahahahaa what a joke did you watch the games
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs vs wings in article bb b lmarsha cms cc wayne edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes in article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes in last nights game toronto received five penalties detroit none if which game were you watching didn t you see the third period when the wings had penalties called on them and then a delayed penalty the leafs had a man advantage for about a minute and a man advantage for another minute or two and the leafs still couldn t score and i wonder how the leafs scored a powerplay goal if according to you they never had a powerplay in the detroit paper today it said there were penalties called in last night s game and you re saying detroit had none of those penalties i m guessing you only watched the first period i have to admitt the leafs did get alot of penalties in that period where as the wings didn t get many if any at all haven t looked at the box scores yet but the ref more than made up for it in the third period laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings my apologies for the typo i meant the wings had power plays in the first period and the leafs none as well my point isn t that the refs were biased just that they were calling a lot of penalties which works to the benefit of the wings having the ref call a whole bunch of penalties against one team then calling a bunch against the other to make up for it takes a lot away from what could have been a great game
rec.sport.hockey	switzerland at wc what did happen to the swiss team last year they reached the semi final and now after matches no points and even no goals after the against italy it seems they lost any hope and were overrun by the russian team now it seems that they have to work hard not to be relegated to the b level does anybody know if this wc is the qualification tournement for the olympic games in lillehammer or are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel
rec.sport.hockey	re cbc canadian for espn in article apr uwovax uwo ca uwovax uwo ca writes hooray i hear on tsn that the jets have won a game selanne getting a hat trick of course here in god s country read ontario i couldn t see that game nor any other in the van wpg series so far because our beloved cbc figures no one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve so far on monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked up winnipeg vancouver they didn t tonight you guessed it toronto detroit the news not the end of the jets game then calgary la so if it s hockey night in canada why can t this ontarian see one of the two series with two canadian teams is this too much to ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca i d like to echo these sentiments this is the worst coverage i can ever remember seeing on cbc as soon as the game ends i can count to and by that time they ve signed off the air no post game interviews no updating of late scores nothin tsn is really putting cbc to shame i only hope the later round coverage improves i mean who really wants to see cbc primetime news instead of hockey my darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.hockey	re stewart homered the wings in article andy bgsu edu m bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes roger maynard wrote once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year perhaps it was the most exciting game played yet that you have seen for most of us who watch teams around the league with interest and objectivity it was nowhere near the most exciting game paul stewart called the single worst game i ve seen this year federov s major was obvious and i don t dispute it however chaisson s penalty shouldn t even have been a penalty let alone a major and a game misconduct the minute game misc call is for high sticking only there is no blood penalty just because chaisson barely touched the poor sap and he hit the dasher and bled profusely doesn t mean it is a penalty unfortunately the instant replay is not used on hits at first i immediately thought and a game because the hit looked much more severe from an intent to injure perspective than it was after seeing the replay i d say it deserved minutes for boarding it was careless any way you slice it if stewart had replay i do not think chaisson would have gotten and the game in the second period behind potvin probert had the puck and was going to get out front and was tackled i couldn t believe the no call this no call was bullshit i agree i admire stewart for letting them go but probert looked up saying where the hell is the penalty i ve never seen probert whine either he doesn t need to now if probie decides to put wendel through the boards he s probably gone right i don t remember who on the leafs touched the puck on racine s shot towards the end of the game seconds left but stewart called it out of play last touched by detroit everybody in the garden including the linesmen knew it yzerman protested but stewart just laughed and really homered the wings this was also bullshit but once again no replay it was rouse btw i m really pissed that the linesmen didn t correct the call either it s b s when the officials refuse to admit they made a mistake but when it all comes down to it wings played like shit yes the calls you describe should not have the difference in a detroit loss i picked the leafs to win game on emotion and adrenalin but the wings have no excuses for game they should be the superior team the call that pissed me off the most was anderson getting for putting his stick in somebody s eye that was the most dangerous stick infraction i have seen in a long time and everybody in the damn league knows he s an asshole when it comes to stickwork four lousy minutes bullshit call murray should send the tape in or a wing should hammer the living shit out of him dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	canada after preliminary round at world champioships team canada defeated russia to finish the priliminary round unbeaten at scoring for the canadians were kevin dineen of the flyers eric lindros also of the flyers and paul cariya of the maine black bears cariya has put on quite a show at the worlds he is sure to be drafted in the top this summer at the nhl entry draft canada defeated italy and austria before meeting the russians on sunday the canadians now face finland in the quarter finals on tuesday kevin white white cc hollandc pe ca holland college ch town pei canada
rec.sport.hockey	leafs what happened how did the leafs turn it around i couldn t get the leaf games on the weekend in ca did the leaf defense wise up overnight did the leafs get in the slot or was it just fluke goals in a goalie duel did the wings turn off the jets or muscle what gives here i caught game on satellite i figured my leafs were washed this is a major turnaround very few predicted this how how how did it happen wing and leaf perspectives welcomed jake
rec.sport.hockey	re caps moving in berger chaos cs brandeis edu berger chaos cs brandeis edu writes i ve heard rumors recently from reliable sources that abe polin the moron who owns the washington capitals is looking to move the team after this season or next milwaukee was mentioned as the team s potential destination the person who told me this is strongly affiliated with the nhl and has been extremely accurate in the past with news of this sort does anyone know if this is so or has heard anything of the sort with baltimore s ahl team gone that would leave the area with only an echl franchise in baltimore not good thanks david why dc baltimore is one of the top media markets the only thing the nhl seems to care about these days they ve been doing far better than the nba bullets at the gate for the last five years the team has been a perennial contender and fan support has been good to excellent why should pollin move to city that s five times smaller but has as many teams in other pro sports i don t get it david marcu
rec.sport.hockey	finland norway in wc finns had to do their best last night when they played against norway in world champs after two periods the score was still this game was quite much similar to the first game finland played against france the norwegian goalie was very good and a bit lucky too in the third period juha riihij rvi scored from a rebound the time was around mins or so the second goal was scored by kari harila who shot straight from a faceoff behind the nowwegian goalie saku koivu the year old center got his first point of this tournament saku koivu played very well througout the game and he was awarded the best player of the game prize despite the fact that he is quite small in size he handles the puck very well and is a fast skater i think that we will hear from this guy in the future
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in catcherc j f netcom com catcher netcom com paul w francisco writes as she said the letter is addressed to bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content is an entirely different entity was addressed to all when she puts the letter in the mail i doubt it will say to all i figure she wanted to let people here see what was in it since it is a topic that interests a lot of folks here that s an entirely different purpose than sending the letter to bettman and it is a damn good thing that she did post it since she claims to represent people in rec sport hockey unfortunately the largest computer networks in the world phrase is a definition of the internet not a group as a whole that she claims to represent as her sole purpose in mentioning the net as steve gallichio has already pointed out is to lend weight to her points through association with the internet there is no other reason to mention the internet this is misrepresentation and if the internet was a private corporation alison would be leaving herself wide open to all kinds of civil suits for the business of whether or not it is large it is large compared to say the number of folks on r s h who are sending a letter to thank him for changing the names at least to this point and just for my this is not a letter it is a petition claiming to represent a large proportion of rec sport hockey users and by implication a significant number of internet users names can in no way be considered a large proportion of rec sport hockey which while we have no way of counting actual readership is accessible to hundreds of thousands of people persons is no more than a fly s fart in a windstorm own curiosity i thought i d look up the official definition of large in the dictionary it reads large having more than usual power capacity or scope exceeding most other things of like kind in quantity or size gee you looked up large in the dictionary what next two syllable words now i have no idea how many letters bettman may have gotten on the issue or how many people may have signed them people may be up there thereby validating definition i would also wager that the geographical range of signatures is quite large which would give it a large scope let me suggest that the only place you are likely to envy the magnitude of is when you are looking for ways to beef up your iq scores he might be impressed by the size of the list of names why would he be impressed with this unless it were large as i said he might be impressed by the size of the list of names but it would have to be considerably larger but even this definition does not account for the original context from which you lifted this sentence i personally don t know whether or not i agree with the letter i have very mixed emotions about it i like the names as they are and don t think they make it that difficult to learn the game but there might be a shred of validity to the change well then what the hell is your point you don t really know if you have an opinion about the hockey issue but you do know that you don t like me is that it cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems to be an inner calm that i ve never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have so much confidence in the team this year we re savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that s a good way to put it it s a quiet confidence i don t feel like i have to defend this team anymore the devils are a puzzle to me they have long been one of the few teams i always dreaded playing their d isn t quite what it used to be but they still usually play us pretty tough i just can t figure it out at least last night they mounted an attack watching some of the devils players being interviewed i could see in their faces and eyes that they really don t have any confidence they are left speechless when asked what more they can to do to beat the pens they act as though they know it s a hopeless task bernie nichols was interviewed after game on the late news he was shaking his head in disbelief over barrasso saying that tommy is like another defenseman out there and how difficult it is playing against him then he got this far away look on his face his voice started trailing off and he said it just isn t right it just isn t fair and he tried to muster a smile i m really impressed with bowman s coaching tactics he s had an answer for every move that brooks has thrown at the pens as far as coaching goes a pens islanders match up should be pretty good one guy i feel sorry for in all of this so far is chris terreri i m sure tom barrasso knows how he feels for so long tommy would look up and not have a teammate in sight terreri s teammates really left him out in the cold in the first two games mom
rec.sport.hockey	flames final stats and playoff news news for the first time all season the flames are now injury free the only player remaining on the limp is center carey wilson who even when healthy is not a major part of the team trent yawney did not score a goal all season until the last regular season game against san jose he potted his first of the year in that game and has also scored goals in both game and game against los angeles thoughts on game the flames played horribly in dropping the first game of their series with los angeles on sunday afternoon they seemed more interested in throwing big hits than in scoring goals they physically dominated the kings but that was the only area they dominated in the game plan was to rush the net and try and take advantage of a young inexperienced l a defence and the shaky kings goaltending but those plans fell by the wayside while the flames conducted a steady march to the penalty box particularily stupid was theoren fleury taking a five minute major and a game misconduct for slamming warren rychel s face into the dasher while rychel was on his knees goaltender mike vernon played well and could not really be faulted for the loss despite his well publicized poor record in afternoon games he got very little support from his defence in clearing the front of the net and sweeping away rebounds in fact marty mcsorley s goal actually went in off chris dahlquist s skate in front of the net thoughts on game the flames came back strong in the second game evidently aware of the potentially fatal consequences of losing both the first two games on home ice the first period was fairly even with the edge going to the kings but calgary came out strong in the second period and simply dominated the kings scoring five goals to take a lead they never relinquished en route to a win the deciding factors in this game were faceoffs and special teams calgary dominated on faceoffs as they did in game but they were able to make better use of the won faceoffs in this game than they did in the first one calgary also went for on the powerplay while l a only went for and gave up a shorthanded goal to joel otto l a s powerplay goal also came late in the game with the outcome already decided the kings powerplay failed them when they needed it most in the st and nd periods the flames lost rw greg paslawski with a suspected shoulder injury when he was leveled by alexei zhitnik right after scoring calgary s th goal charlie huddy left the game for the kings with a groin injury the game was marred by stupidity in the last minute first craig berube of calgary took a five minute major for fighting plus a game misconduct for instigating when he went after tony granato for no apparent reason granato drew a minor for some strange reason turtling perhaps this was followed seconds later by warren rychel drawing a major minor and game misconduct for hitting frank musil in the face with his stick and then instigating a fight musil got a fighting major for some similarily strange reason hardy and yawney went toe to toe and both got double minors gregson thought that musil turtling amounted to fighting but that yawney and hardy throwing punches at each other was just roughing where s this guy from upcoming games friday april at l a sunday april at l a tuesday april home to l a thursday april at l a if necessary saturday may home to l a if necessary injuries c carey wilson indefinite with recurring knee injuries dec calgary flames final regular season statistics pos name gp g a pts pim rw theoren fleury c robert reichel d gary suter lw gary roberts c joe nieuwendyk rw sergei makarov d al macinnis c joel otto lw paul ranheim rw greg paslawski rw ron stern lw brent ashton lw chris lindberg d roger johansson d trent yawney d frank musil c brian skrudland lw craig berube d michel petit d kevin dahl c carey wilson i d chris dahlquist d alexander godynyuk rw todd harkins lw paul kruse g jeff reese d greg smyth g mike vernon rw thomas forslund c shawn heaphy lw patrick lebeau g andrei trefilov name gp min gaa w l t en so ga sa save mike vernon jeff reese andrei trefilov team totals
rec.sport.hockey	re oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes so what s stopping pocklington from going to a bank and borrowing million dollars to pay off his treasury branch loans i was reading according to the recent tsn report peter puck is not paying any interest on the treasury branch loans that s a lot of green somewhere than pocklington business have gross revenues of about million per year i don t think he would have much problem borrowing from his visa to pay off his mastercard if he wanted to again according to tsn virtually everything that peter puck has already has liens against it of course we can t really be sure of this pocklington is at the point of maximum advantage right now and he is basically right in that northlands which is a creature of the city of edmonton must give him a better deal in the era of escalating salaries northlands and the city benefitted as much as he did during the eighties from the oilers and wealth generated by the oilers success was shared but the finanical viability of small market teams has radically changed in the space of a couple of years and for the oilers to remain viable and competitive they need much more of the revenue stream from concessions parking and building advertising as most every other professional sports franchise in north america has what was once a fair agreement that shared the wealth is now northlands sucking the blood out of the oilers franchise the oiler rationale regarding the renegotiation of player contracts is that a deal is a deal sather has spouted this repeatedly pocklinton has a contract with northlands until a deal is a deal perhaps if he included the income he has received from his sale of assets players such as gretzky and the income he has received in expansion fees with his revenues he wouldn t be losing money he has admitted pulling this money out of the oiler franchise to put into his other businesses the oilers have paid several times over what the coliseum cost to build and bring edmonton prestige and recognition throughout the world that is essentially priceless to nickel and dime the oilers just so northlands can use revenue sucked out of the oilers to subsidize their horse racing operations is insanity i think that pocklington has received ample provincial subsidization i can t really blame him for going after municipal subsidization but he is certainly not entitled to it pocklington has sucked revenue out of the oilers in order to prop up his failing business interests pocklington is not to be trusted i doubt very much that any oiler team will ever again make the playoffs under pocklington s stewardship as soon as a player shows himself to be a competent nhl er and expects to be paid accordingly he is shipped off for younger players and or draft picks cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	another travesty at the joe louis detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to another easy victory over the best team in the nhl for the best goaltender in the world felix potvin six was a bad number as he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse to the goon tactics employed by the inferior red wings team alan p s we told you this would happen roger didn t we i love it
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes aargh paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl he called a total of penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques the nords penalty came in o t stewart being an ex nordique himself was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder we was robbed if my powerplay was as bad as montreal s i d be thanking stewart for calling as few penalties as possible quebec s powerplay is lethal and it is to their advantage to have a penalty filled game where they can clean up with their superior powerplay montreal really lost that game and game because patrick roy is well on his way to having another one of his trademark awful playoffs the man is truly overrated quebec has scored six goals on roy and four perhaps five were quite stoppable alan
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article r c t access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield while nylander wanted to play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl to decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have to go through the league or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield as long as a player is under contract to an organization he is obligated to play only where that organization tells him to play or gives him permission to play the rangers are certainly within their rights to force zubov and andersson to report to binghampton it certainly does reflect a lack of class on the part of the ranger organization however is having binghampton win the calder cup really more important to them than keeping their players happy alan
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the season this was during the off season though there s countless examples of captains being traded i m sure alan
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes gee what a coincidence he doesn t share my views perhaps that s why his name is not on the list to accompany the letter maybe i should write a disclaimer at the end mr bettman nota bene roger maynard does not agree with this letter i know he d be so worried otherwise you wouldn t have to put my name at the bottom if you simply appended a standard disclaimer that the opinions expressed in your petition in no way claim to represent the views of either rec sport hockey or the internet as a whole you have surely seen these disclaimers appended to the postings of many who work for companies and post on the net the disclaimers clever though some of them may be are there for a reason cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger speaking of roger and ilk whatever happened to good ol gln i had him in my kill file since last year s playoffs and now that i ve moved to a new news reader which doesn t have kill files i find that he s gone i must admit however that unlike gln roger seems to know something about the game as long as the subject doesn t touch on the leafs ray skirsky rskirsky qualcomm com
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response in catcherc q lb netcom com catcher netcom com paul w francisco writes i wouldn t say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that you belong to it represents a subset that you don t belong to of a larger group which you do if only because this isn t a moderated group and you can bet that i wouldn t be the only one not belonging to the moderated group if it was moderated by an anally retentive little dullard like yourself look there are several ways to state an opposing viewpoint three that come to mind are as follows i hardly need you to presume to lecture me on how to communicate my points of view this posting that you have made is the second on the subject of the nhl letter and you have yet to communicate your opinion on the matter instead you content yourself with flaming me say it directly and obnoxiously result result moronic little busy bodies like yourself take advantage of a perceived opportunity to post rules for others to live by you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will be used against you well if using it against me means you are going to post something of significance then by all means go ahead i insist otherwise why don t you just go back to sleep or do whatever it is that you do when you are all by yourself cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re why blues pulverized chicago weeniehawks sesrock andy bgsu edu stuart esrock writes hitting hawks tried to outmuscle blues but could not do it instead blues matched hawks hit for hit and crunched the shit out of them in game scud line shanahan butcher and zombo particularly took turns bashing favorite targets like chelios skating when the hawks tried to outskate blues they could not do that either nelson emerson finally showed up and skated circles around flat footed chicago defense hedican felsner ron wilson and others also proved that with old cement skaters like goulet and keith brown blues could lap chicago in a m relay race i agree with but you are wrong about in fact the only point where the hawks in any way matched the blues was when they quit trying to outmuscle and instead tried to outskate the blues they scored and took the lead too bad it was game and they then took some stupid penalties when the hawks skated they outskated the blues and took control ian neath there are four kinds of people in this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics u eco
rec.sport.hockey	re caps postseason fortunes in article rhddoinn l jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu writes okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first year that the caps finally made it to the third round but before under brian i noticed that every other year the caps got to the second round and the years in between they didn t make it past the first round is this trend continuning this is not a trend the caps were done goneso in five games and it saves us caps fans a lot of pain i mean it would be more painful if the caps were up watching them tumbled when they need one more win to clinch the series how many times have they done that in their history up in a five game series against the isles lost straight up against the isles lost straight up against the pens lost straight in other words when they were about to clinch with games to go they were a pitiful the lone wins being a sweep of philly in the win against the rangers in the patrick finals the only time they managed to get out of the division actually saturday s blown lead wasn t anything new we all know the caps are famous lead blowers in crucial playoff games examples game against the isles led after two lead series gave up goals in the rd period including the game winning goal in the last minute after that goal bobby carpenter botched a penalty shot series tied lost game a few days later game against the rangers led series led by in the rd period blew it lost game in ot and three consecutive games game against pittsurgh led series led by in nd period blew it and the series game against isles series tied led by after blew it game against isles trailed series led by in nd period blew it again when they were leading by in game i said to myself if they blew this lead the series is over they have lost all the momemtum the islanders believe they can come back no matter what the score is i am still waiting for a cap goalie who can carry the team who can completely shut down the opposition when they are hanging on their dear lives in a crucial game the admiral a hopeless caps fan p s we still remember that ot loss to the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh well some teams such have it and some teams just don t when the caps were frustrated year in year out by the islanders i was thinking wait until potvin bossy trottier smith retire well they retired even though trottier was still able to haunt the caps on a pens uniform yet another generation of islanders were still doing the same thing well i guess it has nothing to do with the players edward lor lor cbnewsk att com
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article c p q unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers wrote i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe and a shot at detroit i can t see them losing to st louis gee they lost to st louis twice this year maybe you should have your eyes checked go canucks greg go blues the rodney dangerfield team they get no respect except in chicago mabee david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	re maybe next year hawks in article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu wrote belfour played well but i hardly saw any offense from any hawk what i want to know is where was roenick as far as i can tell he was right next to bassen don t you guys love it when people like me come out of the woodwork david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	regular season pool nhl hockey pool by denis papp and chris stoochnoff rules pick players lw c rw ld rd goalies you may pick any players from any team points for players are as follows point per goal point per assist point per pim points for goalies are as follows points per win point per tie point per assist point per pim points per shutout points per goal entries entries can be sent by mail or ascii text file to chris stoochnoff or denis papp on hard wired bbs due date for entries is the first day of regular season play after that no more entries will be accepted unless it is just slightly late if that is the case there will be a small penalty applied to the team internet users can send email to dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta ca prizes prizes have not yet been considered they could range from nothing to free time on hard wired bbs or even something else if you have any suggestions please feel free to put your two cents worth in one idea is to get whoever is willing to to submit an equal amount of money and that will go to be the prize money the prize money will go to the top team who has submitted to the prize pool a list of all people who submit money will be posted as well as those who didnt if it is done this way cost the cost absolutely nothing there is absolutely no fee for this pool note if you have any questions please feel free to send them to denis papp or myself chris stoochnoff the players positions ie brett hull is right wing will be decided by the year book i will be using so if you do not know a certain players position or you are not completely sure what position he plays then ask me and i ll tell you and for a great time call the hard wired bbs at this will be the location where the pool standings will be displayed internet users to contact denis papp just email dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta ca standings will be distributed by email as well
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs what happened hi guys what happened potvin didn t let six goals by wendel and andreychuk woke up home ice and lots of yelling in the gardens gave the leafs the emotional edge refs calls especially last night tended to favour leafs a couple of comments on gilmour just because the guy isn t one of the three stars doesn t mean he was not leading the team someone posted the playoff point total and he s in something like fifth or sixth place plus he walked away with the molson cup given for accumulating points from the three star selection during the regular season on the officiating i ve heard gripes from both ends on this one emotions are very high in this series the rivalry is one of the stronger ones i know of i do have to agree that the officiating last night was pro leaf in general except for whoever missed that slash on gilmour s hand in general i still think detroit has one of the better chances vs pittsburgh though i think the leafs would do better against the blues but not as well if they made it out of the division problem is i like both these teams though i m supporting the leafs on the underdog principle d by the way gilmour tiring out is a lot like bob probert not playing aggressive hockey by the way i m not any sort of expert nor do i claim to be i just like watching a good matchup tee hee hee ooops susan
rec.sport.hockey	re more hart trophy stuff in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes the hart trophy goes to the player most valuable to his team not to the best player in the league so your above arguement is really worthless personally i always thought that most valuable to his team was silly why should the best player in the league be penalized because he plays on a team with other good players why should a lesser player be picked solely because he s the best player on a weak team wouldn t the weaker team be helped even more by the best player in the league doesn t the presence of the best player in the league make the other players on the team look better too the hart trophy was orginally awarded in a time where people did not think in terms of who was the best player rather in terms of who was the most valuable to the team and valuable to his team was not and should not be considered synonymous with best we are talking about a time when honour and attitude not measurable skills were the most important assets a player brought to his team his league and his sport this was before the onslaught of professionalism which has clearly denigrated what was formerly the foremost peacetime pursuit of glory the hart trophy is not a prize it is an honour cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re blues sweep hawks while i will first congratulate the blues for their victory i think it must be realized that the primary reason the blues were able to win was curtis joseph when a goalkeeper gets hot there is little an opposing team can do joseph should be given the entire city of st louis because otherwise there would probably be a game scheduled as for the game on sunday the blues caught a few breaks without a doubt one was the referee constantly watching the blackhawks looking for reasons to give them penalties second the blues first goal resulted because the puck hit the linesman as the blackhawks attempted to clear no linesman no shot for brett i can redirect anything hull to redirect on another of st louis goals belfour was tripped from behind as he went to make the save by someone who didn t belong in the crease which means it was a st louis player finally the overtime goal was caused because someone kept belfour from getting back to the crease no goalie no way to stop the shot i congratulate st louis for beating the hawks it will be a shame to see bryan murray finally advance to the campbell conference finals because joseph won t be able to stop the powerful red wing attack the world reknown jason boskey mail bosk uiuc edu known throughout the world as the bosk christ you know it ain t easy all rights reserved all lefts enhanced you know how hard it can be the way things are goin here they come spinning out of the turn they re gonna crucify me
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings standings reflecting completed series in round participant points final roland behunin cal que que dave wessels van pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean s det pit pit oz lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit bh s last place picks chi pit pit milton keynes kings det pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ye ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs of myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller n walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers of chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi fr nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	re wc finland in apr math ucla edu dstein oak math ucla edu david stein writes jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th look at the situation positively the finns can now kick canada out they did last world cup and eventually lost tp sweden in the final peter
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts in article apr mtu edu kcsmith mtu edu smith writes i don t think he s shown that he s good enough to carry detroit to the cup the team may be good enough to reach the finals but cheveldae is their achilles heel you must have goaltending in the playoffs and cheveldae looks like an overmatched nd or rd stringer which he probably i guess i don t know of too many nd or rd string goalies that could post over wins in a season chevy has done that the past two seasons playing behind a defense that is not exactly the best in the league his wins this year were not all against toronto and for those who look at vincent rien stats and think he should be starting take a look at the teams he played against teams like san jose ottawa and tb any nhl goalie could post a decent record playing teams like that night in and night out is look for detroit management to remedy the situation in the offseason i really don t see this happening if they didn t think cheveldae could do the job they would of traded for somebody this year after all why wait until next year when there were goalies available this year hey i may be wrong but after watching him kick rebound after rebound into the high slot i don t think he can carry them in the tough games i e those not against toronto better to kick out rebounds than to let goals in if st louis gets past chicago watch for joseph to carry the blues past an otherwise vastly superior red wings club joseph is hot but so are the wings they have scored six goals in both of their games so far with toronto supposively one of the leagues best defenses i guess if they end up playing for the norris title we ll see what happens dr d the devils advocate drinkin women guns don t mix v p nk ubvms cc buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm kcs wings in or hopefully by as far as cheveldae is concerned he is a decent goalie the most logical trade in the offseason to me would be between detroit and ny rangers i m sure if beezer would be traded he would enjoy the opportunity to go back to his roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return beezer got a few good years in him and the opportunity to get a fresh start would energize his play
rec.sport.hockey	hawks lose yawn on april maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard wrote m m look for the leafs led by a healthy doug gilmour and a confidence restored m felix potvin to do the blues in the leafs will have more games with the m wings and that should give joseph a few extra days to pass those horshoes m ha roger the dodger is back on the bandwagon that is jack please tell me if you don t get this message rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	montreal versue quebec did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky well maybe they re all out on the golf course or something but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg here in the middle of connecticut there are plenty of bruin fans many who have let me know in no uncertain terms that the rangers choked down the stretch i think the bruins are doing the same exact thing the rangers did they re playing too tight who s responsibility is it to check mogilny he has gotten off a number of quality shots on goal of which there are many rebounds which are not being cleared by the b s defense it s too bad the b s might not get the opportunity to play pittsburgh again i would really enjoy seeing ulfie get beat up by neely we all hate ulfie but would love him on are team
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft winning team regular season i was asked to post the team log of this year s winning team in the regular season draft here tis begin dave wessels reading team dave wessels from database log all team log name team points value bought week sold week trevor linden van pre cliff ronning van pre robert reichel cgy pre pat verbeek hfd pre pat falloon sj pre john maclean nj pre eric lindros phi pre rick tocchet pit pre greg adams van pre mike ricci que pre joe juneau bos pre kevin hatcher wsh pre teemu selanne wpg pre pavel bure van pre dixon ward van pre russ courtnall min darren turcotte nyr christian ruuttu chi petr nedved van petr klima edm tony granato la steve duchesne que alexander mogilny buf ray sheppard det steve larmer chi vincent damphousse mtl tony amonte nyr brendan shanahan stl corey millen la johan garpenlov sj kelly kisio sj pat elynuik wsh benoit hogue nyi pat flatley nyi rod brind amour phi michal pivonka wsh joe mullen pit john cullen tor stephane richer nj jeff norton nyi glenn anderson tor ray bourque bos bernie nicholls nj andrew cassels hfd dmitri kvartalnov bos tomas sandstrom la joe sakic que rob blake la derek king nyi michel goulet chi mike modano min dmitri khristich wsh alexander semak nj nikolai borschevsky tor mike donnelly la jeff brown stl thomas steen wpg kevin dineen phi mario lemieux pit wayne gretzky la you have cash points as of week your team is placed of teams andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re blues sweep blackhawks in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu says michael virata sy says michael sy mvs cec wustl edu devils consultant and how bout those devils over the penguins hahahahahahah attention all penguins fans if the pens win game show some laughter in that e mail box address listed above thanks attention penguins fans once again apparently of you understand that this was just a joke hence the next to it but one idiot on here doesn t as he got pissed at me and sent me two hate e mails telling me that this is wrong i have no intentions of sending e mail to anyone should the pens win tonight and i really do not expect do not intend to lead any of you to send this poster e mail either it was not a serious request if you didn t know that which you probably did then don t do it thanks robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the devils penguins stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re caps postseason fortunes in article rhddoinn l jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu says okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first don t give up so soon a lot of burgh fans didn t give up at last year you gotta believe hard as that may seem with the caps with the power play in the playoffs and penalty killing according to mike lange all the caps have to do is make sure it doesn t go ot as that was boston s and chicago s demise ot can be a curse
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans good point there haven t even been any recent posts about ulf secretly i m convinced that he s responsible for the bs being down to buffalo somehow
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re cbc canadian for espn in article c tef c cs dal ca reiniger ug cs dal ca darren reiniger says i d like to echo these sentiments this is the worst coverage i can ever remember seeing on cbc as soon as the game ends i can count to and by that time they ve signed off the air no post game interviews no updating of late scores nothin tsn is really putting cbc to shame i only hope the later round coverage improves i mean who really wants to see cbc primetime news instead of hockey my darren this was a concession to mansbridge and cbc news they argued that if you re going to play havoc with the schedule you should at least make sure that prime time is aired as soon as possible news got a commitment that the post game show would be scrapped and that the network would go to ptn within one minute or so of the game ending as for the earlier comments about cbc being ontariocentric frankly the no doubleheader decison goes both ways people in the west cant see the leafs and people in central canada can t see the jets game the reason for the decision was cbc s feeling they couldn t sell advertising for six hours of hockey in one night as for who wants to see news over hockey a lot of people cbc always gets plenty of complaints about juggling the news schedule darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.hockey	real fans there was a discussion about how real fans were ones who respect their teams no matter ow bad they are that s bullshit anyone who would follow the pens or the pirates in parts of the early eighties on a devoted basis are losers it s ok to follow and be concerned about your home team but to give them respect even when it is clear the management and the players suck should not be required of a true fan a true fan would follow the team in troubled times to the extent that they could discuss how to improve the team when i visit pittsburgh i ll refuse to go to a pirates game since i think the management has given pittsburgh a team which could have been much better even if they couldn t sign barry bonds lert s say the pens start doing to their own team what the oilers have done this year and what the whalers have done in recent years i would be hard pressed to show much enthusiasm for the team i ll still follow it and bitch about it but i won t waste my money on mediocre teams p ravin ratnam
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver david downie dave downie commerce ubc ca wrote speaking of paddock what s he doing slagging sandlak if sandlak puts his mind to it he can be a physical presence and waking him up might be a real mistake isn t sandbag out with an injury now anyways perhaps paddock meant to say that momesso was the cheap short artist after all that would make more sense wpg in umward ccu umanitoba ca computer science u of manitoba
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter if you wanted to send your own letter to the nhl where would you send it brett e ball
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article g o ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes oh yeah and i can go to the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners my nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once as many times as the rockin town of kenora has won it don t let this confuse anybody the winnipeg jets have never won the stanley cup or even come that close these stanley cup championships go back a long way to about the turn of the century the winnipeg victorias won one or more of these cups the jets didn t win any of them can you think of anything more irrelevant to argue about a playoff series going on today than who won more stanley cups around the turn of the century lets face facts the canucks are leading the series the canucks dominated the jets in their season series the canucks did better in the regular season than winnipeg who is the better team i think that the facts show that vancouver is better than winnipeg gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re the amazin isles watch out pitsburgh here come the isles they said we wouldn t make the playoffs and we came in third they said the caps would beat us and they re not going to they say that pitsburgh has a ratio of winning the cup but we ll prove them wrong l e t s g o i s l a n d e r s bring it back home
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer lli cs cmu edu lori iannamico writes in an article published in this morning s pittsburgh post gazette kbl the pgh cable sports channel president bill craig has confirmed that he has had preliminary talks with the mouth of the north don cherry craig said he is interested in hiring cherry as color commentator and for post game duties others being considered for the open broadcasting jobs are current pens announcers mike lange and paul steigerwald craig spoke to both yesterday kbl s stan savaran and guy junker espn s mike emrick mn broadcaster doug mccloud and tsn s jim hughson kbl and the penguins have just inked a new deal giving kbl all tv and radio rights to pens games plans are that kbl would like to have an entire night of hockey starting with a pre game show and running to a post game show that would sign off about depending upon length of the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba considering how often and how badly he has slammed the pens on coach s corner on hockey night in canada it would surprise me as well but then people will do anything for money won t they lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu randy
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article orasis vis toronto edu bdown vis toronto edu brian down writes stuff deleted for example look at pat quinn of the canucks i am not saying that he is the best gm merely a better one than murray and one i am very familiar with he traded garth butcher a good player and dan quinn not in the nhl anymore to st louis for cliff ronning geoff courtnall sergio mommesso and robert dirk too good to be true right i think this goes along with a comment you made in an earlier post namely quinn taking advantage of a major league bonehead for a gm in st louis this trade was an absolutely stupid trade for st louis and it was not the only stupid trade that this guy made we can give quinn credit for being an opportunist here stuff about other trades deleted plus his team has improved a much greater amount than detroit since he took over with them how do you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close to the same number of points they both went down in the first round of the playoffs before finally escaping in games and they both got knocked out in the second round by teams they should have been able to beat with less talent specifically if i remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further if i m not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver at the end of this season albeit not many gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	re if oilers go to hamilton in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat says if the oilers move to hamilton what division will they play in and won t they have to change their name to the steelers or something the only significant deposits of oil around hamilton are those caused by the tire fire a few years back then again if the nba can have the utah jazz or the l a lakers think about it what lakes are in l a then i guess the nhl can have the hamilton oilers
rec.sport.hockey	senators sign top draft picks reports in ottawa today say that the senators have come to a verbal agreement with last seasons first pick and nd overall choice alexei yashin on a year deal as well the senators have signed their second round pick chad penney who is currently playing for the sault ste marie greyhounds in the ontario junior league playoffs mike d amico bnr ottawa ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re stewart homered the wings in andy bgsu edu m bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes paul stewart called the single worst game i ve seen this year federov s major was obvious and i don t dispute it however chaisson s penalty shouldn t even have been a penalty let alone a major and a game misconduct i don t notice refs and linesmen until the playoffs come around and yes i have to agree that stewart called the two worst games i ve seen so far mtl quebec game and last nights toronto detroit game what s the scoop on this guy is he the latest incarnation of kerry fraser just because you are boneheadedly stubborn doesn t make you a good ref making the right call does my votes for best ref van hellemond most improved koharski worst paul stewart oops i don t really want to start a best worst ref thread so don t follow up paul yatrou
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer kbl and the penguins have just inked a new deal giving kbl all tv and radio rights to pens games plans are that kbl would like to have an entire night of hockey starting with a pre game show and running to a post game show that would sign off about depending upon length of the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu well i was watching hockey hotline last night and stan said that the station kbl had been recieving calls all day concerning this subject and the verdict was that almost exclusively nobody wanted that load mouth know it all blow hard former bruin whiner ulf hating scum sucking pr ck of missery in pittsburgh on a permanent basis that s not exactly what stan said i did do a bit of interpriting the cmu kiddie
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long obnoxious name calling deleted ok who wants rm off of here i say we get his net privleges revoked any seconds go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long roger shut up thank you go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame sh i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas sh i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging sh as much as i d like to see the nhl only a hour drive from me i can t help but feel for the people in minnesota unless they truly didn t support the team sh opinions please i used to work for the stars minnesota supported the team to an extent when i was there we had quite afew sellouts this was the season after the cup run and during the finals norm s main bitch was that there wasn t enough luxury suites and the ones he had were not always full he wanted more boxes and wanted them full he was just asking for too much from people that could go and see other hockey games at high schools for or college for about that would probably be better mark qmpro radioactive cats are very very hot origin origin line not defined in goedit
rec.sport.hockey	springfield indians ahl office here is something crossposted from the ahl mailing list in a discussion between me and chris lerch the subject of springfield s st round upset of the providence bruins came up chris basically raised the possibility that the ahl hierarchy is biased in favor of the indians he noted that the offices for the league are in spring and many ex indians are working for the ahl furthermore he also informed me that back a few years ago in the cup finals between roch and spring that the amerks charged favoritism by the office and that there were little questionable things liket he ahl president and staff attending all games with the springfield brass including sitting in their box for the game in springfield and according to the rochester media openly cheering for springfield certainly this is something that is quite serious if any of this is true i don t know if this is anything more than whining on the part of the amerks they have pulled this sort of crap against the wings before but if true this is somthing that seriously raises questions about president jack butterfield s leadership btw this was posted with the permission of chris bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wash isl ot game this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey the management of espn was reluctant to leave the pitt nj game even though the outcome was certain because of fear of the wash ny game going to overtime when the caps scored with left to tie the game al said he heard many people say f k espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey get off espn s back and stop posting articles on this subject there have been to many f n complainers about this game that it s making me sick geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	wc pool a italy sweden w d l canada sweden russia italy austria switzerland
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes ali procrastination lemer i gave nhl commissioner gary bettman a puck columbia university nyc once he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix ctr columbia edu open it pat williams gm orlando magic be kind to animals hug a hockey player nice sig like the change btw could you post the names of the people who are going to be on the letter i and i m sure others would like to know if we are included if i m not i want to be roger is a fool go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re switzerland at wc in article apr vms huji ac il hechel vms huji ac il writes does anybody know if this wc is the qualification tournement for the olympic games in lillehammer or are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel the top teams of this tournament will play in the olympics next year the last team of this tournament top two of pool b great britain and poland and the winner of pool c latvia will play for the last olympic spot next fall however if next year s hosts norway were to finish th which would be no surprise then it s the th team of pool a that will have to play in the qualification tournament marko tervio
rec.sport.hockey	re caps moving why would pollin want to move the caps because i think he owns the cap centre i know they don t sell out all of their games but they draw a lot more than the bullets if you had the situation that abe had would you move if you were guaranteed that anyone who went to the games would have to park at the stadium because there has been nothing within a half mile until the recent construction in the area can they win a game in ot again rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning a blurb you re a blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article bson apr nutrimat gnu ai mit edu bson gnu ai mit edu jan brittenson writes which doesn t mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the game playoff format but yes it looks dark for the b s what a disappointment the fat lady is about to hit the first note okay how about deficits the b s chances for a comeback are now less that s based on game playoff format who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too he got the start but the headlines on all boston local tv sportscats said it all sutter blue it and he did harry sinden s appearance outside of b s dressing room after game was a pathetic site he said something really retarded to cover sutter s behind this game is not about winning or losing harry check the schedule your team is in the playoffs and about to go on a long summer vacation on sunday morning harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re regular season pool this is what i came up with using the final regular season stats for the which you can find in the april edition of the usa today try it out and see what you come up with adam oates c bruins pts teemu selanne rw jets pts alexander mogilny rw sabres pts pavel bure rw canucks pts vincent damphousse lw canadians pts dave andreychuk lw mapleleafs pts phil housley rd jets pts paul coffey rd redwings pts sergei fedorov c redwings pts andy moog g bruins pts al infrate rd capitials pts patrick roy g canadians pts al macinnis ld flames pts dennis savard c canadians pts calle johansson ld capitals pts yuri khmylev lw sabres pts richard smehlik ld sabres pts total points pts most valuable player adam oates rookie of the year teemu selanne most improved player vincent damphousse defenseman of the year phil housley goalie of the year patrick roy
rec.sport.hockey	re another travesty at the joe louis in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to another easy victory over the best team in the nhl for the best goaltender in the world felix potvin six was a bad number as he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse to the goon tactics employed by the inferior red wings team alan p s we told you this would happen roger didn t we i love it where is roger anyway haven t heard from him in awhile he must be out on the golf course waiting for the leafs to join him any day now laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return wake up and smell the norris rick zombo was traded to the blues for vince riendo sp last season mike
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts as far as cheveldae is concerned he is a decent goalie the most logical trade in the offseason to me would be between detroit and ny rangers i m sure if beezer would be traded he would enjoy the opportunity to go back to his roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return beezer got a few good years in him and the opportunity to get a fresh start would energize his play only problem is that zombo was traded to st louis last year for goalie vincent riendeau i think that while chevy is not among the elite class of goalies he is adequate given the offensive firepower of the wings greg
rec.sport.hockey	re hey what about teh cannucks grogers slacvx slac stanford edu greg rogers writes hi all due to living in the bay area i as unable to see vancouver s victory over the jets last night i know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post a brief sonapsis sp of waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving of the victory well in my opinion the canucks played a really strong game i was especially pleased by a very strong game from linden i think he could be a key to success for them this year defensively they really had a strong game hardly heard selanne s name all night craven also played one of his best games since coming over with a few exceptions they really didn t let the high flying jets do much high flying i thought the jets defence looked overmatched by the canucks forwards they will have to improve on that if they want to make this a series in short it was a great start chris roney e mail chris roney sfu ca
rec.sport.hockey	canucks over winnipeg the jets gave the canucks another run for their money in an almost identical game to the first of the series but once again came up short as vancouver outscored winnipeg the pattern of the first game was repeated tonight with the canucks scoring quickly and then going to sleep in the second period only to stave off a jet comeback with opportune goals from their greater talent the jets looked more dangerous in this one but it didn t make a difference in the numbers that counted goals vancouver s big line produced again with centre cliff ronning and left winger geoff courtnall scoring in the first and in the second to boost the canucks to a lead on giveaways by the suspect jet defence of bautin and ulanov mental lapses by the defence and goal scoring talent in opportune areas made the difference in all three canuck goals however as in the first game the jets worked hard to take the game to the canucks in the second period the jets dominated the second checking hard and penetrating the vancouver zone without being challenged by a canuck team that wanted to pack it in early the hard work paid off late in the second when tie domi caught vancouver goalie kirk mclean by surprise with a sharp angle shot to make the score domi s goal gave the jets new life as they began to take the rush to the canuck s collapsing defence the canucks were unwilling to do anything but let mclean take shots and clear the rebounds the jets were allowed to set up and make plays both goalies made standup saves as the play picked up considerably mclean made three great saves in the second off a dancing teammu selanne while essensa was rocked by a pavel bure drive selanne looked dangerous on the rush as the jets pressed a series of attacks into the canuck zone the canucks on the other hand looked like they were offering four checking lines in an effort to preserve their slim lead a series of minor penalties at the end of the second period resulted in a one man advantage for the jets in the early third the jet s tempo numminen drove a puck from the point through mclean s legs and into the net to tie the game at the canuck s discordant play picked up where it left off this was characterized by long lead passes that either never connected or were picked off by the jets and individual rushes into a tight winnipeg defence that were never supported however as in the first and second canuck goals a jet defensive lapse re bonehead play stalled the winnipeg comeback with the faceoff in the winnipeg zone pavel bure was left to stand in the crease with no jet defender anywhere near him bure who had been invisible in the game up to that point took a rebound and managed to roof it with a backhand even though he was off balance by then it was too late for the jets to come back essensa made it to the bench with one minute to go but the extra attacker did nothing for their attack canucks winnipeg next game is friday at winnipeg with the jets in the hole by two games
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes dear mr bettman ali s letter deleted for brevity roger s acid laced response removed maybe we should get together and establish some kind of mandatory maturity level to keep some of this stuff off of the air roger your responses might just exclude you from sharing your opinions then you see the same rights ali has to mail her letter to the nhl are the same ones that let you post replies that mow her down like wheat at harvest time she never said she represented the entire internet or the entire group rec sport hockey she has every right to state her opinion along with those of the fifty or sixty or hundred odd folk who ve agreed to allow her to list their names on the bottom of it you may not agree with it fine i really don t care enough about the name change to care your name isn t attached to it so why moan and complain if you felt her words were leading well you re free to feel that way and take exception but manners never hurt i personally disagree and feel her generalizations were fine i have the right to think and say that too ali s under no compunction to change a single word now while you re free to disagree with every word she wrote to tear apart her character is uncalled for i m posting this as a form of public reprimand if you tear down ali s integrity and character publicly you ll get chastised publicly in return would it have been so hard to say ali please be a bit more specific in your description the way i ve read it indicates you re stating my view also and that s simply not true i d really like to see a disclaimer noting that you don t mean the entire internet or the entire r s h group attached to it despite your intent to list names at the bottom thanks cordially as always c calling her a moron and an asshole just reduces the weight of your words and the opinions of their author in the eyes of myself and possibly others oh and ali nice to see someone standing up for something even if it s not something i personally advocate valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in article apr fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes in article c pstr lu panix com dfl panix com danny o bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because a military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there a patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been a major change in the law there s no such beast as a classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art yes there is the patent can be classified as secret i recently saw a patent from dealing with nuclear weapons technology that was only declassified in the last couple of years there is of course the problem of enforcing the patent the same thing applies in civilian development you can t patent something and declare it a trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection this is absolutely right alec chambers
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything sorry about double posting but i forgot something make use or sell in this context have non standard meanings make means making an encrypted message use may mean using pgp or using an encrypted message sell would probably mean selling an encrypted message it is the message created by a patented process incorporated in pgp which infringes arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in a non government escrow i still like eff but i admin their security has not been tested arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	greek comint installation was re the secret source of that announcement from article apr cathy ijs si by borut b lavrencic ijs si in article gradyc unp d netcom com grady netcom com ef writes the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh one case of slovenian paranoia once upon a time a tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens i could not do that mostly becouse the field is now a huge antenna farm probably a greek comint installation would you agree are you sure that the field is in the area you found the antenna farm the tomb ymvos of marathon which herodotus specifies as near the fighting area is in an area open to the public you must be referring to the u s army base of nea makri it was built by the u s in the same manner as bases all over the world w germany spain philippines turkey etc were built i think it was a telecommunications hub over the recent years u s forces have withdrawn from the base and removed all military equipment the area is currently under the control of the greek navy until the all interested parties local goverment central goverment political parties agree on what should be done with the land park recreation area real estate this has nothing to do with cryptography security and the eff i have redirected followups to soc culture greek diomidis diomidis spinellis internet dds doc ic ac uk uucp uknet icdoc dds department of computing imperial college london sw include dev tty
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in visicom com makey visicom com jeff makey writes in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn t dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper s respectability than to diminish her own i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything the patents don t apply in canada i think the free trade agreement may provide for recognition of new patents but not old ones arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks courts already operate substantial record keeping operations some of these records are confidential so the concept of a court holding information in confidence in accordance with law has longstanding legal precedents the judiciary is more immune to pressure from the executive branch than any executive branch agency or contractor can be so judicial control of keys is appropriate for the other half of the key i suggest a unit of congress the general accounting office the gao is congress s staff unit for keeping tabs on the executive branch and has an excellent reputation it s controlled strictly by congress the executive branch has no authority over it with keys split between the legislative and judicial branches we might have a chance of this system working honestly if of course a way can be found to keep the keys from being siphoned off before they reach the repositories this should not be construed as an endorsement by me of the whole clipper concept but if we have to have it splitting control across all three branches of government might make it work john nagle
sci.crypt	hidden markov modeling in the article at last now you can talk to your computer in the may issue of fortune magazine it was mentioned that phoneme prediction used hidden markov modeling this was the statistical method that markov developed to predict letter sequences in pushkin s novel eugene onegin it was then said that this technique worked so well that the nsa used it to crack codes does anyone have any references for hmm and how the nsa used it or is this just an extension of the letter frequency tables that we are all using anyway joe pjhong clio rad sunysb edu
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher could someone repost or send to me via email the original posting of the clipper chip press release thanks andrew kriger hampshire college agk neural hampshire edu andrew kriger three may keep a secret hampshire college if two of them are dead agk neural hampshire edu benjamin franklin
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more lawrence c foard lfoard hopper virginia edu wrote in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke i remember seeing it several months ago and it was marked as a joke funny how things circulate kenneth l beal jr kbeal amber ssd csd harris com use os often does pavlov ring a bell nlp tapes learn keep moving street person my responsibility indigo girls better yourself fnord one man gathers what another man spills dead opinions are mine is your religion batf approved pro con progress
sci.crypt	re sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught well isn t this just a hoot all i read on this group is a bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt this just happens to be a case of an ordinary joe netter who decided that he would create and or distribute some misinformation ppl buy into bs posts like this i know because i forwarded a copy of the post to my office mate who turned around and was although he won t admit it sorry joe ready to get in a fight about f o r f e i t u r e please if we re going to hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems to high standards then mustn t we follow these too electronic freedoms only go so far anyway i guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton s true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu hey i m willing to forgive after of course my office mate takes his extra anti paranoia pills doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not i know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it s true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article r g n rvb access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required fine then cut them off with pen and paper and not the sword jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re new encryption psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper i suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn t for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn t i don t suggest that but post this to point out that there is a class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door i d have no problem with that phrasing david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not i know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it s true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand that wasn t my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to a cnn poll about of americans think the fbi acted properly and a majority think they should have done it the tear gas a lot sooner a large majority also believe the fbi was not at all responsible for the death of the victims koresh was let s avoid the kind of fruitless argument of the sort if a hadn t x d then b might not have y d what you call the big brother chip is right now a proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned therefore neither justifies any tactic is fair thus the statement is nonsense it is pernicious because any tactic can lead to damaging others as i see you know from the tone of your reply there s nothing personal intended david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack this has to be a dictionary attack no other attack makes sense this means that whoever encrypted the file just typed some password which was a single dictionary word and then russell tried all the words in the dictionary this isn t too implausible especially if he was smart and clipped the first plaintext block off the ciphertext if the first block doesn t decrypt then obviously the others won t either assuming one attempt a second it takes seven hours to try all the words in usr dict words not real tough if you want des to be secure you have to use random keys you can t just type your wife s name and think aha they ll never guess that one daniel f boyd boyd cs buffalo edu welcome to the first church of appliantology the white zone is for loading and unloading only
sci.crypt	re the escrow database david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote in article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes cascades elided to preserve our sanity that wasn t my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to a cnn poll what you call the big brother chip is right now a proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned just to set the record straight steve gardner was not the author of the bit you quoted i was steve just took issue with david s characterization of my words as pernicious nonsense i won t further comment on my own views folks either support em or they don t and the lines in question were neither central to the points i was making in my original post nor to the important debate here in sci crypt and elsewhere tim may who continues to hold the same views but doesn t feel like debating politics timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	could someone mail me the text from the white house clipper announcement thanks a bunch nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article apr magic mcc com croley magic mcc com david croley wrote it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let s face it the average consumer doesn t care or know that the clipper is a bad idea if there is a perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely a standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and a chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy a cheaper one this is an interesting point as a very coarse rule of thumb you can figure that the final price of a product is to times the cost of goods the exact multiplier depends largely on economies of scale products that sell tens of millions of units year will be at the low end those that sell thousands of units year will be at the high end i suspect cellular phones are in the middle this implies that adding a chip would increase the cost of the phone by approx or about i don t think you ll get a lot of consumer support for this tony usual disclaimer
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is it s not a question just of who is holding the phone it s a question of what circuit to wiretap in the first place if two drug dealers are both using stolen cellular phones the fbi doesn t know which lines to tap unless of course they re tapping all phones maybe all cellular phones if they haven t tapped the connection ie at least one end of the connection then they don t know what key to request disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes i benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in c book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn t very fast grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c vmf mbt murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke i m seeking permission to repost the actual note but someone on another mailing list checked the archives on nexis upi and all major newspapers and found no mention of that article
sci.crypt	re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes clipper will make criminals out of cops do we want to do this to our police forces the war on some drugs has already turned alot of police into criminals this is yet another nail in the constitution s coffin smg
sci.crypt	re new encryption from denning guvax acc georgetown edu the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they were not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the u s government trusting the fox to guard the chickens and all that seems suspicious when the rest of the sources are foxes while we are at it the chip design s should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm it would be a shame if some three letter agency had the ability to interrogate my chip when all i d know is that someone rang and when i attempted to go off hook the line went dead could be even worse if the chip were intended to connect directly to a modem the design examination should be done to the gate level does anyone have a good idea how to tell if there is a piggyback design on silicon the model would be extra logic sharing pins with the advertised function tip offs would be circuitry that would ignore incoming data if formats or sequence is not right i can think of only two ways an output pin could be used and its possible that might be noticed but could be edited from the netlist i think the silicon itself needs to be investigated imagine a design done in two layer metalization yet finding a third layer under the microscope the government is asking for a lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation i d feel like keeping one hand on my wallet
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob
sci.crypt	estimating wiretap costs benefits would wiretap chip be cost effective by robin hanson draft april summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents a month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective background until now phones have happened to allow the existence of wiretaps detectors which could pick up conversations on a phone line and over time law enforcement agencies have come to rely on this capability to aid in criminal investigations however powerful new encryption technologies threaten this status quo by making possible truly private communication a small chip in each phone could soon make it literally impossible to overhear a conversation without physical microphones at either end in order to preserve the ability of law enforcement agencies to tap phone conversations the u s government announced on april that it had developed and begun manufacturing a special wiretap chip to be placed in future phones instead of the total privacy chips which have been under private development the same day at t announced it would use these chips in all its secure telephone products each chip would be created under government supervision when it would be given a fixed indentifier and encryption key periodically during each conversation the chip would broadcast its identifier and other info in a special law enforcement block law enforcement officers with a court order could then obtain the key corresponding to the indentifier from special trust agencies and could thereby listen in on any future or previously recorded conversations on that phone to date most concerns voiced about this plan have been about its security the government won t disclose the encryption algorithm and many suspect the government will not limit its access in the way it has claimed the track record of previous governments does not inspire confidence on this point however this paper will neglect these concerns and ask instead whether this new wiretap chip is a cost effective tool for police investigation that is which is a cheaper way for society to investigate crime force phone communications to support wiretaps or give police agencies more money to investigate crimes in other ways or to put it another way would police agencies be willing to pay for each wiretap if they had to pay their share of the full social cost of forcing phones to support wiretaps to start to answer this question we might compare the current benefits wiretaps provide to law enforcement agencies with projected costs of implementing the new wiretap chip plan and since current benefits are easier to estimate we begin there wiretap benefits is the latest year for which wiretap statistics are available in that year wiretap installations were requested and no requests were denied this figure does not include wiretaps obtained with the consent of a party to the conversation arrests resulted from wiretaps started the same year arrests came from wiretaps in previous years and of arrests led to convictions of the wiretaps were for phones vs pagers email etc were regarding drug offenses and were requested by federal authorities each wiretap installation heard an average of calls of them incriminating among people and cost an average of extrapolating from the installations reporting costs mostly for labor thus a total of about million was spent on wiretaps to obtain about arrests at per arrest thus these arrests are at least four times more expensive than the per arrest figure one gets by dividing the billion spent by all police nationally by the total million non traffic arrests thus the million per year spent on phone taps is only one thousanth of the total police expenditures and if we divide this by the million phone access lines in the country we get about cents spent per year per phone line or about two cents a month in general we deter a given class of criminals through a combination of a perceived probability of being caught and convicted and some expected punishment level if convicted so the social value of having wiretaps is no more than the amount that we would have to pay to get the same criminal deterrence through other means if unable to wiretap a particular suspect s phone police might instead use hidden microphones or investigate that suspect in other ways or police might focus on suspects more easily investigated without wiretaps or we might raise the fine or prison time for certain types of crime if we generously assume that these substitutes for wiretaps would be on average twice as expensive as wiretaps then the annual social benefit of phone wiretaps is about equal to the current spending level of two cents a month per phone line wiretap costs let us for the moment optimistically assume that the us government encryption scheme is as secure as whatever private enterprise would have offered instead protecting our conversations from the spying ears of neighbors corporations and governments both foreign and domestic even so the need to support wiretaps would add many additional costs to build and maintain our communication system extra law enforcement blocks would be added to phone transmissions increasing traffic by some unknown percentage a special process must be used to add encryption keys to chips while securely distributing these keys to special agencies which must be funded and monitored the chips themselves are designed by a military contractor whose design is to remain secret and are manufactured through a special process so that the chip becomes nearly impossible to take apart chips are now offered at the relatively high price of a peice in lots of private encryption systems not supporting wiretaps would require none of these extra costs perhaps most important government degree would at least partially replace private marketplace evolution of standards for how voice is to be represented encrypted and exchanged in our future phones it is widely believed that governments are less efficient than private enterprise in procuring products and standards though they may perhaps perform a useful brokering role when we choose between competing private standards how much less efficient is a matter of debate some say they pay twice as much while others might say only more currently a total of billion is spent as operating expenses of u s phone companies which comes out to about per month per access line if we compare this to the wiretap value of two cents per month we see that if wiretaps raise average operating costs by even as much as one part in then wiretaps are not cost effective and this doesn t even include extra costs phone owners pay because their encryption chips are more expensive of course most phones wouldn t have encryption chips for a while but the wiretap benefit per phone is still the same so this argument still applies conclusion given this dramatic difference between the total cost of running the phone system and the value of wiretaps we can justify only the slightest modification of the phone system to accommodate wiretaps when the only modification required was to allow investigators in to attach clips to phone wires wiretap support may have been reasonable but when we consider substantial modification the burden of proof is clearly on those proposing such modification to show that the costs would really be less than the benefits if consensus cannot be obtain on this cost benefit estimate a compromise might be to tax phones which do not support wiretaps at a rate of say five cents per month a tax payable to police agencies nationwide to compensate them for their loss of wiretap abilities the invisible weapon oxford press isbn report on applications for orders authorizing or approving the interception of wire oral or electronic communications administrative office of u s courts washington dc u s statistical abstracts dorothy denning the clipper chip a technical summary distributed to sci crypt newsgroup april robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger in article apr shearson com whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed i ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever how about half a friend the motorola codex preliminary v fast modem which you can by right now does kbps raw over standard phone lines kbps is what is usually claimed for the final v fast but you can t go out and buy that right now the standard isn t done yet again voice can be compressed quite well down to or bps depending on how good you want it to be but that requires a dsp or a special asic to do in real time i think i am i think i am the little engine that philosophized
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article apr zip eecs umich edu dmuntz quip eecs umich edu dan muntz writes in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time from the original faq question does anyone take david sternlight serious fact no one takes david sternlight serious they review his opinions and in most cases immediately discard them or jerk them over to alt fan david sternlight which actually should be alt flame david sternlight a photograph of david sternlight for the curious o o c david sternlight net police a k a proud dick of the internet david police question why does david continue to relate mis statements regarding encryption and other topics fact david sternlight has a chemical imbalance of the right side of his brain martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them it s a lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on a per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year it isn t enough around a thousand for the average non crook non spy to worry about in fact considering any reasonable guess about the number of big time crooks and spies around it may not be enough even for most crooks and spies to worry about there s no reason to believe that it will go up with clipper since the number of taps now includes many targets too stupid to use encryption based on the playbacks we ve heard in court cases david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article strnlghtc t nh is netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because everyone but you expects that making alternative methods of encryption illegal is the next step otherwise the cripple chip is utterly worthless it should be obvious that a the cripple chip is aimed at spying on ordinary citizens or b that other forms of encryption will soon be illegal smg
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article apr fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it i believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license others will correct me if this is inaccurate dunno if you d get one for the particular code you have the only way to find out is to apply for a license note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such a license and what is legal to send if you don t david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may be imperfect it is a long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re fear uncertainty doubt in article r vo koj access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it s solid other people in the field say it s swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments since you asked the above is a bit inaccurate more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven t yet done their review of the chip design and there s been a lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us hin article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one far more effective than mass mailing of a standard letter this is taken usually to represent one pressure group is a set of individual letters perhaps nathaniel sammons or someone else would like to prepare a set of talking points from which individuals could compose their own letters david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year i believe you are mistaken i don t believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this that was probably me i meant only that nobody has overreacted yet it seemed to me that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and i vehemently disagree i see a lot of talk but not much action i see now that i misunderstood jerry s position the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they ll just bitch on the net for a while and then go back to lurking can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history actually it s not quite that bad but it s close look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure in article c wmu mqj cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year i believe you are mistaken i don t believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu hmmm now if we could have keys kept in escrow with one of the groups keeping a key being the government then the states would need federal permission to run a wiretap interesting possibility neil
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in article gradyc wgrz cvc netcom com grady netcom com ef wrote victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes i benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in c book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn t very fast it has also apparently been excised from the second edition lefty lefty apple com c m c d o d
sci.crypt	celp vocoders gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes absolutely i just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today s high speed modems not that i can think of many v bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it is said that celp vocoders can run on the highest speed s with some room to spare they turn kbit bit samples k samples sec into baud however dsp is hairy and i have yet to see actual proof of this in the form of an implementation i have heard fairly reliable rumors to the effect that a famous internetworking guru has a celp implementation that runs on sparcstation s with some room to spare but i have not succeeded thus far in getting my hands on a copy the guru in question has a reputation for not releasing code without having beaten on it for a very very long time first dsp experts are heavily encouraged to try their own hand at this problem perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	is key escrow enough from denning guvax acc georgetown edu revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they are not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the u s government while we are at it the chip design s should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm there is no proof that the chip won t squeel and role over for someone with the proper knowledge to interrogate it via the communications link the design examination should be done to the gate level also how does one verify that what you are looking at is reflected in tapeout or masks the silicon should be examined as well the design in hand a clean room publicly defined clipper chip can be merged with another design later or changed between completion and mask out there is little proof that what you are told is in the chip is all that is in the chip put the verified masks in escrow and use them for chip production use a third escrow party for programming the chips the government is asking for a lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation if the government is so trustworthy why escrow anything
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only amanda intercon com amanda walker writes we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy so start a company and build them this is still mostly a capitalist economy qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for a true private phone is an isdn codec a vocoder either a chip or software an encryptor a chip is fine but software is more than fast enough a v or v bis modem module and maybe a microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did i suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive however no law yet stops one from building really private phones in spite of the hints the administration has made when discussing the new crime bill and in connection with the clipper skipjack big brother chip someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re transparent cyphertext aej d cmuvm bitnet wrote in light of recent events it may soon become a very good idea to include the ability to produce transparent or at least non obvious cyphertext in upcoming revisions this won t help if the nsa fba axis requires all messages to undergo textual analysis and reduction to canonical form to eliminate concealed messages after reading several national computer security center documents i m convinced that they are already using this filter doubleplusgoodnot grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack given that certain archival methods have certain key cleartext in a file i used a programatic dictionary attack i used the des library provided with the system that i was using what is to keep anyone from being lucky with a key he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer my previous employment has nothing to do with my current address other than the fact that the fastest machine in the office was an ibm risc system model with meg of memory not a super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea i really think this more of a statement of the limitations placed on the key by the interface ascii char no padding and most programs don t bother to clear off the archival front and backend id s if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once yes any moderatly bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack most of todays real world encryption i sure that you or i could select a key and prepare the data inorder that the decryption will become a worst case but that is not the real world and i m sure that is how any agency would start an attack on a message as you pointed out there are some very good recognition algorithms availible i m just not familiar with them a g a g russell dept a s oltp section of pals group vm id sc at ausvm email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are my views on anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for a real civil war are put in place by a short sighted government everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history really i guess you mean the u s revolution how about england india mexico france holland that s not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you a disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me i don t want my children growing up in a police state rens disclaimer all opinions herein are mine and mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of any organization with which i may be affiliated o o j laurens troost unix systems at work rens imsi com investment management svcs inc at play rens century com east th street th floor phone new york new york fax o o ims is unlikely to share any of the above opinions
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more it is my intent to cut the government off at the knees with the pen and keyboard true the lawyer and the lawbook only go so far but i agree that it is best to use those resources to the maximum extent before seriously contemplating anything more disruptive
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever the reason i could theoretically trust apple though i m a pc person myself is that apple has to worry about their customers deserting them if they screw up badly enough the government doesn t have any such worry it can change the rules by force to get the outcome it wants this is the ultimate reason why private enterprise is usually more efficient than government agencies
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon mr sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling history lesson detailing deleted mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn t riot the minute they saw that film they waited on justice which never came ice t
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for a true private phone is an isdn codec a vocoder either a chip or software an encryptor a chip is fine but software is more than fast enough a v or v bis modem module and maybe a microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did have the feds shut down the people making sound blaster what about apple and next apple next sun and others make systems that can handle cd quality audio in and out and can perform arbitrary transformation on it in the process of transmitting it across a network or modem perhaps there s a market for a portable vocoder not a crypto device simply an rs voice converter make it capable of recording speech and playing it back simultaneously it has applications for multimedia computing for the handicapped internet talk radio irc etc etc etc it wouldn t be a cryptographic device at all but i suppose someone could have it hooked to a laptop with a v bis modem and some crypto software i d market the thing with an api for text to speech using simple phonemes and the ability to use speech samples and of course i d publish the interface to it so other folks could write any applications they wanted to talk to the thing mjr
sci.crypt	thoughts and questions i just joined this group recently and really do not know much about cryptography but a couple things came to mind while reading through the posts is the clipper chip going to be exported if not how will people communicate with other countries will they have to do that in un crypt mode will other encryption techniques be legal assuming the government cracks down on using others when going overseas but not within the states i ve read about authentication systems that use an electronic security card that looks like a calculator to create an encrypted pin based on the time date the host system has the algorithm built into it as well so that it can authenticate a user is there some form of encryption technology that would create keys that are only valid at a certain instant in time the systems would then allow a window of time around this instant where the key would work i realize that this technique would increase the amount of information needing to be stored because you would need entire algorithms rather than just keys but for smaller scale things it might work could some similar method be used to make the two bit keys that are issued to police fbi etc to tap a phone only usable for one week for instance if further surveilance was needed they would have to go back to the escrow service to get another key this would make it useless for local police to database keys they have used i assume this is not possible because the receiving phone would need to be able to decypher the message but any thoughts on the subject thanks tauren mills tauren mills tauren rigel cs pdx edu
sci.crypt	re ideas on clipper jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in article fpizbg wc qokyw andrew cmu edu you write suppose i knew how the algorithm worked and knew the n for my chip but did not know f then by cryptanalysis i might be able to determine f from if law enforcement field e e k u n f not knowing n would might make this much harder they re betting that you can t do this even if you know n even if you know e in fact which they re trying to keep secret if you can find e by grinding down the chip presumably you can find f as well but we can t do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search now suppose that i know f either legitimately or not if i know k either because i am involved in the conversation or i know u for a party in the conversation i may now be able to determine u for the other party again they re betting that you can t find u given k i e they claim the encryption is strong trust us i am not willing to take that bet if i know f i can also defeat the law enforcement field since i could make my own with a different k then the one i am using knowing f also allows traffic analysis to be performed so i might not know what you are saying but i could know who you are saying it too i m not sure there ll be a way to shove arbitrary key and data through your chip but if so this part s ok we re assuming e is unknown you can obviously shove arbitrary data through your chip as for the key it is stated that the sesion key exchange is external to the chip so i can pick my keys too now i admit that someone trying to compute u will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the u s will be chosen from know weak keys for the system they assume that you won t be able to find u no matter how many messages you have if they could break u they wouldn t need the key escrow bing bing bing bing bing that exactly my point since we cant know that they do not have this capability the only safe assumption is that they do i admit that most of my cryptographic complaints are probably unfounded but since we cant know one way or the other im not gonig to take their word for it obviously the compromise of f would be a disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security f is but one number and i sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know f forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine it s not clear that the experts will be told f in fact i d be surprised i d expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the s box constants jon
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper well i know one person who is ready to kill me and the victim is this whole topic damnit please stop copying all this crap to comp org acm please russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp or rschnapp metaflow com or rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice x fax la jolla california unless otw specified i m speaking only for myself
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper i have a couple reasons why i would be more likely to trust this algorithm the algorithm will be made totally public once it is patented the keys will not be escrowed of course if either of these is not true i will not use this new algorithm since i have never seen this new algorithm i have no idea how secure it is yet i suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn t for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn t i don t suggest that but post this to point out that there is a class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door i d have no problem with that phrasing i can t make any judgements about the algorithm itself yet but i do notice that the creators of this algorithm are being more open about how the thing works and is willing to make it public showing that after a bit of scrutiny any weaknesses will probably be revealed while we don t know about clipper doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article c uup wp news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they ve promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design i hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware while i doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point they have to expect that the chip will be reverse engineered sooner or later it s an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes the chip isn t the place to pull the monkey business you do it in the key generation either by having a mathematical backdoor or by having the program on the laptop that supposedly generates the keys also save a copy of s and s and leak it out somehow or by having the program that supposedly puts the official keys on the chip actually put a different key there very hard to detect since the escrow agents have to either trust the nsa laptop or give each other the s keys and they still don t know the algorithm or have the chip burner at the factory make copies of the keys or whatever pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can t be expensive because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses voice grade circuits to save the cost of long distance leased t s or satellite circuits i can t remember the generic term for these chips my impression is that this was a big deal years ago but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn t done much now lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order right people here believe the government is listening in on everything sure if you can t provide an answer change the assumptions to something you can deal with it s not a matter of the government listening on on everything it s a matter of the government listening on anyone they take an interest in say if you do something heinous like attend a computer meeting at a mall the secret service decides to go for a warrantless search and acquires your name it s a matter of any number of possible wiretap abuses that cryptology makes far less likely and this chip can sabotage par for the course though i predicted that you d be jumping in in favor of this the reply was that you d justify anything up to and including death camps as long as the government backed them and had a written policy statement perhaps a little extreme but not much seattle is an indian word meaning degrees and raining
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article c uphy gh dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes how fast do the fastest modems go v fast is targeted for about kbps kbps is and may be here soon too remember to ignore compression figures which make your modem go faster on compressible data because voice gets compressed better than that and encryption makes further compression impossible how far can voice be compressed the stu iii phones on the market from at t motorola and i forget who else give you a choice of and baud the and are celp and i think the is some earlier military vocoder stuff is decent is pretty artificial anything less is speak spell can produce quite adequate sound there s also some kbps celp around dsps have made it possible to do all this in real time for cheap old hand government crypto have trouble adjusting to systems faster than baud because if the voice on the other end sounds good you assume the crypto hasn t been turned on yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc wjag l netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain tom clancy omitted these key steps to try to prevent groups of people from building a nuclear bomb however he asserts that you can find these key steps in any university library the main point of five minutes to midnight is that it is impossible to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons since it has become easy to acquire the knowledge to build one and fissible materials are nearly impossible to control read this article or better yet run to your library yourself and dig up some stuff on constructing a nuclear weapon doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article r g l fdl sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative there are companies one in canada as i recall which specialize in analyzing chips to understand process technology design rules to understand the probable yield of the assembly line making them and therefore the probable current cost and possible future cost curves given design shrinks statistical quality control better yields etc taiwanese japanese and especially korean semiconductor manufacturers have all korea continues reverse engineered foreign chips and produced the chip taiwan and japan have signed intellectual property treaties and now at least extract the gate transitor level design before laying the chip out again the koreans still use mask level copying i believe at least they are under a lot of pressure to pass laws to meet international intellectual property standards all this despite lots of attempts to hide the designs there are lots of techniques to do so in both hardware and software design for a complex chip there will be real intellectual effort extracting the gate design from the transistor design and the algorithm from the gate design but it won t take two smart guys even months working hour weeks koreans work or more lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	encryption chip availibility hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks steve
sci.crypt	re ideas on clipper i was annoyed to find that this guy posted my private e mail response to him but since i believe what i said i ll defend it anyway in article gfpo wu wc qoq o andrew cmu edu jb m andrew cmu edu jon c r bennett writes jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in private e mail they re betting that you can t cryptanalyze e to get u given n but we can t do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search by almost i mean the differential cryptanalysis attack the chosen plaintext attack requires a detailed analysis of about chosen plaintexts drawn from a total of about that need to be run if i understand the situation correctly this is certainly a break under the meaning of the act but does not constitute much less work than the brute force keysearch the rest of his article assumes that we can figure out the skipjack encryption algorithm e by choosing the correct data to send through it and observe the results i wish him joy of it and choose not to try that attack i am not defending the system and in fact am offended by the ideas of escrowed keys or a secret algorithm becoming a de facto industry standard however i also object to opposing it for the wrong reasons since that weakens the case against it i said in my private e mail it s not clear that the experts will be told f in fact i d be surprised i d expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the s box constants no it s quite different the government would have no percentage in choosing f to be a weak key since it s not to their advantage to have anybody else know it the experts could thus assume that f is no worse than anything else during their analysis totally different situation from unknown s boxes again i m not saying it would be good or satisfactory for the experts to just be given the raw algorithm without the rest of the surrounding details regarding the chip and protocols and so on simply that i doubt that they would be given all the information jim gillogly trewesday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes for example a conversation between a suspect and a lawyer will no longer be private from big brother eavesdropping now almost years later we have the right words for the problem here phone calls are virtual visits those experienced in virtual reality would know from that title that phone calls need to have all the properties of a walk in the park with your friend security from casual overhearing and easy verification to see if anyone is listening secretively as designed they fail at that trouble is telephones were invented a long time ago and people didn t realize the danger or the concept of virtual reality back then disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article c trgt ew news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption so much for clinton s support of the right of privacy there s an out for him the announcement talked about strong cryptography i believe specifically nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product every vendor claims his product is unbreakable so this was sloppy wording i am not claiming that we private citizens should have access to the nsa s best secret algorithms i don t want any nsa algorithms actually i ll let them break my pitiful amateur algorithms and rsa s all i want is what i have already the ability and right to invent and use my own algorithms share them with my friends and sell them disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	write to clinton i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	encryption chips does anyone know where i can get a hold of some secure encrypting chips or devices before they are banned completely steve if encryption is outlawed only outlaws will have encryption
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption to sci crypt there has been some discussion of our company secured communications technologies inc and on encryption algorithm nea i spoke to craig at length on and we covered a lot of ground some of the information in the posting requires some clarification and i would like to answer some of the questions raised on sci crypt sct is a small company based in silver spring maryland our two main products at this time are a pc based secure communications program called secom and a general purpose encryption chip which uses the nea algorithm developed for secom secom provides an encrypted secure communication link between two pc s connected over dial up telephone lines it supports simultaneous bi directional file transfer and keyboard to screen chat it has its own proprietary communications protocol which is tightly integrated to the encryption all though it is a packetized link the data stream appears to be continuous because the packet boundaries are hidden when secom was initially developed it was implemented to use des encryption a business decision was made to seek export approval for the product because it was perceived that the overseas market was a large one and provided a good marketing opportunity we soon found out that we would never be granted general export approval for anything using des all though the reason for this was never explicitly stated it seems to have something to do with secret government to government agreements which are still in effect in any event the decision was made to develop a new and different algorithm which would take the place of des this was the reason nea new encryption algorithm was born at this time nea is being held as a trade secret the preliminary work of patenting it has begun and the plan is to make it public once the patent process is complete all though one can make certain legal arguments for keeping it an ongoing secret i think in the case of an encryption algorithm it is necessary to let people shoot at it over an extended period of time to prove its worth in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had a finished product to submit let me state unequivocally that there is no back door to the program or the algorithm secured communications technologies is a closely held private company and nsa fbi cia nist whatever has no financial interest in any way whatsoever with the company or any of the people involved from a practical business standpoint we are interested in selling chips and software hopefully in large quantities and a back door to the encryption if found out could destroy our credibility and our business with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set out to talk to a number of potential customers for encryption products and systems we were able to identify several common threads of functionality requirements this led to the design of a chip with the encryption algorithm cast in silicon and certain other capabilities added so that the chip could fulfill the broad range of requirements that we identified we are strongly opposed to the clipper capstone chips in a press release today our president dr stephen bryen stated it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public but do we not understand how the national security agency which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u s government domestic spying activities if they had asked me to put a back door in nea i would have told them to g f ed can nsa break nea or for that matter can they break des rsa idea diffy hellman pgp rc rc or whatever i don t know and probably never will
sci.crypt	info on mathematics of encryption wanted i just signed up for this group so i hope i m not missing something in a faq but i m looking for a good introduction to the mathematics of encryption particularly des and public key though others would be interesting also probably a good library could help me out but i thought it might be even easier if i could obtain a nice article entirely electronically besides i have this rather rational phobia of libraries for reasons stemming from this dissertation thing hanging over my head i have a basic knowledge of mathematics number theory is a bit unfamiliar to me but i ve had a few graduate level math courses in some other areas anyway i m not a complete novice to the field so probably something aimed at a basic graduate introductory level would be about right something anyway which is more specific than a really big prime number is generated to code the message if someone knows of a good text available by ftp or gopher or would like to email me one please let me know i ll probably keep reading this group but it would be nice if you would email me at the same time so i don t miss it thanx lulu this message was brought to you by postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer surely you don t think that i believe them
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r vjhinn iq dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef writes if you can get it for a buck nd hand it must be true eh i m pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to a variety of places i don t recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn t illegal and des certainly isn t what is the basis of the government s cease and desist demand the spooks do whatever they think is necessary with or without the blessings of the law i ll say no thanks to clipper or anything else the government produces for the moment double or triple des is probably adequate and when the line is idle send random garbage just to keep em busy david hayes merlin lerami lerctr org
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it a circut court judge in illinois once said when dealing with a government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its citizenry one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis uni uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits robin hanson hanson kronos arc nasa gov wrote would wiretap chip be cost effective summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents a month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective robin s calculation is interesting and important even if it s off by an order of magnitude for example even if hardware costs for the clipper chip phones were zero the protocol overhead in transmitting the escrow field would be much higher than the part in thousand it depends on the exact details of the phone call length protocol etc shorter calls get a proportionately greater hit however i suspect most americans will not find this line of reasoning as persuasive as the analogies about escrowing keys to one s house are tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the following document summarizes the clipper chip how it is used how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications interesting tell us what happens if i were to say ok i want to have something else if the law enforcement wants my traffic they can record it then get a search warrant and get the keys from me just like they would the keys to a stout private safe etc lets say i suspect that there is a way to trivially crack this at the fed level with no warrant say for nsa scanning for keywords etc and the government has abused great power in the past so i say mr vendor i want something different independent i am a paranoid sort ya understand will the result be sorry without government permission we cannot sell you anything secure or would it be sorry we know which side our bread is buttered on we cannot sell except to government people law enforcement and special people what in your opinion would be the chances of sure we will sell you this secure system be happy to also please be so kind as to tell us what the plans are for private encryption of say files transferred by modem or ftp or data stored on disk surely you have a feel for what the administration is planning for us people on that with your rather intimate relationship with the fbi nsa etc you must certainly have an idea you are surely not going to say the people are not to know until it is too late this is supposed to be government of the people by the people isn t it that is the people are the government s bosses the bosses want to know what the is going on here you see i am kind of nervous because in the last month or so i have seen a non stop stream of ideas coming out of wash dc that at least appear very strongly to have a common trait to limit privacy freedom from govt eavesdropping and the ability to defend ourselves against violent attack no is not good enough for common folk they arrive only in time to clean up the mess i would be dead if i had to depend on you see with all that talk about national smart id cards limiting of encryption to government approved denial of means to effective personal defense eight bills in congress right now it looks an awfully lot like the whole thing is to be able to trace every activity of an individual from cradle to grave all it would take is requiring that national id card to be used in all transactions and with no effective data protection and with the people suitably disarmed there would not be a helluva lot they could do about it now would there all in the name of the war on the constitu er drugs and of course that catch word terrorists what is wrong with good old fashioned police work to build a case they don t want to have to be burdened to leave the office it seems please read the bill of rights first ten amendments to the us constitution and tell us how you can reconcile this big brother ish policy of the administration always for a crisis of some kind isn t it with that bill of rights in the context of the people who wrote it reassure us please or is that no longer regarded as necessary seeing as apparantly the people have no input on this agenda the administration preferring to make all the decisions in secret then springing it on us doesn t sound much like by the people to me i cannot help notice that the congress people involved were not mentioned on the press release i find that more than a little bit curious don t you i sure would like to know who to not vote for come election time yes i am upset i feel you are a part of this because i recall it was you that was posting heavily in favor of a very similar idea could have been the same thing it was so close a few months ago i also recall it was not well received apparantly powers that be really didn t care or were not told or both from what i see clipper will only be useful for conversations i don t want the neighborhood kid listening in on any serious security i don t think i would want to trust it a bit might as well use cleartext certainly corporations would be rather dumb to depend on this for serious trade secret data especially if millions depended on that security given enough money one could buy any keys they wanted buy a crooked judge and a crooked cop given a few hundred thou they wouldn t be hard to find so we end up with only criminals terrorists and the government with real security and the ability to eavesdrop you know the first two if they are serious ain t going to use this thing for their communications i bet the government won t either except perhaps to order a pizza tell us will that be prima face evidence of criminal activity someone not using the government approved methods that just a desire to have privacy is no longer regarded as a legitimate right of an unconnected citizen will that be grounds for a fly through the door raid and confiscation of all one s equipment as terrorist tools using civil forfeiture so there will be no inconvenient need to prove any wrongdoing on the part of the citizen i have yet another question are we going to see articles in all the public magazines consisting of soothing text telling us how great this is how nice the government is by letting us have this illusion of privacy that the government is going to be so kind as to let us sort of exercise a right what you want to bet that i am correct here please answer these questions as citizens of the united states we hava a right to know what our government plans to let us have out of the goodness of their hearts funny thing though with all these proposals i don t feel one bit safer from drug dealers terrorists or a common street thug i am beginning to wonder if the greater danger lies in the above entities or our own government gone out of control re assure us please so far i haven t seen much to reassure me and a lot to greatly disturb me pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re fear uncertainty doubt more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven t yet done their review of the chip design and there s been a lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese oh that puts the debate on excellent terms for our side feds you people saying that clipper is insecure don t have any real information to support that judgment me fine show me this information that would prove me wrong feds that s secret when it comes down to that it looks suspiciously like some government official pasting top secret stamps over embarrasing information in order to save his own hide in fact framing the secrecy issue in that perspective is more likely to turn joe sixpack s suspicions against the feds than the constitutional argument a point i urge the others on the pro freedom side to consider when making their case
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful the clipper chip s user key is formed by r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s why is the triple encrytion used is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat a potential keysearch if so why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm it s not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s s why are n n and n formed as they are it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way where do the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n n n come from are they changed from chip to chip or session to session even if they re published in the ny times if skipjack is resistant to known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there s no break in security but why allow that kind of weird format if those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe it s used to ensure that a known plaintext attack on skipjack if it exists can t be easily used to derive s and s for a whole production run of these chips does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip john kelsey
sci.crypt	re is key escrow enough the points raised about checking what is actually in the chip as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even if we assume that these trusted agents are really entering a wide range of s and s seeds rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to bits i assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data they would presumably be punching numbers into a computer which for all they know could program the chips in a manner completely independent of the s and s values they are feeding into the system
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don t do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn t have encryption is not because the g men came a knocking at qualcomm s door it s because qualcomm doesn t think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again if you don t believe me call qualcomm and ask them don t just throw out conspicracy theories at least don t do it on sci crypt there are whole other newsgroups devoted to this kind of uninformed claptrap any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did i suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive hah they re not that much more expensive besides if a drug dealer can afford a rolex and a mercedes he can darn well afford cylink phones no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn t so cylink makes money that s capitalism comrade someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it s so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it your name would become known and loved by dozens but no that would require actual effort servalan
sci.crypt	crypto papers on the net i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq on a related topic can anyone point me toward good sites to find papers articles discussions of cryptology i think i ve about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn t seem to have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey
sci.crypt	pgp ideas for ibm systems i ve been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available in some form on ebcdic machines the message authentication would be ugly but i think at least the idea encryption could work if pgp had a switch to tell it to use idea in ofb mode or ecb mode in ofb mode errors in translating ebcdic ascii ebcdic would only affect their byte not the bytes that would be affected under cbc is pgp set up to use different idea modes i don t recall notincing it in the executable but i haven t gone through it as carefully as i probably should john kelsey
sci.crypt	why are we being censored in a free america this node specificaly i have been scanning and trying to read the articles in the sci crypt area but what do i get surprisingly the blurb comes upon the screen file xxx has either been cancelled or expired now i ask you if it expired wouldn t it be out of the available file cache i am and not a paranoid but the older i get the greater my cynicism of both federal and state governments becomes the censorship of this internet and it is no less than censorship stupid me it s the govt is ridiculous the japanese have far outstripped our ciphertechnology and our government is now before your very observant eyes trying to force the crypto standard onto a framefork where the standard is now an ancient relic in terms of modern japanese security techniques now i pose the question why censor folks on the net and send the warning shown above cancelled or expired when it would be wiser to not let people see the post at all which article of the constitution gives me the right of revolution if things seem to be going cockeyed hmmm peter g white president synthesis inc milwaukee wisconsin u s a peter white mixcom com
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had a finished product to submit with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set please don t be insulted but based on this i would say that your encryption algorithm is very likely not worth the paper it s printed on if the nsa gave export approval that means they felt confident that they could crack it that s their job mandated by law and i m sure they believe in what they do if they gave export approval to an encryption algorithm which they weren t confident of being able to crack they would be derelict in their sworn duty to monitor foreign communications for us national security related material just because many most of us think that the government and the spooks are pugnacious slimeballs is no reason to lose sight of the fact that they do their jobs to the best of their ability and further that said ability is rather high i hope that one day we can make them all obsolete but until then we have to cope with their existence export approvals are one thing they do that we can learn a lot from for example robert bickford rab well sf ca us don t blame me i voted libertarian
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for a lot of purposes however it is still very adequate jon olnes norwegian computing centre oslo norway e mail jon olnes nr no or jon ifi uio no
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i second the motion all in favor in favor if y all have any newsletters or are taking down addresses for any in the future feel free to put me on such a list
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes in article amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes if you can get it for a buck nd hand it must be true eh i m pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to a variety of places i don t recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold story deleted let me give you another story that actually happened to me we sell communications boards that use a they used to be high tech our agent in the uk sold a system to a company in ch which packaged it in a product for cz london bern prague i telexed the brits and told them the swiss need to pass export paperwork through the us as at the time you needed an export lisence for these systems now i knew the nsa was watching this traffic just like they are watching this traffic and what do you know two weeks later an agent of the us government shows up in my office to remind me if we or our agents sold systems into the evil empire we had better make sure the export lisences were handled properly he was part of a five man office in columbus ohio who did this stuff based on sources he could not reveal i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn t that much stuff coming out of columbus wow the electric utility in prague sure is a big worry for these folks the point is we have created a giant bureaucracy nsa with a budget bigger than the cia s who like all bureaucracies fill their time looking for things to do the evil empire is gone the nsa is not they will do something to fill their time and justify their budgets i just wish they too would sit around with their thumbs up their ass but that is too much to hope for they will spy on us and do things like skipjack and subvert people like dorothy denning sigh information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data you mean something like uuencode it isn t super crypto but it is encrypted scott scott moir satyr on irc there s really only one requirement smoir world std com for a prophet and you ve got it b f t w g k s m r p what s that also pentangl ursa major spdcc com a mouth god to j r bob dobbs
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article apr fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it i believe it s legal to send des code or equipment from the us to canada with no export license i think this is the only place you can do this all other countries require a license as an aside i ve always thought it should be legal to send des software anywhere if you follow these rules encrypt your des software with des send the encrypted software to the recipient send the key to the recipient the only way the person on the other end can use your des software is if he she already has des available otherwise they can t decrypt your program and it is useless if you ve guaranteed they already have des have you really violated any law by sending it to them in the form of your program i m sure it s still illegal but it seems like a good idea todd
sci.crypt	does rush read his e mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob i seem to recall rush saying that he has a compuserve account if anyone wants to e mail him all we need is his account number i e and then we could e mail him via gateway by using a dot instead of a comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his e mail address he says he uses it all the time i wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes in naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in a non government escrow good idea but why put all the eggs in one basket given that the escrow keys are generated at a time on floppy disks why not keep them there rather than creating one huge database that will have to be guarded better than fort knox give each floppy to a different bank for safekeeping the usa has over banks and thrifts there are not likely to be more than clipper phones sold ross
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in strnlghtc who fk netcom com david sternlight writes in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises i don t see why anyone wouldn t have confidence in those
sci.crypt	re new encryption psionic wam umd edu haywood j blowme writes additonally i spoke with mr melnick about their algorithm he couldn t tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn t been patented yet right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is a very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard if they re planning on patenting an algorithm then i hope they go out of business as quickly as possible and you can tell them i said that i m sure many other readers of these newsgroups will agree too mathew
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc they are implemented in micron technology and will initially sell for about each in quantities of or more the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to micron hmmmmmm seems a bit expensive how big is the chip what kind of packages will be used volt or volt technology how much current will it draw i think there are many practical questions that haven t been answered especially since this chip already exists all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters a secret random bit value s into the laptop and agent enters a secret random bit value s these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are a function of secret random bits where each agent knows only ok i ve got a big problem with all of this how in the world do you expect to sell these chips for even after all the overhead involved in this programming procedure people a laptop only chips at a time give me a break and how long does all of this take even if it is a minute per chip it will take the greater part of a day to turn out of these things how long do you suppose it will take to program those chips mentioned above this is highly impractical to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end so where can i find info on this at t device what kind of vocoder does it use does it require isdn phone lines if not is it full duplex how does it sound what kind of synchronization scheme is used will all other little black boxes have to conform to at ts choices of protocol etc will anybody else be allowed to build boxes that conform to these specifications doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in c x xs ef lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn t illegal and des certainly isn t what is the basis of the government s cease and desist demand something similar has happened to me ages ago when we were working on pgp we used to send short messages about development issues or simply to test new features around now at this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin at the site i was using received a request that i stop sending encrypted email now there is almost no way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn t have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types in the message tried to unscramble it found they couldn t get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked me to stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks in case people think email scanning doesn t take place i can assure you that it is done regularly by many sites usually not by government agencies or at least not that i know of but by local administrators who for reasons of their own have decided to monitor all communications i m sure you can all think of a whole mess of reasons stop hackers terrorists child pornographers drug dealers evil commies whatever there have been several occasions when i ve got people into trouble simply by including the traditional nsa bait in a message i don t try it any more now a friend of mine was once picked up for mentioning the name of the uk town of scunthorpe hint look for words embedded in it i m sure there are many more examples of this happening in fact if anyone has any examples i d appreciate hearing from them i could use them as ammunition during talks on privacy issues peter pgut cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em s bound to work don t vote you ll only encourage them
sci.crypt	re new encryption martin world std com martin j hannigan writes hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo c david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand i never advocated hiding in the sand i m advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible unless you want blood on your hands how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for a real civil war are put in place by a short sighted government read the above everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen i type corrected really i guess you mean the u s revolution how about england india mexico france holland english revolution what revolution they never had one india if they could get around their religion restrictions mexico point taken i forgot about this one france napoleon bonepart would have something to say about this holland i didn t know they had one won t comment because i don t know enough that s not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic actually i consider the issue on topic when you start gambling with fire crackers sooner or later somebody is going to lose a hand when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech fine exercise the right to free speech that s great but don t resort to armed violence until there s no other possibility perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you a disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight no i believe there are bad cops and good cops there are bad people and good people and all that grey inbetween i have had the pleasure of knowing a police officer who did his best to uphold the laws he swore to defend i have also seen what happens when police power is abused don t generalize in either direction it just causes problems the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me i don t want my children growing up in a police state me either nice can of worms ain t it jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day i never advocated not saying what you believe in i m advocating second thought and calm a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about it uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago that would be a v ticket presumably not a v ticket the v ticket format can even be complicated several more orders of magnitude lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article sfpzmnz bwwbmdwhuc transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes martin world std com martin j hannigan writes hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo c david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh hopefully he doesnt take it personal martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix
sci.crypt	strong encryption i just posted this reply to comp risks answering risks digest summary re mark seecof key escrow from mark seecof marks wimsey latimes com subject key escrow clipper chip risks advances in digital computing have made it possible for ordinary people to use powerful machine cipher techniques it is tempting albeit chauvinistic to believe that we have a new situation here thanks to our pet computers this is not true david kahn s the codebreakers a history of cryptography makes two things obvious cryptography is a spontaneous invention of private human individuals and has been going on for thousands of years teen age slang and cipher inventions provide a modern example of this spontaneous creation the systems people created on their own were roughly as secure as and sometimes more secure than those used by military and diplomatic users of that time although they seem very simple and insecure today e g in places the bible used a more complex simple substitution than caesar did for his military dispatches but before caesar i commend kahn s book to all who might be interested disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more russotto vnet ibm com matthew t russotto writes in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises i don t see why anyone wouldn t have confidence in those i don t think mr clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme so his assurances are of no value at al if he gives them he just says what a panel of experts told him if i lived in the usa i would hope those experts were not paid by the fill here you favorite letter combination j c a wevers the only nature of reality is physics johan stack urc tue nl
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons wrote if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one you should realize that form letters are the worst way to influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder if you want to write and i think you should take the time to really write a letter things to emphasize it s been said that usenet is available to the technical elite i e the techies at corporate sites and universi ties emphasize that you are part of the group that will be making developing using clinton s data superhighway explain how you are intimately familiar with both computing and data communications if this is the case don t call your self an expert after wiring in a bps modem this will distinguish your letter from the random flamers don t turn it into braggadocio just tell them that you know the technical sides of the issue don t overdo jargon and gobbledygook remember your letter will be first read in all likelihood by a staffer who may even be a college student if they don t understand it your views won t even make the running total sheets be concise don t ramble rants are definitely out of place cite references if necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals my neighbor jim is not a real refer ence unfortunately very few congresscritters really understand electronic communications encourage them to pick up access to compuserve america online or one of the free nets offer to send them samples if you are in a position to do so offer them or their staffers back in the home state access to your systems offer to give a demonstration the next time they re in town your offer to get personally involved in helping them will give your opinions more credence in addition to sending mail to your representatives send mail to the members of the committee or subcommittee that is dealing with the issue if your congresscritter isn t on the committee they can t be of much help until the matter comes to the floor wes ps i d suggest drawing analogies between digital communication and the more traditional media but usenet doesn t have a decent track record in the analogy department rachel elizabeth morgan am oh yeah i can be reached as pounds ounces despite coming weeks early morgan engr uky edu to netters who gave constant encouragement and prayer thanks for everything
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes hmmm i also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name clipper for this device not to mention computer associates i ll have to be careful to stop telling people i m a clipper programmer they might lynch me mathew
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail rick ee uwm edu rick miller writes rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob i seem to recall rush saying that he has a compuserve account if anyone wants to e mail him all we need is his account number i e and then we could e mail him via gateway by using a dot instead of a comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his e mail address he says he uses it all the time i wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion i ve heard he doesn t read alt fan rush but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage before they do some real damage you haven t been paying attention it seems the so called war on drugs has already done major damage to the us constitution howard s shubs hshubs bix com for to win victories in the denim adept hshubs cis umassd edu battles is not the acme of skill
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air he ll slam clinton for anything at all on the air i just do not understand why he remains so popular he ll take a piece of video of clinton walking along find a frame in which clinton wrinkles his nose say freeze on it and blow it up full screen and then rant for five minutes on how no one could possibly trust someone with such a face and such beady greedy little eyes i ve seen this on his tv show it was around the time of the inauguration can anyone call this stuff legitimate i hate to say informed commentary how can anyone with half a brain in his or her head continue to watch it the american tv watching and i guess radio listening public never ceases to amaze me j oops have i just inadvertently answered my own question i myself only see it when i run across it every couple months when channel surfing late at night the longest i ve been able to stand him was about minutes apologies for stripping the alt fan rush groups from the newsgroups line the software here apparently rejects anything with groups we don t carry and we don t carry those also i removed sci crypt from followups nets levin bbn com there were sweetheart roses on yancey wilmerding s pots bureau that morning wide eyed and distraught she n mnf stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor s j perelman
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the u s government that s why it s so hard to export therefore we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography better i think is our right peacably to assemble i have a right to meet you in a park and talk privately i have a right to see if anyone is nearby listening in cyberspace cryptography gives us a right to assemble with control over who overhears us disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home there is one point i d like to make that most people seem to have forgotten that is that one of the underlining principles in the constitution is a distrust of governmental authority and control all those checks balances is because they realize that you should distrust those in power what everyone seems to have forgotten as well is the original reason that the bill of rights guaranteed the right to bear arms it s inclusion was not to allow you to protect yourself against other citizens but to prevent the government from taking away your only means of protecting yourself from an armed and aggressive government its hard to oppress your citizenry when its armed against you i am not a fanatic i m a retired naval officer because i have spent so much time defending it perhaps i understand its purpose as well as its plan lance kimes
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes other posts deleted i ve heard he doesn t read alt fan rush but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address does anyone have rush limbaugh s e mail address is there anyone out there on compuserve who might be able to look it up or otherwise find it maybe it would be impossible but i thought i should at least ask mr weather r b zeus tamu edu ken blair
sci.crypt	re write to clinton in r a h t transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house i ve already written a char commentary from my mci mail account so i can t be accused of being a hacker arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	program eurocrypt may lofthus norway program eurocrypt may lofthus norway general chair kaare presttun email eurocrypt alcatel no program chair tor helleseth department of informatics university of bergen n bergen norway email torh ii uib no monday may session authentication chair j seberry welcome and opening remarks on the relation between a codes and codes correcting independent errors t johansson b smeets lund university sweden and g kabatianskii institute for problems of information transmission russia optimal authentication systems r safavi naini and l tombak university of wollongong australia coffee or tea session public key chair a odlyzko factoring integers using simd sieves b dixon princeton university usa and a k lenstra bellcore usa a new elliptic curve based analogue of rsa n demytko telecom research laboratories australia weaknesses of a public key cryptosystem based on factorization of finite groups j stern ens france lunch session block ciphers chair a de santis differentially uniform mappings for cryptography k nyberg technical university of vienna austria on permutations against differential cryptanalysis t beth and c ding eiss university of karlsruhe germany two new classes of bent functions c carlet inria france boolean functions satisfying a higher order strict avalanche condition t w cusick suny buffalo usa coffee or tea session secret sharing chair y desmedt size of shares and probability of cheating in threshold schemes m carpentieri a de santis and u vaccaro university of salerno italy nonperfect secret sharing schemes and matroids k kurosawa k okada k sakano w ogata and s tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan tuesday may session streamciphers i chair t helleseth from the memoars of a norwegian cryptolog e selmer university of bergen norway invited talk on the linear complexity of products of shift register sequences r gottfert and h niderreiter austrian academy of sciences vienna austria coffee or tea session streamciphers ii chair d gollman resynchronisation weaknesses in synchronous stream ciphers j daemen r govaerts and j vandewalle esat ku leuven belgium blind synchronization of m sequences with even span r games and j j rushanan mitre usa on constructions and nonlinearity of correlation immune functions j seberry x zhang and y zheng university of wollongong australia lunch session digital signatures chair c schnorr practical and provable secure release of a secret and exchange of signatures i b damgard aarhus university denmark subliminal communication is easy using the dsa g j simmons can oss be repaired d naccache gemplus france coffee or tea session protocols i chair k kurosawa limitations of logical analysis of cryptographic protocols c boyd and w mao university of manchester united kingdom practical anonymous and secure voting scheme k itoh c park and k kurosawa tokyo institute of technology japan untransferable rights in a client independent server environment j domingo ferrer university of barcelona spain interactive hashing simplifies zero knowledge protocol design r ostrovsky uc berkeley usa r venkatesan bellcore usa and m yung ibm t watson usa rump session chair i ingemarsson accepted paper security in digital mobile communication systems c park k kurosawa t okamoto and s tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan wednesday may session hash functions chair b preneel one way accumulators a decentralized alternative to digital signatures j benaloh and m de mare clarkson university usa some attacks on the arl hash function i b damgard and l r knudsen aarhus university denmark collisions for the compression function of md b den boer and a bosselaers esat ku leuven belgium how to find and avoid collisions for the knapsack hash function j patarin bull cp france coffee or tea session payment systems chair i b damgard single term off line coins n t ferguson cwi amsterdam the netherlands improved privacy in wallets with observers r j f cramer cwi amsterdam the netherlands and t p pedersen aarhus university denmark how to prevent the mafia fraud using distance bounding protocols s brands and d chaum cwi amsterdam the netherlands lunch session cryptanalysis chair g j simmons on the distribution of characteristics in bijective mappings l o connor university of waterloo canada on the security of the idea block cipher w meier htl switzerland linear cryptanalysis method for des cipher m matsui mitsubishi japan new types of cryptanalytic attacks using related keys e biham technion israel coffee or tea session protocols ii chair p landrock reconciliation on a secret key through public discussion g brassard and l salvail university of montreal canada global unpredictable bit generation without broadcast d beaver and n so penn state university usa iacr business meeting keywords
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement bear tigger cs colorado edu bear giles writes i wish them luck in figuring out who i am based on that information they can probably figure out i m liberal with a technical degree but humanistic interests from a common thread throughout my posts but that describes a fair portion of the users of internet sounds like you are the brother of sibble to me hey that wasn t nice oh shut up i m posting now both of you pipe down or i will take control of the arms and sock you in the mouth
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote as a private citizen i would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever the problem is that laws can change congress may pass a law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had a clipper system do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid court order in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through a court challenge john eaton hp vcd johne
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among a number of things on the drop of a hat they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate in article cmm jon gode ifi uio no jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for a lot of purposes however it is still very adequate this sounds an awful lot like a password guesser not a weakness in des merritt and i pointed out this weakness in kerberos in a paper that came out about years ago in both computer communications review and usenix for that matter it was loudly discussed on the kerberos mailing list even earlier the problem has nothing whatsoever to do with des and everything to do with bad password selection i m perfectly willing to believe that there are cryptanalytic attacks possible on des i m quite dubious that private research labs know them and the parameters of a brute force attack are quite well established see for example the garon and outerbridge paper in the july cryptologia you re not going to do it in an hour with only rather powerful des hardware i ll leave the arithmetic as an exercise for the reader on average you ll need to do trials pick your own parameters for how fast the des engine runs and for how many such engines are used
sci.crypt	crypto penpals i came i lurked i read the faq now having purchased the recommended books and having taken to heart the advice that one knows nothing about crypto without having done a stint as a cryptanalyst i would like to correspond with people interested in cryptology i am working on implementing the cryptanalyst s workbench example in booch s ood with applications i hope to start sending ciphers back and forth so each of us can practice cracking them i would like to start with simple ceaser s ciphers and progress roughly according to david kahn s book of course i would be interested in general discussions and math also i hope to have some foriegn correspondants so that we can test the response time of the men in the suits i ve been hearing so much about unfortunately as a product of the american education system i only know english looking forward to any and all responses james james m kliegel kliegel key amdahl com
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in r av bg transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among a number of things on the drop of a hat they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet that s what mci mail is for compuserve also has congressgrams tm this is not intended as an advertisement that really is what mci mail was intended for according to their ads arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	clipper freedom comments begin pgp signed message gasp i ve just spent hours catching up on sci crypt here slow reader i guess and i really have to put out a few comments too first let me flame the famous dave s he s obviously only years old cut him some slack the joke about clinton crypto drugs slammed me thru the roof nice job guys i ve been working on marijuana legalization for over years now clinton s actions so far have really helped but because of government action taken against various other groups i have developed a bit des based on public literature to protect my mailing list the s boxes are the critical component and since i chose out of based on the key cracking this des is going to tough the reason it slows you down a touch is that for each key you try you need to use a different set of s boxes i know it s only a vector but it sure makes random search a pain several marijuana legalization groups have had their mailing lists confiscated when people were charged with drug use sales it s not a crime to be a member of a legalization org but you will be watched it really is important to write a letter to every official you personally vote for to explain why your privacy is being destroyed by the cripple chip amazingly enough they do listen when they get enough mail the doonsbery jokes about nra postcards are real and the imi illinois marijuana initiative has grown to the point where we are seeing some changes it s pretty clear that all the hullabaloo is really about the implimentation decision being made behind our backs as vesselin points out this was common practice in communist regimes and may be again depending on how the vote goes but just as criminals have guns and law abiding citizens don t and criminals like me have marijuana and law abiding subjects don t criminals like me will have secure crypto while law abiding robots don t pgp is nice but as time goes on we all can do better and to save our hides we will someone posted an excerpt from machiavelli he s my favorite dude years ago he saw clearly how people are and tried to explain that to princes who wanted people to obey one section not quoted i ve got the prince at home so i ll just paraphrase had to do with conquring a free city the only way is to completly destroy it failing that you must appoint locals to high positions and accept the people s customs even after years of oppression a people will remember their heratige and rise up to overthrow the oppresive government and he gave an example and that was years before thomas jefferson there were questions about watching traffic only interesting traffic is watched stuff that goes overseas and comes back stuff with keywords like marijauana cryptography nsa certain individuals who are known subversives etc it is easy enough to store all that traffic so if you know how to be subversive i e how to be unseen it s pretty easy to go unnoticed for a long time the stronger your crypto system and the less you re noticed the better your chances of developing an organization which can diseminate truth to the masses which gets me to the thread about a public encrypted conference that s just silly the first thing the feds do is send in an infiltrator like dave s and they know what you re doing it will be fun for teenagers and college students but for the real world it s pretty pointless crypto is useful for more things than hiding where you get your marijuana guns drugs and crypto do have some commonality there are people in government who want you to obey their rules as lundquist says in alt drugs live free or don t machiavelli pointed out that s just how most people actually live inspite of appearences to the contrary it s true that the decision to shove the clipper not the same thing as intergraph s down our throats violates the principles of what the u s was founded on but the government is full of idiotic robots called bureaucrats and there s less to worry about than one might think only really innocent read naive subjects of the u s will be hurt by this the rest of us criminals will live in secure freedom de toqueville pointed out years ago that the tyranny of the majority will be mitigated by the mediocrity of the government and given what i see government officials doing where i work argonne national lab the level of stupidity makes dave s look smart patience persistence truth work dvader hemp imi hep anl gov dr mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever then there s also because it s not secret if i want to i can go look at apple s copyrighted roms in a mac so they re not keeping any secrets you don t even have to pry the top off the chip and use an electron microscope you just have to read the data in memory and see if you can figure out what it means motorola object code isn t all that obscure yes it s copyrighted so i can t go selling copies or using the copy myself but i can see it and disassemble it they re not asking me to trust their honesty they re asking me to trust the quality of their assembly language programming but i can see for myself what the performance price and crashes day are nsa an organization not known for its honesty or openness is asking me to trust them with my privacy but they won t trust me feh pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper not good enough for government there s been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds n ends in the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at t may not be suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey in a letter to commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to inadvertently increased costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april communications daily show me a guy who s afraid to look bad and i ll show you a guy you can beat every time renee auberjonois
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don t do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn t have encryption is not because the g men came a knocking at qualcomm s door it s because qualcomm doesn t think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again perry has already stated on the net that qualcomm wanted to sell overseas and the government told them they wouldn t be allowed to export so he s only blowing the same smoke you are sure they probably could have made a us version and a non crypto export version and contracted with a bulgarian or japanese software house to develop an overseas crypto rom but that s getting pretty expensive no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn t so cylink makes money that s capitalism comrade well some people like capitalism and others prefer free enterprise they re different using the government to stifle your competition is capitalist someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it s so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it writing good crypto code is something most good programmers can do writing good new crypto algorithms is a very specialized skill developing new voice coding algorithms is also pretty specialized but finding ways to implement the more complex ones when you don t have enough horsepower is still fairly hairy stuff once the pentium becomes widespread or the next generation of sound boards has dsps on it i suspect we ll see it happen maybe the vanilla soundblaster is enough pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc wjag l netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain on the other hand when john aristotle phillips was a junior at princeton trying to keep from flunking physics by doing a terrific term paper his atom bomb design was good enough that it got classified a few of the steps were derived from social engineering e g the name of the explosive but it was fundamentally sound and did get an a the pakistan embassy also called him up trying to get a copy at the time they were lobbying the us government to get some nuclear reactors for purely non military electrical power generation pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it great slogan i m ready to sign up with a crypto lobbying effort though i wouldn t want to do it through an nra offshoot shall we also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article c y k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn t catch on the scheme breaks down and the government is back to the drawing boards assuming that they haven t prohibited alternatives in the meantime in fact maybe this should be part of the official system before the government is allowed to move this past the experimental stage they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption the government is very fond of demonstration projects proving feasibility in the use of government funds for social programs they should have to make a similar feasibility demonstration on economic viability cum acceptance terms for this baby as well let s put it to the only vote that counts a marketplace vote among those who have to pay for it david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	meeting uk cryptoprivacy association begin pgp signed message meeting of the uk cryptoprivacy association saturday may to be held at the offices of forest th floor grosvenor gardens london sw w dh this is located at the corner of hobart place a couple of blocks west of victoria station and almost directly across from the dark green cabbie shelter if you have trouble finding the place please call the office on or call me russell whitaker on my pager and leave an informative message with the telephone number where you can be reached i will return the call almost immediately discussion will range from the usual general topics such as the use of secure public key cryptosystems to protect message data to specific topics such as recent moves by the u s government to restrict choice in data privacy reference recent discussion on usenet groups e g sci crypt and alt security pgp all are invited particularly welcome are members of the newly formed uk community group the local eff in spirit if not in name folks those who plan to attend should email me and let me know please all attendees are requested to bring diskettes preferably ms dos with their pgp public keys as is usual at these gatherings several of us will bring our laptops and will sign public keys subject to the usual caveats reference the documentation for pgp specifically files pgpdoc doc and pgpdoc doc if you do not already have a copy of pgp ms dos and would like to have a copy of this public domain program please bring a formatted medium or high density inch floppy pc diskette you will be provided a copy of the program of course you might prefer to ftp a version of the program from one of the various archive sites i suggest trying demon internet systems which carries the full range of pgp phil zimmerman s pretty good privacy implementations directory pub pgp at gate demon co uk meetings are of indeterminate time those who are interested are invited to join the rest of us at a pseudorandomly determined pub afterwards please note in the past few months interested people have emailed me requesting faqs and special information mailings i regret that except in very unusual cases e g working press i cannot in a timely manner respond to these requests i will however and for the first time do a writeup of this meeting which i will post in various places what i am willing to supply is general information on our activities for the maintainers of existing faqs such as that for alt privacy faq maintainers can contact me at whitaker eternity demon co uk russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal of transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi pgp public key available
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes something similar has happened to me ages ago when we were working on pgp we used to send short messages about development issues or simply to test new features around now at this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin at the site i was using received a request that i stop sending encrypted email now there is almost no way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn t have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types in the message tried to unscramble it found they couldn t get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked me to stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks is the sending of encrypted traffic without government permission legal in new zealand david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed one very interesting thing i notice about this is that the only use of the chip key is to encode the session key for the law enforcement field it is not used at all by the encryption algorithm it seems like it would be possible to create a device that would be otherwise compatible but would send out a bogus law enforcement field this might render the device unusable with normal devices if there s some sort of validation involving the law enforcement field but it could certainly be used with other such modified devices of course this is irrelevant if the nsa has a backdoor in the algorithm but it does make it possible to defeat the key escrow system wilt thou seal up avenues of ill pay every tom weinstein debt as though god wrote the bill emmerson tomw orac esd sgi com
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn t that much stuff coming out of columbus compuserve is in columbus oh so are the corporate headquarters of several major insurance companies the largest private r d company in the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one of the three largest us universities oclc the online college library center and so on you d be amazed actually columbus only looks like a cow town amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	summary responses research on oracle password security my original post was i am building an oracle v database to serve as a repository for information which is considered proprietary or confidential as such i want to verify the security of oracle passwords and apply some of the same security checking techniques we use on our nix systems specifically i would like to use crack or something like it to check the encrypted data for easily guessed passwords the use of crack would depend on oracle using the unix password encryption scheme does anyone know if this is the case or what method is used any other methods for security checking audit in the oracle environment would be much appreciated this article will just scratch the surface of a few security considerations comments are requested email fw world std com my thanks to the people who responded both on usenet and from oracle corp the most common response was to suggest use of oracle audit features or ops passwords to control access opinion on ops included suggestions to use and not use i was also advised to use table views to refine the granularity of access control one important security consideration in networked installations is that ops accounts presume that the client host provides user authentication os server ops users are only as secure as the least secure machine on the network hence you should probably not define any ops accounts on systems with pc s or limit access of ops accounts to data with no security concerns unix oracle servers provide for disabling ops access over the network orasrv option while relying on host security for local processes internally oracle provides powerful and well documented sic audit mechanisms which the dba will use to monitor system and data access these tools can be used to track the primary security risks from within the oracle environment oracle password security is based on a proprietary usage of des encryption oracle corp states that the algorithm is not prone to cleartext attack this is a difficult claim to substantiate since the algorithm is unknown the concern here is that if users choose easily guessed passwords if a cracker can gain access to your oracle database files through the host operating system s he could extract the cyphertext password data and apply cryptanalysis techniques to learn the users passwords as security risks go the above scenario is pretty low severity certainly once an intruder has access to the raw database files s he can access to the data in them if a cracker could break the passwords however s he could do substantial damage without alerting the auditing mechanism s and leaving and audit trail which would point to valid users at present oracle like unix provides no native means of ensuring that passwords are not guessable as with all computer security the most important defense is to educate users in the safe choice of passwords these techniques are well discussed in internet rfc and the crack manual both available from ftp archive servers and unix r system security curry david a addison welsey forrest whitcher fw world std com boston scientific corp watertown ma
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common not when your talking about cryptography there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple think again you won t see me using apple s new signature from the finder feature because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever this analogy fails in its assumption that the government gives two squirts about credibility in addition apple s proclaimed purpose in releasing the macintosh wasn t survellience quite the opposite on january apple will introduce macintosh and you ll see why won t be like so don t give me any bullshit analogies about how we trust coke not to put mind control drugs in every can to get us to buy more in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them it s a lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life one of the reasons we should be all the more suspicious when was the last time the president wasted his time to comfort americans just another reason to look closely at exactally what s going on david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	what would happen if export restrictions violated ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article mjs apr behemoth genetics wisc edu mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu mike schmelzer writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon mr sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling history lesson detailing deleted nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary pat myrto says if law enforcement wants keys let them get a court order and then ask him for them most use of probably cause wiretapping warrants isn t to decrypt historical traffic but for prospective listening once probably cause is established pat s approach would tip off the crooks david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	a parable scottmi microsoft com scott miller techcom writes stikes me that all this concern over the government s ability to eavesdrop is a little overblown what can t they do today my understanding is that they already can tap listen get access exc to our phone lines bank records etc etc again well they can t listen in on much of mine since i already use cryptography for much of my electronic mail and will start using it for my telephony as soon as practical however allow me to tell a parable there was once a far away land called ruritania and in ruritania there was a strange phenonmenon all the trees that grew in ruritainia were transparent now in the days when people had lived in mud huts this had not been a problem but now high tech wood technology had been developed and in the new age of wood everyone in ruritania found that their homes were all see through now until this point no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on someone s home but the new technology made this tempting this being a civilized country however warrants were required to use binoculars and watch someone in their home the police taking advantage of this would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going on occassionally they would use binoculars without a warrant but everyone pretended that this didn t happen one day a smart man invented paint and if you painted your house suddenly the police couldn t watch all your actions at will things would go back to the way they were in the old age completely private indignant the state decided to try to require that all homes have video cameras installed in every nook and cranny after all they said with this new development crime could run rampant installing video cameras doesn t mean that the police get any new capability they are just keeping the old one a wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the lives of the police easy that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will and that ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted for instance in a neighboring country it had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to solve crimes ruritania had banned this practice in spite of its expedience indeed why have warrants at all he asked if we are interested only in expedience a famous paint technologist dorothy quisling intervened however she noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating should the new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards and the law was passed soon it was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths while speaking to each other thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras this had to be prevented the police said after all it was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveilance the wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed to listen in on people s homes but dorothy quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and mutilation of children no one in the legislature wanted to be accused of being in favor of mutilating children but then again no one wanted to interfere in people s rights to wear what they liked so a compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with microphones in each room to accompany the video cameras the wise man lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solved by the old lip reading technology but it was too late the microphones were installed everwhere however it was discovered that this was insufficient to prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities because some of them would cleverly speak in languages that the police could not understand a new law was proposed to force all citizens to speak at all times only in ruritanian and for good measure to require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones after all dorothy quisling pointed out they might be using the opportunity to speak in private to mask terrorist activities terrorism struck terror into everyone s hearts and they rejoiced at the brulliance of this new law meanwhile the wise man talked one evening to his friends on how all of this was making a sham of the constitution of ruritania of which all ruritanians were proud why he asked are we obligated to sacrifice all our freedom and privacy to make the lives of the police easier there isn t any real evidence that this makes any big dent in crime anyway all it does is make our privacy forfeit to the state however the wise man made the mistake of saying this as the law required in ruritanian clearly and distinctly and near a microphone soon the newly formed ruritanian secret police arrived and took him off and got him to confess by torturing him torture was after all far more efficient than the old methods and had been recently instituted to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes which dorothy quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age of plenty and joy perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm arthur melnick posts an interesting first hand message about his nea algorithm though i have no reason to disbelieve anything he says i want to clarify one point he says he has no connection with the nsa if he was part of an nsa plot of course he d say that now i don t think he is but the level of some discussion here is of that sort and very quickly we reach the point where it s impossible to continue rationally discussing some issues i am not a crook well if you were of course you d say that or the ever popular favorite please prove the following negative i don t know what to do with such messages so i have taken to ignoring them comments david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary for some reason my fingers want to type probably cause whenever i want to say probable cause sorry for any confusion in the previous message david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes so don t give me any bullshit analogies about how we trust coke not to put mind control drugs in every can to get us to buy more shhh coke drinkers haven t found out about phosphoric acid yet david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article strnlghtc wkrt ja netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license others will correct me if this is inaccurate glad to you are correct it is illegal to send cryptographic code and lots of other things out of the country without a license however every us citizen has a general export license allowing export of lots of things including constitutionally protected speech this has the effect that it is legal for us citizens to export some things which it is illegal for a us corporation to export without first obtaining a license dunno if you d get one for the particular code you have the only way to find out is to apply for a license nope talk to a good lawyer in the area of export law but in general the government has to have a very good national security case to try prevent the export of anything you personally might wish to publish yes i worded that the way i did intentionally it is a lot easier for the government to try to prevent the export of information than to charge someone with a crime after the fact espionage is probably the only exception note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such a license and what is legal to send if you don t if you are a us citizen you have a general license i am not a lawyer so take some of this with a grain of salt however i have also had to swim through both itar and export regs in a few cases robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	crypto file system reference a while ago there was a reference to a paper on a crypto file system cfs given by someone at at at t how can i get a copy is it available on the net was it published who was the author thanks peter reilley pvr wiis wang com ka lat well that about says it
sci.crypt	re sorry folks read this in article c w qw pb acsu buffalo edu mckee cs buffalo edu douglas mckee writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught well isn t this just a hoot all i read on this group is a bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt this just happens to be a case of an ordinary joe netter who decided that he would create and or distribute some misinformation ppl buy into bs posts like this i know because i forwarded a copy of the post to my office mate who turned around and was although he won t admit it sorry joe ready to get in a fight about f o r f e i t u r e please if we re going to hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems to high standards then mustn t we follow these too electronic freedoms only go so far again i m extremely sorry about this i got this message several months ago quite a bit before the clipper chip proposal when it was posted to a different newsgroup it was very startling to me as well and i guess i should of verified the source at least to some extent before reposting aaack marc
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes well i m not a lawyer but from what i can tell this is completely and utterly untrue the u s does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as a government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip i can t see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper oh what about the precedent in which nuclear weapons information was published in the progressive i was under the impression that the court held that prior restraint could not be used any lawyers out there perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	is this overreaction jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes as one of the happily sleeping people i would just like to ask this aren t people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us we would like to keep it that way thats the point by reacting strongly and forcefully now we will assure that we continue to remain free you cannot overreact to a threat like this the worst that happens if we overreact is that we waste time and effort the worst that happens if we underreact is tyranny i prefer overreaction myself guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at doesn t that tell you how precious and hard to maintain freedom is only through centuries of overreaction have we managed to maintain ourselves in this state of even moderate freedom i suggest that overreacting now and in the future is a good thing perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	how to make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad i ve got an idea that would remove most of the political complaints i have about the clipper chip pass a law stating that if within a year of performaing a wiretap on someone a police agency hasn t managed to convict the suspect of the crime the warrant wiretap was for then that agency owes the suspect million to repay him her for lost privacy of course there are still problems with the technical aspects of clipper and with the one size fits all mentality that would be behind an attempt to enforce it as a standard but this would be a way for those in favor of allowing continued wiretaps to assure us that it will only be used in cases where the crime is important and the police are all but certain that there really will be a conviction john kj elsey
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may be imperfect it is a long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted again we have the trust in government problem here members of mr sternlight s generation trust the government to a degree which members of my generation find ridiculous i would suggest that mr sternlight read about the cointelpro program or about j edgar hoover or about the wire tapping of martin luther king then after he has digested this information he can ponder the fact that while the government does not tap every conversation that they have a record of tapping many conversations that they have no right to even under their own laws given the long history of members of the us government ignoring the laws that apply to them it is no wonder that so many people in here sound so paranoid and given the fact that it is often difficult or impossible to punish these individuals once they are discovered it is no wonder that so many people in here have so little faith in the escrow proposal for clipper jamie jamison
sci.crypt	pseudocollisions in md following is a short note commenting on den boer and bosselaers recent work on the md message digest algorithm feel free to email questions or further comments burt kaliski rsa laboratories documentstyle pt article begin document title on pseudocollisions in the md message digest algorithm author burton s kaliski jr tt burt rsa com and matthew j b robshaw tt matt rsa com and rsa laboratories marine parkway redwood city ca date april maketitle a message digest algorithm maps a message of arbitrary length to a digest of fixed length and has three properties computing the digest is easy finding a message with a given digest inversion is hard and finding two messages with the same digest collision is also hard message digest algorithms have many applications including digital signatures and message authentication rsa data security s md message digest algorithm developed by ron rivest cite rfc md maps a message to a bit message digest computing the digest of a one megabyte message takes as little as a second while no message digest algorithm can yet be em proved secure md is believed to be at least as good as any other that maps to a bit digest inversion should take about operations and collision should take about operations no one has found a faster approach to inversion or collision recent work by den boer and bosselaers cite den boer md presents a special kind of pseudocollision in md s internal compression function which maps a bit message block x and a bit input state s to a bit output state they show how to find a message block x and two related input states s and s that yield the same output state f x s f x s their well thought approach exploits structural properties of the collision function to find a pseudocollision in about operations much less than one would expect practical implications of this pseudocollision work to the security of md are not evident while a real collision in md implies a pseudocollision or a pseudo inversion a pseudocollision need not imply a real collision indeed a real collision since it involves two different messages would almost always involve em different message blocks x and x such that f x s f x s but the pseudocollisions have the same message blocks moreover the input states s and s would generally be unrelated but the pseudocollisions input states are the same except for four bits there does not seem to be any way to extend den boer and bosselaers approach to anything beyond the special pseudocollisions a limitation they readily admit it is reasonable therefore to believe that md remains secure while den boer and bosselaers have found interesting structural properties in md the properties seem only to lead to special pseudocollisions and not anything approaching real collisions further research of course will give a better understanding of the strengths of md and other message digest algorithms with the eventual hope that such algorithms can in some sense be proved secure bibliographystyle plain begin thebibliography bibitem den boer md bert den boer and antoon bosselaers newblock collisions for the compression function of md newblock in it advances in cryptology eurocrypt newblock preprint bibitem rfc md r l rivest newblock it rfc the md message digest algorithm newblock internet activities board april end thebibliography end document
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article strnlghtc ybka dp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight brings up the issue of how the escrow agent will be paid and the fact that the government had financial leverage if they don t cooperate it s an important issue especially if one of the escrow agents decides they d rather stop offering the service i assume that if the escrow agent isn t the government then the contract for providing escrow service would include some termination clause like returning the keys the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government but who s the user paying the fees here and what s the service if the user is the government then the funding s not separate from the government if the user is the buyer what s the service keeping the key for me no thanks i don t need and won t buy their service not telling everybody my key sounds like blackmail if the user is the manufacturer does the user have a choice about buying the alternative is to just generate the key and not escrow it which is fine i d certainly pay more for this kind of key than an escrowed key face it the escrow provider is providing a service the users don t want the only people who want it are the government not the users what you re really talking about is either the government paying for the service up front or per year either from general taxes or from a special direct tax on wiretap chips or on an indirect tax forcing the manufacturer to pay the fee to the escrow agent i hope the escrow people have no way of finding out your name from your serial number especially if the escrow is a government agency here in new jersey we have lots of people willing to provide that sort of services for user fees there are people willing to keep your store from burning down for a small monthly fee though sometimes people refuse to pay and discover that the service really was effective if you go to a baseball game at yankee stadium there are people who will watch your car in the parking lot for a small user fee something could scratch the paint after all and what a shame if your clipper key got out pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re how to make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad what is the reason for the push on clipper two days after the lead story here in the mercury times murky news there was another article on industrial espionage by the french someone had said what can it hurt to allow the government to have continued access to our communications they already have it the problem is that yes the do have access and probably more than we realize the government wants exclusive access to communications intercept here in the united states cutting out other access detrimental to the national security tm i also doubt that a certain letter agency that originated the encryption algorithm and the chip designs needs to have anything to do with the escrow system to continue their intercept effort better yet who owns the company doing the programming
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway first of all it s not the thought police it s the export police if you move overseas with your great thoughts in your head write the software there and then sell it the us thought police probably can t do too much about it though you might want to check with your lawyer first however if you write the program here and sell it to furriners you are now an international arms dealer and can get thrown in the clink for many years especially if they decide you d be a good example and cuban drug dealers and fanatic middle eastern terrorists buy your stuff definitions of public domain are different for itar purposes so if you ve got a good enough lawyer who ll do your case for free after they ve confiscated everything you own as evidence you might win but nobody wants to go first since the stakes are quite high pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes we are strongly opposed to the clipper capstone chips in a press release today our president dr stephen bryen stated it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public but do we not understand how the national security agency which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u s government domestic spying activities well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it this sounds a lot like slamming the competition not a cry for justice these guys are way out on a limb if i read that right they ve commited their new algorithm to silicon before it s been made public what are they gonna do if shamir writes a paper showing how to crack the entire class of algorithms in minutes with a slide rule and a pencil if they weren t busy throwing muck to smear their competitors i d feel kinda sorry for em still do a little andrew
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes i must protest your in a communist country how do you know there haven t been any and are unlikely to ever be any in some socialist dictatorships you can t whilst in some socialist democracies such as france or australia you can of course some people may disagree about france australia being socialist it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at in some circumstances i was at a public meeting last night in the usa where a protester who was very nice and calm and just said before the speaker started to beware of his opinions was forced out of the meeting by two armed policemen there are a lot of things that one cannot do in the usa you may not notice them but as an australian visitor i notice them of course don t over react but don t under react thank you andrew not only for the firm rebuttal but for understanding the difference between communism and socialism even though this is off topic why do people just not understand that just because all those pretty songs about the land of the free and so on sound nice that they may not be true take off those rose colored glasses and get a clue to use two of the better cliches around thanks you again jamie
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article tcmayc rs n lz netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of since the fbi s account of what happened is being contradicted on an increasingly frequent basis by other officials investigating the fire the most pernicious idea of all is believing that big brother is going to be well behaved with respect to cryptographic keys in light of the very serious allegations with respect to the doj selling software to various other intelligence services what do you suppose the chances are of some future doj selling escrowed keys to business firms trusting the government to be honest and fair is putting the fox in charge of protecting the chickens clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling didn t nsa think about this or is it a feature and they thought we wouldn t notice i would have thought that by now they would have responded with something of the form well that won t be a problem because very curious lynn grant
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article r vouinn tv shelley u washington edu niteowl stein u washington edu jamie jamison writes again we have the trust in government problem here members of mr sternlight s generation trust the government to a degree which members of my generation find ridiculous i would suggest that mr sternlight read about the cointelpro program or about j edgar hoover or about you should read the history it was hoover who stopped nixon s cointelpro dead in its tracks because he said it was unconstitutional they tried to get around him every way they could despite other things he may have done for this alone hoover saved the constitution david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped please restrict your followups however valuable this discussion does not belong on comp org acm or on comp org ieee please edit your followups to include only the appropriate newsgroups edward reid greensboro fl ed titipu resun com or nosc blkhole ed looking for programming contracts especially unisys a series
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re crypto papers on the net in article bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq on a related topic can anyone point me toward good sites to find papers articles discussions of cryptology i think i ve about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn t seem to have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey khufu and khafre are both patented biham and shamir showed that differential cryptanalysis can break round khafre with a chosen plaintext attack using different encryptions khafre with rounds can be broken with the same attack using different encryptions there are probably more efficient differential cryptanalytic attacks if someone wants to take the time to look khufu has key dependent s boxes and is immune to differential cryptanalysis source code for this algorithm and khafre are in the patent snefru is a public domain one way hash function the version of snefru that produces a bit hash is vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis vulnerable means that the attack is more efficient that brute force for four passes or less given that sha and md are much more efficient oh yes anyone interested in licensing the patent should contact dave petre director of patent licencing for xerox bruce
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys alt security clipper added to keep them informed of this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yes but will they buy you a ticket on a time machine to allow you to go back and use the phone with the new key instead of the phone whose key they obtained it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge so the loss of a key whether one is guilty or innocent may mean a lot more than merely replacing the phone sort of like saying to someone oh i copied your diary but i ll buy you a new one and the system if made mandatory as i expect will make such storing of conversations much easier i fear for one thing the transmission of the escrow key field acts as a clear signal to anyone listening a kind of caller id and callee id on a grand scale also the phone companies may not care as much about protecting the privacy of the calls as they perceive them all to be useless encrypted junk this is a bit of a reach i know suggesting that the clipper will make security more lax anyway still lots of issues unresolved tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re is this overreaction perry e metzger pmetzger snark shearson com wrote we would like to keep it that way thats the point by reacting strongly and forcefully now we will assure that we continue to remain free you cannot overreact to a threat like this the worst that happens if we overreact is that we waste time and effort the worst that happens if we underreact is tyranny i prefer overreaction myself only through centuries of overreaction have we managed to maintain ourselves in this state of even moderate freedom i suggest that overreacting now and in the future is a good thing perry is right on target here careful analysis of the clipper chip announcement reveals that is not likely to remain voluntary for very long the cost of the system the cost of generating and then storing the escrow keys and the admitted security holes pretty much make the clipperphone a loser strong crypto will outcompete it if strong crypto is allowed this is the battle we face we had rumblings of this totalitarian key registration thing a while back and now the other shoe has dropped the firestorm of commentary and criticism this time around reveals the almost immediate revulsion this wiretap chip and automatic caller id and callee id don t forget generates in everyone or almost everyone who hears about it this is a battle we can t afford to lose tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow this necessity raises the stakes in favor of a criminal s coercing or colluding use of some other person s clipper phone i will restate my assumptions more explicitly and amplify my argument the original title perhaps should have been distinction between legal and illegal cipher systems considered harmful but clipper considered harmful is not inaccurate and is more eye catching in the current context assumptions clipper is made available laws are passed to make use of cipher systems other than clipper illegal either on radio systems or on any common carrier system these laws also include enforcement authority to listen across the relevant radio spectrum or other medium characterize signals validate clipper wrappers detect probable use of non clipper ciphers and make such detection a cause for further action for escrowed keys to be useful some specific clipper chip must be associated with a suspected criminal this means that at a minimum some association between the common carrier s unique phone id esn and the clipper chip serial number n will be stored in a government database an observed pairing of n and esn other than the one recorded raises a red flag to reduce ordinary fraud the cellphone system which offers clipper will also be constructed with an esn mechanism much more tamper proof and much less spoofable than today s cellphones criminals want inscrutable communications some criminals are not entirely stupid or ignorant and will figure out both that clipper cellphones offer excellent security in normal circumstances and that they offer no security against law enforcement once a presumably legitimate wiretap order exists they will also figure out that the wiretap order must necessarily be against a specific cellphone because each one has a unique unit key criminals do not want to call attention to themselves because they are not stupid or ignorant or because they read netnews and because they know that their open use of a non clipper cipher is likely to be detected they will generally avoid using non clipper ciphers directly on some monitorable tappable channel they know that do so would raise a red flag putting a given cellphone if not a given person under immediate suspicion it is impractical to reverse engineer skipjack discover family key f and construct a functional clone of a clipper chip by and it will be very difficult to spoof a given clipper phone without immediate detection because it is difficult to obscure one s association to a specific phone by reprogramming or changing chips around the criminal will be motivated to find an intact phone which is associated with someone else a non stupid criminal will conclude that they can have clipper secure communications at least for some limited time t if they buy beg borrow or steal use of someone s phone in a way that prevents that person from reporting compromise of the phone for at least time t the encrypted communications might have been recorded and thus be retrievable later but the criminal can delay and quite likely evade discovery by destroying or abandoning the phone before t elapses it would be unusual for an innocent person to volunteer use of their clipper phone to someone else the honest subscriber doesn t want to pay someone else s bill and he doesn t want to fall under suspicion this leaves two sources of clipper phones for criminal use coercion and collusion coercion first theft bears a relatively low risk but also sometimes a low time until detection a few minutes if a phone is stolen from a car parked in front of a store a couple of weeks if a phone is stolen from someone who is away on vacation criminal commerce is likely to arise in stolen clipper phones with phones coming from risk inured poor criminals and cash coming from risk averse wealthy criminals someone who is extraordinarily motivated to gain a day or two of undetected communication like a terrorist could kill a person or hold them hostage the limited time before detection that a coerced phone is useful means that continuing criminal enterprises require a continuing supply of freshly coerced phones there would also be created a collusive commerce between relatively wealthy criminals and ignorant or don t care patsies who need money and who will submit to being paid in return for subscribing to clipper phone service for someone else s use criminals will learn that it is more to their advantage to coerce use of a clipper cellphone than it is to apply a non clipper cipher to a normal cellphone they will call much less attention to themselves or at least to their stolen phone this way the fact of a phone s use being coerced must first be reported before it can be identified as an interesting phone and have its keys obtained from escrow clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order whereas a criminal s use of any cipher within a normally cleartext medium would stand out a criminal s use of a non clipper cipher within a clipper medium would be very difficult to detect even ex post facto in bulk recordings as long as the association between criminal and specific clipper chip is fractured if you make use of this other cipher illegal per se then you can charge the criminal with this if you can identify the true criminal he ll be using someone else s phone but you ll have no evidence to help you against whatever traditional crime he might have been planning you will not even be able to detect that unusual encrypted communications are occurring until you identify specific phones and obtain their keys from escrow the gangster and terrorist are thus arguably more not less secure than they were before clipper came along i therefore consider clipper harmful because it does not provide absolute privacy to the honest public against aggressive or dishonest government if other ciphers are proscribed it engenders new types of direct criminal threat to the honest public it provides an extraordinarily effective mechanism for criminals to hide their use of some other cipher making it more difficult than ever even to gain notice that unusual communications are occurring and that plans for some criminal act might be in progress if other ciphers are proscribed lazy investigators and prosecutors are more likely to pursue the easily quantifiable cipher use crime than they are the traditional and directly harmful crimes which key escrow is claimed to help against if other ciphers are proscribed the stage is set for witch hunting of illegal cipher use because any computer can be used as a cipher machine brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca
sci.crypt	clipper serial numbers need nd court order something that no one has discussed yet or i missed it the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n and since a warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets it what if multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for n n etc exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number x was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x either a second court order for the specific serial key is required and i have seen no indication of this or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time so the escrow key holders are a total fake an unrelated issue if and when all phones always use the clipper chip how are call transfers going to take place michael golan mg cs princeton edu
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details on the contrary the entire clipper proposal is an example of the government servicing the people in the sense of the term found in the sentence the farmer paid to rent a bull to service his cows
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks i ve got a better idea we give one set to the kgb c o washington embassy and the other set to the red chinese g
sci.crypt	re clipper chip and crypto key esc in article apr memex co uk peter memex co uk writes i thought it was quite difficult to record a modem session at some intermediate point on the line maybe they have taken a crash course in data comms and have a unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later this would still suffer from the called babt it has been stated either here or in the uk telecom group that they will not approve equipment that does encryption i don t know if this is true or not but this would make a good test case peter ilieve peter memex co uk you forget the obvious if it is an authorised tap then it can be done at the exchange if the exchange is digital then i suspect that you can auto monitor a line and pickup the full link therefore syncing a piggyback modem on the line would not be impossible i suspect mike h mike avon demon co uk
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more i don t think mr clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme so his assurances are of no value at al if he gives them he just says what a panel of experts told him if i lived in the usa i would hope those experts were not paid by the fill here you favorite letter combination the doctrine of plausible deniability no one is going to tell him it has a back door the nsa will assume he has the sense to work it out for himself or they wouldn t be pushing it clinton might even believe the nsa when they tell him for the record it doesn t have a back door and no foia request in the world will ever find it these guys don t play by that set of rules they have their own rule book and no you re not allowed to see that either g
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history that s not very good odds i may be misreading you here are you saying the american revolution wasn t a good idea because it was bad odds i kind of doubt that any revolution armed or otherwise was ever started without vast amounts of failed working within a system a good sign of a system being not worth preserving would probably be that very inability to work within it productively hopefully i ve misunderstood btw i m not a big fan of arms myself
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed is the u used in the law enforcement field from the phone which placed the call from the unit whose start secure session button was pressed first or does each phone transmit its own law enforcement field even assuming one of the first two choices the fbi is going to get a fresh n u for its own database about every other phone call eventually accumulating keys for all the phones used to connect to the line they are monitoring not just the suspects key assuming the ever thrifty fbi doesn t forget each key after its wiretap permission has expired not quite a pyramid but not bad either carl ijames ijames helix nih gov more worried every day
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes of course don t over react but don t under react better yet act john john w luther anybody who mistakes my jluther cs umr edu best for email opinions for umr s just compuserve com doesn t know umr
sci.crypt	re the escrow database and the fox has rabies too dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com sig being revised
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today begin pgp signed message in article strnlghtc wkh x netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons david given the proposition of the first first paragraph the conclusion of the second should read thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded legally by the government which completely overturns your argument to not see this requires an unbelievable degree of stupidity or naivete on your part perhaps it s time for you to own up and say which spook agency you work for paul
sci.crypt	re is this overreaction good points in addition i would point out that now is one of the best times to fight this political battle with much of the opposition in disarray an fbi director sessions on his way out an attorney general reno who has only been in long enough to find the office coffee machine two tries out of three and between slow confirmations and clinton s saturday night massacre hasn t much of a staff in place if we really get lucky both of the above will be too busy trying to keep their feet from being held to the waco fire to spend much effort insisting on their alleged right to spy on the american people i swear to you we aren t finished yet james t kirk st iii
sci.crypt	trademark violation claimed forwarded from libernet dartmouth edu date tue apr pdt from ald clipper clipper ingr com al date subject clipper chip not to libernet dartmouth edu clipper tm chip is a registered trademark of intergraph corp the so called clipper chip which was recently mentioned here and in other media with respect to encryption is being used in violation of that trademark the intergraph clipper chip is a unix microprocessor originally developed by fairchild semiconductors and has no relationship to the encryption chip whatsoever i mention this here with the hope that someone reading this will intercede before the group alt privacy clipper is established al date
sci.crypt	re encryption chip availibility in article ofpppcs iuy k mr andrew cmu edu stephen j ludwick sl b andrew cmu edu says hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks steve i believe fisher sp international makers of the watchdog tm pc security package offers a hardware implementation of des as an add on to that package
sci.crypt	jerry berman on pseudonymous privacy hello all i thought you all might like to see this it s a letter from jerry berman to david chaum from november of in response to information that mr chaum sent to mr berman while i have to congratulate eff for its prompt response to the clipper chip announcement from the white house i think it s important to recognize the philosophy of their executive director as explained below i agree that legal remedies are important but when pressed i d prefer to retain the ability to use purely technical solutions to preserve my privacy because they ll hold up under fire mr chaum has consented to the publication of this letter on the net i don t work for nor am i a member of eff aclu or any similar organizations but i do agree with them on a great many things aristophanes american civil liberties union washington office maryland avenue ne november washington dc national headquarters mr david chaum west rd street centre for mathematics and computer science new york ny p o box o ab amsterdam norman dorsen president dear mr chaum ira glasser executive director eleanor holmes norton chair national advisory council thank you for sending me a most interesting article a society of individuals and organizations that would expend the time and resources to use a series of digital pseudonyms to avoid data linkage does not in my opinion make big brother obsolete but acts on the assumption that big brother is ever present i view your system as a form of societal paranoia as a matter of principle we are working to enact formal legal protections for individual privacy rather than relying on technical solutions we want to assume a society of law which respects legal limits rather than a society that will disobey the law requiring citizens to depend on technical solutions e g require a judical warrant for government interception of data communications rather than encrypt all messages on the assumption that regardless of the lawt the government will abuse its power and invade privacy as a matter of practicality i do not think your system offers much hope for privacy first the trend toward universal identifiers is as much a movement generated by government or industry s desire to keep track of all citizens as it is by citizens seeking simplicity and convenience in all transactions at best your system would benefit the sophisticated and most would opt for simplicity the poor and the undereducated would never use or benefit from it finally where there s a will there s a way if government wants to link data bases it will by law require the disclosure of various individual pseudonyms used by citizens or prohibit it for data bases which the government wants to link since corporations make money by trading commercial lists with one another they will never adopt the system or if it is adopted will use fine printn contracts to permit selling various codes used by their customers to other firms the solution remains law policy and consensus about limits on government or corporate intrusion into areas of individual autonomy technique can be used to enforce that consensus or to override it it cannot be used as a substitute for such consensus sincerely yours sig jerry j berman chief legislative counsel direrector aclu privacy technology project cc john shattuck
sci.crypt	information on mathematics of cryptography followup i posted an informational request about any electronically available articles on cryptographic algorithms a couple of days ago as i mentioned i was interested in particular in des and public key but also wouldn t mind learning about others as i said i can read an intro graduate level text book having had some mathematics though not much number theory per se i d like to see the technical details of the mathematics of cryptography as oppossed to the popularizations of things like scientific am which just say then you find a really big prime number following my request several people were so kind as to suggest reading lists which i hope to get around to two other people were so very kind as to send large documents which i presume were actual articles about lines each but i ve stupidly deleted them accidentally before having a chance even to skim them if they can forgive me for my careless use of file commands would the original senders be so kind as to resend or anyone else who has good crypto articles at a fairly technical mathematical level also ftp able or gopher able docs would be nice to know about yours lulu this message was brought to you by postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer surely you don t think that i believe them
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip ag russell arussell austin ibm com wrote at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des then it was either really good luck or you had some very fast machine des has possible keys each two of which are simply to convert into each other so you have to expect trial encryptions in the mean case assuming known plaintext is ca so you must have managed to do encryptions per microsecond ce infosys builds a very fast des chip that manages encryptions per microsecond yes i m not very seriously bothered about the security of des yet though you might prefer to use triple des or idea both of which use more key bits joerg joerg czeranski email czeranski rz tu clausthal de osteroeder strasse smtp injc w clausthal zellerfeld voice at work germany voice at home to obtain pgp public key finger injc sun rz tu clausthal de or email me
sci.crypt	rush limbaugh s address oops from before i think this didn t get posted before i ve been reading usenet for the longest time but never had much interest in posting until recently this is what i typed before i have written mr limbaugh before and i loathe to use the name rush in association with him because he is unworthy to have a name in common with some of the greatest musicians in our time the band rush his address as some of you wanted is compuserve com he has been to wrapped up in himself to respond to me but maybe some of you will have better luck bye g bye for now i tree i a k a andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu g bye for now i tree i a k a andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu
sci.crypt	re jerry berman on pseudonymous privacy nobody alumni cco caltech edu correctly states jerry berman s view on privacy but he mistakenly assumes that this represents berman s view as eff executive director as one of the people who convinced jerry that legal protections for privacy are insufficient and that technical measures especially public key cryptography are also vitally necessary i can tell you that jerry and eff are fully committed to this position the previous poster is apparently unaware of a long series of eff positions in support of this view i suggest those interested read eff s position on clipper or our other work in digital privacy check ftp eff org for more details one of the great things about human beings is that they are capable of change and evolution in their thinking the idea that crypto is critical to privacy is one which is no longer limited to certain net afficianados but is spreading to parts of the public policy community in washington mitch kapor co founder eff
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article bb f c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes the clipper chip s user key is formed by r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s why is the triple encrytion used is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat a potential keysearch if so why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm it s not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s s why are n n and n formed as they are it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way where do the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n n n come from are they changed from chip to chip or session to session even if they re published in the ny times if skipjack is resistant to known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there s no break in security but why allow that kind of weird format if those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe it s used to ensure that a known plaintext attack on skipjack if it exists can t be easily used to derive s and s for a whole production run of these chips i can t answer all our questions in detail but i can take a stab at them the form the operations that compute r r and r is of course the famous triple encryption suggested for use with des it s much stronger than a single encryption and has an effective key length of bits for reasons that were discussed when des was first standardized a simple double encryption would not have the same strength triple encryption has been used by ibm since more or less the beginning to encrypt other keys it s recommended for anything of very high value and i think we can agree that the r i and s i fit that description why n n and n well you need different plaintext values i have no idea if they ll be disclosed or not at a guess they re constructed so that they differ in as many bit positions as possible a goo cryptosystem will scramble things a lot with even a bit change but the values of n in a series will have fairly similar bit patterns and there might conceivably be a weakness so the n i values are and i m guessing chosen to increase the hamming distance in any event i m quite convinced that one cannot go back to the s i from the u i let alone u observe if the nsa has u they don t need to find s i but even if they do they can t get u and u in theory they should never even see those values even with a warrant the real question i think is why use this scheme at all as opposed to a hardware random number generator my answer is that this is much more verifiable look suppose that nsa nist the aclu the eff and the nra combined to build a really good random number generator and that it passed every test you could think of when you come back next week to program some more chips does it still work that well have any components changed in value have the components been changed out from under you does it still work well the in the presence of a focused microwave beam that tends to bias it towards selecting bits yes you can run detailed statistical tests on it again but that s hard consider on the other hand a software solution you bring your own floppies with you you can run cryptographic checksums etc it s a lot easier to verify that the software is unchanged in other words yes i can think of ways to cheat software too i think that they re a lot harder there are three issues with clipper the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working my answer with one significant exception is yes i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be assuming that their real objectives are as stated to permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with a minimum risk of abuse the exception is that u exists outside of the chip on a programming diskette that s seriously wrong u and u should be loaded onto the chip separately to those who disagree and i don t claim my answer is obvious though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper i had originally blasted the scheme i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions do it in the context of the last issue i present below right here i m discussing just the technical aspects and no i don t by any means claim that just because something can be done it should be the second issue is whether or not this whole architecture is actually going to be used just because clipper chips are made this way doesn t mean that that s the only way they ll be made maybe the nsa will substitute its own chips between the programming facility and the shipping dock and they ll generate bogus warrant requests so that the escrow agents don t wonder why they ve never called sorry guys all them terrorists and drug dealers and pedophiles seem to have bought triple des phones instead who d a thunk it i have no answer to this question and at the moment i don t see a way of answering it those concerns are part of my reasoning in my answer to the final question below the third and most serious issue is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law i think that the answer is no but it s not a no brainer i m a civil libertarian not a libertarian for reasons that i explained at great length on the net in the elder days and that i don t have the energy to repeat now but that means that i m willing to accept that some laws are necessary so long as they respect the essential rights of individuals the government already has the ability and in our system the right to issue search warrants and while that power has certainly been abused it s also been used quite properly and fairly in other cases is key escrow sufficiently different i think so but again it s not an easy question for me it is easy for libertarians to answer of course since clipper is completely alien to much of the rest of their oft admirable philosophy and it s also easy for those who give their unreserved trust to government a group i m much more distant from steve bellovin
sci.crypt	re s s in article r ue access digex net steve b access digex com writes the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations iff the phones transmit their serial nos as part of the message then what is to say that each phone can take that serial number and use it to generate the required key
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling didn t nsa think about this or is it a feature and they thought we wouldn t notice i would have thought that by now they would have responded with something of the form well that won t be a problem because don alvarez posted a good partial solution to this problem to comp risks i ll present my variant on it instead since i feel it s a bit stronger against some likely attempts to cheat depends on the protocol that s followed for reading traffic briefly the cops get a wiretap warrant and record the call they then notice the encryption and the disclosure header it along with a copy of their warrant is sent to the fbi or whoever it is who holds the family key the f holder decrypts the header and sends the serial number n and the encrypted session key u k to the escrow agents they in turn use u and u to recover k and send that to the local police note how this solves the problem of wiretapping forever neither the cops nor the fbi ever see u so they can t read other traffic every request must be validated by both the fbi and the escrow agents the cops and the fbi together can t cheat since they don t have u i regard that as a likely pairing of folks who might try to beat the system it s to prevent this that i modified alvarez s scheme the escrow agents can t read the conversation since they don t have it all they have is n and u k and the police don t even see n it s harder to see how to block decryption of old warrantless wiretaps there is one protection you have to persuade the escrow agents that the call is current but that s not nearly as strong there are approaches i can see that might work involving sequences of data on an unalterable medium complete with cryptographic protection against insertion onto a new medium but i don t have anything yet that isn t too complex for comfort or too hard to install in the real world the nsa might have an answer they may or may not be smarter than me but i ve been working on this for a week and they ve had years
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad yearwood posts a long response to the issue of registering a phone clipper relationship it doesn t wash recall that law enforcement gets a court order to tap a suspect s phone calls they do what they do now figure out which lines to tap they then record the stuff if it s clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order no new difficulties such as using someone else s phone instrument or phone line are introduced that wouldn t have existed absent clipper if the crooks were going to use a pay phone say they could have done so without clipper if the government figures out they re so doing they listen in and if it s a clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article rae b j access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	back doors in clipper i think it very unlikely there are back doors in clipper for two reasons the government doesn t need them if it can get the key and yes i assume that the official government obeys court orders etc and that the design of the chip and its approval were official it would defeat the whole purpose of providing secure crypto for american business that couldn t be read by our economic adversaries if this were not a legitimate and genuine purpose and as many think the nsa can read des why bother otherwise rational responses preferred to conspiracy theories thanks david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper serial numbers need nd court order in article apr princeton edu mg cs princeton edu michael golan writes something that no one has discussed yet or i missed it the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n and since a warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets it what if multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for n n etc exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number x was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x either a second court order for the specific serial key is required and i have seen no indication of this or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time so the escrow key holders are a total fake two safeguards the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies and associate it with a particular court order if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered putting it another way this question is not very different from the pre clipper question what s to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article tcmayc z ye f netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes alt security clipper added to keep them informed of this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yes but will they buy you a ticket on a time machine to allow you to go back and use the phone with the new key instead of the phone whose key they obtained it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge doesn t matter if we assume they are obeying the law since they won t have had a court order to tap calls prior to the date of the court order and thus won t have them available if they aren t obeying the law we are in an entirely different discussion in which this is the least of one s worries david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling it was implied in the first technical posting by dorothy denning that the fbi would do the decryption for the law enforcement agencies it wasn t clear to me from the post whether this would be done in realtime or not or whether the fbi would just decrypt the session keys for the locals or would do the whole message one thing i m a bit puzzled by why aren t they doing this with a public key scheme of some sort you could generate two uniqe public private pairsor for each chip then escrow the private keys with the escrow agencies set the protocol up to encrypt the session key with both public keys to decrypt a message both escrow agencies in the right order for most pk schemes have to decrypt with the escrowed private key this way there wouldn t be thecconcern that once the police had asked fo a warrant wiretap they would have your key forver john kelsey
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway i m not sure it has been established that the government can prevent you from sending an algorithm abroad the nsa seems to have won by intimidation so far why don t you try it of course you could just distribute your algorithm widely for free and screw them up big time that would be my approach smg
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this that was probably me i meant only that nobody has overreacted yet it seemed to me that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and i vehemently disagree i see a lot of talk but not much action i see now that i misunderstood jerry s position the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they ll just bitch on the net for a while and then go back to lurking can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history actually it s not quite that bad but it s close i think everyone would just as soon work within the system the presence of the possibility of using the bullet box instead of the ballot box is supposed to be a deterrent by keeping the price of massive abuse unacceptable however governments being what they are sure would like to remove that deterrence which will make the need for armed citizens all the more great you don t need em till you don t have em then i think we can be more accurately called subjects instead of citizens the idea of the people being sovereign over the government is sure not in vogue in the beltway these days that is for sure the administration is saying we know best we will tell you what you need or don t need after that old fashioned anachronism called the bill of rights is not needed in these enlightened times look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we not if the government has its way there are eight bills before congress that will either ban tax exhorbitantly or register all useful weapons in the hands of the unconnected us subject can you say just for a box of cartridges for practice one of the current administrations top priority items is to disarm all who are not well connected or that work for the government clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage another tactic is to toss out so many outrages at once that nobody can give justice to them all like is being done right now lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful steve bellovin writes a well thought out and nearly persuasive article about why the clipper are we still calling it clipper today or have they figured out a non infringing word yet protocol is almost as good as one can do given their marching ordes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary i ll accept the second assumption only for the sake of argument in my view the primary remaining flaw is that the encryption algorithm is secret leading to suspicion that there is a back door without complete disclosure this suspicion cannot be dispelled no matter how many trusted experts are allowed to look at it in isolation is it possible to do this whole thing with a public algorithm the only concern i ve seen with making skipjack public is that someone could build clipperphones without registering the keys assume f can really be kept secret as the government assumes then as part of the initial connection a clipperphone executes a protocol with the pseudophone to demonstrate that they both know f for example the initiating phone picks a number q and sends e q f the receiver sends back e q f and the initiator sends back e q f to demonstrate that her first packet wasn t just a random bit block repeat in the opposite direction with another q so it can t be defeated by somebody building up a library of sequential numbers by remembering responses and using those responses as the initial numbers of subsequent challenges this way clipperphones will talk only to other clipperphones of course the pseudo company can build their own proprietary skipjack phone but the presidential fact sheet implies that they won t get approval for it without equivalent key escrow what s wrong with this picture it depends of f staying secret and on skipjack being resistant to cryptanalysis but the government appears to believe in both of these even if the particular q a i suggest has some flaw i imagine there s a zero knowledge proof protocol that doesn t smb says the third and most serious issue is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law agreed my view and you can quote me if it s not worth doing it s not worth doing well jim gillogly hevensday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	how to escrow if escrowing were ok there is a description of something called a fair crypto system in the may issue of byte p attributed to mit professor silvio micali the way it works is as follows you generate your private key s and break it up into pieces s s s s and s such that s s s mod p s you give each piece s s etc to a different escrow agency the agencies each compute g sn mod p and forward the result to the public key telephone book keeper the public key telephone book keeper multiplies all the g sn mod p reduces the result to mod p and this will be the user s public key now if there were several hundered recognized escrow agencies and the user could give a piece of the key to each of the ones he trusted the result would be something of an improvement over the proposed clipper system i still don t think key escrow is a good idea for both philosophical and security reasons but i do offer this suggestion simply to determine whether escrow advocates are at all interested in considering alternatives in good faith or whether the goal is to insure the use of only two agencies selected for spinelessness in the face of official requests
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business so you admit that clipper opens the doors wide for the following scenario feds we need the keys to joe blow s phone escrow agent joe blow you have a warrant to tap his line feds well no but we have a warrant to tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that mr gonzales is using mr blow s phone escrow agent well ok
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens don t tell me tell the feds they not i need to get a clue about this
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed yeah but who wants to start a pool on the first person arrested mistakenly and has their life turned upside down because some law enforcement agency does make a chip person association i wonder if there are any plans to keep these records e g encode the serial number into the upc scanned at k mart along with the credit card info voila at least your phone number tends to only locate to your house or whatever i e to be coming from your telephone number the person likely is in your house etc plus or minus some shenanigans of course but i d hate to think of these guys getting the clipper id recording the conversation then doing a quick cross lookup and your name comes up as owner of that id mistakenly maybe you sold the phone at a garage sale or the phone was stolen from your car or whatever they might only know who one side of the conversation is for example anyone who thinks the govt is forbidden by law to cross correlate such databases loses two points first law enforcement agencies can of course do this second they re only forbidden from budgeting any money for it the irs for example does do this anyhow they just don t spend any money on it so it s technically legal i guess instead they probably trade little favors with companies like mastercard if you re the irs i ll bet you have a lot of opportunities to trade favors with major corps for their databases i know an irs guy read an amazing list off to me from his screen i could hear him typing to pull up each screen once on the phone during a dispute i had with them to intimidate me actually not much of a dispute i didn t particularly disagree but for some reason this fellow wanted to play tough guy with me i hope he s better now amazing stuff he had at his finger tips be afraid barry shein software tool die bzs world std com uunet world bzs purveyors to the trade voice login wrld
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed celular phones jon
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article tcmayc z ye f netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge it is completely clear you have to assume that each byte that was encrypted by this clipper chip has been compromised some people wondered why denning hellman and others did not respond when asked what would be done about such compromised phones or if compromise could not be restricted in time i did too let us just assume that a they do not know and b those who know don t tell and c they do not care it seem s to be an other person s problem gec instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes how fast do the fastest modems go the shannon limit for voice lines is likely somewhere around kbps we are rapidly approaching it the fastest affordable full duplex modems currently on the market are v bis which is bps how far can voice be compressed celp manages to sound decent at bps in theory if you built a speech recognition system that turned voice into ascii and a perfect synthesis system on the other end that sounded just like the person you were speaking to you could get it down to the information content of the speech with various kinds of lpc you can get it down to bps or prehaps even less at which point it sounds horrible bps is more than adequite for our purposes perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article c x xs ef lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed how can you be sure the two visitors were really government agents john john flanagan i believe in my theories johnf uhheph phys hawaii edu they give me a feeling of u of hawaii dept of physics astro security and they inflate correa rd honolulu hi my ego enormously a abian
sci.crypt	re tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls
sci.crypt	wanted riverbank pub no i m looking for a copy of friedman s riverbank publication no methods for the solution of running key ciphers agean park press tells me that their publication c the riverbank publications volume is out of print can anyone snail mail me a photocopy of no if someone could it would be much appreciated regards john king kingj corp hp com
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc t d jn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear i believe the u s does without a license the above scheme won t work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the u s david bzzt wrong the us does not have crypto import laws derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com sci crypt alt security comp org ieee strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever david neither or apply with the government though the feds unlike apple have repeatedly demonstrated that trust is an unsafe thread on which to hang your freedom why because unlike apple in the govt has no credibility to lose i m serious about this one can name just about any agency the irs rtc fcc faa fbi nsa cia and find numerous examples of the public trust run roughshod over worse one can rarely find in such examples any serious consequences to the offending agency even supposing we could get a reign on trust somehow there s always the matter of competence in govt agencies can they even trust themselves mel p s i was amused when you mentioned the usda as an example of an agency capable of managing the an escrow i m a consultant to the usda and while those i work with are wonderful grin the agency itself is ranked in industry publications such as govt computer news as one of the worst caretakers of its computer resources recently prime time live did a long segment on the usda s computer troubles they are making a concerted effort to change but intentions don t make a track record mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative in article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren t yet chosen how can you say they have a history of untrustworthy behavoir sic i m sure each of us can think of agencies without such a history price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years even in damn you re dead right that pretty much settles it not to worry john hesse a man jhesse netcom com a plan moss beach calif a canal bob
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article rcboi j a access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes feds we need the keys to joe blow s phone escrow agent joe blow you have a warrant to tap his line feds well no but we have a warrant to tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that mr gonzales is using mr blow s phone escrow agent well ok no no no no no no no it will go like this feds we need the key to phone re d escrow you have a warrant to tap the line phone re d is on feds yes escrow fine here is our key what happens is feds tap a line find clipper is being used extract serial number get key decipher convo the serial number is never registered to a specific owner it is sent as part of the conversation if i give you my clipper phone you do not need to re register it mainly because it was never registered to me in the first place there are a lot of things that bother me about clipper but this is not one of them let s get our facts straight and not waste effort demolishing straw men ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you d like a circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes on the other hand i can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such as dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption as ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon as i read the current wiretap law it would not be legal now on the other hand assuming a legislative change recording but not decrypting clipper conversations would probably be found constitutional by the supreme court using the same reasoning or the lack thereof by which they permit random roadblocks to check for drunk drivers incidentally if we use that as our model the court will likely not uphold selective recording on the other hand i don t think they ve thrown out drug courier profiles yet must be that exception to the fourth amendment that i can never find in my copy of the bill of rights a lot and i mean a lot will depend on exactly how clippertaps or tipperclaps for encrypted music are used don alvarez showed in the latest risks digest that it s possible to prevent the cops from reading traffic after their warrant expires that is the cops send the lef to the f holder the f holder strips off f and sends u k n to the escrow agents they send either u or k to the cops don says u i say k the cops can t use u in the future because they can t strip off f the f holder never sees u in don s model the escrow agents can t read the traffic because they don t have k in my model they have k but not the message itself and i trust that more because i think the cops and the fbi the f holder are more likely to collaborate on breaking the rules the net result is that by involving the f holder and the escrow agents on every tap we can avoid extending permission to tap
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article strnlghtc ybka dp netcom com sci crypt alt privacy clipper strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn t catch on the scheme breaks down and the government is back to the drawing boards assuming that they haven t prohibited alternatives in the meantime in fact maybe this should be part of the official system before the government is allowed to move this past the experimental stage they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption david while i disagree strongly with you on the issue of our trusting the government i think you have a good idea here there is danger that with funding coming from asset forfeitures the government could continue to promulgate a bad product in spite of poor acceptance making the product pay its way as it must for private ventures would be a good incentive for quality and listening to we the ranters mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article strnlghtc z ka b u netcom com sci crypt strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes you should read the history it was hoover who stopped nixon s cointelpro dead in its tracks because he said it was unconstitutional they tried to get around him every way they could unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever he considered the limits others should obey he ruthlessly invaded the privacy of many private and public citizens mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth another idea use a laptop computer as mentioned earlier the lcd screen is a lot less noisy than a standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run at volts instead of they would be considerably quieter doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re clipper serial numbers need nd court order strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes two safeguards the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies and associate it with a particular court order exactly what would that show the law enforcement block is easy to create given the government key and any serial number if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered if it comes to trail about the wiretap ya some safegaurd that is what if they just harass people as a result or learn things they shouldn t have learned etc putting it another way this question is not very different from the pre clipper question what s to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead the whole point of the escrow system is to prevent the fbi from making illegal wiretaps why not have the fbi holds the keys and that s it why do we need the escrow system at all unless a rd party a judge verifies that the requested serial number is right and the fbi can get any key they like at anytime the escrow system is useless michael golan mg cs princeon edu
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yeah right and if the atf trashes your place on a bad tip they have to pay to repair it sure and if your computer equipment is confisticated in a raid they have to charge you with a crime within say days you re stretching the naivete bit on this one love two minds without a single thought philip barry
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr nynexst com rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air well lets for a hypothetical put our selves in the place of the us end of the drug rings what do we do about the cripple chip first off we would express disaproval to our congress critters and remind them of the large sums of money our legitimate co s provide to their campain coffers we would also let them know via the other channels that a their income is about to take a hit and b their health may not be too good either but just in case the next obvious step to take is to buy mycotoxic and vlsi yeah free enterprise at work now they have the cripple in their pockets literaly as well as figurativly tough about the masses though paul
sci.crypt	pgp where to get it i am both new to this news group and to the net i am facinated by the things i have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where i might get a version of this program that runs under windows ms dos unix w source as of this writting i have no unix access and am running on a nifty windows implamentation of uucico thanks in advance jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge
sci.crypt	re tempest in apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device or build an active farrady cage around the room with a noise signal piped into it while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition at best there is of course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems it s a matter of balancing security versus convenience the problem is that this will also cause a certain amount of interference in all systems within the range of the device a long time ago i built a small jammer to dissuade my brother from using his radio alarm clock at something like am which had just enough range to cover my room and his however something powerful enough to mask all or at least most emissions from your computer equipment is also going to knock out half your neighbourhoods radio and tv reception this isn t going to make you many friends incidentally an older model trs makes a fine wideband jammer grin peter pgut cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em s bound to work everything was so different before it all changed
sci.crypt	re crypto papers on the net in bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq the paper was distributed against the wishes of the nsa i have a copy with a few illicit distribution footnotes scribbled on it and eventually published at one of the crypto conferences things were looking good then xerox patented the algorithms plonk i don t know of anything which uses them also khafre was broken at a later conference and from work on a related algorithm i don t think the existing khufu would hold up too well against a converted differential cryptanalysis attack although it can probably be changed to resist this type of attack peter in case you don t know what the plonk is about check the new hacker s dictionary it s the sound someone makes when they fall to the bottom of a killfile
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge depending on the encryption system so long as everyone has the same key it can be done for example i was using vat which is an internet audio tool for a conference call and we were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn t have the cpu for it so it didn t sound all that good at a different site so you don t neccessarily have to have a clear text bridge but if you do its totally internal to one of the sites involved in the conversation derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes i forwarded an old posting about celp speech compression i ve since been told that the source of this is on cygnus com in pub celp speech tar z i m not in a position to any sun tcp ip gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone by the end of the week seriously i think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running by the end of the week then we ask the pgp guys to add a bytestream crypto filter two weeks at the most damn i wish i had my sparc back i m stuck on a mhz sx i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode i question whether celp is the best approach for this application it produces great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads we want something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high end pc s without dsp cards my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be a better starting point hal finney
sci.crypt	re s s steve b access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations my interpretation of denning s description is that s and s are chosen randomly by agents of the key escrow companies at the start of each chip programming session i imagine that the chips are in a carrier which will allow them all to be programmed fairly quickly there would not be a need to transfer chips one at a time into a little pla programmer as some people have envisioned my guess as to why this procedure is used is that basing the keys on the s and s using a specified algorithm provides an in principle checkable way to verify that no back doors exist in the choice of the random numbers used to generate the keys since we have to trust the escrow companies anyway it does not weaken the system to have the keys be generated from random seeds entered by the escrow agents and since the algorithm for key generation is public modulo skipjack secrecy then in principle an agent could challenge the procedure ask for s and s to be exposed and run his own independent calculation of u and u to verify that that is what is actually being put onto the floppies and yes there are many ways in which failures to follow this scheme could be hard to check the laptop probably will not really be destroyed each time hidden cameras in the ceiling could see the s and s entered by the trusted escrow agents back doors in the chip could allow u to be recovered heck each chip could be recorded with the same u ignoring what was on the floppy hal finney
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland you would be arrested as an international arms trafficker bruce
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make a call to action hopefully we re a strong enough community to act on those calls i realize this is a little optomistic and i m glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don t underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam i speak for myself i second the motion all in favor sounds great but how would something like this be done start up a news group for discussions of things like lobbying tecniques and how to get non computer geeks as pissed off as we are matthew cline read in the letters to the editor colum of time in response to an article on teen suicide people mpcline cats ucsc edu should be aware of the dangers of killing themselves
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption to sci crypt there has been some discussion of our company secured communications technologies inc and on encryption algorithm nea the classic comment on new encryption algorithms comes from friedman no new cypher is worth considering unless it comes from someone who has already broken a very hard one historically friedman has been right it s really hard to develop a good cypher ibm s lucifer the precursor to des turns out to have been fatally flawed most of the des like systems other than des seem to be vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis the first two tries at public key encryption remember knapsack cyphers were broken most if not all of the machine cyphers of the electromechanical era were broken eventually attempts in the computer era to home brew encryption have been disappointing the classic a survey of data insecurity packages in cryptologia contains analyses and breaking techniques for a few of the popular security packages of the late s a new proprietary algorithm no way if the us is permitting general export of this thing it has to be weak that s how the current regulations work currently there s a willingness to allow systems with short keys bits appears to be no problem the bits of des are too many or weak algorithms i think word perfect qualifies under that rule to be exported i can t believe these guys shepherded their technique through the pto and the state department s arms control division without finding that out john nagle p s no i m not thrilled with clipper either but that s a different issue
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth true of all security sytems i think and it is the fundamental measure to be used in establishing a requisite security level owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp x public key on request
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article regq innn u gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying it i question whether celp is the best approach for this application it produces great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads we want something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high end pc s without dsp cards my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be a better starting point yes i m not sure if my xposting to comp speech made it to here too but i ve found that a low sample rate samples sec at bits per sample plus the pd shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into k with a simdgen left over this is definitely worth working on folks and shorten works in well under real time g
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes that is the cops send the lef to the f holder the f holder strips off f and sends u k n to the escrow agents they send either u or k to the cops don says u i say k the cops can t use u in the future because they can t strip off f the f holder never sees u in don s model the escrow agents can t read the traffic because they don t have k in my model they have k but not the message itself and i trust that more because i think the cops and the fbi the f holder are more likely to collaborate on breaking the rules the net result is that by involving the f holder and the escrow agents on every tap we can avoid extending permission to tap i ve been reading this board passively for a while now and find the subject absolutely fascinating especially from the point of view of a civil rights nut like myself my problem is that i m new to the field and paragraphs like the above keep popping up i m sure what mr bellovin is writing about is both fascinating and important but i have no idea what it means anyway i m keen to learn and will read anything i can get my hands on that explains this stuff in lay terms i have a decent cs background but not a huge amount of hyper advanced math can anyone point me to a faq or a decent source of information about the guts of current cryptography and maybe a little history as well i read the piece in this month s wired can anyone tell me how much i should trust the references they suggest thanks in advance steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk quads uchicago edu all i did was kiss a girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	re looking for ms dos crypto programs maddison david wrote i am a new reader of sci crypt i would like to obtain a copy of a public domain program that can encrypt files preferably using des that runs under ms dos i would also like to obtain a program which will password protect floppy disks if this is possible thanks david maddison melbourne australia when you find out a floppy password protect program could you e mail me thanks marcus jones mt mmj brunel ac uk dept materials technology brunel university pgp v public key on request
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace i did you re mistaken nsa s communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments here s an excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified in about feb when an foia request made it public mind you i don t know that they never collect anything they re not supposed to but spying on us citizens isn t in their charter b the comint mission of the national security agency nsa shall be to provide an effective unified organization and control of the communications intelligence activities of the united states conducted against foreign governments to provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto as used in this directive the terms communications intelligence or comint shall be construed to mean all procedures and methods used in the interception of communications other than foreign press and propaganda broadcasts and the obtaining of information from such communications by other than intended recipients but shall exclude censorship and the production and dissemination of finished intelligence they re also tasked with protecting the us s communications but i haven t seen the specific enabling memo on that i assume that s the role under which skipjack was developed nsa is not in the standard setting business though that s why this clipper stuff came from nist which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa jim gillogly mersday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes yes i m not sure if my xposting to comp speech made it to here too but i ve found that a low sample rate samples sec at bits per sample plus the pd shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into k with a simdgen left over this is definitely worth working on folks and shorten works in well under real time i don t think that this should be worked on just in the context of cryptography that s sure to pose all sorts of problems for all sorts of people what s needed is for someone to develop a portable telephone quality speech rs converter imagine if you will a little box that takes data on its serial port and puts out sound and takes sound and codes it to signals on its serial port full duplex now this device is not a cryptographic device it s a portable poor man s sound blaster or whatever you want to call it it s got loads of perfectly legitimate applications for a speech synthesis with a few nifty libraries and some samples b speech recording for electronic messaging c building voicemail systems d internet talk radio e internet relay chat of course some of the electronic messaging in item b might be encrypted possibly realtime but that s the user s decision one would need of these talky boxes and a pair of modems and some kind of cutout to switch over and some code on say a laptop i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware it s interesting to note that i d already talked with a couple of folks about building such a thing before this whole clipper thing started i even went so far as to track down a couple of folks who are able to make sample units given incentive and some time i d envisioned finding a couple of folks interested in such a project and helping fund development of a public domain board layout and parts set that could be published in the form of cad drawings for a couple of major cad packages and in postscript anyone interested i ll start a provisional mailing list let me know if you want on mjr
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article sfqpuju wc iqop t andrew cmu edu jon c r bennett jb m andrew cmu edu writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed celular phones direction finding and directional monitoring receivers can you say little black bakery truck david jon david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re trademark violation claimed the risc processor made by fairchild sold to intergraph much the same story as the r remember how spielberg lost the control of star wars when the dod started using the name the loss was confirmed in court
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow argh this is what i get for acknowledging david sternlight s existence in article strnlghtc x ir netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens okay it looks like i am going to have to do the history lesson after all during the vietnam war there were a great many citizens opposed to it who considered themselves perfectly law abiding although mr nixon and his lackeys thought otherwise the federal government had no compunction about adding people who are otherwise decent law abiding and upstanding but disagree with us to your nice little list do you think this could never happen again note that i am not speculating about what the government could do but discussing the sort of observation including but not limited to phone tapping that the government put its citizens under during a time of national tension your naivete is still appalling btw i mean read what you posted again how are we to differentiate between good people and bad people answer a priori we can t we have to assume now which way do we assume do we assume a priori that a citizen is law abiding or rather a potential communistdruglordchildabusercultmessiah one of the things that s supposedly great about america is the freedoms enjoyed by citizens who are presumed to be law abiding until proven otherwise mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn t riot the minute they saw that film they waited on justice which never came ice t
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth deleted a circut court judge in illinois once said when dealing with a government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its citizenry one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration the problem is the people are not having the scope or implicataions pointed out to them hell most haven t even heard of clipper and when they do it will be in soothing language telling everyone how nice the government is at letting them have privacy how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision the provisions of the crime bill the abuses of civil forfeiture the government uses polls to support percent of the people want gun bans etc yet the same pollsters have determined according to the media that percent of the people are unaware of what the holocaust is the people cannot be expected to give decent decisions when they are denied the information that all these abuses and whittling away of rights are going on quietly when they find out when it hits them it will be too late one cannot expect each citizen to spend all their time probing searching researching etc for example how big a percentage of the average population even has access to usenet way less than percent i bet how many outside of internet usenet are even aware of what big brother is doing or have been exposed to arguments of both sides of the issue what the public will get is only one side the government s side that is scary this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day the people at large need to be informed but how i am but one person i try to talk to everyone that will listen but i can hardly make any kind of dent pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in c a t demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article regq innn u gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying it the following program is a very quick hack i created a few months ago to determine whether a sun sparcstation ipc could perform real time full duplex encrypted audio with resulting data rates sustainable by today s modems this test program reads linearly encoded audio from the audio device compresses it with gsm compresses frames of bit samples recorded at khz into bits resulting in a hz frame rate encrypts it with des then reverses the process and sends the reconstructed audio back to the audio device the compressed encrypted audio stream is kbits s my sparcstation ipc not exactly a very fast machine these days certainly slower than an elc would just barely sustain this activity audio underruns would occcur but the speech was very intelligible i ran it as a real time process to get the best results remember though that this program is a quick hack and the performance can certainly be improved the audio compression routines can be ftp d from tub cs tu berlin de i believe look for gsm or toast i used eric young s des implementation but i no longer know where i got it from cheers greg cut here test program to see how much cpu it takes for secure digital audio written by g onufer greg cheers bungi com written on a sun ipc running solaris with a sun isdn s bus card and a speakerbox include stdlib h include unistd h include fcntl h include stdio h include sys types h include sys audioio h include stropts h include gsm h include des h boolean t svs audio init int fd audio info t prev info audio info t info if prev info null if ioctl fd audio getinfo prev info perror audio getinfo return b false audio initinfo info info record pause b true info play pause b true info play sample rate info play encoding audio encoding linear info play channels info play precision info record sample rate info record encoding audio encoding linear info record channels info record precision info record buffer size if ioctl fd audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return b false if ioctl fd i flush flushrw perror i flush return b false audio initinfo info info record pause b false info play pause b false if ioctl fd audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return b false return b true boolean t svs in int ifd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample if read ifd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs in short read n return b false gsm encode handle sample buf return b true boolean t svs out int ofd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample if gsm decode handle buf sample fprintf stderr svs out gsm decode failed n return b false if write ofd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs out short write n return b false return b true main gsm handle gsm frame frame int audiofd int option des cblock key ivec in ivec out des key schedule ks in ks out des cblock cbuf in cbuf out cbuf buf audiofd open dev audio o rdwr if audiofd perror open exit initialize gsm compression code if handle gsm create null fprintf stderr svs gsm create failed n exit option b true if gsm option handle gsm opt fast option fprintf stderr svs gsm option fast failed n exit initialize des code des random key key if des set key key ks in fprintf stderr svs des set key failed n exit if des set key key ks out fprintf stderr svs des set key failed n exit memset ivec in sizeof ivec in memset ivec out sizeof ivec out open audio device and configure it if svs audio init audiofd null exit for get samples bit linear hz and convert to a byte frame if svs in audiofd handle frame exit encrypt decrypt block des cbc encrypt frame cbuf out long ks in ivec in des encrypt des cbc encrypt cbuf out cbuf buf long ks out ivec out des decrypt memmove frame cbuf buf if if memcmp cbuf in cbuf buf fprintf stderr svs memcmp failed n exit endif take byte frame and convert to samples and play if svs out audiofd handle frame exit gsm destroy handle cut here
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware i suggest we start with the ubiquitous sun to get a lot of momentum going custom hardware isn t going to go anywhere until there s a user base anyone interested i ll start a provisional mailing list let me know if you want on count me in i need someone at the us end to experiment on the protocols with and i like the way you code give me weeks to move house and settle in then we ll go for it seriously g
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it the answer to your second question lies in the way you phrased the first one the media is the medis isn t is the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands of publications some say this some say that how can the bulk of the people be informed when they won t read informative publications rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com
sci.crypt	hearing on april i received a fax of a letter from representative markey subcommittee on telecommunications and finance to ron brown secretary of commerce since encryption and the clipper chip are raised in this letter i felt it would be of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite i ve typed in the letter which follows any errors in transcription are mine glenn tenney tenney netcom com amateur radio aa er voice fax letter of interest follows april the honorable ronald h brown secretary department of commerce th and pennsylvania ave nw washington dc dear secretary brown as you know i have long been interested in the privacy and security of telecommunications transmissions and data in a networked environment recent reports concerning the administration s endorsement of an electronic encryption standard based upon clipper chip technology have raised a number of related issues the international competitiveness of u s high tech manufacturers and the software industry is a key factor that the government should consider when addressing issues of encryption and data security as the nation moves forward in developing the national communications and information infrastructure security of telecommunications transmissions and network data will be an increasingly important factor for protecting the privacy of users the hacker community can compromise the integrity of telecommunications transmissions and databases linked by the network the people and businesses that use the nation s telecommunications network and the personal computers linked through it increasingly are demanding that information be protected against unauthorized access alteration and theft i am concerned that the administration s plan may mean that to remain competitive internationally u s companies would be compelled to develop two products one for u s government customers and another for private commercial users who may want a higher encryption standard this may inadvertently increase costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both markets to assist the subcommittee s analysis of this issue please respond to the following questions has the encryption algorithm or standard endorsed by the administration been tested by any entity other than nsa nist or the vendor if so please identify such entities and the nature of testing performed if not please describe any plans to have the algorithm tested by outside experts and how such experts will be chosen under the administration s plan what entities will be the holders of the keys to decrypt scrambled data what procedures or criteria will the administration utilize to designate such key holders does the encryption algorithm endorsed by the administration contain a trap door or back door which could allow an agency or entity of the federal government to crack the code it is clear that over time changes in technologies used for communications will require new techniques and additional equipment how will encryption devices adapt to the rapid advancement of telecommunications technology what additional costs would the proposed encryption place on the federal government what is the estimated cost to consumers and businesses which opt for the federal standard in their equipment what is the commerce department s assessment of the competitive impact of the administration s endorsement of the clipper chip technology on u s exports of computer and telecommunications hardware and software products i would appreciate your response by no later than close of business wednesday april if you have any questions please have your staff contact colin crowell or karen colannino of the subcommittee staff at sincerely edward j markey chairman glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio aa er
sci.crypt	implementing a diffie hellman key exchange i want to add link encryption to a module that multiplexes upper level routines into a single data link the upper levels won t know about this and thus key exchange shall only need to occur once at the initial link establishment i figure that i can do this with des and a diffie hellman key exchange is using a diffie hellman exchange to establish a bit des key acceptable in other words what are the pro s and con s of such a setup are there any important issues to watch out for aside from filtering out unacceptable keys and in order to achieve this i guess i will need to use bit math routines for probable prime number calculation exponentiation etc so could someone point me towards a good package this is strictly non commercial matthew matt consent uts edu au the power of one man seems like a small squirt tdhoh
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article c d r c p demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware i suggest we start with the ubiquitous sun to get a lot of momentum going custom hardware isn t going to go anywhere until there s a user base why don t we move down even further toward the masses by setting this up on an ibm pc clone probably needs to be a or a with a sound blaster and a v bis modem those components are very widely available i don t know if the pc has enough horsepower to encrypt the data at realtime but the sound blaster has to hardware compression and will work at any sampling rate from khz to khz doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article tenneyc hqh s netcom com glenn s tenney tenney netcom com writes of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite glenn thanks for posting that i was surprised to notice however that one question i might have expected to be asked was not are all forms of strong encryption other than the clipper to be made illegal speaking of which is anyone aware of whether that question has been asked of any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government i have not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been reported but i could have easily missed it ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com po box minnetonka mn
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping the nsa s charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter but as with any intrenched government agency they will do what they think is expedent jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article rand org jim rand org jim gillogly writes i did you re mistaken nsa s communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments here s an excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified in about feb when an foia request made it public interesting where can i get the whole thing nsa is not in the standard setting business though that s why this clipper stuff came from nist which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa several of the newspaper reports have made it fairly clear that the nsa did all the real work you can t believe everything you read in the papers but the package of information the nist is faxing out has so little information beyond what s widely known that it sounds like it s true pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip of course she does it s just she s been toasted so often for being an nsa patsy that she s keeping her head down you can always mail her directly as denning guvax acc georgetown edu denning cs cosc georgetown edu or denning cs georgetown edu g i found the personal attacks on prof denning pretty disgusting i don t agree with all her positions but i think scholars can disagree without the argument getting into the gutter if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here gideon yuval gideony microsoft com fax twx
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born at pm in cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge a new citizen of the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	re clipper scope was overreacting pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes the problem is the people are not having the scope or implicataions pointed out to them hell most haven t even heard of clipper and when they do it will be in soothing language telling everyone how nice the government is at letting them have privacy much more deleted the people at large need to be informed but how i am but one person i try to talk to everyone that will listen but i can hardly make any kind of dent here is how lets write a document which includes all the reasons we oppose clipper in clear concise non techincal manner i urge everyone of you to take the very simple start below and repost it with changes let the text evolve until we reach something most of us like then all of you should send a copy with a personnel letter to your congress critter local reporter on sci tech etc please to make this a success try to post only an agreed version not flames to respond to a flame to this please change the subject to e g clipper scope discussion michael golan mg cs princeton edu all of these are points which should be made into paragraphs what is wrong with the clipper chip by usenet users it is secret how can we trust the escrow agencies it is not cost effective we want other encryption systems the government seems to want to disallow it in the future anyone can build a non key system we are worried about a back door once everyone uses a clipper chip the mechanism for a big brother government is in place a change of government can lead to it especially since the escrow agencies operation is not governed by law so the president can change the rules to allow free access to the keys at any time e g during war few criminals are caught by wiretaps the cost and risks are unjustified once the fbi get hold of a key it can decrypt past and future conversations
sci.crypt	re what is going on paul repacholi zrepachol cc curtin edu au wrote ps the first posting i saw i thought was a joke in very bad taste my appologies to the person who broke the news for what it s worth clipper chip announcement clipper csrc ncsl nist gov wrote note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house i haven t been able to open an ftp session with that machine operating under the assumption that the address was wrong i tried using nslookup and nicname whois ls nist gov nnsc nsf net host or domain name internet address ncsl server mail gw ncsl nist gov mail gw ncsl ncsl server dove nist gov ncsl server ecf ncsl nist gov ecf ncsl ncsl server enh nist gov ncsl server sunmgr ncsl nist gov sunmgr ncsl that s all i could find about the ncsl domain oh and i tried an mx lookup on the machine in question which failed nicname whois domain lookups at both registries failed too so i thought hey i m just not using the tools right and tried calling the bbs number no answer i m probably doing something wrong or perhaps the machine has been put behind a firewall but it does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become an un machine if someone would try ftp ing to it or knows what s up i d really appreciate the info scott doty sdoty odie santarosa edu
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge a multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge if it isn t at one of the receiptants location forget encryption at all you have blown any security you thought you might have had jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article c wdfo demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks i ve got a better idea we give one set to the kgb c o washington embassy and the other set to the red chinese imho one should place the keybanks into satellites space the recovery should be done only by highly visible teams of astronauts borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	re tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device this doesn t work due to the near field far field effect you may stop someone five yards away from listening in but someone fifty yards away will be relatively unaffected unless you pump out hundreds of watts and jam all the neighbourhood tv s as well in that case the government will stomp on you ask any radio ham democratic governments care even more about their voters right to watch soap operas than they do about national security and dictators consider their propaganda to be an integral part of their national security and holland cs colostate edu doug holland writes another idea use a laptop computer as mentioned earlier the lcd screen is a lot less noisy than a standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run at volts instead of they would be considerably quieter i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace we had a senior nsa scientist in cambridge at one of our workshops recently in fact he was here when the clipper announcement was made but we didn t learn of it till after he d gone he said on this point that he was forbidden by law to monitor conversations between us nationals and he is a chap who is very precise about his choice of words so i don t expect he d have any qualms about monitoring a domestic us conversation if one of the parties was an alien however it got me thinking of the navajo code talkers just imagine hello is that the iraqi mission in new york this is the iraqi foreign ministry in baghdad i am farouq hussein us citizen social security number so and so yes indeed this is the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also a us citizen my social security number is such and such here is our report on activities against the satan clinton ross
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes ideas that are claimed not to work deleted how about putting your system inside a faraday cage even i could build one jim information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article vuumdq mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman writes unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever he considered the limits others should obey he ruthlessly invaded the privacy of many private and public citizens mel in when i was a grad student at uw in seattle i had a chance to read hoover s book masters of deceit and i quote a sentence from memory and beware my fellow americans a communist may look just as an ordinary person i went to the mirror and it was true borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today david sternlight writes a little perspective might be in order i cannot believe you can make these claims given hard evidence of abuse do you ignore stories about survellience of martin luther king have you blocked from your mind mccarthy s crusade in the s the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low and how many illegal wiretaps are performed funny but i ll be that the fbi doesn t keep statistics on these confidential informer illegal wiretap karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes the nsa s charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter but as with any intrenched government agency they will do what they think is expedent there are other laws and directives which bear upon the subject for example the national computer security act of specifically directs nbs sic to work with nsa on developing security standards for civilian federal computers pick up the bill from cpsr org it also includes a report describing it and some of the legislative history including concerns about nsa s involvement note also that nsa is specifically charged with running the national computer security center to quote the aforementioned report nsa also will work with industries at the dod computer security center to develop security standards for private sector use it may or may not be a good idea to have nsa tinkering with this but i m pretty sure it s legal btw when it comes to development of cryptosystems there may be two choices either nsa helped develop it in which case maybe they can crack it maybe not but probably no one else can or nsa didn t help in which case they probably can crack it and maybe others as well
sci.crypt	re what is going on sdoty odie santarosa edu scott doty writes but it does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become an un machine if someone would try ftp ing to it or knows what s up i d really appreciate the info csrc ncsl nist gov is ftp able from here steve
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct
sci.crypt	re tempest the low radiation claims one sees on monitors these days pertain to allegedly harmful electromagnetic emissions which does not necessarily have anything to do wtih tempest security i think the alleged hazard is bs but that s another topic
sci.crypt	how sensible is des towards bit errors hello how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key thanx for hints axel experience is what you get if you don t get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse d kriftel germany e mail ad cat de voice fax
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article r av bg transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet just ask postmaster for the e mail address of the printer paul
sci.crypt	re clipper not good enough for government in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes there s been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds n ends in the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at t may not be suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey in a letter to commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to inadvertently increased costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april communications daily this is stupid won t it cost more to those companies hoping to serve the gov t and private markets if they don t use the same technology doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re encryption chip availibility in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article ofpppcs iuy k mr andrew cmu edu stephen j ludwick sl b andrew cmu edu says hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated motorola certainly makes them but i don t know how you would go about buying one you d probably have to buy one of our secure radios you could also bring in encryption chips from outside the country doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page under the heading cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the other two are efficiency and ease of use michael l mauldin carnegie mellon university
sci.crypt	re how sensible is des towards bit errors in ad cat axel dunkel writes how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using for a single bit input block a one bit error will have a percent chance of corrupting each of the output bits in other words it essentially turns the output block into a random number if you re encrypting data in cbc mode however only the one bit block will be affected the next block and all that follow it will be decrypted properly it s a good idea to have some kind of error correction in your system if corrupted bits are likely todd
sci.crypt	is it illegal to transmit encrypted data i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology however is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u s to another country if so then which laws apply to this situation georgel neosoft com george livsey visualize whirrled peas net s worth
sci.crypt	re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security in article apr midway uchicago edu smk quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky writes ok i should have read the thread before posting my own i would just add to phil s very infomative discussion the following caveat the fifth amendment applies only in crinial cases nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself maybe you are using the wrong amendment if someone were to seize a safe containing your paper records and demand that you produce the combination the applicable defense would be on grounds of unreasonable search and seizure the police would be entitled to subpoena documents relating to a specific matter but any broad search such as implied by impounding all your records would be unconstitutional in the case of the safe they would probably get a locksmith and assert that they only examined documents covered by the warrent sure in the cryptographic case their only resort would be rubber hose cryptography this would also make a good mental experiment to use in choosing escrow agents would you trust this proposed agent with a key to your hard disk or half the key for that matter robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	re s s in article r ue access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations suppose instead that s and s can be reconstructed given or of the unit keys generated in a single batch through some sort of known plaintext attack say suppose further that or of the chips programmed in each session never find their way into commercial products but instead end up elsewhere suppose the folks at elsewhere can determine a unit key given physical access to one of these chips then those same folks can determine s and s for the whole batch too many suppositions yeah probably pat
sci.crypt	re clipper chip is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from wiretaps in court won t defense attorneys attempt to obtain the details of the method if the prosecution attempts to present evidence from wiretaps in court is it certain that such attempts will fail james b shearer
sci.crypt	re pgp where to get it jeff hupp jhupp shockwave win net wrote i am facinated by the things i have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where i might get a version of this program that runs under windows ms dos unix w source as of this writting i have no unix access and am running on a nifty windows implamentation of uucico at the moment pgp is available in executable format for ms dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep a copy although the mac version is getting hard to find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no ee jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams keats pgp public key available upon request or by finger
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls depending on the encryption system so long as everyone has the same key it can be done for example i was using vat which is an internet audio tool for a conference call and we were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn t have the cpu for it so it didn t sound all that good at a different site you would have to use something other than the at t black box in other words i don t think public key would work the session key would have to be agreed upon prior to the conversation and distributed to all sites beforehand or go out and get a stu iii doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu these opinions do not reflect motorola thinking in any way shape or form
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article c ojm cjh news mr net tmplee tis com theodore m p lee writes in article tenneyc hqh s netcom com glenn s tenney tenney netcom com writes of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite glenn thanks for posting that i was surprised to notice however that one question i might have expected to be asked was not are all forms of strong encryption other than the clipper to be made illegal speaking of which is anyone aware of whether that question has been asked of any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government i have not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been reported but i could have easily missed it please let us know if you get a solid answer to the question of legality of other strong cryptosystems so far any references i have seen have been weasel words more plans in the future etc but nothing that could be taken as a no strong crypto will not be outlawed i have heard not verified that the crime bill before congress has language that either requires escrow of keys or that will regard all systems unapproved for public use like strong cryptosystems not trivially broken by the govt or without escrowed keys which one cannot readily change read use being only permitted by folks with special connections or government agencies as either terrorist tools or drug dealers tools not outlawed specifically but by added civil forfeiture powers and clever wording effectively outlawed for all intents and purposes now for some idle speculation for those who don t care hit n now crypto being effectively outlawed could be done without specifically outlawing any class of crypto systems for example a crowbar hammers screwdrivers and such can be regarded as burglar tools pretty much at the whim of the authorities based primarily on the individual possessing them in the car etc not being in a trade that makes routine use of these tools in a like manner one who has no legitimate need gov t definition for strong crypto software or systems and is caught using them might find themselves in possession of terrorist tools in other words if one is not working for a corporation with extremely sensitive commercial data that warrants in the fed s opinion strong security or a government agency and securing only work related data not personal data one will most likely be nailed on this if discoverd a personal desire for privacy most certainly will not be regarded as a legitimate need why do you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement an individual with legitimate endeavors would not be so concerned government is not in the business of revealing your personal secrets to the public so you must be trying to conceal or planning to conceal some unlawful or criminal activity do you have something to hide hmmmm i expect that initially there will be some people selected either at random or who happen to have been troublemakers for the purposes of making an example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega s one asking about a right to privacy will probably get a response that there is no constitutional right for privacy spelled out as such an argument used in the abortion debate you do not have a right to have security that legitimate law enforcement cannot break as suggested in the clipper press release this in a nutshell is what i find so extremely frightening not only for crypto systems as in this case but for the precident it will set laying the groundwork for future erosions of privacy escrow of both safe deposit box keys master keys or combinations for privately owned safes and so on why not i cannot think of a better way to make an end run around those inconvenient parts of the us constitution a law cannot be easily declared unconstitutional if it there is no specific law it would simply be a minor extension of the rico statutes or wod policies a simple policy decision just like so many of the gun regulations are mainly batf policy decisions the conversation of the fed agents would go something like we are gonna seize your home your computers your car your bank account you don t have to undress and give us yer clothes unless you have a floppy in yer pocket because they are all connected with your acquisition transport and use of terrorist tools and or drug dealers tools part of the wod or against terrorism ya unnerstand no decent american subject would be against these noble causes note we are not accusing you of any wrong doing we are only saying your home computers car bank assets are connected with wrong doing somehow they housed transported and funded these terrorist tools only a civil matter heh heh we had this tip grin therefore the constitutional protection on individual rights do not apply we are arresting the tainted property not you evil grin if you wish to deposit a bond hire some attorneys and go to court to prove the innocence of this property that they are not terrorist tools and again to prove they are not also drug dealers tools go ahead we have no problem with that course with your bank assets seized no car computer or home probably no job too and your less than limitless resources you might run into some minor practical difficulties grin that is what has me going so damned ballistic it is exactly how the logic goes when someone gives a tip that your home has been used to store drugs note no trace of drugs need to be found on the property only some bozo who will say yup i stored stuff in that dude s house probably to get out of a year sentence for dealing much more cost effective to let him walk to bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets ob disclaimer of course ok note that i am not a lawyer and can only base these speculations on what i have read heard been told regarding past civil forfeiture cases and how they are used to augment the budgets of assorted agencies or to get cooperation of folks who just want to be left alone or who do not wish to be put in a risky situation especially in areas where they are denied either meaningful police protection and the means to be able to even pretend to defend themselves as is quite common back east like nj ma nyc wa dc or out west in ca these people have the choice of cowering under the government boot or cowering under threats of pissed off drug dealing gang bangers helpless in either case all behind some dude who drops a dime on you for his gain or behind the feds wanting to make an example civil forfeiture being the hook point is are these speculations way out of line or are they all too typical and if so does the extension to crypto and just about anything that the feds regard as inconvenient seem reasonable and if not why not what are our guarantees besides the government promises none ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com po box minnetonka mn pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct depends on whether the filler is a constant makes checking easy but susceptible to replay or variable e g timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make it easier for the inquisitors to know if they ve missed messages or gotten them out of sequence or other interesting things that sort of person might care about it is still easy to conceal super encryption at least until the inquisitors get ahold of the k key which can take a while presumably not in near real time worst case in which the escrow agencies provide the u key to the local cops still only gets one side of the conversation per warrant unless the same key is used for both directions which i suppose the capstone version of the chip will probably insist on pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge a multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge if it isn t at one of the receiptants location forget encryption at all you have blown any security you thought you might have had most of the people using encrypted conference bridges these days are military or equivalent like cia and other embassy personnel so putting bridges on the recipient s location is normal it s in a vault on a military base or ft meade and the secure phones are in sound proof rooms with big locks on the doors because they re talking about classified stuff or golf with other generals that paradigm will change as we start using encrypted phones in our offices or homes to carry on normal conversations about dinner plans and stock purchases and meeting schedules and technical info and the good batch of illegal frop that we got last weekend from bob most people don t use sound proof vaults and may use bridges in their pbx or from the local phone company way calls or long distance or value added phone company e g alliance conference bridges if clipjack is mainly used for the radio portion of cellular phones the conferencing aspects don t change but there may be a market niche for trusted conference bridge providers though i suppose the inquisitors would try to get a blanket wiretap authorization for many bridges just in case a bad guy might use the service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw these are my opinions and not that of any other entity my god its full of stars dave i don t know about you but we ve got company epidemic
sci.crypt	official secrets act usa sorry my news reader doesn t seem to know how to copy a subject header this tracks the thread why people don t need strong crypto the atomic energy act of expressly forbids thinking about building nuclear devices while i was in grad school a friend of mine got a security clearance to work on the defense for the progressive magazine he found lots of articles which were public domain removed from the local engineering library madison wisconsin so the lawyers sent him all over the states to other libraries to show that the information in the article was already public what pissed everyone off was a local underground paper went and published the article anyway it had been precensored by the feds that s what this was all about so the judge declared the case moot the atomic energy act of has never been tested in court from my discussions with several people familiar with the case only other times has this preemptive clause been used in every case the people simply did what they felt like and courts tossed the cases out for all intents and purposes the government does have precidence for declaring things classified after it has been published while i was working on star wars this happened to me my clearance was in the works and i developed a method for tracking particle beams it was good enough to classify so i was no longer allowed to work on it a friend from canada was in the same boat he developed a method to compute stripping cross sections but because the subject was classified he was not allowed to present his own paper at a conference he later published it in an open journal without problems when the going gets wierd the wierd turn pro the feds can do whatever they want whenever they feel like it and they will make up rules to let themselves get away with it since the mass media can t tell the difference between a joke and the real thing like ranch appocolypse for the waco massacre don t count on them to help spread the word about their loss of freedom the government can make strong crypto illegal so what since the government does not obey any of its own rules why should we patience persistence truth reality dvader hemp imi hep anl gov dr mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	citations for electronic cash papers please deeply grateful for citations to any papers on electronic cash schemes enquiring minds c eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy ms sj ca chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills ca
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu wrote in article c d r c p demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware why don t we move down even further toward the masses by setting this up on an ibm pc clone probably needs to be a or a with a sound blaster and a v bis modem those components are very widely i concur for a pc to pc version but for a interactive thing like internet talk radio it makes me cringe at the amount of hogging such a thing would do to the bandwidth of the internet i mean meg files getting floated around for internet talk radio is bad enough i have a solution use the phone system take your electronics and use them on point to point conversations through the phone and thats it if you need to tell someone something secret and very important wouldn t it make more sense to write it out concisely and if it s just a quick yo then use a code word and spend your twenty cents those good ol analog systems like shortwave telephones and tv s have a use don t gunk up a nice digital packet network trying to emulate them baxter baxter
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes there are three issues with clipper the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working my answer with one significant exception is yes i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be assuming that their real objectives are as stated to permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with a minimum risk of abuse the exception is that u exists outside of the chip on a programming diskette that s seriously wrong u and u should be loaded onto the chip separately to those who disagree and i don t claim my answer is obvious though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper i had originally blasted the scheme i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions do it in the context of the last issue i present below right here i m discussing just the technical aspects and no i don t by any means claim that just because something can be done it should be ok steve here s a sketch of an alternative that i believe addresses most of the objections to the clipper scheme notation concatenation exclusive or e m k message m encrypted by key k d m k message m decrypted by key k h m hash digest signature of message m important values u x local chip unit key from escrow agency x u x remote chip unit key from escrow agency x n serial number of the local chip n serial number of the remote chip a number of escrow agencies k k session keys agreed upon external to this protocol f family key need not be secret protocol choose k k a such that k k k a remote chip does same for k k k a compute the following l e k u l a e k a u a l n e n l l a f remote chip does the same for l l a l send l to remote chip and receive l from remote chip compute ke h k n l l a k d l f kd h k d l f k n l l a note that d l f n l l a remote chip does the same for ke and kd user data is encrypted decrypted with keys ke ke kd kd assumptions no trap doors in e d and h h is not invertible algorithms for e d and h are secret otherwise a software implementation bogus chip could communicate with a real chip the chip only supports the following operation return n load k x return e k x u x return e n l l a f given e n l l a f return n l l a load k given e n l l a f compute ke kd given m return e m ke given m return d m kd anything programmed into the chip can be determined by destroying the chip u u a f n u u a can not be determined except by destroying the chip unfortunately this may not be true in reality i suppose it s possible to determine how a chip has been programmed with a sophisticated sp x ray machine to look for blown fuses the u s are programmed independantly by the escrow agencies notes for tapping escrow agency y is given n e k y u y n e k y u y and returns k y k y lea s must contact all escrow agencies with the serial numbers from both chips and the encrypted partial keys this allows the agencies to record that both chips were tapped lea s only get the session key not the key to all conversations of a particular chip this precludes real time decrypting of a conversation but that isn t one of the stated requirements observation in order for any secure by tap able communication scheme to work the active parts need to share a secret and if this secret is revealed communications by those that know the secret can be made un tap able obvious candidates are the cryptographic algorithm and the master family key relative size and complexity suggests that the key can be obtained from a silicon implementation of the scheme a lot easier and faster than the algorithm rsbx raymond s brand rbrand usasoc soc mil
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes think again you won t see me using apple s new signature from the finder feature why not it hasn t been released so there s no way for you to evaluate it yet after all apple could have been smart and had aoce use an md hash encrypted with rsa just like pkcs signatures they could even be actually pkcs compliant for all you know why not wait until it is released and hard information is available before passing judgement on it aoce s algorithm s aren t secret because apple s being fascistic aoce itself remains secret except for apple demos at macworld simply because it s not done yet it may be flawed and it may not however you can t tell which until you actually see it i at least am quite impressed with what i have seen so far and have no expectation of being disappointed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	government intentions regarding encryptoion there is an article in communications week april s issue which states definitively that not only is the justice department trying to revive the wiretapping bill but they are also trying to find a way to force key registration clipper is an obvious thrust in exactly this direction dorothy dennings is quoted in this missive communications week april th page read it and get peeved folks then act now or lose your fundamental right to privacy clinton has shown us that his only interest in this has to do with abortion and not the right of all citizens to be secure in their papers and effects karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line by bankrupting yourself live internet in chicago an mcsnet first
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes a personal desire for privacy most certainly will not be regarded as a legitimate need why do you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement an individual with legitimate endeavors would not be so concerned government is not in the business of revealing your personal secrets to the public so you must be trying to conceal or planning to conceal some unlawful or criminal activity do you have something to hide hmmmm you have underlined here the battle that must be fought it is a battle for the hearts and minds of the american public people must realize that the government is not their a fit father confessor the government does not have a right to share our every thought the moment we decide to share that thought with someone else at a distance in order to protect ourselves from a government bent on undermining the constitution we must realize that our government is our enemy as much if not more than the soviet union ever was this is hard for some people who have been brought up with loyalty to our government cast as being synonmous with patriotism i expect that initially there will be some people selected either at random or who happen to have been troublemakers for the purposes of making an example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega s we must be vigilant and make sure that we do not let such events go by unprotested we must be willing to fight the government at every step of the way that is what has me going so damned ballistic it is exactly how the logic goes when someone gives a tip that your home has been used to store drugs note no trace of drugs need to be found on the property only some bozo who will say yup i stored stuff in that dude s house probably to get out of a year sentence for dealing much more cost effective to let him walk to bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets its time we rolled back this nonsense civil forfeiture is the most effective end run around the constitution that has ever been promulgated our enemy used to be the soviets now it is clearly our own government smg
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct yes but the extra encryption could be applied before the message is encrypted by the clipper so that the wrapper would be fine the phone s serial number and the session key would be in the law enforcement field etc but the message wouldn t be readable even if the particular clipper s key were obtained from the escrow agents in fact it shouldn t even be possible to detect that a message has been double encrypted without a court order right
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes it is still easy to conceal super encryption at least until the inquisitors get ahold of the k key which can take a while presumably not in near real time worst case in which the escrow agencies provide the u key to the local cops still only gets one side of the conversation per warrant unless the same key is used for both directions which i suppose the capstone version of the chip will probably insist on i was under the impression from reading denning s description of the clipper s operation that the same session key is used in both directions for encrypting the message text but that each chip uses it s own key for encrypting the session key into the law enforcement field so you only need to know the u key for one of the phones involved to decrypt the messages in both directions
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes text deleted to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense i never advocated not saying what you believe in i m advocating second thought and calm a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about it i have my thesis was on sun tzu more to the point those who are called the good militarists of old could make opponents lost contact between front and back lines lose reliability between large and small groups lose mutual concern for the welfare of the different social classes among them lose mutual accomodation between the rulers and the ruled lose enlistments among the soldiers lose coherence within the armies they went into action when it was advantageous stopped when it was not today it is sitting on your hands will get you nowhere in this battle jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	re write to clinton in article r a h t transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house is this white house e mail address really working yet someone posted such an address on compuserve a few months ago but apparently the white house wasn t really set up to recive hundreds thousands of messages a day to that account and didn t want people to use it yet so is this mci address something the people at the white house actually read or is it another craig shergold story i don t know i m just asking unless the people at the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out a letter on paper that flat white stuff all over my desk and snail mailing it to the white house i imagine writing to your local representative and senator wouldn t hurt either heck why not write to al gore while you re at it greg greg brail citibank gjb fig citib com
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago i don t believe you and i don t believe your friend why because des is not known to have any known plaintext attacks readily availble unless your friend knows something and is keeping it secret he was bullshitting you now it is possible that he noted a weakness in the implementation of the kerberos protocol for instance using a weak rng to generate keys might cut down on the keyspace not for the user keys for the other kind who s name i can t remember however this is not what was claimed you are claiming a general weakness in des which is not known to exist in the open literature don t get me wrong des is weaker than it should be however cracking it in minutes requires more money be spent on the cracking machine than any organization i know of has available perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re write to clinton mcimail com white house is this white house e mail address really working yet someone posted such an address on compuserve a few months ago but apparently the white house wasn t really set up to recive hundreds thousands this is a real address my understanding of the current process that mail takes is it gets downloaded on floppy disk and is processed by retiree volunteers who match the message against message profiles and check the message count i e yeah that s a for gays in the military what s this clipper stuff must be against gays in the military the higher volume white house email stuff is in the works i know for a fact but won t be online for probably another month or two at the soonest my understanding is that the link speed will increase direct internet instead of compu erve to floppy but the message processing will remain the same unless the people at the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out a letter on paper that flat white stuff all over my desk and snail mailing it to the white house i imagine writing to your local representative and senator wouldn t hurt either heck why not write to al gore while you re at it the white house email does get read i agree that printing it and sending cc to everyone you can think of is probably better because it is more visible but the message processing fitting messages against a template is the same in either case mjr
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data in article c ly gbx sugar neosoft com georgel neosoft com george livsey writes i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology however is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u s to another country if so then which laws apply to this situation from the us law perspective unless you re engaging in illegal speech it s not illegal to use encryption yet the nsa is allowed to try to listen but you re not obligated to make it easy for them yet the other country may have more repressive laws about that i gather france s bureaucracy wants to know what you re saying and in the old soviet union they didn t need laws to make things illegal paranoia follows for those of you who want to play it safe the fact that the nsa is listening may affect your willingness to use wimpy crypto technologies but it may also affect your willingness to use technologies that violate rsa s patents e g if you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you re doing so and if the secret service catches on they may decide that the mere fact that rsa hasn t filed a lawsuit against you doesn t mean that you don t deserve to have your computer confiscated for possible patent violation munitions law violation espionage money laundering drug importation and creatin a disturbance and then not give it back because you did violate the patent even though they had to drop all the other charges unlike that nasty steve jackson who had the gall not to be guilty of anything pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this yes that s true tempest is nothing magic it s just listening to any available electromagnetic emissions and using all the analysis techniques you know to separate out the interesting stuff the nice thing about old crts is that they used to put out lots of signal so they re easy to detect and if you do your sync carefully you can watch the output on the monitor in your deceptively marked chevy step van some brands of electric typewriters were even worse in both cases it s especially nice because it gets you the data the user is looking at rather than whatever stuff the paging algorithm is paging out to disk etc with newer quieter equipment there isn t as much signal and it s harder to isolate the fun parts tempest rated equipment has much lower signal levels but everything has vibrations as master chuan said pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps
sci.crypt	amiga ripem has anyone ported ripem to the amiga yet or is anyone working on it emailed responses are fine ken guyton emory university preferred uskmg unix cc emory edu information technology division uucp gatech emoryu uskmg atlanta ga non domain bitnet uskmg emoryu phone fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this just thought of something yes laptops can still be read but it s not quite as easy as a normal pc with a crt my thought airline pilots lately have been complaining about how laptops being used in flight mess with the plane s instruments if this can be hyped up manufacturers may start building laptops with even lower emmisions it would probably still be possible to pick up with surveillance equipment but at this point it would be a lot cheaper to mask the remaining signals with tempest techniques doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re implementing a diffie hellman key exchange you should probably use numbers much larger than bits also you may want to include some randomly generated bitstrings in your protocol this way if someone should find the shared key you and another person use on one day they won t be able to guess it for the next day ie a sends g a mod p and random string r b sends g b mod p and random string r both find g a mod p b mod p shared key then both calculate session key hash r shared key r also you will want to make sure that you re getting the right public key value g a mod p someone with the power to intercept and change messages can oterwise spoof you by sending both of you his public key and then acquiring a session key with each of you john
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	comments on clipper for publication i am writing an article on clipper for network world i am looking for comments and opinions that i can quote on the scheme its implications for security and privacy its acceptance here and overseas etc i hope this to be a balenced article with opinions from various quarters the only catch is that your name and company affiliation will appear in print i am on very tight deadline i need to finish this wednesday night please call or e mail responses thanks bruce
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail in apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address compuserve com ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	a trojan horse on the clipper gentlefolk it seems to me that the step of taking a warrant to the telco to get a wiretap is so much stinky red herring don t you love animal metaphors with each phone broadcasting the serial number of its chip e n f is not syntactically different than n all they have to do is aim a reciever in the general direction of today s target and use the serial number to identify the session they want and get the chip number of the other end of the conversation even without the key this is great for traffic analysis i can think of several ways to learn the right serial number it looks like one intended effect of the clipper is to eliminate the awkward business of getting the telco to cooperate or risking getting caught in the act with your alligator clips erect this is particularly handy if you have s and s btw did anyone explain why they are scrambling the serial number cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jerry han writes guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at only guessing but from his address i d say that jerry like me lives in canada unlike me he thinks that our friends in the us enjoy the same freedom that we do and he has not seen the slow but steady erosion to the south of us we have the benefit of relatively slow politicians and ineffective law enforcement our rednecks tend to be the objects of derision rather than elected officials it s everything le can do to keep up with the real criminals any time they actually go after somebody just because they don t like his or her attitude it s national news it also often blows up in their faces eg the well intentioned but flawed zundel case which resulted in a scolding from the supreme court not only to le for prosecuting the case but to parliament for passing the law it was prosecuted under our friends south of the border don t have as easy a time of it among other things they have as many le agencies as we have agencies and some of them have teeth they also have the war on drugs which gives law enforcement agencies exceptional powers to ignore individuals rights the dea has more arbitrary power than that given to canadian agencies under the war measures act we have the rcmp and csis who can t stop fighting each other long enough to do any really effective suppression of private citizens rights not only that our police commissions have teeth as i learned when i had to fend off a bent cop it may be ironic that the nation founded on life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is getting government imposed order while the nation founded on peace order and good government is getting in your face liberty that s not to say our time won t come it looks like chretien is going to run on a law and order platform be afraid cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article rdippold qualcom ron asbestos dippold writes the only thing that worries me is that compression the soundblaster can do it automatically in hardware but other than that i don t have a good feel for how processor intensive it is so i can t estimate how fast a pc you d need there s a better way doesn t qualcom have a secure design that it decided not to market since they aren t going to use it wouldn t the patriotic thing be to put the design in the public domain how about selling a cryptography educational kit with the critical parts something that could end up as a pc option board with two phone jacks cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr news clarkson edu dwight tuinstra writes great slogan i m ready to sign up with a crypto lobbying effort though i wouldn t want to do it through an nra offshoot shall we also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment looking at it from up here in the frozen north it looks like you could do worse than get the nra involved they have a kindred problem a large number of voters the right attitude and lots of funds from an ethical or constitutional viewpoint i haven t seen a good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn t also support the nra position on guns and vice versa cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jerry han writes a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield y all got the first two reversed judge roy bean
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping but the nsa will not be doing any wiretapping the actual wiretapping will presumably be conducted by the fbi of course the capability for this was provided by the nsa but i think that they are still within the limitations of their charter i realize this is a fine point and some may differ but this is my opinion although i don t care for clipper and won t support or use it i don t see the nsa as having overstepped their bounds david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes no no no no no no no it will go like this feds we need the key to phone re d escrow you have a warrant to tap the line phone re d is on feds yes escrow fine here is our key rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod it also goes like this fed we need to listen into mafia head druglord terrorist bbs sysop s conversations but don t have probable cause for a tap fed who do we have a tap on fed some other enemy of the state fed so get the keys we can always claim that phone s being used on the tapped line there s got to be some way to associate an instrument with an individual or the state effectively has a tap possibly not admissible given the war on drugs exceptions to the ammendments who knows but none the less listenable tap on any phone charles mattair work mattair synercom hounix org standard disclaimer home cgm elmat synercom hounix org in a mature society civil servant is semantically equivalent to civil master robert heinlein the notebooks of lazarus long
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz writes in c jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes looks like you can t be forced to reveal a password if anyone can provide a convincing legal argument to the contrary ie an actual court case i d be most interested this is the case in britain according to the head of the computer crime unit here when i interviewed him a couple of months ago wg wendy m grossman a north avenue kew founder the skeptic uk richmond surrey tw lz freelance writer recovering folksinger
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet hmmm celp takes up about mips for full duplex and has been implemented on about a million dsp chips the card in my pc only cost about and i m sure once demand goes up the prices would drop the analog devices board that we re looking at now cost about academic price i don t think hardware is something to worry about if you get it working people will snap up internet phone cards like there was no tomorrow what we need here is a good implementation of celp the government code is absolute crap i got a speedup after looking at it for a couple of hours and modifications to pgp to allow it to compress decompress bit frames every msec i think the ad should have enough juice for this mips as part of the project i m working on now we re trying to get celp up and running in realtime full duplex mode i gotta find the source to pgp and see how tough it would be to integrate the en decryption parts into the code i ll play with it anyone else out there got an ad setup ed see lidflip instructions on edward hutchins eah cec wustl edu other side of card
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this as anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip it s surprisingly easy too the guy did it with a portable tv with very minor mods it only worked from feet but then it was just a demonstration ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you d like a circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	basic crypto requirements in order to have formulate a rational position on what cryptography policies are acceptable we must set forth a list of basic requirements i would propose the following as a starting point the algorithm must be publicly known and must have a record of surviving attempts by outside experts to find weaknesses the system implementation must make it possible to verify that the advertised algorithm is in fact the one that is being used the key must be quickly changeable by the user and must be of a sufficient length and complexity to defeat any brute force search possible now or in the reasonably near future note that these requirements are not incompatible with some form of key escrow system the may issue of byte describes an example of an encryption system which can clearly be implemented in a manner consistent with the above requirements while requiring that parts of the key be escrowed in order to have one s public key listed by a central distributor
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful yuan scws harvard edu nina yuan writes i m not a lawyer and i don t even play one on tv but intuitively there s something wrong with having one s words archived for possible future use against you this possibility frightens me more than any of the talk about the clipper chip right to cryptography etc i can just imagine it the mother is wheeled into the labour ward after delivery a government agent steps up to read the baby its rights you have the right to remain silent if you give up this right anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you waaaaaaaaah anthony shipman you ve got to be taught before it s too late cp software export pty ltd before you are six or seven or eight cato st east hawthorn to hate all the people your relatives hate melbourne australia you ve got to be carefully taught r h e mail als cpsg com au
sci.crypt	pd code for crypt like encryption i am looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy a marketing need oh yes unix platform jerry natowitz guest user on arpa jin ursa major spdcc com uucp ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc jin
sci.crypt	birthday attack i recently saw a message here posted by bob silverman i think which referred to a birthday attack on a cryptosystem i m looking for references on and explanations of this type of attack thanks paul
sci.crypt	re tempest in apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes as anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip it s surprisingly easy too the guy did it with a portable tv with very minor mods it only worked from feet but then it was just a demonstration a convention for santa claus impersonators please elaborate enquiring minds those in the second and third jars from the left want to know peter
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls quoting dougb ecs comm mot com in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com you would have to use something other than the at t black box in other words i don t think public key would work the session key would have to be agreed upon prior to the conversation and distributed to all sites beforehand why can t one site decide a session key and send it to the other sites by public key encryption o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	re pd code for crypt like encryption in article apr spdcc com jin spdcc com jerry natowitz writes i am looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy a marketing need oh yes unix platform you can find what you re looking for on hundreds of sites worldwide try anonymous ftp to nic funet fi finland pub unix bsd net lib libc gen crypt c z this includes source code for fully functional des encryption and decryption there are some who believe that public domain code is exportable some who don t make your own judgements but it seems obvious to me regards ed hamrick
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the fact that the nsa is listening may affect your willingness to use wimpy crypto technologies but it may also affect your willingness to use technologies that violate rsa s patents e g if you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you re doing so and if the secret service catches on i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals that includes the fbi and secrect service although there have been rare exceptions
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography jgfoot minerva cis yale edu josh a goldfoot writes tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff s public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don t care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff s position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain well regardless of what policy liabilities anyone in washington may think eff has it is going ahead aggressively attacking the assumptions that are behind the administrations clipper chip initiative for all the reasons stated here in washington you have to work under the assumption that everyone has some liabilities government and non governmental organizations alike all share the same glass house eff is variously identified as the hacker defense fund the first amendment absolutists the new communists etc but it is also an acknowledged leader in the civil liberties arena and is respected as a serious player in the policy circles so unless there is another organization with the credibility and clout and right policy stance that you know of in washington please don t count eff out as a valid representative of your views in the clipper chip matter cliff figallo fig eff org eff online guy
sci.crypt	re pgp where to get it at the moment pgp is available in executable format for ms dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep a copy although the mac version is getting hard to find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp for those with out ftp access try nitv bbs see sig i have the following all from nic funet fi garbo uwasa fi sony com and ftp uni erlangen de platform execs source patch src xtras bbs file area fido freqname dos x x x login pgpdos pgpsdos mac x x nonibm pgpmac pgpsmac amiga x nonibm pgpami archimedes x nonibm pgparc os x win pgpos next x nonibm pgpnxt unix x x nonibm pgpunx haven t looked in the archive to see if it has source or not usually because i can t handle the format for fidonet freq magic names the pgps names are source code others are either execs or execs src extras or in the case of next just a patch you still need one of the full source code packages nitv bbs is free this is not an ad it is a public service announcement testes saxi solidi podex opacus gravedinosus est stanton mccandlish sysop noise in the void data center bbs indranet fidonet internet anton hydra unm edu data phone hr v bis n
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce i have that book and the way i read it is one side of the conversation must be from outside the united states of coures that ass u mes that the nsa plays by the rules jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace we had a senior nsa scientist in cambridge at one of our workshops recently in fact he was here when the clipper announcement was made but we didn t learn of it till after he d gone he said on this point that he was forbidden by law to monitor conversations between us nationals and he is a chap who is very precise about his choice of words so i don t expect he d have any qualms about monitoring a domestic us conversation if one of the parties was an alien however it got me thinking of the navajo code talkers just imagine hello is that the iraqi mission in new york this is the iraqi foreign ministry in baghdad i am farouq hussein us citizen social security number so and so yes indeed this is the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also a us citizen my social security number is such and such here is our report on activities against the satan clinton ross this one is easy they tape the conversation call the fbi or secret service you see activities against the satan clinton could be construed as a threat against the president of the united states i am sure they nsa fbi ss have enough judges in their collective pockets to have a warrent before the call is over jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in c rt bc chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland you would be arrested as an international arms trafficker there are several things in itar which have never been tested in court the concensus appears to be you could be arrested as an international arms trafficker you could regardless of the state of the law but there are some paragraphs which suggest you would be violating the law if it goes to court the itars could be thrown out is incompatible with the first amendment or the court could rule that software is technical data not subject to the itars or the court could rule that the phrase publicly available as defined in the itars would apply making it only subject to requiring a general export license or you could be prosecuted successfully for arms trafficing or espionage general concensus among lawyers who have read the itars is that one of the first two would occur arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article strnlghtc ka ifd netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes brad yearwood posts a long response to the issue of registering a phone clipper relationship it doesn t wash recall that law enforcement gets a court order to tap a suspect s phone calls they do what they do now figure out which lines to tap they then record the stuff if it s clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order no new difficulties such as using someone else s phone instrument or phone line are introduced that wouldn t have existed absent clipper if the crooks were going to use a pay phone say they could have done so without clipper if the government figures out they re so doing they listen in and if it s a clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct depends on whether the filler is a constant makes checking easy but susceptible to replay or variable e g timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make it easier for the inquisitors to know if they ve missed messages or gotten them out of sequence or other interesting things that sort of person might care about i d use a secret nope obscure cryptographic encoding to expand the bit serial number to a bit block the redundancy hereby introduced can be used to detect tampered clipper signals where some public enemy replaced the l e block by random data and of course the l e block would be used to initialise the encryption of the user data so that at the receiving end the correct l e block must be processed in order to have any chance of getting the plaintext back for those of you who might want to mangle the l e block e g by xor ing a constant pattern on the transmission line and restore it before feeding it into the receiving crippler chip i would add further encrypted copies of this block perhaps created by repeated application of the encryption algorithm or so at regular intervals during the transmission if the receiving chip detects a mismatch it must assume that the line is bad and it will cease to work in your own interest you are protected from getting faulty plaintext you know it s just like a checksum for your own safety the monitoring agencies won t have the famous black box which is needed for actual decryption and will be kept by the fbi but nothing prevents them from using special boxes which will do the redundancy check for the serial number block and consistency checks on the embedded l e blocks within the transmission these boxes will turn a red light on as soon as they detect a bitstream that violates the correct protocol so don t anyone think that you can use the chip and fool l e about the tapping key i bet the developpers have provided much better checks than those suggested above of course it s absolutely crucial that the algorithms and protocols remain secret personally i doubt they will detlef lannert dc ek e mail tsos rz uni duesseldorf de pgp key via server or finger lannert clio rz uni duesseldorf de i am psmith oh you re smith are you with a preliminary p which however is not sounded p g wodehouse
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r m enn news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes compuserve is in columbus oh so are the corporate headquarters of several major insurance companies the largest private r d company in the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one of the three largest us universities oclc the online college library center and so on you d be amazed actually don t forget chemical abstracts service which is pretty much the international clearinghouse for all chemical information whose former director ronald wigington and head of r d nick farmer were openly former nsa employees james parker jap cb focus att com
sci.crypt	summary how sensible is des towards bit errors hi i d like to thank you all for the fast responses special thanks go to those who replied lexical order marcus j ranum mjr tis com paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk pausch saaf se paul schlyter tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart my question was how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key how much of the des encrypted data is affected depends on the used encryption mode according to marcus j ranum mjr tis com there is cfb cipher feedback mode ecb electronic code book mode cbc cipher block chaining mode ofb output feedback mode each mode does some stuff better than others ofb and cfb are designed for communications streams more than for files unfortunally people strongly disagree which mode will lead to destruction of all of the following data sure seems that some modes will resync quite fast others will never others will even only effect the very block summarized people said concerning this matter in cbc mode only the current block will be affected tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold if you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder of the data will be destroyed as well pausch saaf se paul schlyter in cfb mode des synchronizes quite fast probably within block according to maracus j ranum mjr tis com maybe someone definitely knows what happens in which mode nevertheless thank you all very much again axel dunkel i include the responses i got from tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold in ad cat axel dunkel writes how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using for a single bit input block a one bit error will have a percent chance of corrupting each of the output bits in other words it essentially turns the output block into a random number if you re encrypting data in cbc mode however only the one bit block will be affected the next block and all that follow it will be decrypted properly it s a good idea to have some kind of error correction in your system if corrupted bits are likely todd from pausch saaf se paul schlyter in article ad cat you write hello how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key at least bytes of data will be destroyed if one bit encrypted data is in error if you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder of the data will be destroyed as well des is very seisitive for single bit errors this is as it should be paul schlyter swedish amateur astronomer s society saaf nybrogatan a tr s stockholm sweden internet pausch saaf se from paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key probably very bad you might lose the rest of the data stream if you want safety against dropped bits use an error correcting coder like the freeware gnu ecc o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus from wcs anchor ho att com how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using des in electronic code book ecb takes a block of input bits and produces output bits so if any bits are changed the entire block of bits becomes bad i forget which feedback mode is which in all of them the results of encrypting one block affect later blocks with some modes the system self synchronizes so errors are repaired in a few blocks with other modes once one block is bad all later blocks will be bad too there s also the framing problem if you have a bit change the block that it s in changes and maybe later blocks also change but if you have bits lost or bits added bits in or bits out everything is confused after that from marcus j ranum mjr tis com depends on the mode you re using cfb for example synchronises pretty fast figure a bit error will destroy the current block and the next one mjr experience is what you get if you don t get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse d kriftel germany e mail ad cat de voice fax
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad optilink com brad yearwood writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow big deal if you are a legitimate law enforcement agent and have a legitimate wiretap order you just listen in on the line for minutes get the serial number and then take the order and go to the escrow agencies if you notice the criminal is now using a different phone instrument take your still valid wiretap order to the escrow agency with the new serial number this provides opportunities for abuse by law enforcement but thats not what we are discussing right now i oppose clipper but the mechanics here are simple and easy to understand the whole rest of your article is based on a large series of false premises all predicated on the notion that this simple act is somehow impossible i feel free to presume to tell you that you do not seem to understand the mechanics of the proposal arguing that terrorists will be killing people for their clipper phones is silly because its pointless lets be alarmist about what really would show up as a problem shall we perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand i never advocated hiding in the sand i m advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible unless you want blood on your hands no one has mentioned violence other than you mr han i believe you are imagining things perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail in article apr esseye si com jongsma tws si com writes in apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address compuserve com however he said on his radio show today that he won t read anything from the two alt groups he simply deletes them without reading them he says that some of the people in the two groups are vicious ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes some deleted unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce i have that book and the way i read it is one side of the conversation must be from outside the united states of coures that ass u mes that the nsa plays by the rules one thing that seems ambiguous is whether a signal being echoed down from geosynchronous orbit is from outside the united states also being able to assess whether nsa is playing by the rules requires knowing what the rules are we only know a subset for those even more suspicious there could be other surveillance organizations blacker than the nsa bryan l allen bryan devvax jpl nasa gov telos corp jpl
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security of the system does depend only on the secrecy of the keys the ability to tap is an inherent insecurity which depends fundamentally on the secrecy of the algorithm to spell it out because so many people seem to miss the point if the algorithm were published anyone could create a chip which would work correctly with the skipjack chips but which would not have its key registered i believe there is no technical means of ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining a secret of some kind for example the secret could be the private keys of the escrow agencies their digital signatures would be required before a key could be used in this case the nsa nist whoever has decided that protecting the entire algorithm is easier cheaper more secure than other possible protocols kian tat lim ktl wag caltech edu genie k lim materials molecular simulation center caltech henry spencer left of margaret puckette signature fan
sci.crypt	help where is faq for sci crypt and other questions dear netters i have been scanning this news group for a while but has not found a faq could someone enlight me where to find the faq if there is a one also could someone recommend a few good books about encription and decription about patent information goverment regulation on this science technology i will appreciate any of your help very much sincerely bi chen
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article allen well sf ca us allen well sf ca us allen barrett ethridge writes in apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps thanks got that from two other sources as well the full quote is as follows from dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the enciphering and deciphering transformations must be efficient for all keys the system must be easy to use the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of algorithms e enciphering or d deciphering mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born at pm in cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge a new citizen of the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article c y k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote as a private citizen i would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever congress isn t forced to do anything not even follow their own rules if it isn t expedient if caught with their collective pants down they make some funny noises perhaps crucify a skapegoat or two then continue business as usual i notice those senators involved with the s l scandal weren t hurt too much if at all deconcini s personal stake in suppliers to those big aerostats hasn t affected his credibility at all inside congress at least he is still pushing his police state agenda the problem is that laws can change congress may pass a law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had a clipper system do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid court order it will be like the old saw in new jersey and new york chicago etc when the politicians promised that this spiffy new gun registration law will not be used for future confiscation purposes sure enough a few years later when they were used just for that purpose and folks complained the response was well i didn t make that promise some politicians may not even wait a few years escrowed keys would have the same assurances of security besides if someone wants to snoop how are you to know you don t think they will send you a letter saying we are now snooping on your private conversations do you what are the assurances the escrow people will not be forbidden to report any access attempts for one s keys so much for government assurances of privacy in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through a court challenge how the feds will just change the law or just ignore it nothing new here they got the muscle the resources the guns as an aside since export of crypto is verboten because of itar shouldn t the second amendment also come into play here john eaton hp vcd johne pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article warlord apr podge mit edu warlord mit edu derek atkins writes in article strnlghtc t d jn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear i believe the u s does without a license the above scheme won t work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the u s david bzzt wrong the us does not have crypto import laws i d not be so sure about that are there any munitions import laws and could those be used against importation of crypto hardware software as well as firearms importing so called assault weapons for use by commoners come to mind note talk politics guns added to newsgroups for possible feedback pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes no one has mentioned violence other than you mr han i believe you are imagining things this is factually incorrect there was at least one message that said that waco and clipper justified anything in response david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	how to make this illuminating thing in some hobby shop they sell a flexible tube inch diameter inch ling that will illuminate if you bend or shake it it is also sold in amusement parks in the evenings the brightness can last to hours if it is left in refrigrator in coldness you can prolong its life of illumination is this something we can make ourself easily or do you know any reading can provide details about this stuff working with kids it would be nice if it can be a do it yourself project with minimum budget
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article c xxga gav ms uky edu morgan engr uky edu wes morgan writes you should realize that form letters are the worst way to influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder if you want to write and i think you should take the time to really write a letter things to emphasize excellent and helpful list deleted be concise don t ramble rants are definitely out of place cite references if necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals my neighbor jim is not a real refer ence wes s list is of do s and don t s for writing your congressional representatives is a fine one but i d like to encourage people to pay extra attention to the point above as cliched as the saying may be it s nevertheless true that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar while the writing styles prevalent on the net possess a certain charm please remember that the person reading your letter is likely to be uninfluenced or negatively influenced if you express your concerns in a way that makes you sound like a flake or a paranoid crackpot wild and unsupported accusations about the menace from the nsa will not carry much weight nor are overblown conclusions about the inevitable consequences of the proposal likely to convince especially not ones that attempt strained analogies to the rise of the nazi party please save the niemoller quote for another letter if you want your opinions to be taken seriously it is very important that you state those opinions in a manner that is understandable and seems reasonable to a layman don t overburden your reader with technical details or expect them to know the history of various encryption technologies before you mail it hand your letter to a non technical friend and ask them to sanity check it above all realize that legislators are often motivated as much by self interest as by anything else try to point out risks in terms that will be meaningful and motivating to them such as the loss of individual privacy rights or the damage restrictive export regulations do to american businesses ability to compete in the global marketplace pull the strings that you think will work with your legislator if your legislator is unlikely to be swayed by civil rights concerns then point out how a government granted monopoly for mycotronx damages the competitiveness of businesses in your district that manufacture or market phone or crypto technology mcnally
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens and thus cointelpro in which horrible people who threatened the republic by disagreeing with the government were systematically kept track of for years perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	forbidden to reveal wiretap if it s forbidden to inform someone of a police wiretap on their phone then is it legal to work privtely as a sweeper and report to the person you work for whether you found a bug
sci.crypt	clipper and backdoors david sternlight says it discredits the writer with third parties to claim clipper has a back door it does not actually david i don t think it s any more intellectually honest to say there are no backdoors than to say there are backdoors unless you ve had a chance to examine the algorithm and the silicon closely for all we know skipjack could be easily broken or impossible to break and clearly if skipjack is not secure then the clipper chip is not worth much john kelsey
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful sternlight writes gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have if prof denning is afraid of posting here due to personal attacks perhaps she should use an anonymous posting service that is why they are there to allow heated debate to occur without the personal attacks is anon penet back up yet thomas
sci.crypt	re subliminal channels in dss may i suggest that any any proposed cipher system having less entropy than the user s key and message can have an embedded subliminal channel as big as the difference in entropies between the entropy of the user input message and the entropy of the output for example take plain des the unsuspecting user inputs a string plaintext to be enciphered he cranks the algorithm which has been hacked by george quisling and comes out with j h d nine char in and nine chars out right the unsepecting user ships the ciphertext to be decrpyted and the message plaintext is produced everything fine right nope imagine the algorithm did a lz compression on plaintext before desing compressing is down to four characters with more entropy wj the opponent now pads the message with his own message also compressed dk before applying des to the concatenated compressed pairs when decrpyted the first compressed message is stripped off and declared sent unbeknowst to the receiver the opponents accomplice collects the remaining message in the bit bucket and uncompresses to kill now and to prevent all such subliminal or covert storage channels you would need to have maximal entropy all the time which is a priori impossible because for example a stereotypical message might be replaced by one bit in the output reserving the rest of the output bits for the long covert message in other words if you opponent get to muck with the algorithm you either have got to muck with it last or concede his possible embedding of covert channels in other words if you present a message to an opponet with less than maximal entropy then you have given him free bits of storage grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re my letter about clipper david reeve sward sward cmu edu writes we don t know this do we the algorithm is classified i speculate from the mykotronx data sheet on the myk that the algorithm is a classified cryptosystem similar in application to des but cleared by the nsa for classified traffic that has been in use for a number of years myktotronx refers to it as government type ii encryption which matches the designation of one of the types of encryption available on stu iii phones and may be the same as a cryptosystem i have heard called cipher this would make sense since this is evidently a field proven cryptosystem which can act as a pin compatible substitute for des combined with a tappable key exchange protocol this would offer exactly what is claimed for clipper secure encryption with access via a key escrow if this is fact the case it would make me quite confident of the encipherment algorithm itself now i do not know if these are in fact the same cryptosystem my knowledge of classified cryptography isn t even fuzzy it s nonexistent however it would certainly have been the least effort approach on the part of the government take an old military cipher that people can drop in place of des and which is at least as secure set up a key escrow scheme for law enforcement and promote it for public use this also fits with mykotronx who s been around but almost invisible for years has anyone else made this sort of connection or am i just hallucinating pink elephants here my curiousity has been piqued amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re re re clipper chip from article cyberia win net by johnston cyberia win net robert johnston encryption technologies are currently reguarded as arms by the feds hence the export ban while the second is under enough attack for guarrentteing our rights to fire arms perhaps we should reflect on this as well perhaps fire arms are not the only weapons covered under the second amendment hmmm i wouldn t consider encryption to be a weapon how would the government classify encryption seems to me that encryption ought to be covered by the first amendment using this line of reasoning the government shouldn t be able to restrict what data people encrypt and what encryption algorithms they use because this would be restricting one s freedom of speech in other words encrypted data text graphics or other information is just another form of free speech for this reason the government shouldn t be able to regulate the use of encryption algorithms and encrypted data the only time the government should be able to force someone to reveal his or her encryption keys for some encrypted data is when the encrypted data in question may be something that isn t protected by the first amendment such as kiddy porn even in a case like this the government should be required to get a search warrant before coercing someone into revealing the keys btw what encryption methods are considered to be state of the art nowdays have the feds relaxed export restrictions on des yet also is des still regarded as a good form of encryption robert johnston johonston cyberia win net scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me batf cigarette cops fbi fuehrer s bureau of incineration
sci.crypt	clipper chip reverse engineering i have been looking over the postings about the clipper chip and noticed an interesting omission from the discussion you all mention that the algorithm is classified and have expressed concerns and ideas of how to figure out the algorithm using software the question that i have is why cant someone take one of these chips and reverse engineer it i mean take the thing to a chip testing analysis facility one with a decent electron microscope just pry off the top of the chip and start scanning it with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry i remembered a place that i use to work for had one of these facilities that they used to analyze chips that we accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show us where in the circuit it was i am sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential is there especially at a university where the security at such a facility is looser for someone to take a clipper apart and analyze it what can the government do to prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes mark
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one dear senator congressman president fill in the blank i am writing you to voice my strong opposition to president clinton s clipper chip initiative this proposal to establish a secret government designed cryptography chip with government key registration as the standard for voice encryption is very disturbing the idea that citizens must register their secrets with the government just in case they are trying to keep them secret is patently unamerican additionally the press release for this program strongly implied that other forms of cryptography would be banned after the clipper chip standard is in place this latest attack on our civil rights is deeply disturbing and is frankly a voting issue for me the presidents press release stated that the plan strikes a balance between the legitimate needs of law enforcement and a citizens right to privacy but this is not the case the fact is that since other strong cryptographic equipment is avalible the criminals drug dealers and terrorists mentioned in the press release will simply use non clipper cryptography meanwhile the average citizen may gain no protection against warentless wiretaps by the government since the government escrowed key is derived deterministicly from the unit serial number which is broadcast by the chip durring its opperation this seems like an obvious back door for the nsa and law enforcement if you still do nott understand my objection to key registration consider the way j edgar hoover blackmailed government officials like yourself would you now use a phone to transmit personal details of your life that the nsa and fbi have the keys to well heres a letter i didnt spell check it since i dont know how in emacs so you might want to do that bill smythe
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c el i rahul net dhesi rahul net rahul dhesi writes in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it the answer to your second question lies in the way you phrased the first one the media is the medis isn t is the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands of publications some say this some say that how can the bulk of the people be informed when they won t read informative publications because much of the public aren t even aware of the names of informative publications look at the wealth of material on the typical newsstand unless the person is working in some kind of technical environment with the usual trade journals all they ever see is the media note media in this context is the popular media tv radio daily newspapers and such publications as time newsweek and all that and they all say pretty much the same thing i see most of them being in the range of center left to far left and generally supportive of pie in sky we will take care of you think for you cradle to grave there seems to be an air of arrogance that the individual is not capable of understanding major issues so the media doesn t bother to inform them as with clipper for example or tells the people how to interpret events in others what is lost sight of is that the people are not good at understanding things because they are not told accurate information about them it is a lot to expect of the people for them to be clarirvoyant for example i would have been unaware of clipper had i not picked it up on usenet how much of the population has usenet let alone internet access for access to better publications the person has to spend time digging many folks especially who work long hours have families etc do not have time to go digging and many are not yet aware things are wrong so are not motivated to dig not saying its right just saying that is the way things are people aren t upset about things when they aren t told and the less than objective media is a major contributer to the problem and then compound that with an attitude of arrogance in the civil service bureaucrats politicians that act as if the person without political connections or deep pockets potential contributer should have few if any rights being a resource to be used by those in control for their polticial or financial gain some law enforcement agencies act as if they regard the common person with a rather intense degree of contempt peons that are supposed to do what they are told and get very nasty when someone questions them the media pundits editors etc tend to fall into those with privilege and tend to not be upset by the current state of affairs the fellow in dc who shot the swimmer in his jacuzzi for daring to swim in it with an illegally owned gun violating the law he pushed to be foisted on everyone else ends up walking where a less well connected person would have been crucified a typical example of one standard for us a much more restrictive standard for other folk perhaps i am not real eloquent in expressing this but the solution sure as hell is not to make it harder for people to find out what is going on or dismiss their concerns because one happens to be in a position where one feels they are exempt or insulated such as that hypocrite of a journalist in dc described above one notices that these less than complimentary points about that double standard was not covered in the media i feel the reason was it dovetailed with their political views on the subject and it involved a brother journalist isn t it time for our objective media the main source of info for the average person to start being what they claim to be instead of spin doctors for the statist elements rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article strnlghtc dx zn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have are you in contact with her is that what she said or what you think her reason is also could it be possible that she is not replying because she has no reply that wouldn t confirm the worst suspicions if the suspicions are way out of pocket one would think the person would be in there saying so and indicating why they are out of pocket hiding behind a veil of secrecy is not reassuring pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	from crossbows to cryptography begin pgp signed message please note that the following speech was made by chuck hammill in address all letters to his address given at the end of this document russell from crossbows to cryptography thwarting the state via technology given at the future of freedom conference november you know technology and particularly computer technology has often gotten a bad rap in libertarian cir cles we tend to think of orwell s or terry gilliam s brazil or the proximity detectors keeping east berlin s slave citizens on their own side of the border or the so phisticated bugging devices nixon used to harass those on his enemies list or we recognize that for the price of a ticket on the concorde we can fly at twice the speed of sound but only if we first walk thru a magnetometer run by a government policeman and permit him to paw thru our be longings if it beeps but i think that mind set is a mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology to oppress the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools in fact technology represents one of the most promis ing avenues available for re capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them by its very nature it favors the bright who can put it to use over the dull who can not it favors the adaptable who are quick to see the merit of the new over the sluggish who cling to time tested ways and what two better words are there to de scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish one of the clearest classic triumphs of technology over tyranny i see is the invention of the man portable crossbow with it an untrained peasant could now reliably and lethally engage a target out to fifty meters even if that target were a mounted chain mailed knight unlike the longbow which admittedly was more powerful and could get off more shots per unit time the crossbow required no formal training to utilize whereas the longbow required elaborate visual tactile and kinesthetic coordination to achieve any degree of accuracy the wielder of a crossbow could simply put the weapon to his shoulder sight along the arrow itself and be reasonably assured of hitting his tar get moreover since just about the only mounted knights likely to visit your average peasant would be government soldiers and tax collectors the utility of the device was plain with it the common rabble could defend themselves not only against one another but against their governmental masters it was the medieval equivalent of the armor piercing bullet and consequently kings and priests the medieval equivalent of a bureau of alcohol tobacco and crossbows threatened death and excommunication respec tively for its unlawful possession looking at later developments we see how technology like the firearm particularly the repeating rifle and the handgun later followed by the gatling gun and more advanced machine guns radically altered the balance of interpersonal and inter group power not without reason was the colt called the equalizer a frail dance hall hostess with one in her possession was now fully able to protect herself against the brawniest roughneck in any saloon advertise ments for the period also reflect the merchandising of the repeating cartridge rifle by declaring that a man on horseback armed with one of these rifles simply cannot be captured and as long as his captors were relying upon flintlocks or single shot rifles the quote is doubtless a true one updating now to the present the public key cipher with a personal computer to run it represents an equiv alent quantum leap in a defensive weapon not only can such a technique be used to protect sensitive data in one s own possession but it can also permit two strangers to ex change information over an insecure communications channel a wiretapped phone line for example or skywriting for that matter without ever having previously met to exchange cipher keys with a thousand dollar com puter you can create a cipher that a multi megabuck cray x mp can t crack in a year within a few years it should be economically feasible to similarly encrypt voice communi cations soon after that full color digitized video images technology will not only have made wiretapping obsolete it will have totally demolished government s control over in formation transfer i d like to take just a moment to sketch the mathemat ics which makes this principle possible this algorithm is called the rsa algorithm after rivest shamir and adleman who jointly created it its security derives from the fact that if a very large number is the product of two very large primes then it is extremely difficult to obtain the two prime factors from analysis of their product ex tremely in the sense that if primes p and q have digits apiece then their digit product cannot in gen eral be factored in less than years by the most powerful computer now in existence the public part of the key consists of the prod uct pq of the two large primes p and q and one fac tor call it x of the product xy where xy p q the private part of the key consists of the other factor y each block of the text to be encrypted is first turned into an integer either by using ascii or even a simple a b c z representation this integer is then raised to the power x modulo pq and the resulting integer is then sent as the encrypted message the receiver decrypts by taking this integer to the secret power y modulo pq it can be shown that this process will always yield the original number started with what makes this a groundbreaking development and why it is called public key cryptography is that i can openly publish the product pq and the number x while keeping secret the number y so that anyone can send me an encrypted message namely x a mod pq but only i can recover the original message a by taking what they send raising it to the power y and taking the result mod pq the risky step meeting to exchange cipher keys has been eliminated so people who may not even trust each other enough to want to meet may still reliably ex change encrypted messages each party having selected and disseminated his own pq and his x while maintaining the secrecy of his own y another benefit of this scheme is the notion of a dig ital signature to enable one to authenticate the source of a given message normally if i want to send you a message i raise my plaintext a to your x and take the result mod your pq and send that however if in my message i take the plaintext a and raise it to my secret power y take the result mod my pq then raise that result to your x mod your pq and send this then even after you have normally decrypted the message it will still look like garbage however if you then raise it to my public power x and take the result mod my public pq so you will not only recover the ori ginal plaintext message but you will know that no one but i could have sent it to you since no one else knows my secret y and these are the very concerns by the way that are to day tormenting the soviet union about the whole question of personal computers on the one hand they recognize that american schoolchildren are right now growing up with com puters as commonplace as sliderules used to be more so in fact because there are things computers can do which will interest and instruct and year olds and it is pre cisely these students who one generation hence will be going head to head against their soviet counterparts for the soviets to hold back might be a suicidal as continuing to teach swordsmanship while your adversaries are learning ballistics on the other hand whatever else a personal computer may be it is also an exquisitely efficient copying machine a floppy disk will hold upwards of words of text and can be copied in a couple of minutes if this weren t threatening enough the computer that performs the copy can also encrypt the data in a fashion that is all but unbreakable remember that in soviet society publicly ac cessible xerox machines are unknown the relatively few copying machines in existence are controlled more inten sively than machine guns are in the united states now the conservative position is that we should not sell these computers to the soviets because they could use them in weapons systems the liberal position is that we should sell them in the interests of mutual trade and cooperation and anyway if we don t make the sale there will certainly be some other nation willing to for my part i m ready to suggest that the libertarian position should be to give them to the soviets for free and if necessary make them take them and if that doesn t work load up an sr blackbird and air drop them over moscow in the middle of the night paid for by private sub scription of course not taxation i confess that this is not a position that has gained much support among members of the conventional left right political spectrum but af ter all in the words of one of illuminatus s characters we are political non euclideans the shortest distance to a particular goal may not look anything like what most people would consider a straight line taking a long enough world view it is arguable that breaking the soviet govern ment monopoly on information transfer could better lead to the enfeeblement and indeed to the ultimate dissolution of the soviet empire than would the production of another dozen missiles aimed at moscow but there s the rub a long enough world view does suggest that the evil the oppressive the coercive and the simply stupid will get what they deserve but what s not immediately clear is how the rest of us can escape being killed enslaved or pauperized in the process when the liberals and other collectivists began to at tack freedom they possessed a reasonably stable healthy functioning economy and almost unlimited time to proceed to hamstring and dismantle it a policy of political gradualism was at least conceivable but now we have patchwork crazy quilt economy held together by baling wire and spit the state not only taxes us to feed the poor while also inducing farmers to slaughter milk cows and drive up food prices it then simultaneously turns around and sub sidizes research into agricultural chemicals designed to in crease yields of milk from the cows left alive or witness the fact that a decline in the price of oil is considered as potentially frightening as a comparable increase a few years ago when the price went up we were told the economy risked collapse for for want of energy the price increase was called the moral equivalent of war and the feds swung into action for the first time in american history the speed at which you drive your car to work in the morning be came an issue of federal concern now when the price of oil drops again we risk problems this time because ameri can oil companies and third world basket case nations who sell oil may not be able to ever pay their debts to our grossly over extended banks the suggested panacea is that government should now re raise the oil prices that opec has lowered via a new oil tax since the government is seeking to raise oil prices to about the same extent as opec did what can we call this except the moral equivalent of civil war the government against its own people and classically in international trade can you imag ine any entity in the world except a government going to court claiming that a vendor was selling it goods too cheaply and demanding not only that that naughty vendor be compelled by the court to raise its prices but also that it be punished for the act of lowering them in the first place so while the statists could afford to take a couple of hundred years to trash our economy and our liberties we certainly cannot count on having an equivalent period of stability in which to reclaim them i contend that there exists almost a black hole effect in the evolution of nation states just as in the evolution of stars once free dom contracts beyond a certain minimum extent the state warps the fabric of the political continuum about itself to the degree that subsequent re emergence of freedom becomes all but impossible a good illustration of this can be seen in the area of so called welfare payments when those who sup at the public trough outnumber and thus outvote those whose taxes must replenish the trough then what possible choice has a democracy but to perpetuate and expand the tak ing from the few for the unearned benefit of the many go down to the nearest welfare office find just two people on the dole and recognize that between them they form a voting bloc that can forever outvote you on the question of who owns your life and the fruits of your life s labor so essentially those who love liberty need an edge of some sort if we re ultimately going to prevail we obvi ously can t use the altruists other directedness of work slave suffer sacrifice so that next generation of a billion random strangers can live in a better world recognize that however immoral such an appeal might be it is nonetheless an extremely powerful one in today s culture if you can convince people to work energetically for a cause caring only enough for their personal welfare so as to remain alive enough and healthy enough to continue working then you have a truly massive reservoir of energy to draw from equally clearly this is just the sort of ap peal which tautologically cannot be utilized for egoistic or libertarian goals if i were to stand up before you tonight and say something like listen follow me as i enunciate my noble cause contribute your money to support the cause give up your free time to work for the cause strive selflessly to bring it about and then after you and your children are dead maybe your children s children will actu ally live under egoism you d all think i d gone mad and of course you d be right because the point i m trying to make is that libertarianism and or egoism will be spread if when and as individual libertarians and or egoists find it profitable and or enjoyable to do so and probably only then while i certainly do not disparage the concept of poli tical action i don t believe that it is the only nor even necessarily the most cost effective path toward increasing freedom in our time consider that for a fraction of the investment in time money and effort i might expend in try ing to convince the state to abolish wiretapping and all forms of censorship i can teach every libertarian who s in terested how to use cryptography to abolish them unilaterally there is a maxim a proverb generally attributed to the eskimoes which very likely most libertarians have al ready heard and while you likely would not quarrel with the saying you might well feel that you ve heard it often enough already and that it has nothing further to teach us and moreover that maybe you re even tired of hearing it i shall therefore repeat it now if you give a man a fish the saying runs you feed him for a day but if you teach a man how to fish you feed him for a lifetime your exposure to the quote was probably in some sort of a workfare vs welfare context namely that if you genuinely wish to help someone in need you should teach him how to earn his sustenance not simply how to beg for it and of course this is true if only because the next time he is hungry there might not be anybody around willing or even able to give him a fish whereas with the information on how to fish he is completely self sufficient but i submit that this exhausts only the first order content of the quote and if there were nothing further to glean from it i would have wasted your time by citing it again after all it seems to have almost a crypto altruist slant as though to imply that we should structure our ac tivities so as to maximize the benefits to such hungry beggars as we may encounter but consider suppose this eskimo doesn t know how to fish but he does know how to hunt walruses you on the other hand have often gone hungry while traveling thru walrus country because you had no idea how to catch the damn things and they ate most of the fish you could catch and now suppose the two of you decide to exchange information bartering fishing knowledge for hunting knowledge well the first thing to observe is that a transaction of this type categorically and unambiguously refutes the marxist premise that every trade must have a winner and a loser the idea that if one person gains it must necessarily be at the expense of another person who loses clearly under this scenario such is not the case each party has gained some thing he did not have before and neither has been dimin ished in any way when it comes to exchange of information rather than material objects life is no longer a zero sum game this is an extremely powerful notion the law of diminishing returns the first and second laws of thermodynamics all those laws which constrain our possi bilities in other contexts no longer bind us now that s anarchy or consider another possibility suppose this hungry eskimo never learned to fish because the ruler of his nation state had decreed fishing illegal because fish contain dangerous tiny bones and sometimes sharp spines he tells us the state has decreed that their consumption and even their possession are too hazardous to the people s health to be permitted even by knowledgeable willing adults perhaps it is because citizens bodies are thought to be government property and therefore it is the function of the state to punish those who improperly care for govern ment property or perhaps it is because the state gener ously extends to competent adults the benefits it provides to children and to the mentally ill namely a full time all pervasive supervisory conservatorship so that they need not trouble themselves with making choices about behavior thought physically risky or morally naughty but in any case you stare stupefied while your eskimo informant re lates how this law is taken so seriously that a friend of his was recently imprisoned for years for the crime of pos session of nine ounces of trout with intent to distribute now you may conclude that a society so grotesquely oppressive as to enforce a law of this type is simply an affront to the dignity of all human beings you may go far ther and decide to commit some portion of your discretion ary recreational time specifically to the task of thwarting this tyrant s goal your rationale may be altruistic in the sense of wanting to liberate the oppressed or egoistic in the sense of proving you can outsmart the oppressor or very likely some combination of these or per haps even other motives but since you have zero desire to become a martyr to your cause you re not about to mount a military campaign or even try to run a boatload of fish through the blockade however it is here that technology and in particular in formation technology can multiply your efficacy literally a hundredfold i say literally because for a fraction of the effort and virtually none of the risk attendant to smuggling in a hundred fish you can quite readily produce a hundred xerox copies of fishing instructions if the tar geted government like present day america at least permits open discussion of topics whose implementation is re stricted then that should suffice but if the government attempts to suppress the flow of information as well then you will have to take a little more effort and perhaps write your fishing manual on a floppy disk encrypted according to your mythical eskimo s public key parameters but as far as increasing real world access to fish you have made genuine nonzero headway which may continue to snowball as others re disseminate the information you have provided and you have not had to waste any of your time trying to convert id eological adversaries or even trying to win over the unde cided recall harry browne s dictum from freedom in an unfree world that the success of any endeavor is in general inversely proportional to the number of people whose persua sion is necessary to its fulfilment if you look at history you cannot deny that it has been dramatically shaped by men with names like washington lincoln nixon marcos duvalier khadaffi and their ilk but it has also been shaped by people with names like edison curie marconi tesla and wozniak and this latter shaping has been at least as per vasive and not nearly so bloody and that s where i m trying to take the libertech project rather than beseeching the state to please not en slave plunder or constrain us i propose a libertarian net work spreading the technologies by which we may seize freedom for ourselves but here we must be a bit careful while it is not at present illegal to encrypt information when government wants to spy on you there is no guarantee of what the fu ture may hold there have been bills introduced for exam ple which would have made it a crime to wear body armor when government wants to shoot you that is if you were to commit certain crimes while wearing a kevlar vest then that fact would constitute a separate federal crime of its own this law to my knowledge has not passed yet but it does indicate how government thinks other technological applications however do indeed pose legal risks we recognize for example that anyone who helped a pre civil war slave escape on the underground railroad was making a clearly illegal use of technology as the sovereign government of the united states of america at that time found the buying and selling of human beings quite as acceptable as the buying and selling of cattle simi larly during prohibition anyone who used his bathtub to ferment yeast and sugar into the illegal psychoactive drug alcohol the controlled substance wine was using technol ogy in a way that could get him shot dead by federal agents for his crime unfortunately not to be restored to life when congress reversed itself and re permitted use of this drug so to quote a former president un indicted co conspirator and pardoned felon let me make one thing perfectly clear the libertech project does not advocate participate in or conspire in the violation of any law no matter how oppressive unconstitutional or simply stupid such law may be it does engage in description for educa tional and informational purposes only of technological processes and some of these processes like flying a plane or manufacturing a firearm may well require appropriate li censing to perform legally fortunately no license is needed for the distribution or receipt of information it self so the next time you look at the political scene and despair thinking well if of the nation and of this state and of this city have to turn libertarian before i ll be free then somebody might as well cut my goddamn throat now and put me out of my misery recognize that such is not the case there exist ways to make your self free if you wish to explore such techniques via the project you are welcome to give me your name and address or a fake name and mail drop for that matter and you ll go on the mailing list for my erratically published newsletter any friends or acquaintances whom you think would be interested are welcome as well i m not even asking for stamped self addressed envelopes since my printer can handle mailing la bels and actual postage costs are down in the noise compared with the other efforts in getting an issue out if you should have an idea to share or even a useful product to plug i ll be glad to have you write it up for publication even if you want to be the proverbial free rider and just benefit from what others contribute you re still welcome everything will be public domain feel free to copy it or give it away or sell it for that matter cause if you can get money for it while i m taking full page ads trying to give it away you re certainly entitled to your capitalist profit anyway every application of these principles should make the world just a little freer and i m certainly willing to underwrite that at least for the forseeable fu ture i will leave you with one final thought if you don t learn how to beat your plowshares into swords before they outlaw swords then you sure as hell ought to learn before they outlaw plowshares too chuck hammill the libertech project queensbury drive los angeles california hammill netcom com the above libertech address was updated december with the permission of chuck hammill by russell whitaker those interested in the issues raised in this piece should participate in at least these newsgroups alt privacy alt security pgp comp org eff talk sci crypt a copy of the rsa based public key encryption program pgp pretty good privacy can be obtained at various ftp sites around the world one such site is gate demon co uk where an ms dos version can be had by anonymous ftp as pgp zip in pub pgp versions for other operating systems including unix variants and macintosh are also available source code is also available here s the blurb for pgp by the way quote pgp pretty good privacy ver rsa public key encryption freeware for msdos protects e mail lets you communicate securely with people you ve never met with no secure channels needed for prior exchange of keys well featured and fast excellent user documentation pgp has sophisticated key management an rsa conventional hybrid encryption scheme message digests for digital signatures data compression before encryption and good ergonomic design source code is free filenames pgp zip executable and manuals pgp src zip sources keywords pgp pretty good privacy rsa public key encryption privacy authentication signatures email end quote russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal of transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi
sci.crypt	triple des i have seen various references to triple des recently could anyone tell me what it is from context i would guess that it means encrypting each block times with a different key each time but i d like to be sure replies by email preferred our news is unreliable thanks richard pgp public key available on request pgp public key available on request disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
sci.crypt	summary des init vector as additional key at the risk of getting lost in the clipper chip discussion i give a summary on my recent question in article pqscbcnh minnie zdv uni mainz de i wrote the recent discussion in this news group suggests that a key search attack against des is quite feasible now but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses a random init vector of bytes questions makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key then we have a bit key if yes is anything known about the security of this key scheme can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the bit key space unfortunately the answer is no concealing the initialisation vector essentially doesn t give any additional security i got answers from grady netcom com mark lomas cl cam ac uk smb research att com that opened my eyes it s pretty simple say e is encryption and d decryption with key k on bit blocks let c be the initialisation vector m m the message blocks c c the cipher text blocks then encryption in cipher block chaining cbc mode works by the formula c i e m i xor c i and decryption by m i c i xor d c i so if the attacker doesn t have c this only affects the first message block m but she can do her key search attack on m m the situation in cipher feedback cfb mode is a bit more complicated but similar and left as an exercise for the reader finally there is the modified output feedback mode ofb where des or whatever block cipher you use simply acts as random generator by s i e s i with initialisation vector seed s and encryption is given by c i m i xor s i here the usual known plaintext attack against xor bitstream ciphers reduces the cracking to key search for k klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse w mainz germany
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com you re reading far too much into this aside from the obvious fact that you shouldn t hold anybody to what they wrote in a year old book in a rapidly changing field like this quite simply she says that the security should not depend on the secrecy of the algorithm a secret algorithm can still be secure after all we just don t know it only our level of trust is affected not the security of the system the algorithm could be rsa for all we know which we believe to be secure they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security they want to protect its market share if they publish the algorithm then shortly manufacturers would make chips that implement the algorithm and standard but do not use a key stored in escrow and of course everybody would buy them the whole push of this chip is that by establishing a standard that you can only use if you follow their rules they get us to follow their rules without enacting new laws that we would fight tooth and nail quite simply with clipper established it would be much harder for another encryption maker to define a new standard to make phones that can t talk to the leading phone companies the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for of the populace to get untappable crypto you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one that s the chicken and egg of crypto the government is using its very special ability to solve chicken and egg problems of new technologies to control this one in a way they like it s almost admirably clever when the eff started i posed the question here what are the police going to do when they wake up and discover they can t wiretap and nobody here had an answer or even thought it was much of a question then came the backdoor and digital telephony bills which we fought now we have their real answer the cleverest of all brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re clipper chip in article almaden ibm com jbs watson ibm com writes is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from james b shearer i do not think they can use the eavesdropping as evidence at all however using the info they gather while listening they can go searching the right place and find good strong evidence which they can use in court question currently it is easy to wire tap from the technical point of view at least anybody using the appropriate radio receiver can listen to communications between a car telephone and the ground station the police also obviously the clipper chip will make it much more difficult for the non authorized person to eavesdrop note that i do not write impossible the privacy will thus improve from the current situation poeple who really have something to hide already do not use the phone to speak of these things if an illegal operation is really worth one can afford having critical data carried by a person rather than sending it electronically the clipper chip will not change this the problem is more politic foreign countries will never accept the clipper chip is the access to the escrow cannot be directly granted to their own police following their own law not the us law i e each country will have its own escrow how then will it be possible to monitor the international traffic or will encrypted international traffic be possible or will there be an international escrow some kind of u n thing forbidding crypted communication is impractical how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks what about private networks and this will be more and more impossible as the volume of electronic traffic will increrase in the next years i think that the clipper chip can only be an interesting device to limit the risk of for instance one s girlfriend s husband listening to his wife s communications it will bring no more as regards to security is it worth i think so if its cost is limited i think that many privacy invasions are done not only by official services but also by private entities the clipper can help reducing these provided we do not hope too much of it it is not a real danger and it can be helpful ph hoogvorst
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals i don t know about that they might if they find it the most expedient way to keep people from using something they can t crack
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips i believe there is no technical means of ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining a secret of some kind not necessarily for instance in the system outlined in the may issue of byte the process of getting one s public key listed for general use involves giving pieces of your private key to escrow agencies which do calculations on those pieces and forward the result to the publishers of the public key directory which combines these results into your listed public key if you try to give the escrow agencies pieces which don t yield your private key when they are all put together the result is that the public key listed for you is wrong and you can t read messages encrypted to you
sci.crypt	re clipper chip in article apr ens fr h o dmi ens fr philippe hoogvorst writes forbidding crypted communication is impractical how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks what about private networks i suspect the government feels it is enough to prevent companies from offering secure encryption services big companies don t take that kind of risk they re too visible and have too much to lose the us government may not have to make encryption illegal to prevent its use if they could credibly say to ibm or mit you will receive no us government money next year unless you follow these voluntary guidelines on use of encryption i doubt either organization would delay making use of encryption a violation of local policies the us government gets much of its power by making it impractical to operate without getting money from the government while putting restrictions on use of such money that would be illegal if they were enacted as laws john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article apr wuecl wustl edu eah gauguin wustl edu edward anthony hutchins writes modify pgp to allow it to compress decompress bit frames every msec as part of the project i m working on now we re trying to get celp up and running in realtime full duplex mode i gotta find the source to pgp and see how tough it would be to integrate the en decryption parts into the code i presume you are just going to use idea for the session encryption and transmit the session key with rsa david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	cryptography bibliography yesterday i read an article from someone who was requesting references for introductory texts on cryptography although i marked the article to return it appears to have expired on this site anyway on one of the previous occasions when this subject arose i saved a couple articles which made suggestions one of the articles contained a quite impressive bibliography if the poster of the request or anyone else would like to email me i would be glad to send out copies of these recommendations including the bibliography david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	re clipper crap on wed apr gmt kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge said kk shaun p hughes writes kk newsgroups sci crypt kk from sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes kk date sat apr gmt kk just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use kk of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists kk excluding the iran contra gang kk sure the rum runners in prohibition see kahn s the codebreakers kk the irony was they were using better codes and key security than kk most governments were and fidel castro che guerra they used one time pads i think it was in an scientific american article about quantum cryptography
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article r ta hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it i suppose after waco it s only prudent to leave the to the death part out rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd wk n jyv oh there are so many to choose from
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this you are correct several times tempest is a codeword for a standard shared between the nato governments to limit the inadvertent emission of information by either electromagnetic radiation or conduction the limits set in the standard are classified but there is open source information to the effect that either the electrical or magnetic components of electromagnetism can be exploited it is a basic rule of physics that there is an electromagnetic field associated with any path that conducts a flow of electrons among other things i drive a korean built at clone and an associated pin dotmatrix printer the major source of unintentional emission is the crt to that can be added the video driver card the rs parallel cable and the printer head the emissions from these are gross can be detected with the crudest of equipment were i to apply good test equipment and some intelligence to measuring emission levels i would find many other potential sources of leaked information where cryptography is used for serious purposes poor tempest protection becomes an important security hazard in the early eighties the need to allow some commercial concerns particularly financial institutions a level of protection against tempest threat led to a series of briefings to invited corporations and to the release of a cut down tempest stansard for commercial use i say release for while equipment to meet the standard is available at a price and to approved customers afaik even the commercial standard remains classified if you think about it it would really have to wouldn t it owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp x public key on request
sci.crypt	re clipper not good enough for government this is stupid won t it cost more to those companies hoping to serve the gov t and private markets if they don t use the same technology i would guess that they won t use clipper at all what they will do is use their stu iiis amoung themselves and the governmental agencies they need to talk to and ignore clipper after all if it s not secure enough for the agency department they are communicating with why should the coprations trust it jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re from crossbows to cryptography but i think that mind set is a mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology to oppress the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools evil and good walk hand in hand it is also important to note that the good in the tools lies in the wielder of the tools in fact technology represents one of the most promis ing avenues available for re capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them i cannot accept this ridiculous leap in logic technology is neutral to good or evil when technology is used by evil men it is called evil technology when it is used by good men it is called good technology really it is just technology that allows action to be realized more efficently and on a larger scale by its very nature it favors the bright who can put it to use over the dull who can not try not to confused the development of technology with its use certainly bright people will be better at creating technology but even young children know how to program vcr machines are vcr machines not extremely complex to create it favors the adaptable who are quick to see the merit of the new over the sluggish who cling to time tested ways adaptibility and flexibility is always better at enduring than the stiff and stubborn a young child is soft and supple an old man is stiff and inflexible a dripping of water can cut through stone this has nothing to do with technology rather technology just allows us to magnify action and what two better words are there to de scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish i have no objection to this joshp cmu edu o silent o thunder
sci.crypt	re how to make this illuminating thing in article rn innguj dns nmsu edu jcho dante nmsu edu cho writes my father having worked for american cyanamid for sometime did mention that the recipe is a secret neither of us know of just how toxic the stuff is but you can synthesize a simliar substance that is available to just about any organic lab called luminol you can usually find this in an organic lab book or something similiar these substances are normally not the secret but how to get at them the method of preperation is normally patented which means that no one else can make the chemical in the same way without undergoing an agreement with american cyanamid but i guess you knew what a patent is if you know what substance is used you ll also know its toxicity rumor has it that luminol is some base form for the stuff used in the light sticks the luminol reaction has the disadvantage of not lasting as long as the commercial version remember that cyano compounds are found in nature and not all are poisonous regards r h w poser chem eng iii university of pretoria fidonet or rolf poser p f n z fidonet org fastest pose rh babel ee up ac za tel
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals i don t know about that they might if they find it the most expedient way to keep people from using something they can t crack let s put it this way they have a charter and several executive orders to obey among other things which explicitly prohibit sharing this information unless things have changed withing the last little while i suppose they could ignore it if they choose but i doubt they would for an authoritative look at the nsa get bamford s the puzzle palace that s all i can say ralph
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography marc tanda isis org marc thibault writes looking at it from up here in the frozen north it looks like you could do worse than get the nra involved they have a kindred problem a large number of voters the right attitude and lots of funds they also have a lot of the other voters really irritated at them from an ethical or constitutional viewpoint i haven t seen a good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn t also support the nra position on guns and vice versa okay folks i know i m in the minority on this issue but i can t let this assertion go unchallenged yet again i m going to say this only once in the hopes of not starting a flame war off of the main topic guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference the only way you can use a gun is to hurt somebody else crypto graphy helps prevent other people from hurting you sorry for the digression let s not forget the issue that we do agree on we want continued access to crypto technology of our choice without key registration george mitchell george tessi com
sci.crypt	re triple des please post to news too
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography quoting amanda intercon com amanda walker in article rn b khb news intercon com george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference nope information properly delivered can be just as deadly as lead the same is true of lemon meringue pie o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	stu iii general question why are people willing to trust the stu iii because the government does jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re tempest angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this anything can be an emissions problem right down to the video cable given the right equipment you can pick the screen paint from the cable but given any cable you must know what is being sent through it to know the format of the signal as well as how many wires etc
sci.crypt	re clipper chip reverse engineering maa plato ds boeing com mark a allyn writes you all mention that the algorithm is classified and have expressed concerns and ideas of how to figure out the algorithm using software the question that i have is why cant someone take one of these chips and reverse engineer it i mean take the thing to a chip testing analysis facility one with a decent electron microscope just pry off the top of the chip and start scanning it with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry i remembered a place that i use to work for had one of these facilities that they used to analyze chips that we accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show us where in the circuit it was i am sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential is there especially at a university where the security at such a facility is looser for someone to take a clipper apart and analyze it what can the government do to prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes they are using some technology developed by vlsi systems the other manufacturer of the clipper chips that produces chips that are supposed to be highly resistant to reverse engineering matthew lyle matt oc com matt utdallas bitnet openconnect system dallas texas
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details what are the assurances the escrow people will not be forbidden to report any access attempts for one s keys in ny state it is already a crime to inform anyone of a law enforcement wiretap on their phone even if the person doing the informing learns about it through non privliged means
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful tedwards eng umd edu thomas grant edwards writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have if prof denning is afraid of posting here due to personal attacks perhaps she should use an anonymous posting service that is why they are there to allow heated debate to occur without the personal attacks er people are going to make personal attacks on prof denning whether she posts here or not that much should be obvious from looking at the traffic over the last few weeks therefore i conclude that the existence of personal attacks is irrelevant to any decision concerning whether to post i suspect that prof denning is actually using the attacks as an excuse for not posting and that the real reason for the silence is that clipper is not the sort of proposal any self respecting cryptographer can support via reasoned argument mathew if you want to have constructive discussions here and more importantly be taken seriously by your peers you may wish to consider shaping up advice i was offered by david sternlight
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips brad clarinet com brad templeton writes they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security they want to protect its market share that s one way to put it keeping the algorithm classified means that disclosure of it falls under the rubric of national security nothing like federal marshalls to guard a monopoly the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for of the populace agreed although this is still somewhat better than the status quo to get untappable crypto you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one sounds like a job for the free software foundation amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re clipper crap kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang just a couple of days ago i heard on the radio news that a neo nazi organization had set up a bbs to keep its members informed according to the radio man the nazis were using encryption to reduce their risk if they were prosecuted no i do not have any more information have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference no they re both neutral whether they re offensive or defensive depends on how you use them nonsense mike in heinlein s moon is a harsh mistress decides that a weapon is some mechanism which allows you to deliver energy at a distance i don t have the book handy or i d find the exact quote guns do that cryptosystems do not disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re triple des richard lucock rmal jet uk wrote i have seen various references to triple des recently could anyone tell me what it is from context i would guess that it means encrypting each block times with a different key each time but i d like to be sure replies by email preferred our news is unreliable could people replying to the above question post their responses here as well as i m sure others including myself would like to hear them thanks jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no keats ee jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams pgp public key available upon request or by finger
sci.crypt	re clipper chip questions in rmrm jvb sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes about scanning clipper and reverse engineering the algorithm am i missing something obvious here what could have the government done to address this possibility do they really care if it stays classified yeah you re missing the obvious fact that since the algorithm is classified if you reverse engineer it from the chip and later publish it or build a compatible chip you re divulging classified information and are in a big load of trouble i don t think they can do that without changing the law the chip itself isn t classified and reverse engineering is allowed by law possibly unless prohibited by a valid contract the algorithm may be classified but there are many court cases ruling that information identical to classfied information but obtained from unclassified sources is freely publishable with the possible exception of nuclear weapon information arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re clipper crap in article kckluge apr krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang sure the rum runners in prohibition see kahn s the codebreakers the irony was they were using better codes and key security than most governments were yes great chapter elizabeth friedman sp comes shining through however the chapter also notes that these rum runners invented their own crypto hired ex military folks in fact how s that for a revolving door now given that today s rum runners coke runners actually have even more money than yesterday s it s reasonable to expect them to have even better cryptography i doubt they have a chip foundry of their own yet but so my question of the fbi nist nsa is how are you going to make the rum runners use the clipper chip answer you re not question ok in that case your justification for taking away our rights has evaporated how do you justify our loss of rights if you can t use the drug dealers and terrorists disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems begin pgp signed message in article cliftonrc tvt al netcom com cliftonr netcom com pope clifton writes if i want to talk to someone i don t need to have previously exchanged keys with him i just call him up and the phones establish a session key for us using a zero knowledge algorithm or something of the kind if i ve misunderstood this part it probably invalidates the rest of this notion this lends itself to spoofing i go buy a pair of clipper phones to go on a pair of phone lines in a back room somewhere and have the digital switch programmed to redirect his calls to one of my two lines instead of to his whenever he receives a call the two phones are wired back to back in the clear anyone see any problem with this scheme other than to assume that all public officials and phone company employees are totally incorruptible as far as i can see no matter how the session keys are generated be it diffie hellman or whatever any cripple conversation which travels in whole or in part over a land line is vulnerable to this scheme law enforcement agencies can do it legally at the telco or illegally by finding some part of the phone line that they can cut into the degree of risk depends very much on location not good in the middle of a busy street but not bad on a line in open country leading to a drug lord s ranch the only way to defeat it would be if your phone had the equivalent of a public key indexed against phone number for every phone you might want to call all of them totally impractical even if some part of the cripple algorithm could be used as a kind of public key i don t understand enough about these things to know this sort of encryption scheme is only really workable over a radio link and even then you could probably interevene without causing problems for other phones nearby if you were physically close to the target phone gosh yet another way to get round cripple encryption how many is that we ve found so far and that s without even knowing the details of the algorithm paul
sci.crypt	re hardware hash function in article c deo uye watson ibm com basturk watson ibm com erol basturk writes so the question is has a fast hash function been designed for hardware implementation yes you can use a stream cipher chip to hash data with only slight modification see a fast cryptographic checksum algorithm based on stream ciphers x lai ra rueppel j woolven auscrypt pp to ross
sci.crypt	re help some nut is threatening to sue i don t wish to rehash the pgp patent issue at all but i do feel that some potential misconceptions in interpretting intellectual property laws need to be raised in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes if pgp violates rsas patents then only executing pgp could be a violation distributing pgp could be contributory infringement but the pgp documentation seemed sufficient to me to protect distributors before i deleted it using pgp might be a patent violation in the us so i have no need to keep it you are correct that executing pgp would be a violation unless the patent were declared invalid by the courts but there is a question as to when how or if distributing pgp would be a violation if the person or company distributing pgp receives money for doing so then it is clearly a sale for example if it were on compuserve they charge you for access so they would be selling pgp when there is no charge for pgp things get less clear but there would still be a reasonable view that it is inducing an infringement nb re jim bidzos you have no legal action you can take unless you believe you can prove someone is using pgp in the us for a purpose other than that specifically allowed by patent laws not entirely correct anyone can sue for any reason but you cannot prevail unless you can prove that by a prepoderance of evidence under patent laws pgp does have legitimate uses as a means to study your algorithm in order to produce improvements which would still require your approval to execute until the patent runs out around this is a common misconception the patent laws do not mention any valid purpose for infringing a patent although it is clear that in order to create a new invention either based on a prior patent or to avoid infringing a prior patent one must perform research on an existing patent to just say that you infringed a patent assume we re not talking the rsa patent only for research purposes wink wink nudge nudge and then never develop any related invention ie only use it would be a clear infringement glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio aa er
sci.crypt	re my letter about clipper in article strnlghtc bjdw mid netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes part of the basis for my belief is that we nsa have more people spend much more money and have much better hardware than anyone else the same could be said for many other goverment agencies but big budgets large staffs and long lead time haven t made many of them into models of effectiveness the fact is that those of us outside the inner circles have only james bamford s word that the people at the nsa use those legendary masses of computers for anything other than reading netnews like many of us the nsa doesn t have an impressive record of accomplishments at least not a public record david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted this on the other hand is priceless where s it from
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems erwin trwacs fp trw com harry erwin writes anyone interested in adopting british telecom s quantum encryption scheme they ve demonstrated it over a km link it automatically detects wiretapping can you tell us more pooka
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems in article erwin trwacs erwin trwacs fp trw com writes anyone interested in adopting british telecom s quantum encryption scheme they ve demonstrated it over a km link it automatically detects wiretapping if the bt phone system is anything to go by me thinks this should be approached with great caution mark without warranty internet mark bart demon co uk implied merchantability cis or fitness for a particular purpose yo dude click click brrr
sci.crypt	re des salts in article mar demax com mikel demax com mikel lechner writes you could just as well use a character password to perform the encryption of the zero bits one simple method would be to use the first characters to encrypt the zero bits and then use the remaining characters to encrypt the result again the output would still be bits which encodes into ascii characters wouldn t this method be vulnerable against a birthday attack currently a cracker needs to find the only key that produces the given ciphertext he has to try about keys on the average in the proposed method the cracker only needs any pair of key halves if he can store about guesses for one half he is likely to find a mathching pair in about guesses here i have assumed that the des encryption is reversable if the key is guessed is this so or do the modifications of the s boxes by the salt bits make it non reversable probably there is only one key i think there is chance in about that there are two or more keys can anyone verify this but this doesn t help the cracker much
sci.crypt	source code for substitution cipher i was wondering if anyone knew of where i could find source code for a program to solve a substitution cipher thanks kevin please post your answer instead of e mailing me directly
sci.crypt	re more clipper stuff ben liberman ben genesis mcs com wrote what if clipper is fairly secure but leaves a distinct clipper signature that is what if it s not too difficult to tell that a msg was clipper encrypted even if you can t tell the contents in that case anyone who is trying to hide behind anther encryption scheme will stand out from all of the other traffic and raise a red flag to the nsa etc i think the obvious answer which may have been posted but i haven t seen it is to encrypt your data with some other scheme then run it through clipper the only way the police will be able to detect the other encryption is through a wiretap so even if they do notice with an illegal wiretap i have a hard time seeing a judge issuing a warrant for a search to confiscate the illegal scheme assuming that at one day it comes to this a worse case based on an illegal wiretap then again maybe i am an idealist ben liberman internet ben genesis mcs com ben tai chi il us michael sawyer my opinions are mine not necessarily uh s nsf s or nasa s university of hawaii physical oceanography satellite remote sensing ripem public key available md ofpublickey c c a d c dccc d
sci.crypt	advanced one time pad was re more one time pad stuff o k if you ve read this group for a while you know all about the one time pad but here s a question i haven t seen the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has a well known flaw in authentication suppose you use a random bit stream as the pad and exclusive or as the encryption operation if an adversary knows the plaintext of a message he can change it into any other message here s how it works alice is sending bob a plaintext p under a key stream s alice computes the ciphertext c s xor p and sends it to bob eve knows the plainext p but wants the message to appear as p eve intercepts c and computes c c xor p xor p s xor p eve sends c to bob bob decrypts c by computing c xor s p thus receiving the false message which was substituted by eve now the question is how can this attack be defeated with information theoretic security not just computational security can we define something like ideal authentication which is the analog of ideal security can we obtain ideal authentication if not how much can we limit eve s control over the message if we can achieve ideal authentication does the solution use more key bits or expand the message can we show the solution to be optimal in one or more parameters does anyone know if these questions have been aswered before olson umbc edu
sci.crypt	re audio cds on apr steve b access digex net steve brinich said steve hmmm given the error corrections in modern audio cds is steve it sufficient to simply instruct your agent to decrypt using steve the bit stream from the second cut of the latest garth brooks steve cd or are the usual number of bit errors found acceptable in steve commercial cds because of that error correction enough to steve garble the message if such a method is used one unreliable data point while looking over the shoulder of a recording engineer i decided that he was seeing a raw error rate of about in e on a cd master both the extrapolation to mass market cds and my state of mind while doing the arithmetic i was waiting for him to finish so we could go get something to eat are questionable tony desimone room m performance analysis department crawfords corner road at t bell laboratories holmdel nj
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes perhaps someone should ask zippy the pinhead for his opinion yow am i encrypting yet didn t we go over this guns n crypto discussion a few months ago must we go over it again ji
sci.crypt	one time pad authentication i can think of a couple of ways of guaranteeing authenticity in a one time pad encrytped scheme though i m not sure how to prove that what kind of authenicity they provide an obvious first attempt might be to prepend a truly random unpredictable for eve block to the message and then calculate a crc which included the random starting block and all of the message this could be encrypted after the message the problem is i m not sure it s impossible to come up with a message that will hash to the same crc regardless of the random starting block it intuitively seems like it ought to be hard but i m not that sure clearly a crypto strength hash like md or the sha would be stronger but again i m not sure i m comfortable claiming that it s unbreakable a scheme to use up some of the pad bits to decide how many bits of s to include in the plaintext stream before going on wouldn t be too bad either at the cost of increasing the speed with which you use up your pad this could be used to give you arbitrarily low probability that your opponent could spoof a valid looking message since any deciphered plaintext in a spot that should be carrying s will show that something funny s going on if for each message bit m i we used up one random bit r i to decide whether to insert a into the plaintext stream we d get a total pad use of times the message length we d expand the message size by about half each that should appear in the plaintext stream that doesn t is a guess for our would be spoofer at each bit she has to guess i m trying to see how to quantify her chances of making it all the way through the spoofed message but it gets a little complicated because she can get un synched and still happen to have a in that place in the spoofed message now i can see a simple way of doing this that s got to be as secure as a one time pad at a cost of using times the message length in pad bits for each message bit m i use one random bit r i and xor them together to get x i now encrypt the three bits with the one time pad the enemy has no way of guessing what r i is so he she can t guess what x i is either any change she makes in the ciphertext stream will have to involve a guess of what r i was is there any way to do this without using so many pad bits spoofing the message is equivalent to correctly guessing as many random bits as there are bits in the message clearly this makes spoofing messages just as hard if you know the whole message text as if you know none of it in fact it looks to me like this makes it just as hard to generate a spoofed message with the ciphertext as without it but i m not entirely sure about that is there an easier way of doing this that s provably as secure as the one time pad john kelsey
sci.crypt	authentication and one time pads was re advanced one time pad in article s dbminnehb elang acslab umbc edu olson umbc edu bryan olson cmsc g writes the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has a well known flaw in authentication suppose you use a random bit stream as the pad and exclusive or as the encryption operation if an adversary knows the plaintext of a message he can change it into any other message here s how it works alice is sending bob a plaintext p under a key stream s alice computes the ciphertext c s xor p and sends it to bob eve knows the plainext p but wants the message to appear as p eve intercepts c and computes c c xor p xor p s xor p eve sends c to bob bob decrypts c by computing c xor s p thus receiving the false message which was substituted by eve firstly an aside i agree that the weakness exists but i have a lot of trouble believing that it represents a difficulty in real life given the purpose of the one time pad is to give unbreakable security and the expense of key distribution etc imply that the clients really do want that level of security these same people want to keep p a secret i find it hard to believe that eve might happen to have a copy of p lying around i am aware that the same argument applies to eve knowing even a small part of the message but eve must know exactly where which bytes in c her known susequence starts or the result will be garbled i find this at least as surprising back to the question if i had the resources to use a one time pad for such transmissions i would also append a message authentication code to the message using up the next bits of the one time pad as the key perhaps your original question basically asked whether there was any way to authenticate the message with the same degree of security as the pad itself provided and i don t know the answer however i would propose the following for discussion alice and bob have an arbitrary number of secret random bits to share which eve doesn t know she finds them out effectively by knowing some p and the corresponding c it is the fact that they correspond that causes the problem if a message authentication code was to be created using some one time pad operation such that eve could not know which parts of the mac were affected by which parts of the input she would be unable to forge a mac to correspond what is required is a non linear combiner of parts of the message non linear so that simply xoring or subtracting or whatever doesn t have exactly the same effect now at the end of the encrypted message c alice appends a n bit mac computed as follows s means the next full chunk of the one time pad compute c p xor s and pad to an n bit boundary with more of s break c into n bit chunks set mac to initialisation vector for i in each chunk sequentially set mac mac nlop c i at the end of this process mac is the message authentication code bob verifies the mac in the obvious manner he recovers the plaintext p then uses some more of his pad to reproduce the mac in the same manner nlop is the non linear operator and there is the rub the simplest non linear operator i can think of is an s box that is have a fixed even published permutation of the n bit integers an indexable table called sbox and use x nlop y x xor sbox y practically speaking i think this solves your problem as eve never sees the intermediate output c and hence can t deduce s or perform any valid substitution on it also practically speaking you want the mac to be fairly large say bits but you might not want a gigabyte say s box so you might work on byte sized s boxes but i think that is an irrelevant detail for the discussion at hand who will be first to point out my errors or give me a pointer to some literature greg rose australian computing and communications institute ggr acci com au use of the standard phrase hijacked may be inadvisable caa
sci.electronics	re ir remote control receiver in article wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane p mantick writes ab freenet carleton ca marc dion writes for a project of my own i would like to build a infra red remote control receiver for regular vcrs and tvs remotes does anybody have any info or tips on how to build such receiver in particular a which photo detector should i use which wavelength do remotes use b which ics or circuit should i use c any suggestions for circuit layout another suggestion find a brand of tv that uses an ir remote and go look at the sams photofact for it you can often find some very detailed schematics and parts list for not only the receiver but the transmitter as well including carrier freq specs and tone decoding specs if the system uses that probably won t help i d be willing to bet that every manufacturer used those little self contained modules i think sharp made them radio shack used to sell them for a few bucks maybe they still do the module had leads power ground and demodulated output it contained the photo detector amplifier integrator and demodulator all in a tiny metal can if you want to buy one try radio shack or else a tv repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency is khz and each different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment jim ritterbusch ritterbus wcsu ctstateu edu or ne radiomail net temp rf there is an art the guide says or rather a knack to flying the knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding the filtering is not interpolation as that would distort the frequency content of the signal you are listening to generally these players run the samples thru an all pass filter network i have done this for ecg waveforms from a person s heart and the effect is rather spooky it actually reconstructs peaks that weren t there correctly too and fills in the gaps with the properly computed values just as if there had been a real sample taken at that point i use a cpu to do all the math it takes a decent but not unreasonable amount of cpu time to do this you can keep up with things in realtime if you write efficient code in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer i d say that they use a tapped delay line with resistor op amp weighting to accomplish the filtering this strikes me as the most cost effective method for volume production runs anyway then the purpose of oversampling is to move the effective sampling rate up to n times khz in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters so assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce slightly better sound due to anti alias filtering actually i think the only reason they do this is so that they can say that they have a marketting gimic i would guess that it is acutally cheaper to filter an oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter a roll off that isn t so sharp it s too bad that they charge more for something that i think is actually less costly to build i seriously doubt that the filters cost the same but are better they are built to a price spec and that spec says cheap as possible joel kolstad dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com n w
sci.electronics	re voltage regulation and current limiting andy collins acollins uclink berkeley edu wrote one not so quick question to throw out there for you guys for our class project we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs voltatge adjustable from v current limited at a voltage must stay within of designated value for i from a ac ripple less than mv rms to decide which kind of circuit you must know the initialprecission of the limiter current and the allowed temp drift in the first case you can use a ube of a transistor as a voltage reference of about vdc with a temp drift of mv k in the second case its better you use a bandgap ref and a opamp circuit to detect the maximum current the output of this opamp controlls the outputstage to limit the current bye thomas
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products in qmbi aln transfer stratus com michael labella vos stratus com writes i gather by off shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built by blue fin tuna s who are into that squid fi sound i agree on that one my adcom preamp did sound better after installing the famous running the chips class a resistor mod and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass too bad the factory could not make em sound better but better sound unfortunately does not appear to be a priority with adcom else the mods would neither have been necessary nor would they have improved what was already touted as superlative state o d art le sound i really want to hear from all those people out there who have traded up from an sp ii even an sp a to a gfp etc or maybe from those that have dumped their forte amps for a gfa etc i am one of those folks who traded up from a to an audio research sp ii am i enjoying it yes the sp does sound better but at a price greg
sci.electronics	re pink noise in sci electronics wayne uva schools virginia edu tony wayne writes what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments pink noise has constant power per geometric frequency increment octave octave etc thus the khz khz octave has the same amount of noise power as the hz hz octave white noise has constant power per arithmetic frequency increment hz khz etc thus the khz khz band has the same amount of noise power as the hz hz band both bands are hz wide pink noise can be made by passing white noise thru a db octave filter usually approximated by a network of several rc pairs note you can t get db octave by using half a db octave network pink noise is commonly used in audio power response measurements it shows up on audio spectrum analyzers with octave related bands as a flat line across the bands davep
sci.electronics	re need info on dsp project there is a file at the simtel archives called adda zip i think that is for dsp
sci.electronics	making up odd resistor values required by filters when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z cheers ian h
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc does anyone here know where i can find a modem and comm software for an apple iie i would prefer in manhattan but new jersey would work too david tillyer datcc cunyvm cuny edu
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in sci electronics rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver yes it s called radar seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so depends on the environment in a static environent such as a waveguide yes in a dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept how about measuring vertical distance as well any chance or am i getting ridiculous what is the difference between vertical and horizontal what frequencies would be best for this or does matter this depends on the required range the required accuracy the allowable ambiguity in range the frequencies the fcc etc allow you to use
sci.electronics	re pink noise tony wayne writes what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments tony pink noise is a random signal with more low frequency components than white noise if you look at the frequency spectrum of white noise at a frequency analyzer you will find that the spectrum power density is flat which means that every frequency is present in the noise signal often pink noise is obtained from white noise by integrating of low pass filtering a white noise signal therefore pink noise contains much more low frequency components the effect of pink noise is sometimes used to simulate thunder or roaring animals an additional low pass filter with variable cutoff frequency will explain you why enjoy it wouter
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player mcmahan netcom com dave mc mahan writes in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding the filtering is not interpolation as that would distort the frequency content of the signal they do interpolate it s not linear interpolation though you are correct that the frequency content is not altered more specifically the baseband spectrum is preserved and so is every nth image spectrum the other n in n image spectra are removed where n is the oversampling rate you are listening to generally these players run the samples thru an all pass filter network i have done this for ecg waveforms from a person s ideally the filter has a gain of from hz to hz and a gain of from to the new nyquist frequency in practice a finite transition band is required and there is also a certain amount of pass band ripple and stop band leakage with a high order eg taps digital filter a very good approximation can be easily achieved bit deleted about observations of interpolation filter at work in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer i d say that they use a tapped delay line with resistor op amp weighting to accomplish the filtering this strikes me as the most cost effective method for volume production runs no they actually use a digital fir just like yours but built in hardware on custom vlsi chips for mainly economic reasons anyway then the purpose of oversampling is to move the effective sampling rate up to n times khz in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters so assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce slightly better sound due to anti alias filtering actually i think the only reason they do this is so that they can say that they have a marketting gimic i would guess that it is acutally cheaper to filter an oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter a roll off that isn t so sharp it s too bad that they charge more for something that i think is actually less costly to build i guess that the answer is somewhere between the two as an interesting aside some of you out there may be aware of a scheme used by pioneer and wadia which is called by pioneer at least legato link i haven t heard one of these players but by reading advertising blurb and a couple of pseudo technical articles i deduced that all they do is build a lousy digital oversampling filter and let a load of the first image ie aliassed spectrum through talking to bob stuart of boothroyd stuart aka meridian confirmed my suspicion he said that it sounded awful but then he would wouldn t he christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article otter hpl hp com tgg otter hpl hp com tom gardner writes what is the difference between vertical and horizontal gravity doesn t gravity pull down the photons and cause a doppler shift or something just kidding
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article c v m c bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so this would be susceptible to fading multi path etc we used to use a system at the shop made by tellurometer in south africa it used a ghz signal between units across the distance to be measured the ghz was just the carrier the real signals were several switched ones around mhz or so whose relative phases at the receiver would read out the digits of the distance down to cm if needed the units came with psychrometers sp to measure the relative humidity and instructions for correction of the measurements due to rh and temp they were rather heavy and required an operator at each end current technology uses polarized reflectors dual polaization tx rx and psuedo random coding of a radar pulse about the same resolution at x band much better at ghz only one end is heavy regards stu beal ve mwm u csx cciw ca national water research institute burlington ontario canada we d made it through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten it s first robin kyle j spiller
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks in article r r innq i gap caltech edu franko cco caltech edu frank filipanits writes can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance hap controls just outside chicago sells these andrew macrae actually it s happ and some of their equipment can be found in the parts express catalog they show switches for joysticks for and trackballs for they also have pinball parts you re right it is happ controls inc but you can buy direct from them i don t have a phone number with me but anyone interested in it can email me for it i don t remember their button price but the joystick price was per dozen at last check should be slightly higher for one or two but cheaper than parts express as for the trackballs i don t know the new price either but i can sell you rebuilt arcade trackballs for that includes new rollers and new bearings when nec i also have a pile of used joysticks and buttons that i would be willing to sell please email to address below if interested donnie please note the new email address below donald barnes coach i m having blackouts barnes yoda csc ncsu edu computer engineering kind of a nice break in the day isn t it sam n c state university
sci.electronics	need hydrophone info i don t know much about hydrophones so i m looking for any information that will help avoid problems i haven t thought of i would like an inexpensive hydrophone and amplifier with tape line level outputs something like edmund sells for they also sell just the microphone hydrophone head for but how does one construct the enclosure any information would be greatly appreciated thanks bill mohler bill occs cs oberlin edu
sci.electronics	video recording of a vga screen hi all i think the subject says it all does anyone know how to take the rgb h vsync from a standard vga connector and record them on video tape any help is appreciated mark j cargill why i have a program for the pc that i want to videotape so that i can show people how the program works at a presentation i am giving
sci.electronics	flexible solar cells two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product any help would be greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick a path any path but don t send me wayne r node hub org anything bigger than k wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci on ca wayne r node uucp
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc in article apr trintex uucp elr trintex uucp ed ravin writes trans am electronics canal street near th ave lots of surplus type stuff they ve been out of busines for years several other electronics or surplus type places are still on canal street not any more about years ago they all closed when ramco electronics city closed it took weeks and many dumpsters to clear everything out so i heard there are a few places that sell connectors and phone wires but no chips capacitors or discrete stuff sylvan wellington is still on broadway and canal but they re not cheap and not surplus it s mostly a tv repairman s store jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane p mantick writes duane yeesh you will be nailing those irleds may i suggest getting your mitts on the siemens sfh irled this unit is designed to take some big current pulses if you can get your duty cycle down a bit it will output nearly a watt mw with real short duty cycle times nice thing about the sfh is that it is cheap i got mine for about cents a piece even though i had to buy of them are you saying that you have some extras that you would like to do some cost recovery on i may be interested i think for practical and cost reasons i am limited to envelope detection so that leaves me with only increasing the output power and increasing the optical gain at the receiver as methods to extend range btw i have seen irleds with outputs up to watts honest watts i don t have the book here at work so i can t recall the company name the watter ain t cheap around but if you want some power mamamia that s pretty hot they also have a watt a watt and a watt device in their line and will sell small quan to individuals if you are interested i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info yes i m interested in the company name i have access to an extensive data book collection with that kind of power are we getting into an area where eye safety is getting to be a problem now as for the position detector you might try eltec in florida phone number listed in the etid is they seem like nice people their specialty is passive infrared detection devices so they might be able to help you out they are a long way from me but they might be a better source than i can find around here i m curious about your applications if you don t mind saying the device sounds like it could be useful in a lasertag game although you d need to up your carrier signal concept to khz i m keeping my application confidential for now raising the frequency should be no problem in fact one respondent to my question said that i may not have to mimic the duty cycle normally used by ir detector chips stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park ca the make some amazing irled s the really high powered devices are arrays of or led s on a to header the chip model puts out watts in response to a amp us pulse at a duty cycle i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems jeez that should do it i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away very interesting application controlled lighting and environment moderate distances might be more interesting than my application just a thought you could use a roof mounted ir sender similar in operation to a tv remote control that tells each persons coded ir pulser to send a pulse a hamamatsu detector as was mentioned in a previous message in this thread would give the current position store and collate this on a computer and you could replay the movements on the screen interesting stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters in sci electronics idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z since you re worrying about the third decimal place i assume you re using tolerance resistors and capacitors
sci.electronics	ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst i would like to hook up some cameras that were recently donated to our local community cable tv station which have sync inputs in the form of horizontal and vertical drive our station sync is a black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point me at a design article or whatever showing how to produce the horizontal vertical drive signals thanks in advance jack powers
sci.electronics	re radio electronics free information card in article c ulqg i acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog it varies you may get a catalog or price list from the advertiser or if the ad was a specific product a slec sheet on that product or line mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes in article apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively protecting software there are several types of copy protection and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed on some sort of checksum serial number whatever so a copy put on a different machine not installed from original disks will not work the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that i know i ll get flamed for this but with the increasing number of casual users who either unknowingly or don t care about the software copyrights it s the truth i have friends who ask me for copies of my latest games all the time and when i refused they went after somebody else casual pirating is becoming more of a problem some sort of copy protection will discourage the casual copying i ve seen what some of my friends dug up somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days of actual release you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results do not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found by authorities it is the casual pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades to their computer frequently as only problem they have is they won t be able to restore to another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore to different machines on the other hand the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be if this user s copy was found to be somewhere it was not supposed to be we know who has broken their license agreement of course a hacker can break that eventually but that s not the point is it kasey chang
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected if companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind of encryption in the process this change two bytes here thing would go right out the window michael chen from the depths of our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen cs psu edu except what comes from hell
sci.electronics	magic layout editor i heard that magic has been transported to the macintosh environment does anybody know where i can get a hold of this thanks in advance for any responses rich vanderbeek dept of the army aberdeen proving ground md
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards in article apr monu cc monash edu au craw yoyo cc monash edu au sebastian filzek writes hi people ok heres my problem i keep hearing about these little credit card type of things which detect ir light i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england but alas i live in australia could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here and if so where and how much sure edmund scientific company e glouchester pike barrington nj the card is on page of the last catalog i got the cost ranges from us to us depending on size and range of wavelengths the card responds to john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes in apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes in article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari uh oh umm there are a number of copy protection schemes some involve modifying the physical media and some involve encryption schemes c all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time i recall however near monthly releases of new ways to crack the copy protection scheme of the latest releases the fact is none of them are completely secure or anywhere near it some are more or less difficult to crack and some have already been cracked i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can incidentally the uh oh at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers many of which include breaking the law or at least addressing it from one side or the other matt i have written a program and i want to market it i would like certain degree of protection since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations i know laser hole burning method and hardware key method however my software is going to cost only so i can not afford that also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me however i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software off course i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying since they can develope a better program anyway with highest regards babak sehari one of the most popular methods of course is the password check where they ask you for a word from page x line y and word z but this is pitifully simple to remove unless you throw some checksums into the main part of your program and some self rewriting code to confuse some people also make sure that your program can not be run out a debugger another method of course is to not even make bad sectors on the original disk just write a certain key to a certain unallocated sector to help you here you also must do the code protection schemes mentioned in the first paragraph make sure you also fill the rest of the unallocated parts of the disk with garbage as well or they wanna be crackers can just look for the junk in some random sector like you mentioned there are the laser holed disks and hardware keys but they are both expensive and a pain in the butt for the end user which you is the opposite of what you want another configuration that can be used is to save the configuration of the machine that it is being installed to in the most undecipherable format you can think of if the program does not find that this is the same system it requests being installed by the original disk again the original disk should be encrypted compacted have many sectors that should be checked and anything else you can think of to make sure that the original cannot be copied once again you must put code encryption self rewriting code and multiple crc checks in the program to make sure that it does not get changed among other things this also protects your program from virii if the program detects a change in its code tell the user that a virus has been detected in the program tell them the program is virus secure and remember you have helped the world kill some pirating and kill some viruses feel good i hope that i have helped have fun knock some cracking out well you can t do it everything that can be written can be cracked but you ll piss em off in the process goodbye what is the program that will be sold george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article kc wz bubble org bob kc wz bubble org bob billson writes kennehra logic camp clarkson edu rich theman kennehan says hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the take a look over in alt folklore urban there is a thread about subliminal messages on tv the fact that subliminal messages don t work aside an image can t be flashed on a tv screen fast enough to not be noticed well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second although like the previous poster i have to reserve my doubts about the effectiveness of said discrete image in steering my subconscious around bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu the only reason the world hasn t really bruce bostwick dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas murphy s law also applies to murphy
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance robert g carpenter rgc bcstec ca boeing com wrote i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so you might try looking at whats available in laser locating systems they work best for close work mile and under rf is used for much longer distances in two major modes transponder and phase measurment transponder requires you send a pulse to another station and it returns it to you and you measure the round trip time minus the receiver time phase measurements require two or more transmitting stations sending the same frequency signal multiplexed in time a receiver can pick them up and measure the phase shift between signals maps can be drawn that plot the lines of position that correspond to a certain phase shift between two stations john eaton hp vcd johne
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen that s great read my article edit out the personal formality and save george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes in article apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively pro tecting software best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag e annee email schaefer silene imag fr tel no you re not paranoid the world is really out to get you your wrong never give up update your program as much as possible with a very low price of upgrade to registered users and please make sure you keep a list of registered numbers george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	cross compilers and assemblers shareware can anyone point me to a cross compiler and or assembler for the motorola hosted by a pc compatible preferable free or shareware also does anyone know of a gnu cc port to this chip thanks in advance
sci.electronics	wanted a scope i am looking for a mhz scope in good condition please email me or call me at
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards craw yoyo cc monash edu au sebastian filzek writes i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england but alas i live in australia could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here and if so where and how much also are they really commonly avaliable in the states and if so then how much are they and who sells them maybe if i cant get one here i ll write to one of the companies over seas anyway thanks in advance sab i got mine for about bucks at radio shack the instructions do say to expose it to light for a while but mine doesn t seem to require very much to make it work i just wish i could get a big sheet of the stuff abouit x for a reasonable price it isn t cheap from what i ve seen duane
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park ca the make some amazing irled s the really high powered devices are arrays of or led s on a to header the chip model puts out watts in response to a amp us pulse at a duty cycle i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems yeah that s the guys i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away yeah that sounds a lot like lasertag anyway duane
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject oh yeah this is a fine place we haven t had the why does concrete kill lead acid batteries thread in at least six months why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor the concrete simply sucks all the electrons out of the battery and drains them into the ground another explanation implausible as it is is that the lead acid battery needs to be periodically charged topped off otherwise the battery self discharges and then undergoes irreversible chemical reaction naawwwww the concrete sucks the life out dana h myers kk jq views expressed here are mine and do not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those of my employer this extra supports the abolition of the and wpm tests
sci.electronics	re ir remote control receiver ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes if you want to buy one try radio shack or else a tv repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency is khz and each different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment some tv s including my rca set at home uses simple carriers which i think run between and or khz there is no tone decoding in it all one has to do to piss the thing off is just hook an irled up to a variable oscillator and tune through wreaks all kinds of havoc similarly my vcr remote changes channels on my cable box always seems to change the cable box to channel when you do the pause play soooo some things do have some overlap to them duane
sci.electronics	i need to access reports on hall effect devices does anyone know of the whereabouts of technical reports that i can access via the internet
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article sehari du cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes stuff deleted also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me you should be clear in your mind what your goal is two possible goals are maximizing you income from your program and minimizing the number of illegal copies which get created accomplishing doesn t usually accomplish most vendors have concluded that copy protection reduces the number of normal legitimate sales by far more than it increase sales by virtue of changing copiers to purchasers and hence merely reduces revenue most legitimate buyers nowadays including me have had bad experiences with copy protected products e g hard to make a legitimate backup incompatabilties when new system on system upgrade etc and they won t touch them with a ten foot pole wally bass
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards also are they really commonly avaliable in the states and if so then how much are they and who sells them maybe if i cant get one here i ll write to one of the companies over seas radio shack part infrared sensor card us
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article otter hpl hp com tgg otter hpl hp com tom gardner writes in sci electronics rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver yes it s called radar well actually not quite both radar and radio altimeters measure distances by measuring the time required to transmit a signal then receive its reflection from a target radar generally uses pulses while radio altimeters use either pulses or a modulated continuous wave transmission in the case of the latter highly accurate distance measurement can be made as an example the original bendix ala radio altimeter was accurate to foot at feet altitude note however that this is a different method of measuring than the poster originally asked about the problem with gaining accurate measurements between a transmitter and a seperate receiver is that you need a highly accurate time base which starts at the receiver at the exact instant the transmitter triggers this cannot be wire connected since radio waves will actually travel faster in free space air in this case than wire the difference is called the velocity factor of the cable so you need to resort to a common timebase that is automatically corrected for distance etc something like a pll connected to a gps receiver should do the trick triggering both the transmitter and receiver simultaneously sound expensive not too bad but plan on spending a few bucks in both equipment and effort why not go to a different method surveyors use a laser light system where again the reflection time is measured why not try this sounds like something a p e should know about anyway seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so this is actually highly inaccurate since the power output of a transmitter varies from unit to unit there are variances in the antenna and transmission line and the receiver may also vary both from unit to unit and the same unit over time you would need to continuously calibrate the entire system with the radio altimeter this is also done but since everything is located at one place it is much easier to do note especially that the time base for the r a receiver and transmitter is one unit also depends on the environment in a static environent such as a waveguide yes in a dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept nope fm capture effect says that the strongest signal wins that is unless the two interfering signals are seperated by more than db in signal strength this is the one problem that makes altimeters inaccurate at very low altitudes signals bouncing off runways tend to be very strong what frequencies would be best for this or does matter as high as possible to eliminate outside influence and also to enhance attenuation of multipath signals radio altimeters typically use frequencies around ghz hope this helps jack brindle ham radio wa fib internet jackb mdd comm mot com
sci.electronics	test this is just a test to see if this works
sci.electronics	packet radio on the pc i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever please e mail any info to koberg spot colorado edu thanks
sci.electronics	re hi volt from battery you might want to get a disposible flash camera shoot the roll of film then take it apart they re snapped together we used a bunch of them at my wedding but instead of sending the whole camera in i just took the film out it s a standard mm canister and kept the batteries they use one aa battery sorry i didn t keep any of the flash electronics charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re rpm floopy drives update in article r j linnf clover csv warwick ac uk csulo csv warwick ac uk mr m j brown writes hopefully this should sort it all out not bad for quid normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates but what is a quid how does it relate to the british pound or whatever it s called and what is that in american dollars thanks mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	help with phone wire which ones are tip ring i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article mchen apr terra cs psu edu mchen terra cs psu edu michael chen writes if companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind of encryption in the process this change two bytes here thing would go right out the window not entirely true a friend of mine was having trouble finishing the game gods and asked me for help since he could not find a trainer small patch that lets you play without losing lifes the game is compressed but i did find one byte which when changed in the original compressed file would not affect the decompression and would also prevent the shield in the game from being tured off turning therefore making you invincible there are many other progs whose copy protection was defeated one way or another and i have seen examples of this with my own eyes the copy protection schemes defeated were various such as using protected mode compressed executables progs that load and execute other progs possibly compressed dongles key disks etc i believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes michael chen from the depths of our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen cs psu edu except what comes from hell alex t ivopol cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university of wellington new zealand i speak for myself and no one else
sci.electronics	silicon storage inc i would appreciate very much the address and or phone of this company they supposely make analog eeproms thanks in advance doug
sci.electronics	re cad program for electronics what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use it with printgl for high quality output bruce
sci.electronics	help me i m not clever how to make power supply i need to make a power supply that can take input from a cigarette lighter in a car v dc and drive volts at up to amps i know enough to know that a simple voltage divider with two resistors won t do it right can such a thing be made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps bf p s i ve looked for premade things like this at radio shack but none of it seems to go any higher than about ma joel skelton north avenue trade school dept of round things gt a prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes there are several types of copy protection and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed on some sort of checksum serial number whatever so a copy put on a different machine not installed from original disks will not work okay so what do you do if some part of the machine presumably the part on which the code number or whatever that the program has fixated itself upon goes bad you replace that part and now your program won t run because it s on a different computer this is of course assuming that the program uses something in rom like the bios serial number maybe and not a disk based code number obviously if the drive goes bad you ll be reinstalling the stuff anyway i work in a computer lab which is part of the university microlab system we have the wonderfully fun task of maintaining well over a hundred machines both pc and macintosh as well as administering a network of over next machines i personally am concerned only with a small lab with ten pc s and ten mac s i m not the manager but help him with admin often imho copy protection schemes of any sort are nothing more than a major headache for the legitimate user anyone who wants a copy of your program and doesn t care about legality will get a copy period pirate board or no pirate board i too have friends who blatantly and quite successfuly hack copy protection schemes practically in their sleep let s consider what goes on in our lab almost daily we have at least one machine down sometimes several due to some goofball screwing up some setting or other on a piece of software admittedly we being students mostly are not the world s most efficient and effective network administrators but we try keeping even the twenty machines that are partly my responsibility even vaguely looking and acting similar to the average user and maintaining behind the scenes consistency is a real headache but not so bad a headache as trying to remember twenty different folder locations of norton utilities when some guy trashes his disk often we have hardware problems at peak business times and have to do some parts swapping to get stuff working temporarily well i ll cut to the chase and quit boring y all the point is often we have to re install software and copy configuration files etc from machine to machine by far the easiest way we have found to do this is to get one machine working exactly the way we want to then copy the complete setup of this machine to the other nine of that machine s type this ensures us that for at least ten minutes we have ten identical machines to work with having them networked simplifies this considerably as our major packages wordperfect windows etc are all network versions and thus only one copy to mess with often however we need to install a package requested by some instructor to one some or all of the machines for a special project this is usually a hand written or shareware etc program similar to what i believe the original poster was asking about the few we have had with copy protection schemes have caused nothing but nightmares for us to maintain in short don t waste your time with a copy protection scheme it s sort of like outlawing guns the criminals will get your program anyway and you will only be hurting the legitimate honest user write a good user s guide and tech manual whatever else for your program please do this regardless of whether you copy protect the thing and only distribute the manual to licensed users jack the price to cut your losses but please take a cue from the major companies who can admittedly afford the costs of illegal copies far better than you and don t burden the legitimate user with a copy protection scheme sorry for the tirade but it s been a long day here mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that i know i ll get flamed for this but with the increasing number of casual users who either unknowingly or don t care about the software copyrights it s the truth i have friends who ask me for copies of my latest games all the time and when i refused they went after somebody else casual pirating is becoming more of a problem some sort of copy protection will discourage the casual copying i ve seen what some of my friends dug up somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days of actual release you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results do not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found by authorities it is the casual pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades to their computer frequently as only problem they have is they won t be able to restore to another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore to different machines on the other hand the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be if this user s copy was found to be somewhere it was not supposed to be we know who has broken their license agreement of course a hacker can break that eventually but that s not the point is it kasey chang
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article apr news columbia edu kn cunixa cc columbia edu kimball ng writes kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes one other thing there are bubblejets and then there are bubblejets there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output such as hp s dinky little bubblejet whereas most produce really good looking output such as hp s deskjets ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets i am considering either an inkjet or bubble jet printer i ve seen inkjet printers and i was impressed with the near lazer quality i have heard a lot of bad things about the cheaper bubble jet printers does the ink smudge very easily and take a long time to dry thanks t c l s hbl d a w c y e g f t k s m graham wilson lsg cck coventry ac uk ll b law iii coventry university s b g l y z n o x a u v j
sci.electronics	mov advice please hello can somebody tell me what kind of mov s are most useful for a computer surge protector radio shack have types both rated v one for a a current and the other for a on the other hand commercial surge protectors i have seen claim a clamping voltage of v v which seems to me in imply a rated voltage of about v v sqrt what is the right kind while at it ow important is really the emi rfi module is there really any noticable level of such noise in the power line please e mail to me as this group has too much volume for me to be able to follow thanks
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in r mmninn p master cs rose hulman edu henslelf nextwork rose hulman edu lige f hensley writes in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms sure i ll give you bucks for all of them i think they are really neat to put onto key rings when somebody makes the mistake of asking about it you can totally geek out tc
sci.electronics	tunnel diodes on i g spice does anybody have an idea how to model a tunnel diode on spice thank you martin krajci mkrajci wilkes wilkes edu
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article apr porthos cc bellcore com patter dasher cc bellcore com patterson george r writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes my car unfortunately has so much computer junk under the hood that it s astonishingly sensitive to rfi hmmmmm this has possibilities if the police are in pursuit of a vehicle maybe they can bombard it with high energy rfi right so all the cops will be buying antique muscle cars for chase cars otherwise the police cars will die too i wonder if you could focus the rfi gun so the cops wouldn t have this problem mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article c usk h h athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes there is or was a microwave tower next to florida s turnpike and you could watch the cars hit the breaks as they came in sight of it every morning funny i and most of the detector owning friends i have are generally able to remember such things as nearby microwave towers and radar detectors going off in exactly the same spon every day i know on i at the grayson ky exit there s a store just off the side of the road think it s a liquor store with what must be a security system that would make most federal prisons proud it s the only thing i ve ever driven by besides a cop that puts my whistler in oh my god he s right behind you mode i simply ignore the detector and use my eyes when i drive by that store seconds later all s quiet on the front and no problem mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively pro tecting software best regards arno i strongly disagree i think most pirating is done by amateurs who won t copy the program if diskcopy can t do it if you re talking a max goal of pirated copies i bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can t be easily copied from a hard drive will suffice i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups no flames intended just my thoughts eric
sci.electronics	contracts for my computer law module i have been asked to write a computer contract for the supply of computer software to a business the software is being especially written for the company would anyone per chance happen to have a copy of a computer contract on their system which they could mail me if anyone has a computer contract but it contains sensitive material then i can assure them that it will remain confidential and i will not pass it on or allow anyone else to view it thanks t c l s hbl d a w c y e g f t k s m graham wilson lsg cck coventry ac uk ll b law iii coventry university s b g l y z n o x a u v j
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor it could be that you stored it somewhere that it could become covered by moisture or damp air which would short out the terminals the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the battery off the ground may help i m not sure if spraying with wd would be safe since it is very flammable high percentage petroleum just a thought chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept of computing science voice x de montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester uk le bh linux free unix for ibm pcs
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu i am not a battery expert but from recent reading a lead acid battery will self discharge at a relatively high rate and if stored in a discharged state will develop a condition i think is called sulfation in storage either the electrolyte should be removed and replaced for use fat chance i d ever do that at home or the battery should be stored on a trickle charge i have also i think read that the condition may be reversable if hooked up to a current limited charging circuit fro a long period of time the refernce i remember is to use c where c is the amp hours as the charging circuit and leave it hooked up for weeks some of this may only apply to gel type cells but i suspect the same applies to the liquid type richard dell
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article apr mtu edu cmwolf mtu edu engineer by day asleep by night writes dave martindale dave imax imax com wrote they require two separate grounds one ground goes to the ground pin of the outlet and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet s mounting tabs and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate if any i thought the ground was connected to the metal frame on the socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even if you win the rat race you re still a rat not in isolated ground recepticles usually an unusual color such as orange or yellow often used in low noise low leakage applications as mentioned earlier in the thread richard dell
sci.electronics	re packet radio on the pc koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever please e mail any info to koberg spot colorado edu thanks try rec radio packet michael a de kraker georgia state university internet regmad gsusgi gsu edu bitnet regmad gsuvm packet kd fkw w qo to iterate is human to recurse devine
sci.electronics	re uart needed really break detect in article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting a break is done by watching for a character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates a break there is no special way to detect break that i have found other than this there s no magic signal generated by uarts etc zilog scc rr break detect this is a very popular part but it has a number of quirks especially in hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two of the bits in the receiver status register you can enable an interrupt on either of these bits going high too also only one null will be put in the fifo per break detected this is simply the best serial chip i ve ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which is imho second best death to devices ii cccccc jim cathey ii sssscc isc bunker ramo ii cc taf c spokane wa iissss cc uucp uunet isc br jimc jimc isc br isc br com ii cccccc one design to rule them all one design to find them one design to bring them all and in the darkness bind them in the land of mediocrity where the pc s lie
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia s for the joysticks it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all later model might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years not according to the servicing documentation i have here the did not change intenally very much at all additionally i think the used k k and up to k of rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper k of the s address space k and k games were fine but later k and k games needed bank switching atari and others made much of these huge cartridges i have no idea how much ram it had to work with but i would hazard a guess of or k ram wrong it had bytes of ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom k of memory tia registers also sat in this address space as bytes of ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting as atari had provided no write line to the cart this was managed by mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters one way to make cheap trimmable resistors is to use a high wattage carbon composition resistor and saw a notch in it with a triangular file of course you can only increase the resistance not decrease it
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected cyborg kauri vuw ac nz xivo alex ivopol writes i believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes i would expect that cd rom software would not even need copy protection as the program on a cd rom would not fit onto a hard drive and it is impossible for the average and even not so average user to write to a cd rom copies of the software that still work could never be made hmmm now that i think about it with a creative tsr maybe disk swapping could be used to simulate files on a single disk you would need a tonne of disks though alex t ivopol cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university of wellington new zealand i speak for myself and no one else andrew scott internet ascott tartarus uwa edu au
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight the simplest and cheapest soft uv bulb is an ar argon bulb or other argon bulb it works like a neon bulb except it glows purple it will cause stuff to fluoresce it requires very little power just a battery an oscillator and a step up transformer to about volts electronic goldmine has several uv lamps both as pre built units and kits ask for their catalog
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article r jmoinn mb rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes in article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button now that indeed is possible a good friend of mine is running about kw pep from his car yes he does have a second alternator yes he calls the rig an electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio but i seem to remember that pep is actually x the real power which makes kw pep actually around w or was it x i disremember effective transmitted power is also odd in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry which is why a tv station with a kw klystron might advertise a megawatt if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower this is like sears hp though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages it s only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you ll feel it when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix on ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix on ca
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage or by the number of dancers on stage neat you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage can you tell us more about what you re doing sounds like a very cool program caleb strockbine cstrockb ic sunysb edu
sci.electronics	help high data link i have a couple applications for high speed data links replacement of ultrasonic signal coaxial cables with fiber optic cable applying fiber optic slip ring for channel ultrasonics inspection system for candu reactor inspection remote data link from ultrasonic pipeline inspection device including transfer of channels via microwave or other higher speed transfer of ultrasonic data from remote inspection head i would be happy to share sources other info as acquired please mail me or post here this is a long term upgrade over the next years thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro on ca ontario hydro automated ndt welding r d fax toronto canada
sci.electronics	re need to find out numb in article uupcb ozonehole com gerald belton ozonehole com gerald belton writes subject need to find out numb date apr gmt al there is a number you can call which will return a synthesized al voice telling you the number of the line unfortunately for the al life of me i can t remember what it is the telephone technicians al use it all the time we used to play around with this in our al dorm rooms since there were multiple phone lines running between al rooms it probably wouldn t help for you to post the number since it appears to be different in each area for what it s worth in the new orleans area the number is easy to remember what slmr ask me anything if i don t know i ll make up something here in our city dialing either newer exchanges or sic will get a synthesized message works great for having people call you back at unlabeled pay phones regards bill ronald w bill butts jr gentlemen gentlemen electrical engineering department you can t fight in here the wichita state university this is the war room butts shocker ee twsu edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups we ve destroyed about six sets of original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been a bad batch of disks don t have the faintest idea what happened to them they just went bad weren t stored near any magnetic fields or otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding a working set of disks to fix some of the machines that periodically go down i d say having working backups is a godsend i sure wish we d had them sometimes i think murphy s law holds true more often than newton s when we needed them i think it s sortof like snake antivenin of the time you have absolutely no use for it but when you need it boy do you ever need it i don t have backups of my originals at home but then my machine doesn t see anywhere near the use abuse of these here at the lab and so i consider it less of a risk still i usually make working copies of them when i install them and then eventually re use these working copies for something else no flames intended just my thoughts just mine too btw before anyone notices my mentioning copying programs from machine to machine when we do installs here and wonders about the licensing the upper management non student staff of course are meticulous in checking with providers of the software and making sure we are sticking to the license agreements mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re packet radio on the pc in article regmad gsusgi gsu edu regmad gsusgi gsu edu michael de kraker writes koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever michael a de kraker question about packet radio deleted georgia state university how about rec radio amateur packet at least at my site there is no general packet radio i e non amateur newsgroup that said i would definately subscribe to r r a packet if you want to learn about all aspects of amateur packet radio at both the high and low ends also i would get the faq from the group and then post any specific questions to that group everything i could tell you is probably in the faq and the people who really know what s going on all seem to be on r r a packet although they might be here too you never know hope it helps andy collins kc yey acollins uclink berkeley edu
sci.electronics	re radio electronics free information card in article c ulqg i acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog radio electronics sends each company a bunch of computer printed address labels for all the people who circled that company s number the company sends whatever it wants to normally a catalog michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r h r o p uniwa uwa edu au ascott tartarus uwa edu au andrew scott writes i would expect that cd rom software would not even need copy protection as the program on a cd rom would not fit onto a hard drive and it is impossible for the average and even not so average user to write to a cd rom copies of the software that still work could never be made hmmm now that i think about it with a creative tsr maybe disk swapping could be used to simulate files on a single disk you would need a tonne of disks though there are many programs on cd rom that fit on a harddisk not all software is that big but we re getting there guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only ones michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	re atari processors ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a for those who would like to know the was a without irq or nmi and with only address lines giving k memory space it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn t know about it being called the thats the cia found in the commodore i don t believe this chip existed when the was around the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes of page and shadowed in the bottom bytes of page to get an image on the screen you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what x positions to take how many duplicates you wanted etc then do it all again for the next line this took all of the processor s time during the visible portion of the display there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all the ram was mapped into the top bytes of page and shadowed in page the has a zero page addressing mode on most instructions that is both shorter and faster than the normal ones so it is important on a machine like this to have the scratchpad ram in page unfortunately it also wants its stack to be in page the stack pointer is bits and the high byte of the address is hardwired to the iot section was mapped into page somewhere bit i o registers can t remember if each bit could be independantly set to i or o like the and and bit timer with a programmable prescaler i think this was some power of there were no interrupts in the system so many games would set up the timer at some known time go away and do something else for a while then sit and wait for the timer to run down there was no logic in the box to do address decoding the riot had at least chip select pins probably one active high one active low and i imagine the tia was much the same various address lines were fed directly to chip selects the likes to have rom right at the top of memory so the had to use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal so some cartriges had a in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select john west
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something kasey chang guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only ones michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	anyone build anything interesting with pic c x devices i ve just started programming with the pic c and i d like talk to similar like minded people have you built anything interesting if so i d be interested in talking about various aspects yes i already have the application sheets assembler simulator cheers stuart stuart lea tel fax umist university janet sl uk ac mcc nessie b main bldg po box internet sl nessie mcc ac uk manchester uk m qd weather is here wish you were beautiful
sci.electronics	looking for nc telecaption decoder module does any one know where i can get a telecaption decoder module need it to build a close caption decoder thanks wayne wait till finals are over that is when the fun really begins enjoy the sun while its still young and out there when one dreams of his home town he is not wishing that everything could be as it was but he wishes that he was still young to enjoy it all again
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z i once wrote such a program in bbc basic it was very crude and took around seconds to do an exhaustive search with a small amount of intelligence and told you the best combination rq and the best below rq if you want to write one just store the prefered values in an array and then search the solution space using three nested loops i m sure you could knock this up in an hour christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet juha
sci.electronics	pcmcia newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject pcmcia does anyone know who to contact to obtain a copy of the pcmcia standard thanks mv olx td procontrol kemptville on pm
sci.electronics	electronic design mag newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject electronic design does anyone know the telephone number for the circulation department of electronic design magazine mv olx td procontrol kemptville on pm
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr dmu ac uk cph dmu ac uk chris hand writes carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i think it s because the lead gets coated with lead oxide if the battery is not being charged or discharged i remember some advice from an ancient car manual guide my father had which was to use car batteries to power a garage clock or something similar when they re not in a car this is supposed to prevent the oxidation but i ve no idea if it really works the concrete floor connection is a red herring it could be that you stored it somewhere that it could become covered by moisture or damp air which would short out the terminals this may contribute to discharging but would be reversible the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the well this is off topic but back in the days when i used to drive bangers i never found wd to do anything that wiping with a dry cloth did nt do i think the effectiveness of wd is a myth invented by the guy who owns the company battery off the ground may help i m not sure if spraying with wd would be safe since it is very flammable high percentage petroleum just a thought chris steve collyer
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article nx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago it seems to me that the original question was for advice on his problem not a history lesson i think that if this question comes up from time to time then people should get a civil answer the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem could anyone please explain what happens with a battery and is there any cure to get it back into life michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article r f kp uniwa uwa edu au john gu uwa edu au john west writes ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes wrong it has a for those who would like to know the was a without irq or nmi and with only address lines giving k memory space yes but still not a for those differences same instruction set of course it had one custom chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn t know about it being called the thats the cia found in the commodore i don t believe this chip existed when the was around yes the same number but an entirely different device i should have qualified this further by stating that this was the pal version of the tia i am not sure that the ntsc tia would have a different number the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes of page and shadowed in the bottom bytes of page to get an image on the screen you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what x positions to take how many duplicates you wanted etc then do it all again for the next line this took all of the processor s time during the visible portion of the display does anyone on the net actually have details of the tia as this is the only device i have not yet discovered details about atari australia when asked claimed that their attempts to get the programmers documentation for the had failed as the us head office had refused to provide it to chip selects the likes to have rom right at the top of memory so the had to use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal so some cartriges had a in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select i saw a couple of cheaper devices with pn s and a couple of resistors hooked up as a cheap inverter nasty but workable and cheaper than a inverter if labor costs almost nothing ian
sci.electronics	looking for z sti mk by mostek hi i am looking an integrated circuits for my z based computer the circuit is called z sti serial timer interrupt mk and made by mostek mostek is called sgs thompson today i have been in contact with sgs thompson unfortunately they me told that z sti is obsolete so my question is if anyone know if i can get hold of that circuits are there any companies that specialize in selling circuits that are no longer in production i have contacted several electronic brokers in sweden but without any success i would appreciate if you could give me hint where i should continue looking even companies in the united states would be fine since this circuit is pretty crucial to me thanks in advance thomas thor royal institute of technology stockholm sweden
sci.electronics	re help me i m not clever how to make power supply in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu skelton joel phillip writes i need to make a power supply that can take input from a cigarette lighter in a car v dc and drive volts at up to amps i know enough to know that a simple voltage divider with two resistors won t do it right can such a thing be made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps bf p s i ve looked for premade things like this at radio shack but none of it seems to go any higher than about ma joel skelton north avenue trade school dept of round things gt a prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive see if radio shack has a national semiconductor adjustable voltage regulator national part number lm t or lm k these devices are rated for an input to output differential of up to volts amps digi key corp has these parts as well as several other useful regulators if you don t have their catalog their phone number is i can only guess that you may intend to recharge a vdc nicad battery with this device and if i m right you may want to look through some of the hobbiest books to get various ideas for battery charging circuits first if you get stuck e mail me your fax number if you have one and i ll send you some suggestions or schematics e mail willisw coe nw clemson edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c x a h ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own agree personally i cannot flip from page to page on a screen and retain information as easily as in the written page off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups we ve destroyed about six sets of original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been a bad batch of disks don t have the faintest idea what happened to them they just went bad weren t stored near any magnetic fields or otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding a working set of disks to fix some of the machines that periodically go down i d say having working backups is a godsend i sure wish we d had them sometimes i think murphy s law holds true more often than newton s when we needed them i think it s sortof like snake antivenin of the time you have absolutely no use for it but when you need it boy do you ever need it ditto s in fact at work where things are dead if the backup is no good i insist on having at least a level backup system it seems that whenever you have good backups you never need them but if you don t have them murphy guarantees that you ll suffer for it i don t have backups of my originals at home but then my machine doesn t see anywhere near the use abuse of these here at the lab and so i consider it less of a risk still i usually make working copies of them when i install them and then eventually re use these working copies for something else no flames intended just my thoughts just mine too and mine of course richard dell
sci.electronics	wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete stephen dogmatix inmos co uk stephen collyer writes the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the well this is off topic but back in the days when i used to drive bangers i never found wd to do anything that wiping with a dry cloth did nt do i think the effectiveness of wd is a myth invented by the guy who owns the company back in high school i used to work for a detailing company and one of the services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure washer so we would use one several miles from the shop on more than one occasion after washing the engine it would not start as water would have gotten under the distributor i would put a plastic bag around it to try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and it would be nearly impossible to try and wipe all these areas down with a dry rag the usual solution was to carry a can of wd and when the car wouldn t start to spray all the likely areas and it would then start on the very first time it may be a myth but it certainly kept me from being stranded at a car wash rodney radford computer graphics imaging sasrer unx sas com sas institute inc x cary nc
sci.electronics	microstepping does anyone know where to get a schematic for a micro stepping circuit any help would be appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	hm or hm i have some mice that have a chip numbered hm and hm i have not been able to find information on these any help would be appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	switching ps questions greetings i ve recently decided to chuck the linear regulators and learn the black magic art of switching power supplies before anyone flames me i know both have their place anyways i ve built the basic up down converters with pretty good results efficiency but i m running into problems when i try to design build anything that puts out serious amps i know it can be done i have some v a guts on my bench but something puzzles me i m using a simple choke as the storage element basicly a toroid with a single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error feedback but some of the others seem to loose me what are they for better than that anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of i d love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume my other problems in getting high amps good efficiency are lack of sources of ideal components calculated and limited knowledge of the whole topic i m doing this on my own not school mind you in fact i have yet to take any course that covers transistors so is the answer to the accumulation of dead commercial models and truning into a scavanger not that it s not what i m doing now and getting understanding schematics and a bit more of the mind boggling theory take care p s my goal is v a in car battery vac out and on the other end v vdc a v a vdc a and vdc a the distance between the two will be more than feet of gauge but less than feet would like to have a working model in a year or so do i have a chance to make it filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete michael covington mcovingt aisun ai uga edu wrote this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem ditto the only remote and i do say remote possibility is that if the ground was real cold f the battery might freeze an split but then it would probably freeze anyway charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu what happens is that i heard this discussed on northern exposure there is a molecular juxtaposition of the molecules in the battery and the molecules in the concrete this acts as an attractant to ufos actually their crew members and they arrive at the scene of the battery concrete combination then they proceed to suck all the energy out of the batteries remedy set the battery on a nonconcrete floor jack
sci.electronics	caller id chip info requested i just got caller id except bell calls it call display and didn t know what i was talking about when i asked for caller id i got the cheapest display box i could find and hope to convert it to serial out the chip used is an pin dip marked cdt and i presume the is the date i m hoping somebody out there knows something about this chip to save me a very strange few hours hooked up to a scope asking my friends to call me again and again i ll post any interesting replies and my experiences simon tooke simon sco com
sci.electronics	pin out for c does anyone know the pin outs for the c eprom i have bought several of them none of which has come with the pin outs any info would be appreciated sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	question on addressing i have a question about accessing certain addresses on a chip particulary a c eprom although i don t know that much about it as i understand it there s a pin on the chip that when voltage is applied kicks up the address the question is how do you determine how many bytes the address is incremented by for example if i have code i want to be accessed at and also at say how do i move the address pointer to those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products much deleted about assembly in usa vs other i wish to focus on the subject of warm running amplifiers sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that s how you get an amp to sound incredibly good an amp that runs hot has no bearing on how it s gonna sound the amp you have probably is running class a the whole day because either the engineer or manufacturer of that amp wanted to skimp on heatsinking or cooling to save costs hmmmmm there is a correclation between warm running amps and good sound or in your words it does have a bearing on now i don t suggest that everyone run out and create combination stove amplifiers that will degrade lifespan but a cold running circuit is much more suceptible to temperature variation with varrying current than is a warm running one and since junction resistance is a function of temperature this has a detrimental effect on linearity a few facts bias points vary with temperature junction resist varrie with temp adcom products do not run class a if you still don t beleive this assertion consider the warm up requirements for most good test equipment or better yet just listen to an amplifier warm up on many designs its quite audible on mine about minutes for the output stage many hours for the drivers fortunately the drivers are not switched in any experiment or when drawing conclusions from listening betcareful to seperate the effect of device temperature from bias idle current level both have a positive correlation with low distortion and good sound quality and high bias results in warmer operation all other factors being equal grant
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help the first step is to make sure that there is no dc component intentional or not on the audio lines to be switched if neither the output or input presents an unintentional dc level let s say they re capacitively coupled then putting a k resistor from each input to ground and from the output to ground is a good precaution against leakage in any coupling caps presenting a dc level that is guaranteed to cause a click if the device presents an unintentional dc level that is from more than just coupling capacitor leakage then you need to remove the dc before switching with coupling capacitors of your own if you have more than one relay each relay switching one input through to a common output you can use make before break switching where for a brief instant both sources are connected during a switch change this may mask the switch click an audio switch that is clickless is made by taking a light bulb and making your own ersatz opto isolator with a light dependent resistor ldr sealed inside a piece of black heatshrink many broadcast consoles use this older but time honored technique claro actually makes a complete optisolator like this but i don t have a part number handy radio shack has a ldr grab bag you might want to try for a simple solid state clickless switch that is cheap you might try looking at the cd analog switch that is commonly available or its older predecessor the again the dc component must be removed prior to switching other alternatives include jfet switches both discrete and ic and diode switching which works relatively well surprisingly all the above with their pitfalls and application tips could easily make a subject for a multi page article solid state switches may induce a click of their own when turned on due to charge being injected into the audio line through device capacitance when the control signal changes state techniques to minimize this include lowering the impedance of the signal paths through the switch differential switching and slowing the risetime of the control pulse with the cutting the click can be as simple as putting k k resistors in series with the control pins hope this helps at least get you started dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards any info in the bios is too volatile to use as a checksum are you going to require that a user re install all their software if they add mb of ram to their computer i did that a couple of weeks ago it s in the bios and if software had told me this isn t the machine you installed me on i would never have used that software again really bad idea i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this is by far the best idea you presented in your post making it plainly obvious who registered is going to stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going to answer joe blow to the question of what s your name so this won t stop them in the long run pirates are always going to win this fight they simply have more time to work on the software and figure out the protection scheme steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask me about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that probably but the point is the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why it s not hindering you in any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card kasey chang
sci.electronics	re need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video vs a blank screen by monitoring the r g and b outputs of a graphics card it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at mhz which would mean detecting a ns pulse it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen about mv and a dim screen say around mv oh yes it also needs to be cheap my first circuit was a dismal failure i used compariators each compariator had the input going to one of the guns the input went to a reference created by a voltage divider a potentiometer the first problem was that the compariator was way too slow i needed to get several pixels in a row before it would fire the compariators so i could have a whole screen full of text but my the second problem is that there was more noise on the reference then the smallest difference between a blank screen and a dim screen in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only mv i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work there are faster compariators but they are expensive and require split supplies i would need to replace my quad compariator with three compariators and create a whole new power supply circuit at this point i think what i need is some sort of transistor circuit transistors are fast and cheap and should do the trick unfortunately i am way out of my league when it comes to designing transistor circuits so i am appealing to the net for help any ideas tips circuits pointers references etc would be greatly appreciated oh yes i only sample the output of this thing every second or so so i don t need a fast response time at all however i haven t found a way to take advantage of that fact thanks a lot for any help anybody might be able to give of course you will have my undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed on midi verity jack sns com in order to get the ns response time you need you are better off going to an ecl slicer which can run off a single or v supply you just need to bias or do some level shifting perhaps to get it in the range check out the ecl k books for a simple cheap solution dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	info wanted about standard phone line greetings i m a novice in this area i m trying to gather info on standard phone line settings quick questions if i just want to send out a beep over the phone lines can i do it with some function generator tie it up to one of those phone wires which one of those wires should i connect to my dtmf chip as audio in any help would be much appreciated thankx in advance handy trisakti uc mizzou missouri edu
sci.electronics	re voltage regulation and current limiting acollins uclink berkeley edu andy collins writes one not so quick question to throw out there for you guys for our class project we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs voltatge adjustable from v current limited at a voltage must stay within of designated value for i from a ac ripple less than mv rms of course we can t just use an adjustable voltage current limiting regulator chip our problem is with the current limiting i e we ve found stuff to do the rest of the parts of the circuit what the supply must do if presented with a load which would draw more than a given the supply voltage is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal one amp thus if we were to short the thing with the ammeter we should read one amp if we measure the current through a ohm resistor at v we should read one amp and the output voltage by necessity must be v the only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output power transistor and therefore reduce the output so does anybody have any ideas we could work from thanks in advance andy collins kc yey acollins uclink berkeley edu ps if anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project i agree fully but i still have to do it its graded you can design for ramp shutoff brick wall current limit or even fold back cutoff sounds like you want brick wall current limit your lead is correct to pull down the bias to the series regulator base drive in order to get the brick wall you need enough voltage gain on the current sensor normally a darlington on the current sensing resistor will be adequate but for infinite gain use an op amp to sense the current releative to a stable voltage reference and use a driver to turn off the base bias on the series pass transistor phase compensation may be necessary with this closed loop control system if yopu have more than degrees phase shift in your feedabck circuit at unity gain ok dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z cheers ian h when trying to choose a resistor with a tolerance better than you need a trimmer or to screen devices it can t be made from adding resitors of value in parallel since the smaller device will have the error of to cope with you have choices a live with the error of tolerance devices for low q circuits or low sensitivity designs b buy resistors with better than tolerance vishay dale c use trimmers or sot s select on test dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	blue led s so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s just out of curiosity of course inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown baden inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	tran tube i ve got a pr a eimac unused transmitter tube for sale best offer so far is that s getting close to what i ll sell it for hamfest prices have been about it works guaranteed original packaging dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr news cs tut fi kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet juha the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white as boards evolved more and more demands were made of them first boards were used mainly in audio circuitry couldn t be used in high voltage or rf because it would arc and burn most boards today are fiberglass the type being chosen by its use and cost boards in satellite and microwave communication are teflon and ceramic as the fiberglass and other boards are conductive they actually work more as a capacitive dialectric but the word conductive simplifies explaination at the high frequencies another printed circuit material used mainly in automotive and interconnections is a thin flexible mostly mylar material and is used to connect the front of the vehicle etc to the back instead of wiring harnesses camcorders use this to intereconnect the boards inside where wires would be a nuisance am working on a generator made by hewlet packard right now and the entire board is gold plated boy it looks expensive hope i got most of my facts right as i am working from memory of material read my education was pre transister tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	harris semiconductor s answerfax information h h a rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss h h a a r r r r i s hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr i ssss h h a a r r r r i s h h a a r r r r iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax is on line hours a day days a week so you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes by using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number to call is it is not set up to do international calls at this time the general decision tree for the answerfax is as follows the numbers are the available selections welcome to harris semiconductors answerfax select if you select for an are familiar with explanation of answerfax answerfax select to order select for a a document the list of catalogs document list is new products in the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog do you want to order do you want to order anything else if yes anything else if yes you will be taken back you will be taken back to the selection decision to the selection decision what is phone number for your fax what is your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life is but a candle and a dream will give it flame rush caress of steel
sci.electronics	mk data needed hi could someone please send me enough info to talk to a mk it s some kind of multifunction peripheral chip made by mostek i believe any help would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance dave ddexter solaria mil wi us technology thru broken parts
sci.electronics	data paging info wanted hello i m looking for information on alphanumeric pagers and how the data is sent from the paging transmitter and how i would go about building a device to decode the paging data like my pager does and feed it though an rs port i m planning on seperating different paging messages and different pagers in software to keep amount of hardware i need down does anyone know what chips motorola are good for decoding numeric and alphanumeric paging data and then stuffing it down an rs port basically any baud rate is fine i already have a radio reciever with headphone level output for the audio signal from the paging tower but i d be interested in anything you know about pagers including the type of radio recievers they use thanks in advance theo email theo walt caps maine edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that probably but the point is the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why it s not hindering you in any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card kasey chang i m glad to see this idea come up because i ve had something similar in mind what if you had an authorization key that computed from the name and address data when the user registers you don t even need to send executable code just compute his her key and send him her instructions to enter in the appropriate place the following name joe doe address main street city anytown ca key ldslfoialsdkcdsngsikhsfd every user needs a unique key the executable can propagate as much as you like the author can respond to the registration by e mail post card whatever unauthorized users would have to put up with someone else s name showing up maybe on a main menu screen as well as a startup message authorized users can make as many copies as they like upgrade their machines whatever the main motivation here is guilt and irritation at seeing someone other than yourself as the registered owner
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh
sci.electronics	re pin out for c in article skelly aw amiganet chi il us skelly amiganet chi il us sean kelly writes does anyone know the pin outs for the c eprom i have bought several of them none of which has come with the pin outs any info would be appreciated a good source of information for data of this type is the library in particular the library at a local college or technical school offering courses in electronics would have data books of this nature
sci.electronics	for sale omti st rll to scsi adapters i have omti scsi adapters for sale these make an st rll drive look like a scsi disk drive each adapter will support two rll drives i have used this model omti adapter with my amiga a and a c ltd scsi host adapter without problems i m selling these because i got them about the same time i decided to sell instead of expand my amiga so i have never even used them i can t guarantee they will work with every scsi host adapter they are essentially new in box i paid ea make me an offer regards todd little pecan enet dec com
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article qf ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes i gave up after a year of letters and phone calls i got the impression the fcc was powerless and it was up to the cable company to correct the situation isn t there some formal action a citizen can take that requires the fcc to at least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates railroad ave swampscott ma usa
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes in article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh it s not the temperature it s the karma you see dirt has good karma since it s all organic and full of living things but cement is all squared off and artificial looking and has lost its karma in the process being a karma sink it sucks all of the good karma out of the battery which is no longer able to keep a charge because wood is also good and organic putting a board between the battery and the cement will fix the problems the buddha nature is in the acid but it is also in the lead plate the novice asked the master whether the spongy lead had more of the karma or whether the solid lead had it the master handed the novice a v b battery terminals downward and thus the novice was enlightened scott
sci.electronics	re question on addressing in article skelly c amiganet chi il us skelly amiganet chi il us sean kelly writes i have a question about accessing certain addresses on a chip particulary a c eprom although i don t know that much about it as i understand it there s a pin on the chip that when voltage is applied kicks up the address the question is how do you determine how many bytes the address is incremented by for example if i have code i want to be accessed at and also at say how do i move the address pointer to those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex judging by your sig you are trying to make some kind of game cartridge information of how to build an eeprom cartidge for the vectrex is available via anonymous ftp at csus edu since you ve chosen the c you are probably trying to make a multicart to do this simply load the game images into the eeprom at etc your eeprom burner software may allow this or you will have to assemble the images into one file yourself with suitable gaps wire up the cartridge with the lower address bits going to the game console and the high bits going to switches to choose between games to directly answer your question above the pin that kicks up the address is simply another address line for a concrete example with the c and k games images you would wire a a to the cartridge and a a to switches the switches would allow you to pick from the games on the eeprom
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au j pethybridge writes hello again i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc if you are just getting sick of the real estate used by the hct you could always use the approach i have seen one designer take he stuck the chip in the middle of the eprom socket under the eprom naturally you have to use an ic socket with the right dimensions but layout is really easy steven murray
sci.electronics	re question on addressing correction a little correction on my previous post about an hour ago please replace the term eeprom with the term eprom wherever it appears don t not why i added that extra e every time
sci.electronics	re help with phone wire which ones are tip ring in article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin wrote i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin assuming you are refering to standard pots or ground start lines if you are looking at loop start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor is the one with approximately to vdc with respect to ground while the tip conductor is at or very near ground potential be sure to reference the telco ground when taking your measurements if you are dealing with ground start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor will be the one with approximately to vdc while the tip conductor would look like it s floating you may see some potential from line capacitance it will bleed off over time remember to use the telco ground as your reference when making measurements caprice sport coupe
sci.electronics	luser hi i am looking for a very high speed d a converter at least bits and mhz for a research application a paper in the january issue of ieee solid state circuits mentions a gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where i can find such a thing even a somewhat slower si dac would do needless to say i have looked in all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would be appreciated seema varma
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards opinion is understandable i assume you have a tape drive not all of us have about floppies around for backup you know any info in the bios is too volatile to use as a checksum are you going to require that a user re install all their software if they add mb of ram to their computer i did that a couple of weeks ago it s in the bios and if software had told me this isn t the machine you installed me on i would never have used that software again really bad idea ram is something you add all the time so no it s more like bios manufacturer and or processor type etc data cannot be used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates on a diskette on the other hand to make this less intrusive it could be disguised as please insert original disk xx as i need file yyyyyy for update it would be perfectly reasonable sort of i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone of course it is easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what is your point you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable i know x and x assembly quite well thank you i know exactly which two bytes need to be changed i have the code to do them too i just said don t ask me which ones i didn t say i don t know what that means such hacking can be easily discouraged by adding anti patching code which does a self check upon execution and refuse to load if crc does not match value stored encrypted of course in the program it could be claimed as a part of anti virus code and it would not be far from the truth what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this is by far the best idea you presented in your post making it plainly obvious who registered is going to stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going to answer joe blow to the question of what s your name so this won t stop them in the long run did anyone read what i wrote that is not what i wrote or meant what i said was the program should have certain restriction such as the restrict to one machine until the program is registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with a patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered to xxx screen pirates are always going to win this fight they simply have more time to work on the software and figure out the protection scheme of course they will but that was not my point the purpose of copy protection is to discourage casual pirates oh can i have a copy of that sure here and the less sophisticated pirates let s look for all those calls to int h any one determined enough to break copy protection can and will succeed they can always backtrace the entire load sequence of the program the point of copy protection is to make such attempts take as long as possible while not intruding upon the uses or to minimize such intrusion of legitimate use pirates who see copy protection as a challenge love breaking them and no amount of copy protection will stop them but the rest of us will be stopped how many of these hardcore pirates are there compared to rest of us not that many kasey chang
sci.electronics	what exactly is an ibm slc processor could someone please tell me if the slc and slc processors ibm is putting in their thinkpad s and other pc s is a real with a math coprocessor or if it is really some kludge that should not be called a at all thanks eric eric w braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte am ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article c x e nx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem the concrete floor accelerates the problem because it is a heat sink and a colder lead acid battery self discharges at a slightly faster rate that s why the old wives tale of sitting it on a piece of wood on the floor works to help keep from killing the battery as fast it insulates the battery thermally it you ll set the battery down on a piece of styrofoam it will self discharge even slower the best thing would be to attach a small load such as a small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave it on constantly but also trickle charge it every couple days too to shallow cycle the charge in the battery such mild exercising of a lead acid battery is the next best thing to completely removing the electrolyte for storage if you do remove the electrolyte may sure you keep separate storage containers for each cell s electrolyte and put it back into the same cells when you refill the battery this isn t so critical for a brand new battery in a fully charged state but will maximize the restored output of an older battery which may not be fully charged when you remove the electrolyte for storage neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why i don t see any way that the concrete floor could do anything to the battery however you would have been better off leaving them outside keeping them cold would have been better for them than bringing them inside a warm battery will self discharge faster than a cold one when you are storing a battery it s a good idea to charge it once a month letting a battery go completely dead is bad for it i suspect this is what caused your problems robert wiegand motorola inc wiegand rtsg mot com disclamer i didn t do it i was somewhere else at the time
sci.electronics	need help finding parts ok i posted this b but blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection on vhs tape hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes thanks in advance ka lun pang a k a andy lost between frequency and time on the unit circle email klp doe carleton ca dod
sci.electronics	d g h type amplifiers hey can someone clue me in on these and other weird types of amplifiers just a brief intro to the concepts behind these would be cool i have the clues on type a b and ab already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and i dont know what they do i think type d is like a pwm scheme or something thanx in advanced mark my andrew cmu edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable and even that doesn t help there are at least two programs available that fixes this unp and dislite both available from simtel and even without them it isn t that hard to fix
sci.electronics	re food deydrators article of sci electronics newsgroups sci electronics path news nd edu spool mu edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schuch from schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch subject food dehydrators message id apr phx mcd mot com sender news phx mcd mot com nntp posting host bopper phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group tempe az distribution usa date mon apr est lines does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i ve been seeing all over late night tv recently i was wondering if they use forced air heat or both if there s heat involved anybody know what temperature they run at my wife would like one and i m not inclined to pay for a box a fan and a heater seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks heck the technology is only what years old john try mother earth news feb march pg build a food dryer john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller terra lab systems admin
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard writes the concrete floor accelerates the problem because it is a heat sink and a colder lead acid battery self discharges at a slightly faster rate that s why the old wives tale of sitting it on a piece of wood on the floor works to help keep from killing the battery as fast it insulates the battery thermally it you ll set the battery down on a piece of styrofoam it will self discharge even slower there are a number of inaccuracies here in fact a colder battery will self discharge more slowly this is why batteries should be stored in a cool dry place an battery placed on concrete does not become colder than one placed on wood the battery the wood and the concrete will all be at the same general temperature ignoring temperature fluctuations and thus none will effect the other the best thing would be to attach a small load such as a small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave it on constantly but also trickle charge it every couple days too to shallow cycle the charge in the battery such mild exercising of a lead acid battery is the next best thing to completely removing the electrolyte for storage there is no need to exercise the battery just keep it charged a trickle charger will do the job stuff deleted
sci.electronics	help need p would anyone have a few extra p s lying around that i could buy off of them problem is that around here i can only perchase them in quantities and i don t need this and can t take this financially right now if anyone can accomodate me with this please reply to both for the following mailing addresses thanks baden de bari baden sys bison mb ca o o baden inqmind bison mb ca true life can only be experianced by those who do not fear death
sci.electronics	re atari processors i m a hacker from the old days let s see how much trouble i can get into by telling you what you want to know eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy ms sj ca chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills ca
sci.electronics	cellular antennas i need to get some info a s a p about the cellular antenna market out there right now who are the main companies making them how much do they cost what are the specs such as gain directivity etc and who is the contact person because a group of us here are at the univ of il are researching into this technology i will personally mail you a copy of our entire busineess plan and paper if you can be of any help e mail me at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	cellular antennas i need to know about the market for cellular antenna technology today who are the main companies in the market how much are they selling them for who are the contact people what are the specs i will mail oyou our reserach so far if youcan help us erini ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	audio electronic parts esp in los angeles i m working on an audio mixer project but i m having trouble finding parts i want to use op amps for the gain control stages the ones i have found that are good for audio are lm and lm but i cannot find either of these in the electronic parts places i ve looked are there any good substitute op amps and or are there any parts suppliers in the la area that carry this kind of thing kohm dual audio taper slider pots would be nice too any info would be appreciated thanks in advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes discussion on piracy deleted off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups my own practice with new software make a copy of the original floppies to a second set of floppies install to hard drive from second set of floppies put originals in a box in room number one put copies in box in room number two accidents do happen to original floppies accidents can happen to the installation floppy sometimes software goes out on floppies that are just marginally good or gets too close to a magnet in shipping or storage i ve had experience with something like the last i purchased a compiler from a reputable vendor the debugger in the package just would not install to the hard drive no way repeated floppy to floppy copies finally got a clean read of the disk i don t recall if i used diskcopy copy b or xcopy i made a second copy of the marginal floppy and installed from that no problenms except with my typing since i regard backup floppies as cheap insurance just my side of the question bob
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports in article c slmb w cup hp com dclaar cup hp com doug claar writes while driving through the middle of nowhere i picked up knbr am a clear channel station based in los angeles knx am in la will be unhappy to hear about this i m sure isn t knbr in the bay area jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari writes so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light source solid state electronic devices ben g streetman d ed prentice hall right planet wrong universe douglas adams if we took the bones out it wouldn t be crunchy mr whizzo
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i wrote a commercial program called game maker can you guess what it does what we do is have a document protect answer question on page x line y which is a real pain we also allow the user to register by sending in a card and computing a based on their name the system works in that we ve gotten lots of registration cards i hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called up my support one with a question the other wanting to buy our graphics libraries right anyway if anyone wants to help me catch a cracker and has the cracked version mail me i won t accuse you unless you re the cracker of course andy stone stonea suned cs yale edu andy stone stonea suned cs yale edu
sci.electronics	re blue led s in c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari writes so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you he s mistaken they exist the semiconductor is silicon carbide and they are inefficient and expensive the bandgap is around ev don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light the ones i have are clear plastic pray tell what would make a typical led emit blue light david josephson davidj rahul net
sci.electronics	how to drive an array of leds i have a project in mind that requires an array of leds that can be addressed individually by a microprocessor say x or so is there an lsi that is designed to drive an led array including ram to hold the array state or failing that some way of multiplexing the display so i don t have to latch a bit for each led using a discrete latch i want to avoid having a huge board covered with s if possible thanks in advance phil torre ptorre u washington edu
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards radio shack stores sell them here in the states not sure if intertan is carrying these for australia or not cost is usd you charge them under a fluorescent then they glow when exposed to ir paul opitz radio shack publications
sci.electronics	looking for toshiba ta specs i m looking for some specs for a toshiba ta bp it appears to be a power amp housed in a pin inline package and is used in my mitsubishi vcr circa as a dc motor controller for the tape drive checking in the oldest ic master i have i don t see it listed and it appears to have been discontinued if anyone has anything on this part i d be greatly indebted thanks in advance aaron
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home clewis ferret ocunix on ca chris lewis writes in article r jmoinn mb rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov sc in article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org doug in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea wri hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button now that indeed is possible a good friend of mine is running about kw pep from his car yes he does have a second alternator yes he calls the rig an electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio but i seem to remember that pep is actually x the real power which makes kw pep actually around w or was it x i disremember effective transmitted power is also odd in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry which is why a tv station with a kw klystron might advertise a megawatt if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower this is like sears hp though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages it s only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you ll feel it when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix on ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix on ca it sorta depends on what you drive i remember running a two channel motorola with a vibrator power supply and about tubes in a volkwagen the poor little v generator had a heck of a time and if you keyed the mic at night you needed to be stationary because your lights got awful dim isn t progress wonderful emd ham almanac bc ca robert smits ladysmith bc
sci.electronics	cleaning electronic equipment hi just a quick question what standard lab solvents can be used to clean electronic equipment and components safely ie not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl etc i am not an electronics type surprise surprise and i want to avoid using freons thanks adrian
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i strongly disagree i think most pirating is done by amateurs who won t copy the program if diskcopy can t do it i hate to disagree but i will note i don t pirate software nor do i trade it i simply have met and talked extensively with those who have that s it the fbi can tap someone else s phone most pirating is done by people who don t use the programs they pirate a cracked program tends to get passed on resplendant in the various graphics and animations that advertise whoever performed the modification s i admit that a large portion of the business world is involved in giving copies of programs to one s fellow workers maybe taking it home for use on one s own pc but such trading tends to be interdepartmental or at most spread throughout the business as a whole how many times have you had someone walking from business to business letting people copy disks it s mostly a matter of convenience a person sees a program they want to use and they feel justified in making a copy since someone s already paid for it etc etc a note this is starting to change a bit not much though if you re talking a max goal of pirated copies i bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can t be easily copied from a hard drive will suffice what about commercially available copy programs copyii how about programs like teledisk that can do things diskcopy can t and before anyone disputes this because they feel that those who would copy wouldn t know about this after working with people around computers one comes to realize that the average user doesn t know much any computer enthusiast is at least x better at pre guessing commands and how to use them can you sit down and use something without reading the manual and it is these people who are doing the pirating not joe windows user who can t remember a few arguments to the dir command i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find really i find it evens out the online stuff can be read through faster but you re stuck reading it in linear flow start to finish unless you jump ahead with a search or such a book though you can flip through faster than you can read text on a screen and they usually have a nifty index too but i partially agree i often wish i could grep something that was written down off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups what if they need to re install the idea of a backup still holds if the original disk goes bad they re out of luck for about weeks which is the usual turn around time for a company to send a new set of disks if they ll do it without a charge edward w jajko the nekomancer ejajko hertz elee calpoly edu mein fuhrer i can walk doctor strangelove
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article cstrockb apr csws cs sunysb edu cstrockb cs sunysb edu caleb strockbine writes could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage or by the number of dancers on stage neat you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage can you tell us more about what you re doing sounds like a very cool program tis only a gleam in my eye at this point i have yet to chose a tracking method the initial requirement was to design a system to locate a dancer in one of eight zones across the stage i did some experiments with pyroelectric detectors and found them difficult to align to get a definite zone transition and dancers stand still alot so their ir signature goes away the good thing about pryoelectrics is that their signal is proportional to the size of the warm body or body part and the velocity of said body this could be useful for detecting the intensity of a dance gesture dancers also really hate to wear little boxes and batteries strapped on their bodies but they really need to be emitting some kind of signal to be tracked the current toy i have been working with is a program called mandala for the amiga used with a live video digitizer this works with a video camera trained on the stage you can set thresholds for a zone within the field of view and an object brighter than the threshold will trigger an event events can be midi objects or sequences amiga sounds or graphic objects it s been fun to play with but the documentaion is arcane and the digitizer is noisy still it s very appealing the dancers don t have to wear any appliances you can have ots of zone s it speaks midi which can be used to control lights and i don t have to build any electronics it s all done with lighting and video brightness and contrast adjustments i have yet to do anything particularly useful or artistic but i have hopes
sci.electronics	re need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video vs a blank screen by monitoring the r g and b outputs of a graphics card it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at mhz which would mean detecting a ns pulse it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen about mv and a dim screen say around mv oh yes it also needs to be cheap in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only mv i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work try a differential amplifier put back to back diodes between the collectors restrict the voltage swing have ma flow with ohm collector rs and keep the stray c below pf try n s run collector to your logic allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light um your professor if just plain wrong although blue leds are one heck of a lot less efficient than red ones typical visible light leds don t really exist leds have a fairly narrow region of transmittence since the fermi energy around either side of the band gap falls off exponentially blah blah source solid state electronic devices ben g streetman d ed prentice hall you might want to check the copyright date on that blue leds most certainly do exist i ve got a bunch at work cree research makes them probably along with other companies cree is big in materials science though they advertise in the stuff like physics today etc you can buy them from jameco i think digikey definitely and plenty of other distributors actually these days you can get a typical visible light led it s called a rainbow led and i ve forgotten who makes it they advertise in edn and many of the other trade rags though it combines a reg green and blue led all on one chip and has four leads nifty device although it s probably fairly expensive joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection sburton dres dnd ca stan burton writes i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages anyone claiming that real watts isn t possible in a mobile should dig through their back issues of and i think qst for a description of the mobile installation of that most revered of oms w am as i recall this included a heath kw dc in amp what was that model number sb something my mind is turning to the usual friday mush and was run full out cw fairly regulary the car s electrical system had been modified including a rather seriously heavy duty alternator but such an installation has been done and so is possible this installation was the source of the legendary story of w am sitting in the car and paging his wife over the department store pa systems bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh i hope david isn t going to be too upset with me for sticking my nose in here again but here goes it isn t the average temperature that is the key factor here but rather which is better at transferring the heat out of the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery call it a question of thermal conductivity or of insulating ability or thermal mass whatever you like question why does a concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand on it bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re switching ps questions anyways i ve built the basic up down converters with pretty good results efficiency but i m running into problems when i try to design build anything that puts out serious amps i know it can be done i have some v a guts on my bench but something puzzles me i m using a simple choke as the storage element basicly a toroid with a single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error feedback but some of the others seem to loose me what are they for better than that anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of i d love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume most commercial switchers do not use magnetics for their energy storage that s handled by the big caps on the primary side those which in a linearly regulated power supply would be considered the filter caps coming right after the bridge the transformer is just that a transformer it s there primarily to step the voltage up or down although the inductance seen by the switch transistor on the primary side is not negligible as anyone who s zapped said transistor from either failing to get one with a high enough breakdown voltage or neglecting to include a snubber diode across it would tell you actually many transistors intended for switcher use today have the diode built in the basic switched mode power supply operates something like this in a somewhat simplified manner the ac line is rectified to produce a high voltage more or less unregulated dc rail the energy storage or filter caps appear across this rail as does the switching transistor the transistor chops the current into the primary side of the transformer resulting in stepped up or stepped down pulses out the secondary which are then rectified and filtered at least one of the transformer s outputs is sampled and fed back to the control circuit for the switching transistor which acts in a pulse width modulation pwm fashion to control by varying the pulse width the amount of energy being dumped into the primary and therefore the voltage coming out at the secondary the remaining outputs may be allowed to simply run at whatever value they will more or less tracking the regulated output or they may have some additional linear regulation added you may also note that the feedback between the regulated output and the pwm control which is most typically an ic is not done via a direct electrical connection this is due to various safety standards which require primary and secondary circuits to be electrically isolated often the feedback path involves an optoisolator to meet this requirement while the transformer isn t the primary energy storage device in these designs this does not mean that the energy stored in the transformer can be ignored besides the inductive kick giving the switch transistor a bad time as noted above you also need to worry about getting all the energy that went in to the transformer back out again one way or another in some designs this happens more or less automatically but in others you need to take special care to ensure that the transformer core doesn t saturate which again would have disastrous results best left to the imagination i m not by any stretch of the imagination a power supply designer hopefully a real one will come along soon and clean up any gross errors in the above bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	does any one know what is biggest rom for present please replay yxy usl edu thanks a lot
sci.electronics	help need thermal specs for mc fe i m doing some work on the mac iisi and need some information on the cpu i have the motorola mc um ad rev but i fear it is out of date as it does not have the characteristics for the cpu package type used in the iisi what i need is the theta jc thermal characteristic the junction to case thermal resistance for the plastic fe style package if you have this info i would appreciate your sending it by email as postings suffer a few days delay here if you are keen on this stuff i am also interested in a more accurate value for the typical power dissipation i m assuming watts using the w maximum at c decreased the way the pd drops in the x as ta increases if your manual has a chart of power dissipation i d like to know what it reads at c and c thanks for reading james macphail jmacphai cue bc ca on bounce try james mirg phy queensu ca
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why it s not the concrete floor that does it the problem is that lead acid cells self discharge over time even high quality cells gates for instance will discharge over a month period of time non sealed cells self discharge even faster if the battery was not completly charged when left sitting it probably discharged past the the point where cell sulfiding occurs which in many cases means a ruined battery datalog consulting tucson az ejm datalog com noao datalog com ejm
sci.electronics	voice synth chips does anyone know where i can get some voice synthesis chips i am looking for something like the ones that do the time and date stamp on answering machines
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor when will people learn the trouble is the ballast in the concrete and as every fool knows ballast resistors are used to discharge batteries furthermore it is very silly to store the battery with the terminals downwards as you must have done to contact the ballast seriously self discharge the actual problem as stated by others does vary greatly with certain types and freaks show low self discharge i have in fact seen ordinary automotive batteries which have effectively held full charge for years so it must be possible if your garage is heated store the batteries somewhere cooler but above freezing flat batteries freeze more easily occasionally charge it once a month or even leave it on float charge permanently special charger don t do this unless you know what you are doing seriously dangerous anouther point is the unsuitability of automotive batteries for things like electric mowers they are not generally designed to be repeatedly deep discharged and their life may be greatly shorted some early zero maintenance automotive batteries in fact responded to a full discharge with total failure shortly afterwards but modern ones are superb yrs miles and counting tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk
sci.electronics	re uart needed really break detect in article tau ceti isc br com jimc tau ceti isc br com jim cathey wrote in article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting a break is done by watching for a character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates a break there is no special way to detect break that i have found other than this there s no magic signal generated by uarts etc zilog scc rr break detect this is a very popular part but it has a number of quirks especially in hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two of the bits in the receiver status register you can enable an interrupt on either of these bits going high too also only one null will be put in the fifo per break detected this is simply the best serial chip i ve ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which is imho second best death to devices and i thought i knew a lot about serial devices perhaps i should just keep my big mouth shut sorry alan mimms alan apple com apple alan my opinions are generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless but apple computer they are my own art without engineering is dreaming engineering without art is calculating steven k roberts in computing across america
sci.electronics	re analog switches balanced demodulators msf skaro as arizona edu michael fulbright writes i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i ve hit a snag in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an op amp amplifier from to controlable via a digital input the most obvious way i ve come up with is to use analog switches to adjust the gain of the op amp the only analog switch i have experience with it the unfortunately i want to switch an ac signal which goes from about v to v and the is only for positive signals i have recently used the to switch a bipolar signal i simply ran the off a bipolar supply v in this case as long as your analog input signal stays between the supply rails the will work fine of course your control logic input must use v as the logic low and v as the logic high reference so that either all your driving logic must be cmos with the same bipolar supply or you must provide some kind of voltage level shifting circuit between the and the control logic in my case i was able to use the bipolar supply all the way carlos puig kj st cpuig infoserv com san jose ca
sci.electronics	flash leds with sound i m looking for a circuit that will flash an led on in response to the output from a walkman cassette player how could i do this i don t want it just to turn on i want it to strobe once so to speak per every beep i put on a cassette tape would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again i m going to have a pattern of beats or beeps on a cassette tape so on the tape you d hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing as time goes on i want to synchronize an led probably two of them with the beeps on the cassette tape so the led with each beep would go on and off real quick generating a strobe light sort of effect the rapidity of the beeps on the tape would in turn effect the rapidity of the blinking of the leds and if there was no sound on the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari baden inqmind bison mb ca writes anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s hosfelt t stock t both vf nm mcd ma mfg liton call disclaimer dont know these guys from a bar of soap but the price looks reasonable
sci.electronics	re luser in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes hi i am looking for a very high speed d a converter at least bits and mhz for a research application a paper in the january issue of ieee solid state circuits mentions a gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where i can find such a thing even a somewhat slower si dac would do needless to say i have looked in all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would be appreciated think video brooktree sells a whole line of dacs that can be used normally for graphics applications in either or ohm systems for example the bt can be had in speeds up to about mhz bt to mhz and mhz with the bt seema varma rick spanbauer suny stony brook
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article snx black demon co uk tchannon black demon co uk writes there is one wild difference between the two printers a laserprinter is a page printer whilst an inkjet is a line printer this means that a laserprinter can rotate graphic images whilst an inkjet cannot few drivers actually use this facility there is also the matter of downloadable fonts and so on tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk i have a deskjet and i thought i d give a little info the deskjet will do landscape mode like the hp laserjets i can t say if other inkjets do though also the deskjet can do downloadable fonts only if you buy a softfont memory cart for it oh you said the laserjet can rotate a graphic image hmmmmm the deskjet can only rotate text nevermind
sci.electronics	blinking leds where can i buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate by voltage i guess if so what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable or set to i d like blinking leds that can be set for approx hz hz hz or hz something like that i m interested in what s out there for flash rates i like the idea of leds with flasher circuits already in them i hate soldering ics in general guess i don t have a hell of a lot of patience thanks dana
sci.electronics	how do you build neural networks subject says it all though i should specify that i m looking for solutions that don t require me purchasing specific chips etc in other words is there some sort of neural network circuit i could build after a visit to a local r shack matthew david moss blessed are the pure in heart for they internet mmoss ic sunysb edu will see god bitnet mmoss sbccmail matthew
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i think a few things are being missed overall here first of all anyone with a dos manual can copy a disk or copy anything hidden files dont go far if you are dealing with anyone who is not comletely dos ignorant off of a hard disk professional crackers aren t interested in copying disks they are programmers who get some thrill out of going through unassembly listings of programs to disable copy protection such as serial number dialog boxes volume label checks and who knows what when it comes to computer games those people are in the minority however in my experience with the world of people and software it seems that a good majority of people say will at some point copy a friend s program gee you really oughta try this or accept a copy these are people who normally would buy a software package or do without but decided that just once it wouldn t matter the last thing is people who own or are responsible for more than one computer most people aren t going to spend x of computers for the same software package they will just install it x of times especially things like dos upgrades are we having fun yet
sci.electronics	multiple inputs for pc can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated abhin singla
sci.electronics	re multiple inputs for pc in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated are the boards at all intelligent i e run by microcontrollers the easiest thing would be to have another line that says that one of the boards is talking to the pc when this line was true the other boards could all hold off and not send their data this isn t a perfect solution though since you have to worry a little about making sure two boards don t decide to talk at the exact same time other than that i think you will need to hook up each board to something that speaks rs this actually isn t as hard or as expensive as it used to be though assuming the boards talk relatively slowly bps or slower the pics can coordinate things between themselves to multiplex the data this is really just forbicly adding the suggestion in the first paragraph to your system and it assumes that each board doesn t talk more than th of the time of for very long since a pic isn t going to be able to buffer more than maybe some bytes you might want to check into the prices of multi serial card for your pc though i recently bought a boca research x card parallel ports rs ports for a very reasonable joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape in article klp quark klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it i would place a small magnet near the take up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played who would think to check john
sci.electronics	bit a d converter once upon a time long long ago in this news group someone posted a schematic for a bit a d converter well i just found a use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file it had a flip flop a resistor and a cap and a comparator op amp i think i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news group o o beware the light at the end of the tunnel it may be an oncoming dragon m d c u mcorbin oucsace cs ohiou edu
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light sorry charlie i have a dozen very blue led s on my bench right now they have a clear plastic case and when lit are absolutely blue the hue is sort of a summer day cloudless sky blue but make no mistake they are blue you can buy them from digikey circuit specialist jameco i think led tronics stanley optoelectronics and others the current price is around each for small quantities i will also be selling them through my mail order company in the near future weeks write for details if interested john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected hmmm a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks it in the store pc and asks for the buyers id later if pirated versions showed up they could be tracked to the original purchaser in addition copies which were sent to distributors stores would have a vendor reg or serial in order to track in store piracy possible additional program security schemes would be having monthly password changes which necessitate user call in and registration inconvenient taking dire legal action on anyone caught expensive encryption crc check self modifying code limited effectiveness have an independent watchdog program in the installation setup config or memory manager etc which would check the main program s crc only as effective as above methods at best have the above watchdog circulating as a virus which would trash cracked copies of the program and or the offenders hard drive risky and probably illegal certainly immoral my new ideas aren t terribly feasible to implement as presented but i thought if i threw them out people could think of variations that might be effective what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet inkjet and bubblejet printers are the same tech bubblejet was trademarked by cannon and inkjet was by hp i belive i have seen both and own a bubblejet a apple stylewriter which has a cannon engine with a dpi rated output the output is very good with quality paper which is very importaint cheap paper gives bad results i use sealed paper and the only differenc is that the ink is less dark than toner i compaire to the apple personal laserwriter ntx but then again the difference is to so david a smith i like to skate on the other side of the ice dasmith suntan ec usf edu i didn t do it and i don t know anything smithd eggo csee usf edu either usf better not know i m here
sci.electronics	re flash leds with sound in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes i m looking for a circuit that will flash an led on in response to the output from a walkman cassette player how could i do this i don t want it just to turn on i want it to strobe once so to speak per every beep i put on a cassette tape would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again i m going to have a pattern of beats or beeps on a cassette tape so on the tape you d hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing as time goes on i want to synchronize an led probably two of them with the beeps on the cassette tape so the led with each beep would go on and off real quick generating a strobe light sort of effect the rapidity of the beeps on the tape would in turn effect the rapidity of the blinking of the leds and if there was no sound on the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana try looking in a magizine called radio electronics may issue page there is a circuit for a midi light controller there andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au j pethybridge writes hello again i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc i didn t catch your posting one year ago but i presume you like to leave out an extra a latch i presume you allready know there is a but that couldnt be the question could it during my student trainee project i discouvered a nice device it s a psd from waferscale integration in one single plcc i think it was package it contained rom ram i o lines and a programmable addressdecoder as far as i can recall it can be hooked directly with a mcs series up neat huh but it needs programming before assembly so it wasn t suitable for my project perhaps usefull for you future plans greetings
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining sayi that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two differen processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes thanks in advance ka lun pang a k a andy lost between frequency and time on the unit circ email klp doe carleton ca dod to put it bluntly they are full of it paying a tape is playing a tape there is no difference whether the output goes to a second vcr or to a tv how the vcr or tv reacts to this signal is a different story see messages pertaining to macrovision copy protection in order for the tape to self destruct it would have to have circuitry of its own within the tape case the circuit would have to somehow magically determine what the output of the vcr is connected to the circuit would then have to have an erasing head to actually do anything it is a pretty lame scare tactic i ve seen something similar on a bbs when the sysop wanted to he could have a message sent to the user s end saying that it is sending the code to format your hd victor inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c dvh fan ucdavis edu ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron says a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks it that s kind of extra work that one cannot expect the store people to do imho it would be easier if companies sell their software as cheaply as possible and to sell the customers detail manuals for the brain deads quick reference books how to do books and videos paid support hot line for the registered purchasers these can be part of their package i have seen many books to teach people how to use dos wp and other software i i suspect either users can t read the manuals or they don t have manuals either way there is to be made btw books are quite a bit more expensive to reproduce than a disk what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable with the popularity of multitasking and pseudo multitasking systems eg os windoze mack system it is pretty easy to run a debugger and figure out the protection schemes by disassembling tracing trapping the application during run time schemes like compressed software special loaders would be easy pray even to beginner hackers hardware keys unless well designed and totally transparent is a pain in the b t we having using a piece of software under windoze that uses a hardware key the key interfers with the printer stuff with other programs and often has to be unplugged for those software to work properly but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys all the hacker has to do is to remove modify code that communicate with the port vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly k c lee elec eng grad student os windoze mack are not trademarked
sci.electronics	needed v watt fan can someone tell me where to find volt watt ma fans that fit the standard computer mounting size ie and inch wide and inches diagonal from hole to hole hole where bolt or screw goes through i have found higher noisy fans that are v watt but i need a quite fan i can use volt as well but found just about all volt fans to be noisy i also find that the v fans are not only quieter but the blade shape has a lot to do with it i have a dead fan that was quiet in it s day it has long blades like fan blades in a tturbo engine on a jet is the only way i can describe it the dead fan is etri model lh actually it s not dead it just makes a hideous rattle noise so it s stealthy qualities are void thanks
sci.electronics	proposal alt fan tesla for discussion of nikolai tesla who else russ nelson sun soe clarkson edu businesses persuade governments force
sci.electronics	pc board layout help hi i have a few questions about laying out a pcb i am using easytrax for dos which is a great program but what my question is when laying out traces what thickness should they be i am mainly designing low voltage low current boards for micro controller apps what should pad sizes be for resistors i will be turning to a commercial pcb maker to produce s of these boards and i was wondering what is the minimum distance traces should be from each other well any info would be great thanks anton
sci.electronics	re pink noise pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does
sci.electronics	re hi volt from battery in article c ufig dv news cso uiuc edu martyj mrcnext cso uiuc edu martin johnson writes i need a small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply to deliver joules at volts the ubiquitous camera flash circuit is what i want but i cant get mine apart without breaking it charlie brett s suggestion buy one of the disposable flash cameras use the film then take the thing apart is a good one note though that you won t get a particularly precise voltage out of such a thing and it may be a single point design that won t adapt well to off nominal operation the things are easy to dismantle the key piece of information is that when you advance the film on one of them you are winding it into the film cassette it is unwound from the cassette in the factory when the camera is made so no darkroom is needed for dismantling it s standard film so just take the cassette in for processing all the camera store people do when you bring in one of the disposables is rip it apart toss the film cassette into the to be processed bin and throw the battery in one trashcan and the rest of the camera in another if you take it apart yourself you get an aa alkaline battery still with a fair bit of life in it and all kinds of little bits and pieces from the camera i expect you could even re load and re use the camera if you were really determined svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part i thought the first thread was hilarious so here goes another post some more background information on what has happened to my poor batteries one year i left the batteries in the garage the garage is unheated they were left in their places that they needed to be one in the riding lawnmower what a lux and one in each motorcycle the battery in the riding lawnmower was about years old and one of the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time i discovered that all of the batteries were dead and needed to be recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had to be replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored in the garage and i think i remember my dad charging them in spring last year i decided to bring them in to the basement which has two parts one is dirt and brick and the other is concrete i brought in all three and discovered in the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when i put the charger on them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around in other words it was pinned the internal circut tripped and i went on to the other batteries they were the same realizing that we still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid i decided to put the charger on them these had been sitting for around and a half years on the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed a small charge around hours or so on trickle i tested them by using them at the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around of em this leads me to believe one of several things i bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something to do with the discharge of the batteries there was enough moisture to short out the terminals in the room where the concrete is the dirt room was able to absorb the moisture in the air better than concrete btw i can almost waterski in the dirt room any other ideas could be the aliens anything is possible
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes it isn t the average temperature that is the key factor here but rather which is better at transferring the heat out of the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery uh bob why is the battery warmer than ground temperature on the time scales in question and with the considerably reduced temperature swings several feet underground there isn t going to be any major temperature difference between the battery and what it s sitting on question why does a concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand on it because the temperature of your hand unlike that of the battery is determined by the balance between internal heat production and external heat loss you re feeling the greater rate of heat loss from an object your hand which is kept much warmer than its surroundings in the case of an object with no significant internal heat production this will affect how quickly it comes into equilibrium with its surroundings if it started out not in equilibrium with them but won t affect the final temperature for the same reason windchill affects whether you will freeze but not whether water will freeze svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c x a h ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu mark underwood writes in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own it is also much easier to scribble corrections on a hard copy manual jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	circuit list locations here is a list i get when i was combing through some microfilm one day here at drexel while completely board most of these circuits are pretty easy to constuct and can be done by a novice this is basically some stuff that could prove useful to you without having to sit down and either design or buy the stuff not a good word but i m tired right now hope you enjoy if you have any additions send them to me and i ll add them to the list they don t have to be from this particular magazine they just have to be interesting radio electronics year month page article name and or discription april car audio amplifier watts may midi light controller light control from music input solid state relay digital altimeter june electronic thermostat february audio sweep marker generator frequency response april line power from volts vdc vac watts june electronic compass august speaker protector sept solid state tesla coil oct vocal effects mixer nov music on hold play music for someone who is on hold on the phone dec thd analizer battery tool electronic fuse jan acoustic field generator phone activated audio muting circuit feb frequency probe radar detector tester march universal laboratory power supply april morse rtty detector capacitance adaptor capacitance add on for a dmm solid state wiper control may universal descrambler for a tv july digital dashboard for a car august digital pressure gauge sept vocal stripper take the vocals away from music oct rocket altimeter model rockets dec benchtop frequency counter jan carrier current audio transmitter audio through your house s wiring plasma display globe advanced control system feb carrier current receiver march hi fi audio amp for house or car high power may i r extender extender for infra red remotes july light beam communication digital capacitance meter nov r c decade box digital compass dec programmable phasor property guard july l c meter part august l c meter part nov electronic combonation lock sept stun gun june click and pop filter for your stereo removes clicks and pops when you play old lps from what i could see you can order the circuit kits finished or unfinished or you can order the parts that you can t get through a normal store andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
sci.electronics	re how do you build neural networks mmoss ic sunysb edu matthew d moss writes in other words is there some sort of neural network circuit i could build after a visit to a local r shack marvin minsky hi there writes of building perceptrons in the s using motor driven potentiometers to vary the weights he reported that the circuits worked even tho there were wiring errors can you say robust cadium sulfide cells vary with light cmos or ttl gates provide the sigmoid somewhat linear yet somewhat limiter transfer function often used low power schottky gates and earlier gates has about a gain of x leds probably output enough light to easily control cds cells even at a few ma and paper with dark and light regions controlled by pencil and eraser could also control cds resistance the very high input resistance of cmos gates may let you charge up uf paper mylar caps to serve as memory allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re flash leds with sound in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again look for information about tone decoder chip it is an easy to use chip for detecting sound of certain frequency you need only one and some other componets for each led you want to control the chip can take the voltage levels which the casette gives radio shack archer semiconductor reference guide gives good information how to use that chip it should be simplest way to go the chip costs something like tomi engdahl hut fi lowery s law then niksula hut fi if it jams force it if it breaks it needed replacing anyway this text is provided as is without any express or implied warranty
sci.electronics	silver solder i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal andy anwar y shiekh i do not feel obliged to believe that the international centre for same god who has endowed us with sense theoretical physics reason and intellect has intended us to trieste italy forgo their use shiekh itsictp bitnet galileo galilei
sci.electronics	study as audio control engineer in the u s a hi folks out there i don t know whether i am in the right newsgroup but i have a question if i am completely wrong here in this group could you mail me the right name of the correct newsgroup a friend of mine is studying electronics at the technical university in karlsruhe germany since one year he wants to know whether there are possibilities to study audio control engineering in the u s a does anybody know how to get information about these studies in the u s a could you send me information like e mail adresses of the universities quality of these studies and so on is it possible to e mail the universities directly to get information do the universities send information via e mail please could you answer via e mail because i don t read this newsgroup regularly thanks in advance stephan jaeger this space for rent contact stephan jaeger rheinstr d karlsruhe stephan jaeger ka sub org
sci.electronics	re microstepping you can try sgs l a it can achieve current level microstep teere is a circuit in the sgs thomson smart power applicatio manual order code for the manual is amsmartpowerst best regards moi siew hong email shmoi hpmalr mal hp com hewlett packard malaysia bayan lepas free trade zone tel fax penang malaysia
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure washer so we would use one several miles from the shop on more than one occasion after washing the engine it would not start as water would have gotten under the distributor i would put a plastic bag around it to try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and it would be nearly impossible to try and wipe all these areas down with a dry rag the usual solution was to carry a can of wd and when the car wouldn t start to spray all the likely areas and it would then start on the very first time this definately gets the car going but wd is highly flammable explosive even in the right conditions like a vapour sealed inside a distributor for eg and contact points tend to arc a tiny bit i once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off a motorcycle after it had been restored to life with wd fun to watch it was a honda mr minibike and the cover is only held on by large rubber grommet so it wasn t really a big blast graham b ps as a more serious aside it is apparently also conductive so it is best to exercise caution with it around mains wiring
sci.electronics	development tools for could someone point me toward a source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor i specifically am looking for a macintosh cross assembler disassembler also is there a mailing list dedicated to discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv lihan ccwf cc utexas edu bruce g bostwick writes well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second this is a s idea supposedly splicing in a frame of buy popcorn upped popcorn sales in a movie theatre big flap at the time congress involved talk of making it illegal general agreement by networks not to do it a few years ago some junior person at an advertising agency re invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out on tape with single frame messages it aired on a few stations but a tech at one station previewing the tape noticed a flicker and looked at the tape frame by frame to find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog or nexis if you wanted now that everybody has vcrs it s not likely that anybody could get away with this on tv john nagle
sci.electronics	development tools for c in article ree inndmp darkstar ucsc edu speth cats ucsc edu james gustave writes could someone point me toward a source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor i specifically am looking for a macintosh cross assembler disassembler also is there a mailing list dedicated to discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu i have the same question for any tools for the derivative processor the c processor designed by western design center thanks oscar oscar r mitchell ibm advanced workstations and systems division risc system tm future systems hardware architecture and design group mail stop zip burnet road austin texas usa phone ibm tieline usa fax ibm vnet oscar at ausvm ibm internet oscar oscar austin ibm com usa internet oscar austin ibm com include standard disclaimer i do not speak for ibm only for myself ibm corporation advanced workstations and systems division risc system tm future systems hardware architecture and design group usa internet oscar austin ibm com
sci.electronics	re pink noise in article t tw n juts ccc amdahl com dws p hdb cd amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does wrong wrong completely wrong and a little misleading too white noise is random noise whose energy density is constant for a constant bandwidth that is a hz wide band at hz will have precisely the same amount of energy as a hz band at khz pink noise is random noise whose energy density is constant for a constant precentage bandwidth thus a wide band of noise at hz whose bandwidth is hz will contain the same energy as a wide band at khz whose bandwidth is hz wide white noise is often used with spectrum analyzers that have constant bandwidths pink noise is used with audio type real time analyzers whose bandwidths are centert frequency dependent often described as octave or octave or some such terminology white noise relative to pink noise has more energy at high frequencies at a rate equal to db per octave pink noise relative to white noise has more energy at low frequencies at a rate equl to again db octave dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell ma voice and fax
sci.electronics	asynchronous receiver recommendations i am looking for a suitable uart for a project what i require is a stand alone device i e not cpu controlled which will receive baud rs also a nice extra would be a received data buffer please reply with any info you have thanks chad d hubich university of regina dept of computer science
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining sayi that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two differen processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small greetings there are types of warnings on us tapes a hologram is glued across the seam of the halves of the tape the message usually reads if seal is broken you must buy this tape the standard macrovision warning copies of this tape will be unviewable your case extended message for the average consumer tm which states that even attempting to copy the tape will destroy the original i don t believe you can sue them for misinformation in cases like this take care p s of course is utter bs but the average consumer tm believes it heck my mom once returned such a tape without watching it she was afraid that something might just happen filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article apr rwwa com witr rwwa com robert withrow writes in article qf ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes i gave up after a year of letters and phone calls i got the impression the fcc was powerless and it was up to the cable company to correct the situation isn t there some formal action a citizen can take that requires the fcc to at least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates railroad ave swampscott ma usa for those who are interested the fcc does indeed care about cable leakage particularly into the aviation nav band or leakage that is causing interference to other services part details specific limits to acceptable leakage and measurement technique if you will clearly document your problem and measurement technique a signal level meter with dipole is the normal approach remember to correct between measurement data and microvolts per meter and fax or mail the details to mr john wong cable branch fcc m st nw wash dc and a copy of your letter to the local cable company you will get results in fact the cable company will probably start treating you much better when they realize you have figured out how to get the fccs attention what is important is to document your case as it relates to the applicable rules however the cable company is required to at least check out every complaint of leakage they must file with the commission and maintain on premises a yearly measurement report that details the results of leakage testing but remember call the cable company first and give them a chance to work to correct the problem before contacting the commission i am in the business of measuring cable system leakage via the airborne method scottcr wkuvx bitnet aka chris scott telco
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible might even be a vector strokewriter display in which case the lower limit on image time is anyone s guess and is probably phosphor persistence limited back in high school i worked as a lab assistant for a bunch of experimental psychologists at bell labs when they were doing visual perception and memory experiments they used vector type displays with millisecond refresh rates common so your case of th sec is quite practical and the experimenters were probably sure that it was milliseconds not or either bob myers kc ew myers fc hp com steve steve tell tell cs unc edu h l estes park apts unc chapel hill computer science w carrboro nc engineering is a lot like art some circuits are like lyric poems some are like army manuals and some are like the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected this has been an interesting thread to follow and obviously this group wasn t intended as a forum for the discussion of piracy has anyone seen any estimates of the lost revenue due to pirates i was wondering if piracy is more rampant in home or corporate computing environments i would tend to think that business environment piracy is the major contributor to this form of lost revenue so many companies will purchase a few copies of a software package and then employees will internally distribute them as if they owned a site license what do you guys think
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering no the blue leds sold down the street are in milky white plastic and fyi putting a filter on a typical visible light led presumably meaning a non blue one won t produce blue light a filter can only block light it can t generate wavelengths that aren t there to start with jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch writes i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it i would place a small magnet near the take up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played who would think to check that is an exceptionally cool idea would it work how strong a field is needed anyone pat fegmania wustl edu c c revely nancy sinatra christmas carols a kind of stereo hell chris buery abc news
sci.electronics	re bit a d converter in article apr oucsace cs ohiou edu mcorbin oucsace cs ohiou edu max corbin writes once upon a time long long ago in this news group someone posted a schematic for a bit a d converter well i just found a use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file it had a flip flop a resistor and a cap and a comparator op amp i think i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news group hmmm how about a piece of copper wire to v input range standard ttl output instantaneous conversion time for the humor impaired mark a haun internet haunma wwc edu sittner hall amateur radio kj pc college place wa
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in article apr lugb latrobe edu au matgbb lure latrobe edu au byrnes graham writes in sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure this definately gets the car going but wd is highly flammable explosive even in the right conditions like a vapour sealed inside a distributor for eg and contact points tend to arc a tiny bit i once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off a motorcycle after it had been restored to life with wd fun to watch it was a honda mr minibike and the cover is only held on by large rubber grommet so it wasn t really a big blast graham b ps as a more serious aside it is apparently also conductive so it is best to exercise caution with it around mains wiring i some years ago almost became a victim of this squirted a fair amount in an old model teletype which was acting up then turned it on the eruption when the motor starting contacts broke was mighty spectacular i almost got my eyebrows singed the plastic old ones had safety glass cover over the platen etc flew across the room and several people in the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties of wd vapor john h schmidt p e internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article naglec e dse netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes lihan ccwf cc utexas edu bruce g bostwick writes well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second this is a s idea supposedly splicing in a frame of buy popcorn upped popcorn sales in a movie theatre big flap at the time congress involved talk of making it illegal general agreement by networks not to do it more than talk from the fcc rules subliminal perception a see public notice fcc dated january fcc d fr january b see fcc information bulletin subliminal projection sic at least in my rules service copy of the rules dated november since i don t have either old copies of the federal register or the information bulletin around i can t tell you what you can t do on tv or radio but i seem to remember this being an unnecisarily hot subject in the late s practically speaking i dont have too much trouble seeing the one frame edits in mtv promos badly scratched or torn single frames in films and such but maby that s just because the contrast between the single frame and the surrounding material was significant i never believed in the one frame type of sp being real on the other hand the coca cola or brand insert desired name here beer cans conveniently placed so the brand name is visible in the movie you just watched that s another story and if your tv station or network was paid by the beer company for the privilege of doing that there has to be a promotional consideration paid by or similar message included with the program but if the tv station bought the movie already edited that way from the film company and didn t get any of the payment for brand visibility that the film company got then they don t have to run the message a few years ago some junior person at an advertising agency re invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out on tape with single frame messages it aired on a few stations but a tech at one station previewing the tape noticed a flicker and looked at the tape frame by frame to find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog or nexis if you wanted now that everybody has vcrs it s not likely that anybody could get away with this on tv john nagle john h schmidt p e internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	p programmer having vainly looked for devices capable of dealing to the nec p dsp chip which dont require taking out a mortgage i decided to roll my own not a difficult task for an given that all the timing relationships are set out in the databook one thing bothers me that is the accursed ms volt vpp pulse sure a little buck step up converter can achieve this in what is otherwise an all volt widget but i know latterday eproms dont need nearly this pulse length q has anyone come up with a more efficient programming algorithm which is failsafe cheers mike
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu david lesher writes why do all postings from bnr seem to have bogus addresses both gstovall crchh nosubdomain nodomain and gstovall bnr com bounce this makes it rather difficult to reply they go through uunet this is often the problem as uunet often has problems with return paths deleted oh and most importantly no amount of transmitted rf short of a transmitter the size of small house is likely to cause the equipment failures you describe so you are looking at two different problems yep bill
sci.electronics	descrambling channels i live up in british columbia canada the cable company i use is called rogers cable does anyone know of their scrambling techniques and ways of getting around them any suggestions of what they might use sean oliver internet address a mindlink bc ca mindlink bbs
sci.electronics	re pink noise in article t tw n juts ccc amdahl com dws p hdb cd amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does with regards to what you wrote how does one adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that i asked a professor that question just last week and he didn t really know himself since pink noise is believed to be due to surface states say the surface of the silicon where there s a lack of a covalent bond that act as traps to nearby elecrons and since this happens at low frequencies because at high frequencies they aren t able to trap electrons how do you compensate for that it seems to me that you wouldn t be able to compensate for pink noise i have seen the pink noise feature however on many eqs and i was wondering how they are suppose to compensate for noise when pink noise is not due to man made noise like power lines crosstalks coupling etc if you have any information about this it would be appreciated hope this didn t sound too drawn out thanx david shorty helios nevada edu
sci.electronics	re development tools for c in article c x xol austin ibm com oscar oscar austin ibm com oscar r mitchell writes request for wdc c mac cross development stuff apple themselves sells a cross developer for the macintosh called mpw iigs it s intended for use with the apple iigs computer which uses the oscar r mitchell ian schmidt two meg software irsman iastate edu aol com i will choose a path that s author of audiozap modzap and more clear i will choose free will co author of soundconvert and desktracker n peart coder and musician for the gs irc
sci.electronics	removing battery corrosion is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time
sci.electronics	how to get rid of flyback whine i recently took apart my color sony tv to clean the volume pushbuttons and when i put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder is this easy to fix which part is resonating i have heard rumors of a spray that will fix the noise is this a simple thing for a tv repairman to fix thanks scott
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article r e l c sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a sorry ian i haven t toyed with it in several years i haven t seen the insides in quite a few years i just saw the post lagging for quite a few days and thought i d toss in my i assume the was functionally similar to the was it also made by mos technologies i really am more versed in the based atari computers the came later on the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia s for the joysticks it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed in the atari computers the cia chip you refer to sounds an awful lot like the ctia color television interface adapter chip used in the early models later atari upgraded this to the gtia graphics other colorful literature stated that the gtia might have stood for george the developer of the chip there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all later model might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years not according to the servicing documentation i have here the did not change intenally very much at all funny i had an old and new model the old one was significantly heavier additionally i think the used k k and up to k of rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper k of the s address space k and k games were fine but later k and k games needed bank switching atari and others made much of these huge cartridges i have no idea how much ram it had to work with but i would hazard a guess of or k ram sorry i am way out of line here my first microcontroller i built was a mc based chipset with bytes onboard that was not easy to work with in addtion to a small k on board eprom wrong it had bytes of ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom k of memory tia registers also sat in this address space as bytes of ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting as atari had provided no write line to the cart this was managed by mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c dvh fan ucdavis edu ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron writes from ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron subject re how to the disks copy protected date sat apr gmt hmmm what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys if you put another computer on the port instead of the key you can hack them by reading what happens so i ve been told i ve never seen this done but i think it s possible you d need some hardware knowledge and some software to read the port vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only once michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home dplatt ntg com dave platt writes what kind of power must he be putting out to cause the effects the affected equipment is about feet from the road might be a couple of hundred watts from the sound of it kicking sound out of the tv and stereo speakers by direct rf rectification requires a mighty strong carrier i ve heard of linears so powerful that triggering them while the car was idling would stall the engine by pulling down the battery voltage it would take a lot more than that it sounds like the radio equipment is actually not shut completely off but just goes to a standby situation i suspect that the stories are just that stories the voltage can only be sucked down so far instantaneously when you try to jumpstart someones car when your vehicle is at idle does your car stall no the other car just does not crank well now the engine might stall because the idle was too low to start with when the extra current is drawn the idle speed will drop as the alternator loads down the engine to compensate for the increased amperage requirement is resolution of this problem a matter for the power company the fcc or both ultimately it s likely to be your problem to resolve i m afraid the fcc is so understaffed that they don t pay much attention to citizen complains about rfi or so i ve heard they ll just send you a pamphlet describing how you can apply corrective measures talking to the power company might help they might be able to install filtering devices at your service panel or recommend a type which you could have installed by a licensed electrician a transmitter is not going to be affecting house power if surges are occurring there it is due to another cause not a transmitter unfortunately there s a fair chance that enough signal is being picked up by your house wiring that a simple service panel filter won t suffice you may need to install heavy duty rfi filters at the power connections of your affected equipment it is probably not that much of a problem often toroid coils on the power leads will solve that part of the interference problem it will not solve internal equipment deficiencies if the problem occurs regularly you may need to stake out the street in question and watch for trucks or cars with big antennae driving by at the time interference occurs if you can identify the vehicle which is transmitting you may be able to contact its owner and complain it is probably not the transmitter that is at fault if the person is an amateur then he she will probably be willing to help if you explain that the person is causing interference bill
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button well amps anyway transmissions are generally for a short interval the battery would supply the rest of course if you transmitted too much you would run the battery down it really would not be that much of a brake even at efficiency watts would only consume horsepower bill
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick thanks hugo
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes while it s possible that it s a ham radio transmitter that you re hearing it isn t likely every bit of signal that doesn t go out the antenna is wasted as far as a ham is concerned and most hams are it is the radiated signal that would cause the problem technically competent to ensure that they don t waste any signal if they can possibly avoid it to get their ham license they had to pass a government exam that tests them on that point among others however you could be hearing a radio transmitter for sure there are lots of other services where the operators aren t required to be technically competent citizens band cb for example there is nothing in the amateur radio tests that requires an technical competence at all it is a simple matter to memorize all the questions and answers however that said most hams that i know do spend quite a bit of time gaining some technical skill listen to the interference if you hear voices clearly it almost certainly isn t ham radio and might well be cb if you can record a don t count on that bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally however you can ask a ham over to listen if the interference occurs at a specific time each day then it would be possible to do such scheduling if nothing else you could invite the ham over to transmit from your driveway to see if he interferes if he does then you probably need to have your equipment worked on to make it immune to rf interference have a ham radio interference committee whose members are most willing to help you resolve interference complaints look in the phone book or ask at the local ham radio store or call the fcc for contact info the fcc may or may not have such information they have enough to do without getting calls for such information if nothing else call your city offices or police department general business number they should have the name of a local ham contact if it s a ham he s more than likely willing to help get rid of the problem after all it would be his signal he s wasting if it isn t the interference committee or the fcc may be able to suggest solutions see above your concept of wasted signal is erroneous if his rig is transmitting properly then the chance of interference with the exception of harmonic television interference is the greatest since he is putting out the strongest signal it is unfortunately the case that a transmitting station that is operating perfectly legally could possibly cause intereference to a piece of consumer audio or tv equipment just because the manufacturer of the consumer equipment cut corners on one little section of the device that wouldn t affect one person in a thousand but which bites you often that can be remedied for just a few pennies by a knowledgeable person perhaps even the person operating the transmitter you re hearing unfortunately most consumer equipment is succeptable it is all poorly designed btw hams are allowed amplifiers cb isn t illegal ham amplifier doesn t compute it does but not for a mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power a watt amplifier bill
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet just thought i would add to deskjet thread i got my first one in college about or so years ago i ve been a happy hp user of the deskwriter for macintosh for past years i got one just a few months after their release and i got software revision a now i m up to rev our family sister and father have each purchased their own dw s after seeing mine go for one year unscathed their stuck to their trusty imagewriter ii s the original dw has gone for years at moderate personal use i would say that it has gone through at least sheets and around one small ink cartridge every months or so my brother might take this dw now i m probably gonna give it to him and i am looking to upgrade to a color dw the chief advantages disadvantages i ve found over the years are advantages quick ppm quiet roomate can sleep while it s printing appletalk networkable unfortunately the original wasn t so look out if you buy used i rewired our home with phonenet appletalk connectors and while home we can all use my dad s one dw and cheap now run btw you can upgrade older dw s to color or for appletalk i dunno if hp still does the upgrades but i received many offers i just didn t ned it however also crisp laser quality output is a wonder used to really impress those imagewriter dot matrix people so much so that i had to charge per sheet to stop my college dorm neighbors from bothering me at all hours of the night disadvantages ink used to be hard to find and wasn t cheap and wasn t originally water proof while hp has done wonders with the ink i dunno if it s still toxic it is still subjet to smearing and running if you run around in the damp boston rain and get your bookbag completely soaked ink now runs about for small carts i get mine from elek tek in chicago i think they re now down to the ink carts used to say they re dated for only months but i don t think they say so anymore we stick to a month supply of about carts we use cheap hammerhill laser print paper after fooling for a long time laser xerox paper is also good smearing doesn t happen unless you have a brand new ink cart and you grab the paper and smudge it all over as soon as it comes out of the machine other disadvantages are no postscript this can be an advantage in speed usually ways around this are ghostscript or freedom of press software solutions i bet hp probably has a ps prototype inkjet but they won t release it for fear of hurting lj sales in the end the primary advantages of laser are true postscript unless you go for cheap lasers and fused toner no smearing even when soaking in water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where i needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching i found a textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer to work the best to make pcb negatives directly onto a transparency well hope my babbling has helped squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes stuff about hardware keys if you put another computer on the port instead of the key you can hack them by reading what happens so i ve been told i ve never seen this done but i think it s possible you d need some hardware knowledge and some software to read the port true which is why many of the newer keys ship out oh maybe bits or so have the key encrypt them and return them to the pc making a bunch of these bits part of your program code is a good way to make sure things won t run without the key anyway then this scheme at least defeats your approach it s a little costly though personally i don t believe in copy protection and agree with the thought that the mass inconvenience that it causes all legal users far outweighs the gains from what few pirates won t be able to copy the program joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re help with phone wire which ones are tip ring in article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin writes i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin mike ring is the red wire tip is the green wire of most standard phone lines they two constitute the two wires most often used for voice telephone the two live lines they are the two innermost connectors of an rj phone jack another way of telling is that if you measure voltage from red to green ring to tip tip green being at ground potential of the voltmeter it should read volts in the on hook no ring position i am sure it s v and not volts doesn t hurt a phone too much if they re reversed it s just bad if one happens to somehow get grounded to earth ground elsewhere additionally when off hook the voltage drops to about to volts dc i think it is supposed to correspond to a to ma current loop and lastly when ringing the two wires develop an ac potential of about v p p at to hz across them where you get the electromechanical old fashioned bell ringer from hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re blinking leds in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes where can i buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate by voltage i guess if so what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable or set to i d like blinking leds that can be set for approx hz hz hz or hz something like that i m interested in what s out there for flash rates i like the idea of leds with flasher circuits already in them i hate soldering ics in general guess i don t have a hell of a lot of patience thanks dana if you want slow led flash rates adjustable by switches or by a digitally controlled switch i suggest looking at a oscillator chip they cost at radio shack much cheaper in quantity at quality places and you will be able to find good info about simple circuits in a oscialltor notebook i think forest mims has one at radio shack you ll have to toy with resistor capacitor values or you can use your head with a little math to get the right frequencies any engineer worth his salt can make a osciallator it s in the book and left up to you to see i hate doing ascii circuit graphics the can accurately go from a few hz to about khz i think about the tape recorder gizmo you could alter a stereo tape deck to use one channel as a data line for flashing led and one as audio line for voice or music this would eliminate a lot of noise the data line is probably most easily done by some kind of pll or bandpass filter using just an op amp the chip is a good pll and not hard to work with however if you nothing about how a pll works i suggest you don t try this op amp information can also be found in the forest mims radio shack info booklets and the popular op amp is a snap to work with setting frequency and bandpass filter values are not so easy so i would suggest the method firstmost i have no idea what this is going into so i am really generalizing as for manufacturing techniques if you re only goofing with it i suggest you breadboard the thing no need to solder wire wrap would be the next more permanent step and lastly soldering pcb making hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article qkf hinn c rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes in article c jch frc ulowell ulowell edu wex cs ulowell edu writes in article apr csx cciw ca u csx cciw ca g stewart beal writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest well if you re willing to spend a little money you could buy one of those ide caching controllers assuming you have an ide of course and put the k simms on them hardware cache srikanth
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i thought the first thread was hilarious so here goes another post some more background information on what has happened to my poor batteries one year i left the batteries in the garage the garage is unheated they were left in their places that they needed to be one in the riding lawnmower what a lux and one in each motorcycle the battery in the riding lawnmower was about years old and one of the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time i discovered that all of the batteries were dead and needed to be recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had to be replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored in the garage and i think i remember my dad charging them in spring last year i decided to bring them in to the basement which has two parts one is dirt and brick and the other is concrete i brought in all three and discovered in the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when i put the charger on them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around in other words it was pinned the internal circut tripped and i went on to the other batteries they were the same realizing that we still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid i decided to put the charger on them these had been sitting for around and a half years on the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed a small charge around hours or so on trickle i tested them by using them at the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around of em this leads me to believe one of several things i bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something to do with the discharge of the batteries there was enough moisture to short out the terminals in the room where the concrete is the dirt room was able to absorb the moisture in the air better than concrete btw i can almost waterski in the dirt room any other ideas could be the aliens anything is possible the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pb pbo h so pbso h lead and lead iv oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water the standard heats of formation at c f of the various compounds are heat of formation compound at c kcal mole pb pbo h so pbso h the heat of reaction at c is therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate is not very soluble grams per grams water at c and it will thus precipitate out of solution where the reaction is occurring or the cathode positive terminal of the battery i am almost sure it is the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but i may be wrong oh well i don t have a corroded battery to corrobate and i don t feel like thinking through it right now what is important to notice here is that the reaction as you knew it would be is exothermic or energy discharging if moisture with dissolved electrolytes acid rain condenses on the battery a conductive path between the terminals may form this will discharge the battery as the chemical reaction proceeds the reaction is reversible if electricity from an alternator or battery charger is put back into the battery lead acid batteries must change in chemical composition to discharge each cell has all the reactants necessary for the reaction the non reacting posts terminals of the lead acid battery are there to remove or add electric energy during a discharge or charge because the reaction is exothermic it has a tendency to happen though quite slowly under normal circumstances so while keeping the battery dry is a good idea it is not a total solution to understand why lead acid batteries do indeed discharge faster when stored on concrete as opposed to wood or earth dirt one should recall lechatelier s principle which can be paraphrased as anything subjected to some stress will act to move to a more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities of a some selected materials thermal conductivity material temperature c f btu hr ft ft f ft diatomaceous earth natural across strata diatomaceous natural parallel to strata diatomaceous earth powder density lb cu ft concrete cinder stone dry pine across grain parallel to grain oak across grain maple across grain note that the thermal conductivity for dirt diatomaceous earth goes down with temperature also c is about k and the values for earth powder are on the same order of magnitude as natural earth the thermal conductivity of concrete is around a factor of greater than that of dirt and is times greater than wood it is these differences in thermal conductivity that cause the battery on concrete to discharge faster than that on dirt or wood at any instant the discharge reaction is occurring energy is being released either as electricity or heat thermal conductivity of air is about btu hr ft ft f ft during storage except for the trickle that passes through any condensate on the battery this energy is mostly released as heat the higher conductivity surface will remove the heat proportionately faster than the lower conductivity surface thus if you perfectly insulated a dry battery on all but the bottom surface at any given battery temperature above the storage surface temperature the battery on a concrete surface will be discharging about times faster than that on dirt this is where lechatelier s principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further to completion if the reaction normally occurs at room temperature keeping the battery at that temperature requires the removal of any heat produced a concrete surface is a better heat sink than a dirt or wood surface store a battery in the corner of a poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along also if water evaporates from the battery that elevates the ratio of sulfuric acid to water this will tend to drive the discharge reaction jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu how do i get the ketchup out of my pocket protector french fries
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
sci.electronics	re rpm floopy drives update in article c wiee gn ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes hopefully this should sort it all out not bad for quid normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates but what is a quid how does it relate to the british pound or whatever it s called and what is that in american dollars k sorry should have used correct terminology quid knicker approx u s dollars the terry pratchett book good omens contains an adequate explanation of the rather strange uk money system past and present for americans tibetans and other alien species michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing most if not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se swedish institute of computer science phone intn l box telefon nat l s kista sweden fax
sci.electronics	pals gals does anyone know how can i get detailed information about pals and gals please reply via e mail thanks a lot in advance red paola dei unipd it red maya dei unipd it
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task this is just basicly right the connections that cannot handle touchtone dialing is very few i would estimate a couple of percents and if you are in a bigger town there is none that cannot handle tone dialing and regarding our swedish dialing system a rather screwd up system that does just apply to pulsdialing not to touchtone btw norway is even more interesting they got both system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live joakim gunnarsson tde abacus hgs se
sci.electronics	rf communications link hi our problem is the following we have to design an rf link for a distance of m we re using standard rs waves square pulses as the modulating waves and the carrier wave is sinusoidal the link has to be bidirectional we would appreciate any advice on the type of modulating techniques or antennas that we should use please internet email us at gjf witsvma wits ac za nando or bww witsvma wits ac za warren or blumenow underdog ee wits ac za warren thank you very much in advance n w
sci.electronics	re blue led s gladman aviv said re blue led s to all on ga in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap ga energy within the region of to electron volts according to my ga physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap ga that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other ga colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve ga seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light ga led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light this is not true they have and do make blue led s they are about in digikey nm wavelength by the way stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on sun at i think k will be enough bill gates blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rgka n k corax udac uu se tde hgs se joakim gunnarsson writes two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task i think all connections in norway can handle touchtone dialing not to touchtone btw norway is even more interesting they got both system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live the oslo region has one system the rest of the country another system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live almost right for pulsdialing some phones have a little switch inside so you are able to use them all over norway or you can just renumber the numbers on your phone anders bj o rnestad division of computer science and telematics norwegian inst of technology trondheim norway email abjoern idt unit no internet x c no prmd uninett o unit ou idt s abjoern
sci.electronics	caltech puff pd ftp rf tools hi there does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site as i understand it it is in the public domain please correct me if i m wrong on this one any other pd rf design tools out there that can be recommended especially microstrip filter tools s lehane lehane kellett g kmh siemens nixdorf information systems bracknell lehane sni co uk phone fax compuserve standard disclaimers apply warranty void if opened
sci.electronics	re how to drive an array of leds ptorre hardy u washington edu phil torre writes i have a project in mind that requires an array of leds that can be addressed individually by a microprocessor say x or so is there an lsi that is designed to drive an led array including ram to hold the array state or failing that some way of multiplexing the display so i don t have to latch a bit for each led using a discrete latch i want to avoid having a huge board covered with s if possible thanks in advance maxim makes a chip that does exactly what you want the max drives segment led displays with full decode or drives discrete led s with a wire serial interface the chips can also be cascaded to allow very large arrays i am working on a sign display using this part i ll have to post the contact info for maxim later it s at home there was a series of articles on this chip in the last couple of circuit cellar ink s mike harpe michael harpe programmer analyst information technology ormsby bldg mike hermes louisville edu university of louisville louisville ky he s not a man he s a remorseless eating machine the simpsons
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected comments about who needs backup copies and you do deleted i ll toss in my cents worth i ve begun to think that distribution disks are made on some of the least reliable floppy disk stocks available we ve been especially plagued by borland s distribution disks i m lucky if i can install from them as many as times before they crap out on me so definitely as a matter of course we always make copies to do our installations with paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards opinion is understandable i assume you have a tape drive not all of us have about floppies around for backup you know actually no i don t have a tape drive in the event of a total hard disk failure i reinstall the apps from originals and restore the data from the backups i keep of that with upwards of mb of stuff on my hard disk there is no way i m going to try and back it all up without a tape drive would be nice to have one though ram is something you add all the time so no it s more like bios manufacturer and or processor type etc data cannot be used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates on a diskette maybe maybe not today it doesn t happen as often i would hope but then if a bios is buggy and the user gets an upgrade the bios information is going to change at least the date anyway tagging the bios manufacturer is still going to falsely tag those users who upgrade the motherboard this type of upgrade doesn t require a hard disk backup restore on the other hand to make this less intrusive it could be disguised as please insert original disk xx as i need file yyyyyy for update it would be perfectly reasonable sort of as long as it wasn t done too terribly often otherwise i think it would get annoying and the user would go looking for other software this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone of course it is easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what is your point of course not if something gets corrupted and my app needs to be reinstalled the worst thing i want that software telling me is this software has already been registered to blank and it is against the law to install it on other machines or something similar access for windows does this and it only requires a click on ok to go away pretty non intrusive but it gets the point across what i said was the program should have certain restriction such as the restrict to one machine until the program is registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with a patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered to xxx screen this is a great idea i like the key system that some shareware products use the only problem is that it will be difficult for big software companies to implement this without it getting very cost ineffective for them and more of a burden than a benefit to the users steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask me about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	clear lcd or led sheets i am interested in finding a supplier for an array of leds on material which is transparent when nothing is lit i m not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but i would guess they are not too clear an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very course this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated mark battisti mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu summit street b columbus ohio
sci.electronics	digital ac scaling being in the visualization stage of a circuit design right now i was wondering what the best way to scale an ac voltage using an bit digital word is i am thinking of using the common method of sending the word through an adc and then comparing it with the ac voltage converted to a sawtooth wave to get a duty cycle however i am leary of this method because it a requires a lot of parts and more importantly b creates a lot of interference from the switching on the entire ac line i realize that correct filtering could cancel out most of this interference but that would require more parts and boost the price further someone mentioned to me that they had seen an ic which input bits of data and directly scaled the ac voltage coming in all on chip unfortunately he couldn t remember the chip number or the manufacturer if anyone else has heard of this chip please e mail me i am building this project as a dimmer box for a light controller circuit and it is important that the cost of each box remains very low because one dimmer is required for each light that the user wishes to control well each channel at least therefor if each box costs i doubt that an end user will want to dish out x for sixteen channels this is something i have noticed about today s dimmer boxes they are so expensive anyway any help which someone could offer on either a method of easily doing this or info about the chip which will do it for me always the preferred method will be greatly appreciated michael carr m carr onu edu
sci.electronics	re rf communications link in article blumenow underdog ee wits ac za blumenow underdog ee wits ac za warren blumenow writes we have to design an rf link for a distance of m we re using standard rs waves square pulses as the modulating waves and the carrier wave is sinusoidal the link has to be bidirectional we would appreciate any advice on the type of modulating techniques or antennas that we should use what frequency is your carrier have you considered using two tones one for and another for how high is your rs data rate can you use more than one carrier freq have you considered hiring an rf data transmission consultant just curious galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com billn hpcvaac cv hp com bill nelson writes brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes listen to the interference if you hear voices clearly it almost certainly isn t ham radio and might well be cb if you can record a bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally why can t he record it legally it may not be admissable in court but recording for personal use is legal if he wants to play it for his ham friend that s legal too as long as he doesn t charge admission unfortunately most consumer equipment is succeptable it is all poorly designed here here btw hams are allowed amplifiers cb isn t illegal ham amplifier doesn t compute it does but not for a mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power a watt amplifier bill it doesn t actually have to be watts at feet i ve heard radio transmissions from concert security over guitar amps with no guitar plugged in and security uses radios transmitting watts into a rubber duck antenna which acts more like a dummy load than an antenna hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	what type of ic is this greets i have an ic i need help in identifying it is an pin ic with the following label w w any help would be greatly appreciated in identifying this chip kevin kevin jones kpjone ulkyvx ct louisville edu lab supervisor kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu computing and telecommunications phone university of louisville ky fax the only good racist is a dead racist
sci.electronics	help looking for oscilloscope source hi all i am looking for a new oscilloscope bk b it looks like goldstar os s if i can find one cheap enough and would like suggestions on a low priced source for them currently btw fry s electronics in los angeles has the b for the best price i ve seen overall for now they carry the gs os s for but i need the s because of the mhz b w thanks all joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re clear lcd or led sheets mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu mark a battisti writes i am interested in finding a supplier for an array of leds on material which is transparent when nothing is lit i m not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but i would guess they are not too clear an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very course this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does it have to be transparent as in totally transparent or just transparent enough to allow light from the other side to shine through joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re silver solder andy shiekh shiekh ictp trieste it wrote i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal andy for the most part silver solder is not used for general soldering tasks due to the mechanism of dendritic growth silver solder when exposed to high humidity and placed in an electric field will actually grow dendrites which are conductive and will adventually electrically short across closely spaced nodes which are creating the field for this reason silver is allowed only in hermetically sealed assemblies fortunatly tin lead solder is quite stable and will not grow dendrites as fast as silver solder therefore it is used extensively jerry long long spk hp com disclaimer opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet there is a cartridge capping upgrade for older deskjet printers available from hewlett packard older original deskjet and possibly deskjet units may have a black plastic slide with rubber capping components in the cartrige parking area on the right side viewed from front of the printer newer printers have a gray or white plastic slide the black plastic slide can allow your cartridge to dry out there was and may still be information packaged with ink cartridges explaining the situation hp placed a coupon for a free upgrade kit to modernize old deskjets to the new capping mechanism i did this on my printer and did indeed find that the cartidges now last longer i don t have the information handy i suggest contacting your nearest hp service center for information on obtaining the kit hp has upgrade kits that consist of electronics and mechanical components that vary depending on the starting level printer and the level to which you wish to upgrade i upgraded my original desket to a dekjet the kit was fairly expensive you are likely better off selling your old printer and purchasing a new deskjet now that prices have declined so much upgrading an original deskjet to requires a fair amount of skill but no soldering upgrading a deskjet plus to a is involves swapping the processor card and changing a few minor parts contact your hp service center for further information the pcl language used by deskjets is considerably different from the pcl used by laser printers especially the newer laser printers the biggest problem is dumb laser drivers that send a raster end command after each scan line this makes no material difference for lasers but causes the deskjet to print the accumulated raster as you might guess the result is hideously slow printing the new dos wordperfect print deskjet drivers are still guilty of this particular behavior from the way wordperfect works this would not be easy to change windows wordperfect works efficiently unless you use the dos drivers instead of windows the pcl dialect used in the laserjet iiip allows compression that permits a full page dpi image to be rendered with only one megabyte of memory an uncompressed image could be as large as about kbytes but the printer needs about k of memory for its internal house keeping laserjet iv models support banded printing that allows incrmental download of the image with compression in limited memory situations deskjet downloadable fonts are not compatible with laserjet fonts a single page from a laserjet only requires about seconds this is faster than any but the most trivial printing from a deskjet printer the presumption of course being that the laser printer has completed its warm up cyle until ink chemistry is changed wicking resulting in image deterioration is unavoidable i won t use the word impossible but matching laser quality output from a deskjet printer is unlikely chosing an appropriate paper type helps but does not eliminate the problem laser printers are more wastful of energy and consumable components hp does accept return of spent toner cartridges mitigating the material waste problem to a degree energy waste could use more work warm up times have decreased allowing stand by current consumption to be significantly reduced in the laserjet iv kyocera produces a laser print engine that employs an amorphous silicon imaging drum with a replacable toner system the image drum is good for approximately k copies it is a very nice print engine i wish hp used the kyocera engine kyocera also has a neat modular paper source and stacker system the recommended duty cycle for a deskjet is significantly lower than any of hp s laser printers the pick up pressure rollers are subject to wear and i case confirm eventually do wear out the usual symptom is that the printer becomes reluctant to feed paper the paper feed is integrated in a transport mechanism that is a single part from hp service replacement cost for the transport is almost the feed rollers are not separately replacable though it would not be a difficult job for a competent technician i have disassembled and reassembled the transport on my own printer it depends upon the application which printer is best for you if you only print or pages a day and are satisfied with the appearance of output the deskjet is a very good choice as noted the deskjet is my choice for personal use bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re blue led s baden de bari baden inqmind bison mb ca wrote so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s if your looking for leds in the range forget it blue leds just recently became available and the materials they are made of are expensive maybe in the future they will become less expensive and brighter but for now it s going to cost you and the output will be limited if they ever do get as efficient and cost effective as red and green leds you re probably going to see a whole new family of color displays charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re multiple inputs for pc in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated abhin singla if you can modify the design of the dtmf decoder the ideal comunications would be over a multi drop system like rs rs boards are available for pc s probably cheaper than a bunch of rs channels and rs is cheaper to build onto your satellite modules using only a single supply pin dip driver chip software at the pc end would be similarly complex for either rs or rs in my opinion the higher data rates possible with rs would permit quasi simultaneous data transmission hope this helps rod nussbaumer programmer technologist bitnet bomr triumfer triumf university of british columbia internet bomr erich triumf ca vancouver bc canada phone ext
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days i don t know much about phones in germany but this is what i know i bought a phone in the u s for my mother who lives in bratislava slovakia and it works just fine the problem is they don t have wall jacks like we do here there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may hope this helps dagmar kniha carson u washington edu
sci.electronics	radar laser detectors what are people s opinions about laser detectors escort makes a laser detector the passport and claims it works fine however i ve talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you are lucky i e if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in front of you and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your detector otherwise it won t work regular radar of course travels in all directions hence it is more detectable any comments escort has a deal till the end of april i think where if you buy their wideband passport x k ka and laser detectors you ll save off of buying them separately in this case the addition of the laser detector over the passport is only i e passport normally costs eddie gornish university of illinois center for supercomputing research development gornish csrd uiuc edu
sci.electronics	re how do you build neural networks in article rbs e m s insti physics sunysb edu mmoss ic sunysb edu matthew d moss writes subject says it all though i should specify that i m looking for solutions that don t require me purchasing specific chips etc first you find a congenial member of the opposite sex thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university of central fl research parkway suite orlando fl fax clarke acme ucf edu i couldn t resist
sci.electronics	re caltech puff pd ftp rf tools in article apr sni co uk mje sni co uk mike evis writes hi there does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site as i understand it it is in the public domain please correct me if i m wrong on this one puff is sold by caltech although very inexpensively for the quality source was also available for the earlier releases for a nominal charge but i m not sure if this practise is continued regards stu beal ve mwm u csx cciw ca national water research institute burlington ontario canada we d made it through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten its first robin kyle j spiller
sci.electronics	re luser in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes hi i am looking for a high speed d to a converter at least bits and mhz for testing a chip any ideas on where i can find such a monster a paper in the january issue of ieee journal of solid state circuits authors from philips eindhoven mentions a ghz bits gaas dac they use in their testing so i know that such circuits are around somewhere triquint beaverton oregon has been selling an bit ghz d to a for several years i have used it and it works well faster settling time and smaller glitch area than any video d dacs i have seen also they have been developing a more precise version that may be for sale now it s somewhere in the to bit area at ghz arnold frisch tektronix laboratories
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet the green layer is a solder mask and is used to make a finished board look neat and to avoid solder bridges especially when using wave soldering or any other mechanized approach i ve seen red mask but most that i ve seen are green a bakelite board will look brown in colour and if the solder mask is put on looks like a brown board with green paint on either side or just one side of the board a fibreglass board will look green from the side because the green solder mask makes the board appear that colour if you got a fibreglass board with no mask it would be a whitish grey colour teflon boards do exist as well but i m not sure about that one i d guess the stuff they invented for solder mask was green so they re not about to change also any change in any chemical probably requires a better than normal cleaning of the machines that make boards a lot of companies do not make their own boards they ship them to a real boardhouse
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes in an earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more i didn t say the program is disabled did i i hate it when people take my words out of context i mean that once you have installed it you cannot deinstall it without registering it or transfer it to another machine or some sort of limitation the author will decide which will be removed when the program is registered kasey chang
sci.electronics	re what type of ic is this in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu writes i have an ic i need help in identifying it is an pin ic with the following label w w the w is the date code but none of my books list a w what is it out of and can you tell us what kind of circuit it is in in the odd case that w is not the date code nte says a is an am reciever subsystem and a is an fm subsystem but these are both in pin packages more info please galewn watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst jackp netsys com jack powers writes i would like to hook up some cameras that were recently donated to our local community cable tv station which have sync inputs in the form of horizontal and vertical drive our station sync is a black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point me at a design article or whatever showing how to produce the horizontal vertical drive signals check the station s master sync generator you ll probably find that it already has horizontal and vertical drive outputs that just aren t being used a couple of cables and you re in business another possibility is to find a genlockable sync generator with hd and vd outputs genlock it to station sync and then feed hd and vd to the cameras if neither of these is possible then you ll have to build a sync separator look at the circuit diagrams of your existing sync generators they probably all include circuitry that does what you want dave
sci.electronics	features for answering machines esp digital hello i m curious what sort of neat features exist on high end answering machines today in particular i m interested in features of digital answering machines also what is the typical amount of storage in minutes for these digital answering machines the reason i m hacking together an answering machine program for my zyxel modem and i m wondering if i m missing something on my wish list arthur the first fact to face is that unix was not developed with security in any reliable sense in mind this fact alone guarantees a vast number of holes on the security of unix dennis m ritchie arthur tateishi ruhtra turing utoronto ca
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes when soaking in water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where i needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching i found a textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer to work the best to make pcb negatives directly onto a transparency did the deskjet work at all when printing on transparencies if it did what sort of resolution could it manage adrian adrian godwin agodwin acorn co uk adrian fangorn demon co uk g hwn gb khw obdisclaimer i believe this rubbish don t imagine that anyone else does
sci.electronics	re descrambling channels sean oliver sean oliver mindlink bc ca wrote i live up in british columbia canada the cable company i use is called rogers cable does anyone know of their scrambling techniques and ways of getting around them any suggestions of what they might use i don t know the answer to your question but i am sure rogers cable can so i tool the libery of forwarding your question to them and i am sure they will be in touch marc christensen
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out is the solvent the same as what s used to clean up the goop in coax whatever that is but it just barely ties this query into sci electronics thanks for your help best regards ruck john r ruckstuhl jr ruck alpha ee ufl edu dept of electrical engineering ruck cis ufl edu uflorida ruck university of florida ruck sphere cis ufl edu sphere ruck
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal oh yes the good ol deutsche bundespost shortly after moving to germany someone told me that post is an acronym for the public organization for the suppression of technology stimmt oder i miss a lot of things about germany yes including the bier vending machines at work that were subsidized by the firm but the phone system is not one of them tom spraggins tas virginia edu
sci.electronics	re removing battery corrosion from article apr princeton edu by fuchs tsar princeton edu ira h fuchs is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time generally the corrosion is a signal that it s time to send them of to the recyclers but if you re that desperate or cheap try baking soda and a wire brush use gloves and goggles please
sci.electronics	references for any ic i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made does such a text exist are there docs on the internet that reference ic s it would be a great idea if each major ic manufacturer made available to the public an anonymous ftp site with all it s data books in the form of text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the ic manufacturer since a text file costs nothing to send around the world via internet and since most users of ic s are found in the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference as many as possible or am i going to be stuck obtaining a zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years
sci.electronics	re clear lcd or led sheets an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very coarse this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does it have to be transparent as in totally transparent or just transparent enough to allow light from the other side to shine through yes it has to be very clear like it wasn t there and of course cost is always a factor i am trying to get an idea of the feasability of such an idea but i don t want to give too much away mark
sci.electronics	re voice synth chips alltronics in san jose sells the votrax sc speech synthesis chip for about also i noticed that radio shack sells the isd chip which will store small amounts of digitized speech good luck
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes in an earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more i didn t say the program is disabled did i i hate it when people take my words out of context i mean that once you have installed it you cannot deinstall it without registering it or transfer it to another machine or some sort of limitation the author will decide which will be removed when the program is registered what you can t remove it unless you register you gotta be joking right what happens if i get a demo version of that program install it and then decide that i don t like it do i have to register to be able to get rid of it hell no that is the last thing i would think of if that is what you mean then you would better make pretty sure that a statement to that effect is printed loud and clear on the package a better way to implement the above mentioned scheme is imho to allow anyone to install the program but if they register they get some additional features enabled it could mean only one new exe file needed to be copied to have got the full version of the program of course anyone is free to delete or remove that program at whatever time they like still we face the trouble of moving the new exe file around that could be solved by having the user registering him self and get back a specially marked for him or her a new exe file as for some sort of limitations here are some suggestions limit the size of data that the program can work with disable saving the data print it out with some defects in the output but be sure to mark them as such let some pop up screen appear for ca secs when the program is started and or exited etc but don t have it that you must register to be able to remove it einari rhi hi is
sci.electronics	re flexible solar cells in article apr r node hub org wayne r node hub org wayne dawe writes two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product any help would be greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick a path any path but don t send me wayne r node hub org anything bigger than k wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci on ca wayne r node uucp wayne look for these advertised in sailboat supplies catalogs and sail related magazines eg sail david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive st louis mo
sci.electronics	re d g h type amplifiers in article unix andrew cmu edu mark yeck writes hey can someone clue me in on these and other weird types of amplifiers just a brief intro to the concepts behind these would be cool i have the clues on type a b and ab already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and i dont know what they do i think type d is like a pwm scheme or something thanx in advanced the whole point to these weird amplifier types is improved efficiency class d amps are pwm pulse width modulation amps which work very much like switching power supplies i think i ve seen these things called class s before as well they re capable of very high efficiencies and would be suitable for very high power i ve yet to see anything like this used in an audiophile amp though i ve been trying to design a three kilowatter for the last year to be used as an inverter for an ups but have been having serious problems with layout parasitics irf s in parallel any help with a do able isolated drive ckt would be appreciated i m not absolutely positive about this but i beleive a class g amp is one that operates off a variable or switched power supply rail voltage the carver amps do something like this they use some sort of phase control circuit i do not fully understand its operation to reduce the transformer size and i beleive that is patented i had an m apart trying to fix and found that it had three rail voltages that it switched between i ran a simulation on pspice and found that the topology would greatly reduce power dissipation heat under large signal conditions or when driving reactive loads which draw high current at the zero voltage crossings think speaker dr diode great sound starts with warren eggo csee usf edu the source warren renoir cftnet com
sci.electronics	emi filter what s in it could someone tell me what s in a cornell dubilier emi filter fil it is rated at a vac hz is it just mov s and ferrite dave n mxx stevens institute of technology hoboken new jersey
sci.electronics	re how to get rid of flyback whine in article apr princeton edu jsm shade princeton edu john scott mccauley jr writes i recently took apart my color sony tv to clean the volume pushbuttons and when i put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder is this easy to fix which part is resonating i have heard rumors of a spray that will fix the noise is this a simple thing for a tv repairman to fix thanks scott ah ha i m not alone at last which sony do you have i have a sxr pre xbr series circa that damn thing used to make noise like a mad man i had have separate problems one being the flyback the other was the assembly where the windings of the yoke came together first i found by poking around the windings on that assembly the thing would make noise i guess that there was enough of a potential in that assembly to leak so i sprayed it with a dielectric insulation spray i think it was urethane or acyrilic that fixed it second flyback for the life of me i can t isolate this one if i leave the cover off the tv will be quiet if i put the cover back on and let it heat up it ll start to whine kinda hard to solve with the cover on a friend of mine who used to fix tv s says there might be a pin hole leak somewhere on the flyback usually it s surrounded by a bunch of black dust dirt i hope this is a start if you find something out let me know aaron
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing i assume however that most areas are still exclusively set to pulse dialing last time i checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common in germany bringin with it the flourishing of services in germany i just hope we ll all have isdn some time at an affordable price idle wishes markus iturriaga things go smoother with lard iturriag utkvx utk edu bring back the glory that was grease iturriag utkvx bitnet east tennessee lard advisory council millard fillmore lives we ve got what it takes to take what you ve got
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green why are circuit boards green the material used to make them goes by two names if it is used to make circuit boards it is called fr the same material is used in the cryogenics industrya and marine industries as a structural material and is called g fr and g are both green they are not green because of a solder masking agent the basic ingredients are a clear epoxy resin and glass fibers i am not sure what the specs are on the resin but if you are really curious you can call nema national electronics manufacturing association or ciba geigy a major manufacturer of epoxy resins to find out as an aside i occasionally mix clear epoxy and glass microsphres to cast small structures for cryogenics experiments the proportions of glass to epoxy are about the same as in g they are the same green color
sci.electronics	fiber optic modems for sale cheap ok i sold all but these i had some offers and i accepted an offer of for the pair from bdale gag com bdale garbee i don t know what happened to him but he won t reply now that i accepted it so i ll offer these again please take these and use them take advantage of me i really don t know what they are worth qty canoga perkins fiber optic modems model rs interface appear new i have powered up but that s all i have not used them and i cannot tell you whether they work or not make offer thanks and please buy this stuff or it goes out the door mack mdgoodma cbda apgea army mil
sci.electronics	re references for any ic in a previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made does such a text exist are there docs on the internet that reference ic s it would be a great idea if each major ic manufacturer made available to the public an anonymous ftp site with all it s data books in the form of text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the ic manufacturer since a text file costs nothing to send around the world via internet and since most users of ic s are found in the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference as many as possible or am i going to be stuck obtaining a zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years we use a cd rom based system here there are about cd rom disks and a disk changer hooked to a dedicated ms dos computer it contains scanned images of data book pages for several thousand parts when you ask it for something it knows about mostly active ic parts it works quite well they don t handle all the varieties of transistors or diodes that exist it is definately a start in the right direction but they need to expand the data base to handle more types of stuff these systems aren t cheap we paid about for the liscence and get monthly updates of some of the cd rom disks we send the old ones back to them so that they will keep sending us the updates i think we pay a yearly maintainence fee of about to get the updates if you find the part you want you can look at the data sheet on a page sized monitor it s a special monitor from sigmasystems you can also print each page of the datasheet you want on a laserjet printer page printing takes a couple of minutes per page it can take a while to dump the or pages you usually need i have a feeling the maker wouldn t like it if we made the data available to all internet users dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com n w
sci.electronics	mystery part i have a mystery part labeled nec ac it s from the low voltage supply of an nec multisync i monitor it s a three lead part in a square package like a volate regulator or power transistor the board is labeled cr where the part goes possibly an scr the pin labeled g on the board goes to a zener diode reference voltage the pin labeled t goes to the negative lead of a capacitor in the power supply and the pin labeled t goes to the negative side of the bridge rectifier in the supply if anyone can tell me what this is or better yet where i can buy one just like it please email me at ck i andrew cmu edu i ve called nec s monitor repair number and not only do they not know what the part is but they don t think that they can find one to sell to me it makes no sense to me thanks
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu
sci.electronics	ranger shareware hello the last issue of electronics world describes ranger a pcb cad program according to the article there is a crippled version available as shareware does anybody know of any ftp sites bbses where this program may be found thanks in advance terje malmedal unix dhmolde no
sci.electronics	re how universal are video phones these days just saw an article in new scientist at t videophones won t talk to bti videophones the at t ones use a kb modem bti uses kb at t models have to communicate using all at t exchanges whereas the bti can route via most current exchanges suggestions include building standards converters into telephone exchanges the mind boggles the bti design is a bit more conservative and is better able to cope with current data compression hardware on long distance lines not having the magazine to hand i may have mis remembered bti i think it is a british one made by gec marconi and currently selling to other countries yet another standards screw up andrew daviel vancouver canada advax triumf ca finger advax reg triumf ca for pgp key
sci.electronics	fm transmitter ics help i am trying to design a small mw mhz fm transmitter for remote alarm use is there an fm transmitter ic available that can be used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will be greatfully accepted please reply to bsc graham seqeb gov au thanks in advance graham castledine
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pb pbo h so pbso h lead and lead iv oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water heats of formation deleted the heat of reaction at c is therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate is not very soluble grams per grams water at c and it will thus precipitate out of solution where the reaction is occurring or the cathode positive terminal of the battery i am almost sure it is the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but i may be wrong oh well i don t have a corroded battery to corrobate and i don t feel like thinking through it right now the major problem with this is that the reaction takes place in an acid solution pbso is soluble in an acid solution and will not precipitate out also h so is in a water solution as h and so thus the heats of formation of pbso and h so are for the most part irrelevant what is important to notice here is that the reaction as you knew it would be is exothermic or energy discharging as it turns out the reaction is indeed exothermic heat producing more about this later what actually happens to make the battery completely useless is this we re talking lead acid batteries of course the battery slowly self discharges as this discharge takes place two things happen the level of pb ions in the acid solution increases i e the lead and lead oxide plates are dissolved the level of h ions in the acid solution decreases i e the solution becomes less acidic or more like water if you like now as the post to which i am responding correctly stated pbso will precipitate in a water non acid solution when the battery dies i e is fully discharged we end up with a high concentration of pb and so in water so pbso forms in the solution and falls to the bottom of the battery of course this happens in varying degrees the more discharged the more precipitate forms the precipitate forms a conductive layer on the bottom of the battery if there is enough of the lead and lead oxide plates left to touch the precipitate more common in a newer battery a dead short results i have seen products in automotive shops to correct this condition but they are for the most part useless they can dissolve the pbso but cannot restore the lead and lead oxide plates properly you may have some success with these products for a newer battery stuff deleted to understand why lead acid batteries do indeed discharge faster when stored on concrete as opposed to wood or earth dirt one should recall lechatelier s principle which can be paraphrased as anything subjected to some stress will act to move to a more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities of a some selected materials stuff deleted this is where lechatelier s principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further to completion if the reaction normally occurs at room temperature keeping the battery at that temperature requires the removal of any heat produced a concrete surface is a better heat sink than a dirt or wood surface store a battery in the corner of a poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along this stuff is just made up by the author and is completely invalid in fact the discharge reaction takes place at a higher rate at higher temperatures a logical consequence of the above argument is this if you really want your car to start lower the battery temperature to to pull the reaction along we all know from experience at least those of us in canada do it gets cold up here that this is not true if we want to start our car on a really cold day we warm the battery besides which there is not enough energy released through self discharge to appreciably raise the temperature the air would amply dissipate any such heat whether the bottom of the battery was insulated or not this is of course irrelevant since you would want the battery to be cool during storage just keep the battery in a cool dry place and keep it charged
sci.electronics	re pcmcia in article d nac cc synapse org martin vuille synapse org martin vuille writes does anyone know who to contact to obtain a copy of the pcmcia standard pcmcia g east duane st sunnyvale ca usa see also alt periphs pcmcia thanks dave pierson the facts as accurately as i can manage digital equipment corporation the opinions my own old bolton rd i am the nra stow mass usa pierson msd enet dec com he has read everything and to his credit written nothing a j raffles
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive i have used a product called goof off it comes in a little yellow can about the size of a deck of playing cards it has worked well for removing all kinds of sticker and tape residues note always test a small area in an inconspicuous place before using good luck wes whiteley wesw sr hp com
sci.electronics	pre fab pc case power supplies and csa ul fcc stuff what kind of csa ul fcc approval do mail order pc computer cases and power supplies have can i assume that the certification process for small scale custom hardware ie digital analog circuitry is reduced or even eliminated if i use such a case and certified power supply also assuming that i use a certified power supply have i satisfied the requirements of csa ul approval and possibly fcc approval as well do mail order pc cases satisfy fcc certification is fcc certification even necessary for scientific non commercial non residential use
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes at least locally many shops carry a product called goo gone it works well on scummy gummy sticky goop that won t go away as always color test in an inconspicuous corner before use joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i still think a major point is being missed if you are worried about software pirates nothing will stop them these are people who crack software mostly games but so what daily for fun they can usually find a crack around anything especially if the manufacturer leaves a hole for such a thing are we having fun yet
sci.electronics	re radar laser detectors in article gornish apr sp csrd uiuc edu gornish sp csrd uiuc edu edward h gornish writes what are people s opinions about laser detectors escort makes a laser detector the passport and claims it works fine however i ve talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you are lucky i e if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in front of you and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your detector otherwise it won t work regular radar of course travels in all directions hence it is more detectable any comments escort has a deal till the end of april i think where if you buy their wideband passport x k ka and laser detectors you ll save off of buying them separately in this case the addition of the laser detector over the passport is only i e passport normally costs uniden makes an all in one unit x k ka laser for about colorado radar sells passive radar jammers the passive supposedly being legal for about wont help you with laser however scott
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu try wd
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces petroleum naphtha available at most hardware stores will remove most adhesives frank reid ucs indiana edu
sci.electronics	does any one know what is the biggest rom for present please replay to yxy usl edu thanks a lot
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive what i usually use and this stuff is only good on glass is either acetone or a little benzene the latter of the two is a bit dangerous possibly a carcinogen sp but it usualy gets the job done i imagine you can you the two solvents on most metals as well as glass but keep the stuff away from plastic better yet you may just want to go to your local hardware store and ask them what they use
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet i use wd may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help try wd xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park ca
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in article apr auvax adelphi edu schmidt auvax adelphi edu writes platen etc flew across the room and several people in the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties of wd vapor we use it as starting fluid for jet ski s the fact that its a lubricant works very well since jet ski s are cycle it also helps when a ski floods with water because we clean the spark plus with the stuff ob sci electronics i have an office studio in my garage with a phone in it our wireless phone has a page feature where you can make the phone or hand set ring to get the attention of the other person is there a simple circuit that i can use over the second pair of wires or the first pair to emulate this effect with the phone in the garage ie push a button to make the phone ring in the house or push a button to make it ring in the garage thanks xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park ca
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player in article mcmahanc v mkj netcom com mcmahan netcom com dave mc mahan writes in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer typical in the old x oversampling units was a thirteen tap fir implemented as a dedicated hardware addition circuit at this kind of speed slow by digital standards such an adder is much less expensive than analog components of comparable precision i gleaned this information from a hardware manual for an old cd player design where one would find similar info for a particular cd the digital filter is an interesting component from my point of view i have no idea the digital filter is a kind of interpolation scheme read a book on numerical analysis to see just how broad the term interpolation is john whitmore
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu mr y writes i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing i assume however that most areas are still exclusively set to pulse dialing last time i checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common in germany bringin with it the flourishing of services in germany i just hope we ll all have isdn some time at an affordable price idle wishes does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one i know at least the british system is not it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work but my modem american has a special setting for british standards michael michael lemke astronomy ut austin texas michael io as utexas edu or utspan utadnx io michael span
sci.electronics	vga circuit i ve come across a circuit from integrated circuit systems inc called a gsp this chip genlocks a vga card to a dual input ntsc signal the output from this chip is basicly a pixel clock and has various speeds i notice that it outputs a mhz clock can this output be used on an amiga system and must it be ntsc vga or can it be ntsc ntsc any simple circuits to boost an ntsc to a vga signal need to genlock a laser disc to my khz video john flux inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	free eprom eraser pcb exposer twin cities collect this inelegant device started life as a watt security lamp until i smashed off the outer glass to liberate the nasty rays it works a treat weighs a heap due to the ballast and no i wont ship it cheers mike
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference if i remember rightly there is a pulsating set of tones piped thru the catv systems somewheres near the fm broadcast band and that the cable company trucks listen for this as they roam around town if you can hear it over the air and not cable
sci.electronics	help wanted pinouts of oki rtc can anybody send me pinouts of real time clock ic of oki semiconductors i wish to know if any rtc ic of oki has an inbuilt crystal rather than an external khz crystal thanks in advance nilesh parikh nilesh shakti ncst ernet in
sci.electronics	programming motorola xc hc p has anyone successfully programmed this beast using the bootloader pgm with the circuit described in the little green handbook pg dan adrian blockley i may say something profound environmental science here one day murdoch university western australia blockley essun murdoch edu au phone
sci.electronics	re silver solder in article aa dec a shiekh ictp trieste it andy shiekh writes i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal from management of electronics assembly ian oakes after talking about tin lead alloy and the eutectic point occasionally impurities may be added to solder to vary charactersitics within the soldering process in an attempt to improve performance for example addition of small quantities of antimony and copper can reduce the amount solder moves under stress when solid for particular applications additions of impurities may be warranted but in general it is best to keep the solder used in a soldering process as pure as possible i guess this is the good oil for commercial operations but it doesn t mention anything esoteric leon
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive from article apr csi jpl nasa gov by eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don t know methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover your wife s probably got some hangin around
sci.electronics	pc parallel i i o i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu to all sunrayce competitors i hope you re getting about as much sleep as i am
sci.electronics	help needed with light dependent resistor devices ldrs can some kind soul provide me with information on ldrs that contain an onboard light source in a totally integrated and light shielded unit i have seen a vtl c ldr in some schematics so who are the manufacturers of these devices and what are the different types thanks very much in advance jim jim trivellas department of electrical electronic engineering school of information technology electrical engineering the university of melbourne parkville victoria australia telephone email jimt mullian ee mu oz au hello is that the front desk allan holdsworth the spid
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days i sent a baud modem to a cousin in greece from the u s and it is working fine for him it also worked for me in u s jim james tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu work home he is after me jim is after him hop on pop dr seuss
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in lhe apr yang sics se lhe sics se lars henrik eriksson writes most if not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling i would not be suprised if the equipment is compatible in fact new york telephone nynex spend a lot of money on swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se you can guess what brand of equipment i refer to michael in this land said the god who seeks shall find who sits with folded hands or sleeps is blind sophocles
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home i wrote bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally however you can ask a ham over to listen if the interference occurs at a specific time each day then it would be possible to do such scheduling if nothing else you could invite the ham over to transmit from your driveway to see if he interferes if he does then you probably need to have your equipment worked on to make it immune to rf interference as a coupld of people have pointed out this is wrong it is not illegal to record or disclose what you heard on the ham bands bill
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home galen picea cfnr colostate edu galen watts writes why can t he record it legally it may not be admissable in court but recording for personal use is legal if he wants to play it for his ham friend that s legal too as long as he doesn t charge admission yeah i goofed a slip of the mind i must be getting senile deleted hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with busy posting on about other groups i get to this one about once every three months or so bill
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr ennews eas asu edu gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu glenn a sullivan writes i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan i would be interested in knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle of location or did the system simply respond to the presence of the transmitter in the sensors field of view
sci.electronics	re removing battery corrosion in article apr uvm edu me pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter j demko writes from article apr princeton edu by fuchs tsar princeton edu ira h fuchs is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time generally the corrosion is a signal that it s time to send them of to the recyclers but if you re that desperate or cheap try baking soda and a wire brush use gloves and goggles please sorry i meant the terminals in the device not on the batteries which are obviously quite dead
sci.electronics	wanted source for tuning capacitors hello there the other day i was feeling a tad nostalgic and thought about constructing an old time crytal radio set i figured on substituting a modern germanium diode for the crystal and winding the antenna coil etc myself the only problem i seem to have is in locating a source for a tuning capacitor you know the old meshed plate variable condensers which used to be the mainstay for tuning circuits well these things seem to be all but extinct in their original catalog habitats trimmer capacitors are relatively abundant but are not really suitable for this application so can anyone point me to a supplier of tuning capacitors in the pf range manythanks greg neill ounce ouns n the standard unit of hnsx supercomputers inc prevention equal to one pound of cure gneill cid aes doe ca
sci.electronics	filter design software for ibm pc has anyone got an active filter design program that runs on an ibm pc something that will easily let me specify bandpass filter parameters and it will give me the appropriate component values it has to be public domain if anyone has one could you mail it to me thanks in advance scott u wraith cs uow edu au p s it can run under windows if necessary
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx yes it is possible i m making a stepper controller board with digital inputs and up to digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port is bi directional or not is the bus tranceiver on it look for a chip numbered ls if you don t have this then it s probably a ls which will do you no good for reading in now if you do have the then do the following first find the address of the port decimal either or in pascal you would write port xxx where xxx is the address in either hex or decimal the status lines pins as well as the strobe pin are bi directional lines and are read by base address so for to read from status then read from you can also output to these lines in the same fashion as to the data lines in pascal do port xxx value hope this helps let me know if you need more help inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	fax machine scanners to mono computer scanners i was wondering since i ve got a few fax machine scanners intact if they could be integrated to the pc environment as a mono scanner if so where to start thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	phosphorescent pads a while ago i saw some translucent pads about x or so that could be plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting i was wondering if anyone would have a feed on anything of this nature and of the price oh the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about cm thick or so thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	wanting p s if anyone would have a low quantity distributer for these little beasts p by motorola please let me know baden de bari baden sys bison mb ca o o baden inqmind bison mb ca true life can only be experianced by those who do not fear death
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gvolk nyx cs du edu greg volk writes what i usually use and this stuff is only good on glass is either acetone or a little benzene the latter of the two is a bit dangerous possibly a carcinogen sp but it usualy gets the job done i imagine you can you the two solvents on most metals as well as glass but keep the stuff away from plastic benzene is most definitely a carcinogen if you can get your hands on it don t use it michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr uvm edu me pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter j demko writes from article apr csi jpl nasa gov by eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don t know methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover your wife s probably got some hangin around oh dear time for me to try to remember my chemistry let s see if i can find the formulae somewhere in the dim recesses of my mind sounds of gears fumes of overheated oil unmistakable stench of the nasal chromatograph ha i knew there was a double bond now how shall i show that in ascii mek acetone c c c c c c c o o the hydrogens are not shown and represents double bond mek has a methyl ch on one side and an ethyl c h on the other acetone has two methyls so acetone is not methyl ethyl ketone but instead is dimethyl ketone both solvents have similar properties i think that mek may be a little less flammable but a lot worse to breathe it s a lot harder to buy mek than it once was use acetone nail polish remover consists almost entirely of acetone if you buy some for your workshop get the very cheapest because the more expensive kind has oils and perfumes that you don t need nothing is so foolish that it has not been posted to some net newsgroup peter neilson neilson osf org quote changed daily if you ve seen this one before burn your calendar
sci.electronics	card phones can you help me to understand how a cardphone operates and how the values are stored on the phonecard thanx
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone bertil it can be shown that for any nutty theory beyond the fringe political view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the net the proof is left as an exercise for your kill file
sci.electronics	re references for any ic in a previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made you can find cross reference to almost any ic or discrete semiconductor in philips ecg semiconductors master replacement guide especially industrial commercial and entertainment but not specialised or military francois
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article c xu gwq news chalmers se d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone we re doing that one in s c british at the moment
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive on benzene and acetone not only is benzene a carcinogen it is adsorbed through the skin and cause cumulative damage to the bone marrow which is essential to the production of your blood cells it is highly toxic one exposure is unlikely to kill you but it will likely do hidden damage benzene is one compound that chemists try like hell to avoid using acetone is much less toxic but is highly flammable and volatile it also dissolves lots of things so handle with great care jonathan g harris department of chemical engineering mit rm ames street cambridge ma harris athena mit edu fax
sci.electronics	hd tv sound systems i would like to get some information on the current systems used for hd tv sound systems thanks
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive acetone will likely damage the carpet first solvent to try is denatured alcohol do not waste your time with rubbing alcohol you can use methyl alcohol instead of denatured alcohol if you want to have a cocktail while you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol if the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride if neither of these work you may need to try a stronger solvent but the alcohol works for most adhesives good luck jim
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone well bertil you might laugh but in many places here in austria there are no wall jacks yet either just wires sticking out of the wall and put into a closed often sealed box as far as i remember from germany it is a nicely mixed situation somebody had wires sticking somebody had jacks on the other hand everywhere in bohemia i have seen wall jacks and never seen just wires sticking out of the wall and i thought slovakia was the same case well how much do scandinavians know about the rest of europe tom tomas kovar alcatel austria forschungszentrum g m b h a wien ruthnergasse tel fax e mail tom kovar rcvie co at
sci.electronics	re silver solder shiekh ictp trieste it andy shiekh writes i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal this is called silver bearing solder it is used to solder to devices that have silvered contacts one application is soldering to the ceramic terminal strips used in the old tektronix scopes these were notched ceramic strips that were silver plated in the notches if you used ordinary solder the molten metal would disolve the silver off of the ceramic the silver was quite thin the is a saturated solution of silver in tin and lead thus no more silver can be disolved in the solder solution other devices that use silver contacts are quartz crystals and ultrasonic transducers peter reilley pvr wiis wang com ka lat for info on beav binary editor and viewer finger pvr das wang com well that about says it
sci.electronics	correction to harris s answerfax phone number h h a rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss h h a a r r r r i s hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr i ssss h h a a r r r r i s h h a a r r r r iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax is on line hours a day days a week so you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes by using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number to call is it is not set up to do international calls at this time the general decision tree for the answerfax is as follows the numbers are the available selections welcome to harris semiconductors answerfax select if you select for an are familiar with explanation of answerfax answerfax select to order select for a a document the list of catalogs document list is new products in the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog do you want to order do you want to order anything else if yes anything else if yes you will be taken back you will be taken back to the selection decision to the selection decision what is phone number for your fax what is your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life is but a candle and a dream will give it flame rush caress of steel
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone let s save some bandwidth skip the intermediate articles and go straight to the nazis and hitler we do have wall sockets thank you and they re better than yours segmented memory helps structure software
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article ra hrinn ni dolphin zoo cs yale edu stone andy cs yale edu andy stone writes subject re how to the disks copy protected i wrote a commercial program called game maker can you guess what it does what we do is have a document protect answer question on page x line y which is a real pain we also allow the user to register by sending in a card and computing a based on their name the system works in that we ve gotten lots of registration cards i hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called up my support one with a question the other wanting to buy our graphics libraries right anyway if anyone wants to help me catch a cracker and has the cracked version mail me i won t accuse you unless you re the cracker of course i know of at least one ftp site from which you can download the cracks of about any commercial game in existence the names of the companies yes companies are also blatantly advertised with the crack codes according to them it is not illegal at least in the usa according to a statute or something to remove the copy protection from any program the only condition is that you may only use this code on legally owned software for your own convenience if there is any interest i will download the advertisement of one such company i will not give the name of this ftp site to anyone even if only to protect the companies which wrote the original games disclaimer i do not condone the use or cracking of any programs i believe it hurts the industry and individuals in the long run on the subject of copy protection most pirates don t give a damn about using software on which the name of the registered owner came up on starting the program they just don t have a conscience gerrit
sci.electronics	re fm transmitter ics help in article apr vd seqeb gov au writes i am trying to design a small mw mhz fm transmitter for remote alarm use pretty high frequency for one chip is there an fm transmitter ic available that can be used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will be greatfully accepted please reply to bsc graham seqeb gov au yes and no i would use the fm transmitter chip from motorola linear and interface databook a stable cristal oscillator and a mixer e g sbl from mini circuits lab everything is done in the fm chip and then mixed up with the oscillator frequency just have a look at the arrl handbook there are lots of ideas in there about oscillators and mixing i don t think there are single chip designs for such high frequencies yet thanks in advance graham castledine cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	re solvent for duck tape adhesive if you want to try a non toxic solvent there s one made of citrus that works very well and doesn t take your skin off in the process one brand name i ve used is citra solve but there are others too
sci.electronics	looking for a good book on pspice i just got a copy of spice i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one i would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet yet another suggestion but this one is non toxic although i would handle it like any other cleaner and it smells nice the chemical is called d limonene and it smells like lemon peels i think it is a lemon extract of some kind you might find it in a hardware store sold as a general purpose solvent but your best bet would be any bike store it is used as a chain cleaning fluid it works on sticker glue crayons grease oil etc it s clear yellow in the bottle and you can use it straight if you add water it changes to a creamy consistency which is good for some jobs peter
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem is that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre q
sci.electronics	old schematics wonder if anyone would know where or if i could find the schematic for the old timex sinclare sp computer or even a pin out on the expansion bus thanks in advance ian nelson inelson ucf vm cc ucf edu
sci.electronics	disk drive read write i am working on a project and am in need of information regarding the currents at the head needed to write to a hard drive and the currents produced when reading if anyone has information it would be much appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction gee how about an ahem accelerometer such devices are available from a variety of sources one that comes to mind is bruel kjaer if you have a lot of money to spend most of these sorts of devices output a voltage proportional to acceleration you need to know what range you re talking about though dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell ma voice and fax
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article almaden ibm com jmichael vnet ibm com writes from jmichael vnet ibm com date tue apr edt subject re solvent for duct tape adhesive you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol if the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride if neither of these work you may need to do not heat the ccl it makes phosgene gas of ww i poison gas fame remember when they used carbon tet in fire extinguishers yes i know i was yelling wex
sci.electronics	hp cd manual the cd is one of three oscillators that hp made many years ago the others were the low frequency oscillator and the wide range oscillator these are the ones with the diameter chrome dial a wein bridge circuit that used pilot lights as the feedback loop and firebottles that produced many volts of output i ve just acquired a pair of these venerable old beasts the non working one sn owned by crosley radio at one point needs help i know i can likely buy a microfiche copy of the book from hp but that costs and considering i paid a dollar for the pair in the rain at the dayton hamvention does anyone have such a book they could copy parts of for me thank you
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in sci electronics swanee megadata mega oz au geoff swan writes rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder the may cover of qst has a picture of three different boards without any solder mask you can tell from the copper colored traces the box labeled transverter has the brown teflon glass board while the one in the center has the grayish board exposed on the left is some fiberglass board that looks green to me i see no reason for putting solder mask on circuit board used for box covers i wonder if any manufacturer actually puts a solder mask on their low noise microwave preamps often microwave circuits have odd bits of wire foil metal attached to wherever whatever is necessary to make the unit work properly this is a commercial product a solder mask would certainly make doing this tougher never mind the finding something that minimally degrades the circuits q dope for coils does not improve the q it just holds things together with minimal loss zack lau kh cp internet zlau arrl org working on ghz ssb cw gear operating interests ghz cw ssb fm us mail c o arrl lab cw main street station capability qrp mhz to ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor baudot phone if you really have to zack lau kh cp internet zlau arrl org working on ghz ssb cw gear operating interests ghz cw ssb fm us mail c o arrl lab cw main street station capability qrp mhz to ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor baudot phone if you really have to mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o from article apr nmt edu by erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu to all sunrayce competitors i hope you re getting about as much sleep as i am i m watching one being built right here at uvm and the team is shaggin it these days me pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o from article qekn b w w sys bison mb ca by baden sys bison mb ca baden de bari erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx yes it is possible i m making a stepper controller board with digital inputs and up to digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port is bi directional or not is the bus tranceiver on it look for a chip numbered ls if you don t have this then it s probably a ls which will do you no good for reading in now if you do have the then do the following first find the address of the port decimal either or in pascal you would write port xxx where xxx is the address in either hex or decimal the status lines pins as well as the strobe pin are bi directional lines and are read by base address so for to read from status then read from you can also output to these lines in the same fashion as to the data lines in pascal do port xxx value hope this helps let me know if you need more help inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown as it happens you ve helped me quite a bit i m considering building a very similar device just for something to do this summer the idea is to code the output bits into multiple bit current amplified output channels software will handle the way the amplified outputs are manipulated so that this magic box can handle more applications than just stepper motors also looking for a robot arm cheap to attach this box to so i can wow and impress my friends any hints peter j demko me pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	re phosphorescent pads baden sys bison mb ca baden de bari writes a while ago i saw some translucent pads about x or so that could be plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting i was wondering if anyone would have a feed on anything of this nature and of the price oh the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about cm thick or so the curiosities that you speak of are el electro luminescent pads they are mostly used as backlights for lcd s and as you pointed out comes in several different colors many of them emit white ish colors true white and blue whiteis blue are the ones that i ve personally encountered the most often they vary in their input requirements however they tend to operate at about vrms and at much higher than hz hz to khz if i recall correctly you can get them to work at vrms hz i e line but they don t glow as brightly and they will degrade much faster oh yes almost forgot el s have this tendency to wear out over time joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca dear ibm hire bunch of technically incompetent people like my brother to test os installation procedures
sci.electronics	pressure zone microphones i remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing up i read an article in some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from a practicle standpoint the author s said they built a prototype with nothing more than a small sony lavelier mike laid up against a large aluminum disk in demonstrating it at a presentation to audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them anyway i want to build some to use as choir mikes wide coverage i ve had good luck using some small electret mike elements i got from digi key most of these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for a buck or two more i got the ones spec d to go out to khz with a bit flatter response the distance of the mike opening from the flat plate is kind of critical i m debating whether to mount it on it s side which puts the opening a shade under mm from the plate or mounting it with the opening actually pointing down into the plate at a small clearance i haven t dissected a unit like you can buy at radio shack to see how they do it thoughts paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	spice for xt with no co processer i want to run spice on my xt so i can learn more about amplifiers and oscilators is there a version of this that will run on my xt with no math co processer if so where can i get it thanks for any and all help jeff jeff jones ab mb oppose the north american free trade agreement jeffj seeker mystic com canada usa free trade cost canada jobs infolinc bbs want to guess how many we ll lose to mexico
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx i know for sure that the everex magic i o ev a can be jumpered for a printer mode or for a general purpose bidirectional i o mode also i know for sure that the ibm technical reference says the following about the monochrome display printer adapter and the ibm parallel printer adapter it is essential that the external device not try to pull these lines referring to the data lines to ground and later if an external device should be driving data on these pins in violation of usage ground rules at the time of an input this data will be or ed with the latch contents i will accept no responsibility if you incur damages of any kind as a result of my saying i do not know for sure but i think you should be able to use a traditional parallel port as an input port by writing x to the data lines and then reading from the data lines while an external device drives them the input data will not be latched so noise could make this infeasible todd
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr mega com au swanee megadata mega oz au geoff swan writes in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax sorry geoff agree solder mask is green but in the old days we didn t have wave soldering machines which are another topic again i had a crew of a dozen ladies which could stuff and hand solder a board like lightning board under the mask was the original query btw cheap inport electronic devices mainly from rd world countries are done with brown pheonolic boards is seems the electronics industry has discovered the cheap labor pools workers are paid by the board to assemble circuits at home they are very obviously hand soldered quite a few tape recorders are being brought into canada from red china in china there is no warranty for the equipment other than if you plug it in and it works it s yours one of my co workers spent a year there and he said the failure rate out of the box was almost also the original method for making printed with conductive ink on a regular printing press an old lithographer friend had a press for this after the etching method was developed he used the press to print wood grain on doors tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	and now serious e magazine for some time i ve been thinking about the possiblity of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would be if all the articles would be in a standard format which would make it possible to print or view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript or rich text format but how do you start a new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university of technology delft holland
sci.electronics	re cleaning electronic equipment in article adrian tasman adrian tasman cc utas edu au adrian lewis writes just a quick question what standard lab solvents can be used to clean electronic equipment and components safely ie not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl you don t say what kind of electronic equipment you mean it s hard to give a generic answer there is essentially no solvent that won t do things like washing lubricant out of switches when we ve needed to do an emergency cleaning job on things we ve just used distilled water the key thing to remember is to make sure the gear is completely dry before powering it up again we let it dry for several days to be damn sure i doubt that methanol has significant advantages over water i would be very wary of ccl not least because it is dangerous to you even if it s not going to harm the equipment not only is it poisonous but i believe it s now known to be carcinogenic svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem is that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre q setra systems nagog park acton ma ph schaevitz engineering us rt union ave pennsauken nj ph accelerometers are not cheap mainly because the outputs are fairly linear with respect to acceleration you don t say what the range of acceleration you want to measure is and there are other ways in which to measure it other than using an accelerometer additional information would be helpful to anyone who may respond call if you wish
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green ulan ee ualberta ca dale ulan writes kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet it s possible to make boards in other colors and i have an ad for laser light show equipment which offers the circuit boards in your choice of day glo tm colors the usual light green color is just the natural color of fiberglas the dark green or blue is the solder mask layer and i suspect that color is a dye john nagle
sci.electronics	re pressure zone microphones in article rjobdinnk s crcnis unl edu mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes i remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing up i read an article in some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from a practicle standpoint the author s said they built a prototype with nothing more than a small sony lavelier mike laid up against a large aluminum disk in demonstrating it at a presentation to audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them yup it s not all that difficult to do anyway i want to build some to use as choir mikes wide coverage i ve had good luck using some small electret mike elements i got from digi key most of these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for a buck or two more i got the ones spec d to go out to khz with a bit flatter response the panasonic cartridges aren t bad but they aren t spectacular the distance of the mike opening from the flat plate is kind of critical i m debating whether to mount it on it s side which puts the opening a shade under mm from the plate or mounting it with the opening actually pointing down into the plate at a small clearance i haven t dissected a unit like you can buy at radio shack to see how they do it thoughts don t mount it on the side call up crown the company that has the patent on the pzm and ask them for information on construction and use of the things you may have to determine the correct spacing emperically with a noise source and a spectrum analyzer because the design of the panasonic cartridges uses a tuned cavity in front of the electret element to increase the high frequency response and you are going to be altering the resistance through the cavity entrance crown has a nice book on the subject though it s unfortunately rather short on mathematics there s a jaes article from many years back too still for your application you ll be a lot better off buying the cheap radio shack models and using phil rastoczny s modifications to get a clean balanced output phil s mods seem to get reposted here on a regular basis scott
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial in article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes in article apr wcsub ctstateu edu ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes regarding pointing an antenna at a leaky catv cable wow what a concept does anybody want to speculate on how this non connection would fit into the theft of cable services laws it seems to me that unless this case is specifically written into the legislation that the cable company would not have a leg to stand upon in court well the catv company in the us is accountable to the fcc for how much transmission their cables make in fact i ve heard first hand about how the catv company asked to inspect the wiring in a home business to find the source of rf leaks i ve heard many of their vans have rf detectors and they keep one eye on them as they drive down the street if the cable is leaky enough to have usable signal i would guess that they re probably in violation of fcc transmission laws in england they do did require permits to operate a tv supposedly the tv police drove around with rf detectors looking for the if or whatever produced by a receiver that wasn t registered i m guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing i don t know if the tv police were are just urban legend or an actuality the tv police are still with us i m afraid a pound fine goes out to the unlicensed users if caught
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial in article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes in england they do did require permits to operate a tv supposedly the tv police drove around with rf detectors looking for the if or whatever produced by a receiver that wasn t registered i m guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing i don t know if the tv police were are just urban legend or an actuality they are real and we still pay licence fees to receive tv the detector vans pick up the if true this tells them what channel you are watching the can also pick up the line time base freq and frame rate try it with a lw mw radio near telly it picks up a sharp hum from this they can even watch poor quality though what you have on the screen by picking up re radiating junk michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re microcontroller questions for newcomer does anyone have recommendations on whether a smart data i o print spooler digital sampling etc would be better implemented with a dma chip or a dedicated microcontroller essentially what i am trying to decide is the best way to handle moving data from a port with automatic handshaking from or to a memory area that will be accessible by a main system processor when not in use by the smart data i o which dma or microcontroller chip would be best to use fast cheap and easy to obtain would be nice but i won t limit my choices to only those that fit those characteristics even an under would do what i want but i am sure there is a better alternative like a microcontroller with onchip e eprom so i essentially want to hear about all dma and microcontrollers that are simple to interface and will move data from one place to another while monitoring a few i o lines jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	re and now serious e magazine ferry toth writes for some time i ve been thinking about the possiblity of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would be if all the articles would be in a standard format which would make it possible to print or view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript or rich text format but how do you start a new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university of technology delft holland yep sounds good to me suggestion sci electronics art best regards wouter
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rjq hinn je dns nmsu edu rpeter nmsu edu peter herman x writes in lhe apr yang sics se lhe sics se lars henrik eriksson writes i would not be suprised if the equipment is compatible in fact new york telephone nynex spend a lot of money on swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se you can guess what brand of equipment i refer to lars henrik will be pleased to know that his name is plastered all over phones at new mexico state university as well they got the contract when nmsu went to a digital phone system snip not quite correct the company name is ericsson with a c steve l
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lighter fluid is butane it s absolutely non toxic but is an extreme fire hazard you definately don t want to go splashing this stuff around use a little on an old rag butane a colourless flammable gaseous alkane non toxic it has some effects when you inhale allegedly which can t all be down to asphyxia imho steve l
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike i am not sure about this but i believe that analog devices in norwood ma makes a relatively inexpensive acceleration sensor primarily for use in auto air bag systems i do not know specs or anything else but you might give them a call to find out more info z syed zaeem hosain p o box z consulting group san jose ca szh zcon com
sci.electronics	re cad program for electronics in article r vqinnftu zephyr grace cri nz srgxnbs grace cri nz writes what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use it with printgl for high quality output bruce look for spice or pspice
sci.electronics	re looking for a good book on pspice in article c egz bg acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes i just got a copy of spice i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one i would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler isbn
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan i would be interested in knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle of location or did the system simply respond to the presence of the transmitter in the sensors field of view phototransistor x x ne with kohm limiter feedback to base to control operating point i expect this really hurts noise figure any comments from phototransistor experts we intended to use this atop a stepper motor to provide headings to the beacons the plan was to have or beacons of different frequencies in each room and tell the what frequency to phase lock to we did not do so one challenge was that the available stepper had degree steps knowing the headings to each beacon we would have used the surveyor technique of resection to determine robot location no i ain t going to explain resection over the net given hindsight i would digitize the amplified output of the self nulling phototransistor circuit and correlate in phase quadrature square waves at the several expected frequencies to extract amplitude of each beacon by doing this at the numerous steps even with degree steps with knowledge of the angular response of the phototransistor you should be able to rather more accurately determine the heading to each beacon allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal as the phone uses dtmf dialing which by some magic all telecom operators seems to have agreed on this is a complete non issue i don t think there are any switches in sweden that can t handle dtmf dialing most switches are now digital and thoses that aren t have been retrofitted with magic fingers that converts from dtmf to pulse dialing thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu mr y writes i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use yes it does all the equipment has to have that telekom approval number to be legal what has changed is that you can buy the equipment somewhere else i m pretty sure the same holds true in sweden at least when i read some information on it about tweo years ago and btw i do know that most of the lines in sweden can handle tone dialing just don t be sure that all can wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
sci.electronics	re ultrasonic pest repellers stories advice bunk etc in article babb larc sdsu edu babb sciences sdsu edu j babb writes re ultrasonic pest repelling devices the ones i ve seen use piezoelectric transducers driven by a khz swept oscillator is there evidence that insects are actually repelled by these devices can anybody cite gov t pubs or independent lab studies i saw another device that supposedly repels pests by altering the electro magnetic field of your house wiring i suppose they capacitively couple a hi freq signal to the ac wiring and this is supposed to repel pests how by magnestriction of the wiring i dont think so i ve been wondering about this myself the house wiring thing is really hokey there is no doubt that high pressure ultrasound is annoying but to whom given that these devices have been advertised to be effective against everything from insects to rodents to nasty dogs what is to say that my insect repeller won t just annnoy my dog and give me headaches could there be that much selectivity in frequencies have there been any studies on the effects of various pressure levels bands and sweep patterns on various life forms and how effective could they be i certainly would not want to tell anyone that they are safe from nasty dogs because they were carrying a piezoelectric buzzer jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc kurt a geisel snail quaker rd white pine software inc nashua nh arpa kurtg drycas club cc cmu edu bix kgeisel genie k geisel air n jtw i will not be pushed filed indexed stamped briefed debriefed or numbered the prisoner
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive another alternative is to cover the adhesive with another piece of duct tape then remove the tape if it still doesn t work try wd bqn in article c stk fok athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca dave stephenson writes mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper etc if you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses or better still industrial goggles the small est drop in the eye will casue etc please watch those attributions it was not me that advocated using mek michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re passive mixer shaffer wendy yale edu wendy shaffer writes i m trying to build a mixer for a friend of mine to run several things into a single boom box i have a circuit that uses an op amp powered by either a couple of v batteries or using some kind of power supply but in a catalog i was looking at recently a passive mixer for guitar was advertised taht doesn t appear to use any power at all does anyone know what the circuit for this would be because then i could just adapt it for rca jacks and save my friend and i alot of messing with batteries and plugs thanks well the fastest crudest mixer aside from just physically connecting all your inputs together directly is to run each signal through a resistor to a common output the resistors give some isolation so the signal sources aren t driving directly into each other taking a wild seat of the pants guess i d say that if you are mixing high impedance sources like some dynamic mikes electric guitar pickups etc your resistors ought to be maybe k k or so if you are mixing line level stuff or the outputs of a walkman or such i d go with k input output input input paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lots of stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic i am glad you do not dispute this point if you don t want the lead storage battery to discharge it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state during winter the ground be it covered with concrete dirt or wood maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete dirt or wood so it heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere in between e g the basement air temperature may be f the floor temperature f and the battery temperature f the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature and heat is going to move to it the floor is an incredible heat sink might depend on where you live i know locally for most of the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete is definitely warmer especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer by several hours than the days rest of quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell
sci.electronics	re microcontroller questions for newcomer acooney netcom com alan cooney writes discussion of motorola vs intel uc s in other words just add your favorite serial level converters mac folks can use the cheaper farther and faster rs drivers pc users get to suffer with rs and start using your project think about it how much software is out there for the mac i ve been interested in using microcontrollers in imbedded applications for a long time but was always under the impression that i would need an ibm to run the debug compile etc software i would like to use a or i m proficient in assembly but have never needed it except some toying with old evbs motorola doesn t seem to have any information on mac software at least their local distributor doesn t and the ele department around here has been of little help as well i hope someone can tell me that i don t have to buy an ibm to work with the or evaluation boards please send me mail andrew andrew reynhout cs uri edu if you remind me of my dog we ll probably get along jane siberry meow
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr chpc utexas edu michael chpc utexas edu writes does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one i know at least the british system is not it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work but my modem american has a special setting for british standards bzzzzzt wrong answer the uk tone dialling is identical to the us system the different settings on your modem are so that it uses ccitt v v tones for data transmission rather than bell bell tones which are used only in the usa and canada afaik as most people now use at least v bis this is largely irrelevant tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c i was a bit surprised that the manual for my fluke multimeter suggests applying wd to the test lead sockets especially the current range socket the intention is to prevent the test lead is in the wrong scocket beeper from going off when there is no test lead in that socket the manual is a bit vague but i think i d apply the wd to a swab then wipe the socket instead of spaying the stuff directly from the can speaking of said meters i compared the against the a that i ve had on my bench for almost years it has been five years since the a has been calibrated on the dc scale they agree within mv ac scale is within about mv the would be just about the perfect portable meter if it had the db scale i didn t feel it was worth the extra for a second since i don t use db all that much in my work bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re using generated power on large sound systems in article rk ekv slack sim es com pashdown slack sim es com pete ashdown writes i ve bothered the rental shops and audio shops about the problem but most of them have precious little experience in dealing with generated power my suspicion is that i don t really need anything larger than kw and this could all be resolved with a transformer of some sort nope your problem is either being caused by excessive voltage drop in the long cable from the generator or just plain not having enough power i would suspect that those amps are going to draw a lot of current on short peaks you can try using larger and shorter cables to the generator or try strapping the amps for v service and running v mains cables out which will minimize the line drop if these don t work though you re going to need a bigger generator i assume that you re using well maintained generators and have watched the voltage output on the generator properly if you don t have v coming out of the unloaded generator you ll never get v at the other end can anyone offer any advice i want to do a lot of outdoor events this summer and it would be nice if this power problem could be resolved easily i ve been looking into buying a power pack so i could tap into junction boxes directly but have no idea where to start one that would resolve my generator problems as well would be of high value to me i recommend you talk with an electrician who has experience in this sort of work and not with the pro audio people also i recommend that you don t try to tap into junction boxes at all but hire a licensed electrician if you don t really know what you are doing i ve had to clean up after two people who nearly killed themselves playing in hot a boxes and it wasn t much fun scott
sci.electronics	re accelerometer request re specified in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes basically i am looking for something to operate in the ranges of accelerations found in an automobile environment i would like the device to operate as a trigger for other systems when the car s deceleration reaches a threshold value which is how i assume some seat belt lock mechanisms and air bag deployment systems work open up one of the airbag control boxes they have inexpensive piezoelectric accelerometers in them i know that the gm cars use the setra units the cheapest way to get such an accelerometer is to cannibalize an existing automotive unit incidentally these things aren t very linear but for the application they would do a fine job scott
sci.electronics	phantoms in my sony strvx receiver while i have gotten years out of this digital receiver it has been acting verry strange of late i hope that the following symptoms may help someone diagnose the error i know that whatever lithium memory backup it had has long died thus if i unplug it it won t remember the presets it has given up listening to the remote i tried changing the remote s batteries when i try a remote function the receiver registers that it received it a green remote light flashes but the right function doesn t happen if any function at all also strange when i hit the mute button for example the display panel goes black yikes i ve never seen that before before all the strangeness started the system turned itself off and on again by itself sometimes it won t play a radio station so i have to kinda twist it yes kinda flex the motherboard chasis for it to get the radio tuning back the aux in function always works however it is inconvenient but not inconvenient enough to pay an expensive repair fee while i m not a hardware guy i wonder if something as simple as a surge supressor will be a quick fix the strange thing is that these symptoms come and go someone told me this unit series has a bad voltage amp chip anyway arghh cjk
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi if you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses or better still industrial goggles the small est drop in the eye will casue blindness by a catalysis reaction that is non cureavble once it starts the results are similar to mustard gas contamination note mek peroxide is a hardner form fibreglass resins dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive mahy comments deleted rong wrong butane is used in a butane lighter zippo s use petroleum naptha and perfume btw if you wanna find some benzene take a look at aerosol spray gumout carberetor cleaner that stuff will take of the adhesive and the paint and melt plastic and this doesn t melt plastic at least it hasn t melted the plastic bottle that i bought it in yet maybe i d better go check that bottle its been sittin awhile
sci.electronics	re and now serious e magazine in article apr donau et tudelft nl ferry dutentb et tudelft nl ferry toth writes subject and now serious e magazine summary how about starting a group where scientific articles can be pre publish keywords scientific papers electronic magazine for some time i ve been thinking about the possibility of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free distribution fast acceptance online discussion between authors and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion i think its a great but idealistic idea a reseacher will first of all try to publish a worthy paper in a credible professional magazine and not in a community like usenet which is infamous for lots not all of junk information the papers that will be published here will in general be of low quality also it is improbable that any credit will be given to a researcher who publish here and sadly that is nowadays a main reason for publishing usenet is great for informal discussions and free exchange of ideas keep it like that a new specialist group is just not worth it gerrit
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green fiberglass boards are available in several colors sitting right here i have unetched board stock that is white blue green and yellow respectively i ve also seen black boards solder mask is available in a variety of colors too depending on the supplier the color helps indentify the material don t forget conformal coating i don t think i ve seen phenolic impregnated paper boards in anything other than the familar brown but it would not be difficult to add a dye to change the color bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re how to make the disks copy protected continued in article sehari du cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes from sehari iastate edu babak sehari subject how to make the disks copy protected continued date wed apr gmt the discussion under the old topic went in the wrong direction some people instead of discussing the issue itself they decided to discuss the non technical part of the issue so here i go with my limited knowledge about this issue hoping you guys cut the crap and talk about the real technical ways to do this the methods that i am aware that are effective are laser hole burning this would leave the disk damaged so if you format that particular sector of the disk you can not write to it it is very laser holes are or were used to prevent someone from making exact copies of a disk you do not want to write to the damaged disk only read and use the programs hard for crackers to damage the disk exactly the same way i remember a program called copywrite that could copy a disk with a laser hole in it i think it simulates the laser hole after copying the disk the program is if necessary used in conjunction with a program called nokey or something the program tells you which program to use no solution gerrit
sci.electronics	re info on flux gate coils magnetometer in article bbuck endor bbuck endor sim es com bryce buck writes subject info on flux gate coils magnetometer keywords flux gate magnetometer i am interested in finding sources and design information on flux gate coils or flux gate magnetometers digital compass please respond via e mail sorry my news reader doesn t want to reply ling s c fluxgate magetometer for space application ieee journal spacecraft vol no march april pp oldish but usable background information fluxgate magnetometry electronics world wireless world september pp great circuit diagrams etc for building an electronuc compass gerrit
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article c h luy cbfsb cb att com rdell cbnewsf cb att com richard b dell writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lots of stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic i am glad you do not dispute this point if you don t want the lead storage battery to discharge it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state during winter the ground be it covered with concrete dirt or wood maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete dirt or wood so it heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere in between e g the basement air temperature may be f the floor temperature f and the battery temperature f the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature and heat is going to move to it the floor is an incredible heat sink might depend on where you live i know locally for most of the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete is definitely warmer especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer by several hours than the days rest of quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell sorry about following up my own article but i wanted to continue that what might be being missed here is that the important thing might not be temperature differences per se but the action of heat sinking the battery perhap someone could conduct an experiment taking two identical lead acid batteries placing both on wooden shelves but putting one of them in a water bath designed to act as a heat sink this would eliminate the concrete floor effect and keep both batteries at the same ambient temperature i think the argument over temperatures is not pertinent but the one over heat conductance and removing the exothermic heat may have some validity richard dell
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article r j g hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people david rind i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion i ll give you some examples prescribing controlled substances to patients with no demonstrated need other than a drug addition for the medication prescribing thyroid preps for patients with normal thyroid function for the purpose of quick weight loss using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci these are errors of commission that competently trained physicians should not committ but sometimes do there are also errors of omission some of which result in malpractice suits i don t think that using anti fungal agents to try to relieve discomfort in a patient who you suspect may be having a problem with candida or another fungal growth is an error of commission or omission healers have had a long history of trying to relieve human suffering some have stuck to standard approved procedures others have been willing to try any reasonable treatment if there is a chance that it will help the patient the key has to be tied to the healer s oath i will do no harm but you know david that very few treatments involve no risk to the patient the job of the physician is a very difficult one when risk versus benefit has to be weighed each physician deals with this risk benefit paradox a little differently some are very conservative while others are more agressive an agressive approach may be more costly to the patient and carry more risk but as long as the motive is improving the patient s health and not an attempt to rake in lots of money through some of the schemes that have been uncovered in the medicare fraud cases i don t see the need to label these healers as quacks or even unethical what do i reserve the term quack for pseudo medical professionals these people lurk on the fringes of the health care system waiting for the frustrated patient to fall into their lair some of these individuals are really doing a pretty good job of providing alternative medicine but many lack any formal training and are in the business simply to make a few fast bucks while a patient can be reasonably assured of getting competent care when a liscenced physician is consulted this alternative care area is really a buyer s beware arena if you are lucky you may find someone who can help you if you are unlucky you can loose a lot of money and develop severe disease because of the inability of these pseudo medical professional to diagnose disease which is the fortay of the liscened physicians i hope that this clears things up david marty b
sci.med	help reflux esophagitis i am writing this to find out the following any information on surgery to prevent reflux esophagitis the name s of a doctor s who specialize in such surgery information on reflux esophagitis which leads to cancer my boyfriend age and otherwise in good health was diagnosed with reflux esophagitis and a hiatal hernia about years ago at that time he saw a gastroenterologist and has tried acid controllers mylanta tagamet as well as a restricted diet and raising the head of his bed these treatments were not effective and because the damage was worsening he opted for a surgical repair months ago he was told there were two repair techniques that could fix the problem a nissen wrap and a hill repair he opted for the hill repair he recovered very well from the surgery itself but the pain he had originally is worse and in addition he now has trouble swallowing including saliva the doctor now wants to do an endoscopy and has also informed him that a biopsy might be necessary if he has a pre cancerous condition which he called barrett s syndrome if he can t avoid having reflux will he necessarily get cancer basically if anyone has any information on what he should do now i d appreciate it thanks pat lydon netmanage inc pat netmanage com
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes in article apr midway uchicago edu bmdelane quads uchicago edu brian manning delaney wrote one thing that i haven t seen in this thread is a discussion of the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile of ingested fatty acids fas even write a letter to the editor it is a good point by the way the abbreviation epa is not in general use so i do not know what fatty acid you are speaking about sorry i mean eicosapentaenoic acid and to brian an u of c there is a physician named stephen hanauer there who is a recognized expert in the treatment of ibd you might give him a call coincidentaly just yesterday i was finally referred from the clinic to hanauer i m seeing him on may i ll report what he says about this question the treatment of ibd if you call please say hello to him from me i was looking at u of c for a position and perhaps still am will do brian delaney
sci.med	re cholistasis sp fat free diet pregnancy heart access digex com g writes hi i ve just returned from a visit with my ob gyn and i have a few concerns that maybe y all can help me with i ve been seeing her every weeks for the past few months i m at week and during the last visits i ve gained to pounds every weeks she said this was unacceptable over any week period as it stands i ve thus far gained pounds also she says that though i m at weeks the baby s size is weeks i think she mentioned inches for the top of the fundus when i was weeks the baby s size was weeks i must also add that i had an operation a few years ago for endometriosis and i ve had no problems with endometriosis but apparently it is causing me pain in my pelvic region during the pregnancy and i have a very difficult time moving and the doc has recommended i not walk or move unless i have to i have a little handicapped sticker for when i do need to go out anyway that s of the situation the other is that almost from the beginning of pregnancy i was getting sick throwing up about times a day and mostly it was bile that was being eliminated i told her about this i know this because i wasn t eating very much due to the nausea and could see the results well now i only get sick about once every weeks and it is still bile related but in addition i had begun to feel movement near my upper right abdomen just below the right breast usually when i was lying on my right side it began to get worse though because it started to hurt when i lay on my right side and then it hurt no matter what position i was in next i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone and the pain in the area got worse however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to cut the fat it wasn t as much of a problem so the doctor says i have cholistatis and that i should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own but i m still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants me to be on a non fat diet this means no meat except fish and chicken w o skin i do this anyway no nuts fried food cheese etc i am allowed skim milk she said i should avoid anything sweet e g bananas also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day potatoes pasta rice she said i can t even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed i m concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process and if i m not taking in fat is she expecting the baby will take it from my stores and why this restriction on carbohydrates if she s concerned about fat i m not clear how much of her recommendation is based on my weight gain and how much on cholistatis which i can t seem to find any information on she originally said that i should only gain pounds during the entire pregnancy since i was about lbs overweight when i started but my sister gained lbs during her pregnancy and she s taken it all off and hasn t had any problems she also asked if any members of my family were obese which none of them are anyway i think she is overly concerned about weight gain and feel like i m being punished by a severe diet she did want to see me again in one week so i think she the diet may be temporary for that one week what i want to know is how reasonable is this non fat diet i would understand if she had said low fat diet since i m trying that anyway even if she said really low fat diet i think she assumes i must be eating a high fat diet but really it is that because of the endometriosis and the operation i m not able to use the energy from the food i do eat any opinions info and experiences will be appreciated i m truly going stark raving mad trying to meet this new strict diet because fruits and vegetables go through my system in a few minutes and i ll end up having to eat constantly thus far i don t find any foods satisfying thanks g for one week she probably wants to see how you react to the diet if it changes anything you can live on the diet but you need to up your calories where before you had a pat of butter now you need a medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more of them not terrific amounts of meat it s hard to digest anyway for comfort and to make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta or rice which give their calories up slowly rather than bread or corn maybe smaller meals as you may be getting less room in the stomach area is the baby still coming up is it starting to push or rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn t be wearing any clothing that compresses your middle be sure not to suck in your stomach when sitting again it will put pressure on the digestive tract try laying on your sides back and stay in reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier on your legs circulation as well you might try letting the baby turn or at least not be forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted it s easy for that baby to end up right under the diaphram especially if you have tight abdominal muscles if i had my second one to do over again i think i d have tried to loosen up since he didn t turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have a thing about weight gain in pregnancy or maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially if she s young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might be coming up is something to be avoided if possible nausea etc can vary from person to person and with each pregnancy my first pregnancy was miserable during the second i had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had a statistically better chance of carrying their baby grain of salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people david rind sure there are quacks there are quacks who don t treat and quacks who treat one s that refuse to diagnose and ones that diagnose improperly there are lucky quacks and unlucky quacks smart quacks and dumb ones there are people ahead of their time with unprobable or unproven theories and rationals there are ill reasoned absurd theorists sometimes it s hard to tell who s who reading a book of ancient jokes it seems that doctors called other doctors quacks in babylon arguments abound when there aren t any firm answers plenty of illnesses aren t or can t be diagnosed or treated but i think it s better to argue against the theory as was originally done with postings on candida a month or so ago stating the facts usually works better than simply asserting an opinion about someone s competency and you can t convince everybody sometimes a correct diagnosis takes years for people they don t run into a doctor who recognizes the disease they haven t developed something recognizable yet or they have something that no one is going to recognize because it hasn t been described yet sometimes they get a cure sometimes the illness wears out sometimes they stumble on an improper diagnosis with the right treatment sometimes they find it s incurable there is no profit in a patient accepting a hopeless attitude about an illness unless it s a rock solid diagnosis of terminal disease it s is more like ly that a person will find a cure if they keep looking jackie
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article noringc yl i qo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so i would say there are also significant numbers of unscrupulous doctors of the squeaky clean traditional crew cut talk to the ama before starting any treatment kind umm weren t you the one objecting to someone who is a licensed physician being called a quack or is it just that being a licensed physician is a good defense against charges of quackery when the physician agrees with your system of beliefs lately i ve seen the word quack bandied about recklessly actually i almost never use the term quack when i discuss systemic yeast syndrome however i always point out that mainstream medicine views this as a quack diagnosis and i agree with that characterization let me put it another way to make my point clear quack is a nebulous word lacking in any precision really i bet virtually everyone reading these posts understands what steve dyer gordon banks and i am implying when we have talked about systemic yeast syndrome as a quack diagnosis would you prefer the word charlatan i don t happen to think that all quacks are charlatans since i suspect that some believe in the diseases they are diagnosing p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why is there some reason why you feel that it shouldn t be pointed out in sci med that there is no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound dougb comm mot com doug bank writes my wife s ob gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office when on her next visit my wife asked another doctor in the office if they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist read the pictures the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not my wife is concerned about this she saw a tv show a couple months back something like or dateline nbc etc where an expert on fetal ultrasounds a radiologist was showing all the different deffects that could be detected using the ultrasound should my wife be concerned should we take the pictures to a radiologist for a second opinion and if so where would we find such an expert in chicago we don t really have any special medical reason to be concerned but if a radiologist will be able to see things the ob gyn can t then i don t see why we shouldn t use one any thoughts as far as i can see if your obstetrition has an ultrasound in his rooms and is expirienced its use and interpretation he should be just as capable of reading it as any radiologist all doctors are qualified to read x rays u s ct scans etc it is just that a radiologist does nothing else and thus is only better at reading them because of all this time spent doing this skill in reading x rays etc just comes from plenty of practice if your obstetrition reads heaps of obstetric ultrasounds he should be able to pick up any abnormalities that can be demonstrated by this technique paul zikzak public access unix melbourne australia o o
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rag cb hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article noringc yl i qo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why is there some reason why you feel that it shouldn t be pointed out in sci med that there is no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome i don t know the first thing about yeast infections but i am a scientist no scientist would take your statement no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome to tell you anything except an absence of data on the question noring has pointed out the catch that if the crazy theory were true you probably couldn t find any direct evidence of it that you couldn t observe those yeastie beasties with present methods even if they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set of anecdotal evidence in favor based on their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many of them appear to get better so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other in which case please there is no point in yelling back and forth at each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive or negative and i understand that your abject disbelief is based on the existence of people who may get famous or make money applying the diagnosis to everything in sight making wild claims with no evidence and always refusing to do controlled studies but that has absolutely no bearing on the apparently sincere experiences of the people on the net observing anti fungals working on themselves and other people in certain specific cases there are also quacks who sell oral superoxide dismutase in spite of the fact that it s completely broken down in the guts but this doesn t change the genuine scientific knowledge about the role of superoxide dismutase in fighting oxidative damage same thing just cause there are candida quacks that doesn t establish evidence against the candida hypothesis if there s some other reason besides the quacks if only anecdotal to think it could be true then that is what has to be considered that is what the net people have been talking about but again there is no point in arguing about it there is anecdotal evidence and there is no convincing evidence and there are also some candida quacks out there i hope everyone can agree on all of that thus it appears to me the main question now is whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence in a convincing and documented enough manner to make a good case for carrying out a good controlled double blind study of antifungals or else forget convincing anybody else to carry out the test just carry it out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population or symptoms on which such a study should be carried out to provide a fair test of the hypothesis ken
sci.med	re eye dominance bbenowit telesciences com barry d benowitz writes in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this thanks yes there is such a thing as eye dominance although i am not sure if this dominance refers to perscription strength as i recall if you selectively close your dominant eye you will percieve that the image shifts this will not happen if you close your other eye i believe that which eye is dominant is related to handedness but i can t recall the relation at the moment barry d benowitz i read a great book about eye dominance several years ago so there is one book out there at least one there were several types of eye dominance where a person looks in their memory usually indicates a type of eye dominanc another type is related to coordination activities like hitting a ball another for reading i didn t read one that discussed prescription strength although people with bad vision near or far sighted would tend to depend on the stronger eye jackie
sci.med	sweet s syndrome my brother s affine has recently been diagnosed with sweet s syndrome also called steroid resistant sweet s syndrome this syndrome started after she had had iodine treatment for hyperthyroidism she d been reluctant to have treatment for the hyperthyroidism for many years and apparently started to show exaustion from it i understand that she may still be testing high in thyroid level but she s isn t being treated by an endocrinologist her previous endocrinologist bowed out when she entered the hospital she entered the hospital because of the sweet s syndrome symptoms skin lesions i ve looked through the last two years of medline and didn t find an abstract mentioning a correlation between thyroid and sweets i checked a handbook which said that sweet s was associated with leukemia i d like a reccomndation for experts who are in new york city or who travel to new york city for the sweets and perhaps for the endocrinology any information that might help apparently there hasn t been much improvement in her condition over the past several months jackie
sci.med	from srebrenica doctoring in hell srebrenica s doctor recounts town s living hell by laura pitter tuzla bosnia reuter neret mujanovic was a pathologist when he trekked through the mountains to the besieged muslim town of srebrenica last august but after treating mangled victims of bosnia s bloody war he considers himself a surgeon now i m a surgeon with great experience although i have no license to practice but if i operate on a person and he lives normally that s the greatest license a surgeon could have evacuated by the u n this week to his home town of tuzla the muslim physician gave an eyewitness medical assessment of the horrors of the year long serb siege of srebrenica and the suffering of the thousands trapped there i lived through hell together with the people of srebrenica all those who lived through this are the greatest heroes that humanity can produce he told reporters mujanovic had practiced for two months as an assistant at a local hospital in tuzla but before going to srebrenica he had never performed a surgical operation on his own now he says he has performed major surgery times relying on books for guidance amputating arms and legs times usually without anesthetic delivering babies and performing four cesarean sections he worked to hour days slept in the hospital for the first weeks after his arrival last aug and treated patients he arrived after making the trek over mountains on foot from tuzla miles northwest of srebrenica about other people carried in supplies and soldiers guided and protected him through guerrilla terrain he said his worst memory was of days ago when seven serb shells landed within one minute in an area half the size of a football field killing people immediately and wounding half of the dead were women and children the people had come out for a rare day of sunshine and the children were playing soccer there was no warning the blood flowed like a river in the street he said there were pieces of women all around and you could not piece them together one woman holding her two children in her hands was lying with them on the ground dead they had no heads before mujanovic arrived with his supplies conditions were deplorable he said many deaths could have been prevented had the hospital had surgical tools facilities and medicine the six general practitioners who had been operating before he arrived had even less surgical experience than he did they didn t know the basic principles for amputating limbs once he arrived the situation improved he said but by mid september he had run out of supplies bandages were washed and boiled five times sometimes they were falling apart in my hands he said doctors had no anesthetic and could not give patients alcohol to numb the pain because it increased bleeding people were completely conscious during amputations and stomach operations he said blood transfusions were impossible because they had no facilities to test blood types i felt destroyed psychologically mujanovic said the situation improved after dec when a convoy arrived from the belgian medical group medecins sans frontieres but mujanovic said the military predicament worsened in mid december after bosnian serbs began a major offensive in the region every day we had air strikes and shellings then the hunger set in between mid december and mid march when u s planes began air dropping food between and people were dying every day from complications associated with malnutrition he said i know for sure that the air drop operation saved the people from massive death by hunger and starvation he said according to mujanovic around people died in srebrenica of them children during a year of siege mujanovic plans to return to srebrenica in three weeks after visiting his wife who is ill in tuzla they say i m a hero he said there were thousands of people standing at the sides of the road crying and waving when i left and i cried too sharon machlis gartenberg framingham ma usa e mail sharon world std com
sci.med	re great post was candida bloom in article noringc ygw f m netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes of course they are working on the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated mild inflammatory response can and does occur in a large number of people if you reject this yeast hypothesis then i d guess you d view this research as one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor stay tuned i do not have enough medical expertise to have much of an opinion one way or another on hidden candida infections i can understand the skepticism of those who see this associated with various general kinds of symptoms while there is a lack of solid demonstration that this happens and causes such general symptoms to understand this skepticism one only needs to know of past failures that shared these characteristics with the notion of hidden candida infection there have been quite a few and the proponents of all thought that the skeptics were overly skeptical on the other hand i am happy to read that some people are sufficiently interested in this possibility spurred by suggestive clinical experience to research it further the doubters may be surprised it has happened before i realize that admitting ignorance in the face of ignorance may not endear me to those who are so sure they know one way or another and indeed perhaps some of them do know i am the one who is currently ignorant but i find this the most honest route and so i am happy with it russell
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in an article jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is true focus of the medical profession the ama and the boards should focus on these quacks instead of devoting unbelievable energy on search and destroy missions to pull the licenses of those doctors who are trying non traditional or not fully accepted treatments for their desperate patients that traditional accepted medicine cannot help if i prescribe itraconazole for a patient s sinusitis neither the ama fda state licensing board nor abfp will be knocking on my door to ask why this is a specious argument on their backs and pee pee on themselves in obedience what do they teach you in medical school how to throw your authority around among other things how to evaluate new theories and treatments let me put it another way to make my point clear quack is a nebulous word lacking in any precision its sole use is to obfuscate the issues at hand funny i thought it meant one who fraudulently misrepresents his ability and experience in the diagnosis and treatment of disease or the effects to be achieved by the treatment he offers dorland s th certainly more precision than conveyed by chronic yeast the indiscriminate use of this word is a sure sign of incompetency and coming from any medical doctor or wanna be where competency is expected is real scary the inability to discriminate between fraudulent or erroneous representations is far more frightening it is fraud to promote a treatment where the evidence for it is either lacking or against it and the quacksalver knows so or error if the honest practitioner doesn t know so failure to speak out against either bespeaks incompetency p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group may i reply seriously that if the practitioners and proponents of non scientific medicine have left their minds so open that the parts of their brains that do critical evaluation have fallen out they should learn to edit their newsgroup headers to conform to the existing hierarchy and divisions john angelo gnassi lab of computer science jgnassi hstbme mit edu massachusetts general hospital eternal student boston massachusetts usa the earth be spanned connected by a network walt whitman
sci.med	re frequent nosebleeds in a previous article mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington says in article aa seastar seashell bebmza sru chvpkh chevron com beverly m zalan writes my year son is so plagued lots of vaseline up his nose each night seems to keep it under control but let him get bopped there and he ll recur for days also allergies colds dry air all seem to contribute but again the vaseline or a d ointment or neosporin all seem to keep them from recurring if you can get it you might want to try a canadian over the counter product called secaris which is a water soluble gel compared to vaseline or other greasy ointments secaris seems more compatible with the moisture that s already there secaris is reasonably inexpensive cdn for a tube and is indeed an over the counter medication why it does not appear to be available in the us i don t know it s manufactured in montreal it s a nasal lubricant and is intended to help nosebleeds that result from dry mucous membranes from some of the replies to my original posting it s evident that some people do not secrete enough mucous to keep their nose lining protected from environmental influences ie dry air but i ve had no responses from anyone with experience with rutin is there another newsgroup that might have specifics on herbal remedies but thanks to all those who did reply with their experiences robert allison
sci.med	net address for who i am looking for the email address of the world health organization in particular the address for the department of nursing or the chief scientist for nursing dr miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address i have is the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland please respond directly to me thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser rn elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce in article apr donner sandiego ncr com davel davelpcsandiego ncr com dave lord writes in article r pcn rm terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes in article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki i m not sure of the exact recipe but i m sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients it s plain yoghurt with grated cucumber and coriander other spices are sometimes used some people use half yoghurt and half mayonaise in the kind i have made i used a lite sour cream instead of yogurt may not be as good for you but i prefer the taste a few small bits of cuke in addition to the grated cuke may also finish the sauce off nicely trh mutrh uxa ecn bgu edu
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction ken isis cns caltech edu writes i don t know the first thing about yeast infections but i am a scientist no scientist would take your statement no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome to tell you anything except an absence of data on the question the burden of proof rests upon those who claim the existence of this syndrome to date these claims are unsubstantiated by any available data hopefully as a scientist you would take issue with anyone overstating their conclusions based upon their data beasties with present methods even if they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set of anecdotal evidence in favor based on their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many of them appear to get better gee i have many interesting and enlightening anecdotes about myself my friends and my family but in the practice of medicine i expect and demand more rigorous rationales for basing therapy than aunt susie s brother in law anecdotal evidence may provide inspiration for a hypothesis but rarely proves anything in a positive sense and unlike mathematics boolean logic rarely applies directly to medical issues and so evidence of exceptions does not usually disprove but rather modifies current concepts of disease so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other in which case please there is no point in yelling back and forth at each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive or negative i would characterize it not as abject disbelief but rather scientific outrage over vastly overstated conclusions it appears to me the main question now is whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence in a convincing and documented enough manner to make a good case for carrying out a good controlled double blind study of antifungals or else forget convincing anybody else to carry out the test just carry it out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population or symptoms on which such a study should be carried out to provide a fair test of the hypothesis i have no problem with such an approach but this is not what is happening in the trenches of this diagnosis bob schmieg
sci.med	adenocarcinoma of the lungs putting aside our substantial differences i d like to ask the knowledgeable ones to give feedback on this let me explain one of my family members last week was discovered to have a brain tumor after having some difficulties with walking and writing she is years old otherwise she is in fine health the discovery was made via cat scans she then had mri scans done where small cancerous areas were discovered in her lungs biopsies showed it to be adenocarcinoma one spot is in the lungs and another in the pneumothorax the oncologists believe the cancer started in the lungs and caused the brain tumor she smoked until four years ago anyway i d like feedback as to what adenocarcinoma is how it is different from other cancers how she will be treated luckily the tumor is right below the skull and can be easily removed and statistically what are the chances for full remission recovery thanks jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	prk referral in canada could some please refer me to someone who can perform prk photo refractive keratostomy in canada preferably eastern portion i ve looked in the yellow pages with little success and if someone has had a good or bad for that matter experience that would be especially helpful if you could please let me know thanks kurt hozak hozak lab cc wmich edu preferred address
sci.med	re cholistasis sp fat free diet pregnancy aldridge netcom com jacquelin aldridge writes i decided to come back and amend this so it quotes me and has added comments heart access digex com g writes hi it started to hurt when i lay on my right side and then it hurt no matter what position i was in next i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone and the pain in the area got worse however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to cut the fat it wasn t as much of a problem so the doctor says i have cholistatis and that i should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own but i m still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants me to be on a non fat diet this means no meat except fish and chicken w o skin i do this anyway no nuts fried food cheese etc i am allowed skim milk she said i should avoid anything sweet e g bananas also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day potatoes pasta rice she said i can t even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed i m concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process and if g for one week she probably wants to see how you react to the diet if it changes anything you can live on the diet but you need to up your non fat calories where before you had a pat of butter now you need a medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more of them not terrific amounts of meat it s hard to digest anyway first even fish fowl and breads have fat second the body will make fat out of carbohydrates if it needs them third your body like most peoples wasn t bred to live on a high fat modern diet if you read texts about ancient and primative people you will read about the luxury of eating fat how people enjoyed it this was because it was so rare even cows didn t put out nearly the amount of butterfat in milk that they do now for comfort and to make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta or rice which give their calories up slowly rather than bread or corn maybe smaller meals as you may be getting less room in the stomach area is the baby still coming up is it starting to push or rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn t be wearing any clothing that compresses your middle be sure not to suck in your stomach when sitting again it will put pressure on the digestive tract try laying on your sides back and stay in reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier on your legs circulation as well you might try letting the baby turn or at least not be forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted it s easy for that baby to end up right under the diaphram especially if you have tight abdominal muscles if i had my second one to do over again i think i d have tried to loosen up since he didn t turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have a thing about weight gain in pregnancy or maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially if she s young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might be coming up is something to be avoided if possible you don t want to become ill with it while you are pregnant if you are lucky you can work on getting rid of it after the baby it is said that doctors have less gallbadder surgery than the rest of the population a good part of it is that they are willing to do the dieting etc that helps them avoid surgery also i don t think the surgery lets a person go back to eating a high fat diet nausea etc can vary from person to person and with each pregnancy my first pregnancy was miserable during the second i had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had a statistically better chance of carrying their baby grain of salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition these are my last words on the subject from lundby rtsg mot com walter f lundby writes as a person who is very sensitive to msg and whose wife and kids are too i want to know why the food industry wants to put msg in food some people think it enhances the flavor i personally don t think it helps the taste it makes me sick so i try to avoid it from dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes sez you such an effect in humans has not been demonstrated in any controlled studies infant mice and other models are useful as far as they go but they re not relevant to the matter at hand which is not to say that i favor its use in things like baby food a patently ridiculous use of the additive but we have no reason to believe that msg in the diet effects humans adversely well i know that msg effects me adversely maybe not permanently but at least temporarily enough that i like to try to avoid the stuff from kiran village com kiran wagle writes if you don t like additives then for godsake get off the net and learn to cook from scratch sheesh excuse me why can t people learn to cook from scratch on the net i ve gotten lots of recipes off the net that don t use additives if you like additives then get off the net and go to your local supermarket buy lots of packaged foods and you get off the net is it to cover up the fact that the recipes are not very good or the food is poor quality yes and you buy it says something about your taste eh i don t and what happens when the companies forced to submit to your silly notions go out of business because nobody wants to buy their overpriced bad food removing preservatives directly raises food costs by reducing shelf life hey i ll pay my hard earned dollars to buy food that costs more but does not have preservatives i choose to speak with my pocketbook in many ways from kiran village com kiran wagle you have a good point msg is commonly used in soups in bottled sauces in seasoning mixtures and in the coating on barbecue potato chips nacho cheese doritos breading for many frozen fried foods like fish and chicken etc ad naseum if msg is really the problem we should call this barbecue potato chip syndrome or maybe diner syndrome or the and other natural flavorings syndrome it s been a few years since i ve bought anything labelled with and other natural flavorings from kiran village com kiran wagle the reaction came the time the msg was in the food that was the only difference same restaurant same ingredients how do you know this in order to demonstrate your claim you would have had to supervise the preparation on both occasions perhaps they used msg both times and lied about it perhaps once they used something that had begun to spoil and produced some bizarre toxin that you re allergic to well i had had similar reactions many times that was when i really started watching carefully reaction to doritos hey guess what s in there reaction to lawry s season salt guess what s in there i ll give you a hint i ve had enough problems with many many many different products with msg that i figured out one thing unless i plan on getting sick i won t eat the stuff without my seldane and did i ever learn to read labels please note that i am not saying you are making it up i am just trying to point out that the situation is not always as simple as it might seem which was why i started checking every time i got sick and every time i got sick msg was somehow involved in one of the food products and consider there were no other similar ingredients to my knowledge it might not please a medical researcher but it pleased my own personal physician enough for him to give me allergy medicine and most importantly it s enough proof for me to avoid it and enough proof that my incredibly frugal fiance didn t flinch when i literally threw out or gave away all the food products in his pantry that had msg and he always flinches when there s waste but it was a simple explanation i won t eat this stuff i won t cook with this stuff so i can either throw it out or give it away from pattee ucsu colorado edu donna pattee my guess was that the spice mix on the fries contained msg probably lawry s seasoning salt i love the way that tastes i m not saying i never consume anything with msg i ve noticed that i have a certain tolerance level like a small bag of bbq chips once a month or so it not a problem but that same bag of chips will bother me if i also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch at one of the chinese restaurants the day before from kelley healthy uwaterloo ca catherine l kelley all that s needed now is that final step a double blind study done on humans there isn t even an ethical question about possible harm as this is a widely used and approved food additive but some say that only of the population has a problem with msg some say it s more like but let s say that it s how many people would have to be tested that would have a problem also i know i have a problem with it and i wouldn t volunteer for a test like thanks guys but i don t want to get sick also i m sure that most people probably have varying degrees of sensitivities at different times if i have a cold i m much more susceptible to the reaction than when i m healthy as proven today when i m stuffy but for some silly reason i still gave in and decided to have the bbq chips from kiran village com kiran wagle because too many of you generic rhetorical you not you cathy go around calling this chinese restaurant syndrome thus suggesting to the people you complain to that you experience this only from chinese food msg is prevalent in a lot more things than chinese food thats why i suggested calling this diner syndrome cathy doesn t i haven t saved all my postings but i never called it chinese restaurant syndrome and i never stated i got it only from chinese food i just thought it would be easiest to conduct my personal test at a chinese take out place that i knew would hold or not hold the msg i can t call up whoever makes doritos and ask them to make me one back of chips without msg on the other hand if one complains about potatoes from a mix or restaurant spice mixes i m going to believe them and if anyone says they got msg sick after eating too many barbecue potato chips at a party i m really going to believe them well i believe i mentioned that in an earlier post let s see you wrote this message at date apr but on date apr gmt i wrote has anyone had an msg reaction from something other than a chinese restaurant lots of times that s why it was so hard for me to pin down i would probably have been easier if i d only have the reaction in a certain type of restaurant but i ve had the reaction in chinese restaurants and greek restaurants and italian restaurants and steak places i can tell you when a steak joint uses accent to tenderize their meat oh and just in case anyone thinks i m prejudice against either chinese food or asian people i m not going home to cook some chinese food for the guy i m marrying next week incidentally his last name is wu so stop it with the flame mail why does a woman work ten years to change a man s habits and then complain that he s not the man she married barbra streisand mary allison mary uicsl csl uiuc edu urbana illinois
sci.med	annual inguinal hernia repair last year i was totally surprised when my annual physical disclosed an inguinal hernia i couldn t remember doing anything that would have caused it that is i hadn t been lifting more than other people do and in fact probably somewhat less eventually the thing became more painful and i had the repair operation this year i developed a pain on the other side this turned out to be another inguinal hernia so i go back to the hospital monday for another fun operation i don t know of anything i m doing to cause this to happen i m years old and i don t think i m old enough for things to start falling apart like this the surgeon who is doing the operation seems to suspect a congenital weakness but if so why did it suddenly appear when i was and not really as active as i was when i was younger does anyone know how to prevent a hernia other than not lifting anything it s rare that i lift more than my month old or a sack full of groceries and you may have noticed that your typical grocery sack is fairly small these days is there some sort of exercise that will reduce the risk of course my wife thinks it s from sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news j porter clark jpc avdms msfc nasa gov or jpc gaia msfc nasa gov nasa msfc flight data systems branch
sci.med	calcium deposits on heart valve a friend a year old man has calcium deposits on one of his heart valves what causes this to happen and what can be done about it john greze execnet com
sci.med	density of the skull bone could someone tell me what the density of skull bone is or direct me to a reference that contains this info i would appreciate it very much thanks vinay vinay j rao vrao nyx cs du edu
sci.med	re krillean photography holfeltz lstc vm stortek com writes as you know all ready it is the pattern in the bioplasmic energy field that is significant no i didn t already know that i ve never even heard of a bioplasmic energy field care to explain it it s been a few years since my last fields class so i may have forgotten or maybe i skipped that day anyway as ross perot said i m all ears well eyes in this case grant edwards yow is something violent rosemount inc going to happen to a garbage can grante aquarius rosemount com
sci.med	perception of doctors and health care the following article by columnist mike royko is his humorous commentary on some of the public s perception of doctors and their salaries i hope some of you will find it as amusing as i did reprinted w o permission there s no cure for stupidity of poll on doctors salaries by mike royko tribune media services on a stupidity scale a recent poll about doctors earnings is right up there it almost scored a perfect brain dead it was commissioned by some whiny consumers group called families usa the poll tells us that the majority of americans believe that doctors make too much money the pollsters also asked what a fair income would be for physicians those polled said oh about a year would be ok how generous how sporting how stupid why is this poll stupid because it is based on resentment and envy two emotions that ran hot during the political campaign and are still simmering you could conduct the same kind of poll about any group that earns plus and get the same results since the majority of americans don t make those bucks they assume that those who do are stealing it from them maybe the berlin wall came down but don t kid yourself karl marx lives it s also stupid because it didn t ask key questions such as do you know how much education and training it takes to become a physician if those polled said no they didn t know then they should have been disqualified if they gave the wrong answers they should have been dropped what good are their views on how much a doctor should earn if they don t know what it takes to become a doctor or maybe a question should have been phrased this way how much should a person earn if he or she must a get excellent grades and a fine educational foundation in high school in order to b be accepted by a good college and spend four years taking courses heavy in math physics chemistry and other lab work and maintain a average or better and c spend four more years of grinding study in medical school with the third and fourth years in clinical training working to hours a week and d spend another year as a low pay hard work intern and e put in another three to years of post graduate training depending on your specialty and f maybe wind up in debt after medical school and g then work an average of hours a week with many family doctors putting in hours or more until they retire or fall over as you have probably guessed by now i have considerably more respect for doctors than does the law firm of clinton and clinton and all the lawyers and insurance executives they have called together to remake america s health care based on what doctors contribute to society they are far more useful than the power happy ego tripping program spewing social tinkerers who will probably give us a medical plan that is to health what clinton s first budget is to frugality but propaganda works and as the stupid poll indicates many americans wrongly believe that profiteering doctors are the major cause of high medical costs of course doctors are well compensated they should be americans now live longer than ever but who is responsible for our longevity lawyers congress or the guy flipping burgers in a mcdonald s and the doctors prolong our lives despite our having become a nation of self indulgent lard butted tv gaping couch cabbages ah that is not something you heard president clinton or super spouse talk about during the campaign or since but instead of trying to turn the medical profession into a villain they might have been more honest if they had said let us talk about medical care and one of the biggest problems we have that problem is you my fellow american yes you eating too much and eating the wrong foods many of you guzzling too much hooch still puffing away at a pack getting your daily exercise by lumbering from the fridge to the microwave to the couch doing dope and bringing crack babies into the world filling the big city emergency rooms with gunshot victims engaging in unsafe sex and catching a deadly disease while blaming the world for not finding an instant cure you and your habits not the doctors are the single biggest health problem in this country if anything it is amazing that the docs keep you alive as long as they do in fact i don t understand how they can stand looking at your blubbery bods all day so as your president i call upon you to stop whining and start living cleanly now i must go get myself a triple cheesy greasy with double fries do as i say not as i do but for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid there is another solution don t use them that s right you don t feel well then try one of those spine poppers needle twirlers or have rev bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit or there is the do it yourself approach you have chest pains then sit in front of a mirror make a slit here a slit there and pop in a couple of valves you re going to have a kid why throw your money at that overpaid sawbones so he can buy a better car and a bigger house than you will ever have while paying more in taxes and malpractice insurance than you will ever earn just have the kid the old fashioned way squat and do it and if it survives you can go to the library and find a book on how to give it its shots by the way has anyone ever done a poll on how much pollsters should earn royko is a pulitzer prize winning columnist for tribune media services vinay j rao vrao nyx cs du edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer julie it doesn t necessarily follow that you should use it msg or something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic to it for example you might not be allergic to animal fats and like their taste yet it doesn t follow that you should be using them regularly msg might have other bad or good i am not up on knowledge of msg effects on your body in the long run maybe that s reason enough not to use it altho your example of the ulcer is funny it isn t an appropriate comparison at all prakash das
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch vinci writes how about kirlian imaging i believe the faq for sci skeptics sp has a nice write up on this they would certainly be most supportive on helping you to build such a device and connect to a kvolt supply so that you can take a serious look at your aura filipe santos cern european laboratory for particle physics switzerland please sign the relevant documents and forward the remaining parts to our study effect of kv on human tissue wrapped in film thanks for your support dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi disclaimer ala foghorn leghorn it s a joke son a joke i say
sci.med	re net address for who in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu elg silver lcs mit edu elizabeth glaser writes i am looking for the email address of the world health organization in particular the address for the department of nursing or the chief scientist for nursing dr miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address i have is the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland the domain address of the who is who arcom ch so try sending email to postmaster who arcom ch josh backon vms huji ac il please respond directly to me thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser rn elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	use of haldol in elderly does anyone know of research done on the use of haldol in the elderly does short term use of the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use of the drug my grandmother recently had to be hospitalized and was given large doses of haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from a perky slightly senile woman into a virtual vegetable who does not talk to anyone and who cannot even eat or brush her teeth without assistance it seems incredible to me that such changes could take place in the course of just one and one half months i have to believe that the combination of the hospital stay and some drug s are in part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	hypodermic needle hi i am doing a term paper on the syringe and i have found some information it is said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then i have also found that alexander wood has invented it does anyone know which one it is of if it was anyone else if there is anymore information that is out there could you please send it to me thank you very much becky olsen
sci.med	re poisoning with heavy water was re too many mris all i can remember is that there was an article in scientific american maybe years ago as someone else noted rats or mice fed nothing but heavy water eventually died and the explanation was given haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya can talk all ya wanna but it s dif rent than it was no it aint but ya gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.med	re hypodermic needle in article c vij co eis calstate edu becky olsen bolsen eis calstate edu writes hi i am doing a term paper on the syringe and i have found some information it is said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then i have also found that alexander wood has invented it does anyone know which one it is of if it was anyone else if there is anymore information that is out there could you please send it to me thank you very much becky olsen looking in the evolution of anaesthesia by m h armstrong davison pub williams wilkins baltimore i found the following chronology charles gabriel pravaz inventor of the galvanocautery describes a glass syringe with tapered nozzle this syringe was intended to be used with a special trocar for injecting ferric chloride into aneurysms and thus to heal them by coagulation alexander wood of edinburgh invents the hypodermic needle and adapts pravaz s syringe for use with it you might also be interested to read about the experiments of sir christopher wren in described by oldenberg clarck in the philosophical transactions of the royal society in using a sharpened quill and a pig s bladder he injected opium wine and beer into the veins of dogs don mackie um anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article rcfj innmds roundup crhc uiuc edu mary uicsl csl uiuc edu mary e allison writes which was why i started checking every time i got sick and every time i got sick msg was somehow involved in one of the food products which points up the studies made by amateurs did you also check every time you did not get sick no you say why not check every thing you eat when you don t get sick and find out how much msg you re actually consuming all that s needed now is that final step a double blind study done on humans there isn t even an ethical question about possible harm as this is a widely used and approved food additive but some say that only of the population has a problem with msg some say it s more like but let s say that it s how many people would have to be tested that would have a problem also i know i have a problem with it and i wouldn t volunteer for a test if you knew enough about what the test was about to decide that you didn t want to participate because it involved msg you d ve already made yourself ineligible since msg is detectable by taste how can anybody be so clueless as to what double blind studies are all about carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier says from now on it looks like shots per week for months followed by shot per month or so each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system i would call that a racket we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor s office apart from this issue i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever is that right you might look for an allergy doctor in your area who uses sublingual drops instead of shots for treatment you are given a small bottle of antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes my allergy to bermuda grass was neutralized this way throughout the treatment process i had to return to the doctor s office every month for re testing and a new bottle of antigens after the allergy was completely neutralized a bottle of maintenance antigens lasts me about months the sublingual drops are then taken times per week and costs so the cost is less than shots and it is more convenient just to take the drops at home bruce long
sci.med	localized fat reduction due to exercise question i was just wondering if exercises specific to particular regions of the body such as thighs will basically only tone the thighs or if fat from other parts of the body such as breasts would be affected just as much h anthony chung c amigas case western reserve university r the school of dentistry future hac po cwru edu cabal on irc ac is
sci.med	re use of haldol and the elderly i m a nursing student and i would like to respond to on haldol and the elderly message id apr fsphy physics fsu edu organization florida state university school of higher thought news software vax vms vnews b first i m sorry to hear that you have had to see your grandmother go through this i know it has to have been tough there are many things that can cause long term confusion in elderly adults the change in environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out of the body as easily in addition medications and interactions between medications can cause confusion as far as whether or not haldol can have long lasting effects even after the drug has been discontinued i do not know i have not seen anything to that effect however i also had not been looking for that information i can see what i can find i can tell you that haldol is an antipsychotic drug and according to the nursing drug handbook it is especially useful for agitation associated with senile dementia p it also should not be discontinued abruptly it did not say anything about long lasting effects because so many things can cause confusion it is hard for me to know what else was going on at the time if i had more history i might be able to answer you better if you want to send me e mail with more information i would be happy to try to help you piece together what might have happened elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	roc curves software i understand robert centor has a program called roc analyzer that can be used to do receiver operating characteristic roc curve analysis does anyone know if this is avaliable from an ftp site if not does anyone know how to get a copy of it howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re re use of haldol and the elderly in article c az m mailer cc fsu edu picl account picl fsphy physics fsu edu writes adults the change in environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out of the body as easily the original poster did not say why his mother had been in hospital but i can answer a few general points elderly patients may exhibit a marked difficulty in coping after being in hospital for a few days the drastic change of environment will often unmask how marginally they have been coping at home even young people find the change unsettling though we have thought that this decrement in function after say anaesthesia and surgery for a fractured hip a common event in the elderly was due to anaesthesia there is good evidence that the change of situation is much more important some hospitals have tried a rapid transit system for hip fractures aiming to have the patient back at home within hours of admission the selection of the anaesthetic has no effect on the ability to discharge these patients early anaesthetists who work with the elderly which is almost all of us generally take care to tailor the choice and dose of drugs used to the individual patient even so there is some evidence that full mental recovery may take a surprisingly long time to return this is the sort of thing which is detected by setting quite difficult tasks not the gross change that the original poster noted haloperidol haldol tm is a long acting drug the plasma half life of the drug is up to hours if the decanoate a sort of slow release formulation is used it may be weeks the elderly are sensitive to haloperidol for a number of reasons without knowing more it is hard to comment don mackie his opinions esiology will disavow
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling us that none of the drugs interact they even took the attitude that if he was disoriented they should put him on something else as well with the help of an md friend of the family we had all his medication discontinued he had a seizure that night and was put back on one drug two days later he was his old self again i guess there aren t many medical texts that address the subject of way interactions i don t mean this as a cheap shot at the medical profession it is an aspect of hospitals that is very frightening to me docs seem to believe that because they have close control of you it s quite all right to take your bodily equilibria into their own hands that control reduces the chance that the patient will make a mistake but health care providers can make mistakes too and mistakes can be deadly under those circumstances i grant you that sometimes there s no choice nevertheless i suggest you procure a list of the drugs your grandmother is getting and discuss it with an independent doc her problems may not be the effect of haldol at all haldol may have been used validly or it may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly just my opinion larry obviously not a doc c
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce i got this recipe from a watier on the greek island of samos they use it as a spread for bread there butit is excellent on gyro s as well by the way the actual name is tzatziki here is the recipe yoghurt chopped garlic peeled chopped cucumber salt white pepper a little olive oil and a little vinegar i would love to hear of any other good greek recipes out there jon walker jowalker oboe calpoly edu
sci.med	hypodermic syringe while i don t have an answer for you i reckon blaise pascal is generally credited with inventing the syringe per se i don t know much about the needles however i do know of a southwest virginia country doctor who some thrity or more years ago invented patented used and sold a syringe hypodermic needle combination that retracted injected with the flip of a trigger then retracted giving a near painless injection the fellow was dr daniel gabriel and it was termed the gabriel somebody else syringe did you come across that one plastic disposable syringes came onto the market about that time and his product went by the wayside to my knowledge
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly in article yfqmlek iv co l andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu writes i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate drugs no wonder he became confused with so many drugs it is almost impossible to know which one is causing the problem and because some drugs potentiate the effect of each other they can make the side effects all the worse and even dangerous kinda like mixing alcohol and antihistamines he was disoriened the doctors thougt they should put him on something else as well unfortunately doctors prescribe drugs to treat the side effects of the drugs a patient is receiving if one drug they are taking causes the patient s blood pressure to go up many times an antihypertensive is prescribed instead of re evaluating the need for the original drug this is why many older adults are trying to take a dozen or so drugs at home procure a list of the drugs your grandmother is getting and discuss it with an independent doc her problems may not be the effect of haldol at all haldol may have been used validly or it may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly i fully agree in addition she proably should be examined by another doctor who can re evaluate the need for the medications she is taking i can t remember the guidelines i either saw in a text or heard during a lecture but any elderly adult who is receiving medications should have the need for the drug re evaluated regularly if her current physician is unwilling to do this find one who will either check the phone book for a physician who specializes in geriatric medicine or gerontology or contact a physician referral line or the american medical society by finding a geriatric specialist he she will more likely be in tune with the special needs of elderly adults and maybe can help
sci.med	fibromyalgia cfs and sleep levels i know that there is a relationship between fibromyalgia and deep sleep i believe that there are five levels of sleep i think that r e m sleep is the third deepest level of sleep and that there are two deeper levels of sleep if i am in error in any of this please let me know which level of sleep is thought to be deficient in people with fibromyalgia are there any known sleep disturbances associated with cfs what sleep disturbances if any are associated with clinical depression do antidepressants correct the sleep disturbances in these diseases are there any good books or medical journal articles about sleep disturbances and these diseases thank you in advance for all replies the more inconvenient it is to answer the phone the more it rings origin one world los angeles b
sci.med	pregnency without sex when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur stephen
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here volume number april health info com network medical newsletter editor david dodell d m d north nd street suite scottsdale arizona usa telephone fax compilation copyright by david dodell d m d all rights reserved license is hereby granted to republish on electronic media for which no fees are charged so long as the text of this copyright notice and license are attached intact to any and all republished portion or portions the health info com network newsletter is distributed biweekly articles on a medical nature are welcomed if you have an article please contact the editor for information on how to submit it if you are interested in joining the automated distribution system please contact the editor e mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet bitnet atw h asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet or internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu anonymous ftp vm nodak edu notification list hicn notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor for information t a b l e o f c o n t e n t s centers for disease control and prevention mmwr april rates of cesarean delivery malaria among u s embassy personnel fda approval of hib vaccine for children infants dental news workshop explores oral manifestations of hiv infection food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive new rules speed approval of drugs for life threatening illnesses articles research promises preventing slowing blindness from retinal disease affluent diet increases risk of heart disease general announcments publications for health professionals from national cancer institute publications for patients available from national cancer institute aids news summaries aids daily summary for april to april aids statistics worldwide aids statistics hicnet medical newsletter page i volume number april centers for disease control and prevention mmwr rates of cesarean delivery united states source mmwr date apr cesarean deliveries have accounted for nearly million of the approximately million annual deliveries in the united states since table the cesarean rate in the united states is the third highest among reporting countries exceeded only by brazil and puerto rico this report presents data on cesarean deliveries from cdc s national hospital discharge survey nhds for and compares these data with previous years data on discharges from short stay nonfederal hospitals have been collected annually since in the nhds conducted by cdc s national center for health statistics for medical and demographic information were abstracted from a sample of inpatients discharged from participating hospitals the cesareans and vaginal births after a prior cesarean vbac presented in this report are based on weighted national estimates from the nhds sample of approximately women discharged after delivery the estimated numbers of live births by type of delivery were calculated by applying cesarean rates from the nhds to live births from national vital registration data therefore estimates of the number of cesareans in this report will not agree with previously published data based solely on the nhds stated differences in this analysis are significant at the confidence level based on the two tailed t test with a critical value of in there were cesareans per deliveries the same rate as in and similar to rates during table the primary cesarean rate i e number of first cesareans per deliveries to women who had no previous cesareans for also was stable ranging from to in the cesarean rate in the south was significantly p higher than the rates for the west midwest and northeast rates were higher for mothers aged greater than or equal to years than for younger women in proprietary hospitals than in nonprofit or government hospitals in hospitals with fewer than beds than in larger hospitals and for deliveries for which blue cross blue shield and other private insurance is the expected source of payment than for other sources of payment table the same pattern characterized primary cesarean deliveries since the early s the number and percentage of births to older women increased however if the age distribution of mothers in had remained the same as in the overall cesarean rate in would have been essentially the same as the observed based on the nhds of the approximately live births in an hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april estimated were by cesarean delivery of these an estimated births were repeat cesareans and were primary cesareans since approximately primary cesareans have been performed annually in of women who had a previous cesarean delivered vaginally compared with in of all cesareans in were associated with a previous cesarean with dystocia i e failure of labor to progress with breech presentation with fetal distress and with all other specified complications the average hospital stay for all deliveries in was days in comparison the hospital stay for a primary cesarean delivery was days and for a repeat cesarean days nearly twice the duration for vbac deliveries days or for vaginal deliveries that were not vbacs days in the average hospital stay for all deliveries was days for primary cesareans days for repeat cesareans days and for vbac and non vbac vaginal deliveries and days respectively reported by office of vital and health statistics systems national center for health statistics cdc editorial note the cesarean rate in the united states steadily increased from through however the findings in this report indicate that rates have been stable since because there is little evidence that maternal and child health status has improved during this time and because cesareans are associated with an increased risk for complications of childbirth a national health objective for the year is to reduce the overall cesarean rate to or fewer per deliveries and the primary cesarean rate to or fewer per deliveries objective postpartum complications including urinary tract and wound infections may account in part for the longer hospital stays for cesarean deliveries than for vaginal births moreover the prolonged hospital stays for cesarean deliveries substantially increase health care costs for example in the average costs for cesarean and vaginal deliveries were and respectively the additional cost for each cesarean delivery includes for physician fees and for hospital charges if the cesarean rate in had been the year objective instead of the number of cesarean births would have decreased by versus resulting in a savings of more than billion in physician fees and hospital charges despite the steady increase in vbac rates since several factors may impede progress toward the year national health objectives for cesarean delivery for example vbac rates substantially reflect the number of women offered trial of labor which has been increasingly encouraged since of women who are offered a trial of labor could deliver vaginally a level already achieved by many hospitals trial of labor was routinely offered in of hospitals surveyed in the most recent year for which hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national data are available when the vbac rate according to nhds data was the year objective specifies a vbac rate of based on all women who had a prior cesarean regardless of whether a trial of labor was attempted to reach the overall cesarean rate goal however increases in the vbac rate will need to be combined with a substantial reduction in the primary rate one hospital succeeded in reducing the rate of cesarean delivery by applying objective criteria for the four most common indications for cesarean delivery by requiring a second opinion and by instituting a peer review process other recommendations for decreasing cesarean delivery rates include eliminating incentives for physicians and hospitals by equalizing reimbursement for vaginal and cesarean deliveries public dissemination of physician and hospital specific cesarean delivery rates to increase public awareness of differences in practices and addressing malpractice concerns which may be an important factor in maintaining the high rates of cesarean delivery references notzon fc international differences in the use of obstetric interventions jama graves ej nchs summary national hospital discharge survey hyattsville maryland us department of health and human services public health service cdc advance data no taffel sm placek pj kosary cl u s cesarean section rates an update birth public health service healthy people national health promotion and disease prevention objectives full report with commentary washington dc us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no phs danforth dn cesarean section jama hospital insurance association of america table cost of maternity care physicians fees and hospital charges by census region based on consumer price index in source book of health insurance data washington dc hospital insurance association of america committee on obstetrics acog committee opinion no guidelines for vaginal delivery after a previous cesarean birth washington dc american college of obstetricians and gynecologists hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april rosen mg dickinson jc vaginal birth after cesarean a meta analysis of indicators for success obstet gynecol shiono ph fielden jg mcnellis d rhoads gg pearse wh recent trends in cesarean birth and trial of labor rates in the united states jama myers sa gleicher n a successful program to lower cesarean section rates n engl j med use of trade names and commercial sources is for identification only and does not imply endorsement by the public health service or the u s department of health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april malaria among u s embassy personnel kampala uganda source mmwr date apr the treatment and prevention of malaria in africa has become a challenging and complex problem because of increasing drug resistance although the risk of acquiring malaria for u s citizens and their dependents stationed overseas generally has been low this risk varies substantially and unpredictably during may the office of medical services department of state oms dos and cdc were notified of an increased number of malaria cases among official u s personnel stationed in kampala uganda a review of the health records from the embassy health unit ehu in kampala indicated that cases of malaria were diagnosed in official personnel from march through june compared with two cases during the same period in ehu oms dos and cdc conducted an investigation to confirm all reported malaria cases and identify potential risk factors for malaria among u s embassy personnel this report summarizes the results of the investigation malaria blood smears from of the reported case patients were available for review by oms dos and cdc a case of malaria was confirmed if the slide was positive for plasmodium sp of the persons were slide confirmed as having malaria a questionnaire was distributed to all persons served by the ehu to obtain information about residence activities use of malaria chemoprophylaxis and use of personal protection measures i e using bednets and insect repellents having window and door screens and wearing long sleeves and pants in the evening of the persons eligible for the survey responded risk for malaria was not associated with sex or location of residence in kampala although the risk for malaria was higher among children aged less than or equal to years than among persons greater than years this difference was not significant relative risk rr confidence interval ci eighty two percent of the cases occurred among persons who had been living in kampala for years compared with those living there less than year travel outside of the kampala area to more rural settings was not associated with increased risk for malaria four malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens were used by persons who participated in the survey mefloquine chloroquine and proguanil chloroquine alone and proguanil alone in addition persons who responded were not using any malaria chemoprophylaxis the risk for malaria was significantly lower among persons using either mefloquine or chloroquine and proguanil than among persons using the other regimens or no prophylaxis rr ci twelve persons not using prophylaxis reported side effects or fear of possible side effects as a reason the risk for malaria was lower among persons who reported using bednets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april all or most of the time than among persons who sometimes or rarely used bednets rr ci the risk for malaria was also lower among persons who consistently used insect repellent in the evening compared with those who rarely used repellent rr upper confidence limit risk for malaria was not associated with failure to have window or door screens or wear long sleeves or pants in the evening as a result of this investigation ehu staff reviewed with all personnel the need to use and comply with the recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens ehu staff also emphasized the need to use personal protection measures and made plans to obtain insecticide impregnated bednets and to provide window and door screens for all personnel reported by u s embassy health unit kampala uganda office of medical svcs dept of state washington d c malaria br div of parasitic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc editorial note in uganda the increase in malaria among u s personnel was attributed to poor adherence to both recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens and use of personal protection measures during a period of increased malaria transmission and intensified chloroquine resistance in sub saharan africa the findings in this report underscore the need to provide initial and continued counseling regarding malaria prevention for persons living abroad in malaria endemic areas preventive measures that are also important for short term travelers to such areas mefloquine is an effective prophylaxis regimen in africa and in most other areas with chloroquine resistant p falciparum however in some areas e g thailand resistance to mefloquine may limit its effectiveness in africa the efficacy of mefloquine compared with chloroquine alone in preventing infection with p falciparum is mefloquine is safe and well tolerated when given at mg per week over a year period the risk for serious adverse reactions possibly associated with mefloquine prophylaxis e g psychosis and convulsions is low i e episodes per users while the risk for less severe adverse reactions e g dizziness gastrointestinal complaints and sleep disturbances is similar to that for other antimalarial chemoprophylactics doxycycline has similar prophylactic efficacy to mefloquine but the need for daily dosing may reduce compliance with and effectiveness of this regimen chloroquine alone is not effective as prophylaxis in areas of intense chloroquine resistance e g southeast asia and africa in africa for persons who cannot take mefloquine or doxycycline chloroquine and proguanil is an alternative although less effective regimen chloroquine should be used for malaria prevention in areas only where chloroquine resistant p falciparum has not been reported country specific recommendations for preventing malaria and information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april on the dosage and precautions for malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens are available from health information for international travel i e yellow book or hours a day by telephone or fax references lobel ho miani m eng t et al long term malaria prophylaxis with weekly mefloquine in peace corps volunteers an effective and well tolerated regimen lancet world health organization review of central nervous system adverse events related to the antimalarial drug mefloquine geneva world health organization publication no who mal pang l limsomwong n singharaj p prophylactic treatment of vivax and falciparum malaria with low dose doxycycline j infect dis pang l limsomwong n boudreau ef singharaj p doxycycline prophylaxis for falciparum malaria lancet cdc health information for international travel atlanta us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no cdc hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fda approval of use of a new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine and a combined diphtheria tetanus pertussis and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine for infants and children source mmwr date apr haemophilus influenzae type b hib conjugate vaccines have been recommended for use in infants since and their routine use in infant vaccination has contributed to the substantial decline in the incidence of hib disease in the united states vaccines against diphtheria tetanus and pertussis during infancy and childhood have been administered routinely in the united states since the late s and has been associated with a greater than reduction in morbidity and mortality associated with infection by these organisms because of the increasing number of vaccines now routinely recommended for infants a high priority is the development of combined vaccines that allow simultaneous administration with fewer separate injections the food and drug administration fda recently licensed two new products for vaccinating children against these diseases the haemophilus b conjugate vaccine tetanus toxoid conjugate acthib trademark for vaccination against hib disease only and a combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and hib conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark a combination of vaccines formulated for use in vaccinating children against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease acthib trademark on march the fda approved a new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine polyribosylribitol phosphate tetanus toxoid conjugate prp t manufactured by pasteur merieux serum et vaccins and distributed as acthib trademark by connaught laboratories inc swiftwater pennsylvania this vaccine has been licensed for use in infants in a three dose primary vaccination series administered at ages and months previously unvaccinated infants months of age should receive two doses months apart previously unvaccinated children months of age should receive one dose a booster dose administered at months of age is recommended for all children previously unvaccinated children months of age should receive a single dose and do not require a booster more than of infants receiving a primary vaccination series of acthib trademark consecutive doses at and months of age develop a geometric mean titer of anti haemophilus b polysaccharide antibody greater than ug ml this response is similar to that of infants who receive recommended series of previously licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines for which efficacy has been demonstrated in prospective trials two u s efficacy trials of prp t were terminated early because of the concomitant licensure of other haemophilus b conjugate vaccines hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april for use in infants in these studies no cases of invasive hib disease were detected in approximately infants vaccinated with prp t these and other studies suggest that the efficacy of prp t vaccine will be similar to that of the other licensed hib vaccines tetramune trademark on march the fda approved a combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark available from lederle praxis biologicals pearl river new york combines two previously licensed products dtp triimmunol registered manufactured by lederle laboratories pearl river new york and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine hibtiter registered manufactured by praxis biologics inc rochester new york this vaccine has been licensed for use in children aged months years for protection against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease when indications for vaccination with dtp vaccine and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine coincide based on demonstration of co mparable or higher antibody responses to each of the components of the two vaccines tetramune trademark is expected to provide protection against hib as well as diphtheria tetanus and pertussis equivalent to that of already licensed formulations of other dtp and haemophilus b vaccines the advisory committee for immunization practices acip recommends that all infants receive a primary series of one of the licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines beginning at months of age and a booster dose at age months the acip also recommends that all infants receive a four dose primary series of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine at and months of age and a booster dose at years a complete statement regarding recommendations for use of acthib trademark and tetramune trademark is being developed reported by office of vaccines research and review center for biologics evaluation and research food and drug administration div of immunization national center for prevention svcs meningitis and special pathogens br div of bacterial and mycotic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc references adams wg deaver ka cochi sl et al decline of childhood haemophilus influenzae type b hib disease in the hib vaccine era jama broadhurst le erickson rl kelley pw decrease in invasive haemophilus influenzae disease in u s army children through jama murphy tv white ke pastor p et al declining incidence of haemophilus influenzae type b disease since introduction of vaccination jama hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fritzell b plotkin s efficacy and safety of a haemophilus influenzae type b capsular polysaccharide tetanus protein conjugate vaccine j pediatr acip haemophilus b conjugate vaccines for prevention of haemophilus influenzae type b disease among infants and children two months of age and older recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip diphtheria tetanus and pertussis recommendations for vaccine use and other preventive measures recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for reinforcing and booster use supplementary acip statement recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for the fourth and fifth doses of the dtp series update to supplementary acip statement recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr use of trade names and commercial sources is for identification only and does not imply endorsement by the public health service or the u s department of health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april dental news international workshop explores oral manifestations of hiv infection nidr research digest written by jody dove march national institute of dental research at the second international workshop on the oral manifestations of hiv infection held january february in san francisco participants explored issues related to the epidemiology basic molecular virology mucosal immunology and oral clinical presentations of hiv infection the workshop was organized by dr john greenspan and dr deborah greenspan of the department of stomatology school of dentistry university of california san francisco an international steering committee and scientific program committee provided guidance the conference drew more than scientists from countries including asia africa europe central america south america as well as the united states and canada support tor the workshop was provided by the national institute of dental research the national cancer institute the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases the nih office of aids research and the procter and gamble company among the topics discussed were the epidemiology of hiv lesions ethics professional responsibility and public policy occupational issues provision of oral care to the hiv positive population salivary hiv transmission and mucosal immunity opportunistic infections pediatric hiv infection and women s issues recommendations recommendations emerged from the workshop to define the association between the appearance of oral lesions and rate of progression of hiv to establish a universal terminology for hiv associated oral lesions to look for more effective treatments for oral manifestations to expand molecular biology studies to understand the relationship between hiv infection and common oral lesions and to study the effects of hiv therapy on oral lesions epidemiology since the first international workshop on oral manifestations of hiv infection was convened five years ago the epidemiology of hiv infection has hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april radically changed in hiv infection was detected and reported largely in homosexual and bisexual males intravenous drug users and hemophiliacs today more hiv infection is seen in heterosexual males and females and in children and adolescents while the predominant impact of hiv infection has been felt in africa a major increase in infection rate is being seen in southeast asia as well five hundred thousand cases have been reported to date in this region and more are appearing all the time researchers are continuing to document the epidemiology of oral lesions such as hairy leukoplakia and candidiasis they also are beginning to explore the relationships between specific oral lesions and hiv disease progression and prognosis social political issues discussion on the social and political implications of hiv infection focused on changing the public s attitude that aids is retribution for indiscriminate sexual behavior and drug use speakers also addressed health care delivery for hiv infected patients and the need to educate the public about what aids is and how it is acquired saliva and salivary glands conference speakers described transmission issues and the hiv inhibitory activity of saliva the strength of which varies among the different salivary secretions whole saliva has a greater inhibitory effect than submandibular secretions which in turn have a greater inhibitory effect than parotid secretions research has shown that at least two mechanisms are responsible for salivary inhibitory activity they attributed the hiv inhibitory effect of saliva to the aggregation agglutination of hiv by saliva which may both promote clearance of virus and prevent it reaching a target cell and direct effects on the virus or target cells other topics discussed were the manifestation of salivary gland disease in hiv infected persons and current research on oral mucosal immunity pediatric issues pediatric aids recently has emerged as an area of intense interest with early and accurate diagnosis and proper treatment the life expectancy of hiv infected children has tripled the prevention of transmission of hiv from mother to child may be possible in many cases particularly if the mother s sero status is known prior to giving birth periodontal and gingival tissue disease hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral health researchers continue to explore periodontal diseases and gingivitis found in individuals with hiv infection recommendations made at the workshop include the standardization of terminology refinement of diagnostic markers standardization of study design and proper consideration of confounding variables resulting from periodontal therapy occupational and treatment issues occupational issues surrounding the treatment of hiv infected individuals and treatment rendered by hiv infected health care professionals still command considerable attention factors under consideration include the cost benefit of hiv testing patient to health care provider transmission of hiv infection and the reverse and the use of mainstream versus dedicated facilities for the treatment of hiv infected patients conference participants anticipate that a third international workshop on the oral manifestations of hiv infection will be held in five years or less proceedings from the second workshop will be published by the quintessence company in late end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive p food and drug administration for immediate release susan cruzan the food and drug administration today announced the approval of depo provera an injectable contraceptive drug the drug which contains a synthetic hormone similar to the natural hormone progesterone protects women from pregnancy for three months per injection the hormone is injected into the muscle of the arm or buttock where it is released into the bloodstream to prevent pregnancy it is more than percent effective this drug presents another long term effective option for women to prevent pregnancy said fda commissioner david a kessler m d as an injectable given once every three months depo provera eliminates problems related to missing a daily dose depo provera is available in mg single dose vials from doctors and clinics and must be given on a regular basis to maintain contraceptive protection if a patient decides to become pregnant she discontinues the injections as with any such products fda advises patients to discuss the benefits and risks of depo provera with their doctor or other health care professional before making a decision to use it depo provera s effectiveness as a contraceptive was established in extensive studies by the manufacturer the world health organization and health agencies in other countries u s clinical trials begun in also found depo provera effective as an injectable contraceptive the most common side effects are menstrual irregularities and weight gain in addition some patients may experience headache nervousness abdominal pain dizziness weakness or fatigue the drug should not be used in women who have acute liver disease unexplained vaginal bleeding breast cancer or blood clots in the legs lungs or eyes the labeling advises doctors to rule out pregnancy before prescribing the drug due to concerns about low birth weight in babies exposed to the drug hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april recent data have also demonstrated that long term use may contribute to osteoporosis the manufacturer will conduct additional research to study this potential effect depo provera was developed in the s and has been approved for contraception in many other countries the upjohn company of kalamazoo mich which will market the drug under the name depo provera contraceptive injection first submitted it for approval in the united states in the s at that time animal studies raised questions about its potential to cause breast cancer worldwide studies have since found the overall risk of cancer including breast cancer in humans to be minimal if any hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april new rules speed approval of drugs for life threatening illnesses p food and drug administration monica revelle the food and drug administration today announced that it will soon publish new rules to shed the approval of drugs for patients with serious or life threatening illnesses such as aids cancer and alzheimer s disease these final rules will help patients who are suffering the most serious illnesses to get access to new drugs months or even years earlier than would otherwise be possible said hhs secretary louis w sullivan m d the effort to accelerate fda review for these drugs has been a long term commitment and indeed a hallmark of this administration these rules establish procedures for the food and drug administration to approve a drug based on surrogate endpoints or markers they apply when the drug provides a meaningful benefit over currently available therapies such endpoints would include laboratory tests or physical signs that do not in themselves constitute a clinical effect but that are judged by qualified scientists to be likely to correspond to real benefits to the patient use of surrogate endpoints for measurement of drug efficacy permits approval earlier than if traditional endpoints such as relief of disease symptoms or prevention of disability and death from the disease are used the new rules provide for therapies to be approved as soon as safety and effectiveness based on surrogate endpoints can be reasonably established the drug s sponsor will be required to agree to continue or conduct postmarketing human studies to confirm that the drug s effect on the surrogate endpoint is an indicator of its clinical effectiveness one new drug zalcitabine also called ddc was approved june using a model of this process for treating the human immunodeficiency virus hiv the cause of aids accelerated approval can also be used if necessary when fda determines that a drug judged to be effective for the treatment of a disease can be used safely only under a restricted distribution plan the new rules will help streamline the drug development and review process without sacrificing goad science and rigorous fda oversight said fda commissioner david a kessler m d while drug approval will be accomplished faster these drugs and biological products must still meet safety and effectiveness standards required by law hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the new procedures also allow for a streamlined withdrawal process if the postmarketing studies do not verify the drug s clinical benefit if there is new evidence that the drug product is not shown to be safe and effective or if other specified circumstances arise that necessitate expeditious withdrawal of the drug or biologic hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april articles research shows promise for preventing or slowing blindness due to retinal disease national retinitis pigmentosa foundation neutrophilic factors rescue photoreceptor cells in animal tests baltimore md researchers at the university of california san francisco and regeneron pharmaceuticals inc nasdaq regn have discovered that certain naturally occurring substances known as neurotrophic factors can prevent the degeneration of light sensing cells in the retina of the eye the degeneration of these cells known as photoreceptors is a major cause of visual impairment this research published to in the december issue of the proceedings of the national academy of science pnas holds promise for people who may lose their sight due to progressive retinal degeneration currently no drug treatment for retinal degeneration exists it is estimated that million americans have severe vision loss due to age related macular degeneration and americans are affected by retinitis pigmentosus a hereditary disease that causes blindness in addition each year more than people undergo surgical procedures to repair retinal detachments and other retinal traumas the research was funded in part by the rp retinitis pigmentosa foundation fighting blindness regeneron pharmaceuticals and the national eye institute it was conducted by drs matthew m lavail kazuhiko unoki douglas yasurnura michael t matthes and roy h steinberg at ucsf arld dr c eorge yancoooulos regeneron s vice president for discovery regeneron holds an exclusive license for this research from ucsf in the research described in the pnas a light damage model was used to assess the survival promoting activity of a number of naturally occurring substances experimental rats were exposed to constant light for one week eyes that had not been treated with an effective factor lost most of their photoreceptor cells the rods and cones of the retina after light exposure brain derived neurotrophic factor bdnf and ciliary neurotrophic factor cntf were particularly effective in this model without causing unwanted side effects other factors such as nerve growth factor ngf and insulin like growth factor igf were not effective in these experiments discussing the research dr jesse m cedarbaum regeneron s director of clinical research said bdnf s ability to rescue neurons in the retina that have been damaged by light exposure may hold promise for the treatment of age related macular degeneration one of the leading causes of vision impairment and for retinal detachment following detachment permanent vision loss may hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april result frorn the death of detached retinal cells it is possible that bdnf could play a role in rescuing those cells once the retina has been reattached surgically retinitis pigmentosa is a slowly progressing disease that causes the retina to degenerate over a period of years or even decades vision decreases to a small tunnel of sight and can result in total blindness it is our hope that research on growth factors will provide a means to slow the progression and preserve useful vision throughout life stated jeanette s felix ph d director of science for the rp foundation fighting blindness in addition to the work described regeneron is developing bdnf in conjunction with aingen inc nasdaq amgn as a possible treatment for peripheral neuropathies associated with diabetes and cancer chemotherapy motor neuron diseases parkinson s disease and alzheimer s disease by itself regeneron is testing cntf in patients with arnyotrophic lateral sclerosis commonly known as lou gehrig s disease regeneron pharlnaceuticals inc based in tarrytown new york is a leader in the discovery and development of biotechnology based compounds for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases peripheral neuropathies and nerve injuries which affect more than seven million americans drs lavail and steinberg of ucsf are consultants to regeneron hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april affluent diet increases risk of heart disease research resources reporter written by mary weideman nov dec national institutes of health high fat high calorie diets rapidly increase risk factors for coronary heart disease in native populations of developing countries that have traditionally consumed diets low in fat these findings according to investigators at the oregon health sciences university in portland have serious implications for public health in both industrialized and developing countries this study demonstrates why we can develop coronary heart disease and have higher blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels it shows also the importance of diet and particularly the potential of the diet to increase body weight thereby leading to a whole host of other health problems in developing countries and affluent nations as well explains principal investigator dr william e connor head of the section of clinical nutrition and lipid metabolism at oregon health sciences university over the past years dr connor and his team have characterized the food and nutrient intakes of the tara humara indians in mexico while simultaneously documenting various aspects of tarahumara lipid metabolism these native mexicans number approximately and reside in the sierra madre occidental mountains in the state of chihuahua the tarahumaras have coupled an agrarian diet to endurance racing probably as a result coronary heart disease which is so prevalent in western industrialized nations is virtually non existent in their culture loosely translated the name tarahumara means fleet of foot reflecting a tribal passion for betting on kickball races in which participants run distances of miles or more while kicking a machete carved wooden ball the typical tarahumara diet consists primarily of pinto beans tortillas and pinole a drink made of ground roasted corn mixed with cold water together with squash and gath ered fruits and vegetables the tara humaras also eat small amounts of game fish and eggs their food contains approximately percent of total calories as fat of which the majority percent is of vegetable origin dietician martha mcmurry a coinvestigator in the study describes their diet as simple and very rich in nutrients while low in cholesterol and fat the tarahumaras have average plasma cholesterol levels of mg dl low density lipoprotein ldl cholesterol levels of mg dl and high density lipoprotein hdl cholesterol levels of to mg dl all of those values are in the good low risk range according to the researchers elevated cholesterol and ldl cholesterol levels are considered risk factors for heart hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april disease hdl cholesterol is considered beneficial in previous studies the tarahumaras had been found to be at low risk for cardiac disease although able to respond to high cholesterol diets with elevations in total and ldl cholesterol clinical research center dietitian mcmurry and coinvestigator maria teresa cerqueira established a metabolic unit in a jesuit mission school building near a community hospital in the small village of sisoguichi food was weighed cooked and fed to the study participants under the investigators direct supervision ensuring that subjects ate only food stipulated by the research protocol fasting blood was drawn twice weekly and plasma samples were frozen and shipped to dr connors laboratory for cholesterol triglyceride and lipoprotein analyses regular measurements included participant body weight height and triceps skin fold thickness thirteen tarahumaras five women and eight men including one adolescent were fed their native diet for week followed by weeks of an affluent diet in this study we went up to a concentration of dietary fat that was percent of total calories this is the prototype of the holiday diet that many americans consume a diet high in fat sugar and cholesterol low in fiber elaborates dr conners such dietary characteristics are reflected in the cholesterol saturation index or csi recently devised research dietitian sonja conner working with dr connor the csi is a single number that incorporates both the amount of cholesterol and the amount of saturated fat in the diet csi indicates the diet s potential to elevate the cholesterol level particularly the ldl dr connor explains the tarahumaran diet averages a very low csi of dr connor s affluent diet used in the study ranks a csi of the experimental design of this study reflects the importance of establishing baseline plasma lipid levels typical of the native diet before exposing subjects to the experimental diet the standard curve relating dietary food intake to plasma cholesterol demonstrates a leveling off or plateau for consumption of large amounts of fat changes in dietary fat and or cholesterol in this range have little effect on plasma levels you must have the baseline diet almost free of the variables you are going to put into the experimental diet the framingham study for example did not discriminate on the basis of diet between individuals who got heart disease because the diet was already high in fat all subjects were already eating on a plateau dr connor says after weeks of consuming the affluent diet the subjects mean plasma cholesterol levels had in creased by percent primarily in the ldl fraction which rose percent hdl cholesterol increased by per cent and ldl to hdl ratios changed therefore very little plasma triglyceride levels increased by percent and subjects averaged an pound gain in weight according to dr connor lipid changes occurred surprisingly soon yielding nearly the same results after days of affluent diet as after days hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the increase in hdl carries broad dietary implications for industrialized nations we think hdl cholesterol increased because we increased the amount of dietary fat over the fat content used in the previous tarahumara metabolic study in that study we saw no change in hdl levels after raising the dietary cholesterol but keeping the fat relatively consistent with native consumption in the present study we increased fat intake to percent of the total calories we reached the conclusion in the tarahumara study that hdl reflects the amount of dietary fat in general and not the amount of dietary cholesterol hdl must increase to help metabolize the fat and it increased quite a bit in this study dr connor explains low hdl in the tarahumarans is not typically an important predictor of coronary heart disease because they do not normally consume large amounts of fat or cholesterol hdl remains an important predictor to americans because of their usual high fat intake dr connor recommends a diet for americans that contains less than percent of total calories as fat less than mg of cholesterol and a csi around varying in accordance with caloric needs such a diet is low in meat and dairy fat high in fiber dr connor also comments on recent suggestions that americans adopt a mediterranean style diet the original mediterranean diet in its pristine state consisted of a very low intake of fat and very few animal and dairy products we are already eating a lot of meat and dairy products simply to continue that pattern while switching to olive oil is not going to help the situation the world health organization who is focusing much attention on the emergence of diseases such as coronary heart disease in nations and societies undergoing technological development dr connor says that coronary heart disease starts with a given society s elite who typically eat a different diet than the average citizen if the pattern of afluence increases the entire population will have have a higher incidence of coronary heart disease which places a termendous health care burden on a society who would like the developing countries to prevent coronary heart disease so they can concentrate on other aspects of their economic development and on public health measures to improve general well being rather than paying for unnecessary expensive medical technology dr connors says the overall implication of this study is that humans can readily move their plasma lipids and lipoprotein values into a high risk range within a very short time by an affluent excessive diet the present rate of coronary heart disease in the united states is percent less than it was years ago so a lot has been accomplished we are changing rapidly he concludes hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april general announcments publications for health professionals available from nci unless otherwise noted the following materials are provided free of charge by calling the nci s publication ordering service cancer because federal government publications are not subject to copyright restriction you are free to photocopy nci material general information anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered cancer rates and risks rd edition this book is a compact guide to statistics risk factors and risks for major cancer sites it includes charts and graphs showing incidence mortality and survival worldwide and in the united states it also contains a section on the costs of cancer pages diet nutrition cancer prevention a guide to food choices this booklet describes what is now known about diet nutrition and cancer prevention it provides information about foods that contain components like fiber fat and vitamins that may affect a person s risk of getting certain cancers it suggests ways to use that information to select from a broad variety of foods choosing more of some foods and less of others includes recipes and sample menus pages national cancer institute fact book this book presents general information about the national cancer institute including budget data grants and contracts and historical information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national cancer institute grants process revised this booklet describes general nci grant award procedures includes chapters on eligibility preparation of grant application peer review eligible costs and post award activities pages physician to physician perspective on clinical trials this minute videocassette discusses why and how to enter patients on clinical trials it was produced in collaboration with the american college of surgeons commission on cancer students with cancer a resource for the educator revised this booklet is designed for teachers who have students with cancer in their classrooms or schools it includes an explanation of cancer its treatment and effects and guidelines for the young person s re entry to school and for dealing with terminally ill students bibliographies are included for both educators and young people pages understanding the immune system this booklet describes the complex network of specialized cells and organs that make up the human immune system it explains how the system works to fight off disease caused by invading agents such as bacteria and viruses and how it sometimes malfunctions resulting in a variety of diseases from allergies to arthritis to cancer it was developed by the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and printed by the national cancer institute this booklet presents college level instruction in immunology it is appropriate for nursing or pharmacology students and for persons receiving college training in other areas within the health professions pages materials to help stop tobacco use chew or snuff educator package each package contains ten copies of chew or snuff is real bad stuff a brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders that describes the health and social effects of using hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can be used as a poster one copy of chew or snuff is real bad stuff a guide to make young people aware of the dangers of using smokeless tobacco this booklet is a lesson plan for teachers it contains facts about smokeless tobacco suggested classroom activities and selected educational resources how to help your patients stop smoking a national cancer institute manual for physicians this is a step by step handbook for instituting smoking cessation techniques in medical practices the manual with resource lists and tear out materials is based on the results of nci clinical trials pages how to help your patients stop using tobacco a national cancer institute manual for the oral health team this is a handbook for dentists dental hygienists and dental assistants it complements the physicians manual and includes additional information on smoking prevention and on smokeless tobacco use pages pharmacists helping smokers quit kit a packet of materials to help pharmacists encourage their smoking patients to quit contains a pharmacist s guide and self help materials for patients school programs to prevent smoking the national cancer institute guide to strategies that succeed this guide outlines eight essential elements of a successful school based smoking prevention program based on nci research it includes a list of available curriculum resources and selected references pages self guided strategies for smoking cessation a program planner s guide this booklet outlines key characteristics of successful self help materials and programs based on nci collaborative research it lists additional resources and references pages smoking policy questions and answers these ten fact sheets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april provide basic information about the establishment of worksite smoking policies topics range from the health effects of environmental tobacco smoke to legal issues concerning policy implementation strategies to control tobacco use in the united states a blueprint for public health action in the s smoking and control monograph no this volume provides a summary of what has been learned from years of a public health effort against smoking from the early trial and error health information campaigns of the s to the nci s science based project american stop smoking intervention study for cancer prevention which began in it offers reasons why comprehensive smoking control strategies are now needed to address the smoker s total environment and to reduce smoking prevalence significantly over the next decade materials for outreach programs cancer prevention and early detection community outreach programs for health professionals three kits are available for community program planners and health professionals to set up local cancer prevention and early detection education projects do the right thing get a new attitude about cancer community outreach program this community outreach kit targets black american audiences it contains materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs for black audiences the kit emphasizes the early detection of breast cancer by mammography and of cervical cancer by the pap test it also discusses smoking and nutrition the kit includes helpful program guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures hagalo hoy community outreach program this community outreach kit targets hispanic audiences it contains bilingual and spanish language materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs the materials educate hispanic audiences about early detection of breast cancer by mammography hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and of cervical cancer by pap tests the kit also discusses smoking and related issues the kit includes helpful guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures once a year for a lifetime community outreach mammography program this community outreach kit targets all women age or over it supplies community program planners and health professionals with planning guidance facts about mammography news articles visuals and brochures making health communication programs work a planner s guide this handbook presents key principles and steps in developing and evaluating health communications programs for the public patients and health professionals it expands upon and replaces pretesting in health communications and making psas work pages support material for community outreach programs the video and slide presentations listed below support the mammography outreach programs once a year for a lifetime videotape this minute vhs videotape uses a dramatic format to highlight the important facts about the early detection of breast cancer by mammography una vez al ano para toda una vida videotape this minute spanish videotape informs spanish speaking women of the need for medical screening particularly mammography it explains commonly misunderstood facts about breast cancer and early detection the program in a dramatic format features edward james olmos and cristina saralegui once a year for a lifetime speaker s kit slide show this kit includes full color slides and a number coded ready to read script suitable for a mammography presentation to a large group it addresses the misconceptions prevalent about mammography and urges women age and older to get regular mammograms so that breast cancer can be detected as early as possible kit hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april includes a guide poster media announcement news feature flyer and pamphlets on mammography this kit is available directly by writing to modern park street north st petersburg fl end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here call for employers to keep information about the hiv status of health care workers confidential but doctors who know of an hiv positive colleague who has not sought advice must inform the employing authority and the appropriate professional regulatory body the guidelines also emphasize the significance of notifying all patients on whom an invasive procedure has been done by an infected health care worker a model letter to patients who have come into contact with such an individual is provided along with suggestions for health officials on how to deal with the media in addition a u k advisory panel on hiv infection in health care workers has been formed to provide specific occupational recommendations to those treating such patients properties of an hiv vaccine nature vol no p volvovitz franklin and smith gale the questions raised by moore et al about recombinant gp envelope glycoprotein precursor from hiv produced by microgenesys are advantages rather than disadvantages write franklin volvovitz and gale smith of microgenesys in meriden conn moore et al says that gp in a baculovirus expression system does not bind strongly to the cd receptor and that this recombinant gp does not stimulate the same antibodies as the hiv virus does in natural infection but vaccination with recombinant gp in patients infected with hiv broadens hiv specific envelope directed immune responses including crossreactive antibodies to gp epitopes and cd and cd cytotoxic t cell responses volvovitz and smith claim that they never intended their gp molecule to be identical to the native protein antibody responses against native hiv proteins including the types described by moore et al exist in nearly all aids patients but do not prevent hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april progression of hiv disease in addition the binding of gp or gp antibody complexes to cd has been shown to interfere with antigen specific activation of cd cells and trigger programmed cell death in vitro which may contribute to the pathogenesis of hiv infection the absence of cd binding by the microgenesys gp vaccine may therefore be viewed as an added safety feature phase i studies have demonstrated stable cd counts stimulation of cytotoxic t cells and the suggestion of restoration of immune function based on these and other clinical results microgenesys gp was chosen by researchers at the karolinska institute in sweden for the first phase iii vaccine therapy studies conclude volvovitz and smith hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol no p mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok of the lancet the anti infective properties of milk are well documented while the numbers of leukocytes concentrations of lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months with percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv positive mothers the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had a longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies of the biological properties of milk from hiv infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins as well as iga antibodies against core antigens binding of hiv to the cd receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor in the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality breast milk is still the best food for infants regardless of the mother s hiv status transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids concludes mok absence of hiv transmission from an infected dentist to his patients journal of the american medical association vol no p dickinson gordon m et al if universal precautions are practiced the risk of hiv transmission from dentist to patient appears to be infinitesimal write gordon m dickinson hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april et al of the university of miami school of medicine in miami fla the researchers contacted all patients treated by a dentist with aids and attempts were made to contact all patients for hiv testing living patients with newly detected hiv infection were interviewed and dna sequence analysis was performed to compare genetic relatedness of their hiv to that of the dentist death certificates were obtained for deceased patients and the medical records of those with diagnoses suggestive of hiv disease or drug abuse and those dying under the age of years were examined in detail there were patients who had undergone procedures of whom were deceased an examination of the death certificates of patients identified five who had died with hiv infection all of whom were either homosexuals or iv drug users the researchers were able to detect of the remaining patients and agreed to be tested hiv infection was reported in five of the patients including four who had clear evidence of risk factors for the disease one patient who had only a single evaluation by the dentist denied high risk behavior comparative dna sequence analysis showed that the viruses from the dentists and these five patients were not closely related the study suggests the potential for hiv transmission from a general dentist to his patients is minimal in a setting in which universal precautions are strictly observed conclude dickinson et al april aids patients are susceptible to recurrences of tb study says washington post p a tuberculosis can strike aids patients more than once which makes the resurging health hazard harder to control according to a study published in today s new england journal of medicine people who contract tb usually develop an immunity that protects them if they are exposed to the bacteria again but a person whose immune system is depleted may not be able to fight off a new tb infection doctors found peter m small of the howard hughes medical institute at stanford university director of the study said that in order to protect against reinfection it may be necessary for some people to use tb medicines permanently the study examined the genetic makeup of tb bacteria and how the germs changed over time in patients at kings county hospital in new york hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol no p mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok of the lancet the anti infective properties of milk are well documented while the numbers of hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april leukocytes concentrations of lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months with percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv positive mothers the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had a longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies of the biological properties of milk from hiv infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins as well as iga antibodies against core antigens binding of hiv to the cd receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor in the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality breast milk is still the best food for infants regardless of the mother s hiv status transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids concludes mok hiv and the aetiology of aids lancet vol no p duesberg peter because there is no proof that hiv is the cause of aids the hypothesis that drug use leads to aids will hopefully become a hindrance to the physiologically azt and psychologically positive aids test toxic public health initiatives writes peter duesberg of the university of california berkeley in the lancet s march issue schechter et al call duesberg s hypothesis that injected and orally used recreational drugs and azt lead to aids a hindrance to public health initiatives however their hypothesis that hiv is the cause of aids has not attained any public health benefits the u s government spends billion annually but no vaccine no therapy no prevention and no aids control have resulted from work on this hypothesis schechter et al conclude that hiv has a key role in cd depletion and aids based on epidemiological correlations with antibodies against hiv and with self reported recreational drug use among homosexuals from vancouver however their survey neglects to disprove duesberg s drug aids hypothesis because it does not provide controls i e confirmed drug free aids cases and because it does not quantify drug use and ignores azt use altogether to refute duesberg s hypothesis schechter would have to produce a controlled study demonstrating that over a period of up to years hiv positive patients who use recreational drugs or azt or both have the same aids risks as positives who do not do so the year period is claimed by hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proponents of the hiv hypothesis to be the time needed for hiv to cause aids alternatively they could show that hiv free individuals who have used drugs for years never get aids defining illnesses concludes duesberg rapid decline of cd cells after ifna treatment in hiv infection lancet vol no p vento sandro et al interferon ifn which induces autoantibodies and autoimmune diseases in some settings may hasten cd t cell loss in some hiv infected individuals through the amplification of harmful autoimmune reactions write sandro vento et al of the a pugliese hospital in catanzaro italy the researchers report three asymptomatic hiv infected individuals with hepatitis c virus related chronic active hepatitis cah who had a rapid profound decline of cd cells after ifn all three patients throughout the observation were consistently negative for serum hiv p antigen and had circulating antibodies to p sera from all three patients obtained at the end of ifn treatment and testing in enzyme linked immunosorbent assay contained high titres of antibodies reacting to a sequence located in the aminoterminal of the beta chain of all human hla class ii antigens homologous to a sequence located in the carboxy terminus of hiv gp these autoantibodies which also recognize native class ii molecules and may contribute to the elimination of cd t cells in vivo were at low tires in all three patients six months after stopping ifn such autoantibodies were not detected in other patients with hiv infection and hcv related cah treated with ifn and who did not experience cd t cell loss in some hiv infected individuals through the amplification of harmful autoimmune reactions the subjects had a b dr and b dr hla antigen combinations which are linked with a more rapid fall in cd cell counts and clinical progression of hiv disease ifn can induce a very rapid decline of cd cells and should be used cautiously in patients with these hla haplotypes the researchers conclude april tb makes a comeback state government news vol no p voit william and knapp elaine s although tuberculosis was once believed to be eliminated in the united states it is emerging again among the homeless aids patients immigrants minorities and prisoners dr lee b reichman professor of medicine at the university of new jersey medical school and president of the american lung association said right now it s a big city problem but potentially it s everyone s problem the ala predicts that million americans are infected with tb and about percent of them will develop the disease because their immune systems are depressed especially those with aids or hiv gene hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april tammes a centers for disease control expert said that is why the cdc has issued guidelines warning hospitals and institutions not to mix aids with tb patients state health officials believe the tb is also spreading because those who are most susceptible are the least likely to follow through with treatment in addition the increase is attributed to a shortage of public health services in new york city tb is an epidemic because the number of cases is increasing faster than we can treat people said dr george diferdinando director of the new york state tb control according to diferdinando curbing the spread of tb entails keeping percent or more of diagnosed tb cases in treatment about percent of infected new york city residents don t complete therapy when tb patients don t finish taking their medication multi drug resistant tb can develop which requires taking more expensive drugs and can take two years instead of the normal six months to treat increasing frequency of heterosexually transmitted aids in southern florida artifact or reality american journal of public health vol no p nwanyanwu okey c et al the alarmingly high rate of heterosexually acquired aids cases in southern florida was partially related to misclassification of risk write okey c nwanyanwu et al of the centers for disease control in atlanta ga the researchers investigated such aids cases from broward and coastal palm beach counties all of these cases attributed to heterosexual transmission reported sexual contact with bisexual men injecting drug users or persons born in countries where heterosexual contact is the primary route of hiv transmission medical records of patients in addition to records from social services hiv counseling and testing centers and sexually transmitted disease std clinics were reviewed if no other hiv risk factor was found from medical record review patients were interviewed using a standardized questionnaire once std clinic and other medical records were reviewed men and women were reclassified into other hiv transmission categories after adjustments were made for the reclassification the percentage of aids cases reported from palm beach and broward counties between january and march that was attributed to heterosexual transmission decreased from percent to percent among men and from percent to percent among women while the percentage of heterosexually transmitted aids cases in southern florida decreased after adjustment was made for reclassified cases it still remained above the national average the researchers conclude hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids statistics world health organization geneva organisation mondiale de la sante geneve weekly epidemiological record releve epidemiologique hebdomadaire january th year acquired immunodeficiency syndrome aids data as at december syndrome d immunodeficience acquise sida donnees au decembre number date of of cases report country area nombre date pays territoire de cas de notifi cation africa afrique algeria algerie angola benin benin botswana burkina faso burundi cameroon cameroun cape verde cap vert central african republic republique centrafricaine chad tchad comoros comores congo cote d ivoire djibouti egypt egypte equatorial guinea guinee equatoriale ethiopia ethiopie hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april gabon gambia gambie ghana guinea guinee guinea bissau guinee bissau kenya lesotho liberia liberia libyan arab jamahiriya jamahiriya arabe libyenne madagascar malawi mali mauritania mauritanie mauritius maurice morocco maroc mozambique namibia namibie niger nigeria nigeria reunion reunion rwanda sao tome and principe sao tome et principe senegal senegal seychelles sierra leone somalia somalie south africa afrique du sud sudan soudan swaziland togo tunisia tunisie uganda ouganda united republic of tanzania republique unie de tanzanie zaire zaire zambia zambie zimbabwe total hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april americas ameriques anguilla antigua and barbuda antigua et barbuda argentina argentine bahamas barbados barbade belize bermuda bermudes bolivia bolivie brazil bresil british virgin islands iles vierges britanniques canada cayman islands iles caimanes chile chili colombia colombie costa rica cuba dominica dominique dominican republic republique dominicaine ecuador equateur el salvador french guiana guyane francaise grenada grenade guadeloupe guatemala guyana haiti haiti honduras jamaica jamaique martinique mexico mexique montserrat netherlands antilles and aruba antilles neerlandaises et aruba nicaragua panama paraguay peru perou hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april saint kitts and nevis saint kitts et nevis saint lucia sainte lucie saint vincent and the grenadines saint vincent et grenadines suriname trinidad and tobago trinite et tobago turks and caicos islands iles turques et caiques united states of america etats unis d amerique uruguay venezuela total asia asie afghanistan bahrain bahrein bangladesh bhutan bhoutan brunei darussalam brunei darussalam burma see myanmar birmanie voir myanmar cambodia cambodge china a chine a cyprus chypre democratic people s republic of korea republique populaire democratique de coree hong kong india inde indonesia indonesie iran islamic republic of iran republique islamique d iraq israel israel hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april japan japon jordan jordanie kuwait koweit lao people s democratic republic republique democratique populaire lao lebanon liban macao malaysia malaisie maldives mongolia mongolie myanmar nepal nepal oman pakistan philippines qatar republic of korea republique de coree saudi arabia arabie saoudite singapore singapour sri lanka syrian arab republic republique arabe syrienne thailand thailande turkey turquie united arab emirates emirats arabes unis viet nam yemen yemen total europe albania albanie austria autriche belarus belarus belgium belgique bulgaria bulgarie czechoslovakia tchecoslovaquie denmark danemark finland finlande hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april france germany allemagne greece grece hungary hongrie iceland islande ireland irlande italy italie latvia lettonie lithuania lituanie luxembourg malta malte monaco netherlands pays bas norway norvege poland pologne portugal romania roumanie russian federation federation de russie san marino saint marin spain espagne sweden suede switzerland suisse united kingdom royaume uni yugoslavia b yougoslavie b total oceania oceanie american samoa samoa americaines australia australie cook islands iles cook federated states of micronesia etats federes de micronesie fiji fidji french polynesia polynesie francaise guam kiribati mariana islands iles mariannes marshall islands iles marshall nauru new caledonia and dependencies hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april nouvelle caledonie et dependances new zealand nouvelle zelande niue palau papua new guinea papouasie nouvelle guinee samoa solomon islands iles salomon tokelau tonga tuvalu vanuatu wallis and futuna islands iles wallis et futuna total world total total mondial a the above statistics relating to china do not include cases of aids in the province of taiwan les statistiques ci dessus se rapportant a la chine ne comprennent pas cas de sida dans la province de taiwan b refers to republics and areas of the former socialist federal republic of yugoslavia bosnia and herzegovina croatia macedonia montenegro serbia slovenia se refere aux republiques et territoires de l ancienne republique federative socialiste de yougoslavie bosnie herzegovine croatie macedoine montenegro serbie slovenie hicnet medical newsletter page cut here this is the last part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here once a year for a lifetime video kit this kit includes a minute vhs videotape that presents common misconceptions about mammography it tells of the benefits gains by the early detection of breast cancer jane pauley and phylicia rashad are the narrators kit includes a guide poster flyer and pamphlets on mammography this kit is available directly by writing to modern park street north st petersburg fl additional resources combined health information database chid a computerized bibliographic database developed and managed by agencies of the u s public health service it contains references to health information and health education resources the database provides bibliographic citations and abstracts for journal articles books reports pamphlets audiovisuals product descriptions hard to find information sources and health promotion and education programs under way in state and local health departments and other locations in addition chid provides source and availability information for these materials so that users may obtain them directly at present there are twenty one subfiles on chid the national cancer institute created the cancer patient education subfile in it serves as a resource for the chid user who is interested in identifying patient education programs for specific cancer patient populations as well as for the user who is trying to locate educational resources available for patient or family cancer education citations include the contact person at cancer centers so the user can follow up directly with the appropriate person to access chid check with your local library most medical school university hospital and public libraries subscribe to commercial database vendors hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april final report an integrated oncology workstation revised this book provides a conceptual overview of what a clinical information system for practicing oncologists might include a database of electronic patient chart records combined with access to a knowledge base of information resources such as pdq cancerlit and medline an integration of data and knowledge combined to create a clinical oncology workstation the concept was developed as a means to assist the oncologist and his or her office staff in the daily management of patient care and clinical trials this book can be obtained by contacting dr robert esterhay project officer computer communications branch building room bethesda md scientific information services of the national cancer institute this booklet from the international cancer information center icic describes each icic product or service including scientific journals journal of the national cancer institute and nci monographs specialized current awareness publications cancergrams and oncology overviews and online databases pdq and cancerlit to obtain copies of the booklet write to international cancer information center dept jjj national cancer institute bldg rm bethesda maryland or fax your request to hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april publications for patients available from the nci free copies of the following patient education materials are available in single copy or bulk by calling the nci s publication ordering service cancer cancer prevention chew or snuff is real bad stuff this brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders describes the health and social effects of using smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can be used as a poster clearing the air a guide to quitting smoking this pamphlet designed to help the smoker who wants to quit offers a variety of approaches to cessation pages diet nutrition cancer prevention the good news this booklet provides an overview of dietary guidelines that may assist individuals in reducing their risks for some cancers it identifies certain foods to choose more often and others to choose less often in the context of a total health promoting diet pages why do you smoke this pamphlet contains a self test to determine why people smoke and suggests alternatives and substitutes that can help them stop early detection breast exams what you should know this pamphlet provides answers to questions about breast cancer screening methods including mammography the medical checkup breast self examination and future technologies includes instructions for breast self examination pages cancer tests you should know about a guide for people and over this pamphlet describes the cancer tests important for people age and older it informs men and women of the exams they should be requesting when they schedule checkups with their doctors it provides a checklist for men and women to record when the cancer tests occur and it describes the steps to follow hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april should cancer be found pages do the right thing get a mammogram this brochure targets black women age or older it describes the importance of regular mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it states the nci guidelines for mammography once a year for a lifetime this brochure targets all women age or older it describes the importance of regular mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it states the nci guidelines for mammography questions and answers about breast lumps this pamphlet describes some of the most common noncancerous breast lumps and what can be done about them includes instructions for breast self examination pages questions and answers about choosing a mammography facility this brochure lists questions to ask in selecting a quality mammography facility also discusses typical costs and coverage testicular self examination this pamphlet contains information about risks and symptoms of testicular cancer and provides instructions on how to perform testicular self examination the pap test it can save your life this easy to read pamphlet tells women the importance of getting a pap test it explains who should request one how often it should be done and where to go to get a pap test general research reports in depth reports covering current knowledge of the causes and prevention symptoms detection and diagnosis and treatment of various types of cancer individual reports are available on the following topics bone marrow transplantation cancer of the colon and rectum cancer of the lung cancer of the pancreas melanoma hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral cancers the immune system how it works this booklet written at a high school level explains the human immune system for the general public it describes the sophistication of the body s immune responses the impact of immune disorders and the relation of the immune system to cancer therapies present and future pages what you need to know about cancer this series of pamphlets discusses symptoms diagnosis treatment emotional issues and questions to ask the doctor includes glossary of terms and other resources individual pamphlets are available on the following topics bladder bone brain breast cervix colon and rectum dysplastic nevi esophagus hodgkin s disease kidney larynx lung melanoma multiple myeloma non hodgkin s lymphoma oral cancers ovary pancreas prostate skin testis uterus patient education anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered advanced cancer living each day this booklet addresses coping with a terminal illness by discussing practical considerations for the patient the family and friends pages chemotherapy and you a guide to self help during treatment this booklet in question and answer format addresses problems and concerns of patients receiving chemotherapy emphasis is on explanation and self help pages eating hints recipes and tips for better nutrition during cancer treatment this cookbook style booklet includes recipes and suggestions for maintaining optimum nutrition during treatment all recipes have been tested pages facing forward a guide for cancer survivors this booklet presents a concise overview of important survivor issues including ongoing health needs psychosocial concerns insurance and employment easy to use format includes cancer survivors experiences practical tips recordkeeping forms and resources it is recommended for cancer survivors their family and friends pages patient to patient cancer clinical trials and you this minute videocassette provides simple information for patients and families about the clinical trials process produced in collaboration with the american college of surgeons commission on cancer questions and answers about pain control a guide for people with cancer and their families this booklet discusses pain control using both medical and nonmedical methods the emphasis is on explanation self help and patient participation this booklet is also available from the american cancer society pages radiation therapy and you a guide to self help during treatment this booklet addresses concerns of patients receiving forms of radiation therapy emphasis is on explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april taking time support for people with cancer and the people who care about them this sensitively written booklet for persons with cancer and their families addresses the feelings and concerns of others in similar situations and how they have coped pages what are clinical trials all about this booklet is designed for patients who are considering taking part in research for new cancer treatments it explains clinical trials to patients in easy to understand terms and gives them information that will help them decide about participating pages when cancer recurs meeting the challenge again this booklet details the different types of recurrence types of treatment and coping with cancer s return pages breast cancer education series breast biopsy what you should know this booklet discusses biopsy procedures it describes what to expect in the hospital and while awaiting a diagnosis pages breast cancer understanding treatment options this booklet summarizes the biopsy procedure and examines the pros and cons of various types of breast surgery it discusses lumpectomy and radiation therapy as primary treatment adjuvant therapy and the process of making treatment decisions pages mastectomy a treatment for breast cancer this booklet presents information about the different types of breast surgery it explains what to expect in the hospital and during the recovery period following breast cancer surgery breast self examination for mastectomy patients is also described pages after breast cancer a guide to followup care this booklet is for the woman who has completed treatment it explains the importance of checking for possible signs of recurring cancer by receiving regular mammograms getting breast exams from a doctor and continuing monthly breast self exams it offers advice for managing the physical and emotional side effects that may accompany surviving breast hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april cancer pages pediatric cancer education series help yourself tips for teenagers with cancer this magazine style booklet is designed to provide information and support to adolescents with cancer issues addressed include reactions to diagnosis relationships with family and friends school attendance and body image pages hospital days treatment ways this hematology oncology coloring book helps orient the child with cancer to hospital and treatment procedures pages managing your child s eating problems during cancer treatment this booklet contains information about the importance of nutrition the side effects of cancer and its treatment ways to encourage a child to eat and special diets pages talking with your child about cancer this booklet is designed for the parent whose child has been diagnosed with cancer it addresses the health related concerns of young people of different ages it suggests ways to discuss disease related issues with the child pages when someone in your family has cancer this booklet is written for young people whose parent or sibling has cancer it includes sections on the disease its treatment and emotional concerns pages young people with cancer a handbook for parents this booklet discusses the most common types of childhood cancer treatments and side effects and issues that may arise when a child is diagnosed with cancer offers medical information and practical tips gathered from the experience of others pages spanish language publications si desea hablar con un especialista en informacion sobre el cancer por favor llame al cancer cancer prevention hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april a time of change de nina a mujer this bilingual fotonovela was developed specifically for young women it discusses various health promotion issues such as nutrition no smoking exercise and pelvic pap and breast examinations pages datos sobre el habito de fumar y recomendaciones para dejar de fumar this bilingual pamphlet describes the health risks of smoking and tips on how to quit and how to stay quit pages guia para dejar de fumar this booklet is a full color self help smoking cessation booklet prepared specifically for spanish speaking americans it was developed by the university of california san francisco under an nci research grant pages early detection hagase la prueba pap hagalo hoy por su salud y su familia this bilingual brochure tells women why it is important to get a pap test it gives brief clear information about who needs a pap test where to go to get one and how often the pap test should be done hagase un mamograma una vez al ano para toda una vida this bilingual brochure describes the importance of mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it gives brief information about who is at risk for breast cancer how a mammogram is done and how to get one la prueba pap un metodo para diagnosticar cancer del cuello del utero this booklet in spanish answers questions about the pap test including how often it should be done significance of results and other diagnostic tests and treatments pages lo que usted debe saber sobre los examenes de los senos this booklet in spanish explains the importance of the three actions recommended by the nci to detect breast cancer as early as possible requesting regular mammography getting an annual breast exam from the doctor and performing a monthly breast self exam pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april preguntas y respuestas sobre la seleccion de un centro de mamografia this brochure lists questions and answers to ask in selecting a quality mammography facility patient education anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered datos sobre el tratamiento de quimioterapia contra el cancer this flyer in spanish provides a brief introduction to cancer chemotherapy pages el tratamiento de radioterapia guia para el paciente durante el tratamiento this booklet in spanish addresses the concerns of patients receiving radiation therapy for cancer emphasis is on explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids news summaries aids daily summary for april to april the centers for disease control and prevention cdc national aids clearinghouse makes available the following information as a public service only providing this information does not constitute endorsement by the cdc the cdc clearinghouse or any other organization reproduction of this text is encouraged however copies may not be sold copyright information inc bethesda md april absence of hiv transmission from an infected orthopedic surgeon journal of the american medical association vol no p von reyn c fordham the risk of hiv transmission from an hiv positive surgeon to patient is extremely low provided that the surgeon strictly adheres to universal infection control procedures write c fordham von reyn et al of the dartmouth hitchcock medical center in lebanon n h the researchers contacted former patients on whom an hiv positive orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures between january and june the orthopedic surgeon voluntarily withdrew from practice after testing positive for hiv a total of former patients underwent hiv testing representing percent of patients on whom the orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures during the year period patients were tested from each year and from each category of invasive procedure all patients were found to be negative for hiv by enzyme linked immunosorbent assay two former patients reported known hiv infection prior to surgery the examination of aids case registries and vital records neglected to detect cases of hiv infection among former surgical patients the estimated cost of the initial patient notification and testing was with the single most expensive activity being counseling and testing this accounted for percent of the total expense the patient notification and testing were conducted while maintaining the confidentiality of the orthopedic surgeon who was an active participant in the planning and execution of the study notifying patients of the infected surgeon s hiv status is both disruptive and expensive and is not routinely recommended the researchers conclude investigation of potential hiv transmission to the patients of an hiv infected surgeon journal of the american medical association vol hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april no p smith rogers audrey et al the risk of hiv transmission during surgery is so remote that it will be quantified only by gathering data from multiple methodologically similar investigations writes audrey smith rogers et al of the johns hopkins university school of medicine in baltimore md the researchers identified a total of persons in hospital databases who underwent invasive surgical procedures between and and for whom the hiv positive surgeon was listed as the operating surgeon the aids case registries were reviewed for all patients having undergone invasive procedures and death certificates were obtained among the patients were dead had no address had test results known and did not respond to the questionnaire no study patient name was found in reported aids case registries one newly detected hiv positive patient was determined to have been most probably infected in during a transfusion there was no hiv transmission in person hours of surgical exposure suggesting that hiv transmission to patients is unlikely to occur more frequently than once per person hours of surgical exposure the researchers determined there is no evidence to suggest that the surgeon failed to adhere to standard infection control guidelines over percent of the patients with invasive procedures chose to be tested and of those whose results were revealed only one person was found to be infected with hiv the study patient s infection was probably the result of a tainted blood transfusion received in as a result there is no evidence that the transmission of hiv from the hiv positive surgeon to any patient transpired the researchers conclude april drug concerns to share aids data new york times p c kolata gina a total of major pharmaceutical companies have decided in a highly unusual move to share aids drugs and information while the drugs are undergoing early clinical testing dr edward scolnick president of the merck research laboratory in rahway n j arranged the collaboration he said that cooperation between companies seemed increasingly significant as it had become clear that combinations of drugs were likely to be more effective in fighting hiv than any drug used alone the researchers are hopeful that hiv when faced with a combination of several drugs requiring mutation at different sites for resistance to develop will be unable to evolve all the mutations at the same time therefore several drugs taken together or one after the other could halt the spread of hiv currently the drug companies do not know what other drugs their competitors are developing the new agreement allows companies to routinely exchange animal data and safety data on new aids drugs an agreement like this will greatly facilitate hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april companies ability to choose the best drug combinations much faster and in a much more efficient way said scolnick he also said that the collaboration would not violate antitrust laws in creating the agreement merck spoke frequently to members of aids advocacy groups including act up dr daniel hoth director of the division on aids at the national institute of allergy and infectious disease said we re delighted to see the pharmaceutical industry take this step because we think that increasing the information flow will likely accelerate the discovery of better compounds for aids related stories wall street journal p b philadelphia inquirer p a usa today p b the next step in aids treatment nature vol no p maddox john although azt was found to be ineffective in prolonging the lives of people infected with hiv the findings do not indicate that azt should not be administered in people with full blown aids writes columnist john maddox azt has been used in the united states in asymptomatic hiv positive people on the basis that administration of the drug appeared to abate the decline of t cell counts however a report in the lancet demonstrated that azt should not be used early in the course of disease while the cd counts of the people given azt were consistently greater than those of patients receiving only placebo the first three years of follow up have shown that the proportions of people in the two groups progressing to overt aids or even to death were not significantly different at roughly percent the conclusions are that azt is not an effective aids drug in hiv infected individuals and that cd cell count may not be a reliable proxy for the progression to aids in infected people but nothing is implied by the study of the utility of azt in the treatment of those in whom symptoms have already appeared there is no case for abandoning that treatment at least on the evidence now available it is much more alarming that the cd count has proven to be an unreliable mark of the efficacy of drug treatment in hiv infection aids researchers should acknowledge hiv is alive from the beginning of infection and turn it into a workable assay of the progress of disease the general application of such an assay will probably in itself provide a better understanding of the pathogenesis of aids concludes maddox infective and anti infective properties of breastmilk from hiv infected women lancet vol no p van de perre philippe et al a vaccine preparation inducing a persistent immune response of the igm type in the mother s body fluids could be valuable to prevent transmission of hiv from mother to child write philippe van de perre et al of the hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national aids control program in kigali rwanda the researchers hypothesized that transmission of hiv through breastmilk could be favored by the presence of infected cells by deficiency of anti infective substances in breastmilk or both factors a total of hiv infected women were enrolled at delivery in kigali rwanda milk samples were collected days months and months post partum hiv igg secretory iga and igm were assayed by western blot for the latter two after removal of igg with protein g in the day and month samples the researchers sought viral genome in milk cells by double polymerase chain reaction with three sets of primers gag pol and env at days months and months post partum hiv specific igg was detected in percent percent and percent of breastmilk samples iga in percent percent and percent and igm in percent percent and percent in children who survived longer than months the risk of infection was associated with lack of persistence of igm and iga in their mothers milk the presence of hiv infected cells in the milk days post partum was strongly predictive of hiv infection in the child by both univariate and multivariate analysis the combination of hiv infected cells in breastmilk and a defective igm response was the strongest predictor of infection igm and iga anti hiv in breastmilk may protect against postnatal transmission of hiv the researchers conclude april firms to share aids research in global venture journal of commerce p a a total of fifteen u s and european pharmaceutical companies announced tuesday they will swap drug supplies and information on early stage aids research to hasten the search for combination therapies to fight hiv infection and aids the companies said the unusual move resulted primarily from the increasing concentration of aids research on combination therapies since realizing that hiv is likely to develop resistance to every individual aids drug edward scolnick president of merck co research laboratories led the collaborative effort that took a year of negotiations to come together said participants in addition to merck the other companies involved in the inter company collaboration for aids drug development are bristol myers squibb co burroughs wellcome glaxo inc hoffman la roche eli lilly co pfizer inc smithkline beecham ab astra du pont merck syntex inc boehringer ingelheim miles inc and sigma tau the participants said that all companies involved in aids drug development they were aware of had joined the collaboration and that any company actively involved in hiv anti viral development may participate scolnick said the collaborators would most likely meet every couple of months for a daylong scientific meeting where they will review for one another their preclinical hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and early clinical data the american foundation for aids research amfar was pleased with the news of the collaboration which it hopes will lead to the development of drug combinations that will reduce viral resistance related story financial times p guidance over hiv infected health care workers lancet vol no p horton richard the united kingdom s department of health recently followed the advice of aids experts that there is no scientific reason for routine hiv testing among health care workers following recent highly publicized reports of health professionals who contracted hiv the department issued revised guidelines on the management of such cases dr kenneth calman chief medical officer said doctors dentists nurses and other health care workers have an ethical duty to seek advice if they have been exposed to hiv infection including if appropriate diagnostic hiv testing he said infected health care workers should not perform invasive procedures that carry even a remote risk of exposing patients to the virus the guidelines end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	frequent nosebleeds a from some of the replies to my original posting it s evident that some a people do not secrete enough mucous to keep their nose lining protected include small amounts of hot spicy foods with your meals it s not a cure but many people find it helpful to create extra mucus you may also consider taking a few drops of iodine in juice or water consult your doctor first which is available otc in canada if you have a sedentary lifestyle exercising sometimes helps a from environmental influences ie dry air but i ve had no responses a from anyone with experience with rutin is there another newsgroup that a might have specifics on herbal remedies a a robert allison i tried to e mail you but our board is having internet problems so i m not sure whether you got the information on rutin or not rutin is not a herb but part of the bioflavonoid complex you should generally not take rutin by itself but take the whole bioflavonoid complex instead if you don t and there are some exceptions to that you ll eventually create a hesperidin deficiency which is the other major component of the bioflavonoid complex i found out the hard way years ago when i recommended rutin after it showed deficient in patients who were not deficient in hesperidin be fore a later retest almost always showed a subsequent deficiency in hesperidin which from then on made me always add bioflavonoids to anyone that had very low levels of rutin most of the time people are equally low in rutin and hesperidin so there is really no reason to take rutin by itself but use the whole bioflavonoid complex instead i have several thousand patients taking them with many claiming that they had been helped with hemorrhoids varicose veins chronic nose bleeds aneurysms gastro intestinal bleeding due to drugs etc one patient in desperation took a whole bottle s in one day for his painful bleeding hemorrhoids without any ill effects they are also non toxic in very high amounts that s why they can be safely recommended if you are allergic to citrus fruit they are made from their peels pine bark sources are available as well about of patients tested show a bioflavonoid deficiency with the average daily dosage needed being about mg for major complaints mg day is common in case they cannot be taken because of their size and taste they are big and they don t taste that great a product made from pine bark extract gives you the same effect and the tablets are quite small and taste much better however the cost is about seven times higher for the equivalent effect one mg tablet of the pine bark extract gives you about the same effect as mg of bioflavonoids the name for the pine bark product is pycnogenol some canadian brands carrying bioflavonoids are quest mg big bitter not chewable swiss herbal mg smooth easier swallowing jamieson mg medium bitter chewable sisu mg pycnogenol small easy swallowing give them a try and see what happens and good luck ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton eating radium has strange results tom said brightly rosereader p entered at rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	artificial intelligence in medicine if you have any information on artificial intelligence in medicine then i would appreciate it if you could mail me with whatever it is the informations is needed for a project thank you ian ian jukes bsc computer science hons year the university of brighton janet e mail ipj uk ac bton unix ipj uk ac bton vms
sci.med	sleep in hospitals was re euse of haldol in elderly in article yfqmlek iv co l andrew cmu edu you say i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved speaking from experience one doesn t need drugs to become disoriented during hospital stays i was in hosp for days in late jan what with general noise at all hours of night staff coming every time i turned over or whatever to check me out i didn t get much sustained sleep at night spent days groggy dozing and all it was from my perspective was that i was tired bobm let s reinvent hospital organization s
sci.med	re localized fat reduction due to exercise question in apr mnemosyne cs du edu hchung nyx cs du edu writes i was just wondering if exercises specific to particular regions of the body such as thighs will basically only tone the thighs or if fat from other parts of the body such as breasts would be affected just as much there are two different mechanisms here toning of muscles and reduction of fat exercises specific to particular muscles will tone only those muscles exercised example look at differences in arm circumferences between pitching arms and non pitching arms in major league pitchers however if exercise also leads to reduction of body fat the loss of body fat will be equally distributed over the entire body there is no way to spot reduce body fat other than surgically through liposuction distribution of body fat is genetically determined sometimes a very flabby muscle will look like fat so when that muscle gains some muscle tone it may appear as though the fat is changing into muscle but really fat and muscle tissues are totally separate and one does not ever change into the other ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy
sci.med	re krillean photography poor person s kirlian photography try this at home hold your hand up to a cold window look closely at the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory to explain the effect
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci hmm this is certainly among the things i would refer to as quack therapy and would tend to refer to any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed or not as a quack there are unethical behaviors such as ordering unneccessary tests to increase fees which i would not lable as quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a quack david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	a good place for back surgery hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot thanks in advance gary sheutter at t bell labs
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article ravpeinnah gap caltech edu ken isis cns caltech edu ken miller writes so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other i don t have any evidence against water from lourdes curing ms i m sure there is anecdotal evidence that it does do you really think that in the absence of a double blind study i should be indifferent to the hypothesis that water from lourdes cures ms for what it s worth i know of only one double blind study of nystatin for candida hypersensitivity syndrome it was published in the new england journal i think and showed no benefit on systemic symptoms though i think it reduced vaginal yeast infections not surprisingly as i recall the yeast crowd had some major objections to the study though i don t remember what they were david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk hi thought i d add something to the conversation my girlfriend used to work in a lab studying different natural carcinogens she mentioned once about the cancerous effect of barbecued food basically she said that if you eat barbecued foods with strawberries a natural carcinogen the slight carcinogenic properties of both cancel out each other jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo ca jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo ca
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy greg no flame intended but i think you just missed one of the rare attempts of humor in sci skeptic krillean against kirilian get it btw i think you re a bit of base yourself since to my knowledge the electromagnetic field around a stone is rather abscent but still a stone has a nice aura on the kirilian photographs don t remember excactly but corona discharge i think is a more fitting expression than aura think you ll find something on this in the skeptic faq cheers jostein
sci.med	re ocd this is to followup my previous reply on this topic which it has been pointed out to me might have been dangerously misleading in two spots i stated that psychotherapy meaning talking therapy and so on was used to treat obsessive compulsive disorder which though sometimes true is misleading it is not often found effective particularly by itself primary treatment today usually consists at least in part of drug therapy the most current theories of this condition attribute it to more to biological causes than psychological in places where this distinction becomes important i mentioned that the dsm iiir mentions impulses as a possible diagnostic marker however this might look like something people associate with psychotic conditions uncontrollable or unpredictable behaviors which is not the case with ocd one of the diagnostic criteria of ocd is that the individual can and does suppress some of their impulses although they are an unending source of anxiety the obsessive thoughts and ritualistic actions usually associated with ocd are most frequently very mundane and predictable closer to a superstitious nature than a dangerous nature for the most part some references one non technical and several technical that someone was kind enough to supply for me but was unable to post themself the boy who couldn t stop washing by judith rapaport technical refs pharmacotherapy of o c disorder donna m jermain and lynn crismon pharmacotherapy epidemiology of ocd seteven a rasmussen and jane eisen j clin psychiatry suppl the waking nightmare an overview of ocd judith l rapoport j clin psychiatry suppl absence of placebo response in ocd matig r mavissakalian bruce jones stephen olson j nerv ment disease vol no and thanks very much to those who supplied constructive criticism to my first post on ocd i hope this helps clarify the parts that were misleading kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought olliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rgnn lli fnnews fnal gov dh fncrd fnal gov don husby writes poor person s kirlian photography try this at home hold your hand up to a cold window look closely at the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory to explain the effect advanced kirlian photography try this at home too get a camera have your subject face you with his her back to the sun take photo observe the glow behind their silhouetted image on the photo invent crackpot theory to explain the effect john mechalas i m not an actor but mechalas gn ecn purdue edu i play one on tv aero engineering purdue university include disclaimer h
sci.med	re mind machines in article c snww ga tripos com homer tripos com webster homer writes i recently learned about these devices that supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies in their users simply by wearing them the principle underlying these devices is a well establish principle in psychology called entrainment whereby external sensory stimuli influence gross electrical patterns of brain function they are experimental in that people experiment with them and they are not widely if at all used in medicine for therapeutic purposes given the exception of tens and similar units used for external electrical stimulation usually for pain relief not really a light and sound machine they are not experimental in the sense of a specific medical category to that effect as with experimental drugs as the fda does not specifically regulate medical devices in the way it does pharmaceuticals i would think that if they work as reported they would be incredibly useful there are few reliable studies of therapeutic or enhancement effects for mind machines other than those relaxation related effects found with meditation or self hypnosis as well reported benefits are mostly anecdotal and subjective so far so it s hard to generalize about their potential value a pretty good general non technical introduction to a wide variety of these devices may be found in would the buddha wear a walkman some interesting background material names of suppliers and capsule reviews of specific equipment do these mind machines aka light and sound machines work can they induce alpha theta and or delta waves in a person wearing them what research if any has been done on them could they be used in lieu of a tranquilizer or are they just another bit of quackery a more important question might be whether they have enough additional value to be worth investing in biofeedback was found to be a legitimate and reliable effect experimentally under certain conditions in that it demonstrated that we can influence physiological processes previously considered purely autonomic but never panned out as a particularly valuable therapeutic tool because of the skill level required and the subtlety and temporary nature of the effects in most cases maybe someone else has more there used to be a whole mailing list devoted to mind machines somewhere on the net web homer homer tripos com kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought olliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article c krl t dartvax dartmouth edu oldman coos dartmouth edu prakash das writes in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer julie it doesn t necessarily follow that you should use it msg or something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic to it for example you might not be allergic to animal fats and like their taste yet it doesn t follow that you should be using them regularly msg might have other bad or good i am not up on knowledge of msg effects on your body in the long run maybe that s reason enough not to use it perhaps i should quit eating mushrooms soya beans and brie cheese which all have msg in them it occurs naturally i m not going to quit eating something that i like just because it might cause me trouble later or causes problems in some people i would much rather avoid stress by not worrying over what goes in my mouth and not spending every day reading conflicting reports of what is good bad for you i may eat some things in quantities that may not be good for me fine i ve made my decision and i don t think it s appropriate for anyone to try to convert me it s for your own good are the most obnoxious and harmful words imo in the english or any other language altho your example of the ulcer is funny it isn t an appropriate comparison at all i think it is i get tired of people saying don t eat x because it s bad well x may not be bad for everyone and even if it is so what give people all the information but don t ram your decisions down their throats julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rgo b et hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci hmm this is certainly among the things i would refer to as quack therapy and would tend to refer to any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed or not as a quack there are unethical behaviors such as ordering unneccessary tests to increase fees which i would not lable as quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a quack david rind one of the responsibilities of a licensed physician is to read the medical literature to keep up with changes in medical practice all the clamor over laetril resulted in the nci spending quite a bit of money on clinical trials which proved to me anyway that laetril was ineffective against cancer a physician who continued to use it when better more effective treatments are available may deserve to be called a quack anti fungals are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice he deals with critical care patients where fungal infection systemic is a real problem and just because he tries to keep good bacteria in his patients does not mean that all physicians do this i think that aspergillis is more likely to be found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use the problem we have here david is proof that gi discomfort can be caused by a candida bloom the arguement is that without proof no action is warrented medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty b
sci.med	cs gas and allergic response ques this question derives from the waco incident could cs gas particles create an allergic response which would result in laryngospasm and asphyxiation especially in children dnc in ok osu com will disavow my opinion and my existence if necessary
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg no flame intended but you have no discernible sense of humor what bill wrote was intended to be funny it s called a joke greg look into it besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian mark meyer mmeyer dseg ti com texas instruments inc plano tx every day jerry junkins is grateful that i don t speak for ti you have triggered primary defense mechanism blast affirmative
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article c sqv edb acsu buffalo edu sfegus ubvm cc buffalo edu wrote in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes an odd exception to the rule seems to be the product known as gumbo file this is nothing more than coarsely ground dried sassafras leaves this is not only a natural product but a natural product still in its natural form so maybe that s how they evade delany or maybe a special exemption was made to appease powerful louisiana democrats one possible reason is that file is made with sassafras leaves while root beer was made with sassafras bark or root bark the leaves contain either no or less saffrole than the bark there is also some sort of treatment which putatively removes saffrole from sassafras products i have some concentrated sassafras tea extract which is claimed to have the saffrole removed i think what we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be illegal to commercially produce sell food with carcinogenic substances it is not illegal for people to do such to their own food smoking etc is this true well the last time that i went to the store to buy sassafras bark to make root beer there was a sign saying that it wasn t sold for human consumption also when i asked the person if they had wild cherry bark and wintergreen bark she made a point of telling me that i couldn t buy sassafras for human consumption i find the fact that some people reckless enough to step into an automobile live in fear of dropping dead because of a pork rib quite funny in a sick way eric pepke internet pepke gw scri fsu edu supercomputer computations research institute mfenet pepke fsu florida state university span scri pepke tallahassee fl bitnet pepke fsu disclaimer my employers seldom even listen to my opinions meta disclaimer any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers
sci.med	re mind machines i use a zygon mind machine as bought in the usa last year although it s no wonder cure for what ail s you it is however very good at stopping you thinking sound strange well suppose you re tired and want to go to bed sleep but your head is full of niggling problems to resolve you lay in the bed and quickly they all come to the surface churning around from one unresolved thing to the next and then back again been there bought the t shirt i slip on the zygon and select a soothing pattern of light sound and quickly i just can t concentrate on the previous stuff your brain s cache kinda get s flushed and you start on a whole new set of stuff a useful addition is the facility to feed the output of a tape player or cd through the box i use new age elevator muzak to enhance the overall effect deffo better than a pill cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk i m pink bournemouth uk cis radio g hoi therefore i m spam
sci.med	patti duke s problem does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through in her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form of chemical imbalance that triggered these problems i recall that she wrote a book about her troubles does someone have the title of that book
sci.med	tick fever aka rocky mtn spotted any rocky mountain spotted fever experts out there the doctor thinks a friend might have this the question is doesn t the tick have to bite you you frequently find a tick crawling on you after a walk in the woods around here but you tend to notice it before it bites you pulling one out of your skin is something you re not likely to forget can you get the fever without it biting you do they sometimes bite you and then let go so you don t realize you were bitten i know they will let go once they ve had their fill but you certainly would notice this arggh so how do you get the fever if you never pulled a tick off yourself as opposed to finding one merely crawling on you john eyles jge cs unc edu
sci.med	chelation therapy does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta my uncle has emphesema and a doctor wants to try it on him we are wondering if is there any evidence edta chelation therapy is beneficial for his condition or any condition what possible side effects are there how can they be mimimized please respond via e mail to rme cornell edu thanks renee
sci.med	re patti duke s problem in article apr hemlock cray com n cray com writes does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through in her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form of chemical imbalance that triggered these problems i recall that she wrote a book about her troubles does someone have the title of that book she s published two books about her manic depressive illness call me anna the autobiography of patty duke patty duke and kenneth turan bantam books and a brilliant madness living with manic depressive illness patty duke and gloria hochman bantam books barbara
sci.med	re annual inguinal hernia repair in article jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc avdms msfc nasa gov j porter clark wrote synopsis young man with inguianl hernia on one side repaired now has new hernia on other side what gives he asks and he continues of course my wife thinks it s from sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news there is the possibility that there is some degree of constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements the classic problems that are supposed to be looked for in someone with a hernia are constipation chronic cough colon cancer and you re not too young for that and sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news good luck with your surgery steve holland
sci.med	re heat shock proteins by the way ms olmstead dna is not degraded in the stomach nor under ph of its degraded in the duodenum under approx neutral ph by dnaase enzymes secreted by the pancreas my point check your facts before yelling at other people for not doing so just a friendly suggestion aaj
sci.med	celery and hypertension somewhere or other i read that when a person of chinese heritage was told that he had high blood pressure he responded by eating celery sorry i don t recall the dosage apparently this is supposed to work in reducing hypertension can anyone out there verify this and if it does work does anyone know the appropriate amounts and possible side effects thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article icbal asuacad bitnet icbal asuacad bitnet writes you might look for an allergy doctor in your area who uses sublingual drops instead of shots for treatment you are given a small bottle of antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes my this homeopathic remedies i tried the dander one for a month drops three times a day i didn t notice any change whats so ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed a difference for me this treatment is more expensive because my insurance will cover tradiitional medicine
sci.med	precocious puberty am looking for network access to recent research into treatments for precocious puberty if you know of specifics would appreciate email i have plenty of general textbook type references have a niece whose daughter is afflicted the mother is an rn and has done a rather exhaustive search of printed material pls email suggestions to lumensa lub lamar edu thanx dale parish orange texas is the surface of a planet the lamar s token perpetual student proper place for a developing vox rec dat industrial civilization
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics i guess i m still not clear on what the term candida bloom means but certainly it is well known that thrush superficial candidal infections on mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing to do with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since a recent article randomized controlled trial of oral yogurt on reducing vaginal candidiasis i ve mentioned to a number of patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces of yogurt daily it turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn t what the systemic yeast syndrome is about and has nothing to do with the quack therapies that were being discussed there is some evidence that attempts to reinoculate the gi tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don t seem to be very helpful in reducing diarrhea but i don t think anyone would view this as a quack therapy david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	resound hearing aids and others i have a fairly severe high frequency hearing loss a recent rough test showed a gently sloping loss to db down at cps then it falls off a cliff to dbs down from cps on this type of loss is difficult to fit i am currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep me roughly functional but leave a lot to be desired recently i had an opportunity to test the widex q behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended to be customized for different hearing situations and can be reprogramed i found them to be a definite improvement over my current aids and was about to go ahead with them until another local outfit advertised a free trial of another programmable system called resound unfortunately i was only able to try the resound aids in their office for about minutes and i couldn t compare them head to head with the widex nevertheless it did appear to me that they were superior and i was impressed by what i was able to read about the theory behind them which i will give in a separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided to go ahead and get the resound even though he had purchased the widex only months ago the problem is that the resound aids are about twice as expensive as the widex and other programmable aids i could take a trip to europe on the difference being a lover of bargains and hating to spend money i am having a hard time persuading myself to go with the resounds i would appreciate any opinions on this and other hearing aids and projections about when and if i might see improvements in technology that aren t quite so expensive rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university of oregon eugene or usa
sci.med	re discussions on alt psychoactives in article fpzy s wbom vn u andrew cmu edu charles d nichols cn p andrew cmu edu writes from herzog sierra lbl gov hanan herzog subject discussions on alt psychoactives date apr gmt could the people discussing recreational drugs such as mj lsd mdma etc take their discussions to alt drugs their discussions will receive greatest contribution and readership there the people interested in strictly smart drugs i e nootropics should post to this group the two groups alt drugs alt psychoactives have been used interchangably lately i do think that alt psychoactives is a deceiving name alt psychoactives is supposedly the smart drug newsgroup according to newsgroup lists on the usenet should we establish an alt nootropics or alt sdn smart drugs nutrients i have noticed some posts in sci med nutrition regarding smart nutrients we may lower that groups burden as well i beg to disagree with you on this subject if i recall correctly alt drugs was being flodded by posts like how do i grow mj how do i use a bong wow man i just had the coolest trip etc there were quite a few people out there who were versed in pharmacology and biology who wanted to discuss centrally active substabces at a higher level without all the other crap filling the bandwidth i would suggest that you proceed to create a newsgroup dedicated to nootropics if you must have one dedicated to them and leave alt psychoactives to the discussion of psychoactives including nootropics which are but a small portion of the realm of centrally active substances i was wondering if a group called sci pharmacology would be relevent this would be used for a more formal discussion about pharmacological issues pharmacodynamics neuropharmacology etc just an informal proposal i don t know anything about the net politics for adding a newsgroup etc more alt psychoactives stuff deleted marc andersom spot colorado edu
sci.med	resound hearing aid theory as i understand it the following is based on copies i was given of some articles published in hearing instruments i would appreciate any comments about this and other new technology for hearing aids the resound system was developed on the basis of some research at at t and appears to take a different approach from other aids it appears to me that a new programmable aid like the widex just uses a more flexible and programmable version of the classical approach of amplifying some parts of the spectrum more than others and adding some compression to try and help out in noisy situations the major difference in the resound approach is that it divides the spectrum into low and high frequencies splitting point is programmable apparently based on the fact that lots of vowel information can be found in the low frequencies while the important consonant information unfortunately for me is in the high frequencies the two bands then are treated with different compression schemes which are programable they have also developed a new fitting algorythm that builds on what they call abnormal growth of loudness this latter is interesting and fits my own personal experience though i think the phrase is missleading what appears to be the case is that as you exceed the minimum threshold for a person with hearing loss the deficit becomes progresslively less compared to normals and by the time you reach the too loud point the sensitivity curves appear to converge this means that if you just boost all sound levels you are overloading at the high end for people with hearing losses hence what you want is progressively less amplification as the signal get closer to the maximum tolerable point you want to boost low volume sounds more than high and do so potentially differently for the low and high frequency parts of the spectrum specially for someone like me who is relatively normal up to cps and then falls off a cliff aids with simple compressors don t descriminate between energy in the low and high frequencies and can therefor compress useful high frequency information because of high volume of low frequency components particularly impressive was the resound performance with whispered speech and in simulated restaurant noise situations rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university of oregon eugene or usa
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice nor is it mine what i tried to explain to marty was that it is clearly understood that antibiotic exposure is a risk factor for fungal infections which is not the same as saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like a secret known only to veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated a urinary tract infection knowns this at some centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed at retaining good anaerobic flora in an attempt to prevent fungal colonization in this soon to be high risk group i also use lactobacillus to treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may be in part due to alterations in gut flora however it is not part of my routine practice to reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics i have seen no data on this practice preventing or treating fungal infections in at risk patients whether or not it is a logical extension from the available observations i ll leave to those of you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations in the absence of clinical trials one place such therapy has been described is in treating particularly recalcitrant cases of c difficile colitis not a fungal infection there are case reports of using stool ie someone elses enemas to repopulate the patients flora don t try this at home not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that it isn t at least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake seems like this is an excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom a euphemism for no data and doing a good clinical trial like au dismukes w e wade j s lee j y dockery b k hain j d ti a randomized double blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments so n engl j med dec p psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms p less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions in women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation of long term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here no jon noring was not surprised at this negative trial since they didn t use sporanox despite crook s recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn t avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost
sci.med	pms can it be prevented by a diet change this question came up in sci med nutrition and i m posting my answer here only medical schools in the u s teach courses on human nutrition we have already seen what a lack of nutrition education can do when candida and kidney stones present themselves to the medical community i think that the best example of where u s medicine is really missing the mark when it comes to a knowledge of nutrition is pms so many women and their husbands suffer from this disorder that it is really criminal that most physicians in the u s are not taught that pms is primarily caused by diet and diet changes can prevent it from ever happpening before shooting your flames read the entire article and then decide if flaming is justified from a poster in sci medi nutrition in a psychological anthropology course i am taking we got sidetracked onto a short conversation about pms some rumors shared by several of the students included ideas that vitamin levels sugar intake and caffeine intake might affect pms symptoms is there any data on this or is it just so much hooey many thanks michael i ve wanted to reply to this post ever since i saw it but i got side tracked with candida pms is a lot like candida blooms most physicians don t recognize it as a specific disease entity here is everything that you would ever want to know about pms premenstrual syndrome has been divided into four specific subgroups pmt a anxiety pmt d depression anxiety depression irritability forgetfulness insomnia confusion depression lethargy pmt c craving pmt h hyperhydration craving for sweets weight gain increased appetite breast congestion and tenderness sugar ingestion causes abdominal bloating and tenderness headache edema of the face and extremities palpitations fatigue or fainting pmt a is characterized by elevated blood estrogen levels and low progesterone levels during the luteal phase of a women s cycle pmt c is caused by the ingestion of large amounts of refined simple carbohydrates during the luteal phase of a women s cycle there is increased glucose tolerance with a flat glucose curve after oral glucose challenge the metabolic findings believed to be responsible for pmt c are a low magnesium and a low prostaglandin e this condition of hypoglycemia is not unique to pms but there are a number of different causes of hypoglycemia magnesium and pge seem to be specific to pms hypoglycemia a am j psychiatry unrefined complex carbohydrate should be substituted for sugar magnesium supplementation and alpha linoleic acid supplementation increased to of the total calories using safflower oil or evening primrose oil as sources of alpha linoleic acid pmt d is characterized by elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase of a women s cycle another cause of pmt d has been found to be lead toxicity in women without elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase effect of metal ions on the binding of estridol to human endometrial cystol fertil steril pmt h is associated with water and salt retention along with an elevated serum aldosterone level salt restriction b magnesium and vitamin e for breast tenderness have all been effective in treating pmt h this general discussion of the pms syndromes came form a management of the premenstrual tension sundromes rational for a nutritional approach a year in nutritional medicine j bland ed keats publishing b nutritional factors in the etiology of premenstrual tension syndromes j reprod med c premenstrual tension prob obstet gynecol treatment has traditionally involved progesterone administration if you can find a doctor who will treat you for pms just about as hard as finding one that will treat you for candida blooms while progesterone will work supplementation with vitamins and minerals works even better there really has been an awful lot of research done on pms much more than candida blooms many of these studies have been what are called experimental controlled studies the type of rigorous clinical studies that doctors like to see done here are a few of these studies carbohydrate experimental controlled study effect of a low fat high carbohydrate diet on symptoms of cyclical mastopathy lancet pts with severe persistent cyclical mastopathy of at least years duration were randomly selected to receive specific training to reduce dietary fat to of total calories and increase complex carbohydrate ingestion or given general dietary advise with no training after months there was a significant reduction in the severity of the breast swelling and tenderness in the trained group as reported by self reported symptoms as well as physical exams which quantitated the degree of breast swelling tenderness and nodularity vitamin a experimental controlled study the use of vitamin a in premenstrual tension acta obstet gynecol scand pts with severe recurring pms received to iu vitamin a daily or a placebo serum retinol levels were monitored and high dose supplementation was discontinued when evidence of toxicity occured serum retinol above ug ml the intent of the study was to load the liver up with vitamin a and get a normal pool size iu to iu and then see if this normal vitamin a pool could prevent pms getting the high dose vitamin a had complete remission of the symptoms of pms only getting the placebo reported getting complete relief of pms sysmptoms of the vitamin a treated group reported no improvement in pms symptoms experimental controlled study premenstrual tension treated with vitamin a j clinical endocrinology pts received iu of vitamin a daily starting on day of their cycle with supplementation continuing until the onset of pms symptoms after months all pts reported a significant improvement in pms symptoms vitamin a supplementation was stopped once evidence of toxicity was demonstrated and all pts were followed for one year after high dose vitamin a supplementation was stopped pms symptoms did not reoccur in any of these pts for upto one year after the vitamin a supplementation was stopped most americans do not have a normal store of vitamin a in their liver these studies and several others were designed to see if getting a normal store of vitamin a into the liver could eliminate pms of all the vitamins given for pms vitamin a b and vitamin e vitamin a has shown the best single effect this is probably because vitamin a is involved in steroid estrogen progesterone metabolism in the liver getting your liver full of vitamin a seems to be one of the best things that you can do to prevent the symptoms of pms but vitamin a is toxic and you don t want to be trying to do this without being seen by a physician who can monitor you for vitamin a toxicity vitamin b experimental double blind crossoverr study pyridoxine vitamin b and the premenstrual syndrome a randomized crossover trial j r coll gen pract women aged with moderate to severe pms randomly received mg b daily or placebo after months the groups were switched and followed for another months b had a significant effect on the emotional aspects of pms depression irritability and tiredness other symptoms of pms were not significanttly affected by b supplementation experimental double blind study the efects of vitamin b supplementation on premenstrual sysmptoms obstet gynecol pts with moderate to severe pms received mg b daily or placebo for months analysis of convergence showed that b significantly improved premenstrual symptoms related to the autonomic nervous system dizziness and vomiting as well as behavior changes poor mental performance decreased social interaction anxiety depression and water retention were not improved by b supplementation vitamin b is below the rda for both american men and women birth control pills and over different drugs increase the b requirement in man women on birth control pills should be supplemented with mg of b per day the dose should be increased if symptoms of pms appear dr david r rubinow who heads the biological psychiatry branch of nimh was quoted in clin psychiatry news december as stating that b should be considered the first line drug for pms over progesterone and if the patient does not respond then other treatments should be tried vitamin b can be toxic nerve damage if consumed in doses of mg or more each day vitamin e experimental double blind study efficacy of alpha tocopherol in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome j reprod med pts received iu vitamin e daily for cycles or a placebo vitamin e treated pts had who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms weight gain and breast tenderness while the placebo group had who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms the vitamin e group reported that had a significant reduction in anxiety versus for the placebo group for depression the vitamin e group had with a significant decrease in depression compared with for the placebo group experimental double blind study the effect of alpha tocopherol on premenstrual symptomalogy a double blind study j am coll nutr pts with benign breast disease and pmt randomly received vitamin e at iu iu or iu daily or placebo after months of supplementation iu of vitamin e or higher significantly improved pmt a and pmt c the iu dose was needed to significantly improve pmt d no dose of vitamin e significantly improved pmt h other studies have shown that a higher vitamin e doses will relieve pmt h symptoms magnesium experimental double blind study magnesium prophylaxis of menstrual migraine effects on itracellular magnesium headache pts with perimenstrual headache received mg daily of magnesium as magnesium pyrrolidone carboxylic acid or a placebo treatment was started on the th day of the cycle and continued until menstruation after months the pain total index was significantly lower in the magnesium group magnesium treatment was also assocoiated with a significant reduction in the menstrual distress questionnaire scores pretreatment magnesium levels in lymphocytes and polymorphonuclear leukocytes were significantly lower in this group of pts compared to control women who did not suffer from pms after treatment magnesium levels in these cells was raised into the normal range experimental double blind study oral magnesium successfully relieves premenstrual mood changes obstet gynecol pts aged randomly received either magnesium carboxylic acid mg of mg per day or a placebo from the th day of the cycle to the onset of the menstrual flow after cycles both groups received magnesium the menstrual distress questionnaire score of the cluster pain was significantly reduced during the second cycle month for the magnesium treatment group as well as the placebo group once they were switched to magnesium supplementation in addition the total score on the menstrual distress questionnaire was significantly decreased by magnesium supplementation the authors suggest that magnesium supplemenation should become a routine treatment for the mood changes that occur during pms there are numerous observational studies that have been published in the medical literature which also suggest that pms is primarily a disorder that arises out of a hormone imbalance that is dietary in nature but since observational studies are considered by most physicians in sci med to be anecdotal in nature i have not bothered to cite them there are also over a half dozen good experimental studies that have been done on multivitamin and mineral supplementation to prevent pms i ve chosen the best specific studies on individual vitamins and minerals to try to point out that pms is primarily a nutritional disorder but doctors don t recognize nutritional disorders unless they can see clinical pathology beri beri pellagra scruvy etc pms is probably the best reason why every doctor being trained in the u s should get a good course on human nutrition pms is really only the tip if the iceberg when it comes to nutritional disorders it s time that medicine woke up and smelled the roses here s some studies which show the importance in multivitamin mineral supplementation and or diet change in preventing pms experimental study effect of a nutritional programme on premenstrual syndrome a retrospective analysis complement med res pts were given dietary instructions and supplemented with optivite r plus additional vitamin c vitamin e magnesium zinc and primrose oil the dietary instructions were to take the supplements and switch to a low fat complex carbohydrate diet on a retrospective analysis of the pts reported an improvement in their pms symptoms with of the sample stating that they no longer suffered from pms experimental double blind study role of nutrition in managing premenstrual tension syndromes j reprod med a low fat high complex carbohydrate diet along with optivite supplementation significantly decreased pms scores compared with diet change and placebo after months on the experimental program the vitamin mineral supplementated group had significantly decreased estradiol and increased progesterone in serum during the midlutel phase of their cycle experimental double blind study clinical and biochemical effects of nutritional supplementation on the premenstrual syndrome j reprod med pts randomly given optivite tablets per day or a placebo the treated groups showed a significant decrease in pms symptoms compared to the placebo another group of pts got optivite tablets per day or placebo for this second group of patients no significant effect of supplementation on pms symptoms was observed martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine w th st tulsa ok without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance
sci.med	re help reflux esophagitis please post your results a close friend has this condition and has asked these same questions
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur ohboy here we go again and one wonders why the american education system is in such abysmal shape
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer what is the likely hood of conception if sperm is deposited just outside the vagina ie chance j e n n i f e r s c h e i b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school of nursing purdue university
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge that is a dry turtle that turtle is not moist ezra story a student at rit and eas ultb isc rit edu his trusty mailing address
sci.med	thermogenics hi i m an avid dieter and the new miracle drug seems to involve thermo genics the drug is claimed to stimulate the brown fat to burn food creating eat as opposed to the fat being stored there are all sorts of warnings about fevers elevated blood pressure and heart rate ect the silver lining is that apparently some weight loss does not require a change in diet is this possible are the pills dangerous or just hoaxes karen
sci.med	theophylline ephedrine and water bio availability does anyone know if either theophylline or ephedrine or the two in combination can reduce the body s ability to make use of available water i had kind of an odd experience on a group hike recently becoming dehyrated after about hours of rigorous hiking despite having brought gallons of water c liters i drank close to twice as much as anyone else and no one else was dehydrated i don t think general physical condition was an issue since i was in at least the middle of the pack in terms of general stamina so far as i could tell it may be that i just plain need more water than most people but i am wondering if theophylline and or ephedrine might be aggravating things i took a couple of primatene tablets during the hike to control asthma mg ephedrine mg theophylline i gather that both those drugs are diuretics so now i m wondering does that mean they can reduce the body s ability to utilize available water would it be a particularly stupid thing to take that medication during hot weather exercise i always assumed diuresis just meant you urinated a lot but that wasn t the case yesterday
sci.med	re chelation therapy in article rh seinnfkc newsstand cit cornell edu renee rme cornell edu writes does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta my uncle has emphesema and a doctor wants to try it on him we are wondering if is there any evidence edta chelation therapy is beneficial for his condition or any condition what possible side effects are there how can they be mimimized please respond via e mail to rme cornell edu thanks renee edta chelation therapy has been used by some physicians to try to remove calcium from calcified plaques in the arterial system not approved for such use there is also the possibility that lung tissue in patients with lung disease has become calcified chest x rays would show this there are side effects to the use of edta because it is not specific for calcium it also binds other minerals i think that there have been some deaths when edta chelation therapy has been used because of mineral imbalances that were not detected and corrected in animal studies the best way to remove calcium from plaques in rabbits was to supplement the rabbits with vitamin c and magnesium rabbits already synthesize their own vitamin c the extra vitamin c was given in their diets to help the magnesium displace the calcium from the plaques the calcification process that occurs in both plaques and the lung probably can be prevented if magnesium is used in supplemental form most patietns with calcium deposits are found to be deficient in calcium magnesium interrationships in ischemic heart disease a review am j clin nutr supplementation with magnesium will prevent clacification of blood vessels the importance of magnesium deficiency in cardiovascular disease am heart j the need to measure the serum concentration in all patients with heat disease cannot be overemphasized this is a review article effect of dietary magnesium on development of atherosclerosis in cholesterol fed rabbits atherosclerosis magnesium supplementation greatly decreased the formation of plaques in rabbits feed a diet that had by weight cholesterrol added to their normal food since edta will also bind magnesium i ve never really liked it s use for the reversal of athersclerosis or now apparently in emphesema patients marty b
sci.med	need info on circumcision medical cons and pros i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net gunnar blix good advice is one of those insults that blix cs uiuc edu ought to be forgiven unknown gunnar blix good advice is one of those insults that blix cs uiuc edu ought to be forgiven unknown
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rhb cf hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics i guess i m still not clear on what the term candida bloom means but certainly it is well known that thrush superficial candidal infections on mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing to do with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since a recent article randomized controlled trial of oral yogurt on reducing vaginal candidiasis i ve mentioned to a number of patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces of yogurt daily it turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn t what the systemic yeast syndrome is about and has nothing to do with the quack therapies that were being discussed there is some evidence that attempts to reinoculate the gi tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don t seem to be very helpful in reducing diarrhea but i don t think anyone would view this as a quack therapy david rind yogurt contains lactobacillus acidophilus and l bulgaricus l acidophilus is the major bacteria in the vaginal tract and is primarily responsible for keeping the vaginal tract acidic and yeast free most of the commercial yogurt sold in the u s has a very low l acidophilus and l bulgaricus count neither of these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important in dealing with the diarrhea problem gordon r has told me through e mail that he gives his patients l acidophilus and several different obligate anaerobes which set up shop in the colon but he hasn t told me which ones yet the lactobacillus genera are mostly facultative anaerobes and will set up shop where they have access to oxygen if given a chance mouth anus sinus cavity and vagina having these good bacteria around will greatly decrease the chance of candida blooms in the anal region or the vagina i have not proposed a systemic action for candida blooms i know that others swear that all kinds of symptoms arise from the evil yeast blooms in the body i m not ready to buy that yet i do believe that complications at specific sites vagina anal and maybe lower colon sinus and mouth can result from antibiotic use which removes the competing bacteria from these sites and thus lets candida grow unchecked restoring the right bacterial balance is the best way in my opinion to get rid of the problem anti fungals a low carbohydrate diet and vitamin a supplementation may all help to minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control of the food supply again and lower the ph to basically starve the candida out marty b
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rhfrkinn shelley u washington edu nodrog hardy u washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice nor is it mine what i tried to explain to marty was that it is clearly understood that antibiotic exposure is a risk factor for fungal infections which is not the same as saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like a secret known only to veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated a urinary tract infection knowns this at some centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed at retaining good anaerobic flora in an attempt to prevent fungal colonization in this soon to be high risk group i also use lactobacillus to treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may be in part due to alterations in gut flora however it is not part of my routine practice to reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics i have seen no data on this practice preventing or treating fungal infections in at risk patients whether or not it is a logical extension from the available observations i ll leave to those of you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations in the absence of clinical trials one place such therapy has been described is in treating particularly recalcitrant cases of c difficile colitis not a fungal infection there are case reports of using stool ie someone elses enemas to repopulate the patients flora don t try this at home not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that it isn t at least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake seems like this is an excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom a euphemism for no data and doing a good clinical trial like au dismukes w e wade j s lee j y dockery b k hain j d ti a randomized double blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments so n engl j med dec p psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms p less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions in women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation of long term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here no jon noring was not surprised at this negative trial since they didn t use sporanox despite crook s recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn t avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost candida can do that to you gordon i think that the best clinical trial for candida blooms would involve giving women with chronic vaginal candida blooms l acidophilus orally and see it it can decrease the frequency and extent of candida blooms in the vagina since most of the candida seems to be migrating in from the anal region and l acidophilus should be able keep the candida in check if it can make it through the intestinal tract and colonize in the anus where it will have access to oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out the calcium and kidney stone story is not a good reason to throw all conventional wisdom out the window where would medicine be if conventional wisdom had not been used to develop many of the standard medical practices that could not be confirmed through clinical trials the clinical trial is a very new arrival on the medical scene and a very important one the lack of proof that reinnoculation with good bacteria after antibiotic use is important to the health of a patient is no reason to dismiss it out of hand especially if reinnoculation can be done cleaply and safely like it is in animal husbandry marty b
sci.med	how to gain access to whomever who can help me i am a doctor from kota bharu kelantan malaysia i have recently hooked up my private home computer to email via the local telephone company i am really interested in corresponding with other doctors or medical researchers through email i also hope to be able to subscribe to a news network on medicine can someone please tell me what i should do i am completely new to this and have no idea about the vast capabilities of email thank you for your attention
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sperm deposited near the entrance of the vagina has been known to cause pregnancy even in the presence of a hymen i doubt that sperm could make it through a layer of cloth then find the right path to a waiting ovum but it might be possible so it is possible for a woman to be both virgin and pregnant also some hymens are sufficiently loose to allow near normal intercourse without rupturing the problem when investigating these phenomenae is of course getting an honest account of what exactly happened philippe
sci.med	re frozen shoulder and lawn mowing in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes ihave had a frozen shoulder for over a year or about a year it is still partially frozen and i am still in physical therapy every week but the pain has subsided almost completely until last week when i mowed the lawn for twenty minutes each two days in a row i have a push type power mower the pain started back up a little bit for the first time in quite a while and i used ice and medicine again can anybody explain why this particular activity which does not seem to stress me very much generally should cause this shoulder problem you need to use your shoulder muscles to push the mower if you haven t been doing much exercise as i suppose you haven t then a constant minute long effort can cause stiffness and cramps philippe
sci.med	occupational injuries and disease workers memorial day here is a press release from the american federation of state county and municipal employees unions point to deadly workplaces afscme other unions commemorate workers memorial day to national desk labor writer contact janet rivera of the american federation of state county and municipal employees afl cio washington april the american federation of state county and municipal employees afscme and other unions of the afl cio on wednesday april will commemorate the fifth annual workers memorial day a day to pay homage to the million workers who are killed injured or diseased on the job this year afscme will focus its workers memorial day efforts an the dangerous environment in which corrections officers must work earlier this month an afscme corrections officer robert vallandingham was killed by inmates who overtook the corrections facility in lucasville ohio the law and order agenda of the s has resulted in a steady increase in the prison population for the past five years on jn the prison population was projections show a continued increase in the number of inmates with an expected prison population of in the conditions which this burgeoning prison population has created for corrections officers is partially reflected in the number of assaults by inmates against staff assaults against staff increased dramatically between and and remain high in there were assaults by inmates against staff compared to such assaults in the increased number of inmates has brought on the dangerous combination of overcrowding and understaffing for example in ohio officer to inmate ratio is to the second worst ratio in the nation the national average is to other health and safety issues facing corrections officers include aids hepatitis b tuberculosis stress and chemical hazards afscme has more than members who work in the nation s federal state and local correctional facilities correction officers are not alone in performing their jobs under life threatening conditions every year american workers die from job related injuries and tens of thousands more die from occupational disease public employees do some of the nation s most dangerous jobs perilous occupations include highway workers highway workers are often injured and frequently killed by moving traffic because work zones are not barricaded or don t have proper lighting health care workers hospitals have the highest number of job related injuries and illnesses of any private sector employer and nursing homes ranked fifth there were more than job related illnesses and injuries in private sector hospitals in up almost percent over the previous year it is generally believed that health care workers employed at public sector hospitals and nursing homes have a significantly higher rate of injuries and illnesses than do their private sector counterparts health and safety issues facing health care workers include exposure to tuberculosis and the hiv virus back injuries and high levels of stress social workers social workers who work in mental health institutions are often the victims of assaults and sometimes fatal attacks for instance last october a man carrying a semiautomatic handgun walked into the schuyler county social services building in watkins glenn n y and fatally shot social services workers before turning the gun on himself there are two basic problems first is a growing lack of support services for people who don t have the help they need because workers are overworked some clients are not given the adequate amount of counselling such conditions may cause clients to become more frustrated the quality of the clients is also becoming more violent as more are moved out of the institutions nearly million workers have been killed by workplace hazards since osha was passed moreover as afscme president gerald w mcentee explains osha does not provide workplace safety protections for public employees more than public employees are killed each year on the job yet states still provide no federally approved osha coverage for public employees said mcentee this despite the fact that public employees highway workers health care workers corrections officers to name but a few do some of the most dangerous work in our society this year we are fighting for passage of osha reform legislation to give all workers greater rights and protections and finally guarantee all public employees safe workplaces we need the public support to be successful government workers suffer percent more injuries than private sector workers and these injuries are almost percent more severe public employees were exempted from osha when the law was passed in and today public employees in more than half the states have no osha coverage canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article nodrog hardy u washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost point i m beginning to see that part of the disagreements about the whole yeast issue is on differing perceptions and on differing meanings of words medical doctors have a very specific and specialized jargon necessary for precise communication within their field which i m fully cognizant of since i too speak jargonese when with my peers for the situation in sci med many times the words or phrases used by doctors can have a different and more specific meaning than the same word used in the world at large causing significant miscommunication one example word and very relevant to the yeast discussion is the exact meaning of systemic it is now obvious to me that the meaning of this word is very specific much more so than its meaning to a non doctor there is also the observation of this newsgroup that both doctors and non doctors come together on essentially equal terms which when combined with the jargon issue can further fan the flames this is probably the first time that practicing doctors get really beat up by non doctors for their views on medicine which they otherwise don t see much of in their practice except for the occasional difficult patient point i understand the viewpoint among many practicing doctors that they will not prescribe any treatments therapies for their patients unless such treatments have been shown to be effective and the risks understood from well constructed clinical trials usually double blind or that such treatments therapies are part of an approved and funded clinical trial to these doctors to do any differently would in this belief system be unethical practice and it follows that any therapy not on the accepted list is therefore a non therapy it does not even exist nor does the underlying hypothesis or theory have any validity even if it sounds very plausible by extrapolation of what is currently known anecdotal evidence has no value either from a treatment point of view and by and large as a scientist myself i am glad that medical practice science takes such a rigorous approach to medical treatment however as also being a human being last i checked and having been one of those people that has been significantly helped by a currently unaccepted treatment where standard medicine was not able to help me has caused me to sit back and wonder if holding such an extreme and rigid scientific viewpoint is in itself unethical from humanitarian considerations after all the underlying intent of the scientific approach to medicine is to protect the health of the patient by providing the best possible care for the patient so the patient should come first when considering treatment what we need is a slightly modified approach to treatment that satisfies both the scientific and the humanitarian viewpoints in an earlier post i outlined a crazy idea for doing just that the gist of it was to give any physician freedom and encouragement by the medical community to prescribe alternate not yet proven therapies maybe supported by anecdotal evidence for patients who all avenues of accepted therapies have been exhausted and not until then the patient would be fully informed that such therapies treatments are not supported by the proper clinical trials and that there are real potential risks with real possibilities of no benefit derived from them this approach satisfies the need for scientific rigor it also satisfies the humanitarian needs of the patient and the reality is that many patients who have reached a dead end in the treatment of their symptoms using accepted medicine will go outside the orthodox medical community either to the doctors who are brave enough to prescribe such treatments at the risk of losing their license or worse to non doctors who have not had the proper medical training this approach also recognizes this reality and keeps the control more within orthodox medicine with the benefits that the information gleaned could help focus limited resources towards future clinical trials in the most productive way everybody wins in this admittedly rose colored approach i m sure there are real problems with this approach as well it is presented more as a strawman to stimulate discussion hopefully what i write here may give the sci med doctors a better idea as to why i am open to alternative therapies as well as why i have real difficulty read apparent hostility with the coldness of the pure scientific approach to medicine i believe the best approach to medical treatment is one where both the humanitarian aspects are balanced with and by the scientific aspects anything else is just not good medicine imho just my nf leanings i guess comments jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article c zf n mentor cc purdue edu scheiber sage cc purdue edu jennifer scheiber writes in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher what is the likely hood of conception if sperm is deposited just outside the vagina ie chance hmmm i really don t know probably quite low overall why don t we get a couple hundred willing couples together and find out kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re krillean photography in article mmeyer apr m dseg ti com mmeyer m dseg ti com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian i think it was a typo for karelian photography which is the practice of taking pictures of either finns or russians depending on whom one asks eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes neither of these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important in dealing with the diarrhea problem the diarrhea problem what diarrhea problem first candidal overgrowth is not a frequent problem during antibiotic therapy and not all cases of antibiotic related diarrhea have anything to do with candida but a case of vaginal candidiasis or oral thrush after antibiotic therapy isn t going to surprise anyone either that s not what people are disagreeing with anti fungals a low carbohydrate diet and vitamin a supplementation may all help to minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control of the food supply again and lower the ph to basically starve the candida out oh really where d you come up with this you know it s really appalling to see you try to comment authoritatively on clinical matters in a bizarre synthesis from reading reports in the literature bobbing for citations in the research literature isn t medicine i hope you re not giving the wrong idea to your medical students steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	cats and pregnancy hello i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment thanks klaus hofmann national institute of materials and chemical research higashi tsukuba ibaraki japan
sci.med	re a good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg cb att com wrote hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located on the upper east side of manhattan if you want their address and phone let me know i ll get them i dont know them off hand felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu e a story eas ultb isc rit edu wrote in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge no it s called not wiping off the apparatus after taking a picture of the whole leaf gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu no sig yet
sci.med	med school admission hi all ive applied for the class of at quite a number of schools and have gotten rejects interviews and no responses any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march whats going on i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in i kind of looked into chiropractic and podiatry but they really dont interest me thanks felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	please help a patient mail newsserv kiae su subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen we should be grateful for any information about address and or e mail address of loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos a patient needs consultation in this clinics before operation with respect igor v sidelnikov quit
sci.med	lymenet newsletter vol lyme disease electronic mail network lymenet newsletter volume number i introduction ii announcements iii news from the wires iv questions n answers v op ed section vi jargon index vii how to subscribe contribute and get back issues i introduction in this issue of the newsletter we learn of the cdc s announced concern for the resurgence of infectious diseases in the united states thanks to jonathan lord for sending me the upi release the cdc announced they would feature a new series of articles in the morbidity and mortality weekly report on these infectious diseases ld is one of them we will keep you up to date on this series in addition we feature a the wall street journal article on the legal issues surrounding ld we also look at lyme s effects from the perspective of urologists in an abstract entitled urinary dysfunction in lyme disease finally terry morse asks an intriguing question about a tick s habitat marc ii announcements source the lyme disease update subject call for articles attention health care professionals the lyme disease update would like to publish your articles on lyme disease diagnosis lyme treatment and the effects on lyme on lyme patients physical and mental health the ldu has a monthly circulation of our mailing list includes lyme patients physicians researchers county health departments and over lyme support groups nationwide we strive to give our readers up to date information on lyme disease prevention diagnosis and treatment and a source for support and practical advice on living with lyme disease articles for the ldu should be approximately to words and should address lyme disease issues in non scientific language to submit your article mail to lyme disease update p o box evansville in or fax to one year subscriptions to the lyme disease update are outside the us mail your subscription requests to the above address or call for more information iii news from the wires sender jonathan lord jml s uva pcmail virginia edu subject resurgence of infectious disease concerns cdc date thursday april atlanta upi a resurgence of infectious diseases blamed on newly emerging viruses and bacteria pose a major challenge for the nation s health care system federal health officials said thursday the centers for disease control and prevention reporting its latest findings in an investigation of contaminated hamburger meat that sickened hundreds in states and killed at least four said it will put renewed emphasis on battling infectious diseases part of that emphasis includes a new series titled emerging infectious diseases to be featured in the cdc s morbidity mortality weekly report which has a wide circulation in the health community the issue also will top the agenda of a two day meeting of scientific counselors to update the cdc s draft plan for dealing with the growing threat of infectious ailments this is an issue that has been coming and we do have a responsibility to deal with it said dr ruth berkelman deputy director of the cdc s national center for infectious diseases there were more cases of malaria in the u s in than in any year since the s and latin america is experiencing a cholera epidemic the first in this century she said resistance of disease causing agents to antibiotics is also a problem we are seeing much more antibiotic resistance than we have in the past berkleman said she said even common ear infections frequently seen in children are becoming resistant to antibiotic treatment despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon be eliminated as a public health problem infectious diseases remain the major cause of death worldwide and a leading cause of illness and death in the united states the cdc said it cited the emergence since the s of a myriad of newly identified pathogens and syndromes such as escherichia coli o h a deadly bacterial infection the hepatitis c virus hiv the virus that causes aids legionnaires disease lyme disease and toxic shock syndrome the incidences of many diseases widely presumed to be under control such as cholera malaria and tuberculosis have increased in many areas the cdc said it said efforts at control and prevention have been undermined by drug resistance source wall street journal reference pb headline lyme disease ruling raises liability issues the tick that causes lyme disease may have found a new way to cause damage legal liability a federal judge s decision holding a property owner liable for not doing enough to protect workers from lyme disease is getting as much attention as the latest medical study on the disease a flu like illness that can cause severe physical and mental disabilities and in rare instances death the decision last week has put property owners on notice that they may have to do more than protect themselves from the ticks they also may have to protect themselves from litigation if someone becomes infected while on the property the decision by u s district judge robert j ward in new york came after a week long trial in a case involving four track workers for the long island railroad judge ward found that the workers contracted the disease after they were bitten by ticks while on the job he ordered the new york state owned commuter line to pay the workers more than to compensate for pain and suffering in addition to medical expenses and lost wages summer camps schools companies with facilities in rural or semirural areas and homeowners who rent to vacationers are among the groups that need to be worried about this ruling says stephen l kass an attorney at new york law firm berle kass case who wrote a legal article three years ago warning property owners of the potential liability even a family that invites friends over for a backyard barbecue might be potentially liable lawsuits for insect bites while rare aren t unheard of a summer vacationer in southampton n y last year sued the owner of the home she rented claiming that a tick on the property gave her rocky mountain spotted fever in also on long island a jury ordered an outdoor restaurant to pay more than million to a patron who was stung by a bee causing an allergic reaction and permanent quadriplegia the judge later threw out the award citing no evidence that a beehive was near the restaurant but lawyers say that the attention to lyme disease throughout the country it s most prevalent in new england the middle atlantic states wisconsin minnesota and the northwest may make this particular insect bite a particularly litigious one the illness already has proved to be a source of controversy in the courtroom over such issues as the type of medical care insurers will cover and medical malpractice claims against doctors for not diagnosing the disease lawyers say worker s compensation claims related to lyme disease have become common in some states in recent years payments in worker s compensation cases however are limited to medical costs and lost earnings the case before judge ward dealt with a potentially much more lucrative avenue for damages because it involved the question of negligence unlike the worker s compensation process the law governing injuries to rail workers allows for a finding of negligence and as a result for additional payments for pain and suffering property owners and lawyers say that negligence claims can be made in many other situations where people are exposed to the ticks that carry the disease ira m maurer a partner at new york law firm elkind flynn maurer who represented the rail workers says the decision will help to establish the duty of all sorts of property owners to protect against lyme disease lawyers caution that despite judge ward s decision winning a lawsuit for damages caused by lyme disease may prove difficult for one thing victims have to demonstrate that they have pinned down when and where they got the tick bite judge ward found that the plaintiffs in the railroad case got lyme disease while working on property owned by the railroad even though none of the men remembered being bitten the workers who weren t outdoorsmen likely to be exposed elsewhere to the insects said they saw ticks in the high grass that surrounded some work sites a spokeswoman for the railroad says that there was no proof that the four men were bitten while on the job and that the railroad is considering an appeal the railroad also disputes judge ward s finding that it didn t do enough to protect employees the spokeswoman says the railroad provides track workers with insect repellent and special pants to protect against bug bites debate in the scientific community over lyme disease could open up some legal defenses for property owners such as questioning whether a victim actually has the disease rather than some other illness earlier this week the journal of the american medical association reported that doctors overly diagnose patients as having lyme disease and damages awarded to a victim also might be influenced by medical disputes over the degree of harm that lyme disease causes because of health and safety concerns some groups and companies already take special measures to protect against lyme disease last year at its headquarters in franklin lakes n j becton dickinson co began using damminix a pesticide made by ecohealth inc of boston that is designed to kill ticks carrying the disease the medical supply company s headquarters include a acre park and the company was worried that employees who walk on its trails for recreation might get infected ruth lister a spokeswoman for the american camping association in indianapolis says that many youth camps accredited by her organization also have begun to check children for ticks and carole katz a member of the board of the fire island pines property owners association says her group spends each year to treat their acre site off the coast of new york with the tick killing pesticide title urinary dysfunction in lyme disease authors chancellor mb mcginnis de shenot pj kiilholma p hirsch ih department of urology jefferson medical college thomas jefferson university philadelphia pennsylvania reference j urol jan lyme disease which is caused by the spirochete borrelia burgdorferi is associated with a variety of neurological sequelae we describe patients with neuro borreliosis who also had lower urinary tract dysfunction urodynamic evaluation revealed detrusor hyperreflexia in patients and detrusor areflexia in detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia was not noted on electromyography in any patient we observed that the urinary tract may be involved in respects in the course of lyme disease voiding dysfunction may be part of neuro borreliosis and the spirochete may directly invade the urinary tract in patient bladder infection by the lyme spirochete was documented on biopsy neurological and urological symptoms in all patients were slow to resolve and convalescence was protracted relapses of active lyme disease and residual neurological deficits were common urologists practicing in areas endemic for lyme disease need to be aware of b burgdorferi infection in the differential diagnosis of neurogenic bladder dysfunction conservative bladder management including clean intermittent catheterization guided by urodynamic evaluation is recommended iv questions n answers note if you have a response to this question please forward it to the editor sender terry morse morset ccmail orst edu subject question on lyme vectors and compost piles when i visited my sister on long island ny i was cautioned to avoid the compost heap in her back yard as she thinks this is where she became infected a friend of mine here in oregon who has a compost heap would like me to back that claim up with documentation do lyme carrying ticks hang out in compost heaps thank you v op ed section this section is open to all subscribers who would like to express an opinion vi jargon index bb borrelia burgdorferi the scientific name for the ld bacterium cdc centers for disease control federal agency in charge of tracking diseases and programs to prevent them cns central nervous system elisa enzyme linked immunosorbent assays common antibody test em erythema migrans the name of the bull s eye rash that appears in of the patients early in the infection ifa indirect fluorescent antibody common antibody test ld common abbreviation for lyme disease nih national institutes of health federal agency that conducts medical research and issues grants to research interests pcr polymerase chain reaction a new test that detects the dna sequence of the microbe in question currently being tested for use in detecting ld tb and aids spirochete the ld bacterium it s given this name due to it s spiral shape western blot a more precise antibody test vii how to subscribe contribute and get back issues subscriptions anyone with an internet address may subscribe send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type subscribe lymenet l your real name fax subscriptions are also available send a single page fax to for further information deletions send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type unsubscribe lymenet l contributions send all contributions to lymenet l lehigh edu or fax them to all are encouraged to submit questions news items announcements and commentaries back issues send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type get lymenet l newsletters x yy where x vol and yy issue example get lymenet l newsletters will get vol issue lymenet the internet lyme disease information source editor in chief marc c gabriel mcg lehigh edu fax contributing editors carl brenner brenner lamont ldgo columbia edu john setel o donnell jod equator com advisors carol jane stolow director william s stolow president the lyme disease network of new jersey chief proofreader ed mackey elm lehigh edu when comments are presented with an attribution they do not necessarily represent the opinions analyses of the editor this newsletter may be reproduced and or posted on bulletin boards freely as long as it is not modified or abridged in any way send all bug reports to mcg lehigh edu
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections can men get yeast infections spread them what kind of symptoms my ent doctor told me that it is not uncommon for the wife to get a vaginal yeast infection after the husband takes antibiotics in fact this recently happened to my wife explanation is that the antibiotics kill the yeast s competition they then thrive and increased yeast around the penis spread the infection during intercourse i was on ceclor for days then my wife got the yeast jay keller badboy netcom com
sci.med	umbilical hernia could anyone give me information on umbilical hernias the patient is over weight and has a protruding hernia surgery may be risky due to the obesity what other remedies could i try thanx in advance dr gary taylor
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections a woman once told me her doctor told her that i could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give it back to her causing a relapse probably bogus but if not it s another reason to use latex steve
sci.med	re proventil inhaler in article bb cdeb rick ysub ysu edu rick ysub ysu edu rick marsico writes does the proventil inhaler for asthma relief fall into the steroid or nonsteroid category looking at the product literature it s not clear non steroid proventil is a brand of albuterol a bronchodilator regards jay keller asthmatic proventil head
sci.med	re med school admission hoss panix com writes hi all ive applied for the class of at quite a number of schools and have gotten rejects interviews and no responses three possible results after interview rejection outright acceptance outright the infamous wait list if you are on a wait list your entrance into medical school is dependent upon some other applicant withdrawing their acceptance this can happen as late as day of starting classes any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march whats going on i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day you can always call the admissions office the secretaries should have some idea of when a decision might be made on your application be calm respectful and friendly secretaries have more power than you might realize and you never know could be the dean of admissions answering the phone also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in i if you don t get in this year sit down and re evaluate yourself your motives desires and goals that are directing you into medicine your academic and extracurricular accomplishments make a decision about whether you really want to be a medical doctor i had classmates who dropped out in the first semester of med school because they found it was not what they wanted to do i have friends who applied four years in a row before they were accepted medicine as a career is a choice you must make for yourself don t be pushed into it because of your parents family significant other if you still want to be a medical doctor determine how you can improve your application a letter of recommendation from a professor who knows you well and can give an honest positive recommendation is far better than one from a big shot famous professor who only vaguely remembers your face also don t be afraid to ask these people if they can give you an honest and positive recommendation give them a chance to say no sorry instead of the medical school saying no sorry i have turned down writing recommendations for some students because i did not know them well enough to make any meaningful comments and some because i honestly could not recommend them at that point rewrite your personal statement take it by an english professor or some other friendly person with skill and experience in writing and proof reading and get their criticism both about what you are saying as well as how you say it review your academic accomplishments if your grades are poor in some area don t be afraid to spend some time in further coursework evidence of determined committment will help here if you filled your pre medicine curriculum with gut courses it usually shows look at your extracurricular involvements participating in local philanthropic or service organizations is a plus substantial leadership roles in an organization help also beware of resume padding such things are not difficult to spot and weed out overall a clear conception of where you wish to head and why you want to get there combined with an honest self appraisal of skills and aptitude will be the best path to take in applying to any program medical or what have you good luck with the process as tom petty says the waiting is the hardest part at least emotionally bob schmieg
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty my ent doctor recommended surgery to fix my sinuses i have a very deviated nasal septum probably the result at least partially from several fractures one side has approximately of normal flow of course i have known this for years but recently discovered that i suffer from chronic sinus infection discovered during an mri after a severe migraine a ct scan subsequently confirmed the problems in the sinuses he wants to do endoscopic sinus surgery on the ethmoid maxillary frontal and sphenoid along with nasal septoplasty he explained the procedure and the risks what i would like to know is if there is anyone out there who can tell me i had this surgery and it helped me i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved i am any relevant information is appreciated regards jay keller sunnyvale california badboy netcom com
sci.med	iridology any credence to it i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a licensed herbologist and iridologist what are your opinions how much can you tell about a person s health by looking into their eyes
sci.med	prohibit for spiral meningitis i like to know how effective prohibit is to prevent spiral meningitis for a child who is five years old i heard it s from canada what sort of side effects etc chul hee cho
sci.med	re pregnency without sex i think you must have the same hygiene teacher i had in there is a story about the civil war about a soldier who was shot in the groin the bullet after passing through one of his testes then entered the abdomen of a young woman standing nearby later when she a young woman of unimpeachible virtue was shown to be pregnant the soldier did the honorable thing of marrying her according to this story they lived happily ever after perhaps the most famous of mr rau s classes was the time he would come into class brandishing an aluminum turning mandrel tapering from about to over a inch length he would say boys do you know what this is it s a medical instrument called a cock reamer and it s used to unclog your penis when you have vd they just ram it up there without an anesthetic needless to say this had a chilling effect i didn t have lascivious thoughts for at least an hour later in life as i perused medical instrument catelogs and saw the slender flexible urethral sounds that are actually used i could not escape thinking that i might one day see reamer cock style of rau
sci.med	re pregnency without sex speaking of educational systems i recently had a colleague tell me that the reason one of our fifth grade students is so physically developed is because she was sexually abused as a younger child this she went on to say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition i wrote kw if you don t like additives then for godsake kw get off the net and learn to cook from scratch sheesh mary allison exclaims ma excuse me ma why can t people learn to cook from scratch on the net ma i ve gotten lots of recipes off the net that don t use additives because one simply can t cook on the net nor can one cook while on the net cooking is best done in a kitchen on a stove gotcha grin i said this out of general frustration at people not anyone in particular who seem to expect packaged food to conform to their tastes in other words if packaged foods are not to your liking prepare foods that are ma if you like additives then get off the net and go to your local ma supermarket buy lots of packaged foods and you get off the net i don t have strong feelings about additives as long as i can t taste em as for the rest of your reply to me i am sorry it it seemed as if i was picking on you i wasn t trying to do so please accept my apologies kiran
sci.med	nasopharinx carcenoma hi does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary also in the advacned cases what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking thanks f
sci.med	re cats and pregnancy in article apr etl go jp klaus ipri go jp klaus hofmann writes hello i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment having the cat around is not a problem but the pregnant woman should not change the litter box toxoplasmosis can be transmitted from the stool of some cats kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	herpes question i am looking for some clarification on a subject that i am trying to find some information on how is hsv herpes transmitted i currently know that it can be transmitted during inflammation but what i am looking for is if it can be transmitted during in other periods also i want to know if you can be accurately tested for it while you are not showing symtoms if you can help i would greatly appreciate it teg
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition michael iastate edu michael m huang writes msg is common in many food we eat including chinese though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them i ve noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards this happens to many of my friends and relatives too and heh we eat chinese food all the time at home but we don t use msg when we re cooking for ourselves heck i seem to feel like that every time i eat out including in the cafeteria at work about half the time the headache intensifies until nothing will make it go away except throwing up ick as you might imagine i don t eat out a lot i guess my tolerance for food additives has plummeted since i switched to eating mostly steamed veggies they re easy to fix that s all i won t even mention what happened the last time i ate corned beef oops too late the graphics bbs it s better than a sharp stick in the eye internet lim graphics rent com julie lim uucp rutgers bobsbox graphics lim
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections steve pope spp zabriskie berkeley edu wrote a woman once told me her doctor told her that i could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give it back to her causing a relapse probably bogus but if not it s another reason to use latex steve it isn t bogus i had chronic vaginal yeast infections that would go away with cream but reappear in about weeks i had been on rounds of antibiotics for a resistant sinus infection and my husband had been on amoxicillin also for a sinus infection after six months of this i went to a gynecologist who had me culture my husband seminal fluid after days incubation he had quite a bit of yeast growth it was confirmed by the lab a round of nizerol for him cleared both of us andrea kwiatkowski
sci.med	re pregnency without sex mmatusev radford vak ed edu melissa n matusevich writes speaking of educational systems i recently had a colleague tell me that the reason one of our fifth grade students is so physically developed is because she was sexually abused as a younger child this she went on to say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty nonsense i ve taught fifth sixth seventh there are a few early puberty types in fifth and it has nothing to do with early sexual experience jackie
sci.med	re nasopharinx carcenoma in article y z d rpi edu chungy rebecca its rpi edu yau felix chung writes hi does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary nasopharyngeal cancer is roughly don t have references at hand times more prevalent in chinese than caucasians particularly those chinese from southern china one province or region has an extraordinary excess the chinese and others have done major studies some association with the epstein barr virus has been noted also in the advacned cases what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking palliative radiotherapy is used
sci.med	hip replacement 
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu blix milton cs uiuc edu gunnar blix writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i pity those who hope that medical knowledge can resolve issues such as this this issue has been rehashed in sci med time and time again the bottom line is this in normal circumstances both the medical advantages of and the medical risks of circumcision are minor this means that the decision is left to the religious cultural ethical and aesthetic mores of the parents at best or to the habit of the concerned hospital or caregivers at worst as prospective parents you should do what you want in this regard and not worry about it too much in terms of decisions you make for your child it will have far less importance than many such as which schools you choose that most parents think about only a little this question will undoubtedly push the buttons of people who feel that the decision to circumcise your infant or not is a momentous medical decision it is not russell
sci.med	we can supply you with the transplantants other the private scietific industrial firm intercom can supply you with the transplantants that could be delivered according to your order selection and preparation of the materials is carried out by the qualified personnel having year experience in this sphere we provide immunological selection of tissues on the special request aids syphilis other infection diseases tests bio chemical tests we guarantee deliverance of our products within temperature habital providing their prime condition o yarosha st apart kharkov ukraine tel fax e mail tuser azbuka kharkov ua relay ussr eu net
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it in article aa dpw com janice price jprice dpw com writes how much can you tell about a person s health by looking into their eyes by looking at the iris iridology virtually nothing looking at the retina allows one to visualise the small blood vessels and is helpful in assessing various systemic diseases hypertension and diabetes for example don mackie his opinion um will disavow
sci.med	re thermogenics first off if i m not mistaken only hibernating animals have brown fat not humans secondly your description sounds just like dinitrophenol this is an uncoupler of respiratory chain oxidative phosphorylation put in layman s terms it short circuits the mitochondria causing food energy to be turned into heat dnp was popular in the s for weight reduction in controlled amounts it raises body temperature as the body compensates for the reduced amount of useful energy available it is very dangerous it would be wiser to adjust to your present body form rather than play around with dnp but if you insist i suggest you look up the literature in your own university library you can obtain dnp by taking a first year organic chemistry lab course and swiping it from the supplies it s a commonly used reagent
sci.med	re hypodermic needle scientific american had a nice short article on the history of the hypodermic about or years ago prior to liquid injectables there were paddle like needles used to implant a tiny pill under the skin
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out i ve mentioned this study a couple of times now ingestion of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus as prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals of internal medicine do you have a problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules of lactobacillus even though it had positive results the study was a crossover trial of daily ingestion of ounces of yogurt there was a marked decrease in infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference in rates of infection between the two groups was so large that the study remains fairly believable david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections my then wife used to get recurrent yeast infections one day her doctor sent her home with medication for her and a pill for me i took the pill upon her insistence and was very relieved the next day when i looked it up in the pdr it only rarely causes testicular atrophy anyway men apparently do get yeast infections
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition in particular dr bernard jenssen in his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes me but it is very similar to that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system to a significant degree he also plugs a unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration of colonics it sells for over from a california based company he also plugs vitra tox products as his chemical agents of choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness if anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars or the colema board and related products i d be very interested to hear about research and personal experience this article is crossposted to alt magick as the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through a ritual system of purification eli wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition in particular dr bernard jenssen in his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes me but it is very similar to that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system to a significant degree he also plugs a unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration of colonics it sells for over from a california based company he also plugs vitra tox products as his chemical agents of choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness if anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars or the colema board and related products i d be very interested to hear about research and personal experience this article is crossposted to alt magick as the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through a ritual system of purification eli wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	re cats and pregnancy in article apr etl go jp klaus ipri go jp klaus hofmann writes i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment the disease you are talking about is toxoplasmosis it is a protozoan that lives and multiplies within cells in cats the protozoan multiplies in the intestinal cells and eggs are shed in the cat s feces the protozoa can cross the placenta to infect the fetus the disease may be asymptomatic after the baby is born or it may be very severe toxo may cause blindness and mental retardation having a cat in the same apartment should not be a problem however pregnant women should not scoop or change the cat s litterbox in addition whoever does empty the litterbox should thoroughly wash his her hands before handling anything else especially food information came from the merck manual th ed i hope this information is helpful to you elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	usmle formerly national boards part request to medical students this request goes out to medical students who have done or are planning to sit the usmle or national boards part my wife is sitting this examination in early june this year and would like to have a look at some old national boards part questions found in the following books these books are currently out of print the books are retired nbme basic medical science test items nbme published by nbme in self test in the part basic medical sciences nbme published by nbme in i would appreciate if anyone who has these books is willing to loan it to her for a couple of days obviously i would reimburse for you all postage and related charges failing that it would be beneficial if anyone could point to any library in the ny nj or pa area that may have these books please respond by e mail since i do not read this newsgroup regularly thanks in advance daniel e mail daniel learning siemens com
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton cs uiuc edu writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net i m very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision of newborn males on the population since your friend is not a man she can t imagine what it s like to have a penis much less a foreskin i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary
sci.med	allergies and stuff was is msg sensitivity superstition unless i plan on getting sick i won t eat the stuff without my seldane and did i ever learn to read labels it might not please a medical researcher but it pleased my own personal physician enough for him to give me allergy medicine allergy medicine huh is this just to get rid of the resultant migraine or whatever or does it actually suppress allergic reactions i e like an antihistamine does as far as doctors over here are concerned if you slip up and eat something you re allergic to even if they won t test you to tell you what to avoid then tough if a cheap medicine will alleviate your symptoms then fine otherwise you just suffer one doctor did prescribe me imigran costs the nhs for tablets after having to rehydrate me because i d been throwing up for four solid days and couldn t even drink water but i got taken off it again when i moved and had to change doctors reasoning they did not know what the side effects were because it was new ok fine but it has passed the safety tests to get on the prescription list and anyway i was prepared to take the risk to have quality of life now the only alternatives i have is to get it prescribed privately which i cannot afford or to pay a private allergy specialist to test me and tell me what to avoid i am fairly certain i am allergic to more than one chemical additive as a lot of things i can t eat have nothing in common except things i know are safe so testing myself isn t really an option there are too many permutations i m not saying i never consume anything with msg i ve noticed that i have a certain tolerance level like a small bag of bbq chips once a month or so it not a problem but that same bag of chips will bother me if i also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch at one of the chinese restaurants the day before yes i ve noticed that and i can work it up by eating just under the tolerance level fairly regularly if i don t eat anything except home cooking for a month or so i lose it and have to work it up from scratch a bad experience now i know what the early warning symptoms are though i can usually tell whether i am allergic to food before i ve eaten too much of it usually
sci.med	looking for info on kemotherapy sp hello a friend is under going kemotherapy sp for breast cancer i m trying to learn what i can about it any info would be appreciated thanks
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article etxmow garboc etxmow garbo ericsson se mats winberg writes isn t there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non invasive use of ultra sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he she undergoes treatment i m sure i ve read about it somewhere if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment a couple of weeks ago i visited a hospital here in stockholm and saw big signs showing the way to the kidney stone chrusher i saw this a few years ago on tomorrow s world low brow bbc technology news program the patient is lowered into a bath of de ionized water and carefully positioned high intensity pressure waves are generated by an electric spark in the water you don t get electrocuted because de ionised water does not conduct these waves are focused on the kidneys by a parabolic reflector and cause the stone to break up this is completely painless of course you then have to get these little bits of gravel through the urethra ouch paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly in article westesc xqf r netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes does anyone know of research done on the use of haldol in the elderly does short term use of the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use of the drug my grandmother recently had to be hospitalized and was given large doses of haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from a perky slightly senile woman into a virtual vegetable who does not talk to anyone and who cannot even eat or brush her teeth without assistance it seems incredible to me that such changes could take place in the course of just one and one half months i have to believe that the combination of the hospital stay and some drug s are in part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com haldol one of the wonder drugs that works wonders if you re a carrot that is henry dunham chip emt d nremt coordinator of ems operations houston field house ems hd albnyvms bitnet
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu wrote i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling us that none of the drugs interact they even took the attitude that if he was disoriented they should put him on something else as well with the help of an md friend of the family we had all his medication discontinued he had a seizure that night and was put back on one drug two days later he was his old self again i guess there aren t many medical texts that address the subject of way interactions i saw the same thing happen to my father and i can more or less validate your take on hospitals it seems to me that medical science understands precious little about taking care of the human machine drugs are given as a response to symptoms and i guess that makes sense since all the studies that validate the effectiveness of those drugs are based on a narrow assessment of the degree of particular symptoms but there seems to be very little appreciation for the well being of a person outside of the numbers that appear on a test i watched my dad wither away and lose huge amounts of body fat and muscles tissue while in the hospital there is something a little crazy about a system in which there is more attention paid to giving you every latest drug available than there is attention paid to whether you have had enough to eat to prevent loss of muscle tissue it is really really bizarre will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	re pregnency without sex all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on
sci.med	re krillean photography flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth flame off or end sermon alex
sci.med	what is the medical term for this sensation dear netters maybe one of you can explain this from time to time i experience a strange kind of feeling i have all kinds of weird feelings which can be best described as the feeling of losing gravity like that one experiences in a descending elevator needless to say it is not enjoyable it sometimes comes with shortness of breath and extreme fatigue it lasts from a few minutes to an hour and when it lasts that long it makes me sweatening initially i called it palpitation spelling until i later learnt that the terminology has been reserved for the self awareness of heart beats so is there a specific term for this feeling or am i a stragne person i always believe i am unique thanks ping
sci.med	re discussions on alt psychoactives re serious discussion about drugs vs where can i get a good bong man why not have the group moderated that would eliminate some of the idiots
sci.med	vasectomy health effects on women does anyone know of any studies done on the long term health effects of a man s vasectomy on his female partner i ve seen plenty of study results about vasectomy s effects on men s health but what about women for example might the wife of a vasectomized man become more at risk for say cervical cancer adverse effects from sperm antibodies changes in the vagina s ph yeast or bacterial infections outside of study results how about informed speculation thanks in advance for your help eric skagerberg eskagerb nermal santarosa edu santa rosa california telephone
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy dear bill i think you forgot the smileys some of us got the joke
sci.med	re med school admission i m a fellow applicant and my situation is not too much better i applied to about schools got two interviews got one offer and am waiting to hear from the other school let me be honest about my experiences and impressions about the medical school admissions process numbers gpa mcats are not everything but they are probably more important than anything else in fact some schools screen out applicants based on these numbers and never even look at your other qualities of course when this happens don t expect a refund on your application fee but the fact that you got four interviews tells me that you have the numbers and are very well qualified academically you mentioned one response was it an acceptance denial or wait list if i assume the worst that it was a denial then you still have a great probability of acceptance somewhere how did your interviews go as for how long you have to wait i ve called a few schools who never contacted me for anything many of them told me that the interview season for them was over and that if i haven t heard by now i can assume a denial many rejection letters are not sent out until may or as late as june but some schools are still interviewing i really don t think you should worry don t become fixated on the mailbox go out have fun be very proud of yourself what do people think of the medical school admissions process i had a very mediocre gpa but high mcat scores and i have been working as a software engineer for two years i majored in computer science at stanford still i think the profile of the person who has the best chance of getting admitted is something like this very important gpa or better mcat top in all subject medium importance writing speaking ability maturity motivation for going into medicine activities less important college or university major work experience anything else you want them to know anyway you are in good shape i think admissions committees are bound in many ways by the numbers but would like very much to understand each person as an individual sometimes thats just not practical but getting four interviews is an indicator that you have the numbers hopefully you were able to impress them with your character good luck jeff
sci.med	re help for kidney stones etxmow garbo ericsson se mats winberg writes isn t there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non invasive use of ultra sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he she undergoes treatment i m sure i ve read about it somewhere if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment the use of shock waves not ultrasound to break up stones has been around for a few years depending on the type of machine and intensity of the shock waves it is usually uncomfortable enough to require something the high power machines cause enough pain to require general or regional anesthesia afterwards it feels like someone slugged you pretty good
sci.med	re resound hearing aids and others in article rhaller rhaller cc uoregon edu rhaller ns uoregon edu rich haller writes i have a fairly severe high frequency hearing loss a recent rough test showed a gently sloping loss to db down at cps then it falls off a cliff to dbs down from cps on this type of loss is difficult to fit i am currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep me roughly functional but leave a lot to be desired recently i had an opportunity to test the widex q behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended to be customized for different hearing situations and can be reprogramed i found them to be a definite improvement over my current aids and was about to go ahead with them until another local outfit advertised a free trial of another programmable system called resound unfortunately i was only able to try the resound aids in their office for about minutes and i couldn t compare them head to head with the widex nevertheless it did appear to me that they were superior and i was impressed by what i was able to read about the theory behind them which i will give in a separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided to go ahead and get the resound even though he had purchased the widex only months ago the problem is that the resound aids are about twice as expensive as the widex and other programmable aids i could take a trip to europe on the difference being a lover of bargains and hating to spend money i am having a hard time persuading myself to go with the resounds i would appreciate any opinions on this and other hearing aids and projections about when and if i might see improvements in technology that aren t quite so expensive your hearing curve sounds a lot like mine thanks uncle sam i ve been wearing miracle ear canal aids for about months now and i find them to be acceptable they are molded to the shape of your ear canal and tuned to your hearing curve they are comfortable to wear and almost invisible if you re worried about that although if you re currently wearing behind the ear models that s not an issue the cost i paid each for mine through the miracle ear counter at sears i ve heard that there is a substantial discount for senior citizens but i haven t researched that because i m not a senior citizen yet give them a try you might be pleasantly surprised alan hepburn a man doesn t know what he knows national semiconductor until he knows what he doesn t know santa clara ca alan berlioz nsc com thomas carlyle
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rjifg bgm hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out i ve mentioned this study a couple of times now ingestion of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus as prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals of internal medicine do you have a problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules of lactobacillus even though it had positive results the study was a crossover trial of daily ingestion of ounces of yogurt there was a marked decrease in infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference in rates of infection between the two groups was so large that the study remains fairly believable david rind david this study looks like a good one gordon rubenfeld did a medline search and also sent me the same reference through e mail since commercial yogurt does not always have a good lactobacillus a or bulgaricus culture a negative finding would not have been too informative this is often the reason why lactobacillus acidophilus tablets are recommended rather than yogurt i guess the next question is why would this introduction of good bacteria back into the gut decrease the incidence of vaginal candida blooms if the anus was not serving as a candida reservoir a fact that gordon r vehementy denys i see two possible theories one the l acidophilus which is a facultatively anaerobic bacterium could make it through the gut and colonize the rectal area to overgrow the candida this would not explain the reoccurance of candida blooms in the vagina after the yogurt ingestion was stopped though the other is that the additional bacteria in the intestinal tract remove most of the glucose from the feces and candida looses it s major food source getting lactobacillus acidophilus to colonize the vaginal tract where it is normally found would have a much better effect on the recurrance of vaginal yeast blooms though an acetic acid lactobacillus acidophilus douche has been used to get this effect but i ve not seen any such treatment reported in the medical literature this would be an example of physicians conducting their own clinical trials to try to come up with treatments that help their patients when this is done in private practice the results are rarely if ever published it was the hallmark of medicine until the modern age emerged with clinical trials it really raises a big question does the medical profession cast out the adventerous few who try new treatments to help patients or does it look the other way this particular issue is really a very simple one since no real dangerous therapy is involved even the anti fungals are not all that dangerous but there are some areas like edta chelation therapy where the fire is pretty hot and somebody could get burned it s really tough do i follow only well established protocols and then give up if they don t work that well or do it try something that looks like it will work but hasn t been proven to work yet my stand is to consider other treatment possibilities especially if they involve little or no risk to the patient getting good bacteria back into the gut after antibiotic treatment is one treatment possibility the other is getting l acidophilus into the vaginal tract of a woman who is having a problem with recurring yeast infections marty b
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rjr uinnh gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu carl j lydick writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this is true but it s not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful in their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect one of the most influential critics of kirlian electrophotography is a theosophist and threfore presumably willing to entertain the hypothesis of scientific evidence for a human aura electromagnetic or otherwise professor of electrical engineering at london s city university and a past president of the society for psychic research named a j ellison after years of studying the method and the claims ellison came to the conclusion that the photographic images are what we calls lichtenberg figures an effect of intermittent ionization of the air around the object it s a bit more complicated than not wiping off the plates but it comes down to the same thing in the end kirlian electrophotography has much more limited value if any than was previously widely thought electrical and magnetic fields generated by the body are much too small to be of much use diagnostically without very elaborate equipment and usually also tracer chemicals kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought oliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	request faq hi i have a friend who is interested in subscribing to this newsgroup unfortunatly she does not have usenet access if someone could send her a faq and info on how to subscribe we d be very appreciative if you want to send it to me you can and i will get it to her i do not read this newsgroup regularly though so e mail please thank you jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o e mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out of oppression
sci.med	oops silly me sorry my friend s address who wants the faq and info is jjsulliv colby edu sorry about that folks jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o e mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out of oppression
sci.med	ecg data needed i need some ecg data uncompressed hopefully in ascii format don t care what it looks like this is for a signal processing project
sci.med	re please help a patient in article aaghzshe integral stavropol su mymail integral stavropol su writes mail newsserv kiae su subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen we should be grateful for any information about address and or e mail address of loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos a patient needs consultation in this clinics before operation with respect igor v sidelnikov quit this is also being replied to via e mail i dialed my university librarian and he looked it up loma linda university medical center loma linda ca i don t know an internet address for them but they can be reached by telephone at good luck daniel r field aka infospunj never believe any experiment until dfield oboe calpoly edu it has been confirmed by theory biochemistry biotechnology arthur eddington california polytechnic state u tongue in cheek or foot in mouth
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article apr netnews noc drexel edu giamomj duvm ocs drexel edu mike g writes need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton cs uiuc edu writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net i m very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision of newborn males on the population since your friend is not a man she money probably has a lot to do with keeping the practice of routine circumcision alive it s another opporitunity to charge a few hundred extra bucks for a completely unnecessary procedure the rationale for which until recently has been accepted without question by most parents of newborns one could also imagine that complications arising from circumcision infections sloppy jobs etc are far more common than the remote chance of penile cancer it is purported to prevent can t imagine what it s like to have a penis much less a foreskin i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana champaign
sci.med	can i sell my tens unit sci med people can i sell my tens unit or does it have to be sold by a physician or other liscened person doug opdbs vm cc latech edu
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on but the sperm would be very diluted in a x gallon swimming pool j e n n i f e r s c h e i b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school of nursing purdue university
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there where have you seen that attitude i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics fine jackass suppose you point out even one aspect of kirlian photography that s not explained by a corona discharge carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	persistent vs chronic can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis thanks horace
sci.med	feverfew for migraines i heard a short blurb on the news yesterday about an herb called feverfew that some say is good for preventing migraines i think the news said there were two double blind studies that found this effective does anyone know about these studies or have experience with feverfew i m skeptical but open to trying it if i can find out more about this what is feverfew and how much would you take to prevent migraines if this is a good idea that is are there any known risks or side effects of feverfew thanks in advance for any info brenda
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it iridology is descendant from a th century theory which mapped certain diseases to sectors of the iris of the eye there s enough natural variation in color that a skilled examiner can find indicators of virtually any disease modern scientists consider it to be complete bunk
sci.med	re we can supply you with the transplantants other harvested to order
sci.med	re info colonics and purification colonics were a health fad of the th century which persists to this day except for certain medical conditions there is no reason to do this certainly no normal person should do this frequent use of enemas can lead to a condition in which a person is unable to have normal bowel passage essentially a person becomes addicted to enemas as i understand it this is a very unpleasant condition and it would be best to avoid it
sci.med	re med school admission then there are always osteopathy colleges
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com mike quigley writes in article i write when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur ohboy here we go again and one wonders why the american education system is in such abysmal shape actually this was a school in england this same biology teacher also told me that the reason that stars twinkle is that the small spot of light on the retina sometimes falls between the light recepive cells so his info was suspect from the start stephen
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com wrote hi all would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki thanks i have a receipe at home that was posted to me by one of our fellow netters about a month ago i am recalling this from memory but i think i m fairly close by the way it was great pint of plain yogurt med sized cucumber finely shredded cloves of garlic more or less by taste tsp dill weed the yogurt is dumped into a strainer lined with a coffee filter and allowed to drain at least hours you can adjust the consistancy of the sauce by increasing this time up to hours the shredded cuc is drained the same way mix it all together and let it steep for at least hours it s better the next day and enjoy steve
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge i think i can explain the missing part of a leaf story i have actually seen a reproduction of that particular kirlian photograph in a book compiled by people who were enthusiasts of kirlian photography that particular photograph that s right the effect has been observed only once even the writers of the book were inclined to disbelieve in it i conjecture that the maker of that photograph began by placing a whole leaf between two plates and taking its kirlian photo for his next experiment he cut the leaf in half put one half down between the same two plates and took another k p the missing half effect was created by water oils etc left behind after the first photo this explanation must be tentative because after all i wasn t there when it happened regards chris henrich
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth it is one thing to be open minded about phenomona that have not be demonstrated to be false and quite another to believe in something like krilian photography where all the claimed effects have be demonstrated to be artifacts there is no longer any reason to adopt a wait and see attitude about krilian photography it has been experimentally shown to be nothing but simple coronal discharge the auras shown by missing leaf parts came from moisture left by the original whole leaf for example that s what science is son bill vanhorne
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article rhb e ks europa eng gtefsd com draper gnd wtp gtefsd com pam draper says this homeopathic remedies i tried the dander one for a month drops three times a day i didn t notice any change whats so ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed a difference it is not a homeopathic remedy improvement began in a few months i am allergic to bermuda grass and if anyone nearby was mowing a lawn my nose would start to run now i can walk right by and it doesn t bother me at all the same success with desert ragweed bruce long
sci.med	re food related seizures michael covington mcovingt aisun ai uga edu wrote how about contaminants on the corn e g aflatoxin little alflatoxin on commercial cereal products and certainly wouldn t cause seizures david ozonoff md mph boston university school of public health dozonoff med itvax bu edu east concord st t c boston ma
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rk miinnkju usenet pa dec com stark dwovax enet dec com todd i stark writes yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this is true but it s not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful in their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect you can also replicate the effect with a rock take your first kirlian photograph then moisten one edge of the rock lo and behold phantom rock carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	mevicore vs lopid vs i used to be on lopid it did a good job of reducing cholesterol down to around as well as ldl and triglycerides then i got pneumonia and for some reason the lopid stopped working very well cholesterol and triglycerides soared the levels might have stabilized over time but a new doctor had me quit wait a month then switch to mevicore on mevicore my total cholesterol was down to ldl was and hdl was but the trig s were still very high around and my liver tests came back slightly abnormal sgot n ggtp hard to read copy n he said the liver numbers were not offbase enough to cause him concern and the triglycerides are not as important as the cholesterol figures he had me stop the mevicore to allow the liver to heal just to be extra cautious though i m sure it s not a problem and wants me to go back on it after that i suggested maybe lopid might be the better choice and he said that he wouldn t object if that s what i want to do but lopid has one particular side effect i m not fond of should the above liver and trig figures be feared what happens to folks with high trig levels is my liver in danger with the above results would i be better off on lopid despite its inconvenient side effect or perhaps some other drug niacin affected my liver too
sci.med	experts on edward jenner look i am a student from san leandro high school i am doing a research project for physics and i would like information on edward jenner and the vaccination for small pox any information at all would be greatly apprectiated thank you
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge this effect disappears if you clean your apparatus after you kirlianed the whole leaf and before kirlianing the leaf part thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don t even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn t tell them
sci.med	med school admission continued hi all i got several emails and a couple news replies and i guess i shoulda went into more detail being my anxiety level is peaking and you folks have no clue who i am i may as well post the specifics and see what you people think regarding my previous post to recap i applied to schools total of which were md and do as it stands now i have had rejects interviews md and do the results of which are waiting lists md and one do schools i heard nothing from at all i have contacted all institutions other than the rejects and they have no info whatsoever to tell me i have taken a good mix to apply to top schools a bunch of middles and a few safety funny that most of my safety schools were the first to reject me my index is at like a mcats were r p b wq and r p b wr i couldnt get the damn reading score up i never stuff like art history politics etc ive done medical research at the undergrad level done clinical lab work for years now but unfortunately i have no patient contact experience i cant think of what else i left out but thats the summary what percent of people are usually called from the waiting lists on an average i felt that my interviews went quite well yet i dont have a firm acceptance in my hand anyone have any suggestions as to calm the mailbox anxiety if you premeds out there or med students have any questions or comments for me feel free to send them down typing is a form of anti anxiety thereapy hehehehe felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re med school john carey jcarey news weeg uiowa edu wrote actually i am entering vet school next year but the question is relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been my strong point academically since this is a major portion of medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization i am a little concerned as i am sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type of memorization i have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking up little stories to associate unrelated things but i have never applied them to large amounts of data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems or cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being an older student who returned to school this year organization another one of my weak points has been a major help to my success please no griping about how all you have to do is learn the material conceptually i have no problem with that it is one of my strong points but you can t get around the fact that much of medicine is rote memorization thanks for your help the only suggestion i can think of off the top of my head is get a large supply of index cards and memorize small amounts of info at a time making flash cards and quesitons everytime i get a question wrong i always manage to get the damn thing right the next time felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re a good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg cb att com wrote hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located on the upper east side of manhattan if you want their address and phone let me know i ll get them i dont know them off hand for those who are interested the hospitals i was referring to are the hospital for special surgery east th street new york ny physician referral service info the hospital for joint diseases east th street new york ny felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes i get tired of people saying don t eat x because it s bad well x may not be bad for everyone and even if it is so what give people all the information but don t ram your decisions down their throats it is evident you did not read my post carefully i wasn t trying to tell you not to eat msg products and produce nor was i arguing for or against msg i was simply questioning the logic of your statement that simply because a one is not allergic to something and b likes eating that it follows that one could keep eating whatever it is in my post i had clearly said that i don t know enough about msg the statement don t eat x because its bad is just your interpretation of nutritional info out there prakash das
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg you re confused you are talking about kirilian photography bill is talking krillean photography tad ssc com if it bounces use mcimail com tad cook packet amateur radio home phone seattle wa kt h n duo wa usa na
sci.med	copper bracelet sabona by dr john sorenson i have seen copper bracelet by the name of sabona created by dr john sorenson i am looking for literature on the effectiveness of copper bracelet in dealing with arthritis i know in one case a year old person developed bruise at the base of her left thumb after wearing the copper bracelet on her left wrist for several months she was told the bruise is normal and would disappear is the bruise reason to be concerned should the person discontinued wearing the copper bracelet could anyone kindly point me to literature on copper bracelet what are the other information on copper bracelet your response would be very much appreciated thank you lau hon wah
sci.med	centi and milli pedes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca
sci.med	re krillean photography very good
sci.med	schatzki ring pvc s can anybody out there provide me with any advice concerning the following two health problems first i was recently diagnosed using a ugi series as having a schatzki ring and small sliding hiatal hernia as i understand it the hernia is a relatively minor problem though i do occasionally have some nasty heartburn that is probably related to it the schatzki ring on the other hand is causing swallowing difficulty in particular if i m not careful about eating slowly and thoroughly chewing food food occasionally gets stuck before reaching my stomach this results in a period of painful spasms as the food attempts to pass the obstruction fortunately the food has always managed to pass but this is annoying and causes frequent discomfort my doctor wants to dilate the ring using the following procedure use an endoscope to examine the esophagus and stomach for any inflammation then cut through the ring and dilate it by passing some kind of balloon or something thru the esophagous i would like to know if anyone out there has had this or a similar procedure done if so was it painful successful etc also can anyone comment on safety advisability and success rate of this procedure has it become a common procedure i am kind of leery of having such an invasive sounding procedure performed for a currently non threatening condition such as this especially considering the possible side effects bleeding perforation reaction to anesthesia the second issue for the past years i have had a large number of extra heartbeats in particular during the past month or so there has been a dramatic increase a holter monitor recently showed pvc s in hrs along with a few pac s many days there are far more than this however five to ten per hour all of them were isolated and the cardiologist indicated that such a number was normal it certainly doesn t feel normal in the past there have also been a couple of episodes of extended runs of these beats one of which lasted long enough to cause severe light headedness i am relatively young ish thin and in good health recent bloodtests were all normal and do not smoke use drugs or caffeine etc i m willing to accept the extra beats as normal but don t want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom the number of pvc s seems to increase throughout the day and with exercise or something as simple as climbing some stairs also if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while i tend to get a couple of extra beats could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems both seemed to develop at about the same time thanks for any help advice
sci.med	miscelaneous soon to have baby questions we re about to have our first baby and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction reguarding having a baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all we ve heard is its up to the parents how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water we ve heard stories of infection etc how about after the water has broken rmccown world std com old macdonald had an agricultural real estate tax abatement
sci.med	re kidney stones a student told me today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones a cyst on one kidney and a kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor s appointment at her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty x rays were made of her kidney when she asked why so many x rays were being made she was told by a technician that they need to see the area from different views but she says that about five x rays were made from each angle she couldn t help feeling that something must be wrong with the procedure or something she is a pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening if someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she is told that thre are surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so it is now april she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids but she has to go to classes she wonders why they have given her no medicine she plans to call back her doctor s office clinic and try to get answers to these questions but i told her i would also write in to sci med and see what i could find out about why there were so many x rays and whether it seems o k to wait in line or more months for surgery for something like this or whether she should be looking elsewhere for her care she does plan to get a second opinion too i will pass info on to her it never hurts to get information from more than one source you can e mail me or post thanks alice
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on no dice as soon as the sperm cells hit the water they would virtually explode the inside of the cell is hypertonic and since the membrane is semipermeable water would rush in and cause the cell to burst kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	new method for diagnosing alzheimer s disease discovered here is a press release from huntington medical research institutes new method for diagnosing alzheimer s disease discovered at huntington medical research institutes results to be reported to national desk health writer contact john lockhart or belinda gerber or for the huntington medical research institutes los angeles april a new method for diagnosing and measuring chemical imbalances in the brain which lead to alzheimer s disease and other dementias has been discovered by researchers at the huntington medical research institutes hmri in pasadena calif results of their research will be reported in the may issue of the scientific journal radiology using an advanced form of magnetic resonance imaging mri called magnetic resonance spectroscopy mrs a research team led by brian d ross m d d phil conducted a study on elderly patients who were believed to be suffering from some form of dementia the exams used standard mri equipment fitted with special software developed at hmri called clinical proton mrs clinical proton mrs is easily applied giving doctors confirmatory diagnoses in less than minutes an automated version of clinical proton mrs called proton brain examination probe reduces the examination time yet further providing confirmatory diagnoses in less than minutes by comparison the current standard of care in testing for alzheimer s disease calls for lengthy memory function and neuropsychological tests which can be very upsetting to the patient are not definitive and can only be confirmed by autopsy in addition to alzheimer s disease the new clinical proton mrs exam may have applications in diagnosing other dementias including aids related dementia parkinson s disease and huntington s disease we ve developed a simple test which can be administered quickly and relatively inexpensively using existing mri equipment fitted with either the mrs or probe software said dr ross adding this will help physicians to diagnose alzheimer s earlier and intervene with therapeutics before the progression of the disease causes further damage to the delicate inner workings of the brain dr ross and his hmri team measured a family of chemicals in the brain known as inositols and myo inositol mi acted as a marker in the study in comparison to healthy patients those diagnosed with alzheimer s showed a percent increase in mi while their level of another chemical called n acetylaspartate naa was significantly lower indicating a loss of brain stimulating neurons believed to be associated with the progression of the disease current drug therapy for alzheimer s disease is widely considered to be inadequate this is attributable dr ross believes to the theory that alzheimer s is caused by an interruption in the transmission of the chemical acetylcholine to the nerve cells this belief has been adhered to over the last years and consequently most drugs to treat alzheimer s were based on the changing receptors for acetylcholine physicians have a real need for a test to differentiate alzheimer s from other dementias to provide the patient and his or her family with a firm diagnosis and to monitor future treatment protocols for the treatment of this disease for this reason we consider this test a major advancement in medicine said bruce miller m d a noted neurologist at harbor ucla mrs researcher and a co author of the study other members of the hmri research team included rex a moats ph d truda shonk b s thomas ernst ph d and suzanne woolley r n the probe software can be fitted on the approximately general electric mri units currently in use in the united states and will be configured for other manufacturers mri units soon for interviews with dr ross advance copies of the radiology may issue and other information please contact john lockhart or belinda gerber for hmri at or q a on alzheimer s disease what is alzheimer s disease and how is it caused alzheimer s disease ad is an incurable degenerative disease of the brain first described in by the german neuropathologist alois alzheimer as the disease progresses it leads to loss of memory and mental functioning followed by changes in personality loss of control of bodily functions and eventually death how many people does it affect alzheimer s disease affects an estimated million adults in the united states and is the fourth leading cause of death taking approximately lives each year while alzheimer s debilitates its victims it is equally devastating both emotionally and financially for patients families ad is the most common cause of dementia in adults symptoms worsen every year and death usually occurs within years of initial onset what are its signs and symptoms although the cause of ad is not known two risk factors have been identified advanced age and genetic predisposition the risk of developing ad is less than one percent before the age of yars old but increases steeply in each successive decade of life to reach percent by the age of in patients with familial ad immediate family relatives have a percent chance of developing ad one of its first symptoms is severe forgetfulness caused by short term memory loss dr herman weinreb of the school of medicine at new york university says whether forgetfulness is a serious symptom or not is largely a matter of degree and suggests the following criteria forgetting the name of someone you see infrequently is normal forgetting the name of a loved one is serious forgetting where you left your keys is normal forgetting how to get home is serious doctors suggest that people with severe symptoms should be evaluated in order to rule out alzheimer s disease and other forms of dementia canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	results of gusto heart attack study to be released friday here is a press release from medical science communications results of gusto heart attack study to be released friday to assignment desk medical writer contact jim augustine of medical science communication or steve hull or tracy furey or april or j w marriott news advisory results of the largest heart attack study ever undertaken the global utilization of streptokinase and t pa for occluded coronary arteries trial gusto will be presented friday april at the clinical research meeting a press conference will be held at p m gusto evaluates the most aggressive emergency room treatment strategies available to clear blocked heart arteries and restore blood flow to the heart a process called thrombolysis the thrombolytic strategies compared in gusto use powerful drugs to break up blood clots in heart vessels quickly and prevent clots from recurring these strategies have never been compared directly in a large scale clinical trial until gusto the results are expected to have an important impact on heart attack treatment worldwide the press conference will be held at two locations live at the national press club main lounge th floor th st n w washington d c and via satellite at the hotel macklowe w th street th floor new york city between broadway and th avenue gusto results will be presented by eric topol m d gusto study chairman professor and chairman of the department of cardiology at the cleveland clinic foundation robert califf m d clinical director gusto coordinating center and associate professor of medicine at duke university medical center and allan ross m d coordinator of the gusto angiographic substudy and professor and director of the division of cardiology at the george washington university medical center editorial notes attention television the press conference may be viewed in its entirety via satellite starting at p m edt c band telestar transponder v dual audio or kusbs transponder following the press conference there will be a news package and b roll feed camera ready illustrations also will be available at the press conference telephone hook up to the press conference is planned availability is limited please call mcs for more information for reporters who will be at the sheraton washington attending the clinical research meeting on friday morning minibus transportation will be provided to the press conference the bus will depart at p m it also will be available for return to the sheraton after the press conference for more information contact steve hull or tracy furey of mcs for the gusto study group at or at the j w marriott april to april at or for more information about the clinical research meeting contact jim augustine of medical science communications at canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	need prozac info i m looking for information regarding dosages of prozac used in minor depression also any other information regarding the drug is helpful please send responses direct thanks rrome nyx cs du edu
sci.med	sheep in cardiac research dear news readers is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing or defibrillation i would like to hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email me andrewm iris bio uts edu au andrew mears h crc for cardiac technology uts w westbourne st gore hill f n s w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
sci.med	re strain gage applications in vivo in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance j dishongh writes greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu it sounds as though you might want to try a product such as super glue the active ingredient is cynoacrylate the same compound used to reconstruct bones i have successfully used superglue for a number of procedures on many different species of animal if you are simply trying to adhear something to bone for several months this would be ideal it bonds almost immediatly is resistant to infection and is non irritating to surrounding tissue phil bowman manager lab animal resources university of montana missoula mt larpjb selway umt edu wg phil bowman manager laboratory animal resources
sci.med	re urine analysis in article rm bn kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found you could do what i do never go near the stuff michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	sheep models in cardiology dear news readers is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing or defibrillation i would like to hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email me andrew mears h crc for cardiac technology uts w westbourne st gore hill f n s w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
sci.med	cortisone shots i need some information on the implications of receiving cortisone shots for a seasonal allergic condition i ve had the usual skin prick tests for the common allergies but reacted to none of the substances so for the last two seasons i ve received cortisone shots but the doctors seem reluctant to give more than two or three shots why what are the dangers
sci.med	re looking for info on kemotherapy p kinda long in article rjpu innmij shelley u washington edu kryan stein u washington edu kerry ryan writes hello a friend is under going kemotherapy sp for breast cancer i m trying to learn what i can about it any info would be appreciated thanks you ve asked a toughie of a question there are many different drugs which are used for chemotherapy the overall purpose of chemotherapy don t worry about the spelling some of these crazy medical words are impossible to spell is to either destroy cancer cells or to keep them from growing different drugs have different effects on cancer cells and therefore it is not uncommon to use more than one drug at a time some chemotherapeutic drugs are effective anytime during the growth cycle of a cell others work only at specific times during the cell cycle the first phase of the cell cycle is g it is when the protein synthesis and rna systhesis occurs in the second phase s synthesis of dna occurs the third phase is g the dna splits and rna and protein are synthesized aagain in the fourth phase m or mitosis the cell may divide there are drugs which are effective in each phase some stop dna synthesis others stop the cell from dividing others wreck protein synthesis at any rate the end result that is being sought is for the cancer cells to stop growing if what you are seeking is practical advice i apologize for rambling on the techno stuff some side effects are pretty common chemo drugs are rather nasty it can cause a person to lose their appetite and to experience nausea and vomiting things to help this include eating small frequent meals it is also suggested that if nausea vomiting hereafter known as n v occurs that the person notify the doctor there are medicines tthat help nausea diarrhea can be an effect antidiarrheal medications can be given and good skincare and fluid intake are important probably the one of biggest concsern is hair loss this does not always happen it depends on what drugs are being given and on the person themself different people taking the same drug can and do have different side effects i have seen some literature which states that wearing a snug headband and or wearing an ice cap can help reduce hair loss presumably by reducing blood flow to the scalp if anyone has seen research on this too i would love to see it and possibly some bib data i highly recommend making contact with the american cancer society they have a vast selection of literature and information in addition if your friend has had a mastectomy i highly recommend reach for recovery it is a support group comprised entirely of women who have lost a breast because of cancer they can offer some excellent support and suggestions if you have further questions please send me e mail i hav some good access to information and i enjoy trying to help other people i wish the best to you and your friend
sci.med	hives my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy my son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been to a skin specialist but he has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit as though by trial and error anti histamines worked on both of them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road singapore
sci.med	re miscelaneous soon to have baby questions in article c inz world std com rmccown world std com bob mccown writes we re about to have our first baby and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction reguarding having a baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all we ve heard is its up to the parents unfortonately that truly is about the best summation of the research that there is advantages stated of circumcison included probably prevention of penile cancer which interestingly occurs mostly in men whose personal hygiene is exceptionally poor simplicity of personal hygiene prevention of urinary tract infections and prevention of a unretractible foreskin disadvantages include infection from the procedure pain etc i apologize i am trying to pull this off the top of my head i will post what i discovered in research i did a paper on the topic in my research class in nursing school it really is a decision that is up to the parents some parents use the reasoning that they will look like daddy and like their friends as justification there is nothing wrong with this just be sure it is what you want to do since it is rather difficult to uncircumcise a male although a major surgical procedure exists how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water we ve heard stories of infection etc how about after the water has broken as long as your membranes have not broken and you have not had any problems with your pregnancy it should be ok to sit in a tub of water however i would recommend using your own bathtub in your own home it is nearly impossible to guarantee the cleanliness and safety of public hot tubs a nice warm bath can be very relaxing especially if your back is killing you and it would possibly be advisable to avoid bubble bath soap esp if you are prone to yeast infection hope these tips help you some elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	kidney stones banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes b medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there b has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is b kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been b done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the b intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of b medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong b increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty i personally wouldn t be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel first of all i would want to know who sponsored that study i have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines to tv guide with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one s calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn t say that it only claimed that most kidney stones are large ly calcium perhaps it won t be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong it wouldn t be the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are in my opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention of kidney stones i for one will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one s diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type and they definitely won t include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people s chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton a stone on the ground is better than a stone in the body rosereader p entered at rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re umbilical hernia in article apr shannon ee wits ac za gary concave cs wits ac za gary taylor writes could anyone give me information on umbilical hernias the patient is over weight and has a protruding hernia surgery may be risky due to the obesity what other remedies could i try unless the patient has a very short life expectancy the possible complications from a hernia that hasn t been repaired far outweigh the risks of surgery the risks of surgery anyway are minimal unless they are exceedingly large hernias can be fixed under local anesthesia don t forget that hernias are one the leading causes of small bowel obstruction and the smaller the hernia is the higher the chances that a loop of bowel will become incarcerated or strangulated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction i am currently in the throes of a hay fever attack so who certainly never reads usenet let alone sci med said quite spontaneously there are a lot of mushrooms and toadstools out on the lawn at the moment sure that s not your problem well who knows or maybe it s the sourdough bread i bake after reading learned semi learned possibly ignorant and downright ludicrous stuff in this thread i am about ready to believe anything if the hayfever gets any worse maybe i will cook those toadstools the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill wellington new zealand
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier writes i am interested in trying this desensitization method against hay fever what is the state of affairs about this i went to a doctor and paid for a minute interview scratches leading to the diagnostic that i am allergic to june and timothy grass i believe this from now on it looks like shots per week for months followed by shot per month or so each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system i would call that a racket we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor s office apart from this issue i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever is that right thanks for information go to your public library and get the february issue of consumer reports an article on allergy shots begins on page this article is must reading for anyone contemplating allergy shots
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article badboyc t z fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer toner of laser printers what chemical stuff is involved thanks in advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg de
sci.med	re strain gage applications in vivo in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance j dishongh writes greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance there is a good article entitled a long term in vivo bone strain measurement device journal of investigative surgery by szivek ja magee fp i think you can find some others by searching medline partap s khalsa ms dc faco post doc research fellow u mass med school
sci.med	re feverfew for migraines in article ltrdroinnltf exodus eng sun com brenda bookhouse eng sun com brenda bowden writes does anyone know about these studies or have experience with feverfew i m skeptical but open to trying it if i can find out more about this what is feverfew and how much would you take to prevent migraines if this is a good idea that is are there any known risks or side effects of feverfew thanks in advance for any info brenda i ve tried it and so has one friend of mine no known side effects or risks it didn t seem to work for us but several studies now have suggested it does work for many people so i think it s worth a try you can find it in capsule form at health food stores up to six capsules a day was recommended if i remember correctly it can also be prepared as a tea good luck john
sci.med	urine analysis someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found if you know this information please email me directly thank you kindly for your support randy
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes in article badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life actually severe headaches due to stopped up sinuses plugged ostia are possible and sinus surgery which widens the ostia from the normal mm to about mm should relieve this there are non surgical ways however to keep the ostia open however in a few individuals their ostia are naturally very small and dr ivker s book talks about this the underlying cause of chronic sinusitis is not cured by this kind of sinus surgery though about asthma that s a little more controversial dr ivker in his book sinus survival speculates and says it s not proven that many cases of asthma are triggered by chronic sinusitis due to the excessive drainage postnasal drip from the sinuses he s had many patients who ve found relief from asthma when the chronic sinusitis is reduced or eliminated not clinical proof but compelling anecdotal information of this speculation before doing any sinus surgery first get the book it discusses surgery as well as a good non surgical treatment program for chronic sinusitis jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re what s the origin of stat in article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes the term stat is used not only in medicine but is a commonly used indicator that something is urgent does anyone know where it came from my dictionary was not helpful from the word statim latin i think meaning immediately howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition no doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers i m rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature in the accepted academic scientific journals so the righteous among them will no doubt jump on that also insofar as it doesn t conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn t matter what you eat and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will no doubt jump on that too then there ll be the ones who call your doctor a raving quack even though he like linus pauling is lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that he shouldn t charge for his equipment and supplies since they re no doubt not approved by the fda of course with fda approval an md or pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments as thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared to step into the sacred turf of net medical discussion without a credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you as a fool but maybe somebody without such a huge chip on their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses by e mail oh yes i did have a point a few years ago an md with a thriving practice in a very wealthy part of silicon valley once recommended that i take such treatments to clear up a skin condition not through his office i might add although i m sure that s not conclusive it was sure an unusual prescription r
sci.med	re kidney stones in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes a student told me today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones a cyst on one kidney and a kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor s appointment at her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty x rays were made of her kidney when she asked why so many x rays were being made she was told by a technician that they need to see the area from different views but she says that about five x rays were made from each angle she couldn t help feeling that something must be wrong with the procedure or something she is a pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening if someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she is told that thre are surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so it is now april she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids but she has to go to classes she wonders why they have given her no medicine she plans to call back her doctor s office clinic and try to get answers to these questions but i told her i would also write in to sci med and see what i could find out about why there were so many x rays and whether it seems o k to wait in line or more months for surgery for something like this or whether she should be looking elsewhere for her care she does plan to get a second opinion too i will pass info on to her it never hurts to get information from more than one source you can e mail me or post thanks alice my opinion for what it s worth is that x rays is way too many guidleines have been set on the number of dental x rays and chest x rays that one should have over a given period of time because of all the environmental factors that can cause cancer in humans ionizing radiation is one of the most potent splits dna and causes hydroxyl free radical formation in tissue cells ultasound like that used in seeing the fetus in the uterus has been shown to be extremely good at picking up tumors in the prostate and gallstones in the gallbladder but kidney tissue may be too dense for ultrasound to work for kidney stones any radiologists care to comment most stones will pass but it s a very painful process unlike gallstones i don t think that there are many drugs that can help dissolve the kidney stone which is probably calcium oxalate vitamin c and magnesium have worked in rabbits to remove calcium from calcified plaques in the aterial wall i have no idea if a diet change or supplementation could speed up the process of kidney stone passage but i m pretty confident that a diet change and or supplementation can prevent a reoccurance if surgery is being contemplated the stone must be in the kidney tubule a second opinion is a good idea because there are better less damaging ways to break up the stone if it s logged within the kidney sonic blasts hmo s are notorious for conservative care and long waits for expensvie treatments my condolences to your friend marty b
sci.med	earwax what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked stephen
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis i don t think there is a general distinction rather there are two classes of chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis i can t think of any other disease where the term persistent is used with or in preference to chronic much as these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions is often fairly fuzzy as well david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	old sermon was krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth flame off or end sermon we know that sermon it is posted roughly every month or so by different persons and that doesn t make it any better how did you get the idea that skeptics are closed minded why don t you consider the possibility that they came to their conclusions by the proper methods besides one can come to a conclusion without closing one s mind to other possibilities i you don t agree with a person please ask him why he thinks like that instead of insulting him perhaps he s right follow your own advice be open minded if you don t post a bit of evidence for your claims i ll complain that it s always those neither a real believer nor a disbeliever types who narrow mindedly judge others without knowing their motives thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don t even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn t tell them
sci.med	re allergic reactions against laser printers in sci med rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer toner of laser printers what chemical stuff is involved thanks in advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg de do i ever after years of having health problems that had been cleared up w allery shots and not knowing why i went and was re tested i actually did better than when i had been tested years ago then putting together i realized that it all started back up when the laser printer came into the office i kept track of the usage and on hi use days i was worse i got better over the weekends the laser printer is gone i m better whether it is the toner dust or chemicals i dont know i am highly allergic to dust but it definitely was the laser printer brenda peters carderock div nswc david taylor model basin bethesda md e mail cape dtvms dt navy mil or bpeters oasys dt navy mil
sci.med	vitamin b doses forgive me but just the other day i read on some newsgroup or other a physician s posting about the theraputic uses of vitamin b i can t seem to locate the article but i recall there was mention of some safe limits i looked at a balanced time release formulation from walgreen s and noted that the mg of b was some thousands times the rda is this safe also what was the condition that b was theraputic for mail would be just fine if you don t want to clog the net thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c fum b news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article mmeyer apr m dseg ti com mmeyer m dseg ti com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian i think it was a typo for karelian photography which is the practice of taking pictures of either finns or russians depending on whom one asks think we can lose the sci image processing group from this thread folks thanks bunches spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
sci.med	chromium as dietary suppliment for weight loss my wife has requested that i poll the sages of usenet to see what is known about the use of chromium in weight control diet suppliments she has seen multiple products advertising it and would like any kind real information my first impulse was yuck a metal but i have zero data on it what do you know henry melton rhca melton sps mot com
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c g j efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis oooooh bad example i m an atheist this is not flame or abuse nor do i want to start another thread this is after all supposed to be about image processing but to say you re an atheist is to suggest you have proof there is no god to be a politically correct skeptic better to go with agnostic like me dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi
sci.med	re schatzki ring pvc s in article apr betsy gsfc nasa gov ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote summarized a person with a schatzki s ring a membrane partially blocking the espphagus has worsening dysphagia difficulty swallowing and the doctor proposes dilation by balloow or bougie using an inflatable balloon to rupture the ring or a rubber hose to push through it question is balloon dilation safe common and indicated it sounds pretty invasive end summary yes this is a common and safe procedure the majority of schatzki s rings described by x ray however wnd up being due to inflammation instead of the congenital schatzki s ring occassionally a cancer masquerades as a ring you should have the endoscopy to see if it is due to the heartburn and if so you will need treatment for the heartburn ong term the balloon dilation is an alternative to cutting open your chest and cutting out a section of the esophagus so dilation is not at all invasive considering the alternative the second issue summarized he has had extra heartbeats for the past to years and once was symptomatic from them with some lightheadedness he is young ish thin and in good health recent bloodtests were all normal and do not smoke use drugs or caffeine etc i m willing to accept the extra beats as normal but don t want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom the number of pvc s seems to increase throughout the day and with exercise or something as simple as climbing some stairs also if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while i tend to get a couple of extra beats could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems both seemed to develop at about the same time i not an expert on heart problems but pvc s are common and have been overtreated in the past my personal experience and i have the same history an build you do related to the heart that is is that my pvc s come and go with some months causing anxiety taking on more fluids seems to help and they seem worse in the summer remember that a slow heart rate will allow more pvc s to be apparent so perhaps it is an indication of a healthy cardiac system but ask an expert about that last point especially good luck hope we don t die of arrhythmias god what a happy thought steve holland
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article apr informix com hartman informix com robert hartman writes in article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition no doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers i m rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature in the accepted academic scientific journals so the righteous among them will no doubt jump on that also insofar as it doesn t conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn t matter what you eat and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will no doubt jump on that too then there ll be the ones who call your doctor a raving quack even though he like linus pauling is lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that he shouldn t charge for his equipment and supplies since they re no doubt not approved by the fda of course with fda approval an md or pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments as thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared to step into the sacred turf of net medical discussion without a credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you as a fool but maybe somebody without such a huge chip on their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses by e mail oh yes i did have a point a few years ago an md with a thriving practice in a very wealthy part of silicon valley once recommended that i take such treatments to clear up a skin condition not through his office i might add although i m sure that s not conclusive it was sure an unusual prescription the bacteria in your gut are important but colonic flushes are not the way to improve gut function each person has almost a unique mix of bacteria in his her gut diet affects this mix as does the use of antibiotics a diet change is a much better way to alter the players in your gut than is colonic flushes cross contamination has been a real problem in some of the outfits that do this treatment since the equipment is not always cleaned as well as it should be between patient treatments dental drills have me a little concerned about hiv infection and i ve picked a dentist that uses both chemical and autoclave sterilization of his instruments more clostly but much safer full sterile technique is also used just like that practiced in an or mask gloves and gowns worn and disposed of between patients each visit costs me dollars more than the standard and customary fee so i have to pay it out of pocket his much higher fees do not drive away patients i can not think of any good reason why someone should subject themselves to this colonic flush procedure for very little if any benefit you subject yourself to hepatitis cholera parasitic disease and even hiv just ask yourself why someone might resort to this kind of treatment could they be having gi distress could this distress be due to a pathogenic organism could i get this organism if the equipment is not cleaned properly between patients do i really want to take this risk food for thought marty b
sci.med	re hives in article apr nuscc nus sg isckbk nuscc nus sg kiong beng kee wrote my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy my son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been to a skin specialist but he has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit as though by trial and error anti histamines worked on both of them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road singapore food products can get through breast milk and cause allergies in the young since the son is allergic it would be best not to go to bottle feedings but rather eliminate foods from mother s diet your pediatrician should be able to give you a list of foods to avoid good luck steve
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in article castle ed ac uk gtclark festival ed ac uk g t clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g not sure of this but i think some millipedes cause a toxic reaction sting so i would not assume that they are not dangerous merely on the basis of vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor how about going to a doctor to get some minor surgery done doctor refuses to do it because it s to risky still charges me i go home and do it myself no problem the surgery involved digging out a pine needle that had buried itself under my tongue mike
sci.med	re help for kidney stones pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones she says that because she has no medical insurance she cannot get them removed my question is there any way she can treat them herself or at least mitigate their effects any help is deeply appreciated advice referral to literature etc thank you dave carvell pk wvnvms wvnet edu first off i would consider the severity of the pain i had stones several years ago and there s now way i could have made it without heavy duty doses of morphine and demerol and a two week stay in the hospital i was told that there was nothing that i could take that would dissolve them if the stones are passible the best thing she could do is drink lots of water and hope that they pass but every time they move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in jeff silva jeffs sr hp com
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article c zy da utdallas edu kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes in article badboyc t z fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life you probably were trying to be facetious but just for the record partial nasal obstruction is correlated with a number of chronic disorders such as migraine hyperthyroidism asthma peptic ulcer dysmenorrhea and lack of libido riga in rev d oto neuro ophthalmol cardiac symptoms jackson rt annals of otology cvetnic mh cvetnic v rhinology cottle mh rhinology and fever inadequate oral intake and electrolyte imbalance fairbanks dnf otorhinolaryngology head and neck surgery so before you post your inane comments it would be nice if you d run a medline search on the topic say back to there s been extensive literature on this for over a years i may be in cardiology but i ve had a very good working relationship with my colleagues from ent josh backon vms huji ac il
sci.med	re earwax stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked assuming that the wax is causing hearing loss congestion or popping in the ears you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with a bulb syringe but it is awkward to do for oneself and may not work or may even make things worse my wife would disagree she does it successfully every six months or so in any case do not attempt anything with q tips my experience has been that this is initially best handled by a ear nose throat person i say initially because an ent can evaluate whether or not you might have success on your own with a little instruction i am not a physician obviously because i eschew the term otolaryngologist this posting is based only on personal experience usual disclaimer the best is the enemy of the good voltaire leon traister lmtra amdahl uts amdahl com c o amdahl corporation e arques ave m s p o box sunnyvale ca
sci.med	strain gage applications in vivo greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu
sci.med	great canadian scientists about two years ago i posted the following i am planning to write a new book called great canadian scientists please forward your nominations to me shell cs sfu ca the rules are that the person must be a canadian citizen they don t have to be born in canada or even live in canada but they must have or have had if they are dead canadian citizenship while they are were great canadian scientists about people have been nominated already and they are listed at the end of this posting i m not quite sure what should constitute greatness and there may be a gray area here if you have any ideas on criteria for greatness i would be pleased to hear them in any event please nominate people even if you are not sure they are great i would like as big a list as possible please give me a name and email address phone number or mail address so that i can contact the person if you don t know any of the above then give me their last known whereabouts also please give your reason for why you think the person should be considered a great canadian scientist after i have the list i will choose about six of the most interesting ones and do in depth biographies of those individuals in the style of tracy kidder s soul of a new machine or some other dramatic technique the rest of the great canadian scientists will appear in an appedix with one paragraph biographies if you have any other ideas about this project i am interested to hear them so far i have received nominations as follows first name last name nominator famous for sid altman kuszewski john catalytic rna nobel chem frederick banting me insulin nobel u medicine davidson black stanley robert discovered peking man james r bolton warden joseph chemistry raoul bott smith steven math algebraic topology willard boyle chamm craig co inventor of ccd gerard bull stanley robert ballistics and gunnery dennis chitty galindo leal carlos first animal ecologist brian c conway tellefsen karen electrochemistry stephen cook mendelzon alberto np completeness complexity copp kuch gerald biochem aspects of physiol h s m coxeter calkin neil j regular polytopes math p n daykin palmer bill chem mosquito repellant h e duckworth anonymous mass spectroscopy admin jack edmonds snoeyink jack math operations research reginald fessenden johnsen hans wire insulation light bulb ursula franklin mckellin william physics archeol materials j a gray gray tom nuclear physics the gray e w guptill chamm craig slotted array radar donald hebb lyons michael learning hebbian synapses gerhard herzberg me optical spectr nobel james hillier me electron microscope can am crawford s holling galindo leal carlos ecology predators and prey david hubel lyons michael visual cortex nobel med kenneth iverson dare gary invented apl j d jackson austern matt elementary particle theory andre joyal pananagden prakash category theory categ logic martin kamen me carbon canadian amer irving kaplansky knighten bob algebra functional analysis george s kell kell dave hot water freezing t e kellogg palmer bill chem mosquito repellant geraldine kenney wallace siegman anthony chemistry administration brian kernaghan brader mark c programming language michael l klein marchi massimo theoretical chemistry charles j krebs galindo leal carlos ecology krebs effect k j laidler tellefsen karen chemical kinetics g c laurence palmer bill physics raymond lemieux smith earl first synthesized glucose martin levine meunier robert computer vision edward s lowry himself computer programming pere marie victorin meunier robert jardin botanique de montreal colin macleod turner steven nobel dna discovery marshall mcluhan clamen stewart social sci communications ben morrison willson david aurora borealis lawrence morley strome murray plate tektonics remote sense farley mowat abbott john northern animal rights kevin ogilvie kendrick kelly genetics cure for herpes sir william osler lyons michael medicine p j e peebles vishniac ethan most important cosmologist wilder penfield perri marie anatomical basis for memory john polanyi me chemiluminescensce nobel denis poussart meunier robert computer vision anatol rapoport lloyd jones david conflict theory game theory howard rapson sutherland russell pulp chemistry hans selye goel anil k psychology of stress william stephenson wilkins darin ww enigma code wire photo boris stoicheff siegman anthony raman spectroscopy david suzuki meister darren science communication henry taube parker wiley physical chemistry nobel richard taylor manuel john verified quark model nobel david thompson eisler michael mapped western canada endel tulving green christopher psychology of memory bill tutte royle gordon matroid theory math i uchida palmer bill down s syndrome j tuzo wilson collier john continental drift theory r h wright palmer bill chem mosquito repellant j l allen yen leone pasquale vl baseline interferometry walter zinn me breader reactor can amer the list is growing nicely it s amazing to see just how much was discovered by canadians actually there are many more who were born in canada but became americans after graduate school please note a lot of people have nominated alexander graham bell but i feel he was really a scottish american with a summer home in canada now i know this is debatable but please don t nominate him again if anyone can fill in some of the question marks on the list please drop me a line that was two years ago since then i have received a grant from science culture canada a division of supply and services canada to research the book since my old posting the book has evolved into an educational book for kids aged though this may change again it will have about two page spreads with a large graphic in the middle and text graphic boxes all around on the following subjects vital statistics and photo of the scientist personal statement from the scientist narrative of a few moments in the life of the scientist what i was doing when i was so you want to be a insert kind of scientist experiment you can do there will be an appendix with more scientists with one paragraph biographies who didn t quite make it to the double spreads the whole thing will then be published on cd rom with video and sound clips for added richness i am looking for a cd rom publisher as well the text part may also be available on the canarie electronic highway being developed in canada as well i am still looking for a publisher though penguin canada came close to being it hope to find one soon i would like to again ask for more nominations especially in the pure sciences of physics chemistry and biology also criticisms of the list are welcomed also women and french canadian scientists are needed i hope this posting will get others to nominate more great canadian scientists and to discuss what is great what is canadian and what is scientist please respond to shell sfu ca or barry shell quebec st vancouver b c v v m canada thanks to all who responded already
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth with counterflame enabled columbus was indeed a crank but not in the manner you think the fact that the world was round was well known when he set sail it was also well known that the circumference was about k miles and that you could not reach asia bo going west with current technology you would neither be able to carry enough supplies nor get a long enough stretch of good sailing weather nobody thought he would fall off the edge of the world instead they expected him to die at sea columbus thought for no good reason that the circumference was only k miles making the trip practical unfortunately for columbus and his shipmates the earth s circumference is indeed k miles fortunately for columbus and his shipmates there was a stopping place right about where asia would have been had the circumference been k miles my source is the recent pbs series on columbus flame off or end sermon alex
sci.med	med school actually i am entering vet school next year but the question is relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been my strong point academically since this is a major portion of medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization i am a little concerned as i am sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type of memorization i have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking up little stories to associate unrelated things but i have never applied them to large amounts of data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems or cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being an older student who returned to school this year organization another one of my weak points has been a major help to my success please no griping about how all you have to do is learn the material conceptually i have no problem with that it is one of my strong points but you can t get around the fact that much of medicine is rote memorization thanks for your help
sci.med	epilepsy and video games there have been a few postings in the past on alleged pathological esp neurological conditions induced by playing video games e g nintendo apparently there have been reported several cases of photosensitive epilepsy due to the flashing of some patterns and the strong attention of the young players one poster to comp risks reported some action from the british government a quick search in a database reported the following two published references e j hart nintendo epilepsy in new england j of med tk daneshmend et al dark warrior epilepsy bmj i would appreciate if someone could post or e mail any reference to preferably published further work on the subject any pointer to other information and or to possible technical tools if any for reducing the risks are appreciated many thanks antonella d alessandro pisa italy
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes in article castle ed ac uk gtclark festival ed ac uk g t clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g not sure of this but i think some millipedes cause a toxic reaction sting so i would not assume that they are not dangerous merely on the basis of vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc as a child i can remember picking up a centipede and getting a rather painful sting but it quickly subsided much less painful compared to a bee sting centipedes have a poison claw one of the front feet to stun their prey but in my single experience it did not have a lot of bite to it a
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article frk ym vp apxl q andrew cmu edu gabriel d underwood gabe cmu edu writes i heard a great civil war story a guy on the battlfield is shot in the groin the bullet continues on it s path and lodges in the abdomen of a female spectator lo and behold as the legend goes both parents survived married and raised the child who turned out to be a real son of a gun
sci.med	re depression i do believe that depression can have a dietary component depression can also have various chemical environmental components i noticed that i became depressed in various buildings and at home when the air conditioning was on subsequent testing revealed that i was allergic to stemphyllium a mold commonly found in air conditioners after i began taking antigens that problem disappeared bruce l
sci.med	re allergic reactions against laser printers laser printers often emit ozone which smells sort of like clorox adequate ventilation is recommended michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article c ij iua srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com jeff silva writes pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in one more reason for men to learn the lamaze breathing techniques in order to be able to get some pain reduction instantly wherever you are michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re help for kidney stones as i recall from my bout with kidney stones there isn t any medication that can do anything about them except relieve the pain either they pass or they have to be broken up with sound or they have to be extracted surgically when i was in the x ray tech happened to mention that she d had kidney stones and children and the childbirth hurt less demerol worked although i nearly got arrested on my way home when i barfed all over the police car parked just outside the er brian
sci.med	depression some of the md s in this newsgroup have been riding my butt pretty good maybe in some cases with good reason in this post on depression i m laying it all out i ll continue to post here because i think that i have some knowledge that could be useful once you have read this post you should know where i m coming from when i post again in the future in article netnews upenn edu lchaplyn mail sas upenn edu lida chaplynsky writes a family member of mine is suffering from a severe depression brought on by menopause as well as a mental break down she is being treated with halydol with some success but the treatments being provided through her psychiatrist are not satisfactory someone suggested contacting a nutritionist to discuss alternative treatment since she is sensitive to medication i think this is a good suggestion but don t know where to begin if anyone can suggest a philly area nutritionist or else some literature to read i d appreciate it lida i can emphasize with your situation both my wife and i suffered from bouts of depression her s was brought on by breast cancer and mine was a rebound stress reaction to her modified radical mastectomy and chemotherapy lida i used my knowledge of nutrition to get her through her six months of chemotherapy with the approval of her oncologist when severe depression set in a few months after the chemo stopped i tried to use supplements to bring her out of it i had cured her pms using supplements and i really thought that i knew enough about the role of diet in depression to take care of her depression as well it didn t work and she was put on prozac by her oncologist two winters ago three years after by wife s breast cancer i got hit with severe depression pretty typical and one reason why many marriages break up after breast cancer or another stressor i tried to take care of it for several months with supplementation didn t work my internist ended up putting me on prozac i was going to give you a list of several studies that have been done using b niacin folate and b to cure depression i m not going to do that because all you would be doing is flying blind like i was lida i do believe that depression can have a dietary component but the problem is that you need to know exactly what the problem is and then use an approach which will fix the problem for chemotherapy i knew exactly what drugs were going to be used and exactly what nutrients would be affected same thing for pms i was flying blind for both of these stressors but the literature that i used to devise a treatment program was pretty good depression is just too complicated what you really need is a nutritional scan this is not a diet analysis but an analysis of your bodies nutrient reserves for every vitamin and mineral except vitamin c you have a reserve the rda is not designed to give you enough of any nutrient to keep these reserves full it is only designed to keep them from being emptied which would cause clinical pathology stress will increase your need for many vitamins and minerals this is when your reserves become very important lida without your permission i m going to use your post as a conduit to try to explain to the readers in this group and sci med where i m coming from i have taught a course on human nutrition in one of the osteopathic medical schools for ten years now i ve written my own textbook because none was available what i teach is not a rehash of biochemistry i preach nutrient reserves yes my lectures in this course are referred to by my students as sermons here is what i cover indroduction and carbohydrates lipids proteins i proteins ii energy balance evaluation of nutritional status i a clinical perspective evaluation of nutritional status ii evaluation of nutritional a biochemical perspective status iii homework assignment using the nutritionist iv diet and fitness analysis software program weight control food fads and facts age related change in nutrient requirements food additives contaminants and cancer drug nutrient interactions mineral and water balance sodium potassium and chloride calcium magnesium and phosphorus iron zinc and copper iodine and fluoride other trace minerals vitamin a vitamin e vitamins d and k vitamin c thiamin and niacin riboflavin and pyridoxine pantothenic and folic acids biotin and b other nutrient factors enteral nutrition parenteral nutrition every three years i spend my entire summer reviewing the medical literature to find material that i can use in my nutrition textbook i last did this in the summer of i read everything that i can find and then sit down and rewrite my lecture handouts which are bound in three separate books that have and pages opposite each page of written text which i write myself i ve pulled figures tables and graphs from various copyrighted sources since this material is only being used for educational purposes i can get around the copyright laws so far i can not send this material out to newsgroup readers as i ve been asked to do i am now in the process of trying to get a grant to setup a nutrition assessment lab this is the last peice of the nutrition puzzle that i need to make my education program complete this lab will let me measure the nutrient reserve for almost all the vitamins and minerals that are known to be required in humans the mayo clinic already uses a similiar lab to design supplement programs for their cancer patients cancer treatment centers of america which is a private for profit organization with hospitals in illinois and oklahoma tulsa also operates a nutritional assessment clinical lab i also believe that the pritikin clinic in california has a similiar lab setup for physicians reading this post i would suggest that you get the new clinical nutrition textbook that has just been published feb by mosby i have been using alpers manual of nutritional therapeutics a little brown series book as a supplemental text for my course but alpers is geared more to residency training two m d s have written this new clinical nutrition textbook and it is geared more towards medical student education and it does a good job of covering the lab tests that can be run to assess a patient s nutritional status let me quote a few sentences from the preface of this new text so called nutrition specialists were in reality gastroenterologists hematologists or pediatricians who just happened to profess some knowledge of nutrition as it related to their field of practice unfortunately about two thirds of the medical schools in the united states require no formal instruction in nutrition but times and medical practice have changed more than half of the leading causes of death in this country are nutrition related this monograph should accomplish the following two objectives it should complement your medical training by emphasizing the relevance of nutrition to your medical practice and it should heighten your awareness of nutrition as a medical speciality that is vitally important for both disease prevention and the treatment of diseases of essentially every organ system roland l weinsier md drph lida my advise to you is that you tell your family members to try to find a physician who has an understanding of the role that vitamins and minerals yes even magnesium may play a role in depression play in depression and who could get a nutritional profile run menopause is often a time when women suffer depression there are a lot of hormonal changes that are occuring but they are not the same ones that occur during pms a nutritionist may also be able to help not too long ago a poster mentioned that his nutritionist had diagnosed a selenium deficiency based on a red cell glutathionine peroxidase test the specific test for the selenium reserve most clinical labs will not run this test and i advised him to try to make sure that the lab that did the test was certified there are also a lot of hair and nail analysis labs setup to do trace mineral analysis but these labs are not regulated checks of these labs using certified standards and also those doing water lead analysis showed some pretty shoddy testing was going on if you or anyone else finds someone who will run these speciality nutrition tests make sure that they are using a lab that has been certified under clia the clinical laboratory improvement act a diet analysis may be helpful since many nutrient reserves have been shown to correlate fairly well with the dietary intake as monitored by food logging and software analysis nutritionist iv and other software programs but there are still about half of the nutrients required by humans that do not show a very good correlation between apparent dietary intake and reserve status until we have more nutritional assessment clinical labs in operation in the u s and physicians who have been trained how to use the nutritional profile that these labs provide to devise a treatment approach that uses diet changes and supplementation anti depressants will probably continue to be the best approach to depression martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance
sci.med	re earwax hi stephen ear wax is a healthy way to help prevent ear infections both by preventing a barrier and also with some antibiotic properties too much can block the external auditory canal the hole in the outside of the ear and cause some hearing problems it is very simple and safe to remove excess wax on your own or at your physician s office you can take a syringe no needles and fill it with warm water cold can cause fainting and otc hydrogen peroxide then point the ear towards the ceiling about degrees up and insert the tip of the syringe helps to have someone else do this and firmly expell the solution depending on the size of the syringe and the tenacity of the wax this could take several rinses if you place a bowl under the ear to catch the water it will be much drier you can buy a syringe with a special tip at your local pharmacy or just use whatever you may have if wax is old it will be harder and darker you can try adding a few drops of olive oil into the ear during a shower to soften up the wax do this for a couple days then try syringing again it is also safe to point your ear up at the shower head and allow the water to rinse it out good luck heather
sci.med	re kidney stones in article apr rose com ron roth rose com ron roth writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes b medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there b has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is b kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been b done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the b intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of b medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong b increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty i personally wouldn t be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel first of all i would want to know who sponsored that study i have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines to tv guide with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one s calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn t say that it only claimed that most kidney stones are large ly calcium perhaps it won t be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong it wouldn t be the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are in my opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention of kidney stones i for one will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one s diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type and they definitely won t include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people s chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth ron you are absolutely right not all kidney stones have calcium and not all calcium stones are calcium oxalate but the vast majority are calcium oxalate calcium is just one piece of the puzzle i cited that nejm article as a way of pointing out to some of the physicians in this group that conventional wisdom is used in medicine always has been and probably always will be if one uses conventional wisdom there is a chance that you will be wrong as long as the error is not going to cause a lot of damage what s the big deal why call a physician who gives anti fungals to sinus suffers or gi distress patients a quack on the kidney stone problem i d want a mineral profile run in a clinical chemistry lab balance is much more important than the dietary intake of calcium i know that you use an electrical conductance technique to measure mineral balance in the body i know that you don t think that the serum levels for minerals are very useful i agree if i can get a good nutritional assessment lab setup where i can actually measure the tissue reserve for minerals i d like to do a collaborative study with you to see how your technique compares with mine marty b
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots i have just started taking allergy shots a month ago and is still wondering what i am getting into a friend of mine told me that the body change every years whatever that means and i don t need those antibody building allergy shots at all does that make sense to anyone btw can someone summarize what is in the consumer report february article
sci.med	cure for dry skin hi all my skin is very dry in general but the most serious part is located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin i would like to know if there is any cure for this at the supermarkets or pharmacies there are quite a lot of stuffs for dry skins but what to chose thanks in advance for all advices and hints reply by email preferred alex
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in article apr nmt edu msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are the millipede s around here austin have no sting some of the centipedes do the question rebecca snyder asks is much like asking how venomous are snakes one either wants to ask which snake or point to some reference on the many different species of snake similarly there are many different species of millipede and centipede these are different families millipedes have two pairs of legs per body segment while centipedes have but one pair sorry if this information is not useful russell
sci.med	sumatripton spelling i recently heard of some testing of a new migraine drug called sumatripton i have no idea of the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes a chemical that trips neuro transmitters my mother has regular migraines and nothing seems to help does anyone know anything about this new drug is it in a testing phaze or anywhere near approval does it seem to be working any information would help please feel free to e mail rather than take up bandwidth if you prefer thanks in advance rox roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us virtue is a relative term
sci.med	re urine analysis in article c t m fxx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article rm bn kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found you could do what i do never go near the stuff there s always the old switcheroo my brother works at a dialysis clinic they were interviewing candidates for a technician job mainly electronics tech and a urine screen was part of the interview the bathroom was across the hall from a lab one candidate managed to switch his urine sample with one he grabbed from the lab no one was in it at the time most inner city dialysis patients have quite a few medical problems so it was immediately obvious what had happened my brother fleetingly considered telling the candidate i m sorry but you are very ill and need medical attention immediately they offered him another well monitored chance and he declined
sci.med	re krillean photography alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned i